Guild Wars 2

Faux.1937:

Not everyone is GOD at playing every class like you are, most players arnt perfect like you are and take damage and hits, When I do arah I love my guardian and I love my thief, they are bunker builds, if it wasnt for those builds alot of the times we wouldnt have beaten arah.

That just means you’re bad players and you need to be better. It doesn’t mean that the gear itself is worse. You’re using a crutch. You’ll run faster once you let go of it.

Faux.1937:

How many high level fotm you see are full zerk parties? hmm I seen none, they all have some type of toughness or Vit with them yes a warrior or 2 with zerk is normal but guardians or that other warrior, normally not.

All the good ones. Especially since at high level fractals things one/two shot you anyways.

Faux.1937:

Show me a video of Full 5 man zerk teams (with different classes) doing, AC, CM, TA, Arah and 30+ fotm… then I might change my mind to ZERK IS GOD.

Go on youtube. Type [name of dungeon] speedrun. Tada.

By the way, Nikaido and his group did a naked run (weapons/accessories on) of a Twilight Arbor path and they’re a full zerk group.

KOPPER.1458:

“None.

If you are in PVE, go full zerker. If you are in WVW and zerging alot, you use PVT. PVP, well you can use literally any gear as long as it is focused around a certain purpose (tanking, burst, support, etc.)

Celestial is a complete waste of time, and divinity runes are pretty much junk.
"

Sad that this is true. Wish it wasn’kittens

only true if you make it true. There are other viable options, but no one wants to bother. That’s all I’m going to say on that though; to each their own I guess.

ProxyDamage.9826:

Faux.1937:

Not everyone is GOD at playing every class like you are, most players arnt perfect like you are and take damage and hits, When I do arah I love my guardian and I love my thief, they are bunker builds, if it wasnt for those builds alot of the times we wouldnt have beaten arah.

That just means you’re bad players and you need to be better. It doesn’t mean that the gear itself is worse. You’re using a crutch. You’ll run faster once you let go of it.

Faux.1937:

How many high level fotm you see are full zerk parties? hmm I seen none, they all have some type of toughness or Vit with them yes a warrior or 2 with zerk is normal but guardians or that other warrior, normally not.

All the good ones. Especially since at high level fractals things one/two shot you anyways.

Faux.1937:

Show me a video of Full 5 man zerk teams (with different classes) doing, AC, CM, TA, Arah and 30+ fotm… then I might change my mind to ZERK IS GOD.

Go on youtube. Type [name of dungeon] speedrun. Tada.

I dont get 1-2 shot in fotm unless your talking about the bosses “big hit attacks” and if you have a full team of 5 that know the runs perfectly, the mobs and the mobs attacks then yes you can go full zerk, but very very few players in the world have that at there finger tips everytime they want to do a run or dungeon, Im going to stay with my ptv gurdian, i have zerk gear for warrior and thief if I need a zerk, my guardian does amazing things and I dont see it as zerk is better. a few of you feel that way, fine. Im sorry you feel that you can only play zerk and everyone else sucks. There are multi viable builds and gw2 isnt about killing the foe as fast as you can.

I’d say ranger or engineer. They both have access to a high amount of conditions and healing to take advantage of the condition damage and healing stat, which are the hardest to take advantage of. Every class makes use of the rest of the stats easily enough. Also: since they are classes you don’t typically expect to go dungeoning, therefore never allowed in Zerker speed runs, you don’t have to worry about being kicked from those groups for not being decked out in full zerker gear since they would kick you for your class anyway.

Xhyros.1340:

I’d say ranger or engineer. They both have access to a high amount of conditions and healing to take advantage of the condition damage and healing stat, which are the hardest to take advantage of. Every class makes use of the rest of the stats easily enough. Also: since they are classes you don’t typically expect to go dungeoning, therefore never allowed in Zerker speed runs, you don’t have to worry about being kicked from those groups for not being decked out in full zerker gear since they would kick you for your class anyway.

Hmm Im having fun in my KNIGHTS armor.. aka not zerk for engineer but I might try it engineer instead of ele. I just use my engineer for fun anyways, b.c well its a very fun class to play lol.

It makes sense that you need a class to do all the stats well, I just dont know each class that well to know the answer, I now thief and guardian dont like +all stats very much.

ProxyDamage.9826:

That just means you’re bad players and you need to be better. It doesn’t mean that the gear itself is worse. You’re using a crutch. You’ll run faster once you let go of it.

See, you just lose the attention of people by saying things like “you’re bad players”. Bad players? Sheesh. I was trying to listen to your view before you say things like this. Now you will just annoy people. Just because someone doesn’t agree with you that zerker is not ALWAYS the best way to go no questions brooked, doesn’t make them bad. Maybe it makes them better and more versatile, adaptable to more situations. Without the backup of someone with some form of healing, many zerker builds go down quickly. Honestly, if you want a discussion, avoid ticking people off. If you just want to flame, then you’re as bad for this discussion as you think the rest of us are at playing.

CrossedHorse.4261:

ProxyDamage.9826:

That just means you’re bad players and you need to be better. It doesn’t mean that the gear itself is worse. You’re using a crutch. You’ll run faster once you let go of it.

See, you just lose the attention of people by saying things like “you’re bad players”. Bad players? Sheesh. I was trying to listen to your view before you say things like this. Now you will just annoy people. Just because someone doesn’t agree with you that zerker is not ALWAYS the best way to go no questions brooked, doesn’t make them bad. Maybe it makes them better and more versatile, adaptable to more situations. Without the backup of someone with some form of healing, many zerker builds go down quickly. Honestly, if you want a discussion, avoid ticking people off. If you just want to flame, then you’re as bad for this discussion as you think the rest of us are at playing.

I feel the same, and completely agree with everything you just said.

Celestial definitely makes sense on an D/D Ele. If you need some survivability, swapping in some Celestial pieces does this very efficiently as you use all the stats, and as Celestial has about 20% extra stats you do not lose as much DPS doing so as you would dropping in PVT pieces. It is also worth noting the Crit Damage is still very high on Celestial, and as you will often have Fury up you can still make the most of it.

Saying all this, I see no real need for Celestial Armor. I get enough from just the Ascended Jewelry for my D/D Ele build.

My ranger build runs full Celestial is Spvp and Celestial/Rabid in PvE. Works a treat but it’s not exactual your usual build.

CrossedHorse.4261:

ProxyDamage.9826:

That just means you’re bad players and you need to be better. It doesn’t mean that the gear itself is worse. You’re using a crutch. You’ll run faster once you let go of it.

See, you just lose the attention of people by saying things like “you’re bad players”. Bad players? Sheesh. I was trying to listen to your view before you say things like this. Now you will just annoy people. Just because someone doesn’t agree with you that zerker is not ALWAYS the best way to go no questions brooked, doesn’t make them bad. Maybe it makes them better and more versatile, adaptable to more situations. Without the backup of someone with some form of healing, many zerker builds go down quickly. Honestly, if you want a discussion, avoid ticking people off. If you just want to flame, then you’re as bad for this discussion as you think the rest of us are at playing.

I agree a decent team of Zerkers is great, in a perfect world. But how often do you get those perfect teams.

If you PuG a lot you are going to get teams which need someone tough that doesn’t need support, can keep itself up, and can preferably rez under fire. It is also not a bad thing if it’s pumping out boons all over the place, because you can’t rely on the team for them.

I have a Zerker Warrior and Mesmer which I do dungeon with, and with the right Guild team or pre-made they are amazing. But I generally find my bunkery boon Elementalist does so much better in most Pick up Groups.

What about Necromancers? I currently run a power/prec build (yes unusual but I like it) But it wastes alot of the opportunities with conditions. Celestial gear might be good for that no?

Faux.1937:

CrossedHorse.4261:

ProxyDamage.9826:

That just means you’re bad players and you need to be better. It doesn’t mean that the gear itself is worse. You’re using a crutch. You’ll run faster once you let go of it.

See, you just lose the attention of people by saying things like “you’re bad players”. Bad players? Sheesh. I was trying to listen to your view before you say things like this. Now you will just annoy people. Just because someone doesn’t agree with you that zerker is not ALWAYS the best way to go no questions brooked, doesn’t make them bad. Maybe it makes them better and more versatile, adaptable to more situations. Without the backup of someone with some form of healing, many zerker builds go down quickly. Honestly, if you want a discussion, avoid ticking people off. If you just want to flame, then you’re as bad for this discussion as you think the rest of us are at playing.

I feel the same, and completely agree with everything you just said.

Here’s the thing you’re both missing: Like it or not, it’s true. The only reason you wouldn’t go full berserker is if you, or your group, simply aren’t good enough to. That has nothing to do with what’s most efficient.

Is running with crutches better than running without them? Well, if you have a broken leg you kinda have to… But running without crutches is still better.

ProxyDamage.9826:

Faux.1937:

CrossedHorse.4261:

ProxyDamage.9826:

That just means you’re bad players and you need to be better. It doesn’t mean that the gear itself is worse. You’re using a crutch. You’ll run faster once you let go of it.

See, you just lose the attention of people by saying things like “you’re bad players”. Bad players? Sheesh. I was trying to listen to your view before you say things like this. Now you will just annoy people. Just because someone doesn’t agree with you that zerker is not ALWAYS the best way to go no questions brooked, doesn’t make them bad. Maybe it makes them better and more versatile, adaptable to more situations. Without the backup of someone with some form of healing, many zerker builds go down quickly. Honestly, if you want a discussion, avoid ticking people off. If you just want to flame, then you’re as bad for this discussion as you think the rest of us are at playing.

I feel the same, and completely agree with everything you just said.

Here’s the thing you’re both missing: Like it or not, it’s true. The only reason you wouldn’t go full berserker is if you, or your group, simply aren’t good enough to. That has nothing to do with what’s most efficient.

Is running with crutches better than running without them? Well, if you have a broken leg you kinda have to… But running without crutches is still better.

Again, with the “you aren’t good enough to” … um? I, personally, probably am not good enough for most things you consider worthwhile, but I consider myself good enough. I haven’t claimed to be the best player or better than yourself – I’m sure I’m not. But that doesn’t make me BAD, and that is what I object to. And telling people that they’re just bad, with NO evidence to that effect, and when levels of good and bad are SO subjective anyway … efficient doesn’t necessarily mean good, you know? So by all means, say you’re not efficient – even better, say you’re not the MOST efficient. Again, it’s not a case of you are or you aren’t – nothing is that black and white. And I’ll be happy. No, I’m not going to be the most efficient.

But this thread isn’t about efficiency. It’s about viability.

And why would you need to be better than anyone else to run full zerker? You hit dodge and negate all damage. Then you hit so hard you finish an enemy before it can level another attack. Hmm. Yes, efficient, certainly. Good? You haven’t shown me anything that marks out any skill there. If anything, the you’ve specced yourself out so that the build is a crutch in itself. It’s a good build – you don’t necessarily have to be good to play it.

I AM, I am aware, playing devil’s advocate here. I’m not suggesting at all that you’re not a very good player – I’m sure you are. Equally, I’m not saying anyone who runs zerker is bad – many are very good, I’m sure just as many are bad. What I’m trying to point out is that you over simplify EVERYTHING by saying zerker=good/anything else=bad. It’s just NOT true, and that’s what YOU are missing.

I’d rather say someone who plays a less “efficient” class to a completely awe-inspiring level is good, than someone mediocre but who can speed run a dungeon is good.

ProxyDamage.9826:

Faux.1937:

CrossedHorse.4261:

ProxyDamage.9826:

That just means you’re bad players and you need to be better. It doesn’t mean that the gear itself is worse. You’re using a crutch. You’ll run faster once you let go of it.

See, you just lose the attention of people by saying things like “you’re bad players”. Bad players? Sheesh. I was trying to listen to your view before you say things like this. Now you will just annoy people. Just because someone doesn’t agree with you that zerker is not ALWAYS the best way to go no questions brooked, doesn’t make them bad. Maybe it makes them better and more versatile, adaptable to more situations. Without the backup of someone with some form of healing, many zerker builds go down quickly. Honestly, if you want a discussion, avoid ticking people off. If you just want to flame, then you’re as bad for this discussion as you think the rest of us are at playing.

I feel the same, and completely agree with everything you just said.

Here’s the thing you’re both missing: Like it or not, it’s true. The only reason you wouldn’t go full berserker is if you, or your group, simply aren’t good enough to. That has nothing to do with what’s most efficient.

Is running with crutches better than running without them? Well, if you have a broken leg you kinda have to… But running without crutches is still better.

No, they aren’t running with crutches. They are running for fun, for enjoyment.

You are running with blinders. Assuming that anyone running non-cookie cutter is doing it because they must obviously suck, when in many instances its simply not the case. Not everyone plays to simply powerhouse through.

There’s a difference.

Best base starting stats would be warrior, so warrior…

Not everyone is a dungeon speed clearer, so why does it matter what they gear themselfs in?

CrossedHorse.4261:

Again, with the “you aren’t good enough to” … um? I, personally, probably am not good enough for most things you consider worthwhile, but I consider myself good enough.

…uh? What is this I don’t even…

CrossedHorse.4261:

But this thread isn’t about efficiency. It’s about viability.

Viability in the sense of “can you finish content like this” is irrelevant. Everything is viable. People do naked runs kitten . PvE, in the “being able to cross the finish line” sense, is kitten easy.

CrossedHorse.4261:

And why would you need to be better than anyone else to run full zerker? You hit dodge and negate all damage. Then you hit so hard you finish an enemy before it can level another attack. Hmm. Yes, efficient, certainly. Good? You haven’t shown me anything that marks out any skill there. If anything, the you’ve specced yourself out so that the build is a crutch in itself. It’s a good build – you don’t necessarily have to be good to play it.

I think you’re having some sort of comprehension difficulty here…

Again, we’re talking about efficiency. To be the best possible in PvE, to be as efficient as possible, you run full berserker. This has been demonstrated and explained several times now. The only reason to not run full berserker, if you are trying to attain the best possible performance, is if you’re not good enough to run it. If running full berserker is, as you said, “easier”, then there’s absolutely no reason not to if you are trying to improve your performance.

Whether that makes you a more or less skilled player is irrelevant to the question at hand. I guess you could claim that if you run a marathon with lead shoes it shows you’re more skilled than someone running with normal sneakers… Or a masochist. Whichever. Denominations such as those can be awfully fickle.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

No, they aren’t running with crutches. They are running for fun, for enjoyment.

You are running with blinders. Assuming that anyone running non-cookie cutter is doing it because they must obviously suck, when in many instances its simply not the case. Not everyone plays to simply powerhouse through.

There’s a difference.

See above, discussing fun is irrelevant. Fun is subjective. They might be running for fun, but they are running – crippled -for fun . Whether they find it fun or not is irrelevant to the fact that they are gimping themselves.

Which is the point so many of you seem remarkably thick to absorb. “Fun” is a subjective concept. We can’t discuss what’s “fun” because there are no objective parameters. Some people think it’s fun to clear challenges as efficiently as possible, some like to try to clear challenges by gimping themselves as much as possible (e.g.: naked runs). Whatever you prefer is your problem, and completely subjective. What is more efficient however, is factual. Full berserker. If you wanna be efficient you go full berserker. If you don’t care about that go whatever, doesn’t matter, the game is easy enough as is.

I like biking. I like walking and hiking. I hate riding in cars, especially if I’m not driving. I hate buses. But a car is a more efficient method of traveling long distances than a bike, regardless of which I find more fun.

So many ppl not even trying to figure out a good class for +all stats b.c you dont like it or feel you think its crap.

Why dont we talk about “What claases and types of builds are good for +all stats?” instead of just saying “Its crap, go zerk only”

Ok Ok we understand you think zerk is god.. fine, get that out of the way, can we please actually talk about how to use +all stats now? B.c maybe we want to for fun? b.c there is more to fun than killing things super fast.

Aint this the closest thing to PowerPrecisionHealing Guardians?

Would celestial at least be a good combo to mix?

I’ve just received three infractions from this one thread so you’re on your own here Proxy.

Faux.1937:

So many ppl not even trying to figure out a good class for +all stats b.c you dont like it or feel you think its crap.

Why dont we talk about “What claases and types of builds are good for +all stats?” instead of just saying “Its crap, go zerk only”

Ok Ok we understand you think zerk is god.. fine, get that out of the way, can we please actually talk about how to use +all stats now? B.c maybe we want to for fun? b.c there is more to fun than killing things super fast.

Sigh…

“Good” in what way?

“Viable” to finish PvE content? Anything. Doesn’t matter. You can do it naked. The gear is not class-locked so anyone can use it, and you barely need gear to finish PvE content, so it doesn’t matter.

Efficient?

None in PvE.

In PvP: D/D Ele. MAYBE very specific Engineer builds… And that’s a very questionable “maybe”. Nobody else truly benefits from the “scattershot” approach and would be better off with more specific gear tailored to their builds.

I believe this has been posted repeatedly now.

Personally, I run with Celestial/Divinity as a base.

Depending on what I will be doing I’ll switch pieces/sets/skills.
- Fractals @ no zerk
- Dungeons @ maybe 50%/50% (except CoF, it is easy and safe to zerk)
- WvW @ depends. If it is a zerg, don’t zerk. If it is smaller group, zerk or mixed).
- PvE @ zerk
- PvE bosses @ depends but zerk or mixed.

As you can see, it is not being completely fixed on a stat, it is learning your limits. If you think you will be downed a bit then stick to +all stats then add more zerker gear as time and experience grows.

Being efficient is being able to run with as little downtime as possible and with as much damage you can carry.

ProxyDamage.9826:

CrossedHorse.4261:

Again, with the “you aren’t good enough to” … um? I, personally, probably am not good enough for most things you consider worthwhile, but I consider myself good enough.

…uh? What is this I don’t even…

CrossedHorse.4261:

But this thread isn’t about efficiency. It’s about viability.

Viability in the sense of “can you finish content like this” is irrelevant. Everything is viable. People do naked runs kitten . PvE, in the “being able to cross the finish line” sense, is kitten easy.

CrossedHorse.4261:

And why would you need to be better than anyone else to run full zerker? You hit dodge and negate all damage. Then you hit so hard you finish an enemy before it can level another attack. Hmm. Yes, efficient, certainly. Good? You haven’t shown me anything that marks out any skill there. If anything, the you’ve specced yourself out so that the build is a crutch in itself. It’s a good build – you don’t necessarily have to be good to play it.

I think you’re having some sort of comprehension difficulty here…

Again, we’re talking about efficiency. To be the best possible in PvE, to be as efficient as possible, you run full berserker. This has been demonstrated and explained several times now. The only reason to not run full berserker, if you are trying to attain the best possible performance, is if you’re not good enough to run it. If running full berserker is, as you said, “easier”, then there’s absolutely no reason not to if you are trying to improve your performance.

Whether that makes you a more or less skilled player is irrelevant to the question at hand. I guess you could claim that if you run a marathon with lead shoes it shows you’re more skilled than someone running with normal sneakers… Or a masochist. Whichever. Denominations such as those can be awfully fickle.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

No, they aren’t running with crutches. They are running for fun, for enjoyment.

You are running with blinders. Assuming that anyone running non-cookie cutter is doing it because they must obviously suck, when in many instances its simply not the case. Not everyone plays to simply powerhouse through.

There’s a difference.

See above, discussing fun is irrelevant. Fun is subjective. They might be running for fun, but they are running – crippled -for fun . Whether they find it fun or not is irrelevant to the fact that they are gimping themselves.

Which is the point so many of you seem remarkably thick to absorb. “Fun” is a subjective concept. We can’t discuss what’s “fun” because there are no objective parameters. Some people think it’s fun to clear challenges as efficiently as possible, some like to try to clear challenges by gimping themselves as much as possible (e.g.: naked runs). Whatever you prefer is your problem, and completely subjective. What is more efficient however, is factual. Full berserker. If you wanna be efficient you go full berserker. If you don’t care about that go whatever, doesn’t matter, the game is easy enough as is.

I like biking. I like walking and hiking. I hate riding in cars, especially if I’m not driving. I hate buses. But a car is a more efficient method of traveling long distances than a bike, regardless of which I find more fun.

So why get so bent of shape with a gear set, lots of people don’t care, yeah a car is better at travelling long distances, but if I don’t want or need to go long distances, why would I need a car? It’s not like people in cars would care.

ProxyDamage.9826:

Faux.1937:

So many ppl not even trying to figure out a good class for +all stats b.c you dont like it or feel you think its crap.

Why dont we talk about “What claases and types of builds are good for +all stats?” instead of just saying “Its crap, go zerk only”

Ok Ok we understand you think zerk is god.. fine, get that out of the way, can we please actually talk about how to use +all stats now? B.c maybe we want to for fun? b.c there is more to fun than killing things super fast.

Sigh…

“Good” in what way?

“Viable” to finish PvE content? Anything. Doesn’t matter. You can do it naked. The gear is not class-locked so anyone can use it, and you barely need gear to finish PvE content, so it doesn’t matter.

Efficient?

None in PvE.

In PvP: D/D Ele. MAYBE very specific Engineer builds… And that’s a very questionable “maybe”. Nobody else truly benefits from the “scattershot” approach and would be better off with more specific gear tailored to their builds.

I believe this has been posted repeatedly now.

Enough of the “it doesnt matter” because it does matter, yes you can do basic pve with “No gear” but that doesnt mean it is “good” and what I mean by good is, you can do your quests/story/dungeons/fractals and be able to finish it feeling good, not dying all the time, feeling like you actually did something and not something that make you feel better than other players like “I did it with no gear, look at me” but know that your character can handle it and the sense of completion.

If gear didnt matter at all, then no one would be where it, Zerk cof p1 runs wouldnt require gear checks, some parts of dungeons like the 1st boss in TA wouldnt be a dps race and zerk well, zerk wouldnt get a name b.c there would be no one wearing zerk armor they all would laugh and say “you got armor on? well you must suck at this game”.

Lets me real for a minute and actually discus something that could help players make a good fair choice within the means that they want.

ProxyDamage.9826:

See above, discussing fun is irrelevant. Fun is subjective. They might be running for fun, but they are running – crippled -for fun . Whether they find it fun or not is irrelevant to the fact that they are gimping themselves.

Which is the point so many of you seem remarkably thick to absorb. “Fun” is a subjective concept. We can’t discuss what’s “fun” because there are no objective parameters. Some people think it’s fun to clear challenges as efficiently as possible, some like to try to clear challenges by gimping themselves as much as possible (e.g.: naked runs). Whatever you prefer is your problem, and completely subjective. What is more efficient however, is factual. Full berserker. If you wanna be efficient you go full berserker. If you don’t care about that go whatever, doesn’t matter, the game is easy enough as is..

Yes fun is subjective. Its different for everyone.

However, you are assuming that by running something not 100% efficient is gimping them. Just because they aren’t being ‘efficient’ doesn’t mean they are gimp[ed] (wow [g]i[m]p is a senored word? really anet?) in any way. That’s what you seem to be ‘remarkably thick to absorb,’ as you so kindly put it.

For many people, this is a game. Not a job. Efficiency has nothing to do with it. That is not a crutch. That is not ‘gimping’ them as you seem to see it. It does not make them bad. It does not mean they suck.

The way I look at it (and this is purely my opinion here), is the people running the full Berserker gear are the ones who are gimp[ed]. They have to rely on sheer punch to powerhouse through, otherwise they simply can’t do it. They have to kill ‘it’ before whatever ‘it’ is can hit them, otherwise they are pretty well toast. This doesn’t require thought, just button mashing and maybe a dodge or 2.

Editing so [g]i[m]p and gimp[ed] aren’t censored. Hilarious that they are but gimping isn’t.

Faux.1937:

Enough of the “it doesnt matter” because it does matter, yes you can do basic pve with “No gear” but that doesnt mean it is “good” and what I mean by good is, you can do your quests/story/dungeons/fractals and be able to finish it feeling good, not dying all the time, feeling like you actually did something and not something that make you feel better than other players like “I did it with no gear, look at me” but know that your character can handle it and the sense of completion.

Your feelings are subjective and, therefore, irrelevant to discussion. Everyone has different feelings.

And you can finish all PvE content “naked running” barely dying.

Faux.1937:

If gear didnt matter at all, then no one would be where it, Zerk cof p1 runs wouldnt require gear checks, some parts of dungeons like the 1st boss in TA wouldnt be a dps race and zerk well, zerk wouldnt get a name b.c there would be no one wearing zerk armor they all would laugh and say “you got armor on? well you must suck at this game”.

Because they’re looking for efficiency . You’re really struggling with this one aren’t you?

CoF Speedrunners aren’t worried they won’t finish the dungeon. They’re trying to speedrun , i.e.: run it as quickly as possible, so they need to be as efficiently as possible. Naked runs aren’t efficient. Non-berserkers aren’t efficient. It’s sad but true. Can other people, with “inefficient” parties, builds and gear clear CoF 1 without dying a billion times? Yes. They can do it naked rangers even. Are they going to be as efficient as a full “tried and true” speedrun berserker party? Not by a long shot. It’s all about what you want.

Faux.1937:

Lets me real for a minute and actually discus something that could help players make a good fair choice within the means that they want.

But you already have that. You’re just willfully disregarding the answer because it is not convenient.

No you are saying “dont do +all stats b.c it sucks” Im asking and saying, lets find the best class/build for it"

Im trying to find a way to use the +all stats the best I can, you people keeps going back to, “Zerk is better run that, dont do +all stats”

It seems you dont get it, Lets talk about +all stats and what classes it works better with.

kitten ppl thats the name of the topic, its not “Is +all stats worth it?”

Faux.1937:

No you are saying “dont do +all stats b.c it sucks” Im asking and saying, lets find the best class/build for it"

Im trying to find a way to use the +all stats the best I can, you people keeps going back to, “Zerk is better run that, dont do +all stats”

It seems you dont get it, Lets talk about +all stats and what classes it works better with.

kitten ppl thats the name of the topic, its not “Is +all stats worth it?”

You’d probably be better off to ignore people like Proxy and those like him/her. They are of the mind that the game is about being 100% efficient, and nothing else is ‘ok’. Nothing else is acceptable. If you aren’t among their efficiency group, then you ‘suck’ or are ‘bad’ or whatever. They can’t wrap their heads around the fact that to other people, the game isn’t a job. It isn’t about efficiency, it isn’t about how fast you can do it, and feel the need to force their view on other people. [Kind of like over zealous religious types]

Faux.1937:

No you are saying “dont do +all stats b.c it sucks” Im asking and saying, lets find the best class/build for it"

Im trying to find a way to use the +all stats the best I can, you people keeps going back to, “Zerk is better run that, dont do +all stats”

It seems you dont get it, Lets talk about +all stats and what classes it works better with.

kitten ppl thats the name of the topic, its not “Is +all stats worth it?”

You already have that answer . D/D elementalists in PvP, with potential for specific engineer builds, also in PvP. Other builds or situations benefit more from more “directly tailored” gear. Can you use it in other characters or situations? Yes, but it’s not ideal.

This has been repeated ad nauseam.

ProxyDamage.9826:

CrossedHorse.4261:

Again, with the “you aren’t good enough to” … um? I, personally, probably am not good enough for most things you consider worthwhile, but I consider myself good enough.

…uh? What is this I don’t even…

CrossedHorse.4261:

But this thread isn’t about efficiency. It’s about viability.

Viability in the sense of “can you finish content like this” is irrelevant. Everything is viable. People do naked runs kitten . PvE, in the “being able to cross the finish line” sense, is kitten easy.

CrossedHorse.4261:

And why would you need to be better than anyone else to run full zerker? You hit dodge and negate all damage. Then you hit so hard you finish an enemy before it can level another attack. Hmm. Yes, efficient, certainly. Good? You haven’t shown me anything that marks out any skill there. If anything, the you’ve specced yourself out so that the build is a crutch in itself. It’s a good build – you don’t necessarily have to be good to play it.

I think you’re having some sort of comprehension difficulty here…

Again, we’re talking about efficiency. To be the best possible in PvE, to be as efficient as possible, you run full berserker. This has been demonstrated and explained several times now. The only reason to not run full berserker, if you are trying to attain the best possible performance, is if you’re not good enough to run it. If running full berserker is, as you said, “easier”, then there’s absolutely no reason not to if you are trying to improve your performance.

Whether that makes you a more or less skilled player is irrelevant to the question at hand. I guess you could claim that if you run a marathon with lead shoes it shows you’re more skilled than someone running with normal sneakers… Or a masochist. Whichever. Denominations such as those can be awfully fickle.

But the thread wasn’t about efficiency. Look at the OP – it IS about viability. And you’ll see that I did in fact answer that anything was viable.

YOU are the one who made this a discussion about good and bad. You equated efficient with good and inefficient with bad. Read your own posts again – you directly said if you don’t run berserker then you’re a bad player.

I AGREE that you aren’t being as efficient at possible if you’re not running zerker gear. I never said I didn’t agree there. I DON’T agree that this makes you BAD.

And stop calling me thick. I’m not an idiot. In pure terms of using the language, you’re the one who has turned the thread into something it never was about. YOU brought in good and bad and efficiency.

Ok! so Ele are good for it, engineers can be, just not as much as ele. Just like a few more players opinions.

Having a couple opinions is cool, but more is better

CrossedHorse.4261:

But the thread wasn’t about efficiency. Look at the OP – it IS about viability. And you’ll see that I did in fact answer that anything was viable.

YOU are the one who made this a discussion about good and bad. You equated efficient with good and inefficient with bad.

Answered to death already. See above. Not going to answer the same thing for the third or fourth time now. Everything is viable.

CrossedHorse.4261:

Read your own posts again – you directly said if you don’t run berserker then you’re a bad player.

You first. As I’ve explained several times now what I did say is if you’re trying to be efficient, if you’re going for performance, the only reason not to run berserker gear is if you’re not good enough for it. I stand by that.

I play full zerker with 2 pieces of celestial trinkets and a Knight’s shield. As an Engi who constantly changes builds, it’s a nice bit of stat spreading that is always useful to me. When playing straight grenade dps, having a little +cond is nice. When rolling FT/EG damage/support, the celestial pieces help boost my support capabilties just a little.

ProxyDamage.9826:

CrossedHorse.4261:

But the thread wasn’t about efficiency. Look at the OP – it IS about viability. And you’ll see that I did in fact answer that anything was viable.

YOU are the one who made this a discussion about good and bad. You equated efficient with good and inefficient with bad.

Answered to death already. See above. Not going to answer the same thing for the third or fourth time now. Everything is viable.

CrossedHorse.4261:

Read your own posts again – you directly said if you don’t run berserker then you’re a bad player.

You first. As I’ve explained several times now what I did say is if you’re trying to be efficient, if you’re going for performance, the only reason not to run berserker gear is if you’re not good enough for it. I stand by that.

I see you answered it. I wasn’t asking you to answer it, I was just pointing out that your fixation on efficiency wasn’t what was being asked for here. The question of efficiency and good or bad wasn’t even really relevant.

And I know you stand by your point. I’m simply saying I object to the assumption that you’re “not good enough” because you don’t run berserker gear. I realise you find being efficient fun. But, as others have pointed out, fun is subjective. Maybe people don’t find it fun to complete a dungeon in 8/10 minutes flat. Maybe they actually want to have time to, I don’t know, actually experience something. Maybe they find the gameplay fun. Maybe they want to experiment. You are implying that all these people are bad players simply because they don’t CHOOSE to use zerker gear because “there is no reason not to”. I’ve just given you a few reasons why they wouldn’t, which have NO impact on their talent level.

As far as pure PVE efficiency goes, Proxy is unarguably right about Zerk gear > all else. Simply put, once you have mastered the dodge mechanic and are at least “good” with it, the all Zerk gear is the best possible option for the overwhelming majority of PvE content.

However, (there’s always a “however” lol) … however, it has been my experience in both WvW and PvP that no one is as terribly bad a player in those venues, as the dedicated PvE “zerk” player. On average they have far less knowledge of their full catalogue of weapon sets than others, less knowledge of their skills and utilities and a very one-dimensional approach that makes them easy kills and a burden to your group.

Of course I am speaking in generalities, and there are many PvE zerkers that transition flawlessly to WvW and PvP. But exceptions they are, because the majority of the COF1 speedrun teenagers are incredibly lame players when facing actual human beings.

CrossedHorse.4261:

I see you answered it. I wasn’t asking you to answer it, I was just pointing out that your fixation on efficiency wasn’t what was being asked for here. The question of efficiency and good or bad wasn’t even really relevant.

And I know you stand by your point. I’m simply saying I object to the assumption that you’re “not good enough” because you don’t run berserker gear. I realise you find being efficient fun. But, as others have pointed out, fun is subjective. Maybe people don’t find it fun to complete a dungeon in 8/10 minutes flat. Maybe they actually want to have time to, I don’t know, actually experience something. Maybe they find the gameplay fun. Maybe they want to experiment. You are implying that all these people are bad players simply because they don’t CHOOSE to use zerker gear because “there is no reason not to”. I’ve just given you a few reasons why they wouldn’t, which have NO impact on their talent level.

I’ll mention three things related to the highlighted content, in order, and make of that what you will cause this is boring me now.

1 – If efficiency wasn’t relevant then the thread itself is irrelevant. As I said before, if your only question is who can use Celestial gear to be viable, in the sense of being able to finish PvE content the answer is anyone. It doesn’t matter. You can do that naked, so it doesn’t matter what gear you have on for that specific goal, so all gear is valid.

2 – You know who said that the most often? Me. Perhaps you should read my posts again, a little more carefully this time.

3 – Incorrect. I implied nothing. I stated outright that if you’re playing with efficiency and performance as a goal and not running berserker gear you are bad. Different.

Ision.3207:

As far as pure PVE efficiency goes, Proxy is unarguably right about Zerk builds > all else. Simply put, once you have mastered the dodge mechanic and are at least “good” with it, the all Zerk gear is the best possible option for the overwhelming majority of PvE content.

However, (there’s always a “however” lol) … however, it has been my experience in both WvW and PvP that no one is as terribly bad a player in those venues, as the dedicated PvE “zerk” player. On average they have far less knowledge of their full catalogue of weapon sets than others, less knowledge of their skills and utilities and a very one-dimensional approach that makes them easy kills and a burden to your group.

Of course I am speaking in generalities, and there are many PvE zerkers that transition flawlessly to WvW and PvP. But exceptions they are, because the majority of the COF1 speedrun teenagers are incredibly lame players when facing actual human beings.

I will say that this is my experience as well. A lot of people forget that PvP (in which I include structured PvP and WvW) are completely different ball games from PvE. Nothing amuses me more than catching an obvious “full berserker speed runner” that thinks he’s still killing mobs. I like to use them as personal benchmarks, seeing how quickly I can destroy them, how little damage they manage to do, or I’m feeling particularly sadistic, how long I can “play” with them without killing them.

But to be fair, a lot of people are also absolutely horrible in PvP, with no relation to their PvE skill… Especially in WvW…

Even if we are talking about pure Efficiency, I would argue your wrong Proxy. Full Zerk is best when

a) In Dungeons
b) With a team that knows how to dodge
c) With a team in full Zerker
d) With enough Aegis and Reflects to deal with the stuff you can’t dodge.

Now if I’m running with a pre-made Guild team using specific classes, Zerk is definitely the most efficient. If running with a CoF p1 speed run with the correct team, this is true because, it’s easy to dodge when necessary and the Mesmer should know when to reflect.

However I would argue that in a PuG group this all falls down. If 2 of your Zerkers run in and immediately get 1 shotted because they fail a dodge, due to not being experienced with running the Dungeon. Suddenly it all falls apart. If your Guardian doesn’t have a clue when to put up reflects or give the group Aegis, it all falls apart.

There are a lot of situations where Zerker is DEFINITELY not the most efficient build if you are PuGing a dungeon. Because efficiency in this situation means being able to run in and pick up the Zerker before he dies, or having enough protection to survive when the Guardian messes up. Because dead people do NO DPS, and the more of your team on the floor the more and more likely you are all going to wipe and have to start from scratch.

The biggest issue with all stats items ‘is that they give stats where a lot of classes really don’t need them.

Take mesmer for example. Mesmers have limited healing capacity, and their conditions are well separated from their direct damage attacks. So any points put into healing and condition damage is wasted.

So for “best classes”, this goes to classes that tend to do everything at once, and also hybrid well. There are 3 big candidates for all-stat items here:

Guardian
Elementalist
Engineer

Since all 3 heal, inflict conditions, and do direct damage at the same time with almost any build you choose for them. The all-stat items will probably be best used when in conjunction with other builds and not by themselves, though.

EDIT: Darn cat walked across the keyboard.

ProxyDamage.9826:

CrossedHorse.4261:

I see you answered it. I wasn’t asking you to answer it, I was just pointing out that your fixation on efficiency wasn’t what was being asked for here. The question of efficiency and good or bad wasn’t even really relevant.

And I know you stand by your point. I’m simply saying I object to the assumption that you’re “not good enough” because you don’t run berserker gear. I realise you find being efficient fun. But, as others have pointed out, fun is subjective. Maybe people don’t find it fun to complete a dungeon in 8/10 minutes flat. Maybe they actually want to have time to, I don’t know, actually experience something. Maybe they find the gameplay fun. Maybe they want to experiment. You are implying that all these people are bad players simply because they don’t CHOOSE to use zerker gear because “there is no reason not to”. I’ve just given you a few reasons why they wouldn’t, which have NO impact on their talent level.

I’ll mention three things related to the highlighted content, in order, and make of that what you will cause this is boring me now.

1 – If efficiency wasn’t relevant then the thread itself is irrelevant. As I said before, if your only question is who can use Celestial gear to be viable, in the sense of being able to finish PvE content the answer is anyone. It doesn’t matter. You can do that naked, so it doesn’t matter what gear you have on for that specific goal, so all gear is valid.

2 – You know who said that the most often? Me. Perhaps you should read my posts again, a little more carefully this time.

3 – Incorrect. I implied nothing. I stated outright that if you’re playing with efficiency and performance as a goal and not running berserker gear you are bad. Different.

I agree, it’s boring.

And, out of interest, just because I dislike accusing people of things without being sure I have a legitimate point, I did re-read your posts. I maintain that your argument did in fact shift from a more general point to a more specific point. I agree with your assessment in the specific situation (except the last part about not being good enough, but I do agree that if you are looking for efficiency alone then zerker gear is best in this circumstance). I disagree that this is the best way to play the game.

So. We’ll agree to disagree.

To answer more generally this specific post – I believe we were in agreement on that first point. That is, that anything is viable. I specifically made a post to the OP saying that.

I did note that you said fun was subjective, not objective.

And I already answered your last point in the first part of this.

Also, just a side note, but I admire your mettle in maintaining your stance and your temper (or maybe just not letting it come across too much in your posting) while the discussion took place. I do, though it may not seem like it, respect your opinion even though it is different from my own.

What about Necro? They do damage, condition damage and healing to a degree.

EDIT: sorry, have just seen that this has already been suggested.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

There are 3 big candidates for all-stat items here:

Guardian
Elementalist
Engineer

Since all 3 heal, inflict conditions, and do direct damage at the same time with almost any build you choose for them.

I’m curious to compare the stats of a full Celestial elementalist with a somewhat well rounded one using currently available stats. I doubt the full Celestial will be really better (I think it lacks enough Precision to use all that Critical Damage), but it will be something fun to play with once the build calculators get updated.

If i had to chose one class i’d say ele. Its not a mod i will ever use on my ranger or mesmer that’s for sure tho. Divinity runes ftw on mez

I’m a staff elementarist, I use all 5 jewels celestial when in WvW
with Armor set full and back PVT and Staff Berserker

I need a medium/high damage, my meteors and lava fonts need to hit hard
I need defence, I can’t be too squishy: a dead player is useless
I appreciate some healing, I nearly have perma-regeneration and I use a lot healing rain and geyser on my server mates
I don’t spit on some extra condition damage, is by far the more useless stat for a staff ele but I often apply aoe bleeds and burning so it’s not a total waste

The extra quantity of stats that the celestial gives cover the less useful stat (cond. dmg) and more
I will make this example with the ascended amulets stats:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Syzygy
ascended: 324 + 6% (57) crit dmg = 381
soldier: 296
berserker: 211 + 9% (85) crit dmg = 296

I’ve 85 stats point for free, 54 condition dmg and 31 healing power

Zerkers in your group are funny. They get a lot of time to tell you how to play when they’re downed or dead.

Zerker gear is designed for one thing: straight damage dealing

Now, this is great if all you have to do it sit back and spam your damage skills. But that’s not this game. This game is about movement. This game has a lot of on-crit-procs. This game has a lot of hidden conditions within damage skills.

So for my Engi (’Nades or FT/EG), having some of every stat is helpful. More tough/vit means more forgiving mistakes. More condition dmg means my bleed-on-crits deal more damage, as do my burns and other conditions that happen to apply from just about everything I do. More Healing Power makes my constant Healing Turret and MedKits and EG#5 will help my team out that much more.

Bottom line, if you want any other functionality out of your gear other than straight-non-condition-dps…don’t go Zerker. If you want some flair, some flavor, some utility, some fun in your playing, find something with flair. Otherwise, use Zerker gear and spam your dodge & shoot keys and don’t worry about your group.

Only noobs play zerker. Sure it works if u dodge every damage.

a) there is content you cannot have enougth doge rolls to dodge anything. If all 5 ppl play zerker – someone dies. Period. Dont talk now: blablabla u are a bad player you can dodge everything. No. You can’t. And u suck thinking you are good enogth doing it.

b) you can’t carry other bad players with zerker gear. You only opinion is to flame them hard and rage quit the party. Because zerker gear does not allow you to compensive any fails of other ppl. That’s why pros play all-stats and always did with ascended trinkets already. Period. I can carry bad ppl. You can’t with Zerker. I am the better player.

c) zerker gear is not always max dps for every class for every build. For example I finish veteran undead giant faster with rampager or even all-stats then with zerker on my engineer. Zerker gear sucks in skaling.

d) I dont need zerker gear because I dont need to farm cof. Only noobs farm cof. I own so much gold u would need to farm multiple years cof every day to reach that. Furthermore, I don’t need zerker anyways because I dont need to kill monsters as fast as possible to increase my income. GG you zerker guys still need this. Poor purse.

Forestnator.6298:

Only noobs play zerker. Sure it works if u dodge every damage.

a) there is content you cannot have enougth doge rolls to dodge anything. If all 5 ppl play zerker – someone dies. Period. Dont talk now: blablabla u are a bad player you can dodge everything. No. You can’t. And u suck thinking you are good enogth doing it.

b) you can’t carry other bad players with zerker gear. You only opinion is to flame them hard and rage quit the party. Because zerker gear does not allow you to compensive any fails of other ppl. That’s why pros play all-stats and always did with ascended trinkets already. Period. I can carry bad ppl. You can’t with Zerker. I am the better player.

c) zerker gear is not always max dps for every class for every build. For example I finish veteran undead giant faster with rampager or even all-stats then with zerker on my engineer. Zerker gear sucks in skaling.

d) I dont need zerker gear because I dont need to farm cof. Only noobs farm cof. I own so much gold u would need to farm multiple years cof every day to reach that. Furthermore, I don’t need zerker anyways because I dont need to kill monsters as fast as possible to increase my income. GG you zerker guys still need this. Poor purse.

Wow… I don’t even know where to begin…

But throw my vote in with Elementalist, if I had to choose one to use Celestial prefix with in PvE, but I probably still wouldn’t use Celestial if I had a choice. Definitely not Guardian. It may seem like supplying a little of everything is a good idea, until you realize each of your stats is only helping you a fraction of the time. Better to specialize in one thing and do it well to maximize the “uptime” of each stat.

Why do people keep using the argument that zerker gear users aren’t interested in having fun? Don’t you understand that some people get enjoyment out of seeing massive damage numbers?

But no, bad gear is apparently “more fun” and has “more flair”. You guys just … baffle me.