Guild Wars 2

I keep seeing the gem shop mentioned, as if there is something in there that is required for stat gain, or to obtain some higher level than not using the gem shop.
Fact of the matter is that the gem shop is QoL and has nothing to do with your in-game performance.
I fail to see how they’re “forcing” anyone towards the gem shop.
And obviously they want microtransactions, and are going to try to influence people to use the gem shop… They don’t have monthly revenue stream, and only charge once for the game.
If they had no income, the game would not stay open.
Gem shop is optional. Don’t like it? Don’t use it. Nothing in there will drastically alter your experience.

“Each patch has continually nerfed the ability for players to accumulate gold.

That forces players to the gem shop for gem to gold conversions – especially casual players."

Play the way you want doesn’t mean getting the best rewards for doing very little. It never has and never will. All the game content (except top fractals) is open to be played with rare gear and exotic gear and you can play the way you want in that content. Getting exotic gear isn’t hard. Getting anything else has nothing to do with playing the game, it’s about desiring game end rewards. If you are choosing to use your real world money for cosmetic game items then that’s your choice and you can’t blame the game designers for offering you that choice.

You may also assuming that you are competing against the game for money. You are not. You are competing against players who are playing the way you want but playing for twice or as long for twice as much gold. They will always force the price of trading post items out of your reach.

Stooperdale.3560:

Play the way you want doesn’t mean getting the best rewards for doing very little. It never has and never will.

This is the second time you try to undermine the people you are discussing with by presenting them as lazy or whatever.

Why do you feel the need to do that?

As if anyone asked for free legendaries or whatever…..

viralthefrog.6130:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

viralthefrog.6130:

If you think this game is the grindiest in western AAA MMO’s, you have probably not played many western AAA MMO’s.

Edit: Just saw your second post.
I see your previous experience and raise you two years in EVE Online.
Two years down and nowhere near the skills I needed to play how I wanted.

You mean you found a game that is grindier than GW2, and think that I am impressed?

EVE Online is a sandbox game, with a fully player controlled economy and universe. And it is surely not designed around one player being the hero.
Comparing this to the GW2 theme park, where everyone is second in command after Trahearne is a bit of out of place.

And please show me, where EVE Online was ever advertised as not being grindy, thx.

It seems that you’re miffed that I pointed out a great example of a game that is grindier than GW2.

I’ve never been interested in the ascended “grind”, but after researching the exact process for the ascended grind, and hearing personal testimony from numerous guild mates, I have no doubt in my mind that GW2 is nowhere near the grindiest of all western AAA MMO’s.

I played WoW (vanilla to WotLK, and a month of Cataclysm), EVE, SWG (with a Jedi during permadeath era), WoW, RIFT, RO (not western, but still much grindier), RuneScape, and a few others that escape me at the time.

Every single one of those are so much more of a grind than GW2 that I cannot even begin to comprehend how someone could feel that GW2 is the grindiest game out.

Not trying to “impress” you. Just pointing out that there are plenty of games that are much more of a grind.

Honestly, I don’t care much for either side of the argument. But no, you can’t compare EVE, which is a sandbox MMO with a player-based economy, to a theme-park MMO. There is almost no valid point of comparison between the two. Completely different designs, from the ground up. The other MMOs you listed work perfectly well as examples as they follow similar design schemes.

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Ah, again with this horrid misinterpretation of their manifesto.

I don’t like that they took away almost every champion from QD, but I can see why they did it. There was a bunch of controversy and silly arguments whenever someone killed a champion early and whatnot.

Also, Frostgorge Sound’s train is still up and running, so everyone can still farm without any major problems.

Frostgorge won’t help me level up my alts or farm karma.

“This is the second time you try to undermine the people you are discussing with by presenting them as lazy or whatever.

Why do you feel the need to do that?"

If anyone decides that they don’t want to put time (or money) into an MMO just to get a virtual reward then I wouldn’t call them lazy. I’d call them smart.

Wasn’t the “play my way” quote all about not being forced into having to play tank/dps/healer to finish content and only that?

goldenwing.8473:

There has never really been a “my way”.

There appears to be a game created by developers for next-bench players (e.g. created by developers who wish to play the game they created. see: pre-release videos). There appears to be this concept that the developers being gamers themselves understand the kind of game that others would enjoy, because they enjoy playing it a particular way. There appears to be a lack of awareness/understanding of customer experience, and a mature business need for marketing segmentation and the rigor involved with both.

Underneath all the apparent freedom with hearts and events and versatility in builds, looking beneath the surface, it appears that a campaign-driven style of directed gameplay is at odds with the freedom of exploration/replayability inherent in an MMO. In other words, it feels like the developers’ transition from single-player gaming concepts to a real MMO gaming model was not totally complete.

ANet has made it very clear, that this is not “your game”, it is their game and they have and will do anything they wish with it.

It stands to reason that no game design can foster a sense of, “This game was tailored for my desires and expectations.” There are just too many players, many of whom have different expectations.

ANet expressed a vision for the game that included many component parts. Some of the aspects of that vision have been compromised (“Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game.”), others are still a focus (“We think of GW2 as the first MMO that actually has a cooperative PvE experience.” and the emphasis on large events involving many players in the persistent world), while still others were never meant to be taken literally (the infamous, “GW2 takes everything you love about Guild Wars and puts it into an MMO format.”).

Without sitting in on game direction meetings at ANet, it’s impossible to know with certainty the underlying dynamics behind the direction the game has taken since launch. However, since we can observe the results of that direction, it’s possible to guess what those factors might be. The myopia that you’re postulating seems like a likely reason for some of what’s happened. I don’t think it’s the only one. As with any business, costs and profit (and thus cost effectiveness) are likely to be significant factors. Then there’s “trying to please as many demographics as possible.” ANet has pretty obviously done this, with notable exceptions being the small-group content and explorer demographics.

It may be no coincidence that certain game play aspects (i.e., large content with herds of players doing the same thing) are featured much more frequently than other types of content. As a former developer, perhaps you know whether herd content — which clearly attracts many players — is easier to produce than other types of content, such as new explorable zones with all the bells-and-whistles that come with them, or regular additions of small group content that provide new challenges and rewards. It certainly seems likely to me, but my experiences with programming were not in a game design environment.

Ronah Lynda.2496:

This game has been advertised like " we make the game for you, the player, we let you play the way you want to play"

This actually changed in November 2012. It was marketing speak to sucker people into playing the game.

Ayrilana.1396:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

You must be kidding…

After they introduced the grindiest grinds ever in a western AAA MMO (noone likes to grind they said), vertical progression (even casuals should have BiS they said), most of the events are watered down to press 1, 1 and 1 again (boring they said), you still think they would give a kitten about what they said in the past?

That is a lot of faith you got there.

Perhaps you should gain some experience/knowledge by playing other MMO’s than just this one. You would see that all of them have a grind and GW2’s pales in comparison to some of them.

And yet, most of them tend to reward you with a lot more than sidegrades and cosmetic skins.

IndigoSundown.5419:

It stands to reason that no game design can foster a sense of, “This game was tailored for my desires and expectations.” There are just too many players, many of whom have different expectations.

ANet expressed a vision for the game that included many component parts. Some of the aspects of that vision have been compromised (“Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game.”), others are still a focus (“We think of GW2 as the first MMO that actually has a cooperative PvE experience.” and the emphasis on large events involving many players in the persistent world), while still others were never meant to be taken literally (the infamous, “GW2 takes everything you love about Guild Wars and puts it into an MMO format.”).

Without sitting in on game direction meetings at ANet, it’s impossible to know with certainty the underlying dynamics behind the direction the game has taken since launch. However, since we can observe the results of that direction, it’s possible to guess what those factors might be. The myopia that you’re postulating seems like a likely reason for some of what’s happened. I don’t think it’s the only one. As with any business, costs and profit (and thus cost effectiveness) are likely to be significant factors. Then there’s “trying to please as many demographics as possible.” ANet has pretty obviously done this, with notable exceptions being the small-group content and explorer demographics.

It may be no coincidence that certain game play aspects (i.e., large content with herds of players doing the same thing) are featured much more frequently than other types of content. As a former developer, perhaps you know whether herd content — which clearly attracts many players — is easier to produce than other types of content, such as new explorable zones with all the bells-and-whistles that come with them, or regular additions of small group content that provide new challenges and rewards. It certainly seems likely to me, but my experiences with programming were not in a game design environment.

Excellent post!

And yes, there are business factors that many of us can speculate about.

I have to clarify, I am a retired software systems developer, and have only done a small amount of game development. (Career spans operating systems, business systems, research systems with a smattering of gaming systems. There is no way I can ever claim to be an expert on gaming development.) In my experience, customers never use the product the way it is intended. A developer (of any software system) needs to be light on their feet in response to those situations.

The comment regarding “not your game”, is in reference to the standard gaming textbook concept that holds that the minute the game is released and is placed in the hands of customers, it moves out of the developer’s control and belongs to the customers as well. The collective of customers will be so much smarter about the game at that point than the smaller group of developers can envision.

(See: Developing Online Games by Jessica Mulligan and Bridgette Patrovsky, 2003: chapter 11: “Probably the most frequent mistake I’ve seen live teams make is they don’t listen to their player base when deciding what new features to add. Live teams are under the delusion that the game is theirs, as opposed to that of the player base, and often they will try to muck with systems that are just fine, thank you very much.” By the way, that’s a quote from Damion Schubert.)

PS: I left a post regarding vision earlier:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Do-you-want-us-not-to-farm-champs/first#post4042107

goldenwing.8473:

And yes, there are business factors that many of us can speculate about.

I have to clarify, I am a retired software systems developer, and have only done a small amount of game development. (Career spans operating systems, business systems, research systems with a smattering of gaming systems. There is no way I can ever claim to be an expert on gaming development.) In my experience, customers never use the product the way it is intended. A developer (of any software system) needs to be light on their feet in response to those situations.

The comment regarding “not your game”, is in reference to the standard gaming textbook concept that holds that the minute the game is released and is placed in the hands of customers, it moves out of the developer’s control and belongs to the customers as well. The collective of customers will be so much smarter about the game at that point than the smaller group of developers can envision.

(See: Developing Online Games by Jessica Mulligan and Bridgette Patrovsky, 2003: chapter 11: “Probably the most frequent mistake I’ve seen live teams make is they don’t listen to their player base when deciding what new features to add. Live teams are under the delusion that the game is theirs, as opposed to that of the player base, and often they will try to muck with systems that are just fine, thank you very much.” By the way, that’s a quote from Damion Schubert.)

PS: I left a post regarding vision earlier:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Do-you-want-us-not-to-farm-champs/first#post4042107

Thanks for the link. I managed to miss that one.

I remember in one of Mike O’Brien’s blogs he stated that there was something cool about seeing large groups of players doing events together. Whether that attitude propagates down the chain or whether the staff also shares that vision, the fact remains that game direction flows from upper management. They set the parameters for how the game is developed — even if that only extends to hiring staff who buy into the vision.

Maybe the team’s vision was developed autocratically, or maybe by consensus of higher management and staff. I don’t know. The results, on the other hand, show that ANet remains committed to certain philosophies and selectively ignores others.

For an example of the latter, consider the buff to Healing Signet back when Warriors were the red-headed step-child of PvP. Despite a statement of intent about making incremental changes and avoiding big balance swings, Healing Signet received an increase in effectiveness that approached 100%. Warriors went from the ignored to the reviled in short order.

What I see is massive inconsistency. On one hand, ANet is in reactive mode (see Ascended implementation, which is then revised due to player backlash), while on the other they either stick to an internal vision or ignore it at their whim regardless of customer reactions. The result is a massive cluster-kitten in which the only demographic consistently catered to is the one that wants herd content.

Come to think of it, that’s fairly close to what you’re saying.

Not meaning to white knight or black knight or whatever but Anet has always had this problem even going way back to the GW1 days.

Much of the issues lies with the player base who more or less just whines about this or that but rarely is it do you get constructive nuanced feedback. Yes, I know there are thread after thread where people try but as often as not they get derailed.

A perfect example of this was skill balancing back in the GW1 days. All Anet got from the general player base was “X skill is OP! Nerf plox, Y skill is UP! buff plox (no reasons forthcoming)”, “This content is rubbish! (no reasons forthcoming”.

It got down to the point that the dev, Izzy Cartwright, who worked on skill balancing was only talking to the PVPers who actually gave him reasons why certain combinations ended being massively OP or UP. Ultimately that ended up with skills being balanced with PVP flavours. This naturally led to the inevitable “what the hell is he doing?! why is he balancing with only PVP in mind?!” insert spluttering rage

Anet is like any other company, they’re a service/product supplier. You put out a product and customers buy it. They may like it or dislike it and pass on feedback, but it is detailed feedback that is required for a product to be improved not generalised hand waving accompanied by random spluttering.

Don’t get me wrong, GW2 has flaws, lots of them, and much feedback has been generated. Anet certainly needs to get their act in gear and actually interact with the community to improve it, but the community needs look upon any interaction with Anet as an opportunity to evolve the game and not to make it another bashing session.

Ronah Lynda.2496:

This game has been advertised like " we make the game for you, the player, we let you play the way you want to play"
This has been happening for over a year now but after the recent nerfs, “the way of how we want to play” has become “the way we want you to play”
Notice the change? it is “you”

sometimes nerfs are a way for the game to allow you to play your way.

If a content is a lot more profitable then others it will naturally make the people who consume it rich. With that money they can afford to pay higher prices than other people who dont consume the same content.

There comes the dilemma. I might enjoy doing Dynamic events for example but if I dont join the champion train I will never be able to buy a precursor because farmers will amass wealth at a much quicker pace thus the precursor price is likely to keep rising while I will never be able to afford it by doing DE. Circumstances are in a sense forcing me to play content I dont want to play to get the reward I want to get.

With the nerfs (provided these are limited to equalizing rewards between different game types) can actually fix that. Farming will always be more profitable of course but if there isnt a big difference between that and DE I can choose to do them cause thats what i like doing while farmers can still farm, its still the most profitable content that didnt change, its just less profitable the game isnt forcing farmers to move on right now.

Ronah Lynda.2496:

This game has been advertised like " we make the game for you, the player, we let you play the way you want to play"
This has been happening for over a year now but after the recent nerfs, “the way of how we want to play” has become “the way we want you to play”
Notice the change? it is “you”

Source for this? I bet you can’t find it.

Teon.5168:

This whole thread is a fairly pointless time sink…….the whole topic is very subjective, as everyone has their own way of finding enjoyment with a game. So, of course, different aspects appeal and don’t appeal to different players. There is no right or wrong way….there are just different ways to play, and the enjoyment factor all depends on the person and what they consider enjoyable or not enjoyable in an mmorpg.

/shrug

Of course there’s not wrong way to play…
Unless you do the champ train in QD. Then you’re wrong. And you’re a monster. And the scourge of the community. And must be erradicated.
Evil traindoers, being toxic and badmouthing every player they cross for no reason, and PKing the poor newbies and eating their poor innocent souls.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Xenon.4537:

I think it’s high time Anet got back to 5-man content. Combat was originally designed around 5-man, and it’s the only time you ever press more than 11111111111.

Oddly, I never press the one key in sequence like that. I use all my skills, when the situation calls for it, in all game modes. I’ll admit to disliking certain weapons for which the 1 key does most of the damage, but that’s because the other (situational) skills are rarely called for. Maybe we’re talking about the same thing?

“Pressing 1111111” is a bit of an exaggeration to illustrate the futility of applying skilled-play in a zerg. Sure, elementalists might toss out a meteor shower, or guardians might do the spin attack, but lets be honest, there is no mental application required for zerg combat. You could literally faceroll and accomplish the same thing. When 70+ people are attacking a single mob, the DPS math just doesn’t matter (except maybe in the triple wurm fight where time is a factor). The only skilled play that ever comes out of a zerg is if the commander calls for water fields and people actually drop and blast them properly, which is highly unlikely as many people flat out refuse to get on Teamspeak, and guardians love to foul things up with their retaliation fields…

In a 5 man encounter you actually have to be cognizant of your skill rotation, the bosses attack pattern, positioning, what your allies are doing, does anyone need to be ressed, conditions actually become viable, etc.

Champ train was devolved or degenerate gameplay. It was a gaming style that wasn’t foreseen by the devs when they “fixed” the champ reward problem. Champ reward + champ respawn times + number of champs in zone + waypoints = Choo Choo. Just like Zerk stats weren’t intended to be “the” way to equip. They recognized that they accidentally created a monster and they had to fix it before people started writing that the game was only about fighting the same 6 guys in the starting zone over and over and over again.

Flashing back to City of Heroes. The devs created a way for players to generate their own content and offer it to others to play. It was a nice creative tool and when used that way some of the stories you could play were as good or better dev developed content. Problem, only 5% of those who used the system used it that way, the other 95% quickly found ways to create content for rapid and easy leveling. Not something you want in a game you charge monthly for. Every patch after had some nerf being applied because someone found some other way to use it in a way the devs didn’t intend to be used.

Honestly, we had a flood of max level characters whose players had no idea how to play outside of our “(not so) danger room”. They didn’t know how to travel to other zones, didn’t know where the vendors or trainers were, couldn’t fight anything other than the powder puffs they faced in these rapid leveling player written scenarios. Wonderful idea, a way to get new content between releases, horribly exploited by those who had a very narrow outlook on playing an MMO, level to max ASAP, farm loot ASAP. While it’s good to have a goal, things like the train or speed runs can take pursuing that goal with laser like precision a little to far.

When “your way” adversely affects the game as a whole, “your way” loses.

rincewind.9528:

Teon.5168:

This whole thread is a fairly pointless time sink…….the whole topic is very subjective, as everyone has their own way of finding enjoyment with a game. So, of course, different aspects appeal and don’t appeal to different players. There is no right or wrong way….there are just different ways to play, and the enjoyment factor all depends on the person and what they consider enjoyable or not enjoyable in an mmorpg.

/shrug

Of course there’s not wrong way to play…
Unless you do the champ train in QD. Then you’re wrong. And you’re a monster. And the scourge of the community. And must be erradicated.
Evil traindoers, being toxic and badmouthing every player they cross for no reason, and PKing the poor newbies and eating their poor innocent souls.

Lmao! Well, of course! I assumed that everyone already knew that.

Dalanor.5387:

Ronah Lynda.2496:

This game has been advertised like " we make the game for you, the player, we let you play the way you want to play"
This has been happening for over a year now but after the recent nerfs, “the way of how we want to play” has become “the way we want you to play”
Notice the change? it is “you”

Source for this? I bet you can’t find it.

What do I win if I find it?

One of the things that was actually really hard for us when we started was a concern that we were fragmenting the playerbase in terms of building all these new features and new things that were forcing people to go their separate ways. […] That’s the entire reason the Molten Alliance facility and the Aetherblade Retreat were there as kinda temporary content. We wanted to make it a focal point to get everyone in and everyone playing it, but not to the point they come out and never want to see it again.

aka when people were going “their separate ways” playing the way they wanted, then A-Net thought, we should make them play what we want.
Later they created the zergs which"everyone" is playing them so that now they created the anti-zerg system.
So you really think these guys know what they are doing other then earning money with cash shop fluff?

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/08/28/arenanets-mike-zadorojny-reflects-on-one-year-of-guild-wars-2-a/

If we made a version of the game that was just Queensdale pre-nerf (no other zones; you’re restricted to just Queensdale), how many people would play it?

I remember back at the start, the Champion level bosses in the starter zones were incredibly difficult for a new player (except a couple of the ghosts in the Charr zone and the Wolfmaster; those always seemed easy, somehow). The Queensdale Troll was probably the worst, as he would range pretty far from his cave and hit like a truck. They were not something new players could handle very easily, and by and large, they didn’t get fought. Moving them down to veterans makes sense from a gameplay perspective when you don’t factor the train into the decision one way or the other, and the fact that ANet cut down most of the Champions in all the starter zones except for a couple of the chain-event bosses suggests that this was at least part of their thinking.

Ronah Lynda.2496:

Dalanor.5387:

Ronah Lynda.2496:

This game has been advertised like " we make the game for you, the player, we let you play the way you want to play"
This has been happening for over a year now but after the recent nerfs, “the way of how we want to play” has become “the way we want you to play”
Notice the change? it is “you”

Source for this? I bet you can’t find it.

What do I win if I find it?

One of the things that was actually really hard for us when we started was a concern that we were fragmenting the playerbase in terms of building all these new features and new things that were forcing people to go their separate ways. […] That’s the entire reason the Molten Alliance facility and the Aetherblade Retreat were there as kinda temporary content. We wanted to make it a focal point to get everyone in and everyone playing it, but not to the point they come out and never want to see it again.

aka when people were going “their separate ways” playing the way they wanted, then A-Net thought, we should make them play what we want.
Later they created the zergs which"everyone" is playing them so that now they created the anti-zerg system.
So you really think these guys know what they are doing other then earning money with cash shop fluff?

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/08/28/arenanets-mike-zadorojny-reflects-on-one-year-of-guild-wars-2-a/

That’s right.

Firstly, they split us between servers, dungeons, fractals, pve, pvp and etc.
Then they bring us together with living story and now they think there are too many of us playing together, because we are zerging, and with the last patches, they want to separate us again.

If this was a single player game, I guess you can have “your way”.

But in an MMORPG, if “my way” and “your way” did not coincide then what should we do? Clearly, neither of us can dictate how the other should play and being able to get “your way” all the time would not be possible.

I would suggest everyone takes the “Play How You Want” quote with a pinch (or 2) of salt. Its being twisted out of context and used to justify all sorts of selfish and anti-social behavior.

justkoh.4073:

If this was a single player game, I guess you can have “your way”.

But in an MMORPG, if “my way” and “your way” did not coincide then what should we do? Clearly, neither of us can dictate how the other should play and being able to get “your way” all the time would not be possible.

I would suggest everyone takes the “Play How You Want” quote with a pinch (or 2) of salt. Its being twisted out of context and used to justify all sorts of selfish and anti-social behavior.

I enjoyed the QD train for 30-45 min in a day, the time I have to play anyway. it was good for doing some dailies and monthlies and good for leveling alts or getting money/loot. too.
“My way” is not to go around an explore the world. “My way” is to have a relaxing time in the game without too much thinking and still feeling I have some the progress and the QD train was just doing that for me and possibly many others.
Turning the Champs into Vets in starter zones, destroyed “my way” of enjoying the game.
I hope it is more clear now

Ronah Lynda.2496:

I enjoyed the QD train for 30-45 min in a day, the time I have to play anyway. it was good for doing some dailies and monthlies and good for leveling alts or getting money/loot. too.

“My way” is not to go around an explore the world. “My way” is to have a relaxing time in the game without too much thinking and still feeling I have some the progress and the QD train was just doing that for me and possibly many others.
Turning the Champs into Vets in starter zones, destroyed “my way” of enjoying the game.

I hope it is more clear now

In that case, you have nothing to worry about. Champs still drop champ loot bags (unfortunately). Its just the starter zones that cannot have champ trains anymore. Was there anything particular about QD that it HAD to be there?

I’m sure the farmers are figuring out the next best zone to have such trains and because they’ll need everybody’s help to make it easy enough to get rewards by just spamming ‘1’, they will certainly share their results .

That said, the game cannot be stagnant because you happened to enjoy something in particular. So like it or not, don’t be too fixated on any particular “way”.

Ronah Lynda.2496:

I enjoyed the QD train for 30-45 min in a day, the time I have to play anyway. it was good for doing some dailies and monthlies and good for leveling alts or getting money/loot too. “My way” is not to go around an explore the world. “My way” is to have a relaxing time in the game without too much thinking and still feeling I have some the progress and the QD train was just doing that for me and possibly many others. Turning the Champs into Vets in starter zones, destroyed “my way” of enjoying the game. I hope it is more clear now

Finally, someone who sits down and explains what “my way” is in relation to Queensdale. The problem (ANet’s problem, not Ronah’s) is that the game needs to provide casual players a means to provide a quick, simple, and somewhat rewarding means to play for a short period of time. Even though I personally support the change, there is a definite drawback in that I no longer have the luxury that when I needed a Champion / Group Event / Krytan Event for a Daily / Monthly and didn’t have time to search for one, Queensdale was the guaranteed way to get one. I can understand Ronah’s frustration.

Perhaps, since ANet seems to prefer constructive feedback, can we think of ways to both provide the quick/simple/relaxing gameplay that casuals want without fostering the zerg mentality in low-level zones? I don’t recommend the World Boss train, even just the low level stops, as that seems to be more zergy than the train itself, if less hostile. Is there a way that we could make map exploration less of a chore for alts? I always level up my alts through exploring new areas because I get more experience, karma and skill points and almost as much money / other loot as I do from the train.

I reduced the time i play daily GW2 due exactly that, i feel things recently got “the way we want you to play”, like being forced to change my gameplay style because they wanted it that way.

I’m not sure if there is any good future of GW2.

Well, for a game that was advertised to have no grind (misinterpretation, yeah sure), following the footsteps of GW adding a “2”, you cant deny that this game turned out to have some measure of grind for gear, especially compared to its predecessor.

But compared to other MMOs out there….oh my, I guess you never had a Master Weaponsmith or Creature Hunter in SWG, did you?

On the other hand, I dont actually count GW2 as an MMO, more something like multiplayer fantasy-action combat with cashshop fluff and some nods to MMO mechanics.

So that takes me back comparing GW2 with GW1, which seems to me the only valid comparison.

I’m unsure what’s preventing players from playing “the way they want to play”. Is everyone being forced to play a certain way? Am I the only one playing the way I want? :S

justkoh.4073:

Ronah Lynda.2496:

I enjoyed the QD train for 30-45 min in a day, the time I have to play anyway. it was good for doing some dailies and monthlies and good for leveling alts or getting money/loot. too.

“My way” is not to go around an explore the world. “My way” is to have a relaxing time in the game without too much thinking and still feeling I have some the progress and the QD train was just doing that for me and possibly many others.
Turning the Champs into Vets in starter zones, destroyed “my way” of enjoying the game.

I hope it is more clear now

In that case, you have nothing to worry about. Champs still drop champ loot bags (unfortunately). Its just the starter zones that cannot have champ trains anymore. Was there anything particular about QD that it HAD to be there?

I’m sure the farmers are figuring out the next best zone to have such trains and because they’ll need everybody’s help to make it easy enough to get rewards by just spamming ‘1’, they will certainly share their results .

That said, the game cannot be stagnant because you happened to enjoy something in particular. So like it or not, don’t be too fixated on any particular “way”.

Yes, there is running train in FGS, but there is one little problem in that map. It is level 80 map, and when you are leveling up your alts, it means you dont get any xp or karma or loot in there, because you can not do enough damage. So in that way QD train was good for new players, veteran players who level up their alts and could relax same time.

Most of the players who did QD train, they didn’t hit mindlessly 1 or do auto attack. They really used all their skills. It was best place to relax and test my builds with those champions. If I was doing support build I wanted to test it in some action. If I made Supporting Well Necro, I wanted to test in there in action, how it support for melees and other players. In that way I made best builds in this game and I didn’t need any dueling in this game. I find out in best way how build really works.

Now there is not good places to make these little testings anymore. When you go higher areas, you should have your build made up already or you are useless in there.

Vesuvius.9874:

I’m unsure what’s preventing players from playing “the way they want to play”. Is everyone being forced to play a certain way? Am I the only one playing the way I want? :S

It is a known fact that people choose the simplest, easiest and shortest way to achieve their goals in RL or in video-games.

For those who’s only goal is to log in the game and “i’ll see what i will do today” pops up in their minds, then yes, the game can be played the way they want
But for those who set up plans for themselves with various goals and the simplest, easiest and shortest ways to get them, any change they make to affect the game mechanics affects their plans.

I am sure if you would set up a goal for yourself and someone is preventing you from getting it the way you planned to get it, you would be frustrated too

Sinope.5630:

Yes, there is running train in FGS, but there is one little problem in that map. It is level 80 map, and when you are leveling up your alts, it means you dont get any xp or karma or loot in there, because you can not do enough damage. So in that way QD train was good for new players, veteran players who level up their alts and could relax same time.

Most of the players who did QD train, they didn’t hit mindlessly 1 or do auto attack. They really used all their skills. It was best place to relax and test my builds with those champions. If I was doing support build I wanted to test it in some action. If I made Supporting Well Necro, I wanted to test in there in action, how it support for melees and other players. In that way I made best builds in this game and I didn’t need any dueling in this game. I find out in best way how build really works.

Now there is not good places to make these little testings anymore. When you go higher areas, you should have your build made up already or you are useless in there.

That’s also assuming no new champ train route will ever be created. QD and FGS champ trains were not created by A-net with the release of the game. Someone thought of it and someone else will think of an alternative now (I hope not but that’s probably fooling myself).

BTW, just my opinion, but I don’t think champ trains are good for new players (from the perspective of first impressions and learning to play). It feels like teaching children to smoke.

JustTrogdor.7892:

We play how Anet want’s us to. PvP and WvW getting left behind, nerf PvE dailies and try to funnel PvE players there. Not spending enough time in certain zones, nerf other zones to force you there. Anet seems to spend a lot of time trying to direct players into certain areas. Instead of improving the areas they want to funnel us into they nerf the heck out of everything else to try to force us there.

Hold on a sec.

See the ktrain in EotM?
See the ‘farm map only red cap, gather at B and suicide’ maps?

That’s what happens when you try and buff WvW or sPvP.

Vesuvius.9874:

I’m unsure what’s preventing players from playing “the way they want to play”. Is everyone being forced to play a certain way? Am I the only one playing the way I want? :S

Well, it’s kinda hard doing a train for champs in QD without, you know, the champs.

Anet said. BAD PLAYERS! DOING THINGS THAT WE DON’T WANT!

And poof, the train is gone crushed by the allmighty nerfhammer.

rincewind.9528:

Vesuvius.9874:

I’m unsure what’s preventing players from playing “the way they want to play”. Is everyone being forced to play a certain way? Am I the only one playing the way I want? :S

Well, it’s kinda hard doing a train for champs in QD without, you know, the champs.

Anet said. BAD PLAYERS! DOING THINGS THAT WE DON’T WANT!

And poof, the train is gone crushed by the allmighty nerfhammer.

Did you miss all the posts on these forums where the players were complaining about the QD train? You think maybe, just maybe, that had something to do with the nerf? If ANET didn’t want you to farm champs at all, why did they leave every champion in the rest of Tyria out of this? :S

Vesuvius, if you look at the post history of those complaining loudest about the QD train’s death, you’ll see they haven’t been particularly active here. At least not in posting.

So it’s entirely possible they never saw how much and how long we begged for them to kill it.

Ronah Lynda.2496:

Dalanor.5387:

Ronah Lynda.2496:

This game has been advertised like " we make the game for you, the player, we let you play the way you want to play"
This has been happening for over a year now but after the recent nerfs, “the way of how we want to play” has become “the way we want you to play”
Notice the change? it is “you”

Source for this? I bet you can’t find it.

What do I win if I find it?

One of the things that was actually really hard for us when we started was a concern that we were fragmenting the playerbase in terms of building all these new features and new things that were forcing people to go their separate ways. […] That’s the entire reason the Molten Alliance facility and the Aetherblade Retreat were there as kinda temporary content. We wanted to make it a focal point to get everyone in and everyone playing it, but not to the point they come out and never want to see it again.

aka when people were going “their separate ways” playing the way they wanted, then A-Net thought, we should make them play what we want.
Later they created the zergs which"everyone" is playing them so that now they created the anti-zerg system.
So you really think these guys know what they are doing other then earning money with cash shop fluff?

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/08/28/arenanets-mike-zadorojny-reflects-on-one-year-of-guild-wars-2-a/

It’s still not the source of the “playhowiwant” mantra, but nice try.

timmyf.1490:

Vesuvius, if you look at the post history of those complaining loudest about the QD train’s death, you’ll see they haven’t been particularly active here. At least not in posting.

So it’s entirely possible they never saw how much and how long we begged for them to kill it.

Quite possibly true for the forums, but remember they have access to everything that happens in game, and I mean the world chat messages. Not hard to see the amount of vitriol in there.

Sinope.5630:

justkoh.4073:

Ronah Lynda.2496:

I enjoyed the QD train for 30-45 min in a day, the time I have to play anyway. it was good for doing some dailies and monthlies and good for leveling alts or getting money/loot. too.

“My way” is not to go around an explore the world. “My way” is to have a relaxing time in the game without too much thinking and still feeling I have some the progress and the QD train was just doing that for me and possibly many others.
Turning the Champs into Vets in starter zones, destroyed “my way” of enjoying the game.

I hope it is more clear now

In that case, you have nothing to worry about. Champs still drop champ loot bags (unfortunately). Its just the starter zones that cannot have champ trains anymore. Was there anything particular about QD that it HAD to be there?

I’m sure the farmers are figuring out the next best zone to have such trains and because they’ll need everybody’s help to make it easy enough to get rewards by just spamming ‘1’, they will certainly share their results .

That said, the game cannot be stagnant because you happened to enjoy something in particular. So like it or not, don’t be too fixated on any particular “way”.

Yes, there is running train in FGS, but there is one little problem in that map. It is level 80 map, and when you are leveling up your alts, it means you dont get any xp or karma or loot in there, because you can not do enough damage. So in that way QD train was good for new players, veteran players who level up their alts and could relax same time.

Most of the players who did QD train, they didn’t hit mindlessly 1 or do auto attack. They really used all their skills. It was best place to relax and test my builds with those champions. If I was doing support build I wanted to test it in some action. If I made Supporting Well Necro, I wanted to test in there in action, how it support for melees and other players. In that way I made best builds in this game and I didn’t need any dueling in this game. I find out in best way how build really works.

Now there is not good places to make these little testings anymore. When you go higher areas, you should have your build made up already or you are useless in there.

Champ trains should never have been a way to level up. Good riddance to the low level champion trains if that’s how people were using them.

Lankybrit.4598:

Champ trains should never have been a way to level up. Good riddance to the low level champion trains if that’s how people were using them.

Yes because people should level up their 3rd, 4th, 5th or whatever alt the way you think they should right? And out of curiosity how do you suggest people level alts? What way is acceptable to you?

JustTrogdor.7892:

Lankybrit.4598:

Champ trains should never have been a way to level up. Good riddance to the low level champion trains if that’s how people were using them.

Yes because people should level up their 3rd, 4th, 5th or whatever alt the way you think they should right? And out of curiosity how do you suggest people level alts? What way is acceptable to you?

Doing hearts, events, vistas, waypoints, skill challenges, etc. just like they’re supposed to. Or maybe PvP if they want.

JustTrogdor.7892:

Lankybrit.4598:

Champ trains should never have been a way to level up. Good riddance to the low level champion trains if that’s how people were using them.

Yes because people should level up their 3rd, 4th, 5th or whatever alt the way you think they should right? And out of curiosity how do you suggest people level alts? What way is acceptable to you?

I have 7 80s and have done champ train for maybe 3 or 4 hours total. Leveling alts is easy-peasy in GW2. You just play the content and you level.

Ronah Lynda.2496:

This game has been advertised like " we make the game for you, the player, we let you play the way you want to play"
This has been happening for over a year now but after the recent nerfs, “the way of how we want to play” has become “the way we want you to play”
Notice the change? it is “you”

Obviously, your way is not Anet’s way. Anet has ToS, EULA, whathaveyou, that must be followed by gamers. If you think “my way” means I can abuse other players because “that’s how I wanna play” is valid, think again. I am not saying “you” personally advocate for this, but just showing an example where “player’s way” is not necessary “the right way” or “any way I wanna play the game” way.

“Your way” must fall within the confines of what the developers meant for the game to be played. Anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves.

Lankybrit.4598:

JustTrogdor.7892:

Lankybrit.4598:

Champ trains should never have been a way to level up. Good riddance to the low level champion trains if that’s how people were using them.

Yes because people should level up their 3rd, 4th, 5th or whatever alt the way you think they should right? And out of curiosity how do you suggest people level alts? What way is acceptable to you?

Doing hearts, events, vistas, waypoints, skill challenges, etc. just like they’re supposed to. Or maybe PvP if they want.

Well I’m glad you feel you get to decide how people should play and how they should level. Did you happen to read the title of this thread?

Vesuvius.9874:

rincewind.9528:

Vesuvius.9874:

I’m unsure what’s preventing players from playing “the way they want to play”. Is everyone being forced to play a certain way? Am I the only one playing the way I want? :S

Well, it’s kinda hard doing a train for champs in QD without, you know, the champs.

Anet said. BAD PLAYERS! DOING THINGS THAT WE DON’T WANT!

And poof, the train is gone crushed by the allmighty nerfhammer.

Did you miss all the posts on these forums where the players were complaining about the QD train? You think maybe, just maybe, that had something to do with the nerf? If ANET didn’t want you to farm champs at all, why did they leave every champion in the rest of Tyria out of this? :S

And do you miss all the posts and replies that were for it?

JustTrogdor.7892:

Lankybrit.4598:

JustTrogdor.7892:

Lankybrit.4598:

Champ trains should never have been a way to level up. Good riddance to the low level champion trains if that’s how people were using them.

Yes because people should level up their 3rd, 4th, 5th or whatever alt the way you think they should right? And out of curiosity how do you suggest people level alts? What way is acceptable to you?

Doing hearts, events, vistas, waypoints, skill challenges, etc. just like they’re supposed to. Or maybe PvP if they want.

Well I’m glad you feel you get to decide how people should play and how they should level. Did you happen to read the title of this thread?

The fact that one outlier method has been taken away from someone does not limit their choices that much. Oh they took away crafting as a way to get to 80. Well, guess what, it wasn’t intended to allow you to do that. It doesn’t mean that there aren’t tons of other alternatives. Just the outlier ones are being restricted.

Lankybrit.4598:

The fact that one outlier method has been taken away from someone does not limit their choices that much. Oh they took away crafting as a way to get to 80. Well, guess what, it wasn’t intended to allow you to do that. It doesn’t mean that there aren’t tons of other alternatives. Just the outlier ones are being restricted.

You seem to have changed your mind in a month.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/players/Playing-without-doing-Dungeons/first#post3879617

Lankybrit.4598:

ozmaniandevil.6805:

Lankybrit.4598:

ozmaniandevil.6805:

But you can make the same or more running the champ train and you’re not “stuck” in a dungeon. You can always try a couple and see if you like it. If you do, I suggest watching video first so you can at least know what to expect.

How do you make good money on a Champ train. Don’t they only give a few silver each? I guess the gear you get nets a bit more, or maybe I’m running the wrong train?

Salvage and sell my friend. If you do the Frostgorge Sound champ train, you can make average 7-8g per hour (sometimes little less, sometimes more). Personally, I salvage all except exotics worth 1g or more. you get lots of T6 mats, and with salvage, you’ll get lots of silk. You get lots of blues and greens as drops. You also get dropped silver plus whatever silver you get in the champ bags/boxes. If I do the champ train Saturday and Sunday morning for a few hours I will net about 50g.

Ahh cool. That’s where I’m going wrong then. I’m still leveling all Crafting so I always just deposit all to my collection where ever I go.

Thanks, I will do Frostgorge soon. I’ve been running the Queensdale one.

I don’t see anything wrong with Lankybrit’s statements.

Just because you think the QD train was a bad thing in the game doesn’t mean you’re somehow bad for doing it. I think that adding Ascended gear was bad, but I’m still getting it for my characters.

timmyf.1490:

I don’t see anything wrong with Lankybrit’s statements.

Just because you think the QD train was a bad thing in the game doesn’t mean you’re somehow bad for doing it. I think that adding Ascended gear was bad, but I’m still getting it for my characters.

It’s about the inconsistency. “People shouldn’t do trains they should do x,y,z.” Yet he does the train.

JustTrogdor.7892:

timmyf.1490:

I don’t see anything wrong with Lankybrit’s statements.

Just because you think the QD train was a bad thing in the game doesn’t mean you’re somehow bad for doing it. I think that adding Ascended gear was bad, but I’m still getting it for my characters.

It’s about the inconsistency. “People shouldn’t do trains they should do x,y,z.” Yet he does the train.

That’s not what Lankybrit is saying. Or at least it’s not what I’m saying.

If the train exists, I understand people will do it. Fine.

What we’ve asked is that *ArenaNet remove the train in some manner*. Those are different. I’m not blaming players for doing the super easy very rewarding content. It’s super easy and very rewarding, why wouldn’t you? (imho it’s BORING so I only did it a bit.)

But it’s also disruptive, teaches players bad habits, and presents a bad face for the game. So we had wanted it changed or removed or something.