Guild Wars 2

tl;dr Lost Shores is probably not introducing a Gear Treadmill. The reason why is pretty obvious if you use the label Gear Treadmill correctly rather than diluting the meaning of the label by arbitrarily assigning it to anything that requires you to upgrade your gear. Apart from notable exceptions (legendary weapons) you are guaranteed to get what you want so it’s not a treadmill, period.

The question “What is a Gear Treadmill?” is an important question. The answer is even more important. Given the current stink people are raising I think it’s important to consider that for a moment.

‘Gear Treadmill’ or ‘Chasing a carrot on a stick’? These labels are not arbitrary. They mean exactly what they sound like.

Gear Treadmill
What is a treadmill? A treadmill is a thing you run on and no matter how long you run on it you will never move forward. You will remain exactly where you are. There is no finish line, or if there is a finish line you aren’t going to reach it while you’re on the treadmill.

It’s called a Gear Treadmill because chasing after gear in other games is like standing on a treadmill trying to get to the finish line of a race. You just aren’t going to get there. The system (treadmill) is designed to prevent you from getting to the finish line. You aren’t supposed to reach your goal.

Chasing a carrot on a stick
This is obviously a metaphor meant to conjure images of something like this:
http://i.imgur.com/hRPwE.jpg?1

You can’t get the carrot on the stick because the apparatus is designed to keep the carrot perpetually in view but forever out of reach. You’re supposed to see it and think “Hey, I can get that if I just move forward a little bit. That’s not hard.” However, the system (the carrot on a stick) is designed to make sure that when you move to where the carrot was, or where you think it should be, it’s not there. You can still see it though and you’re supposed to think “Oh, I just have to move forward a little bit more.” Repeat ad nauseum.

Why GW2 doesn’t have a Gear Treadmill
You are supposed to reach the finish line. You are supposed to hit the power cap. Exotics are not exactly hard to get. I can pretty easily acquire one exotic per day without much effort. One per week if I barely play.

I’ve played a number of other MMOs and I distinctly remember running instances 50+ times trying to get a particular item to drop that was Best In Slot (BIS) and not getting it. There was no guarantee I would ever get it. Statistically I should get it eventually but realistically I might not. These other games are actually designed so the odds of you ever getting every BIS item on your character was statistically improbably (borderline impossible). That’s why it’s a treadmill.

The biggest difference between GW2 and other games is that I am guaranteed to get what I want (legendary weapons could be considered an exception for various reasons). If I really planned it out, I could probably even figure out exactly how long it will take me to get any particular exotic item. I can write a list of exactly what I need to do and the words “Pray it drops” do not appear anywhere on the list (legendary exception). At the very least I will get enough money to buy what I need off the TP because 90% of things are not Bind On Acquire in GW2. The few exceptions are things which are generally guaranteed drops (e.g. Dungeon Tokens) and/or easy enough to get (e.g. Badge of Honor).

A metaphor to put in perspective
GW2 is a series of short races. You know where the finish line is and how far you have to run. As long as you don’t quit before the stationary finish line you cross it. No tricks. The amount of effort it takes for each short race is exactly what you thought it would be from the start (legendary exception). Your get your shiny trophy for your trophy room at the end. If you keep running these races you keep getting trophies and eventually you have a pretty full trophy room.

Other games are a series of races but no one tells you where the finish line is. You have no idea how far you have to run. You may not even know which direction you’re supposed to be running in. There is no ‘starting line’ rather a starting circle. You can run in any direction but you have no idea which direction the finish line is in. It might be right around the corner. It might be on the other side of the world. No one knows.

The Biggest Difference
The guarantee. If you are guaranteed to get what you’re chasing it’s not a gear treadmill, period.

The reason ppl complain against gear treadmill is because the difficulty of getting said gear (think low drop rate raids) and repetitive content. As long as the journey toward gear progression is fun and engaging, I welcome gear progression. After all, the whole point of playing a game (or even living real life) is to achieve goals, long as said goals are engaging to reach.

Our minds are hard-wired this way, we seek fun to attain goals. Fun gear progression =/= gear treadmill. I hope Anet implements this well.

People don’t like gear treadmills because all of our gear will no longer be optimal. I was planning to make two more armour sets for my main, which I already have two different armour/weapon sets. Now I that plan is scraped because I already see Ascended gear that down right outclasses my current gear that I have (salvage an exotic magic find ring I guess?).

Also, we were promised that this would not happen.

If you look at it from the long run, there will always be a gear treadmill. One day, the level cap will increase (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLHfq2lJY5A&t=58m35s) and everything will start all over again.

Ascended gear itself is not a treadmill, unless you look at it from the perspective of having to upgrade your exotics every few months as they add more ascended items. If they only release ~3 pieces for every new dungeon, then that would mean by the time you’re fully geared, it’s almost time for an expansion. If they choose to raise the level cap with every expansion, that would mean a continuous cycle.

Actually, the biggest issue is power creep. Secondary issues are gating/obsoleting of content.

Wow, that was a very well-written and informative post Unspecified, thank you!

I don’t really have an opinion one way or the other about the ascended gear (I’m not really driven by end-game stats and gear, so a new tier doesn’t really affect me), but I do know I was often confused by terms like ‘treadmill’, ‘carrot on a stick’ and ‘skinner box’. This was really clear and helpful!

+1 to you sir or madam.

Gear Tread-mill or not it doesn’t change the fact that right now “Endgame” is boring as all hell… I see people complaining about their gear being obsolete, but thats far from the problem. The current dungeon content is far to easy with gimmicky boss who all have high HP instead of real and fun mechanics. And instead of addressing the problem with current dungeons they are just adding one dungeon to rule them all, and make the previous ones obsolete.

So gear progression or not isnt the idea of an MMO longevity? Ive been playing MMOs for almost 10 years, and this is the first time ive actually “beat the game” in less then 2 months… and the argument that this is supposed to be a PVP game to get keep you playing is false. The PVP is fundamentally broken and full of bugs, and the one dimensional zerg encouraging game type is a far cry from an e-sport.

So I think people should stop complaining about this “gear treadmill” and how its gonna break the game, and focus more on will this new content really keep you hooked until the next patch? I personally think Anet needs to go back to the drawing board and fix alot more of the core of the game.

Anyway rant aside, a “gear treadmill” in an MMO is inevitable as its what these games are built around. I didnt expect Anet to start implementing it so soon, and hopefully in the future they can find other ways to keep players hooked. And yes it may only be 2 rings and a backpack, but it shows the direction they are heading.

The problem is that many players right now have already finished the race and ate the carrot. The only thing left is a legendary, which in its current form is an equivalent of “Oh, you’ve done all the epic stuff like WvW, dungeons, exploration etc? Cool, now the final step – farm the same event chain over and over again and after a month you might have enough gold to finish it”.

I don’t think that a treadmill or power creep is necessary, but there should definitely be some form of long-lasting incentive (that won’t make you feel like shooting your brainz out).

SlimJim.3087:

Anyway rant aside, a “gear treadmill” in an MMO is inevitable as its what these games are built around.

Inevitable you say? I’m pretty sure there’s an extremely relevant counterexample that disproves that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild_Wars

The gear treadmill doesn’t apply to any single tier of gear, the concept is that you obtain the best possible gear and the designers add better gear that you once again go after in an unending cycle. The difficulty of obtaining the gear is irrelevant. So as long as they continue to add better items to the game like the Ascended items, the game will have a gear treadmill.

Leablo.2651:

SlimJim.3087:

Anyway rant aside, a “gear treadmill” in an MMO is inevitable as its what these games are built around.

Inevitable you say? I’m pretty sure there’s an extremely relevant counterexample that disproves that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild_Wars

LOL man did you even play GW1? there was a very clear defined treadmill in that game, there was ways of obtaining much better gear and HEROES in my opinion actually broke the game… it may not have been as cookie cutter as “GRIND THIS RAID” until the piece you want drops from a certain boss, but for example my buddie had over 1 million gold, much better gear then me, and was way more powerful. This happened cause he had the treadmill on max speed and chose to sprint along on it, while i chose to get off lol

In GW1 they were just alot more inventive, I.E. when FoW and UW first popped up and they were insanely difficult and none one could even beat them for a while… and the gear they provided was only minimal upgrades but it felt like you accomplished something mainly because of the sheer difficulty.

How is introducing a new tier of items not already a treadmill?
It is the first step in that exact process. Something previously unavailable is now dangling in front of your nose. You want it? Well guess what: go grind for it!

But, but they ll stop after this!
Will they really? They ve said themselves they listened to “player feedback” (not mine for sure) but they obviously did listen to people who “have done it all”.
Guess what happens when those exact people “do it all” again?
Will they then just say no to them then?

Why cant they say no to those people now?
Why cant they stay true to the manifesto and many blog posts?

@Sonic Its not the “TREADMILL” that is the problem or even the new tier of gear, its the way they are putting it in the game, and how soon they are stating to do it. It’s as if its them realizing there isnt much to do at endgame so they are adding some cheap substance to keep people hooked.

They need to go back to the drawing bored and find ways to introduce this “TREADMILL” into the game in more subtle fashions as they did in GW1… A good start would be re-imagining FoW and UW in my opinion, content that is hard but fun, and offers minimal but satisfying reward.

EDIT: Also they need to do a mass rework of thier loot tables, as fighting huge HP walls and doing some of the more epic quest chains just to get nothing but KITTEN blues is no way in god living hell rewarding or satisfying…

SlimJim.3087:

Leablo.2651:

SlimJim.3087:

Anyway rant aside, a “gear treadmill” in an MMO is inevitable as its what these games are built around.

Inevitable you say? I’m pretty sure there’s an extremely relevant counterexample that disproves that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild_Wars

LOL man did you even play GW1? there was a very clear defined treadmill in that game, there was ways of obtaining much better gear and HEROES in my opinion actually broke the game… it may not have been as cookie cutter as “GRIND THIS RAID” until the piece you want drops from a certain boss, but for example my buddie had over 1 million gold, much better gear then me, and was way more powerful. This happened cause he had the treadmill on max speed and chose to sprint along on it, while i chose to get off lol

In GW1 they were just alot more inventive, I.E. when FoW and UW first popped up and they were insanely difficult and none one could even beat them for a while… and the gear they provided was only minimal upgrades but it felt like you accomplished something mainly because of the sheer difficulty.

Your definition of what a treadmill is seems a bit off, and what you describe does not resemble a treadmill in any way. In GW1, you could theoretically acquire a set of max-stat armor and weapons within prophecies. This very set of armor would then still be max-stat 6 years from that time, after eotn. This is what no treadmill means. The rarity, and thus, time needed to acquire said gear in prophecies is of no relevance to the treadmill discussion.

Also, FoW and UW did not have any gear upgrades at all.

@winter what I mean when I say “TREADMILL” doesnt solely reflect gear… im using it in a very general and broad way to describe progression within the game. Heroes for example were a thing that with time spent could progress to making you rather powerful.

As for FoW and UW yes they didnt have stat upgrades but they had unique items and rewards which combined with their difficulty made them feel rewarding when they first launched.

Leablo.2651:

SlimJim.3087:

Anyway rant aside, a “gear treadmill” in an MMO is inevitable as its what these games are built around.

Inevitable you say? I’m pretty sure there’s an extremely relevant counterexample that disproves that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild_Wars

If GW1 was actually an MMO, you might have a point, but it’s not in any sense of the word. Unless you consider any game you play online, a MMO:)

Josher.9612:

Leablo.2651:

SlimJim.3087:

Anyway rant aside, a “gear treadmill” in an MMO is inevitable as its what these games are built around.

Inevitable you say? I’m pretty sure there’s an extremely relevant counterexample that disproves that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild_Wars

If GW1 was actually an MMO, you might have a point, but it’s not in any sense of the word. Unless you consider any game you play online, a MMO:)

This is actually true. GW1 was known as a CORPG (Cooperative Online Role-Playing Game) and was marketed as such. GW2 is marketed as a traditional MMO. I don’t know where I’m going with this aside from backing your statement up.

Your premise is that because a reward is guaranteed that it cannot be a treadmill.

This is simply incorrect. The treadmill occurs because your goal is not to acquire a specific item, but to achieve the “best in slot” item. When you achieve this goal, the item is downgraded and becomes no longer “best in slot.” Then, you must continue running. Again and again. THAT is a treadmill. You can never finish because the goal is always redefined.

Consider this. Any game that you can trade for a best in slot item, you can purchase with profits even if you don’t get the drop straight up. Yeah, it might take you a year of bad luck to be able to afford that item. But you are guaranteed to be able to buy it eventually. So, by your definition, none of those games would have a treadmill either.

Magiofdeath.2745:

Josher.9612:

Leablo.2651:

SlimJim.3087:

Anyway rant aside, a “gear treadmill” in an MMO is inevitable as its what these games are built around.

Inevitable you say? I’m pretty sure there’s an extremely relevant counterexample that disproves that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild_Wars

If GW1 was actually an MMO, you might have a point, but it’s not in any sense of the word. Unless you consider any game you play online, a MMO:)

This is actually true. GW1 was known as a CORPG (Cooperative Online Role-Playing Game) and was marketed as such. GW2 is marketed as a traditional MMO. I don’t know where I’m going with this aside from backing your statement up.

The distinction is moot. Are you suggesting that have open instances somehow introduce a requirement of a gear treadmill? If not, what exactly the difference between a “CORPG” and an “MMORPG” that creates this mandate?

The way im looking at it I guess is treadmill = progression of any kind, not just BIS gear…

A Gear Treadmill is when you are at 100% of the maximum character power, then the game moves you back to less than 100% of the maximum character power, and you have to go grind more and collect more gear to reach 100% power again.

It’s called a “Treadmill” because you have to keep ‘running’ (grinding) just to stay in the same place that you started.

Crater.1625:

A Gear Treadmill is when you are at 100% of the maximum character power, then the game moves you back to less than 100% of the maximum character power, and you have to go grind more and collect more gear to reach 100% power again.

It’s called a “Treadmill” because you have to keep ‘running’ (grinding) just to stay in the same place that you started.

This sums it up.

Crater.1625:

A Gear Treadmill is when you are at 100% of the maximum character power, then the game moves you back to less than 100% of the maximum character power, and you have to go grind more and collect more gear to reach 100% power again.

It’s called a “Treadmill” because you have to keep ‘running’ (grinding) just to stay in the same place that you started.

Hmm, but by that definition, wouldn’t any new content added to the game represent the addition of a “treadmill” of some kind?

For example, whenever a new area is released everyone would be moved back from 100% maximum world exploration, so they would have to jump back on the “exploration treadmill” to return to their previous 100% position.

Another example would be whenever a new story arc is introduced, everyone would be moved back from 100% story completion, so they have to jump back on the “story treadmill” to return to their previous 100% position.

Or consider whenever new skills or advanced traits are introduced, everyone would again be moved back from having 100% skill acquisition, so they have to jump back on the “skill treadmill” to collect those skills/traits necessary to return to their previous 100% position.

I don’t think of any of those examples of fresh content is well described by a ‘treadmill’ metaphor. Surely the OP’s definition makes more sense, doesn’t it?

Perhaps what you have described might fit a different metaphor better – how about “shifting of the goal posts”?

Roven Leafsong.8917:

Crater.1625:

A Gear Treadmill is when you are at 100% of the maximum character power, then the game moves you back to less than 100% of the maximum character power, and you have to go grind more and collect more gear to reach 100% power again.

It’s called a “Treadmill” because you have to keep ‘running’ (grinding) just to stay in the same place that you started.

Hmm, but by that definition, wouldn’t any new content added to the game represent the addition of a “treadmill” of some kind?

For example, whenever a new area is released everyone would be moved back from 100% maximum world exploration, so they would have to jump back on the “exploration treadmill” to return to their previous 100% position.

Another example would be whenever a new story arc is introduced, everyone would be moved back from 100% story completion, so they have to jump back on the “story treadmill” to return to their previous 100% position.

Or consider whenever new skills or advanced traits are introduced, everyone would again be moved back from having 100% skill acquisition, so they have to jump back on the “skill treadmill” to collect those skills/traits necessary to return to their previous 100% position.

I don’t think of any of those examples of fresh content is well described by a ‘treadmill’ metaphor. Surely the OP’s definition makes more sense, doesn’t it?

Perhaps what you have described might fit a different metaphor better – how about “shifting goal posts”?

It think you r confusing things a bit:
We are talking about a gear treadmill here.
New places to explore offer variety. If no must-have-loot (cosmetics) drops there its perfectly fine as it offers an alternative. If statistically higher loot only drops there it is a part of the treadmill.
New story arcs arent a treadmill because you are experiencing actual new things, not increasing a few numbers. It is real progression.
New skills offer variety – unless they are statistically better.
Even gear with different stat distribution is variety.

The difference between those things is that being at less than 100% map or story completion doesn’t have any inherent effect on how well your character performs at any other task in the game.

This is a ridiculous hypothetical, but it’s the only way I can think of where ‘map completion’ would become a treadmill:
Imagine you’ve just put in the dozens/hundreds of hours, and bought up a thousand gold worth of materials, and farmed up a million Karma, and you’ve just made yourself a fancy new Twilight.
Now, making a Twilight (or any other Legendary) requires a number of Gifts, including a Gift of Exploration, which you receive for 100% map completion.

Now, imagine ArenaNet releases a new map, or a new expansion, and the next time you log on, your Twilight has been downgraded back into a Dusk, and there’s a little note in the item description that says “Your Gift of Exploration has expired. Please explore every new map to restore Legendary functionality.”

Doesn’t that sound a little off to you?

SonicTHI.3217:

How is introducing a new tier of items not already a treadmill?
It is the first step in that exact process. Something previously unavailable is now dangling in front of your nose. You want it? Well guess what: go grind for it!

But, but they ll stop after this!
Will they really? They ve said themselves they listened to “player feedback” (not mine for sure) but they obviously did listen to people who “have done it all”.
Guess what happens when those exact people “do it all” again?
Will they then just say no to them then?

Why cant they say no to those people now?
Why cant they stay true to the manifesto and many blog posts?

First off, stop using the manifesto as a crutch.

Second there was no breach of the manifesto (as if it was some kind of ironclad law, which it’s not) because this isn’t a gear treadmill at all.

In other MMOs it’s called a treadmill because no matter how often you collect all the best in slot gear there will always be a new patch that renders it useless, requiring you to regrind it again and again until the end of time.

Ascended gear is different. It’s one…count it, ONE tier of armor. Rather than release multiple tiers they’re drip feeding the gear into the game over time. Two slots now, two another patch, two after that. Eventually many patches down the line you’ll be able to wear a full set. It’s the ILLUSION of a gear treadmill, the slow collection of a single set across many patches instead of multiple progressively stronger sets, with a new one each content update.

And the illusion of a treadmill is not a treadmill, just something to invoke that sensation for those who desire it. Your precious manifesto is safely unbreached, no matter how hard you try to believe it has been.

And that’s the final word.

It is a gear treadmill because many people spent the past 3 months gearing up to full Exotic believing that would be max stats(no more grinding after this). Now they introduce something with better stats, and our Exotic gear is now not final gear anymore, it is only just below and will get trashed/replaced by Ascended gear. Which means now we have to grind Again for the Ascended gear to be at max stats. Then in 3 more months they will introduce another tier named Heroic gear, which means we have to replace all the Ascended gear, and grind it All Over Again. Then in 3 more months they will introduce another tier named Deity gear… you get the reason why this is called “gear treadmill” now?

You want max gear? you’ll have to do the work for it over and over again. If you miss the treadmill, you become out of shape and cant compete anymore with others until you get back on the treadmill. This way, it will FORCE players to keep playing to acquire the next tier. In GW2’s case however, it makes players give up on GW2 because they were promised something else.

My first 15-22 sword in GW1 is still max stats after 7 years. My first Exotic sword in GW2 is not max stats anymore after 3 months. My first Ascended sword will not be max stats anymore after 3 more months, and so on.

Before people claim how “easy” it is to get Exotic gear in GW2, think about the GW1 counter part.
Max 15-22 Sundering 15^50 sword of Fortitude = easily gotten by different methods.
Sundering mod = 3k
15^50 inscription = 500g
Pommel of Fortitude = 5k
10K max for a max sword. Alternatively, grab a green sword for barely 4-7k on market that comes straight away with max stats. It takes less than 1hour to get 10k in GW1

Exotic right now is actually harder to get than a max item from GW1. It should actually be “AS EASY TO GET”. Max stats should be something easy to achieve and the rest of how good you are completely based on your good skill/strategy, not gear. Having better gear and an advantage in a fight because you play more was NOWHERE to be found in GW1. Playing more did make you better only because you discovered new builds/strategies/combos by sheer skill and practice(interrupts/kds).

Turtle Dragon.9241:

It is a gear treadmill because many people spent the past 3 months gearing up to full Exotic believing that would be max stats…

The three slots you can fill with the first two Ascended item types won’t invalidate the remaining eleven pieces of exotic armor you already have.

What in the world are you even talking about? It’s called a treadmill because you’re running to stay in one spot, which is how the treadmill works in games like WoW; gear does not actually improve your character’s abilities, you can’t do anything new mechanically with your Paladin in WoW when you transition to epics, but you need the epics because otherwise the high-end content is mathematically impossible. You have to grind out gear to even be able to play the dungeon/raid, which is also referred to as gear-gating.

Which is why people are pissed off, we were promised that this would be a game with no gear gates, you would never need to grind out new gear to simply enter new content. Which you absolutely will for this fractal dungeon, because it is introducing a resistance gear grind, you absolutely need a certain amount of FR – excuse me, infusion – for it to even be possible to clear.

Far from us not understanding what a gear treadmill is, you not only have no clue what one is and how it works, but you took it upon yourself to tell everyone else the wrong thing.

Vasham.2408:

The three slots you can fill with the first two Ascended item types won’t invalidate the remaining eleven pieces of exotic armor you already have.

Or to rephrase this slightly: The three slots that you can fill with the first two Ascended item types will invalidate the three pieces of Exotic armour you already have.

Healix.5819:

If you look at it from the long run, there will always be a gear treadmill. One day, the level cap will increase (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLHfq2lJY5A&t=58m35s) and everything will start all over again.
.

You can add levels without adding more gear. You can add character progression without adding levels or gear. Look at GW1

Unspecified.9142:

*tl;dr Lost Shores is probably not introducing a Gear Treadmill.

(….)

The guarantee. If you are guaranteed to get what you’re chasing it’s not a gear treadmill, period.

*In response:

tl;dr. ANet has not clarified that Ascended Gear is the final tier before Legendary tier, people are not guaranteed to get equipment plateau – This is essentially Gear Treadmill.*

This has nothing to do with Gear Grind – Grinding for Legendaries is crazy but acceptable for long-term players. But treadmilling = lowballing all sorts of MMO players.

I miss gear treadmills I alwasy liked chasing more powerful items by doing new content its what I do in mmo’s, and I have a blast doing it.

Right now im sitting in lions arch with my favorite skins and exotics at about 150 hrs played and never log on anymore.

Crater.1625:

Vasham.2408:

The three slots you can fill with the first two Ascended item types won’t invalidate the remaining eleven pieces of exotic armor you already have.

Or to rephrase this slightly: The three slots that you can fill with the first two Ascended item types will invalidate the three pieces of Exotic armour you already have.

Three pieces of equipment replaced =/= fourteen pieces. You fail logic and math forever I’m afraid.

toomuchtatose.6874:

tl;dr. ANet has not clarified that Ascended Gear is the final tier before Legendary tier, people are not guaranteed to get equipment plateau – This is essentially Gear Treadmill.

Except that they did clarify that they won’t, and it’s still not a gear treadmill. Lieing won’t change anything.

Vasham.2408:

Crater.1625:

Vasham.2408:

The three slots you can fill with the first two Ascended item types won’t invalidate the remaining eleven pieces of exotic armor you already have.

Or to rephrase this slightly: The three slots that you can fill with the first two Ascended item types will invalidate the three pieces of Exotic armour you already have.

Three pieces of equipment replaced =/= fourteen pieces. You fail logic and math forever I’m afraid.

Read my post again. I didn’t say anything about fourteen pieces.

Vasham.2408:

toomuchtatose.6874:

tl;dr. ANet has not clarified that Ascended Gear is the final tier before Legendary tier, people are not guaranteed to get equipment plateau – This is essentially Gear Treadmill.

Except that they did clarify that they won’t, and it’s still not a gear treadmill. Lieing won’t change anything.

I’m not lying. There are nothing from ANet that says this is the last tier before Legendary. You owe me the burden of proof.

If you want to quote: “We will not be adding a new tier of gear every 3 months that we expect everyone to chase after and then get the next set and so on.” Don’t bother

“Gear Treadmill” to me means that you never stop getting gear, ever. Mainly this applies to needing upgrades to do further content.

So far I need Ascended gear and I need to slot it to go the farthest in the new dungeon. This in-it’s-self is not the “treadmill” yet. It’ll become a “treadmill” depending on how fast they opt to release new tiers and/or if they opt to add more dungeons with unique debuffs to be buffed against. If they opt to add more dungeons with the same debuff and more Ascended gear, it’ll still be the same pace as before. IE Not a “treadmill”.

So until they start cranking out updates that keep making things obsolete, there is no “treadmill”.

wookie slayer.4259:

I miss gear treadmills I alwasy liked chasing more powerful items by doing new content its what I do in mmo’s, and I have a blast doing it.

Right now im sitting in lions arch with my favorite skins and exotics at about 150 hrs played and never log on anymore.

The issue is that GW2 wasn’t designed for you! Why did you buy the game when you knew and were told, directly by AV, that they wouldn’t be using that type of game play. kitten /p>

Pennry.9215:

“Gear Treadmill” to me means that you never stop getting gear, ever. Mainly this applies to needing upgrades to do further content.

So far I need Ascended gear and I need to slot it to go the farthest in the new dungeon. This in-it’s-self is not the “treadmill” yet. It’ll become a “treadmill” depending on how fast they opt to release new tiers and/or if they opt to add more dungeons with unique debuffs to be buffed against. If they opt to add more dungeons with the same debuff and more Ascended gear, it’ll still be the same pace as before. IE Not a “treadmill”.

So until they start cranking out updates that keep making things obsolete, there is no “treadmill”.

Why use exotic when ascended is better for generalists unless you are running exotic only builds? Unless they cap the stats for newer equipments, older equipments are always obsolete.

Updates should be slower I agree, this makes it less of a treadmill (but still a treadmill if stats upgrades/gating are involved).

Imagine because of RL issues you had to leave and return back to GW2 2 months later – found yourself immediately being kicked out of most level 80 groups just because you lack certain equipment, you grind for it so that you are able to join the groups, or find that most level 70-80 zones are lifeless except some of the newer zones you never see before… that kind of feeling, you have to do “/map LFG for (ascended) SM” or something like that.

toomuchtatose.6874:

Vasham.2408:

toomuchtatose.6874:

tl;dr. ANet has not clarified that Ascended Gear is the final tier before Legendary tier, people are not guaranteed to get equipment plateau – This is essentially Gear Treadmill.

Except that they did clarify that they won’t, and it’s still not a gear treadmill. Lieing won’t change anything.

I’m not lying. There are nothing from ANet that says this is the last tier before Legendary. You owe me the burden of proof.

---

If you want to quote: “We will not be adding a new tier of gear every 3 months that we expect everyone to chase after and then get the next set and so on.” Don’t bother

“Don’t quote the very thing that invalidates my entire argument! It’s not fair!”

See, this is you right now. It’s not making you look right. It’s making you look unable to accept that you’re wrong.

Among the five stages of acceptance you are either in denial or bargain. Not sure which but amusing none the less.

There’s no reason to believe that Ascended gear will be the final tier. I mean a week ago everyone thought Exotics would always be the top end gear and look how that turned out. Anet set a precedent and there’s absolutely nothing stopping them from adding further tiers of gear if they feel like it. I’m not upset about it, but there’s no point in sugar coating that it is a treadmill.

Vasham.2408:

“Don’t quote the very thing that invalidates my entire argument! It’s not fair!”

See, this is you right now. It’s not making you look right. It’s making you look unable to accept that you’re wrong.

Among the five stages of acceptance you are either in denial or bargain. Not sure which but amusing none the less.

It doesn’t invalidate his argument. The passage is very carefully worded PR speech. What’s more interesting is what they’re not saying. They may not do it every 3 months, but without the explicit statement that they’ll NEVER introduce more gear tiers, there’s nothing contradictory about them releasing a new gear tier every 4 months.
PR and marketing folk are snakes, and every word uttered by an ArenaNet employee goes through them before it’s finally released to the public. It’s like the army reading soldiers’ letters home in order to censor any sensitive material.

Vasham.2408:

toomuchtatose.6874:

Vasham.2408:

toomuchtatose.6874:

tl;dr. ANet has not clarified that Ascended Gear is the final tier before Legendary tier, people are not guaranteed to get equipment plateau – This is essentially Gear Treadmill.

Except that they did clarify that they won’t, and it’s still not a gear treadmill. Lieing won’t change anything.

I’m not lying. There are nothing from ANet that says this is the last tier before Legendary. You owe me the burden of proof.

---

If you want to quote: “We will not be adding a new tier of gear every 3 months that we expect everyone to chase after and then get the next set and so on.” Don’t bother

“Don’t quote the very thing that invalidates my entire argument! It’s not fair!”

See, this is you right now. It’s not making you look right. It’s making you look unable to accept that you’re wrong.

Among the five stages of acceptance you are either in denial or bargain. Not sure which but amusing none the less.

They say, that there will be no new tier of gear every 3 month. They do not say, that there will be no new tier of gear every 6 month. So we will probably have a slow treadmill. But hey, slow treadmill is still a treadmill, you know.

The thing is, this new 2-3 better items are not really an issue by itself. But this is a first step on the treadmill road, while we all were promised that this road will be completely not existent in GW2. Like someone said already, if you are pregnant you are pregnant. Even if its just the 1. week of the pregnancy.

Eurosdown.6072:

There’s no reason to believe that Ascended gear will be the final tier. I mean a week ago everyone thought Exotics would always be the top end gear and look how that turned out. Anet set a precedent and there’s absolutely nothing stopping them from adding further tiers of gear if they feel like it. I’m not upset about it, but there’s no point in sugar coating that it is a treadmill.

Well they did say that Legendary would be the top tier, and that they would be adding more Legendary items.

toomuchtatose.6874, Why use Exotics? Why use them now? You don’t need to. With the current information, you only need Ascended gear and it’s slots filled for later/harder versions of the instance. Now, of course, you’ll want the Ascended gear for the stat increase, just like people currently wanted the Exotics.

Pennry.9215:

Eurosdown.6072:

There’s no reason to believe that Ascended gear will be the final tier. I mean a week ago everyone thought Exotics would always be the top end gear and look how that turned out. Anet set a precedent and there’s absolutely nothing stopping them from adding further tiers of gear if they feel like it. I’m not upset about it, but there’s no point in sugar coating that it is a treadmill.

Well they did say that Legendary would be the top tier, and that they would be adding more Legendary items.

toomuchtatose.6874, Why use Exotics? Why use them now? You don’t need to. With the current information, you only need Ascended gear and it’s slots filled for later/harder versions of the instance. Now, of course, you’ll want the Ascended gear for the stat increase, just like people currently wanted the Exotics.

I’m lucky that I had not even started crafting exotics… may want to re-consider speccing for Ascend instead (treating exotics as fodders :X), or even move to other activities (games or real life) if I pick up more warning signs from ANet.

gwawer.9805:

The reason ppl complain against gear treadmill is because the difficulty of getting said gear (think low drop rate raids) and repetitive content. As long as the journey toward gear progression is fun and engaging, I welcome gear progression. After all, the whole point of playing a game (or even living real life) is to achieve goals, long as said goals are engaging to reach.

Our minds are hard-wired this way, we seek fun to attain goals. Fun gear progression =/= gear treadmill. I hope Anet implements this well.

the reason i don’t like it is it promotes too much negativity in dungeon running. people become so selfishly addicted to getting their loot that if the boss who drops their loot doesn’t drop it, they’ll quit and leave you with a half-finished dungeon. or you’ll die and they’ll quit because you’re the noob. or you don’t have the right gear for the dungeon. or you’re going too slow because you’re actually having fun. or you’re killing adds and why aren’t you just running past it all to get to the boss? or you didn’t watch it enough times and comment on the youtube video of how to do the dungeon first.

i’ve yet to see a gear-centric game actually generate positive social interaction for a long long time.

SlimJim.3087:

Leablo.2651:

SlimJim.3087:

Anyway rant aside, a “gear treadmill” in an MMO is inevitable as its what these games are built around.

Inevitable you say? I’m pretty sure there’s an extremely relevant counterexample that disproves that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild_Wars

LOL man did you even play GW1? there was a very clear defined treadmill in that game, there was ways of obtaining much better gear and HEROES in my opinion actually broke the game… it may not have been as cookie cutter as “GRIND THIS RAID” until the piece you want drops from a certain boss, but for example my buddie had over 1 million gold, much better gear then me, and was way more powerful. This happened cause he had the treadmill on max speed and chose to sprint along on it, while i chose to get off lol

In GW1 they were just alot more inventive, I.E. when FoW and UW first popped up and they were insanely difficult and none one could even beat them for a while… and the gear they provided was only minimal upgrades but it felt like you accomplished something mainly because of the sheer difficulty.

The FoW / UW armor DID NOT provide ANY BETTER stat than the lvl20 ( max lvl ) 1k armor.
It was the SAME STAT. Just a skin really really hard to get. That’s all.

And that was perfect. Thoses who love farm for a rare skin could perfectly do it. Thoses who hate farm for anything didnt had to do it because it was just a skin, and you could have the better stat was more easyly than the GW2 exotic ones.

GW1 didnt have gear treadmill.

Gear treadmill is when the stat keep growing. and ALL ( really ALL ) lvl 20 armor have the SAMES stats, no matter if its vabbian / UW / FoW…

@OP

Gear Treadmill and carrot on a stick is the same concept. Don´t come with RL metaphors as it won’t work.

You can get all in this game (or almost) by buying it from the TP if you want or you can get tokens to grab the gear.

Gear Treadmill in MMO’s means you’re supposed to keep running for an higher reward (hence the treadmill) and it doesn’t have the meaning you implied. You will also eventually get what you want from games like that, either from the AH or from a drop but since the drop rates on those games are much higher than for exos and precursors here you will still get it.

Carrot on the stick is more related to the behavior expected in an mmo by devs. It means Devs will constantly be throwing new and better stuff for you to get as to create the feeling of the carrot on the stick. It doesn’t quite translate to the RL metaphor though. It simply means you get the carrot but once you get that carrot you already have a new carrot to chase.

So in that sense GW2 to me at this point doesn’t have a carrot on a stick concept because every drop is completely random (as far gear goes) so you have no carrot to chase. The carrots are the tokens which ofc aren’t gear. Gear treadmill is something all mmo’s have one way or the other as you always are chasing the better gear.

So resuming , there’s a thin line between Carrot on a Stick and Gear ttreadmill if you give it some thought.

Unspecified.9142:

[had to cut quote because post was to long]

Chasing a carrot on a stick
This is obviously a metaphor meant to conjure images of something like this:
http://i.imgur.com/hRPwE.jpg?1

You can’t get the carrot on the stick because the apparatus is designed to keep the carrot perpetually in view but forever out of reach. You’re supposed to see it and think “Hey, I can get that if I just move forward a little bit. That’s not hard.” However, the system (the carrot on a stick) is designed to make sure that when you move to where the carrot was, or where you think it should be, it’s not there. You can still see it though and you’re supposed to think “Oh, I just have to move forward a little bit more.” Repeat ad nauseum.

Why GW2 doesn’t have a Gear Treadmill
You are supposed to reach the finish line. You are supposed to hit the power cap. Exotics are not exactly hard to get. I can pretty easily acquire one exotic per day without much effort. One per week if I barely play.

I’ve played a number of other MMOs and I distinctly remember running instances 50+ times trying to get a particular item to drop that was Best In Slot (BIS) and not getting it. There was no guarantee I would ever get it. Statistically I should get it eventually but realistically I might not. These other games are actually designed so the odds of you ever getting every BIS item on your character was statistically improbably (borderline impossible). That’s why it’s a treadmill.

The biggest difference between GW2 and other games is that I am guaranteed to get what I want (legendary weapons could be considered an exception for various reasons). If I really planned it out, I could probably even figure out exactly how long it will take me to get any particular exotic item. I can write a list of exactly what I need to do and the words “Pray it drops” do not appear anywhere on the list (legendary exception). At the very least I will get enough money to buy what I need off the TP because 90% of things are not Bind On Acquire in GW2. The few exceptions are things which are generally guaranteed drops (e.g. Dungeon Tokens) and/or easy enough to get (e.g. Badge of Honor).

A metaphor to put in perspective
GW2 is a series of short races. You know where the finish line is and how far you have to run. As long as you don’t quit before the stationary finish line you cross it. No tricks. The amount of effort it takes for each short race is exactly what you thought it would be from the start (legendary exception). Your get your shiny trophy for your trophy room at the end. If you keep running these races you keep getting trophies and eventually you have a pretty full trophy room.

Other games are a series of races but no one tells you where the finish line is. You have no idea how far you have to run. You may not even know which direction you’re supposed to be running in. There is no ‘starting line’ rather a starting circle. You can run in any direction but you have no idea which direction the finish line is in. It might be right around the corner. It might be on the other side of the world. No one knows.

The Biggest Difference
The guarantee. If you are guaranteed to get what you’re chasing it’s not a gear treadmill, period.

You are plain and simply wrong. A gear treadmill is simply defined as one tier of gear being replaced by another ‘better’ one, thus ‘forcing’ the player through the repeated process of gearing up.
Any game with a level cap increase will have a treadmill, hence GW1 didn’t raise the cap. And the gear is attainable, it doesn’t matter if everyone managed to get the best gear for every slot, or how much time it took, or if there was a RNG element thrown in like you example with the 50 runs.

SlimJim.3087:

@winter what I mean when I say “TREADMILL” doesnt solely reflect gear… im using it in a very general and broad way to describe progression within the game. Heroes for example were a thing that with time spent could progress to making you rather powerful.

As for FoW and UW yes they didnt have stat upgrades but they had unique items and rewards which combined with their difficulty made them feel rewarding when they first launched.

We are talking about the gear treadmill though, it does not matter at all what by your very own definition you designate as a treadmill FOR YOU.

Fact is there was maximum stat gear: It doesn’t matter how long it took to get, or picking up on your hero example, how many heroes and/or alts you kitted out. This was/is your choice. It also does not matter if some dungeon drops cool skins and you think you must have them but the process is a treadmill for you? Still the same stats, getting them was your CHOICE – not a NEED in order to have max stat gear.