Guild Wars 2

i play svaards-stats at all and that works fine. it is near berserker but it makes hot and raid much easier. have fun

Redenaz.8631:

Paulytnz.7619:

Also since Anet has the data and can see and has seen for some time now that almost everyone ( I would assume less than 5-10% who don’t, including myself for the most part of my time here on 7 out of 11-ish chars) does run zerk and even now zerk type cond builds I would say they adapt to add challenges for that even with the trash mobs and thus we get even more larger HP pools or other tricks that take us longer to kill them even with said zerk/high cond gear.

Is it possible that your assumption is way off, and that they’re not balancing everything strictly around pure DPS gear? I think you’re mixing your “they have metrics” knowledge with your assumption (“90-95% of people run zerker”) and coming up with a pretty major conclusion based on those two together.

I mean, I guess it’s possible, but the vicious cycle you’re describing in detail hinges on some large assumptions.

Well of course my assumptions could be TOTALLY off. But you can’t tell me that fighting creatures in anything other than zerk/high cond builds for a great deal of the classes doesn’t take longer and get’s to the point of total boredom. Unless you build your char to a very good balance in the other gear (which I think I have managed to get very close for my PVT Engi) you are stuck like this and could very well get tempted to “the dark side” which I am sure many people have.

Just before HOT came along I took all of my classes through LS2 to get them ready for HOT. I can tell you for the vast majority of them – snooze fest because of the HP sponges that most of the mobs/bosses were. Seemed to me so much more than the PS and doing Pve content while doing world complete. Then along came HOT. General mobs take longer than core Tyria usually unless they are glass cannons such as raptors. It’s the same for the story, sure it’s a short story but what a pain again in toughness gear, especially the last fight.

Of course I can only ASSUME they are making it more challenging for the zerk meta. But I certainly can see and feel how it is also effecting myself in other gear. Also if I am not mistaken (might have to look for it somewhere sometime) I am pretty sure before HOT released that they did straight out say to us that players in zerk gear may have to change their playstyle or look at other gear/builds to approach HOT. I don’t recall if that was raid specific or not but I’m sure it was said and there was a buzz about it on these forums at the time.

It’s only logical that a company will try to give their customers more challenging content (especially when some of them are yelling for it) to keep the game interesting and worth playing so I would think they would look at the metrics, see what the players are doing, how they are doing it and then plan from that where to take content and how to challenge them.

I have no metrics, no data, but from what I see in game from people’s chats, the speed at how they kill creatures and all the topics on these forums you can get an idea in your mind that a vast majority of the people are using these stats.

Ryou.2398:

Obtena.7952:

Ryou.2398:

But thats kind of the point others are trying to make, if a guardian can specialize in keeping others alive then why not? Why does everyone have to self survival when other classes can do it for you for people that enjoy that playstyle?

It’s simple. Because you just don’t get it both ways in this game. There is no holy trinity. What is left? What you get in GW2. Can you have it both ways? Maybe, but that’s not really relevant. lots of things can be. What’s relevant is what is.

It is relevant to the topic so you shouldnt be saying it isnt at all.

The topic isn’t relevant to the game then … fundamental game design results in Meta play in PVE because no one is tied to a ‘role’ other than to do damage and stay alive; if you are able to stay alive, then it only makes sense to optimize your offensive aspect of your build.

To change that significantly to the point where offensive gear is not optimal would probably require Anet to basically throw away the whole mechanic of the game; it would make more sense to make a new game at that point.

Instead, Anet introduced some role play element to raids with healer and tanks, but be assured, the fundamental part of ’Damage while staying alive" is still a significant part of all PVE content in this game.

I was watching an old Extra Credits episode last night, and I thought that it’s probably very pertinent to this discussion (and many others I often see posted).

The episode is 100, titled Perfect Imbalance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w Now, it talks a lot about League of Legends and PvP, but again I think that there’s a lot that’s applicable to this PvE discussion.

Based on the info that the episode presents, it sounds like many people (OP included) feel that there’s no Cyclical Imbalance to PvE…. hence why the ‘zerker meta is always so dominant. I can’t help but think that it was part of the intention of HoT to jump start this process of cyclical imbalance… and there are many HoT posts to the effect of ‘HoT is hard to survive in ’zerker stats.’ Unfortunately those new stat possibilities are currently necessary to use solely in the HoT maps (and maybe WvW).

Is it possible then that new element(s) we’re seeing with these ley-line and bandit events (e.g. legendary bandit executioner) might be yet another possible jump start of Cyclical Imbalance being introduced…? This time, though, it’s in core Tyria where the ’zerker meta is dominant… but might part of the function of these PvE events be to eventually dethrone the ’zerker meta?

Just some food for thought and discussion I thought I’d share.

~EW

Paulytnz.7619:

Players ask in game for info all the time as well as the ideal builds to go and gear. I see it all the time and you can geuess what is pretty much answered all the time. Not only that they also see other players killing faster than them if they are in anything besides the fast killing gear and will straight out ask them how they are killing faster. People are not totally blind or stupid as you may be trying to make out they are.
.

You’re continuing to make assumptions. Casual isn’t stupid, it just means that they have different goals than you do. Hardcore players like to challenge themselves and test the limits of themselves and the game. Not every player does this, some people just log in to chat with their friends or to have fun and play the game while they have a little spare time. Researching the BiS equipment, let alone grinding until their fingers fall off to get it, doesn’t appeal to everyone. There’s nothing wrong with this, there are thousands of small details built into the game for players to discover, most of them have nothing to do with killing monsters or collecting loot.

On the forums there are a couple dozen regulars, perhaps a hundred or so who post once in a while, a few thousand who lurk and read the posts but don’t comment. We tend to forget that while this seems like a large number, it’s only a few % of the total number of people playing the game. The average player has never even visited the forums, many of them don’t even know it exists.

Back when he posted in the BLTC forum, John Smith occasionally offered a glimpse at the size of the active player base by posting how many items passed through the trading post during a short period of time. While you think in terms of dozens or hundreds of items, the reality is that 100x to 1000x the number of transactions happens compared to what we imagine. A while back someone spoke about manipulating the precursor market and he mentioned that approximately one Dusk was sold every hour on average. Think about how many hours this game has been around, even if the rate fluctuates over time, thousands upon thousands of Dusks have been spawned, transformed, bought and sold, packed away in the bank against future use, etc.

And still, Legendaries are a concern to only a small part of the player base, and buying/selling them through the TP is a thing for an even smaller part of those players. The vast majority of players don’t care about Dusk at all.

Full berserker gear will always be meta until they rework toughness and the games’ aggro mechanics. I don’t think they have the time or desire to do that.

In my opinion, if you are wearing berserker gear in every slot (so 0 gear toughness), than every time you get hit you should be downed (glass cannon=glass gets hit it breaks) Highest dps should always have aggro, which means that they would have to rework how people “tank” in this game. Once they rework “tanking”, healing would have to be adjusted. We have then moved down the path back towards the trinity, which they kind of have done already. But we can’t have great single player heals because they refuse to separate PvP skills from PvE.

I don’t think they want to go back to the trinity, so people running full raids of almost everyone in berserker gear will never change.

^^ You’re just asking for trinity … maybe you don’t realize it.

Obtena.7952:

^^ You’re just asking for trinity … maybe you don’t realize it.

My main in GW1 was monk, and I personally would like it back, in the next expansion maybe. Not sure if I would actually want the trinity in GW2 though (kind of on the fence about it). I would have preferred they not add raids too, but we see how that is going.

tolunart.2095:

Paulytnz.7619:

Players ask in game for info all the time as well as the ideal builds to go and gear. I see it all the time and you can geuess what is pretty much answered all the time. Not only that they also see other players killing faster than them if they are in anything besides the fast killing gear and will straight out ask them how they are killing faster. People are not totally blind or stupid as you may be trying to make out they are.
.

You’re continuing to make assumptions. Casual isn’t stupid, it just means that they have different goals than you do. Hardcore players like to challenge themselves and test the limits of themselves and the game. Not every player does this, some people just log in to chat with their friends or to have fun and play the game while they have a little spare time. Researching the BiS equipment, let alone grinding until their fingers fall off to get it, doesn’t appeal to everyone. There’s nothing wrong with this, there are thousands of small details built into the game for players to discover, most of them have nothing to do with killing monsters or collecting loot.

On the forums there are a couple dozen regulars, perhaps a hundred or so who post once in a while, a few thousand who lurk and read the posts but don’t comment. We tend to forget that while this seems like a large number, it’s only a few % of the total number of people playing the game. The average player has never even visited the forums, many of them don’t even know it exists.

Back when he posted in the BLTC forum, John Smith occasionally offered a glimpse at the size of the active player base by posting how many items passed through the trading post during a short period of time. While you think in terms of dozens or hundreds of items, the reality is that 100x to 1000x the number of transactions happens compared to what we imagine. A while back someone spoke about manipulating the precursor market and he mentioned that approximately one Dusk was sold every hour on average. Think about how many hours this game has been around, even if the rate fluctuates over time, thousands upon thousands of Dusks have been spawned, transformed, bought and sold, packed away in the bank against future use, etc.

And still, Legendaries are a concern to only a small part of the player base, and buying/selling them through the TP is a thing for an even smaller part of those players. The vast majority of players don’t care about Dusk at all.

Funny how it’s now you coming out with numbers which I will not comment more on. You are ignoring anything that I am saying about my experiences from playing the game with both zerk or other gear. You are also throwing out stuff totally unrelated to this entire topic. Not only that but this all started from my 1 comment which went as such:

I think part of the problem is Anet balances the game around zerk gear. Or at least I think they do maybe?

I don’t know what to say but if I was someone else reading that comment I would see it as someone posting an opinion on what THEY thought or see/experience rather than straight out claiming as fact. Okay maybe I did not add a similar disclaimer before I dropped those numbers (90-95% or whatever) which I guess I should have since some ppl tend to take everything said around here as absolutes or something that needs to be backed up with proof/statistics or whatever else. People’s own experiences or guesses count for nothing unless you have those barebone facts and numbers. Really, does it do anyone any good to be the one who is “correct” or has all the “figures and numbers”? Does it really add anything at all to this thread or topic being discussed by pointing to someone and saying “your numbers are wrong, lets create a whole other topic/discussion on why you are wrong”.

Can we just please stay on topic? Anything ele is just pointless.

My opinion is that it seems anet balances the regular Joe Shmo trash mob around zerk or now high power condi damage based on how fast the mobs are downed with those gears vs say a PVT. My opinion is that Anet may look at any other gear such as PVT to be used only if:

A – You are new to the game and need to learn the basics of combat.
B – Have poor reaction times or ping and may need those extra seconds/hits taken to survive and react.

C – Used in very specific situations such as raids or dungeons etc where people may not care how slow the fight goes bla bla bla but it would still certainly go faster if the other gear was used.

D – Use it for peace of mind, roleplay or just mucking about playing with things and not caring how fast you kill things and maybe even feel strong that you can be the last one standing after taking on a lot of mobs all at once.

Again all of this is my opinion and even if so, there is nothing wrong with that. However as related to this thread and being on topic my opinion still stands that if Anet or even the player base wants the “perceived” “Meta” to change they need to offer more viable/attractive reasons to have players use this gear for the more typical part of the gameplay which is not covered in my examples above from A-D.

Lastly, why would Anet care if the trash mobs were balanced around zerk or not? If you go zerk or condi you have that “risk vs reward”. Risk being you may get downed/killed. Reward being you move on to your next kill faster, thus less boring/tedium and more loot (but even the more loot is debatable based on the rng and loot tables here but that is another topic altogether!). If you go in any other gear, sure you have a greater chance of surviving but more than likely it’s going to take you longer to kill and make it a little more tedious bordering on boredom. Again in my opinion I would think Anet would see this as a good system and working as intended with no reason to change it.

maniamsmart.7981:

Let’s Talk Build Diversity

With the multitude of stat sets in the game, everyone still only runs Berserker in PVE. I’d love to see some other stats actually become more viable. I’d love to build a Guardian Healer and Tank, or a Warrior Tank with some damage, or any sort of combinations, but there just isn’t a place for that in the game (excluding raids of course).

The other day I was gearing up my Warrior, and one my friends told me that I should go get some Soldier’s or Knight’s gear, but let’s be real, you really only need Berserker’s. Any group running full Zerk in a dungeon will be quicker at completing it then a group without full Zerk, which sucks, because it encourages everyone to build Zerk. This got me thinking and into a discussion where I thought about why people only run Zerker gear, and here’s what I came up with (there’s probably more, but these stood out).

The Rally System
Because you can just build pure damage, as long as you or someone near you kills the mob, you come back with a substantial amount of health. This allows players to play reckless and go all in without much penalty. I feel like the system needs to be revamped, at least in raids it’s a bit better and you can’t just go full DPS and mindlessly mash your keyboard hoping to rally.

Healing Power Is Broken
Why does it not scale with revive speed? This would encourage people to actually perhaps build it more; maybe allow it to have faster revive speed, or instant revive (maybe too OP, but you’re sacrificing damage for healing so why not?). In general healing power builds don’t feel rewarding because you don’t really ever have an idea of how much you really ARE helping the team or how much you really ARE making an impact. You just see a ton of green numbers.

Out of Combat Healing
Even if you run past a ton of mobs, you won’t die anyway because once out of combat your health shoots up anyway. And even if you do die, then you can have enough power probably to kill and just rally again. Why not make food a requirement to health regen, or having to go near a camp, or something. That would be more interesting IMO, and would require people to build a bit different maybe?

No Need for Threat Control, So No Tanks
The PVE content is already easy, and even if it wasn’t we don’t any major threat control abilities where we can pull mob aggro on the fly whenever we want. And there isn’t a need to even because everything dies so quickly. That’s why we see tanks only really needed in raids, because they CAN control the threat and those bosses don’t die instantly.

Those are just my thoughts and opinions, I may be wrong, but let me know yours. I’ve done a video on this topic where I talk a bit more in depth about the topic with more examples below if you’re interested:
https://youtu.be/zJRfWlgN8BU

What content are you talking about? Do you even play this game?

Glass gear will always be meta because killing things fast means earning rewards fast. Most people aren’t here to roleplay as a “tank” or “healer” and honestly if you want to do that there’s really nothing stopping you.

Needing food active to get the out of combat regen was the best part about age of conan tbh, everything else is fine though don’t worry.

It made the food crafting quite important.

Paulytnz.7619:

But you can’t tell me that fighting creatures in anything other than zerk/high cond builds for a great deal of the classes doesn’t take longer and get’s to the point of total boredom. Unless you build your char to a very good balance in the other gear (which I think I have managed to get very close for my PVT Engi) you are stuck like this and could very well get tempted to “the dark side” which I am sure many people have.

Hm. I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree, because I don’t find it as tedious as you make it out to be. Obviously, it goes fastest when you spec for pure power, but unless I’m fighting something intended for a group, it’s rare for me to get bored.

I can’t help wondering if maybe many runs through the content might skew a person’s perspective a bit, and make zerker feel like the baseline. My main uses Travelers runes, and everyone else feels a little slow by comparison, and I’m sure the same effect happens when you get used to zerker speeds.

Please keep the discussion polite and on topic or it will be at risk for closure. Thank you!

Paulytnz.7619:

Funny how it’s now you coming out with numbers which I will not comment more on. You are ignoring anything that I am saying about my experiences from playing the game with both zerk or other gear. You are also throwing out stuff totally unrelated to this entire topic. Not only that but this all started from my 1 comment which went as such:

General statements are not numbers. I’m looking at the big picture, while you are projecting your personal bias on the entire playerbase – statements like saying that anything “less” than zerk gear is too slow and boring. I’ve never used it and while the game isn’t perfect, I’ve never found combat boring outside of the world boss events where I used to semi-afk while 100 or so toons chipped away at the boss’s hp total for 45 seconds.

It doesn’t matter anyway. Zerk is not the be-all and end-all of the game, and the devs don’t tune around it, they tune around the idea that nearly every build is some flavor of dps because they built the game to work without tanks and healers. It’s the Trinity that is the artificial concept, they didn’t have that sort of thing in tabletop RPGs which these games are heavily based on.

DeceiverX.8361:

DGraves.3720:

DeceiverX.8361:

… actually, stat-per-stat, DPS is the least efficient way to play the game…

How do you figure? This cannot be true alongside this:

People will always pursue the most time-efficient option to beat the game.

Since no other resource but time is ever brought into question the only efficient way to play is through DPS. The Magi’s Warrior example swapped time for energy taking far longer but essentially standing around doing little to nothing quite happily. But since the reward system works off of time (Kills = loot, faster kills = more kills = more loot) there’s no real value to endurance/player-energy conservation (AFK gameplay).

Stat-per-stat efficiency means that in the case of taking and receiving damage, building full DPS is the least efficient when making exchanges from stats alone.

Time-wise, obviously optimizing damage is best. But that’s exactly it; you implicitly assumed the only optimization is based on time, which is what my post states when claiming this aspect of video games is often heavily-enforced by either a forced trinity system or a “meta” built around the game’s systems to typically optimize time.

Well, I’m just thinking that Stat-Per-Stat Efficiency [SPSE] would reflect “odds of victory” or something. Killing something in 3s for instance versus 7s is an increase in odds of victory of (alot) since it’s not linear and you have to consider attack opportunities and all sorts of other stuff. This is especially true in fights where it is one against many.

Do you think that SPSE changes based on the encounter? I mean, yes, but rather should one take and drag multiple sets based on such and odds of countermeasures? Because in PvE open world doing anything but killing fastest seems to lower efficiency and odds of survival to be honest. You can’t “out toughness” anything in the game unless you’re a heavy armor class.

Why do armor classes exist in this game again?

DGraves.3720:

Why do armor classes exist in this game again?

Fantasy games have embraced the Dungeons & Dragons mentality for so long – mages wear cloth robes, thieves wear flexible leather, warriors wear sheets of hammered metal – that games without it are the exception, not the rule.

DGraves.3720:

DeceiverX.8361:

DGraves.3720:

DeceiverX.8361:

… actually, stat-per-stat, DPS is the least efficient way to play the game…

How do you figure? This cannot be true alongside this:

People will always pursue the most time-efficient option to beat the game.

Since no other resource but time is ever brought into question the only efficient way to play is through DPS. The Magi’s Warrior example swapped time for energy taking far longer but essentially standing around doing little to nothing quite happily. But since the reward system works off of time (Kills = loot, faster kills = more kills = more loot) there’s no real value to endurance/player-energy conservation (AFK gameplay).

Stat-per-stat efficiency means that in the case of taking and receiving damage, building full DPS is the least efficient when making exchanges from stats alone.

Time-wise, obviously optimizing damage is best. But that’s exactly it; you implicitly assumed the only optimization is based on time, which is what my post states when claiming this aspect of video games is often heavily-enforced by either a forced trinity system or a “meta” built around the game’s systems to typically optimize time.

Well, I’m just thinking that Stat-Per-Stat Efficiency [SPSE] would reflect “odds of victory” or something. Killing something in 3s for instance versus 7s is an increase in odds of victory of (alot) since it’s not linear and you have to consider attack opportunities and all sorts of other stuff. This is especially true in fights where it is one against many.

Do you think that SPSE changes based on the encounter? I mean, yes, but rather should one take and drag multiple sets based on such and odds of countermeasures? Because in PvE open world doing anything but killing fastest seems to lower efficiency and odds of survival to be honest. You can’t “out toughness” anything in the game unless you’re a heavy armor class.

Why do armor classes exist in this game again?

Mathematically speaking, pure DPS specs reduce your TTK slower than it reduces enemy TTK on you, is what he’s saying. So, speccing out of Berzerker would increase “Odds of Victory” – but those are hardcapped at 100% regardless of build (Unless you suck at the game. But the meta doesn’t care about people who suck at the game. It’s tuned to the best).

So basically the conclusion is anet may or may not be balancing around zerker gear, but one has to wonder if its more of the community then anything, I imagine that people have builds that work really well in pvp, wvw, or even pve they dont share and may not be listed in the meta, why would you share a build you made that works with strangers?

Ryou.2398:

So basically the conclusion is anet may or may not be balancing around zerker gear, but one has to wonder if its more of the community then anything, I imagine that people have builds that work really well in pvp, wvw, or even pve they dont share and may not be listed in the meta, why would you share a build you made that works with strangers?

I think it’s simpler than that. A great majority of players don’t get on the forums or reddit and discuss such things. They are actually in the game playing and having fun. I know in my guild there were a large number of players who didn’t even bother with “finding the perfect build” but just played around with it until they found what they liked and went from there. So it’s not that they don’t want to share, but that they just don’t think about it.

tolunart.2095:

Paulytnz.7619:

Funny how it’s now you coming out with numbers which I will not comment more on. You are ignoring anything that I am saying about my experiences from playing the game with both zerk or other gear. You are also throwing out stuff totally unrelated to this entire topic. Not only that but this all started from my 1 comment which went as such:

General statements are not numbers. I’m looking at the big picture, while you are projecting your personal bias on the entire playerbase – statements like saying that anything “less” than zerk gear is too slow and boring. I’ve never used it and while the game isn’t perfect, I’ve never found combat boring outside of the world boss events where I used to semi-afk while 100 or so toons chipped away at the boss’s hp total for 45 seconds.

It doesn’t matter anyway. Zerk is not the be-all and end-all of the game, and the devs don’t tune around it, they tune around the idea that nearly every build is some flavor of dps because they built the game to work without tanks and healers. It’s the Trinity that is the artificial concept, they didn’t have that sort of thing in tabletop RPGs which these games are heavily based on.

How exactly am I biased when 90% of my play time here has been in PVT gear and only NOW I am changing to zerk or condi? Again when I say things like “anything less than zerk is slow or boring” is from MY own exp/opinion. Did I say anywhere it applies to everyone? Wow you really can’t let things go can you?

I do find it funny however how you say you are looking at the big picture yet you are commenting so much on a certain stat gear you have never tried using yourself. How can you comment on it if you have NEVER used it? The mind boggles. Here I am someone who has used PVT for 90% of my gameplay through 11 chars through all their stories and world completes. All through LS2, all through HOT story and played them all in PvP. I comment from my experiences from all of that from both zerk gear and PvT. And yet you say what I say means nothing and you shoot down a certain set when you have never used it? Wow really come on now just let it go….

PS The following looks like numbers to me and not a general statement:

“On the forums there are a couple dozen regulars, perhaps a hundred or so who post once in a while, a few thousand who lurk”

I will let it go if you do. :P

Sartharina.3542:

Mathematically speaking, pure DPS specs reduce your TTK slower than it reduces enemy TTK on you, is what he’s saying.

It’s not really true, however. That’s because this math completely ignores existence of active defenses, which have much greater impact on survivability than defensive stats. It also ignores the oneshots some bosses have.
In reality, the tradeoff is not constant, and heavily depends on class, build, and mobs fought. Sometimes it favours defence, but most of the time it doesn’t.

Paulytnz.7619:

tolunart.2095:

Paulytnz.7619:

Funny how it’s now you coming out with numbers which I will not comment more on. You are ignoring anything that I am saying about my experiences from playing the game with both zerk or other gear. You are also throwing out stuff totally unrelated to this entire topic. Not only that but this all started from my 1 comment which went as such:

General statements are not numbers. I’m looking at the big picture, while you are projecting your personal bias on the entire playerbase – statements like saying that anything “less” than zerk gear is too slow and boring. I’ve never used it and while the game isn’t perfect, I’ve never found combat boring outside of the world boss events where I used to semi-afk while 100 or so toons chipped away at the boss’s hp total for 45 seconds.

It doesn’t matter anyway. Zerk is not the be-all and end-all of the game, and the devs don’t tune around it, they tune around the idea that nearly every build is some flavor of dps because they built the game to work without tanks and healers. It’s the Trinity that is the artificial concept, they didn’t have that sort of thing in tabletop RPGs which these games are heavily based on.

How exactly am I biased when 90% of my play time here has been in PVT gear and only NOW I am changing to zerk or condi? Again when I say things like “anything less than zerk is slow or boring” is from MY own exp/opinion. Did I say anywhere it applies to everyone? Wow you really can’t let things go can you?

I do find it funny however how you say you are looking at the big picture yet you are commenting so much on a certain stat gear you have never tried using yourself. How can you comment on it if you have NEVER used it? The mind boggles. Here I am someone who has used PVT for 90% of my gameplay through 11 chars through all their stories and world completes. All through LS2, all through HOT story and played them all in PvP. I comment from my experiences from all of that from both zerk gear and PvT. And yet you say what I say means nothing and you shoot down a certain set when you have never used it? Wow really come on now just let it go….

PS The following looks like numbers to me and not a general statement:

“On the forums there are a couple dozen regulars, perhaps a hundred or so who post once in a while, a few thousand who lurk”

I will let it go if you do. :P

Thats true, there are tons of people who dont even go to the forums here atleast, plus some use only reddit.

tolunart.2095:

General statements are not numbers. I’m looking at the big picture, while you are projecting your personal bias on the entire playerbase – statements like saying that anything “less” than zerk gear is too slow and boring. I’ve never used it and while the game isn’t perfect, I’ve never found combat boring outside of the world boss events where I used to semi-afk while 100 or so toons chipped away at the boss’s hp total for 45 seconds.

It doesn’t matter anyway. Zerk is not the be-all and end-all of the game, and the devs don’t tune around it, they tune around the idea that nearly every build is some flavor of dps because they built the game to work without tanks and healers. It’s the Trinity that is the artificial concept, they didn’t have that sort of thing in tabletop RPGs which these games are heavily based on.

[/quote]

Zerk is the be all and end all of the game – thats the end result of removing specific roles and allowing player stacking with the down state system. If you want to use pvt gear well than thats fine and dandy – A dead body does no dps regardless of what armor they are wearing.

Lets be real here – with the amount of blinds, evade, blocks, stuns ( from not only your own skills but the players around you) and lastly dodges to minimize incoming…….but your focus still is on vitality and armor to survive – most likely you are not avoiding the mechanics. The orange colored floor is not a bonus point mechanic.

stat spreads that exist within the PvE meta,

Beserker,
Viper,
Sinister,
Commander’s,
Rabid,
Knights,
Cavaliers,
Magi,
Cleric,
Assassin,
Zealot,

I am sorry, what was the problem again?

pdavis.8031:

What amazes me, is that conversation is still going after 3+ years.
One of the main reasons that we got gear like Viper’s and Sinister’s is because of this very conversation. Zerk gear was WAY to prevalent, and conditions really kinda sucked. Which is also why they changed them, previously there was only a 25 stack limit. Which really hurt any condi builds, as condi damage would get overridden by incidental condis from a zerk build.

But in any case, Zerk has bene the PvE meta since forever. Part of the reason that it won’t change any time soon is that many of the “older” players have already invested in beserker gear on many of their toons, and see no reason to change. Plus, newer players coming in look to the older players and see berserker gear everywhere, so they follow suit, instead of finding out what works best for them.
The reality is that you can complete any open world content, and most dungeons (exluding raids) in whatever build/gear you want. I was soloing dungeons with an axe/axe valk warrior, and rabid necro (even after I was told that it would be near impossible because those didn’t output enough damage).

Viper and Sinister are also less accessible. Berserker is easily crafted, bought from TP/karma/dungeon.

echo.2053:

Zerk is the be all and end all of the game – thats the end result of removing specific roles and allowing player stacking with the down state system. If you want to use pvt gear well than thats fine and dandy – A dead body does no dps regardless of what armor they are wearing.

Lets be real here – with the amount of blinds, evade, blocks, stuns ( from not only your own skills but the players around you) and lastly dodges to minimize incoming…….but your focus still is on vitality and armor to survive – most likely you are not avoiding the mechanics. The orange colored floor is not a bonus point mechanic.

I’m old and I play the game to have fun, not practice training muscle memory to press the dodge key. What I do works just fine, thanx.

tolunart.2095:

echo.2053:

Zerk is the be all and end all of the game – thats the end result of removing specific roles and allowing player stacking with the down state system. If you want to use pvt gear well than thats fine and dandy – A dead body does no dps regardless of what armor they are wearing.

Lets be real here – with the amount of blinds, evade, blocks, stuns ( from not only your own skills but the players around you) and lastly dodges to minimize incoming…….but your focus still is on vitality and armor to survive – most likely you are not avoiding the mechanics. The orange colored floor is not a bonus point mechanic.

I’m old and I play the game to have fun, not practice training muscle memory to press the dodge key. What I do works just fine, thanx.

I don’t think people are saying what you do doesn’t work, so no reason to take offense to that. It’s simply a fact that optimal play has no room for defensive stats; it’s simply a consequence of how the game is designed.

Obtena.7952:

I don’t think people are saying what you do doesn’t work, so no reason to take offense to that.

From the post I responded to:

" If you want to use pvt gear well than thats fine and dandy – A dead body does no dps regardless of what armor they are wearing."

I’m not offended though, I learned a long time ago to ignore those kinds of kittens and their mewlings.

Palador.2170:

Khisanth.2948:

That is already in the game. Not only does it prevent regen it even applies a degen but the behavior does not progress as you describe.

Oh? Where is this?

Blighting Towers in Dragon’s Stand.

This conversation intrigued me because I recently tried different builds, including conditions. I crafted a whole set of Vipers and Sinister armour and weapons. I was exited to try conditions in open world… but I discovered pretty soon why people have said don’t bother with them in open world. Sure, they do kill, but slowly. You can solo a condition build, but it takes more running around, dodging, reapplying conditions, waiting for things to die. I went back to my glass cannon berserker build and even in HOT it’s more effective and more fun. :/

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

This conversation intrigued me because I recently tried different builds, including conditions. I crafted a whole set of Vipers and Sinister armour and weapons. I was exited to try conditions in open world… but I discovered pretty soon why people have said don’t bother with them in open world. Sure, they do kill, but slowly. You can solo a condition build, but it takes more running around, dodging, reapplying conditions, waiting for things to die. I went back to my glass cannon berserker build and even in HOT it’s more effective and more fun. :/

Heh that is a bit amusing and also misleading.

Just because you have on condition stats won’t guarantee that it is a good condition build. Condition builds also require ramp up time so anything that dies quickly is going to feel slower.

Sartharina.3542:

Mathematically speaking, pure DPS specs reduce your TTK slower than it reduces enemy TTK on you, is what he’s saying. So, speccing out of Berzerker would increase “Odds of Victory” – but those are hardcapped at 100% regardless of build (Unless you suck at the game. But the meta doesn’t care about people who suck at the game. It’s tuned to the best).

Is this true for all armor classes though? I’d have to scrutinize the math… I don’t think that it works like that since toughness is a linear flat percentage per point. But that’s another thread.

tolunart.2095:

DGraves.3720:

Why do armor classes exist in this game again?

Fantasy games have embraced the Dungeons & Dragons mentality for so long – mages wear cloth robes, thieves wear flexible leather, warriors wear sheets of hammered metal – that games without it are the exception, not the rule.

I thought GW2 was trying to be the exception. :p

DGraves.3720:

Sartharina.3542:

Mathematically speaking, pure DPS specs reduce your TTK slower than it reduces enemy TTK on you, is what he’s saying. So, speccing out of Berzerker would increase “Odds of Victory” – but those are hardcapped at 100% regardless of build (Unless you suck at the game. But the meta doesn’t care about people who suck at the game. It’s tuned to the best).

Is this true for all armor classes though? I’d have to scrutinize the math… I don’t think that it works like that since toughness is a linear flat percentage per point. But that’s another thread.

tolunart.2095:

DGraves.3720:

Why do armor classes exist in this game again?

Fantasy games have embraced the Dungeons & Dragons mentality for so long – mages wear cloth robes, thieves wear flexible leather, warriors wear sheets of hammered metal – that games without it are the exception, not the rule.

I thought GW2 was trying to be the exception. :p

It holds true for almost everything. You’ll see some exceptions in the case of some rather extreme-scaling builds like a thief running DA/CS/DrD, but otherwise, it should hold. And while yes, the game is designed for active defenses to be enough to not die to everything (which is what I said initially regarding breaking the norm and allowing all players to beat the content), the PvE meta is only going to adapt to the way people wish to most consistently/quickly beat the content. A forced trinity is a strategy system designed by the game maker, where the group composition in its exactness is a sub-optimization made by the players. This sub-optimization constitutes just as strict of a player-driven meta as anything else.

For those who’ve played a bit of League of Legends, ask yourself the following question: Why is the established meta 1 top, 1 mid, 2 bottom, and 1 jungle? Why not 2 mid? It’s objectively no different in terms of the distribution of players, and could pose several advantages from a strategy POV. It’s 2 mid because that’s just how it is, and you’d see a failing bot lane otherwise. This isn’t a design flaw with the game inhibiting diversity of how people may distribute themselves; it’s rather a player-made optimization that has shaped how the game is played entirely, just as how people take and desire certain gear combos, classes, and the likes for certain content.

Ultimately, the choice is yours to play whatever you want, and you’d still succeed. Actually, you’re mathematically more likely to succeed deviating from the meta. The only constraint is an artificial time limit the community itself has set as time has progressed in order to advance the optimization further.

And that artificial time limit on completion time is the result of the content being so stale and the mechanics are often very straightforward (especially apparent in older, non-updated areas like dungeons). The desire to be doing anything but running DPS isn’t really there, because people have mastered the content and in many cases, are truly bored with it. As such, time of completion is the only thing that matters to people, because they’d rather not spend 35 mins in CoF even if nobody went into downed state or even low health, and would rather spend 10 with maybe a death or two.

And before you jump up saying that maybe death isn’t punishing enough, that’s not really a proper solution, because then you’d have the “average” player no longer be able to complete the content when playing DPS, or have DPS builds be punished on the individual level if he dies for perhaps a tankier player failing to maintain aggro if the player-meta deemed that’s how the content should be played. Not to mention early players would struggle immensely with the content being so difficult. Go try dungeons in berserker gear in blues and greens like the original players, and you’ll see a tremendous increase in difficulty (albeit for the wrong reasons); why punish new or early-release players for wanting to play DPS and being so squishy, then? That seems just as flawed and would have instantiated just as strict of a non-DPS meta for a long period of time, in all likelihood.

An optimization will always exist, unless everything is determined solely by wide-margin RNG, which kind of defeats the entire purpose of an action game; the optimization is either the result of the developers forcing a trinity/role system (not what GW2 is trying to do at all and as you said, is something I also think is a concept stuck to the “norm” of DnD-era RPG’s), or something made entirely by the players to get a consistent and acceptable yield in respects to content completion.

The only way to remove the issue is to have a perfectly-designed system have in all states the same output yield (time in this case) for all inputs (player classes and builds). This would be a tremendously difficult task to achieve and would be defined as a perfect game, which for theoretical reasons pertaining to game theory, does not exist when any human interaction is involved whatsoever, and is only doable on an extremely small scale with no dynamic inputs.