Guild Wars 2

DarcShriek.5829:

Adry.7512:

Amaimon.7823:

you seem focused on the armor bit, but thats not the main argument why it’s unlikely:
1) it’d need a home city with a home zone. And thats why tengu is unlikely, there’s no space for both.
2) Personal Story needs to have a unique twist. Luckily, if lorewise the race doesn’t join the pact until after Zhaitan’s death, they can just have their own unique story until lv80 and then ‘join the pact’-right after the assault on Lion’s Arch (they’d still need a good reason why they weren’t in Orr)
3) dialogue, it would several new voice actors
4)

Good points! This is not very difficult and yes it would have to be after whichever dragon we have killed (so far mordy, but it could be after the second Xpac who knows). Therefore their story would be after that Dragon’s death. It could be that they join us in battle for Primordus and therefore we can start the race at lvl50 since they would join us in what would be considered experience warfare. Honestly the possibilities are endless. As for tengu, there is plenty of undiscovered areas that could be used around tengu rejoin.

You have no idea how much complaining your idea will cause. People will rightfully complain about not being able to play the old personal story with their new characters. Vets will complain that they can’t play the new story with their old characters. The story of GW2 was designed for the five current races, any attempt to shoehorn another race in is doomed for failure from a writing perspective.

Sure, we don’t have an idea how much complaining would rise from such an implementation… However, neither do you.

DarcShriek.5829:

Adry.7512:

Amaimon.7823:

you seem focused on the armor bit, but thats not the main argument why it’s unlikely:
1) it’d need a home city with a home zone. And thats why tengu is unlikely, there’s no space for both.
2) Personal Story needs to have a unique twist. Luckily, if lorewise the race doesn’t join the pact until after Zhaitan’s death, they can just have their own unique story until lv80 and then ‘join the pact’-right after the assault on Lion’s Arch (they’d still need a good reason why they weren’t in Orr)
3) dialogue, it would several new voice actors
4)

Good points! This is not very difficult and yes it would have to be after whichever dragon we have killed (so far mordy, but it could be after the second Xpac who knows). Therefore their story would be after that Dragon’s death. It could be that they join us in battle for Primordus and therefore we can start the race at lvl50 since they would join us in what would be considered experience warfare. Honestly the possibilities are endless. As for tengu, there is plenty of undiscovered areas that could be used around tengu rejoin.

You have no idea how much complaining your idea will cause. People will rightfully complain about not being able to play the old personal story with their new characters. Vets will complain that they can’t play the new story with their old characters. The story of GW2 was designed for the five current races, any attempt to shoehorn another race in is doomed for failure from a writing perspective.

The new story would be played by any character within the story line. Thats what living story is used for. Within living story the new race can be unlocked…..it fits perfectly in it. As for the new race not being able to play vanilla storyline….that’s obvious. Go with the storyline….you arent the one writing your vision into the story, you’re the one playing what other people create. Complaining in that aspect is not only pointless but i doubt anyone in Anet would care. Its their storyline and if they add additional manpower by adding a race, then thats it. you play living story, unlock the race, and everything fits in perfectly.

Tengu have roughly the same character model as Charr.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Adry.7512:

Honestly the possibilities are endless. As for tengu, there is plenty of undiscovered areas that could be used around tengu rejoin.

It seems that you still forget that it costs developers time to make use of “undiscovered areas” or create a story for whatever new race might be chosen. The possibilities might be “endless” but the resources to design, test, and implement those possibilities are finite.

New Races are unlikely because they are expensive relative to the amount of replayability/appeal, not because the developers lack imagination about how it would fit into the game.

You have a great point. A new race isnt something that is rushed or done before a deadline. A new race is a project that would probably start a few years before its release. Meaning the project could have started as a side project after Xpac 1….and be completed by the end of Xpac 3 for example.

I would take actual content over how much work it would take for essentially a character skin.

Irrelevant, the only race that matters is asura.

Like I said in the past all they need to do is give us more COMBAT TONICS.

The permanent Kodan tonic we got recently is a good example of how this can work as a replacement for new races. The benefits could be:

1 – We could have MANY races as playable. More so than if they gave us races in the traditional way.

2 – They would not have to worry about voice acting or armours. As they can have a single armour (skin) as part of the tonic. However I would ask that they would add to this skin/armour dye-able (a word lol?) parts.

3 – New content and sales on the Gem Store. Look how many visual things they give us that are easy enough to make – gliders/outfits/backpacks. The same could apply to Combat Tonics.

Adry.7512:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

This is a summary of what was said in 2013 about new races and new professions

“In 2013 in an interview with Matt Visual, Colin talked about the possibility of adding another race that the player base really wanted. (and we STILL really want them) After that interview, he went back to ANet and they had a discussion on adding another race vs adding another class. They came to the conclusion that adding another race really did not add much to the game while adding another class added a lot to the game. Which is why they stopped looking at adding another race and went full steam into working on the Revenant.

The reasons for adding a new race would be:
1. A new playable race
2. New stories and lore
3. Adding a few racial skills and elites
4. A new city and zone for 1-15 levels that do not affect the core plot with Zhaitan/LS 1 & 2.
5. Appease fans who are asking for it

The reasons against adding a new race:
1. Hiring a new male/female voice actor to be the voice of the main characters (pricy and gotta work their schedules)
2. Building another personal story (takes time)
3. Personalizing to the race, certain interactions with NPCs (racism, curiosity, etc) (often overlooked and takes a lot of time)
4. Adjusting EVERY piece of armor in the entire game(and those yet to come) to fit the new race (This would take months on its own)
5. Slows down production on all future armors, racial interactions, scenes where your playable character has to speak new lines, etc. (for every set, they have to customize 6-18 pieces of armor for 6 different races)
6. Racial skills are generally far weaker than the normal class skills/used rarely (nornbear pre nerf exception)
7. Setting the precedent that with an expansion you get a new race (meaning someday they would be making 6-18 pieces of armor for 7-8 races… ouch on the budget)

Pros for making a new class:
1. This directly affects the core of GW2. The gameplay, the fights!
2. Completely new playstyle and experience for players to enjoy playing as/with/against 3. Potentially turning the pve/pvp/wvw meta on its head- goodbye GWEN
4. Addition of Revenant lore
5. Bringing in that missing blend from ritualists/dervish from GWf1
6. A new change to team compositions that is drastically different than it would be if it was just a new race

Cons:
1. Another class to balance skills/traits/specialties
Taking the arguments for one or the other with those facts in mind, I am not surprised that ANet chose to pursue the Revenant instead of Kodan/Tengu. In future expansions they may make the same choice again. In terms of affecting gameplay, adding another class will always have a bigger impact than adding a new race. Because of that we may never see a new playable race. It just forces Anet to dedicate much more resources every time they make something new.

On the flip side, ANet does recognize and even Colin himself would love to play a new race. But can they justify the cost? Perhaps if the community spoke loudly enough."

Link to full after-party notes/commentary – http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2tsiox/pax_afterparty_lessons_learned/

Coilin is nonexistent now. Additionally this tells me absolutely nothing. All it states is why people like new races….the hardwork required for a new race….for ANY mmo….and the obvious…balancing. This clearly states nothing more, oh and that for the first Xpac they decided to focus on a new class instead of a new race…Xpac 1 already came out….meaning that none of this is relevant anymore. Sorry

I kind of took those statements by Collin as more of a cost-benefit analysis and it seems to me the costs of a new race clearly outweigh the benefits.

OP claims that:’What Anet has created (and the reason why they struggle in making armor), is a different body type for almost EVERY race available in GW2. We have a small, medium, large, and beastly body-type. This sums up almost every body-type available in your average mmo. Meaning that there is a veryyyyyy high probability that any future race added to the game WILL fit the body-type of a current race. This means that ANY armor created or existing will be able to be applied to said race without any difficulties."

For the argument to be valid, the models need to align exactly. Not in just one case (he claims ‘almost every body type’). The most commonly requested new playable race is Tengu. It fits none of them. Same goes for Largos, or Quaggan, other races likely to fit the bill for player races.

‘Debunk’ debunked.

Some comments on Colin’s list:

1. Hiring a new male/female voice actor to be the voice of the main characters (pricy and gotta work their schedules)

They could use an existing voice actor and add some effect on it, like they did with the mysterious asura in fractals

2. Building another personal story (takes time)

No need for a personal story if the new race is only available in the expansion it is released in. When we go and fight Jormag, we can also play as level 80 Kodan, when we fight DSD we get Largos, when we fight Primordus we get Tengu, and so on

3. Personalizing to the race, certain interactions with NPCs (racism, curiosity, etc) (often overlooked and takes a lot of time)

Not really hard if most of those interactions are in the new zone anyway.

4. Adjusting EVERY piece of armor in the entire game(and those yet to come) to fit the new race (This would take months on its own)

Kodan: Norn, Largos: Human, Tengu: Charr. Won’t need as much “fitting”

Armor will fit Tengu better than Charr because they don’t have tails. Their body type looks very similar so it should work with minimal (if any) adjustments.

About the Largos wings: remember that according to lore, all Norn can transform into animal forms, yet player characters cannot do that (they need to slot skills) A Largos player could be without wings and use a racial skill to deploy their wings, or a racial armor that has wings on. Or they deploy as a glider when you glide and stay hidden otherwise.

my 2 cents. They CAN add a race

They could use an existing voice actor and add some effect on it, like they did with the mysterious asura in fractals

I’m betting that if they reuse a voice actors voice they still have to pay the actor for the use of his/her voice outside what s/he contracted for, so still pricy.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

They could use an existing voice actor and add some effect on it, like they did with the mysterious asura in fractals

I’m betting that if they reuse a voice actors voice they still have to pay the actor for the use of his/her voice outside what s/he contracted for, so still pricy.

It depends on the contract, but I’d think that anet acquires intellectual rights to the recordings and from then on can use them as they please for a specified amount of time.

electricwater.1572:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

They could use an existing voice actor and add some effect on it, like they did with the mysterious asura in fractals

I’m betting that if they reuse a voice actors voice they still have to pay the actor for the use of his/her voice outside what s/he contracted for, so still pricy.

It depends on the contract, but I’d think that anet acquires intellectual rights to the recordings and from then on can use them as they please for a specified amount of time.

And neither of us knows. Which means that the actors could have contracted for race/sex only and not the free use of their voice whenever ANet wants. If ANet could use the actor’s voice as they choose then maybe they wouldn’t have said they would need to hire more actors.

Edit: if ANet had free use of actor’s voices it seems they could have saved a lot of money by recording once for each language and using technology to change the voices up for each race.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

electricwater.1572:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

They could use an existing voice actor and add some effect on it, like they did with the mysterious asura in fractals

I’m betting that if they reuse a voice actors voice they still have to pay the actor for the use of his/her voice outside what s/he contracted for, so still pricy.

It depends on the contract, but I’d think that anet acquires intellectual rights to the recordings and from then on can use them as they please for a specified amount of time.

And neither of us knows. Which means that the actors could have contracted for race/sex only and not the free use of their voice whenever ANet wants. If ANet could use the actor’s voice as they choose then maybe they wouldn’t have said they would need to hire more actors.

Edit: if ANet had free use of actor’s voices it seems they could have saved a lot of money by recording once for each language and using technology to change the voices up for each race.

Perhaps they hire new ones to make it sound more diverse and ‘alive’.

electricwater.1572:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

electricwater.1572:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

They could use an existing voice actor and add some effect on it, like they did with the mysterious asura in fractals

I’m betting that if they reuse a voice actors voice they still have to pay the actor for the use of his/her voice outside what s/he contracted for, so still pricy.

It depends on the contract, but I’d think that anet acquires intellectual rights to the recordings and from then on can use them as they please for a specified amount of time.

And neither of us knows. Which means that the actors could have contracted for race/sex only and not the free use of their voice whenever ANet wants. If ANet could use the actor’s voice as they choose then maybe they wouldn’t have said they would need to hire more actors.

Edit: if ANet had free use of actor’s voices it seems they could have saved a lot of money by recording once for each language and using technology to change the voices up for each race.

Perhaps they hire new ones to make it sound more diverse and ‘alive’.

And maybe that’s why they won’t resuse old voices even if they can. It’s very likely that if they make a new race they don’t want one that’s cut rate and cheaply done but one unique in its own right in both how it looks and how it sounds and one that comes with a well thought out background and lore.

Adry.7512:

Fenom.9457:

Seems logical, and if it’s true for most outfits/armors, it becomes so easy it’d probably actually provide MORE content than work; maybe, but there are other factors. At least, it’d be highly viable to see a new race each xpac or so…

The issue with a new race in a game such as this is the lore that would be added along with it, which includes a story line which would bring said race to fight alongside us….which would include a major city and other cities/villages.

Don’t we have bear people in game already? Easy enough to make them playable.

Hear me out: dwarves are in the game already, so we make em playable!

Simpliest solution…just make 2 tonics like the Kodan one we have in game already.
1 of Tengu and other for Largos.

I’d be all for a new race, and the only right candidate for a new race would be the Tengu. It’s possible but there’s obviously going to be a bit of sacrifice to bring in a new playable race. IMO how I’d go about making a new race would be:

-Expansion Pack/Paid Unlock.

-Have said new race have it’s own short personal story or quest up until the point of where the expansion took off(To avoid previous LS episodes and having to do all those lines in previous content.) Some might call it a lazy work around but if you think about it it’s going to save a whole lot of resources and and painful backtracking. Unabling the new race in previous LS content works too.

-New content can be played with other races as supplemental assistance to said new race.

-Find a way to make new player race character connect into Dragon’s Watch for future LS episodes.

So really the work that has to be done mainly would be animations, customizability and armors. That’s where the work is. Which looks like a lot a work still and probably is, but it seems a bit doable at least, especially if there were existing assets from launch.

Lucentfir.7430:

I’d be all for a new race, and the only right candidate for a new race would be the Tengu. It’s possible but there’s obviously going to be a bit of sacrifice to bring in a new playable race. IMO how I’d go about making a new race would be:

-Expansion Pack/Paid Unlock.

-Have said new race have it’s own short personal story or quest up until the point of where the expansion took off(To avoid previous LS episodes and having to do all those lines in previous content.) Some might call it a lazy work around but if you think about it it’s going to save a whole lot of resources and and painful backtracking. Unabling the new race in previous LS content works too.

-New content can be played with other races as supplemental assistance to said new race.

-Find a way to make new player race character connect into Dragon’s Watch for future LS episodes.

So really the work that has to be done mainly would be animations, customizability and armors. That’s where the work is. Which looks like a lot a work still and probably is, but it seems a bit doable at least, especially if there were existing assets from launch.

I would still want a new home city for the new race but if you do several things such as start the race at 80 after unlocking it in the expansion, you avoid being to backtrack with the voice acting which eliminates that issue to object with. You also get rid of the need to add a low level zone. Then you only have to worry about current content and text. Going back into old content to alter text for context of the new race would be work but so would going back and fixing typos that still exist; I.e. it won’t be a big deal if mistakes are made nor difficult to fix, just time consuming which can be spread out over a longer period even after the race’s introduction.

The parts, I feel, would be truly difficult would be adjusting the armor for the new race. If we were to get kodan, head and neck differ a lot from Norn and tengu feet, face and tail differ a lot from charr. Adding new voices from current content onward would be difficult as well. The race’s personal story could be executed differently to integrate it with the rest of the content so it may feel differently from the PS of other races which may not be a bad thing. Considering the devs don’t use the old cut scene style but just have characters speak, in open world, this might just be simple than old content.

Beyond that, everything else could easily be mitigated or eliminated as an issue in some way. Issues with armor in general are not issues involving adding new races so solutions for this should be considered independently of these.

Guys guys lets be rational. There will never be a need to go back and adjust/re-do older content, nor storyline. A new race will be introduced within the storyline, which is the only way to introduce a new race period, and it would never make sense to add the new race to any storyline previous to its introduction. Except for lore, of course. The lore of the race’s history, origins, and so on.

How they theoretically would implement it doesn’t matter, though. They already have to go through each race each time they make something new. Whether that’s living world or armor. And say it’s tengu or largos, they both would be clunky beyond belief and need serious work to make them somehow mesh with the backpack skins we have.

The largos are humanoid but the Tengu would need armor that covers their head differently at least. “See only the head,” you say. Only the head for every single piece of armor in the entire game. And it’s not wrapping it differently. New heads for all old skins would need to be made. Then that work is added to the work load of every new skin they have to make. Then a new race ultimately doesn’t add anything for you when you’re just running around so people will want the race they actually wanted.

If you could actually see the new race maybe it would be worth it, but for almost every one all you will see really is the armor covering the body, the tail if there is one and the head if the helm is toggled off.

So let’s say they go to all the work to add in a Tengu. So what will you see? You’ll see the head (if uncovered) and the tail. Same with a Largos with no wings. Human body, head with long ears if uncovered.

Big whoop.

I’d prefer that all the work go to new content rather than have the option of seeing a long eared human (if they opt to uncover the head) or a Tengu tail and maybe a Tengu head on a Charr body plan.

MoarChaos.8320:

How they theoretically would implement it doesn’t matter, though. They already have to go through each race each time they make something new. Whether that’s living world or armor. And say it’s tengu or largos, they both would be clunky beyond belief and need serious work to make them somehow mesh with the backpack skins we have.

The largos are humanoid but the Tengu would need armor that covers their head differently at least. “See only the head,” you say. Only the head for every single piece of armor in the entire game. And it’s not wrapping it differently. New heads for all old skins would need to be made. Then that work is added to the work load of every new skin they have to make. Then a new race ultimately doesn’t add anything for you when you’re just running around so people will want the race they actually wanted.

The same argument could be made for adding professions but they are a 9th anyway. Just because it’s more work doesn’t mean it’s not worth while. Is there game fashion wars 2 of not? If not, let’s stop adding new armor all together and focus on actual content like elite specs and maps.

Leo G.4501:

MoarChaos.8320:

How they theoretically would implement it doesn’t matter, though. They already have to go through each race each time they make something new. Whether that’s living world or armor. And say it’s tengu or largos, they both would be clunky beyond belief and need serious work to make them somehow mesh with the backpack skins we have.

The largos are humanoid but the Tengu would need armor that covers their head differently at least. “See only the head,” you say. Only the head for every single piece of armor in the entire game. And it’s not wrapping it differently. New heads for all old skins would need to be made. Then that work is added to the work load of every new skin they have to make. Then a new race ultimately doesn’t add anything for you when you’re just running around so people will want the race they actually wanted.

The same argument could be made for adding professions but they are a 9th anyway. Just because it’s more work doesn’t mean it’s not worth while. Is there game fashion wars 2 of not? If not, let’s stop adding new armor all together and focus on actual content like elite specs and maps.

But they added a 9th to fill an unused 3rd spot for heavy armor, plus all class lore is about the same. Some have a wisp of a story like engi, but they don’t have to excessively flesh it out. Your character doesn’t say things differently in story instance, because they’re an engineer. So it was more of filling a spot they always knew they wanted to fill.

Leo G.4501:

MoarChaos.8320:

How they theoretically would implement it doesn’t matter, though. They already have to go through each race each time they make something new. Whether that’s living world or armor. And say it’s tengu or largos, they both would be clunky beyond belief and need serious work to make them somehow mesh with the backpack skins we have.

The largos are humanoid but the Tengu would need armor that covers their head differently at least. “See only the head,” you say. Only the head for every single piece of armor in the entire game. And it’s not wrapping it differently. New heads for all old skins would need to be made. Then that work is added to the work load of every new skin they have to make. Then a new race ultimately doesn’t add anything for you when you’re just running around so people will want the race they actually wanted.

The same argument could be made for adding professions but they are a 9th anyway. Just because it’s more work doesn’t mean it’s not worth while. Is there game fashion wars 2 of not? If not, let’s stop adding new armor all together and focus on actual content like elite specs and maps.

Adding a New class doesn’t need:

New Voice actors for Different Genders
New Voice actors for Different Language Localization
New Home City/Starter Zone
New Personal Story
Doesn’t need to adjust all Current Armor/Outfits to fit new class
Doesn’t need class references implemented in all related Conversation

And the list goes on, all a new class needs are Skills, Traits and Skill animations, and arguably 1 armor piece per Elite Spec, 2 Weapons per Elite Spec and the 2 sets of Runes.

I’m curious to know what would be gained by a new race. If it’s new maps, well that is applicable if the story happens to cover them anyway. If it’s lore, well it is hit and miss as to whether races are enhanced by being playable. Norn lost so much from what them interesting in GW1 and they became a much more generic race to fit them in with the Orders and the linear storyline. To some (albeit smaller) extent, the Charr and Asura also suffered.

The Kodan and the Largos are interesting races, but would they be better races for being playable? I suspect not. Seeing Kodan running around with Legendaries and sparkly armour and dresses would be immersion breaking. The same with Largos. Writing and lore for NP-races is often of a higher quality than for playable versions, where the flavour and uniqueness of a race can be explored much more faithfully and without compromise.

This isn’t unique as an issue to GW2 either – I remember when Lotro added Beornings as a race quite recently and suddenly this rare and unqiue race, was running around every part of Middle Earth – a rather significant piece of racial lore in a game which thrives on a well established and beloved World, thrown to the wind for the sake of adding something new.

If we stick a pin in the large and numerous obstacles for adding a new race, what is it a new race is bringing beyond a new skin that can’t be done anyway?

they could make the new race have not a personal story, like they joined the fight post mordremoth. although it might not make much sense since they still have to level up in central tyria, that is frozen in time before Zhaitan even.
but we have to think outside the box. not every race has to be equal. in WoW, not all races have an actual capital. Worgens and Goblins don’t have one, and Trolls didn’t have one either. (Even though I think Gilneas is the coolest city of all and they should give it back to the worgen lol)
but i the complaint is “too much work” think of ways to make it less. using bodytyoes already existing would easy big part of the armor design, indeed.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Leo G.4501:

MoarChaos.8320:

How they theoretically would implement it doesn’t matter, though. They already have to go through each race each time they make something new. Whether that’s living world or armor. And say it’s tengu or largos, they both would be clunky beyond belief and need serious work to make them somehow mesh with the backpack skins we have.

The largos are humanoid but the Tengu would need armor that covers their head differently at least. “See only the head,” you say. Only the head for every single piece of armor in the entire game. And it’s not wrapping it differently. New heads for all old skins would need to be made. Then that work is added to the work load of every new skin they have to make. Then a new race ultimately doesn’t add anything for you when you’re just running around so people will want the race they actually wanted.

The same argument could be made for adding professions but they are a 9th anyway. Just because it’s more work doesn’t mean it’s not worth while. Is there game fashion wars 2 of not? If not, let’s stop adding new armor all together and focus on actual content like elite specs and maps.

Adding a New class doesn’t need:

New Voice actors for Different Genders
New Voice actors for Different Language Localization
New Home City/Starter Zone
New Personal Story
Doesn’t need to adjust all Current Armor/Outfits to fit new class
Doesn’t need class references implemented in all related Conversation

And the list goes on, all a new class needs are Skills, Traits and Skill animations, and arguably 1 armor piece per Elite Spec, 2 Weapons per Elite Spec and the 2 sets of Runes.

Once again, if new race comes in expansion, then this problem will be covered, because they would need to make new maps/story for the expansion anyway. And no need to go back and shoehorn the race into any previous dialogues. They could explain in current story why the race decided to join others NOW.

Randulf.7614:

I’m curious to know what would be gained by a new race. If it’s new maps, well that is applicable if the story happens to cover them anyway. If it’s lore, well it is hit and miss as to whether races are enhanced by being playable. Norn lost so much from what them interesting in GW1 and they became a much more generic race to fit them in with the Orders and the linear storyline. To some (albeit smaller) extent, the Charr and Asura also suffered.

The Kodan and the Largos are interesting races, but would they be better races for being playable? I suspect not. Seeing Kodan running around with Legendaries and sparkly armour and dresses would be immersion breaking. The same with Largos. Writing and lore for NP-races is often of a higher quality than for playable versions, where the flavour and uniqueness of a race can be explored much more faithfully and without compromise.

This isn’t unique as an issue to GW2 either – I remember when Lotro added Beornings as a race quite recently and suddenly this rare and unqiue race, was running around every part of Middle Earth – a rather significant piece of racial lore in a game which thrives on a well established and beloved World, thrown to the wind for the sake of adding something new.

If we stick a pin in the large and numerous obstacles for adding a new race, what is it a new race is bringing beyond a new skin that can’t be done anyway?

It will add extra customization and it’s own flavour. They all possess unique features and styles.
Kodan will not be a new race, because they all look the same. Tall polar bears.

So it’s either Tengu or Largos (or some unknown race). Largos are easier to model armor for. People keep nagging about wings, but nowadays there are plenty of wings everywhere, just replace largos wing model with whatever while on land (and they can keep their own underwater).

And honestly, immersion-breaking? So seeing anime-like charr with hot pink sayian hair, quaggan backpack, twilight, and queen bee + chak egg sac + phospho infusion is not immersion-breaking? Or humans with cat ears? I think we are past that point already. You just have to accept that half of the players look like they just came back from a sick rave party.

electricwater.1572:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Leo G.4501:

MoarChaos.8320:

How they theoretically would implement it doesn’t matter, though. They already have to go through each race each time they make something new. Whether that’s living world or armor. And say it’s tengu or largos, they both would be clunky beyond belief and need serious work to make them somehow mesh with the backpack skins we have.

The largos are humanoid but the Tengu would need armor that covers their head differently at least. “See only the head,” you say. Only the head for every single piece of armor in the entire game. And it’s not wrapping it differently. New heads for all old skins would need to be made. Then that work is added to the work load of every new skin they have to make. Then a new race ultimately doesn’t add anything for you when you’re just running around so people will want the race they actually wanted.

The same argument could be made for adding professions but they are a 9th anyway. Just because it’s more work doesn’t mean it’s not worth while. Is there game fashion wars 2 of not? If not, let’s stop adding new armor all together and focus on actual content like elite specs and maps.

Adding a New class doesn’t need:

New Voice actors for Different Genders
New Voice actors for Different Language Localization
New Home City/Starter Zone
New Personal Story
Doesn’t need to adjust all Current Armor/Outfits to fit new class
Doesn’t need class references implemented in all related Conversation

And the list goes on, all a new class needs are Skills, Traits and Skill animations, and arguably 1 armor piece per Elite Spec, 2 Weapons per Elite Spec and the 2 sets of Runes.

Once again, if new race comes in expansion, then this problem will be covered, because they would need to make new maps/story for the expansion anyway. And no need to go back and shoehorn the race into any previous dialogues. They could explain in current story why the race decided to join others NOW.

So it would be an incomplete Race story wise, the expansion zones are always Endgame level not low level, have never included main City hubs. You just want a race shoe horned into the game which will slow down Development time of everything, Reallocate resources that would be better spent elsewhere and on much more NEEDED content and fixes. And my statement you quoted was to debunk MoatChaos saying it would take the same resources and time for a new class vs new race, which is a far cry from reality as has been proven.

fixes and new races have nothing in common, they can work in both and have different teams for it.
also if we only made the changes that are NEEDED and not the ones that people want, peiple would lose interest realy quick.

And if I create a new character with this new “insta level 80” race, I would miss out on the personal story and all of its rewards. No key for level 10, no crafting materials, dye, salvage kits, etc. Granted, there isn’t a lot of value there short of a major score with a key, but loot is loot and I would take that into consideration when creating a character.

Maybe that’s more important to someone like me with many toons as opposed to a “one and done,” but still a factor.

So far, I haven’t seen any compelling evidence for Anet to go to the trouble of adding a race.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

electricwater.1572:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Leo G.4501:

MoarChaos.8320:

How they theoretically would implement it doesn’t matter, though. They already have to go through each race each time they make something new. Whether that’s living world or armor. And say it’s tengu or largos, they both would be clunky beyond belief and need serious work to make them somehow mesh with the backpack skins we have.

The largos are humanoid but the Tengu would need armor that covers their head differently at least. “See only the head,” you say. Only the head for every single piece of armor in the entire game. And it’s not wrapping it differently. New heads for all old skins would need to be made. Then that work is added to the work load of every new skin they have to make. Then a new race ultimately doesn’t add anything for you when you’re just running around so people will want the race they actually wanted.

The same argument could be made for adding professions but they are a 9th anyway. Just because it’s more work doesn’t mean it’s not worth while. Is there game fashion wars 2 of not? If not, let’s stop adding new armor all together and focus on actual content like elite specs and maps.

Adding a New class doesn’t need:

New Voice actors for Different Genders
New Voice actors for Different Language Localization
New Home City/Starter Zone
New Personal Story
Doesn’t need to adjust all Current Armor/Outfits to fit new class
Doesn’t need class references implemented in all related Conversation

And the list goes on, all a new class needs are Skills, Traits and Skill animations, and arguably 1 armor piece per Elite Spec, 2 Weapons per Elite Spec and the 2 sets of Runes.

Once again, if new race comes in expansion, then this problem will be covered, because they would need to make new maps/story for the expansion anyway. And no need to go back and shoehorn the race into any previous dialogues. They could explain in current story why the race decided to join others NOW.

So it would be an incomplete Race story wise, the expansion zones are always Endgame level not low level, have never included main City hubs. You just want a race shoe horned into the game which will slow down Development time of everything, Reallocate resources that would be better spent elsewhere and on much more NEEDED content and fixes. And my statement you quoted was to debunk MoatChaos saying it would take the same resources and time for a new class vs new race, which is a far cry from reality as has been proven.

…half the people in this thread suggested that the new race would start at lvl 80 right away, what low level zones are you talking about?

Who even says that all races should be absolutely the same? Look at other mmo’s, some races there aren’t allowed to play certain professions (you can only choose from 5 out of 10 existing ones for example), some don’t even have masculine gender (Yun in Blade&Soul), but do people say ‘NO THIS IS ALL WRONG I REFUSE TO PLAY SUCH A GAME!!!’? I really doubt it. They just accept it as it is.

These are all silly ‘requirements’ that someone came up with.

‘New race should be playable in Zhaitan’s story arc and all dialogue should be re-recorded!’ – No it shouldn’t. If they were not part of the pact during that time, then how come they would suddenly be there?

‘New race should have it’s own low-level zones!’ – why can’t they just be 80 and start in high-level zone right away? If it’s an expansion, then most people who buy it will have plenty of lvl 80 characters and tomes of knowledge, so they would level it up in seconds anyway. And new players get a lvl 80-boost too, so I really doubt there is any need in low level zones anyway.

‘New race will cost resources!’ – of course it will, but it will also add extra story to the expansion and extra reasons to do stuff.

DeanBB.4268:

And if I create a new character with this new “insta level 80” race, I would miss out on the personal story and all of its rewards. No key for level 10, no crafting materials, dye, salvage kits, etc. Granted, there isn’t a lot of value there short of a major score with a key, but loot is loot and I would take that into consideration when creating a character.

Maybe that’s more important to someone like me with many toons as opposed to a “one and done,” but still a factor.

So far, I haven’t seen any compelling evidence for Anet to go to the trouble of adding a race.

Because black lion key can only be given at lvl 10? lol. Put it as reward in 3rd instance of the race’s story (already at lvl 80, living story -style) and done. Same with dyes/mats.

I really do hope Tengu will be a playable race for us, since we know so little about them, aswell there is an old BETA picture of a Tengu character in the character selection (at the end of the creation where you have to put a name for your character)
Take a look on the picture below.

What if Tengu were supposed to be a playable race but got scrapped? I do not see the problem regards ’armor render’ for Tengu bodytypes as prob most of them should be the male version.

I’m still hoping for Tengu to be our next playable race.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Leo G.4501:

MoarChaos.8320:

How they theoretically would implement it doesn’t matter, though. They already have to go through each race each time they make something new. Whether that’s living world or armor. And say it’s tengu or largos, they both would be clunky beyond belief and need serious work to make them somehow mesh with the backpack skins we have.

The largos are humanoid but the Tengu would need armor that covers their head differently at least. “See only the head,” you say. Only the head for every single piece of armor in the entire game. And it’s not wrapping it differently. New heads for all old skins would need to be made. Then that work is added to the work load of every new skin they have to make. Then a new race ultimately doesn’t add anything for you when you’re just running around so people will want the race they actually wanted.

The same argument could be made for adding professions but they are a 9th anyway. Just because it’s more work doesn’t mean it’s not worth while. Is there game fashion wars 2 of not? If not, let’s stop adding new armor all together and focus on actual content like elite specs and maps.

Adding a New class doesn’t need:

New Voice actors for Different Genders
New Voice actors for Different Language Localization
New Home City/Starter Zone
New Personal Story
Doesn’t need to adjust all Current Armor/Outfits to fit new class
Doesn’t need class references implemented in all related Conversation

And the list goes on, all a new class needs are Skills, Traits and Skill animations, and arguably 1 armor piece per Elite Spec, 2 Weapons per Elite Spec and the 2 sets of Runes.

Professions and races require different things, but they all require work plus increasing work load going forward. That was my point. If adding a profession was going to going to add more work going forward but they added one anyway then it’s moot to argue that adding a new race would add more work going forward.

But you didn’t answer my question: is this no longer considered “fashion wars 2”? Adding another race is partly an expansion of cosmetic and customization. If the cries for more armor with ultimately head gear and shoulders you’ll put on hide, body armor that will be constantly complained about, leggings that will be obscured by foofy buttcapes and more gaudy glowie back pieces is valid, it seems hypocritical to dismiss adding racial options.

DeanBB.4268:

And if I create a new character with this new “insta level 80” race, I would miss out on the personal story and all of its rewards. No key for level 10, no crafting materials, dye, salvage kits, etc. Granted, there isn’t a lot of value there short of a major score with a key, but loot is loot and I would take that into consideration when creating a character.

Maybe that’s more important to someone like me with many toons as opposed to a “one and done,” but still a factor.

So far, I haven’t seen any compelling evidence for Anet to go to the trouble of adding a race.

This has to be the weakest argument. And you won’t see evidence. Evidence is proof of something that has happened or discuss and few people want to participate in actual discussion.

Regarding rewards and personal story, no one said a new race would lack a PS, it just wouldn’t be the same as what is in the base game because 1. The race could require an unlock only accessible to level 80 players, 2. Could be lvl 80 itself and 3. Have new, different and unique rewards from other content.

Leo G.4501:

The race could require an unlock only accessible to level 80 players

That’s actually a really great idea. This way people can practice their classes up to lvl 80 on other races, and the new race becomes unlockable once you reached 80 on any other race.
This way it won’t confuse any new players.

A lot of folks are still ignoring the costs of adding a new race. It’s not free to simply turn existing NPC models into character models, to write new dialogue and new stories for them, to add the voice actors and translations. Even if you nerf the new race from the start by ignoring the personal story and all prior dialogue, even if you could somehow re-use cultural armor & weapons from other races, it would still require a lot of work to set up the new race and maintain it through future updates.

All of that effort could, instead, be applied to new stories that cover the existing races.

Or put another way, the game could offer an Expansion with new zones and new stories. Or it could offer a new race, with a new starting area or two (level 1 or level 80 — the amount of work wouldn’t be much different) and its personal story.

tl;dr it’s not cheap to add a new race

no one has said it’s cheap. but they have said it’s worth it.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

A lot of folks are still ignoring the costs of adding a new race. It’s not free to simply turn existing NPC models into character models, to write new dialogue and new stories for them, to add the voice actors and translations. Even if you nerf the new race from the start by ignoring the personal story and all prior dialogue, even if you could somehow re-use cultural armor & weapons from other races, it would still require a lot of work to set up the new race and maintain it through future updates.

All of that effort could, instead, be applied to new stories that cover the existing races.

Or put another way, the game could offer an Expansion with new zones and new stories. Or it could offer a new race, with a new starting area or two (level 1 or level 80 — the amount of work wouldn’t be much different) and its personal story.

tl;dr it’s not cheap to add a new race

Can you please enlighten us how much exactly it would cost to create a new race? Cause you seem to act like YOU KNOW.

coso.9173:

no one has said it’s cheap. but they have said it’s worth it.

No they havent said its worth it, but they have said they want it.

to be honest, I personally don’t really care for a new race, I don’t care for any of the general options people have proposed, and unless it’s a race I really really like, I would alway prefer something else.
that being said, when an issue appears so frequently in forums it’s because people care, and devs should listen to that too.

edit: also there’s ways to make new races that are easier, like variations of already existing races, same voice actors, same story (maybe change the first ones) maybe new cultural armor. elonians? variations of sylvari? think outside the box for this

Not only possible, but probable…

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

A lot of folks are still ignoring the costs of adding a new race. It’s not free to simply turn existing NPC models into character models, to write new dialogue and new stories for them, to add the voice actors and translations. Even if you nerf the new race from the start by ignoring the personal story and all prior dialogue, even if you could somehow re-use cultural armor & weapons from other races, it would still require a lot of work to set up the new race and maintain it through future updates.

All of that effort could, instead, be applied to new stories that cover the existing races.

Or put another way, the game could offer an Expansion with new zones and new stories. Or it could offer a new race, with a new starting area or two (level 1 or level 80 — the amount of work wouldn’t be much different) and its personal story.

tl;dr it’s not cheap to add a new race

And to this argument, I say: Then don’t waste time and resources on armor most players won’t like much or the majority of players won’t wear and instead apply all that effort to new stories, maps and elite specs.

Either you want customization options or you don’t. A new race is a customization option, it just also happens to have other perks accompanying it.

electricwater.1572:

Can you please enlighten us how much exactly it would cost to create a new race? Cause you seem to act like YOU KNOW.

Exactly how much? Anyone can make a list of the elements that go into making a new race and estimate its relative costs compared to other things that ANet has added or will add. By comparing the elements, we can get a reasonable idea of whether one concept would cost a similar amount or more or less than something else, even if we don’t know how much those things cost, in terms of time or money.

Remember that this thread opened with the claim that a new race is highly probably, because (according to the OP) there’s a way to kludge armor so it can be “easily” reused for a new race. My point is that even if that’s true (and there’s plenty of reasons to believe that its’ not), there are still lots of other costs to adding a new race. The exact amount isn’t material; the point is it’s not trivial.
——————————————————————————————

Leo G.4501:

Then don’t waste time and resources on armor most players won’t like much or the majority of players won’t wear and instead apply all that effort to new stories, maps and elite specs.

Either you want customization options or you don’t. A new race is a customization option, it just also happens to have other perks accompanying it.

First, I don’t think we can assume that “the majority won’t wear” or that “most players won’t like” any particular thing that ANet does. Plenty of us would love more armor whole some would prefer another race while others prefer more repeatable challenges.

Second, new race is not the same sort of customization option as new armor. New skins don’t require anything other than the skins and an acquisition method. A new race, for it to be meaningful to a lot of people, includes new stories, new voices, and new skins.

But let’s say ANet offered the the option of a new race as long as we accepted that there would be no new story, no voices, no home city, no cultural weapons or armor, i.e. nothing other than a visual customization. Assuming people accept that, the startup costs include getting all the existing skins to work with the new race, combat animations for all the skills used by player characters, and, of course, the actual design options (size, skin tone, hair styles, eyes, etc). The ongoing costs would cover the same elements, making every new skill and skin a little more expensive to produce.

In other words, even the most simplistic scenario for adding a new race requires far more resources than cancelling a few armor sets.

Because I don’t think it’s clear to those I’ve quoted above, let me restate my personal feelings: I’d love to see new races in the game. I’d pay gems and probably real money to have that as an option, separate from any expansion costs. I’d welcome any new race, even though my preference is for something more interesting (to me) than the humanoids proposed here.

My interest in posting here is to help people understand that that it’s unlikely because the costs of a new race are relatively much more expensive than it is for other content, while the benefits are comparable at best (although probably much less rather than similar).

tl;dr a new race is highly unlikely, much as many of us wish it to be otherwise.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

My interest in posting here is to help people understand that that it’s unlikely because the costs of a new race are relatively much more expensive than it is for other content, while the benefits are comparable at best .

As I’ve said before, it is really up to anet to decide whether it’s likely or unlikely. They didn’t add new race in HoT because they had other priorities (finishing up 9th profession for example), now that this is done, they may want to try out other new things. They have to fill up new expansions somehow. New stories, new lore, new zones, new looks <— all that you claim the new race would lack, but it doesn’t have to. It’s killing two birds with one stone – creating environment for the new race and giving people new unexplored content. No one is arguing that adding new races would bring additional costs, but you can combine them with other things you’d need to create for new expansion anyway. Fixing bugs is not an expansion, so ‘redirecting resources to other much needed things’ is not an argument, they have different budgets for different things.

We are just trying to show that yes, there is a high demand for a new race. A lot of people would like that. And the company can decide themselves whether it’s worth it or not to add it, because unlike us, they actually DO know what it costs.

Adry.7512:

Guys guys lets be rational.

Yes, let’s be rational.

I completely agree, 100%, with your title statement. It is indeed highly possible.

However, it is highly unlikely/improbable that such will happen. As you have agreed on the work, I want you to now actually conceive the man hours involved. Now don’t forget QA, management, and lawyers (new contracts and such.) Now add in the cost of those man hours, and do not forget about the other parts of pay. (health insurance and other benefits.)

Now that you have a large monetary value to think through, the next step. How do you propose to ANET now how they can recoup such a cost and make a profit?
The obvious easy idea is to bundle such within an expansion cost. However, that has to be built into the expansion, but not an add in later. So I highly doubt any such effort will have been made for the 2nd expansion. So within the next 1-1.5 years? I think not. Within 3 years, perhaps.

I also believe you poohooed the actual cost of skin creation a bit too much. Consider the fact they release more outfits than skins unless it is part of an expansion any more.

So while they are fully capable, I don’t see the profit margin for the effort a high enough value to convince them.

OneYenShort.3189:

Adry.7512:

Guys guys lets be rational.

However, that has to be built into the expansion, but not an add in later. So I highly doubt any such effort will have been made for the 2nd expansion. So within the next 1-1.5 years? I think not. Within 3 years, perhaps.

I’m personally talking about 3rd expansion (the one that might come after Papaya), because it’d be too late to implement it into 2nd expansion now, they’ve already started working on it quite some time ago. Hopefully it will be DSD expansion.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Second, new race is not the same sort of customization option as new armor. New skins don’t require anything other than the skins and an acquisition method. A new race, for it to be meaningful to a lot of people, includes new stories, new voices, and new skins.

This we know. What we don’t know is how the implementation would ultimately be handled. For instance, you say “includes a new story”, and this is to be expected. But if this addition were to coincide with an expansion to include a new region/new zones, you can roll part of that (the story inclusion + outpost area) that would be part of the new race’s personal story and zones. Of course this would come with sacrifices, i.e. there may be parts only intractable with the new race (think the Sylvari race for HoT but possibly increase more). Yes, there would need to be work to get this accomplished but how much?

You mentioned “new voices” and it is true that you cannot reuse already used voice performances for another use (although it may depend on the fine print of the contract) but it’s hardly a hurtle. If you don’t have money for voice talent, use free talent, otherwise it’s only extra time that’s NOT sacrificed by the artists wholly involved in other resources for graphic assets and story.

Lastly you mentioned “new skins”, and I’d argue that for culture armor/weapons, it’d require less investment than armor for all races simply because it’d only have to fit 1 body/gender. The only alteration I would offer over the norm is to cut the whole “three culture armors per armor weight” and limit it to one per weight which would be perfectly logical is the race began at 80. It’d be even CHEAPER if the race’s cultural armor was also the unique set of the expansion for everyone and the new race’s version would be a rehashed version of itself while the other races got heavily altered versions (basically removing the new race from the equation for that particular set). Thus, you’d only need one skin for every race’s armor weight.

By no means does all of that say it’s easy, cheap or cost effective (that’d be impossible for me to say) but it’s not the horror story many on the forums envision it’d be (like the voice acting…yeah, you know what would lessen that? voice acting less across the board. so long as you sprinkle in just enough to give the character a voice, we can use imagination to implant that in text just fine).

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

But let’s say ANet offered the the option of a new race as long as we accepted that there would be no new story, no voices, no home city, no cultural weapons or armor, i.e. nothing other than a visual customization. Assuming people accept that, the startup costs include getting all the existing skins to work with the new race, combat animations for all the skills used by player characters, and, of course, the actual design options (size, skin tone, hair styles, eyes, etc). The ongoing costs would cover the same elements, making every new skill and skin a little more expensive to produce.

Like I mentioned before, Anet added a 9th profession even though it’d increase the ongoing costs of production (balancing, animations/fixes, elite specs, also specific voice acting, profession equipment) all of which would need updating as more is added to each profession moving forward. No addition but extremely limited ones are going to be one-off changes. And no addition should be written off because of the on going changes.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

In other words, even the most simplistic scenario for adding a new race requires far more resources than cancelling a few armor sets.

I draw parallels to new professions for a reason. That reason is because I don’t believe they will ever release another profession. Thus part of the resources they allocated to creating a new profession could be used for a new race instead. Now I’m not one of those players who complained about HoT but I thought it was quite a good expansion and worked to create a great platform for future additions (elite specs, living story, guild halls, etc) If the same level or greater can be expected from the next expansion, what would be in it that would be a step above what we got in HoT?

All I’d have to say is, if they knowingly understand it’d take 9 or so months to produce a set of armor, their goal should be to streamline that process and/or improve the quality of their outcome. Opening up the avenue for new racial options just may be the catalyst to sink resources into producing such outcomes.