Guild Wars 2

There seems to be this argument about a new race not happening in the near future of GW2. This opinion is backed by the fact that making a new race require a lot of work because of all the different armors that would have to be re-done and future armors for said race. THIS is backed up by a couple of dev comments stating how hard it is to make a different armor type every race, which explains why we dont get an abundance of armor per major content update.

Well I will tell you that all your assumptions are wrong. What Anet has created (and the reason why they struggle in making armor), is a different body type for almost EVERY race available in GW2. We have a small, medium, large, and beastly body-type. This sums up almost every body-type available in your average mmo. Meaning that there is a veryyyyyy high probability that any future race added to the game WILL fit the body-type of a current race. This means that ANY armor created or existing will be able to be applied to said race without any difficulties.

This completely debunks the assumption that there will be no new race added to the future of GW2.

EDIT: the race that you play in this game is irrelevant. What matter is the position of commander. If the new race gets introduced through living world then the stories can merge and eventually having said race as a commander would make sense. Now I’m sure a few tweaks and twists would have to be made in the storyline. Who knows, maybe in future storylines we turn down our position and promote a fellow member as the new commander, making it easier to include a new race.

EDIT 12/28/2016: The introduction of a new race is predominantly story-based. Lets break it down; a new race Xpac comes with a race (obviously), maps, armor, weapons, architecture, story, depth, lore, and culture.

NOW, lets see what a regular GW2 update contains; new maps, armor, weapons, architecture, story, little depth, little lore, and sometimes culture. Now do you see the big picture?

For Xpac one they were deciding between a new race or new class….THATS IT! They werent deciding on new race vs. more features, or new race vs. more xpac. They simply decided that a new class would bring more balance to the game.

If anything i think this game needs an Xpac that focuses more on lore expansion and story development, which would be ideal with the addition of a new race.

Seems logical, and if it’s true for most outfits/armors, it becomes so easy it’d probably actually provide MORE content than work; maybe, but there are other factors. At least, it’d be highly viable to see a new race each xpac or so…

Fenom.9457:

Seems logical, and if it’s true for most outfits/armors, it becomes so easy it’d probably actually provide MORE content than work; maybe, but there are other factors. At least, it’d be highly viable to see a new race each xpac or so…

The issue with a new race in a game such as this is the lore that would be added along with it, which includes a story line which would bring said race to fight alongside us….which would include a major city and other cities/villages.

This is a summary of what was said in 2013 about new races and new professions

“In 2013 in an interview with Matt Visual, Colin talked about the possibility of adding another race that the player base really wanted. (and we STILL really want them) After that interview, he went back to ANet and they had a discussion on adding another race vs adding another class. They came to the conclusion that adding another race really did not add much to the game while adding another class added a lot to the game. Which is why they stopped looking at adding another race and went full steam into working on the Revenant.

The reasons for adding a new race would be:
1. A new playable race
2. New stories and lore
3. Adding a few racial skills and elites
4. A new city and zone for 1-15 levels that do not affect the core plot with Zhaitan/LS 1 & 2.
5. Appease fans who are asking for it

The reasons against adding a new race:
1. Hiring a new male/female voice actor to be the voice of the main characters (pricy and gotta work their schedules)
2. Building another personal story (takes time)
3. Personalizing to the race, certain interactions with NPCs (racism, curiosity, etc) (often overlooked and takes a lot of time)
4. Adjusting EVERY piece of armor in the entire game(and those yet to come) to fit the new race (This would take months on its own)
5. Slows down production on all future armors, racial interactions, scenes where your playable character has to speak new lines, etc. (for every set, they have to customize 6-18 pieces of armor for 6 different races)
6. Racial skills are generally far weaker than the normal class skills/used rarely (nornbear pre nerf exception)
7. Setting the precedent that with an expansion you get a new race (meaning someday they would be making 6-18 pieces of armor for 7-8 races… ouch on the budget)

Pros for making a new class:
1. This directly affects the core of GW2. The gameplay, the fights!
2. Completely new playstyle and experience for players to enjoy playing as/with/against 3. Potentially turning the pve/pvp/wvw meta on its head- goodbye GWEN
4. Addition of Revenant lore
5. Bringing in that missing blend from ritualists/dervish from GWf1
6. A new change to team compositions that is drastically different than it would be if it was just a new race

Cons:
1. Another class to balance skills/traits/specialties
Taking the arguments for one or the other with those facts in mind, I am not surprised that ANet chose to pursue the Revenant instead of Kodan/Tengu. In future expansions they may make the same choice again. In terms of affecting gameplay, adding another class will always have a bigger impact than adding a new race. Because of that we may never see a new playable race. It just forces Anet to dedicate much more resources every time they make something new.

On the flip side, ANet does recognize and even Colin himself would love to play a new race. But can they justify the cost? Perhaps if the community spoke loudly enough."

Link to full after-party notes/commentary – http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2tsiox/pax_afterparty_lessons_learned/

Just a flesh wound.3589:

This is a summary of what was said in 2013 about new races and new professions

“In 2013 in an interview with Matt Visual, Colin talked about the possibility of adding another race that the player base really wanted. (and we STILL really want them) After that interview, he went back to ANet and they had a discussion on adding another race vs adding another class. They came to the conclusion that adding another race really did not add much to the game while adding another class added a lot to the game. Which is why they stopped looking at adding another race and went full steam into working on the Revenant.

The reasons for adding a new race would be:
1. A new playable race
2. New stories and lore
3. Adding a few racial skills and elites
4. A new city and zone for 1-15 levels that do not affect the core plot with Zhaitan/LS 1 & 2.
5. Appease fans who are asking for it

The reasons against adding a new race:
1. Hiring a new male/female voice actor to be the voice of the main characters (pricy and gotta work their schedules)
2. Building another personal story (takes time)
3. Personalizing to the race, certain interactions with NPCs (racism, curiosity, etc) (often overlooked and takes a lot of time)
4. Adjusting EVERY piece of armor in the entire game(and those yet to come) to fit the new race (This would take months on its own)
5. Slows down production on all future armors, racial interactions, scenes where your playable character has to speak new lines, etc. (for every set, they have to customize 6-18 pieces of armor for 6 different races)
6. Racial skills are generally far weaker than the normal class skills/used rarely (nornbear pre nerf exception)
7. Setting the precedent that with an expansion you get a new race (meaning someday they would be making 6-18 pieces of armor for 7-8 races… ouch on the budget)

Pros for making a new class:
1. This directly affects the core of GW2. The gameplay, the fights!
2. Completely new playstyle and experience for players to enjoy playing as/with/against 3. Potentially turning the pve/pvp/wvw meta on its head- goodbye GWEN
4. Addition of Revenant lore
5. Bringing in that missing blend from ritualists/dervish from GWf1
6. A new change to team compositions that is drastically different than it would be if it was just a new race

Cons:
1. Another class to balance skills/traits/specialties
Taking the arguments for one or the other with those facts in mind, I am not surprised that ANet chose to pursue the Revenant instead of Kodan/Tengu. In future expansions they may make the same choice again. In terms of affecting gameplay, adding another class will always have a bigger impact than adding a new race. Because of that we may never see a new playable race. It just forces Anet to dedicate much more resources every time they make something new.

On the flip side, ANet does recognize and even Colin himself would love to play a new race. But can they justify the cost? Perhaps if the community spoke loudly enough."

Link to full after-party notes/commentary – http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2tsiox/pax_afterparty_lessons_learned/

Coilin is nonexistent now. Additionally this tells me absolutely nothing. All it states is why people like new races….the hardwork required for a new race….for ANY mmo….and the obvious…balancing. This clearly states nothing more, oh and that for the first Xpac they decided to focus on a new class instead of a new race…Xpac 1 already came out….meaning that none of this is relevant anymore. Sorry

Adry.7512:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

This is a summary of what was said in 2013 about new races and new professions

“In 2013 in an interview with Matt Visual, Colin talked about the possibility of adding another race that the player base really wanted. (and we STILL really want them) After that interview, he went back to ANet and they had a discussion on adding another race vs adding another class. They came to the conclusion that adding another race really did not add much to the game while adding another class added a lot to the game. Which is why they stopped looking at adding another race and went full steam into working on the Revenant.

The reasons for adding a new race would be:
1. A new playable race
2. New stories and lore
3. Adding a few racial skills and elites
4. A new city and zone for 1-15 levels that do not affect the core plot with Zhaitan/LS 1 & 2.
5. Appease fans who are asking for it

The reasons against adding a new race:
1. Hiring a new male/female voice actor to be the voice of the main characters (pricy and gotta work their schedules)
2. Building another personal story (takes time)
3. Personalizing to the race, certain interactions with NPCs (racism, curiosity, etc) (often overlooked and takes a lot of time)
4. Adjusting EVERY piece of armor in the entire game(and those yet to come) to fit the new race (This would take months on its own)
5. Slows down production on all future armors, racial interactions, scenes where your playable character has to speak new lines, etc. (for every set, they have to customize 6-18 pieces of armor for 6 different races)
6. Racial skills are generally far weaker than the normal class skills/used rarely (nornbear pre nerf exception)
7. Setting the precedent that with an expansion you get a new race (meaning someday they would be making 6-18 pieces of armor for 7-8 races… ouch on the budget)

Pros for making a new class:
1. This directly affects the core of GW2. The gameplay, the fights!
2. Completely new playstyle and experience for players to enjoy playing as/with/against 3. Potentially turning the pve/pvp/wvw meta on its head- goodbye GWEN
4. Addition of Revenant lore
5. Bringing in that missing blend from ritualists/dervish from GWf1
6. A new change to team compositions that is drastically different than it would be if it was just a new race

Cons:
1. Another class to balance skills/traits/specialties
Taking the arguments for one or the other with those facts in mind, I am not surprised that ANet chose to pursue the Revenant instead of Kodan/Tengu. In future expansions they may make the same choice again. In terms of affecting gameplay, adding another class will always have a bigger impact than adding a new race. Because of that we may never see a new playable race. It just forces Anet to dedicate much more resources every time they make something new.

On the flip side, ANet does recognize and even Colin himself would love to play a new race. But can they justify the cost? Perhaps if the community spoke loudly enough."

Link to full after-party notes/commentary – http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2tsiox/pax_afterparty_lessons_learned/

Coilin is nonexistent now. Additionally this tells me absolutely nothing. All it states is why people like new races….the hardwork required for a new race….for ANY mmo….and the obvious…balancing. This clearly states nothing more, oh and that for the first Xpac they decided to focus on a new class instead of a new race…Xpac 1 already came out….meaning that none of this is relevant anymore. Sorry

Just because you don’t like his answer doesn’t mean it’s not relevant and just because someone isn’t working for a company anymore doesn’t mean that the arguments against it that he used (voice actors, armor, extra time and money from now on to do all new content) suddenly goes “poof.” They explained the reasons why new races were unlikely. Unless those reasons have changed then they are still valid.

The VA currently is a lot of work for them, especially as they have ramped up the amount of dialogue. That on its own is probably the single biggest reason new races are highly unlikely. Scheduling plus costs as a non-trivial obstacle they would need to add into an already demanding amount of work they have to do.

No one is ruling out a new race entirely, although the likelihood is very much stacked against it still. As for what is stated in the OP, whether the race is built on existing framework is not entirely relevant, since races have individual details to consider – Charr and their tail for eg. Players want Largos, yet the “wings” cause issues there. And so on.

Adding another playable race is unnecessary. They’ve already demonstrated that five is too many since it cripples the rate at which they can add stuff. Personally, I’d prefer if they’d kept it the same as GW1 with just a single race, but given us 5x the number of armors, PS content, etc.

I hope it’s chromatic oozes!

you seem focused on the armor bit, but thats not the main argument why it’s unlikely:
1) it’d need a home city with a home zone. And thats why tengu is unlikely, there’s no space for both.
2) Personal Story needs to have a unique twist. Luckily, if lorewise the race doesn’t join the pact until after Zhaitan’s death, they can just have their own unique story until lv80 and then ‘join the pact’-right after the assault on Lion’s Arch (they’d still need a good reason why they weren’t in Orr)
3) dialogue, it would several new voice actors
4)

Adry.7512:

This completely debunks the assumption that there will be no new race added to the future of GW2.

No, it doesn’t. It only addresses one issue (and not thoroughly either). If you look at any of the threads where new races are discussed, you’d see:

• the developers don’t think it’s likely
• the question of armor is only resolved if the new race uses identical models to other races, to that there isn’t any need to do additional design/customization/QA
• identical models would be boring for a lot of players, who like races being visually distinct
• regardless, new armor doesn’t resolve the issue of the personal story
• even ignoring all of the above, ANet still would need to hire another 10 voice actors for everything in the game (2 genders for English, French, German, Spanish, & Mandarin)

tl;dr no, a new race is anything but likely.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Adry.7512:

This completely debunks the assumption that there will be no new race added to the future of GW2.

No, it doesn’t. It only addresses one issue (and not thoroughly either). If you look at any of the threads where new races are discussed, you’d see:

• the developers don’t think it’s likely
• the question of armor is only resolved if the new race uses identical models to other races, to that there isn’t any need to do additional design/customization/QA
• identical models would be boring for a lot of players, who like races being visually distinct
• regardless, new armor doesn’t resolve the issue of the personal story
• even ignoring all of the above, ANet still would need to hire another 10 voice actors for everything in the game (2 genders for English, French, German, Spanish, & Mandarin)

tl;dr no, a new race is anything but likely.

About the voice actors. If new race would be largos (well I’d really like that) they wouldn’t need new voice actors. Since largos wear those breathing devices that transform their voice. So you could just use existing human/norn VA and then use some software to make it sound ‘robotic’.

But if a new race uses the same armor and animations as, say humans, then would the community really be satisfied with their addition? It almost seems “why bother” to me.

Adding a new race adds a minimal amount of eye candy for the players that would need a disproportionate amount of labor on the part of the devs, and money on the part of the company, to make neat and tidy.

Most MMOs that add a new race to their games have a base model that can be tweaked with minimal developmental effort. GW2’s character models are so varied, though, that anything short of a completely new model (or one that hasnt been player accessible), would be unacceptable to the players, so this ease of implementation doesn’t really apply in this respect.

It’s too much, for too little.

Largo’s wings would clash horribly with the ingame backpacks leading to characters with double wings, the Largos wings and the Gemstore wings.

The lore description of the Largos clashes with how the chars need to be well integrated into the society around them.
The largos are an enigmatic aquatic race from the depths of the Unending Ocean and the arctic oceans to the far north. They are silent, determined, and calculating killers. Few have ever seen them and lived to report it. The largos purposefully do not interact with land-dwellers.

As for this feature of their race They are capable of becoming invisible as they hunt their prey or scout their area. That will either be gone or it will so short it will be as useful as all the other racial skills.

No doubt some will say they can remove the wings. If you remove the wings and they never take off the mask so you can’t see the face and the Largos personality is rewritten to fit in with the story then why bother to make this race? They will be essentially long eared humans.

They dont even add armor to the game and prefer to add outfits since its less work. Why would you even think they would bring a new race?

electricwater.1572:

About the voice actors. If new race would be largos (well I’d really like that) they wouldn’t need new voice actors. Since largos wear those breathing devices that transform their voice. So you could just use existing human/norn VA and then use some software to make it sound ‘robotic’.

So in your scenario, we’d have a “new” race that has no personal story, uses the same voices/expressions as humans, the same character models, the same armor. What, then, would make this a “new” race?

I’m sure there are plenty of players who’d be willing to provide voices for the characters merely for credits getting their names in their game. I’d do it.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

This is a summary of what was said in 2013 about new races and new professions

“In 2013 in an interview with Matt Visual, Colin talked about the possibility of adding another race that the player base really wanted. (and we STILL really want them) After that interview, he went back to ANet and they had a discussion on adding another race vs adding another class. They came to the conclusion that adding another race really did not add much to the game while adding another class added a lot to the game. Which is why they stopped looking at adding another race and went full steam into working on the Revenant.

The reasons for adding a new race would be:
1. A new playable race
2. New stories and lore
3. Adding a few racial skills and elites
4. A new city and zone for 1-15 levels that do not affect the core plot with Zhaitan/LS 1 & 2.
5. Appease fans who are asking for it

The reasons against adding a new race:
1. Hiring a new male/female voice actor to be the voice of the main characters (pricy and gotta work their schedules)
2. Building another personal story (takes time)
3. Personalizing to the race, certain interactions with NPCs (racism, curiosity, etc) (often overlooked and takes a lot of time)
4. Adjusting EVERY piece of armor in the entire game(and those yet to come) to fit the new race (This would take months on its own)
5. Slows down production on all future armors, racial interactions, scenes where your playable character has to speak new lines, etc. (for every set, they have to customize 6-18 pieces of armor for 6 different races)
6. Racial skills are generally far weaker than the normal class skills/used rarely (nornbear pre nerf exception)
7. Setting the precedent that with an expansion you get a new race (meaning someday they would be making 6-18 pieces of armor for 7-8 races… ouch on the budget)

Cutting out the portion about new classes but starting out on that tangent: Are we suddenly blind to WHY it is now easier to make new classes and also WHY we won’t be getting anymore (that’s my opinion, but now that there is the superfluous balance between the armor class professions, I just don’t see it’s necessary to ever make another one)?

Professions, traits, weapons and skills were simplified so it’s easier to balance with the variety of mixed combos (changes like no partial trait lines, no dupes trait tier, etc) which made it easier to make a new profession and balance it. It was the limits introduced that helped it along but it’s also why we won’t get more classes. Rather than making new classes, you can simply make more easily balanced and altered elite specialization that can change the base profession as minimally, drastically or cosmetically as you want. Why make an assassin or sniper profession when you can just make an assassin or sniper elite spec for thief? Why make a monk profession when you can just make a monk elite spec for guardian? Why make a dervish profession when you can just make an elite spec for it in revenant? So in doing so, you sort of mitigate the need for more classes while also allowing yourself greater possible additions with much less work! Beyond that, it’s unlikely for new professions because those professions would need elite specs along with other professions so…yeah, we don’t need them.

On the other hand, races. Races are desired but costly and no one seems to look at the reasons WHY it’s costly and consider THAT the issue. Rather than seek to mitigate the addition of races and other customization options, posters just attack those options and races and deem the addition irrelevant while also complaining in the other hand the disdain of outfits and the lack of armor. If you take the route that profession builds took to help add more “classes” (and people may hate on the current trait system or prefer the old. personally I didn’t mind the old way but it had its flaws and the current one is also good and lays out the groundwork for future spec additions) you’d not only make other armor/outfit additions more streamlined but also greatly expand the amount of custom options for everyone.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Largo’s wings would clash horribly with the ingame backpacks leading to characters with double wings, the Largos wings and the Gemstore wings.

The lore description of the Largos clashes with how the chars need to be well integrated into the society around them.
The largos are an enigmatic aquatic race from the depths of the Unending Ocean and the arctic oceans to the far north. They are silent, determined, and calculating killers. Few have ever seen them and lived to report it. The largos purposefully do not interact with land-dwellers.

As for this feature of their race They are capable of becoming invisible as they hunt their prey or scout their area. That will either be gone or it will so short it will be as useful as all the other racial skills.

No doubt some will say they can remove the wings. If you remove the wings and they never take off the mask so you can’t see the face and the Largos personality is rewritten to fit in with the story then why bother to make this race? They will be essentially long eared humans.

There is concept art of largos without wings though.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/c/c3/Female_Largos_without_Wings_concept_art.jpg

granted, this one was probably to show off armor in the back, but they could always say that those wings are artificial constructs designed to make it easier to swim, and while the standard largo comes with black/blue wings, you could change it later to whatever you want.

The lore doesn’t clash because there is no need to integrate the new race into existing vanilla story. It’s an expansion race, so it’s logical it only becomes available in expansion. Perhaps the events in largos homeland changed. They are now more aggressively attacked by DSD minions and have to seek help from other races, even if they do not personally like it.

Stealth could become a racial skill and have no major impact.

They can remove the mask, why not? They can even design different masks that don’t cover all of the face, but just parts of it.

I don’t really see the problem with this race.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

electricwater.1572:

About the voice actors. If new race would be largos (well I’d really like that) they wouldn’t need new voice actors. Since largos wear those breathing devices that transform their voice. So you could just use existing human/norn VA and then use some software to make it sound ‘robotic’.

So in your scenario, we’d have a “new” race that has no personal story, uses the same voices/expressions as humans, the same character models, the same armor. What, then, would make this a “new” race?

Who said there’s no personal story? I’m sure largos would have quite an interesting culture. The only thing we know about them atm is that they are secretive and belong to Tethyos houses. They could surely elaborate on that.

Well character models are a little bit different, but still humanoid (like sylvari and norn) so it’s easy to fit old armor on them. Their textures are quite different. Their skin looks kinda scaly and bluish in color (expand this color scheme to green/grey/purple/white) . They could have different hairstyles, fashions, etc.

What would make them a new race? Their lore, culture, fashion.

Do you necessarily need a giant ten-legged one-eyed creature with a high voice to call it a ‘new race’?

All I’m gonna say is there’s dozens of MMO with high volumes of different races. Most of them feature different body types (take WoW for example). The only company looking for excuses because they don’t want to put up the work to please their customers/fans is ANet. Bottom line is, there is no excuse, there is no “too much work”, there is no “system doesn’t allow it”, none of that exist. At the end of the day, MMO history proves a new race is always possible. Whether or not they include one or more in the future comes down to one single thing. Do they want/care to do it, or not, period! Same goes for mounts, Armors instead of Outfits, Dyeing backpieces/weapons/etc., New Weapons, and every other highly requested addition they want to dismiss/ignore, for no real reason.

Classic example of people using their desires to reshape facts. The two most requested playable races are Tengu followed by Largos – as in, the masses desperately want to play bipedal birds for some reason and I’d much rather roll an aquatic butterfly.

Both of those races have character models distinct enough to require a complete rework of all existing armors.

electricwater.1572:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Largo’s wings would clash horribly with the ingame backpacks leading to characters with double wings, the Largos wings and the Gemstore wings.

The lore description of the Largos clashes with how the chars need to be well integrated into the society around them.
The largos are an enigmatic aquatic race from the depths of the Unending Ocean and the arctic oceans to the far north. They are silent, determined, and calculating killers. Few have ever seen them and lived to report it. The largos purposefully do not interact with land-dwellers.

As for this feature of their race They are capable of becoming invisible as they hunt their prey or scout their area. That will either be gone or it will so short it will be as useful as all the other racial skills.

No doubt some will say they can remove the wings. If you remove the wings and they never take off the mask so you can’t see the face and the Largos personality is rewritten to fit in with the story then why bother to make this race? They will be essentially long eared humans.

There is concept art of largos without wings though.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/c/c3/Female_Largos_without_Wings_concept_art.jpg

granted, this one was probably to show off armor in the back, but they could always say that those wings are artificial constructs designed to make it easier to swim, and while the standard largo comes with black/blue wings, you could change it later to whatever you want.

The lore doesn’t clash because there is no need to integrate the new race into existing vanilla story. It’s an expansion race, so it’s logical it only becomes available in expansion. Perhaps the events in largos homeland changed. They are now more aggressively attacked by DSD minions and have to seek help from other races, even if they do not personally like it.

Stealth could become a racial skill and have no major impact.

They can remove the mask, why not? They can even design different masks that don’t cover all of the face, but just parts of it.

I don’t really see the problem with this race.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

electricwater.1572:

About the voice actors. If new race would be largos (well I’d really like that) they wouldn’t need new voice actors. Since largos wear those breathing devices that transform their voice. So you could just use existing human/norn VA and then use some software to make it sound ‘robotic’.

So in your scenario, we’d have a “new” race that has no personal story, uses the same voices/expressions as humans, the same character models, the same armor. What, then, would make this a “new” race?

Who said there’s no personal story? I’m sure largos would have quite an interesting culture. The only thing we know about them atm is that they are secretive and belong to Tethyos houses. They could surely elaborate on that.

Well character models are a little bit different, but still humanoid (like sylvari and norn) so it’s easy to fit old armor on them. Their textures are quite different. Their skin looks kinda scaly and bluish in color (expand this color scheme to green/grey/purple/white) . They could have different hairstyles, fashions, etc.

What would make them a new race? Their lore, culture, fashion.

Do you necessarily need a giant ten-legged one-eyed creature with a high voice to call it a ‘new race’?

Because the only way to not have to pay a VA to do VA is to use existing lines. Which means no personal story for them. At least not one until the point at which the characters all say the same thing. So LS2 and on. I’d say LS1, but you can’t play that.

New races won’t happen. They’re struggling to create legendary armour skins a year and a half after they were due. They’re obviously understaffed and redoing all known skins would either not happen and you’d have hundreds of crashes bugs or it would be very shoddily done.

Gwaihir.1745:

New races won’t happen. They’re struggling to create legendary armour skins a year and a half after they were due. They’re obviously understaffed and redoing all known skins would either not happen and you’d have hundreds of crashes bugs or it would be very shoddily done.

It’s impossible to say that it won’t happen.

The chances are currently slim that a new race will be added.

electricwater.1572:

About the voice actors. If new race would be largos (well I’d really like that) they wouldn’t need new voice actors. Since largos wear those breathing devices that transform their voice. So you could just use existing human/norn VA and then use some software to make it sound ‘robotic’.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

So in your scenario, we’d have a “new” race that has no personal story, uses the same voices/expressions as humans, the same character models, the same armor. What, then, would make this a “new” race?

electricwater.1572:

Who said there’s no personal story?

You did, when you said, “they wouldn’t need new voice actors.” Unless you think the existing voice actors would take the same amount of pay for doing two sets of characters as they do now.

electricwater.1572:

What would make them a new race? Their lore, culture, fashion.

Those are all things that you said ANet wouldn’t need to do for a new race: fashion was the first thing the OP offered to take off the table (re-use human models). Plus, it’s not as lore & culture can be implemented in the game without new designs, new dialogue, new sets of items, etc.

electricwater.1572:

Do you necessarily need a giant ten-legged one-eyed creature with a high voice to call it a ‘new race’?

Of course not.

Neither do I pretend as if it’s hardly any trouble to add a new race, even with massive compromises to the things that make new races interesting to players.

Adry.7512:

There seems to be this argument about a new race not happening in the near future of GW2. This opinion is backed by the fact that making a new race require a lot of work because of all the different armors that would have to be re-done and future armors for said race. THIS is backed up by a couple of dev comments stating how hard it is to make a different armor type every race, which explains why we dont get an abundance of armor per major content update.

Well I will tell you that all your assumptions are wrong. What Anet has created (and the reason why they struggle in making armor), is a different body type for almost EVERY race available in GW2. We have a small, medium, large, and beastly body-type. This sums up almost every body-type available in your average mmo. Meaning that there is a veryyyyyy high probability that any future race added to the game WILL fit the body-type of a current race. This means that ANY armor created or existing will be able to be applied to said race without any difficulties.

This completely debunks the assumption that there will be no new race added to the future of GW2.

You should hope that GW2 earns enough money first before hoping for a new race. If they don’t turn in enough revenue, things may not end well…….

While I don’t know much about contracts and pricing of voice acting, I have the feeling that if ANet reuses a voice actors voice on a brand new race from a previously recorded dialog, the person whose voice it is is going to want payment for the use of their voice outside of the original contacted use. I highly doubt that ANet can freely and without charge use a voice actor’s words without paying for it. So, while it may be cheaper to reuse old voice dialog I don’t think it will be free and the extra costs for 10 more voice acting per line will still be there.

Pache.9406:

All I’m gonna say is there’s dozens of MMO with high volumes of different races. Most of them feature different body types (take WoW for example). The only company looking for excuses because they don’t want to put up the work to please their customers/fans is ANet. Bottom line is, there is no excuse, there is no “too much work”, there is no “system doesn’t allow it”, none of that exist. At the end of the day, MMO history proves a new race is always possible. Whether or not they include one or more in the future comes down to one single thing. Do they want/care to do it, or not, period! Same goes for mounts, Armors instead of Outfits, Dyeing backpieces/weapons/etc., New Weapons, and every other highly requested addition they want to dismiss/ignore, for no real reason.

Now lets try this from the other side:

All I’m gonna say is there’s dozens of different people who enjoy MMOs with high volumes of different desires from the game. Most of them play many aspects of the game (take PvXers for example). The only players who think companies are making excuses because said players don’t understand operational management, financial constraints, and wanting your employees to have a decent work/life balance are uninformed players. Bottom line is you can only do so much in a 40 hour work week with extra hours coming from your personal time (taking it away from your outside interests, family, and friends), which is further impacted by needing to keep a game (with multiple game modes) up 24/7 while creating new content and dealing with bugs/exploits. At the end of the day, MMO history proves that uniformed gamers don’t care about how realistic something is, if they want it the facts don’t matter. Whether or not a company wants to include something in their game comes down to one simple thing, would allocating resources to something (like adding a new race) provide a greater benefit to the game then anything else the resources could be spent on. Same goes for allotting budget towards employees (supporting in game passion projects, pay raises, job training, benefits, company parties, etc). MMO gamers will always want things that interest them added to the game but unformed gamers dismiss/ignore resource restraints on the games creator for no real reason.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

electricwater.1572:

About the voice actors. If new race would be largos (well I’d really like that) they wouldn’t need new voice actors. Since largos wear those breathing devices that transform their voice. So you could just use existing human/norn VA and then use some software to make it sound ‘robotic’.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

So in your scenario, we’d have a “new” race that has no personal story, uses the same voices/expressions as humans, the same character models, the same armor. What, then, would make this a “new” race?

electricwater.1572:

Who said there’s no personal story?

You did, when you said, “they wouldn’t need new voice actors.” Unless you think the existing voice actors would take the same amount of pay for doing two sets of characters as they do now.

electricwater.1572:

What would make them a new race? Their lore, culture, fashion.

Those are all things that you said ANet wouldn’t need to do for a new race: fashion was the first thing the OP offered to take off the table (re-use human models). Plus, it’s not as lore & culture can be implemented in the game without new designs, new dialogue, new sets of items, etc.

electricwater.1572:

Do you necessarily need a giant ten-legged one-eyed creature with a high voice to call it a ‘new race’?

Of course not.

Neither do I pretend as if it’s hardly any trouble to add a new race, even with massive compromises to the things that make new races interesting to players.

You can also tell some story using text and dialogue windows, no need to vocalise absolutely EVERYTHING. My point was that they wouldn’t need to look for NEW VA, not that they won’t have to pay the existing ones more money (I think more work = more money is obvious). And they can re-use some things that are already in the game.

Once again, no one is stopping anyone from creating more lore. Lore = the environments the new race lives in, what’s important to them, their religion (if any), their history, etc. Ever been to durmand priory, seen the books laying around there? There’s plenty of lore that is being told through plain text-on-screen windows. This is easy to do. No need to create difficulties where there are none.

As for fashion and hairstyles – of course they would need to design new ones, but so what? Few new sets of cultural armor is not that much effort I’d think (one is already in the game, the one they are wearing)

http://orig04.deviantart.net/100c/f/2014/194/e/8/talking_to_a_female_largos_by_weblawless-d7qkdc9.jpg

My point was, they wouldn’t need to jump through fire to adapt all the OLD armor to that body model (cause human-like), not that they shouldn’t create new armor for largos.

And creating new items? How’s new race preventing them from doing it?

Main point is, it’s really up to anet whether they want to add a new race or not. It IS possible, no need to act like it can never happen. A lot of people want a new race. In other MMOs certain races can only be certain classes/professions but that’s not stopping anyone. There’s really no reason to integrate a brand new expansion race into Zhaitan’s/Mordy’s story arcs (and re-record all dialogue for that). If they came later, then it’s only logical they were not a part of the previous events, and can’t access certain content.

People want Tengu, largos or koda. While tengu may seem neat, there would certainly be issues with clipping, and it would be hard to distinguish between male/female. Same with koda (and they all look too much alike to be a major race). It is possible to make largos work though. However only if underwater expansion/content ever becomes a thing, because otherwise it would indeed make no sense that a secretive underwater race suddenly appeared everywhere.

electricwater.1572:

You can also tell some story using text and dialogue windows, no need to vocalise absolutely EVERYTHING. My point was that they wouldn’t need to look for NEW VA, not that they won’t have to pay the existing ones more money (I think more work = more money is obvious). And they can re-use some things that are already in the game.

Once again, no one is stopping anyone from creating more lore. Lore = the environments the new race lives in, what’s important to them, their religion (if any), their history, etc. Ever been to durmand priory, seen the books laying around there? There’s plenty of lore that is being told through plain text-on-screen windows. This is easy to do. No need to create difficulties where there are none.

As for fashion and hairstyles – of course they would need to design new ones, but so what? Few new sets of cultural armor is not that much effort I’d think (one is already in the game, the one they are wearing)

http://orig04.deviantart.net/100c/f/2014/194/e/8/talking_to_a_female_largos_by_weblawless-d7qkdc9.jpg

My point was, they wouldn’t need to jump through fire to adapt all the OLD armor to that body model (cause human-like), not that they shouldn’t create new armor for largos.

And creating new items? How’s new race preventing them from doing it?

Main point is, it’s really up to anet whether they want to add a new race or not. It IS possible, no need to act like it can never happen. A lot of people want a new race. In other MMOs certain races can only be certain classes/professions but that’s not stopping anyone. There’s really no reason to integrate a brand new expansion race into Zhaitan’s/Mordy’s story arcs (and re-record all dialogue for that). If they came later, then it’s only logical they were not a part of the previous events, and can’t access certain content.

People want Tengu, largos or koda. While tengu may seem neat, there would certainly be issues with clipping, and it would be hard to distinguish between male/female. Same with koda (and they all look too much alike to be a major race). It is possible to make largos work though. However only if underwater expansion/content ever becomes a thing, because otherwise it would indeed make no sense that a secretive underwater race suddenly appeared everywhere.

To me, it would be a disservice to players to add a new race, but say that it isn’t voiced, but the other races are. It also strikes me more as a money grab and not truly for the fans. Because they didn’t put the same time, money, and effort into it.

There would still need to be lore added for the personal story. None of the other races have as much lore in them as the player races. We don’t know anything of the day to day lives of the other races. Not enough to say that ANet wouldn’t have to do any extra work to create a new playable race. They may have a loose understanding so they don’t get things incredibly wrong or contradict each other but not enough details to focus on them.

Considering how much effort and time it takes them to make the 3-5 sets of armor when they do make new sets, it would likely be a lot of work to make all of the sets of armor in game compatible with the new race’s model. Especially if they do not have the typical human appearance. And that’s not even going into the 3-6 sets of cultural armor (double the sets if the genders dress differently) that would have to be created.

Then each of the outfits would need a model. And the wedding dress would need two unique models (even the Asura and Charr which typically share models has unique versions for males and females).

And all people are pointing out is how much work is involved with making a new race and stating that that is why the chances aren’t high. No one that’s gone into any kind of detail has said it won’t ever happen.

It may be highly possible (anything is possible), but it is also highly improbable.

I wonder how many players wanted another race (or 4-5) in Guild Wars. It was just as highly possible there, as well.

Good luck.

electricwater.1572:

My point was, they wouldn’t need to jump through fire to adapt all the OLD armor to that body model (cause human-like), not that they shouldn’t create new armor for largos.

My point is that the issue isn’t the armor: there’s a lot of work involved in creating a new race; cutting out the armor will reduce the work, but won’t reduce it by enough to change “almost certain not to happen” into “highly possible”.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

4. Adjusting EVERY piece of armor in the entire game(and those yet to come) to fit the new race (This would take months on its own)

I think they like to greatly exaggerate how long it takes to make armor just as an excuse. In this case for example, he must have meant a race with an entirely different body in some odd shape, like Quaggan or something. Because it takes maybe a few hours to fit an existing armor as long as it loosely fits. Alternatively, they’re using old proprietary tools or are just really slow.

It’s not about having to get a two new voice actors. It’s about what kind of work they’ll actually have to do. They would have to perform through the entire dialogue of the game. That’s not just doing a quick monotone reading it in a girl and male version that is that race. It also means that a huge portion of the game has to written again through the perspective of the new race.

So I flat out do not want a new race to be worked on. I’ll be the one to say it. Being orange lizards for example isn’t content, and the amount of lore for the actual content would be immense. Plus I don’t want more low level zones. We already have a ton and they make sense.

However! If the new race is introduced as lvl 80 I’m all for it! It’ll mesh very well with the game. It’ll still be an immense undertaking for redoing every single voice line in a new light, but I can see it working. If their personal story for Zhaitan is more of a living history mote. But that’s sounds clunky in itself so I just don’t want another race. There’s no need for one, and we’re already slipping on how Norns are supposed to be.

Tengu would be most likely with least retcon, and most awesome obviously.

It’s ANets fault that they designed races in a way that you can’t race change and stuff, same reason they won’t add new races. Have to make a 1-80 story for it.

It is expansion material, but they’re too busy designing annoying vertical maps with unconventional traveling methods, because ‘different’.

Rukia.9860:

Tengu would be most likely with least retcon, and most awesome obviously.

It’s ANets fault that they designed races in a way that you can’t race change and stuff, same reason they won’t add new races. Have to make a 1-80 story for it.

It is expansion material, but they’re too busy designing annoying vertical maps with unconventional traveling methods, because ‘different’.

We have TWO, TWO vertical maps. Why are people so hungover on that?

And they aren’t even complicated: Oh no, i maybe have to do more than press autorun and 1 every now and then.

Jesus Christ, i remember a time when things like a new approach to map design and traveling in a game would have been praised.
But no, it’s inconvenient to you because you have to think for a change or invest some time that you can still spend playing like usual.

On the topic at Hand:
It is unlikely a new race will come.
I would love it though, but i also would love it if the Living Stories wouldn’t add only Lvl 80 content but new zones for people to go into when leveling as well.
The map still has a lot of space and not everything needs to be filled with stuff for the “endgame” but maybe some harder areas inbetween for people to learn something about later mechanics etc. .

electricwater.1572:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Adry.7512:

This completely debunks the assumption that there will be no new race added to the future of GW2.

No, it doesn’t. It only addresses one issue (and not thoroughly either). If you look at any of the threads where new races are discussed, you’d see:

• the developers don’t think it’s likely
• the question of armor is only resolved if the new race uses identical models to other races, to that there isn’t any need to do additional design/customization/QA
• identical models would be boring for a lot of players, who like races being visually distinct
• regardless, new armor doesn’t resolve the issue of the personal story
• even ignoring all of the above, ANet still would need to hire another 10 voice actors for everything in the game (2 genders for English, French, German, Spanish, & Mandarin)

tl;dr no, a new race is anything but likely.

About the voice actors. If new race would be largos (well I’d really like that) they wouldn’t need new voice actors. Since largos wear those breathing devices that transform their voice. So you could just use existing human/norn VA and then use some software to make it sound ‘robotic’.

Right, because anyone who plays a Largos is gonna wear that mask 24/7

LouWolfskin.3492:

Rukia.9860:

Tengu would be most likely with least retcon, and most awesome obviously.

It’s ANets fault that they designed races in a way that you can’t race change and stuff, same reason they won’t add new races. Have to make a 1-80 story for it.

It is expansion material, but they’re too busy designing annoying vertical maps with unconventional traveling methods, because ‘different’.

We have TWO, TWO vertical maps. Why are people so hungover on that?

And they aren’t even complicated: Oh no, i maybe have to do more than press autorun and 1 every now and then.

Jesus Christ, i remember a time when things like a new approach to map design and traveling in a game would have been praised.
But no, it’s inconvenient to you because you have to think for a change or invest some time that you can still spend playing like usual.

applause

they’d also have to make a whole ton of new story content up to lv 30.
complete with dialogue.
a starting zone, and if they wanted to make it a real race they’d need to make a main city too to match divinities reach, Black Citadel, Hoelbrak, Grove and Rata Sum.

its a hell of a lot more work than simply rigging/animating a model and making the armours fit.

Liewec.2896:

they’d also have to make a whole ton of new story content up to lv 30.
complete with dialogue.
a starting zone, and if they wanted to make it a real race they’d need to make a main city too to match divinities reach, Black Citadel, Hoelbrak, Grove and Rata Sum.

its a hell of a lot more work than simply rigging/animating a model and making the armours fit.

Not if the new race starts at 80 right away and follows some living story – kind of development instead of the usual leveling in low zones. They give new players lvl 80 boost nowadays anyway, so what’s the difference?

Also if it comes in expansion, then of course they would have to make new zones/creatures/etc, that’s what expansion is for – new content. People act like making ANY new content is a big problem, but that’s what anet is supposed to be doing? Since we are chasing fire/ice/crystal/underwater dragons nowadays, then it’s obvious the new maps will have to fit the theme. Besides, you pretty much have a dragon for each race. Norn – Jormag, Asura – Primordus, Sylvari -Mordremoth, Charr – Kralk and Humans-Zhaitan. And if you need to beat DSD (who still exists, even though he is heavily ignored/kept in secret), then who would you ask for help to defeat him if not some underwater assassin race?

electricwater.1572:

Liewec.2896:

they’d also have to make a whole ton of new story content up to lv 30.
complete with dialogue.
a starting zone, and if they wanted to make it a real race they’d need to make a main city too to match divinities reach, Black Citadel, Hoelbrak, Grove and Rata Sum.

its a hell of a lot more work than simply rigging/animating a model and making the armours fit.

Not if the new race starts at 80 right away and follows some living story – kind of development instead of the usual leveling in low zones. They give new players lvl 80 boost nowadays anyway, so what’s the difference?

Also if it comes in expansion, then of course they would have to make new zones/creatures/etc, that’s what expansion is for – new content. People act like making ANY new content is a big problem, but that’s what anet is supposed to be doing? Since we are chasing fire/ice/crystal/underwater dragons nowadays, then it’s obvious the new maps will have to fit the theme. Besides, you pretty much have a dragon for each race. Norn – Jormag, Asura – Primordus, Sylvari -Mordremoth, Charr – Kralk and Humans-Zhaitan. And if you need to beat DSD (who still exists, even though he is heavily ignored/kept in secret), then who would you ask for help to defeat him if not some underwater assassin race?

No we wouldent ask a underwater assassin race that hide from us, we would ask living stone (aka dwarfs) help us after we defeat kralk obviously.

Being stone they will sink and we wont have to deal with the pesky underwater combat that anet dont want to do.
It will be normal weapon skill becouse of magic

electricwater.1572:

Liewec.2896:

they’d also have to make a whole ton of new story content up to lv 30.
complete with dialogue.
a starting zone, and if they wanted to make it a real race they’d need to make a main city too to match divinities reach, Black Citadel, Hoelbrak, Grove and Rata Sum.

its a hell of a lot more work than simply rigging/animating a model and making the armours fit.

Not if the new race starts at 80 right away and follows some living story – kind of development instead of the usual leveling in low zones. They give new players lvl 80 boost nowadays anyway, so what’s the difference?

Also if it comes in expansion, then of course they would have to make new zones/creatures/etc, that’s what expansion is for – new content. People act like making ANY new content is a big problem, but that’s what anet is supposed to be doing? Since we are chasing fire/ice/crystal/underwater dragons nowadays, then it’s obvious the new maps will have to fit the theme. Besides, you pretty much have a dragon for each race. Norn – Jormag, Asura – Primordus, Sylvari -Mordremoth, Charr – Kralk and Humans-Zhaitan. And if you need to beat DSD (who still exists, even though he is heavily ignored/kept in secret), then who would you ask for help to defeat him if not some underwater assassin race?

Like the lazy way WoW does (hero classes, which start at lv 65 or 90)

Gerrand.3085:

Classic example of people using their desires to reshape facts. The two most requested playable races are Tengu followed by Largos – as in, the masses desperately want to play bipedal birds for some reason and I’d much rather roll an aquatic butterfly.

Both of those races have character models distinct enough to require a complete rework of all existing armors.

They actually don’t, though. The largos share most of their assets with the other humanoids and the tengu share theirs with the charr (pre-HoT tengu even share the same posture and idle animations).

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Gerrand.3085:

Classic example of people using their desires to reshape facts. The two most requested playable races are Tengu followed by Largos – as in, the masses desperately want to play bipedal birds for some reason and I’d much rather roll an aquatic butterfly.

Both of those races have character models distinct enough to require a complete rework of all existing armors.

They actually don’t, though. The largos share most of their assets with the other humanoids and the tengu share theirs with the charr (pre-HoT tengu even share the same posture and idle animations).

You would think so. However sylvari share the same body structure as humans and yet when they talk about the problems of making armor they say 5 races and 2 sexes, not 4 races and 2 sexes. They also say making one full set of heavy, light and medium is like making 30 armors (5 races x 2 sexes x 3 weights) not 24 armors.

Amaimon.7823:

you seem focused on the armor bit, but thats not the main argument why it’s unlikely:
1) it’d need a home city with a home zone. And thats why tengu is unlikely, there’s no space for both.
2) Personal Story needs to have a unique twist. Luckily, if lorewise the race doesn’t join the pact until after Zhaitan’s death, they can just have their own unique story until lv80 and then ‘join the pact’-right after the assault on Lion’s Arch (they’d still need a good reason why they weren’t in Orr)
3) dialogue, it would several new voice actors
4)

Good points! This is not very difficult and yes it would have to be after whichever dragon we have killed (so far mordy, but it could be after the second Xpac who knows). Therefore their story would be after that Dragon’s death. It could be that they join us in battle for Primordus and therefore we can start the race at lvl50 since they would join us in what would be considered experience warfare. Honestly the possibilities are endless. As for tengu, there is plenty of undiscovered areas that could be used around tengu rejoin.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Gerrand.3085:

Classic example of people using their desires to reshape facts. The two most requested playable races are Tengu followed by Largos – as in, the masses desperately want to play bipedal birds for some reason and I’d much rather roll an aquatic butterfly.

Both of those races have character models distinct enough to require a complete rework of all existing armors.

They actually don’t, though. The largos share most of their assets with the other humanoids and the tengu share theirs with the charr (pre-HoT tengu even share the same posture and idle animations).

You would think so. However sylvari share the same body structure as humans and yet when they talk about the problems of making armor they say 5 races and 2 sexes, not 4 races and 2 sexes. They also say making one full set of heavy, light and medium is like making 30 armors (5 races x 2 sexes x 3 weights) not 24 armors.

Yes 5 races, but the difficulty scales. Very little changes are required between Sylvari and Humans.

Adry.7512:

Amaimon.7823:

you seem focused on the armor bit, but thats not the main argument why it’s unlikely:
1) it’d need a home city with a home zone. And thats why tengu is unlikely, there’s no space for both.
2) Personal Story needs to have a unique twist. Luckily, if lorewise the race doesn’t join the pact until after Zhaitan’s death, they can just have their own unique story until lv80 and then ‘join the pact’-right after the assault on Lion’s Arch (they’d still need a good reason why they weren’t in Orr)
3) dialogue, it would several new voice actors
4)

Good points! This is not very difficult and yes it would have to be after whichever dragon we have killed (so far mordy, but it could be after the second Xpac who knows). Therefore their story would be after that Dragon’s death. It could be that they join us in battle for Primordus and therefore we can start the race at lvl50 since they would join us in what would be considered experience warfare. Honestly the possibilities are endless. As for tengu, there is plenty of undiscovered areas that could be used around tengu rejoin.

You have no idea how much complaining your idea will cause. People will rightfully complain about not being able to play the old personal story with their new characters. Vets will complain that they can’t play the new story with their old characters. The story of GW2 was designed for the five current races, any attempt to shoehorn another race in is doomed for failure from a writing perspective.

Adry.7512:

Honestly the possibilities are endless. As for tengu, there is plenty of undiscovered areas that could be used around tengu rejoin.

It seems that you still forget that it costs developers time to make use of “undiscovered areas” or create a story for whatever new race might be chosen. The possibilities might be “endless” but the resources to design, test, and implement those possibilities are finite.

New Races are unlikely because they are expensive relative to the amount of replayability/appeal, not because the developers lack imagination about how it would fit into the game.

Amaimon.7823:

electricwater.1572:

Liewec.2896:

they’d also have to make a whole ton of new story content up to lv 30.
complete with dialogue.
a starting zone, and if they wanted to make it a real race they’d need to make a main city too to match divinities reach, Black Citadel, Hoelbrak, Grove and Rata Sum.

its a hell of a lot more work than simply rigging/animating a model and making the armours fit.

Not if the new race starts at 80 right away and follows some living story – kind of development instead of the usual leveling in low zones. They give new players lvl 80 boost nowadays anyway, so what’s the difference?

Also if it comes in expansion, then of course they would have to make new zones/creatures/etc, that’s what expansion is for – new content. People act like making ANY new content is a big problem, but that’s what anet is supposed to be doing? Since we are chasing fire/ice/crystal/underwater dragons nowadays, then it’s obvious the new maps will have to fit the theme. Besides, you pretty much have a dragon for each race. Norn – Jormag, Asura – Primordus, Sylvari -Mordremoth, Charr – Kralk and Humans-Zhaitan. And if you need to beat DSD (who still exists, even though he is heavily ignored/kept in secret), then who would you ask for help to defeat him if not some underwater assassin race?

Like the lazy way WoW does (hero classes, which start at lv 65 or 90)

Is this a legit criticism or do you have better ideas on smoothing out such an addition?