What if GW2 had Trinity - but it also didn't?

What if GW2 had Trinity - but it also didn't?

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Posted by: Belenwyn.8674

Belenwyn.8674

Go play dungeons without ANY supportive traits or skills. I want to giggle.

BTW meta is usually the most efficient way to achieve the goal. Show me a trinity game without meta builds/party compositions. I dare, I double dare you.

Since people even claim support build are the meta and support plays the dominant role people should run dungeons exclusively with supportive (weapon)skills and traits. No damage causing utilities and elites are slotted.

All full Berserker groups are like that. Maximizing party Support and party Damage at the same time.

With Berserker you can’t have maximized party support – optimized is possible. Power and ferocity are not increasing your support. Precision does it indirect if it triggers boons. There are much better runes/sigils/crests to increase the supportive abilities. The current encounters favor support and control to a certain amount. Beyond it you wasted any further addition. In the case of damage each further increase increases your efficiency – assumed support and control keep their optimised levels.

We need therefore encounters that favor a certain amount of damage and an as maximised as possible supportive potential. You would still run builds maximised for party support and damage at the same time. You would only use different weapons traits, skills and runes/siglis/etc.

The lack of a strict trinity offers so many more kinds of encounters than a trinity system can ever offer. A trinity system with DPS as one component requires encounters with damage as a role. Otherwise the DPS classes can do nothing. Each trinity-based encounter has to offer each component of the trinity. In GW2 without trinity we can design encounters without any or only a very small damage part as well as encounters without any (major) control or support component.

What if GW2 had Trinity - but it also didn't?

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Posted by: Thaddeus.4891

Thaddeus.4891

With Berserker you can’t have maximized party support – optimized is possible. Power and ferocity are not increasing your support. Precision does it indirect if it triggers boons. There are much better runes/sigils/crests to increase the supportive abilities. The current encounters favor support and control to a certain amount. Beyond it you wasted any further addition. In the case of damage each further increase increases your efficiency – assumed support and control keep their optimised levels.

We need therefore encounters that favor a certain amount of damage and an as maximised as possible supportive potential. You would still run builds maximised for party support and damage at the same time. You would only use different weapons traits, skills and runes/siglis/etc.

The lack of a strict trinity offers so many more kinds of encounters than a trinity system can ever offer. A trinity system with DPS as one component requires encounters with damage as a role. Otherwise the DPS classes can do nothing. Each trinity-based encounter has to offer each component of the trinity. In GW2 without trinity we can design encounters without any or only a very small damage part as well as encounters without any (major) control or support component.

Who talked about maximixing support? We don’t want to maximize support as much as we don’t want to maximize dps. We want hard content that need both.

Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD

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Posted by: segman.3560

segman.3560

We need therefore encounters that favor a certain amount of damage and an as maximised as possible supportive potential.

I don’t need any full support encounter. So where is this “we” in your statement? Unless you have any community privilages speak only for yourself. Thank you.

Oh and again:
DPS GEAR =/= DPS BUILD

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

Go play dungeons without ANY supportive traits or skills. I want to giggle.

BTW meta is usually the most efficient way to achieve the goal. Show me a trinity game without meta builds/party compositions. I dare, I double dare you.

Since people even claim support build are the meta and support plays the dominant role people should run dungeons exclusively with supportive (weapon)skills and traits. No damage causing utilities and elites are slotted.

All full Berserker groups are like that. Maximizing party Support and party Damage at the same time.

With Berserker you can’t have maximized party support – optimized is possible. Power and ferocity are not increasing your support. Precision does it indirect if it triggers boons. There are much better runes/sigils/crests to increase the supportive abilities. The current encounters favor support and control to a certain amount. Beyond it you wasted any further addition. In the case of damage each further increase increases your efficiency – assumed support and control keep their optimised levels.

We need therefore encounters that favor a certain amount of damage and an as maximised as possible supportive potential. You would still run builds maximised for party support and damage at the same time. You would only use different weapons traits, skills and runes/siglis/etc.

The lack of a strict trinity offers so many more kinds of encounters than a trinity system can ever offer. A trinity system with DPS as one component requires encounters with damage as a role. Otherwise the DPS classes can do nothing. Each trinity-based encounter has to offer each component of the trinity. In GW2 without trinity we can design encounters without any or only a very small damage part as well as encounters without any (major) control or support component.

gear =! build, you can support without supporting gear.

What if GW2 had Trinity - but it also didn't?

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Posted by: Bryzy.2719

Bryzy.2719

The original OP already tried this earlier this week : https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Will-PvE-give-more-value-to-support-builds

Please check the forum rules – posting for the same thing over and over again is like flogging a dead horse. It still won’t move or go any faster

If you’d actually READ THE THREAD, you would have seen:

Lazaar.9123:

Isn’t this just the exact same topic of your other thread that was locked?

Bryzy.2719:

Nah, that one was more specific to support builds, and in that thread I was expressing my own opinion as to what I wanted to see in the game. This thread’s purpose is to gain an understanding of what profession systems could be in the game, and how those theoretical systems would be perceived by the community. No opinion from OP.
Also, that thread wasn’t locked because of the topic. It was locked because of the heated debate that was started by respondents. Kindly refrain from bringing any ad hominem or aggravating posts into this one.


I fear that members of this community are so entrenched in their own agendas, and so quick to aggressively defend their personal ideologies, that they are trying to oppose an OP who isn’t even expressing opinion in this thread. Yes, I have expressed opinions that you may not agree with elsewhere, but this thread holds no opinions from me. Did you ignore the all-caps “DISCLAIMER”, alongside the multiple other sentences saying “this is not an opinion” in the original post? Jesus christ.

(edited by Bryzy.2719)

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Posted by: tboneking.2531

tboneking.2531

therefore allowing for at least 3 builds per profession instead of the current one.

And this statement right here is why people should l2p before QQing about “meta”.
I would bother to explain why, but last time i got called a fascist so.. GL.

How is this argument even thing. Im not complaining about difficulty, and Ive mastered my multiple classes. Literally nothing in this post has to do with competency.

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Posted by: WyldKat.4712

WyldKat.4712

To me, the Trinity will always be Big Daddy, Junior and the Spook.

I’m goin’ to Hell in a Black Lion Chest.

Zestee, Cryptician Zetti, Zissi The Jack, Zi Mao,
Ziffy Snidehide, Zadie Hawkkin, Zannie Oakley, Zuulja
[ODIN],[NaCl] – Tarnished Coast

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

therefore allowing for at least 3 builds per profession instead of the current one.

And this statement right here is why people should l2p before QQing about “meta”.
I would bother to explain why, but last time i got called a fascist so.. GL.

How is this argument even thing. Im not complaining about difficulty, and Ive mastered my multiple classes. Literally nothing in this post has to do with competency.

Because professions do swap around.

My thief for example I’ll start say Arah p1 with Smokescreen/SR + other, Using Shortbow. We’ll stealth up, i’ll spin to win the Orrian Turrets and swap to D/D and slip my signets in with SR still up there.

Pull/kill the Ooze, drop SR, swap into my stealthing stuff asap meaning get a pistol off hand, shortbow, Blinding Powder, Smoke Screen, and SR. We get our chest and hopefully avoid oozes, run up stealth to the next boss, if I can I’ll even change traits to get shorter cooldown and +1s on stealth.

Then I swap in Invigorating precision get my Sword in, round up the Ghostly Aboms stack up the buff, again spin to win to kill them quickly.

Run to Tar, swap in Panic Strike, have my sword as well as D/D setup, swap in Needle Trap and Devourer Venom if immob is an issue. Pull/kill the tar down, start an Immob rotation, finish it off. Off and rolling.

Swap back to my DPS setup but with Pistol offhand for blinds, kill the Hunter and his group while they’re blinded and maybe smoke screen to block his projectiles that get through the blinds. Stealth up get to the 2 Aboms, blind them while we kill and we’re at Lupi.

Now I go 56030 for dodges and have D/D and S/P weapon setup, 2 signets and shadowstep. Go kill Lupi.

Off to stealth getup again meaning 56300 SR/Smokescreen/blinding powder and pull the shortbow back out and all that. Stealth through to the Jotun and then wreck him.

Through it I’m using 4 weapon setups, half a dozen utilities. Multiple trait allocations.

Where is the problem? On other professions I’m doing the same type of thing rotating my build around to maximize my benefit to the group.

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Posted by: Thaddeus.4891

Thaddeus.4891

Never though of panic strike for Tar

For the Ooze I take shadow trap and SR. I prepare a trap next to the NPC, my whole group stack on the Ooze when he die, I SR and take the orb, take back my trap and give immediatly the orb to the npc. This way there is no ooze spawing, its easier to stealth in one shot the next run when there is no oozes shooting everywhere.

Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

Never though of panic strike for Tar

For the Ooze I take shadow trap and SR. I prepare a trap next to the NPC, my whole group stack on the Ooze when he die, I SR and take the orb, take back my trap and give immediatly the orb to the npc. This way there is no ooze spawing, its easier to stealth in one shot the next run when there is no oozes shooting everywhere.

Ohh that’s nice. Btw is there a timer on Shadow trap as far as how long it lasts, I know it seems like quite some time.

And Iris told me about panic strike, I honestly had never even looked at it before XD

What if GW2 had Trinity - but it also didn't?

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Posted by: Bernie.8674

Bernie.8674

So “trinity”, in my understanding, is the game mechanic in an MMO which means that you choose a certain profession or class depending on which role you want to play – DPS/Tank/Healer. You are then stuck to that role. You may be able to try other roles as that profession, but you would be inefficient in performing it: for example, a cleric/sage character trying to perform a DPS role.

By that definition, GW2 is trinity-capable. Some classes can choose a tanking or healing route. However, I don’t think your definition is correct because it relates to only one player picking from one of three roles. The trinity refers to the idea that a given group must have the complete trinity’s worth of roles in order to be successful at group activities. That is not the case here. Content can be completed by a group of players who are all specced for DPS. Furthermore, having everyone go all out for DPS is often the quickest way to complete the content. In that environment, anyone choosing to tank or heal is effectively a liability to the group.

However, what the game doesn’t currently have (I repeat – this is not a request for change – just observation) as far as I can tell is content that may require some players in a team to alter their builds to fulfill certain roles in a team – e.g. some players may need to change to support-focusing builds so that every member of the team can stay alive.

In other words, the game doesn’t have the trinity.

Now this sounds like trinity, I know, because it would be a requirement of tank/heal-support/DPS elements within the game. But is it? Referring to my definition of trinity (as I understand it) – trinity means you are STUCK in that role for your whole game experience. But in GW2, you wouldn’t be. Given the profession/build system, you would have the choice as to whether or not you were the member of the team who became the tank or the DPSer, for example.

By your definition WoW doesn’t have a trinity either because you can change specs when you’re out of combat. Furthermore, some classes (monk, druid, and shaman) have all three roles available. So no one is locked into a specific role. That’s why I don’t think your definition is correct. The trinity does not apply in the context of a single player and the choices available to them. It applies to the group as a whole. If all three roles are required for the group to succeed then the trinity is in place. Individual choices are irrelevant.

What if all that had to change for these roles to be created was future PvE content?

I think you’re stating the obvious here. The big debate is not regarding whether they can or can’t support the trinity. It’s over whether or not they should. Where you lie on that side of the debate is primarily a function of whether or not you enjoy the other roles.

Now that I’ve confused myself thoroughly, does this make sense to anyone or am I just tired and need a nap?

A nap now and then never hurt anyone!

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Posted by: Thaddeus.4891

Thaddeus.4891

Ohh that’s nice. Btw is there a timer on Shadow trap as far as how long it lasts, I know it seems like quite some time.

And Iris told me about panic strike, I honestly had never even looked at it before XD

The timer is 2min. With a good group that’s enough to kill the Ooze, when I’m not sure of my group I take Hide in Shadow to stealth myself when the ooze is at 50% hp so he don’t follow me as I go put my trap.

Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD

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Posted by: DavidH.7380

DavidH.7380

I honestly dont see why everyone thinks that adding a little bit of a need for build diversity would be a bad thing. Whats actually wrong with needing one out of five people to fill a support role? We’re not creating these posts because we’re “bad at the game” or “need to learn my class”. I have four level 80s decked out in Zerker gear, and its freaking boring. Having the same exact role, and only one required build for each class in PvE content? This is seriously what you people prefer over the trinity? If the majority of opponents of build diversity being more of a required aspect of the game can’t come up with better arguments than “learn your class” or “play a different game” than I would say that there are very few solid arguments to be made.

Having zerker stats doesn’t mean you are going to be DPS focused. That’s why people need guardians in their groups for the defensive support. That’s why you need ele for the highest dps and Warriors for their offensive support. Other classes fit in the meta too, however, some are better than others in Pve and the same goes for Pvp.
….
There is nothing called ‘’GW2 is only about DPS’’. Every class in GW2 is a DPS, a healer and a support at the same time. Some are better than others at one of these specs in addition to other unique mechanics that may make one of the classes more rewarding than other.

But it does seem to me that there is something fundamentally similar about all the professions that makes them feel more or less the same to many people, and I wonder if that is more the “active playstyle” than the lack of the trinity itself.

It doesn’t seem like there is any practical way to get out of the playstyle of attacking, and dodging, and supporting. You can’t stand safely out of the fight and ranged DPS or spam heal. You can’t stand toe-to-toe with a boss and face tank him while mocking what a weak little kitten he is. I don’t think there is any way to say, “you go ahead and attack that boss and dodge and stuff… I’m just gonna stand here in the back and buff/heal/control/ranged DPS from safety” or “y’all better dodge, but I don’t have to ‘cause I’m a TANK baby!”

I have no idea how accurate that is, but I sometimes wonder if that is a big chunk of the motivation for people who want more dedicated support or trinity in the game.

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Posted by: Thaddeus.4891

Thaddeus.4891

But it does seem to me that there is something fundamentally similar about all the professions that makes them feel more or less the same to many people, and I wonder if that is more the “active playstyle” than the lack of the trinity itself.

It doesn’t seem like there is any practical way to get out of the playstyle of attacking, and dodging, and supporting. You can’t stand safely out of the fight and ranged DPS or spam heal. You can’t stand toe-to-toe with a boss and face tank him while mocking what a weak little kitten he is. I don’t think there is any way to say, “you go ahead and attack that boss and dodge and stuff… I’m just gonna stand here in the back and buff/heal/control/ranged DPS from safety” or “y’all better dodge, but I don’t have to ‘cause I’m a TANK baby!”

I have no idea how accurate that is, but I sometimes wonder if that is a big chunk of the motivation for people who want more dedicated support or trinity in the game.

You are spot on. Trinity attract certain ppl because they love that role and there is nothing wrong with that. GW2 attract other kind of ppl because its gameplay. They are both good concept that different ppl like or not and its ok.

Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD

(edited by Thaddeus.4891)

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Posted by: Dinks.2478

Dinks.2478

tl;dr
Meta builds already use heavy support synergy. A good example is the current Phalanx Strength warrior who sacrifices a lot of damage output to be able to stack might and vulnerability. Guardians who sacrifice damage to be able to cleanse condition/reflect/etc.. really whatever the party is missing. Etc etc etc.

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Posted by: SonOfJacob.7396

SonOfJacob.7396

Therefore all you want is me to not do what I’m doing now which is doing all 3 things at the same time but you want others to specialize in different builds so I have to look for other ppl with specialized builds if I’m not playing one. This is wrong and creating such a role focused gameplay will backfire because trust me, in terms of trinity gameplay we have much better titles on the market already.

This game is better (for me) because it’s different.

Agreed. Interestingly, I read this part of the comment and the word “specialized” stood out to me. I thought of two upcoming things in the expansion:

1) https://heartofthorns.guildwars2.com/en/?_ga=1.100927937.1947409418.1422993689#section-masteries

2) https://heartofthorns.guildwars2.com/en/?_ga=1.100927937.1947409418.1422993689#section-specializations