Guild Wars 2

Now that I have your attention…

I’m not trying to troll anyone; this is an honest and sincere question intended to reflect critically on the nature of the Manifesto that everyone keeps quoting. I’ve been keeping up with the debate for a few days now, and despite my mixed feelings on this subject, I’m trying to make sense of what seems to be a powerful split in the community.

Nearly every argument that criticizes the recent Lost Shores patch and the addition of Ascended armor cites the GW2 Manifesto—the document which outlines ANet’s vision with the game, and articulates the underlying design philosophy. The addition of a new tier of gear, critics argue, and the introduction of a “gating” mechanic (Infusion) violates a basic premise of the Manifesto—that the rarity of a gear should not be defined by stats but by appearance, and you shouldn’t need to grind away at gear in order to have fun in a dungeon.

I’m not here to argue the small details: the 8% stat difference, the availability of Ascended in WvWvW, the readily available Infusions. I’d like to submit to you a question about the bigger picture, which is:

What if the Manifesto is wrong? What if some of the principles expressed in the Manifesto may seem attractive in rhetoric, but are realistically impractical?

Consider the following points:

1. A Manifesto Is Not A Binding Contract

By definition, a Manifesto is an expression of beliefs. It is a document that collates and expresses the philosophy that motivates a particular group to do what it does. In this case, ANet’s Manifesto is an expression of ANet’s highest ideal, of what they think the ideal MMO should feel like and should play like. You don’t see any specifics in a Manifesto; you just see ideologies. There are no quarterly design plans. There are no projections of future projects. In short, a Manifesto is wishful thinking. It’s an ideal pursued by the design company, but sometimes pragmatism requires compromising ideology and finding a middle ground.

If ANet did go back on one aspect of their Manifesto, presumably they did so consciously. Presumably it was a calculated risk. It’s possible that, ideally, rare gear would be defined by rare skins, rather than better stats. However, in practice, reality may have proved that rare skins just aren’t a fun enough incentive to run dungeons, and players do need some kind of tangible motivator, some actual upgrade to chase. Which leads me to my next point.

2. An MMO Is (probably) Defined By Gear Progression

Actually, Action-RPGs are defined by gear progression as well, so it’s probably safer to say that MMORPGs are defined by having large, vibrant worlds that support big populations, which create incentives for play by offering gear progression.

It’s true that ANet’s design Manifesto claimed otherwise—that gear progression was a backward and un-fun gameplay model, and players should be encouraged to play the game for something other than an abstract, impossible-to-reach carrot that was constantly out of reach. ANet wanted to create the first true post-WoW MMORPG by breaking out of vertical gear progression. And maybe the problem is that it failed.

Bear with me for a second. It may be hard to swallow, and it may be difficult to accept, but what if, just maybe, gear progression is an inevitable reality of a successful MMO? Is it not possible that, if we hate gear progression, we should probably not be playing MMORPGs, in the same way that if we hate loot pinatas, we should probably not be playing Diablo? I want to submit to you the possibility that gear progression is just a fact of MMORPGs, inescapable and inherent to the genre.

I’m not saying this to discourage you, but to just be brutally honest about the whole thing. Every MMORPG has loot progression. All of them. They all create incentive by allowing your character to get better and better, and stronger and stronger, over time. MMORPGs are a carrot on a stick that you chase down a road constantly being paved by the designers. They just are. Until someone comes up with a way to totally undermine that basic principle, this is the definition of the MMORPG. And if you don’t like gear progression, then it may very well be that MMORPGs are not the right genre for you.

3. All Types Of Progression Are Important: Vertical and Horizontal

This is a reference to something said by Lead Designer Isaiah Cartwright in a Kotaku interview. All forms of progression are important. Vertical progression for those who want it. Horizontal progression for those who want it.

(Horizontal progression is defined as progressing through the game by achieving different, broader goals which do not include a statistical component—more weapon skins, more areas to explore, more titles to get. Vertical progression is defined as progressing through the game by become statistically better, and having stronger stats, stronger powers, stronger gear.)

In other words, gear progression is here to stay. It’s a fact of GW2. The reason it’s here to stay is because the developers have stated that they want the game to be as inclusive as possible to all types of players. There’s going to be more gear-independent content for those who want it (i.e, world events like Lost Shores), and there’s going to be more and better gear for those who want it (i.e, Ascended Armor, and whatever’s coming in the future.)

So the question is not whether or not Ascended armor is going to go away (it’s not) or if gear progression is going to go away (it’s not). Gear progression is here to stay because this is an MMO, and if ANet defines GW2 as an MMORPG and GW1 as a CORPG, then it follows that GW2 will include the tropes that define an MMORPG—including gear progression.

So the question is not whether or not GW2 will have gear progression—it does, and it will, and it will continue to progress over time, through expansions and new content.

The question, however, is whether that gear progression will be prohibitively inaccessible as it was in WoW, in which getting new gear meant raiding, meant showing up 3-4 times a week and grinding out instances for upgrades. ANet doesn’t want this. They want gear progression to be there for everybody, to be available for everybody, and to be open to you even if you aren’t a hardcore player.

TLDR Version

• The Manifesto is not a binding contract; it is by definition an expression of an ideology. It’s somewhere between PR and Design Philosophy, but it is not set in stone. If we insist that GW2 broke its own Manifesto, all ANet has to do is demonstrate that Ascended gear was a success in order to demonstrate that the Manifesto was wrong.

• Gear Progression is accepted de facto as essential to MMORPGs. The Manifesto described a game that wasn’t an MMO. GW2 was, and is, an MMO.

• The question is not whether or not your gear should get better: the question is whether or not improving your gear and progressing your game is accessible and fun without feeling like a second job.

• It’s natural to feel betrayed, upset and angry. I totally, absolutely sympathize. But it’s probably not constructive to linger on it and hold a grudge. Look at the big picture, and be philosophical about this.

Please, please try to keep responses constructive. As a disclaimer, I am not taking sides in the Hardcore vs Casual argument, and I’m not at all trying to keep people from voicing very valid complaints about this game. I’m just encouraging the community to be philosophical about the issue and try to look at the big picture in a rational way.

Its not only the manifesto… but interwiev and others blogpost it was stated that they were creating an MMO with gear treadmill (aka gear progression)…

so i know that you not a troll, and you always want to be positive but no.
we arent the ones that have mislead words… Go to read the blog, look some interview… all misleading? i dont think so…

MMORPG = gear progression?
no… its not MMORPG its only and acronym, they have advertise something that NOW its not true, and they dont try to explain something. Can you say that someone its not lying if he keep silence?
So they if they call it mmorpg ok… but they stated clearly what they were creating! in more than an occasion.(not only in the 2010 manifesto, but even after.)

The Manifesto is not a binding contract; it is by definition an expression of an ideology. It’s somewhere between PR and Design Philosophy, but it is not set in stone. If we insist that GW2 broke its own Manifesto, all ANet has to do is demonstrate that Ascended gear was a success in order to demonstrate that the Manifesto was wrong.

manifesto its not a contrat,but is advertising. Remeber that advertise something, and sell something else, is called fraud.

Your premises are incorrect but I wont bother.
However had they come out and said something that population is slowing and internal metrics arent being met and they have come to the conclusion that their hypothesis was wrong and for the good of the players and the game they need to institute a change.

I would probably be still playing. It was how it was done also – they attempted to stealth it in and lie about it. Obfuscate and then put their head in the sand without acknowledging it. That is very wrong.
Be frank up front with the community and You will usually get the support and understanding. If they weren’t making the revenue required then say it.
You try to be wow you fail – the evidence is there so why try. It doesnt matter now anyways – it is over. I care it is unfortunate but I did like the game a lot.

Arshay Duskbrow.1306:

With apologists like you willing to swallow whatever they dish out and then defend it, who needs PR personnel? You’re doing exactly what NCSoft wants you to do.

I think people are taking everything waaaaaaaaay to serious. The Manifesto, the new gear, balance, casual vs. hardcore, farming this vs that. Some people in these forums sound like religious zealots do! All this over a game!
Yeah I know, you love the game and so do I, but I think some people need to take a break and let things just flow.

Eveningstar.6940:

• Gear progression is as essential to an MMORPG as copious loot drops is to an Action RPG and jumping and climbing are to Platformers and combos are to Fighting Games. It’s just a part of the genre.

No, it’s part of a design model.

Please go research MMORPGs and the history of the subgenre, before making blanket statements about it. There have been many models. I personally played an MMORPG for several years that didn’t have any gear progression or loot to speak of.

So stating that ‘gear progression is essential to the subgenre’ is demonstrably false.

If you want to have a serious dialogue, I think you ought start it that way. I’d suggest you do your homework. There’s about 20 years of background that you should be at least casually familiar with.

I have to strongly disagree with the theory that a MMORPG is defined by gear progression. Gear progression is just an easy way to simulate content and difficulty, it’s not necessary.

I think some people need to take a break

Oh I’m taking a break alright. A permanent one.

Just commenting on point one (1). There is no doubt what the spirit of manifesto is – no gear progression. Sure, you can poke holes with semantics and make any sort of ad hoc explanations on it, but general gist of that manifesto was well understood all over. I certainly didn’t see any corrections made when reviewers and customers alike wrote that GW2 will not have gear grinding. At minimum, announcements that in fact overwhelming majority of people have misunderstood the manifesto would have been warranted if it had been known that there would be another tier of gear that would make current maximum gear “obsolete”.

To the people who are saying “I didn’t buy this game to grind dungeons I just wanted to stroll about in the world and do my thing and enjoy dynamic events la la la”…

Are you actually doing that? Are you actually going back to zones and re-experiencing the events and the world? Or is this just an ideal that you wish you could do, but never actually could get yourself to do?

Maybe this is why Anet is being flexible now with their original philosophy, because they see that despite their own ideals of having players go out into the world and just “having fun” people simply don’t do that anymore.

i really dont understand the hate. wow they introduced a new tier of gear and a amazing dungeon that all players can participate in…so what? grow up. obviously they thought they can do more with the game. is it gear progression? no. is it fun? hell yes. best new dungeon hands down. stop being so negative. my god. “OMG MANIFESTO MANIFESTO MANIFESTO” Hey guess what? things change. welcome to reality.

All speculation without evidence. Which has how this whole argument has gone on the forums:
– People post things saying that they are worried/angry about Ascended gear.
– Someone steps up to defend ANET and tries to say why we shouldn’t worry.
– Someone posts details of Ascended gear. The numbers they show consistently make Ascended gear look worse.
– ANET stays silent.

Do you have any evidence for your speculations ?
Or are you just trying to defend ANET despite the evidence ?

Bear with me for a second. It may be hard to swallow, and it may be difficult to accept, but what if, just maybe, gear progression is an inevitable reality of a successful MMO?

Are you saying that Guild Wars 1 wasn’t successful ?
Sure, it’s not an MMO. But it was treated as one by a lot of players, so it’s close enough for this comparison.

Doesn’t matter. Anet lied.

gwawer.9805:

To the people who are saying “I didn’t buy this game to grind dungeons I just wanted to stroll about in the world and do my thing and enjoy dynamic events la la la”…

Are you actually doing that? Are you actually going back to zones and re-experiencing the events and the world? Or is this just an ideal that you wish you could do, but never actually could get yourself to do?

Maybe this is why Anet is being flexible now with their original philosophy, because they see that despite their own ideals of having players go out into the world and just “having fun” people simply don’t do that anymore.

Yes I was.

no they didnt lie they introduced a new mechanic to satisfy more people. majority of people like it. sorry you dont.

gwawer.9805:

To the people who are saying “I didn’t buy this game to grind dungeons I just wanted to stroll about in the world and do my thing and enjoy dynamic events la la la”…

Are you actually doing that? Are you actually going back to zones and re-experiencing the events and the world? Or is this just an ideal that you wish you could do, but never actually could get yourself to do?

…

Yes I did and I enjoyed it. If you didn’t do it, then do not arrogantly assume that nobody else did either.

Statements, claims, and that Manifesto is why I believed in this game. This was the direction that really impressed me and one of the main reasons why I pre-ordered it. I don’t normally pre-order games but I did in this case. I saw thier vision they once had and it struck a chord with me. It was like that shining beckon in the stagnant murk of the MMO genre. Now they go back on 5 years promises and broke it in one single devestating patch.

No, no I don’t think this is right. Nothing anyone says can convince me other wise.

If I wanted to play a gear treadmill, I would go play that other game and or all it’s other clones. GW2 was supposed to be unique and it was up until this patch. That is wrong, so very wrong.

But whatever, the screaming minority from that other game won and that’s that. But on the plus side, after they demolish this content in a week or two; they will leave after they get bored again and or start moaning about how there is nothing do do. So the vicious circle begins.

@Hydrophidian:

I’ve played a lot of MMORPGs over the years. I’m not discounting what you say, but my experience has been more or less consistent with my claim that gear progression is a defining element of the MMORPG. If you have any examples of games that refute this point, please let me know. This isn’t sarcasm—it is a sincere request.

@Snoring Sleepwalker:

I can back up my points if you’d like. I thought I did, but I can clarify. Is there a part of my post that you feel requires more evidence? Also, I’m not saying that GW1 wasn’t successful. I played and loved GW1. I’m saying it wasn’t an MMO.

And that’s my entire point. I’m submitting to you the possibility that gear progression is a basic, fundamental assumption in MMO design. I’m not making any value judgements about whether or not this is a good thing; I’m saying it is what it is, owing to patterns observed in dozens of MMORPGs released in the last ten years.

GW1 is a fine game. It’s not an MMORPG by ANet’s own definition.

My argument is that if ANet wanted to rid itself of gear progression, it shouldn’t have tried so hard to embrace all the other tropes of MMORPGs. GW2 resembles other MMOs in many, many ways. If it really wanted to do away with gear progression, it should’ve been a lot more like GW1.

ckeeton.4907:

no they didnt lie they introduced a new mechanic to satisfy more people. majority of people like it. sorry you dont.

It does not matter if majority or even if all would like it, basic premise is that they did go back on their statements. Got sales promising something else what the product then turned out to be. That is the core of this thread, not if you like this change.

Buyed the game because of the manifesto !
Was sick and tired of the other 3000 elite vertical progression dungeon mmorpg’s.
(average playtime other mmorpgs 2 weeks, lineage2 pre GOD 7 years )

With the 180 philosophy change i will just play the game if it where prepatch !
(forget expansions and gems sales)

How can it be “wrong” when many, many people obviously want to play that way? Maybe it isn’t “profitable.” (More likely I suspect it merely less profitable short-term). But… wrong? Seriously?

If by new mechanic you mean gear treadmill then yes, they did add a new mechanic

If Anet really decided that Manifesto is wrong (or just impossible for them to realize), let them say so in plain text. I will be gone from this game then with no hard feelings.

Just don’t try to deceive anyone.

Bogey.5423:

ckeeton.4907:

no they didnt lie they introduced a new mechanic to satisfy more people. majority of people like it. sorry you dont.

It does not matter if majority or even if all would like it, basic premise is that they did go back on their statements. Got sales promising something else what the product then turned out to be. That is the core of this thread, not if you like this change.

hey it isnt arenanet’s fault you people speculate the game is turning into a gear grind. if you actually tried the new dungeons, they incorporate fun gameplay with great design. the game is about having fun. might wanna try that

Fortuna.7259:

How can it be “wrong” when many, many people obviously want to play that way? Maybe it isn’t “profitable.” (More likely I suspect it merely less profitable short-term). But… wrong? Seriously?

I want to play that way, but I need to make something clear.

I’m not saying it’s not going to damage Anet’s credibility that they broke their manifesto. They did, and it hurts.

What I am saying is that their manifesto was probably unrealistic considering how they designed their game. Their Manifesto describes a game that isn’t an MMO. They made an MMO.

If they wanted to follow their Manifesto more closely, they shouldn’t have designed GW2 to look and feel and play like a classic, run of the mill MMO. But they did. Consequently, some elements of their Manifesto proved wrong in practice.

That’s the argument I’m presenting.

No, I don’t want to do a forced dungeon treadmill.

Think dungeons suck here, but that’s just me I guess.

Allow me to craft this junk, buy it with karma, or let me get it in Wv3. You know, like before.

Snoring Sleepwalker.9073:

gwawer.9805:

To the people who are saying “I didn’t buy this game to grind dungeons I just wanted to stroll about in the world and do my thing and enjoy dynamic events la la la”…

Are you actually doing that? Are you actually going back to zones and re-experiencing the events and the world? Or is this just an ideal that you wish you could do, but never actually could get yourself to do?

Maybe this is why Anet is being flexible now with their original philosophy, because they see that despite their own ideals of having players go out into the world and just “having fun” people simply don’t do that anymore.

Yes I was.

I was as well. Am I allowed to feel pity for people that don’t do “having fun” in their games any more? No wonder MMO’s are such garbage.

ckeeton.4907:

Bogey.5423:

ckeeton.4907:

no they didnt lie they introduced a new mechanic to satisfy more people. majority of people like it. sorry you dont.

It does not matter if majority or even if all would like it, basic premise is that they did go back on their statements. Got sales promising something else what the product then turned out to be. That is the core of this thread, not if you like this change.

hey it isnt arenanet’s fault you people speculate the game is turning into a gear grind. if you actually tried the new dungeons, they incorporate fun gameplay with great design. the game is about having fun. might wanna try that

Why do you need new gear to have fun?

Esturk.2183:

ckeeton.4907:

Bogey.5423:

ckeeton.4907:

no they didnt lie they introduced a new mechanic to satisfy more people. majority of people like it. sorry you dont.

It does not matter if majority or even if all would like it, basic premise is that they did go back on their statements. Got sales promising something else what the product then turned out to be. That is the core of this thread, not if you like this change.

hey it isnt arenanet’s fault you people speculate the game is turning into a gear grind. if you actually tried the new dungeons, they incorporate fun gameplay with great design. the game is about having fun. might wanna try that

Why do you need new gear to have fun?

i never said i needed gear to have fun. i said that doing the dungeons itself is fun. getting gear is just an added bonus. it isnt a big deal. it really isnt. if you arent having fun doing the dungeons themselves and are worried about gear then thats your problem. for people who are getting mad about a new tier of gear when they said gear doesnt matter to them, they sure get mad easily

ckeeton.4907:

hey it isnt arenanet’s fault you people speculate the game is turning into a gear grind. if you actually tried the new dungeons, they incorporate fun gameplay with great design. the game is about having fun. might wanna try that

You are still not understanding the basic premise or you are making strawman arguments on purpose. Does not matter if new dungeon is heaven on earth, in fact they did promise that there would not be vertical progression, but now there is. If it is constant thing or one time thing doesn’t matter, it is there now and it is not what was promised.

Eveningstar.6940:

I can back up my points if you’d like. I thought I did, but I can clarify. Is there a part of my post that you feel requires more evidence?

Do so. I don’t see any evidence from you, just speculation. By evidence I’m talking about links to elsewhere so I don’t have to take you at your word.

Another question: If the manifesto was wrong, why hasn’t ANET come out and said that it was wrong ?
If they do, I expect that most of the people complaining about the gear grind will just leave and the controversy will die overnight.

ckeeton.4907:

Esturk.2183:

ckeeton.4907:

Bogey.5423:

ckeeton.4907:

no they didnt lie they introduced a new mechanic to satisfy more people. majority of people like it. sorry you dont.

It does not matter if majority or even if all would like it, basic premise is that they did go back on their statements. Got sales promising something else what the product then turned out to be. That is the core of this thread, not if you like this change.

hey it isnt arenanet’s fault you people speculate the game is turning into a gear grind. if you actually tried the new dungeons, they incorporate fun gameplay with great design. the game is about having fun. might wanna try that

Why do you need new gear to have fun?

i never said i needed gear to have fun. i said that doing the dungeons itself is fun. getting gear is just an added bonus. it isnt a big deal. it really isnt. if you arent having fun doing the dungeons themselves and are worried about gear then thats your problem. for people who are getting mad about a new tier of gear when they said gear doesnt matter to them, they sure get mad easily

Then we might as well just not have a new tier of gear. Since it’s just an added bonus. Everyone is happy.

Eveningstar they advertised a game and changed it within 2 and a half months to be the exact opposite. It’s really that simple.

Do we blame them for doing it? No. They’re a company. They make games to make money. But we will not play this kitteny game anymore It doesn’t matter who’s right or wrong, they falsely advertised we’re getting out, and if possible we’re getting a refund. Which conveniently they will not give to the earliest prepurchasers who bought into the manifesto.

Yup, they are refusing refunds to anyone who believed they might have told the truth.

Bogey.5423:

ckeeton.4907:

hey it isnt arenanet’s fault you people speculate the game is turning into a gear grind. if you actually tried the new dungeons, they incorporate fun gameplay with great design. the game is about having fun. might wanna try that

You are still not understanding the basic premise or you are making strawman arguments on purpose. Does not matter if new dungeon is heaven on earth, in fact they did promise that there would not be vertical progression, but now there is. If it is constant thing or one time thing doesn’t matter, it is there now and it is not what was promised.

they never said they would never add it either so that argument can go both ways. wow theres vertical progression omg worlds going to end because someone has better gear then i do. i really dont care about having the best gear if im HAVING FUN.

Esturk.2183:

ckeeton.4907:

Esturk.2183:

ckeeton.4907:

Bogey.5423:

ckeeton.4907:

no they didnt lie they introduced a new mechanic to satisfy more people. majority of people like it. sorry you dont.

It does not matter if majority or even if all would like it, basic premise is that they did go back on their statements. Got sales promising something else what the product then turned out to be. That is the core of this thread, not if you like this change.

hey it isnt arenanet’s fault you people speculate the game is turning into a gear grind. if you actually tried the new dungeons, they incorporate fun gameplay with great design. the game is about having fun. might wanna try that

Why do you need new gear to have fun?

i never said i needed gear to have fun. i said that doing the dungeons itself is fun. getting gear is just an added bonus. it isnt a big deal. it really isnt. if you arent having fun doing the dungeons themselves and are worried about gear then thats your problem. for people who are getting mad about a new tier of gear when they said gear doesnt matter to them, they sure get mad easily

Then we might as well just not have a new tier of gear. Since it’s just an added bonus. Everyone is happy.

that makes no sense at all. why not get new gear as a bonus? lol

Charge me a sub then. Do it.

ckeeton.4907:

they never said they would never add it either so that argument can go both ways. wow theres vertical progression omg worlds going to end because someone has better gear then i do. i really dont care about having the best gear if im HAVING FUN.

Read my first post, I addressed this already. You can make any number of ad hoc explanations and excuses, but where were you when everyone was assuming the gist of the manifesto?

gwawer.9805:

To the people who are saying “I didn’t buy this game to grind dungeons I just wanted to stroll about in the world and do my thing and enjoy dynamic events la la la”…

Are you actually doing that?

I don’t grind. So, apparently, yes, I must be doing that.

Are you actually going back to zones and re-experiencing the events and the world?

Current character roster: Elementalist (80), Engineer (75), Thief (48), Mesmer (20), Ranger (19). Hundreds of hours clocked. What do you think?

Maybe this is why Anet is being flexible now with their original philosophy, because they see that despite their own ideals of having players go out into the world and just “having fun” people simply don’t do that anymore.

The widely held misconception here is that ANet has embarked into completely new territory with this design philosophy.

That’s not the case. A few interesting new things have been done but, for the most part, other games have been here before and have garnered success. ANet’s “pioneering” is largely hype.

For more, please see: Ultima Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Anarchy Online, EVE, City of Heroes, among others.

Bogey.5423:

ckeeton.4907:

they never said they would never add it either so that argument can go both ways. wow theres vertical progression omg worlds going to end because someone has better gear then i do. i really dont care about having the best gear if im HAVING FUN.

Read my first post, I addressed this already. You can make any number of ad hoc explanations and excuses, but where were you when everyone was assuming the gist of the manifesto?

uh i was open minded to know that it could change thats all. i dont recall a manifesto also meaning a binding contract.

This patch is basically going back on what they said for 5 years which is pretty much….

Bait and switch.

I don’t think a Manifesto is wrong in a sense. It’s just that I’ve been always under the impression that things change over time, regardless of previous guidelines and philosophies. Sometimes, certain aspects evolve to suit certain audiences; and those audiences, for the worse case, might be those whose interest clash with another group of audience members.

For the most part, I agree with a lot of things you have mentioned, Eveningstar. Eventually, gear progression is going to kick in; but the way Anet implements it is moderately genius in that it’s probably going to be a few pieces at a time instead of an entire set of armor that continuously gets replaced. That means any Ascended gear you obtain now will have a very long equipment life (unless you change your main-spec).

Personally, I think it’s a bit too early to tell if progression is going to be “too grindy”. Eventually, there will have be non-dungeon methods to obtaining Ascended gear. Meaning: acquisition through WvW, Karma, or Crafting. That way, the “equal footing” philosophy could still make sense for as many players as possible.

On the other hand, there are players who play the game to feel “better than others” as far as their statistical numbers go. I think this kind of group of people would be difficult to satisfy without alienating the rest of the player base. Tier gear could work for them, but they are often earned in the most hardcore of places like Raids and High-End PvP. At the moment, I suppose Ascended gear could fill in this niche, but over time, I’d imagine Ascended gear would be much easier to acquire when more options open up in acquiring it. Therefore, these kinds of players will no longer feel “better than others”.

As Ascended gear goes, I’d like to see what is ArenaNet’s plan on it. I have a few predictions, but I’ll share that in another thread.

ckeeton.4907:

Esturk.2183:

ckeeton.4907:

Esturk.2183:

ckeeton.4907:

Bogey.5423:

ckeeton.4907:

no they didnt lie they introduced a new mechanic to satisfy more people. majority of people like it. sorry you dont.

It does not matter if majority or even if all would like it, basic premise is that they did go back on their statements. Got sales promising something else what the product then turned out to be. That is the core of this thread, not if you like this change.

hey it isnt arenanet’s fault you people speculate the game is turning into a gear grind. if you actually tried the new dungeons, they incorporate fun gameplay with great design. the game is about having fun. might wanna try that

Why do you need new gear to have fun?

i never said i needed gear to have fun. i said that doing the dungeons itself is fun. getting gear is just an added bonus. it isnt a big deal. it really isnt. if you arent having fun doing the dungeons themselves and are worried about gear then thats your problem. for people who are getting mad about a new tier of gear when they said gear doesnt matter to them, they sure get mad easily

Then we might as well just not have a new tier of gear. Since it’s just an added bonus. Everyone is happy.

that makes no sense at all. why not get new gear as a bonus? lol

So you wouldn’t run the dungeon without the added bonus?

ckeeton.4907:

they never said they would never add it either so that argument can go both ways. wow theres vertical progression omg worlds going to end because someone has better gear then i do. i really dont care about having the best gear if im HAVING FUN.

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”

-Mike Obrien, President of Arenanet

Is Ascended gear more powerful than exotics ?
Yes.
Is Ascended gear rarer than exotic gear ?
Yes.
Is Ascended gear rare enough that some players can’t " realistically acquire it," ?
Everything I’ve seen says yes.

So it is exactly the kind of gear the manifesto promised wouldn’t be included.

ckeeton.4907:

uh i was open minded to know that it could change thats all. i dont recall a manifesto also meaning a binding contract.

Gist = the main point or part : essence <the gist of an argument>

Like I said in my first post and even my previous post, gist (main point) of that manifesto was that there would be no vertical progression. I am happy that you are so intelligent or should I say clairvoyant that you knew that it didn’t mean that, but overwhelming majority of reviewers and customers did not share your vision. Then when it was seen that nobody understood the gist of said manifesto, would have been bare minimum to reveal that in fact they have misunderstood that.

Snoring Sleepwalker.9073:

Eveningstar.6940:

I can back up my points if you’d like. I thought I did, but I can clarify. Is there a part of my post that you feel requires more evidence?

Do so. I don’t see any evidence from you, just speculation. By evidence I’m talking about links to elsewhere so I don’t have to take you at your word.

Another question: If the manifesto was wrong, why hasn’t ANET come out and said that it was wrong ?
If they do, I expect that most of the people complaining about the gear grind will just leave and the controversy will die overnight.

A lot of the points I’m making are by nature philosophical, rather than empirical, and so providing hard evidence isn’t really going to be a possibility. In this case, the evidence is visible in the argument itself.

Much of what I’m saying isn’t speculation, but observation. For example, a manifesto is not a contract. It just isn’t, by definition. But does this mean you shouldn’t feel upset or betrayed when someone goes against the basic philosophical principles which they sold to you? No. You have absolutely every right to be upset. I’d be, and was, and still kind of am, upset. But that’s not the point.

The point is this: It’s possible that the manifesto was just unrealistic to begin with. The manifesto describes a game that barely resembles an MMORPG. But the game itself is very recognizably an MMORPG. Quest hubs, theme-park style zones, a high level cap, gear upgrades while leveling, unlocking new abilities—it even as a rudimentary talent tree (the Trait system). GW2 is an MMO. It’s going to have some form of gear progression because it was designed like an MMO.

If ANet’s Manifesto was right, then GW2 would be a very, very different game, fundamentally. It’d be a LOT more like GW1. It’s not.

As for my second point, about MMORPGs being defined by gear progression, the evidence is in the history: EQ, EQ2, WoW, CoH, DCUO, CO, LOTRO, ToR, STO, AoC. The list goes on and on and on. Just about every MMORPG released in recent memory includes a system of character progression through gear—even City of Heroes had an abstract gear system via Enhancements.

GW1 did it differently, yes. It broke out of the gear progression mold. But it was so fundamentally different from every MMO in the genre, that even ANet called it a CORPG.

As for my third point, the evidence is in a link I provided, wherein a developer uses the quote “all progression is important,” in response to a question about whether Vertical progression is a priority.

As it was used in marketing this game to me, and the primary reason I purchased this game and many gems I’d only forgive them if they had said something like, “Hey customers, our plans are changing. We are changing direction. Those who purchased the promised product may apply for a full refund with our apologies for not being able to deliver on our promises.” at the time the decision was made to start work on this change.

That is only if that decision was made after they sold me this game. If they had already made that decision prior to selling it to me and lied in their ads they are crooks.

As they made no real effort to notify their customers of this change in a timely way I will always think of this firm and all it’s employees as deceivers and liars. I will never spend another cent of my mony on any of their products or services ever. (Please don’t attempt to tell me a leaked bit of info mere days before the patch preceeded the development of this patch.)

The cats out of the bag for me. They can’t recover my trust ever again. They can be stand up and revert to the service I paid for or offer a refund of my nearly $700 I spent based on their lies. Their refund page says they won’t refund the gems that have been used.

I’m curious if their bean counters track customer sentiment just by account or by cash spent and weigh their marketing and game direction that way. Oh well they lost the continuing support of this avid gamer and his wallet.

Snoring Sleepwalker.9073:

ckeeton.4907:

they never said they would never add it either so that argument can go both ways. wow theres vertical progression omg worlds going to end because someone has better gear then i do. i really dont care about having the best gear if im HAVING FUN.

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”

-Mike Obrien, President of Arenanet

Is Ascended gear more powerful than exotics ?
Yes.
Is Ascended gear rarer than exotic gear ?
Yes.
Is Ascended gear rare enough that some players can’t " realistically acquire it," ?
Everything I’ve seen says yes.

So it is exactly the kind of gear the manifesto promised wouldn’t be included.

using that arguement, you can also argue legendaries are “unrealistic to get” yet i dont see anyone being mad over that

ckeeton.4907:

Snoring Sleepwalker.9073:

ckeeton.4907:

they never said they would never add it either so that argument can go both ways. wow theres vertical progression omg worlds going to end because someone has better gear then i do. i really dont care about having the best gear if im HAVING FUN.

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”

-Mike Obrien, President of Arenanet

Is Ascended gear more powerful than exotics ?
Yes.
Is Ascended gear rarer than exotic gear ?
Yes.
Is Ascended gear rare enough that some players can’t " realistically acquire it," ?
Everything I’ve seen says yes.

So it is exactly the kind of gear the manifesto promised wouldn’t be included.

using that arguement, you can also argue legendaries are “unrealistic to get” yet i dont see anyone being mad over that

Of course not, it’s cosmetic.

The Golden rules of Guild Wars 2. Another document that Ascended gear disagrees with:

Take risks

“Let’s try it.” You hope to hear that phrase at the end of a meeting, especially if that meeting was contentious, or if the idea discussed is new and radical.

Imagine a playground full of kids playing. At its best, playing is making mistakes in a safe environment and learning from those mistakes in a way that encourages growth. Trying out new ideas or making drastic changes is the way we as designers get to play with the game. It’s where we slip and fall, scrape our knees, and otherwise monkey around on the jungle gym. While we don’t try out every idea, we use our collective experience to get a sense for what has promise—what we should follow down the rabbit hole. We look at where our ideas break, how they break, and why they break. You can see this in how we redesigned the sylvari, or in how we have developed the professions. They’ve all undergone quite a bit of transformation over the last few years as we have tried out different approaches and learned from those very playful experiences.

Purpose: To reinforce our general design culture of iteration. You can’t innovate in an environment that is averse to failure. You must embrace the risk of making mistakes. At the end of the day, if something doesn’t quite turn out the way you wanted, it’s not failing, it’s playing—and you grow for having done it.

Ascended gear looks like ANET is playing it safe and copying other MMOs. Not taking a risk by doing something new.

Respect the player

We respect you—as a player, as a human being. This game we’re making may end up competing with your real life. It might fight for your free time alongside your friends, your family, your work, and whatever else you might be doing. Because of that, we want to give you a meaningful experience, not one that is a vapid waste of your time. Whatever your reasons for spending time in Tyria, we don’t want to waste it by doing stuff that isn’t fun.

Gear treadmills force players to keep repeating content they don’t enjoy, just to get the gear they require for the content they do enjoy.

They have had a game out for 7 years based on the “no gear progression” tenet in the manifesto. They know how many bought that game and played that game. So Arenanet has real internal statistics to not only tell them if there is a market for their manifesto but also the potential revenue.

Now after a few years of seeing a certain type of customer buying into the “no gear progression” approach, they decide to make a new product. A new product, GW2, based on this same principle. That means that their stats proved there is a market for horizontal progression based MMO.

Many people who bought the game read the box or feature list. They knew about no raiding, no end game, no gear progression. The huge box sales are further proof that people liked the concept.

Before you say, how do you know? Because there was tons of internet information about it. If you are the type of buyer who does no research on a product before buying, it is your fault when you find it does not have certain features. Don’t bother complaining about things that the product lacks when the seller clearly said it would not contain those features.

It is not a matter of right or wrong. It is a matter of having reasonable financial forecasts based on 7 years of historical data. It is a matter of not overhauling your entire design philosophy after your product has been out for only 3 months. Quality CFOs and Marketing executives would be shocked at what they have just done. This is not a small change or tweak. It is a complete redesign of their product within a short timeframe. And worse, it is product that by their own admission, has exceeded their box sales projections.

Their only other source of on-going revenue right now is the cash shop. If there is concern about low purchases in that, figure out ways to get people to buy (new items, promotions, etc).

What does adding a gear treadmill have to do with cash shop purchases? What proof do they have that those people will buy anything in the store? They can not use GW1 cash shop statistics as an indicator because that game was based on horizontal progression. What is their data that supports such an assumption?

They have cannibalized their product. Within 4-6 months, they will see the financial impact of that decision. If they were right and paying customers dig the change, then it may work out. If they were wrong, it is over. Many who bought the original product feel betrayed and will not come back. Many who were singing their original product’s praises will no longer recommend it to friends/family. Brand loyalty is a valid concept in marketing. They have just tarnished their brand. It is difficult to recover once that has happened.