Guild Wars 2

It’s no secret that for a long time now, ANet has been prioritizing the release of new outfits instead of armor for a variety of reasons, some of which they have stated outright. One of these reasons is that it takes a lot more time and effort to develop armor sets than outfits and so while new armor sets have been scantly given over the past few months/years, outfits see far more regular introductions.

But to be honest, I’d prefer to see us going back more towards the introduction of new armor sets on a regular basis as opposed to outfits, even if it means seeing a decline in outfits and even if it means we wait a bit longer between each addition, and so I decided to give a more in-depth insight as to why I believe this to be the case so that ANet and others can discuss or consider it more thoroughly.

1) More Variety

To put it plainly, because armor pieces can be mixed and matched with other armor sets of the same weight, introducing even just one new armor set effectively gives us THOUSANDS of new possible aesthetic combinations. This simply cannot be overstated (and it may even be said that I’m being modest here)…

Comparatively speaking, introducing a new outfit on the other hand, gives us a grand total of ONE new appearance combination, due to the simple fact that outfits come as a complete set and are completely devoid of the option of mixing and matching, or any other form of customization outside of dyeing them different colours.

This effectively makes the worth of one single armor set equivalent to hundreds of new outfits as far as the introduction of variety is concerned. This is part of why I’d rather see new armor, because the value of one armor set in my opinion far outweighs many outfits.

2) Lack of Customization for Outfits

This essentially leads on from the first point of variety. The problem with outfits is that there’s no real way to customize them to make them feel unique. If you buy an outfit, you are doomed to look the same as any number of other players who have bought the same outfit. You cannot tweak your appearance at all, aside from choosing to either hide or show your head piece.

But this leads to another problem. If there’s a particular part of the outfit you do not like, like the gloves or boots for example, there’s no way for you to tweak, hide or replace them. I have seen a few occasions where a guildy of mine has refused to buy an outfit altogether simply because of one small part on it that they disliked, despite liking the rest of it, a problem that would have been easily absolved if they had the option to replace said parts like they can with armor. Likewise, in many cases players might like a particular part of an outfit that they’d love to incorporate into their armor sets, but they cannot because outfits cannot be pulled apart so that their pieces can be used individually.

3) Outfits = Loss of Identity

Now, I will admit this reason is more personal and very debatable, and thus has a bit less weight to it, but I thought I’d just express my thoughts on it in any case.

The final problem I have with outfits is that they don’t adhere to any class theme or armor weight, and so they can effectively overwrite the identity of a class by introducing aesthetic choices that seem wholly bizarre. Seeing a Mesmer wearing enough plate mail to make a modern battle tank jealous, for example, seems a bit odd to me and it makes me question why armor weights were introduced in the first place if they’d ultimately be rendered moot by outfits.

If that’s the case, why not just let all armor weights be transmogrified with pieces from different weights so people can look however they want? (Yes, I know reasons have been given, such as potential clipping issues, but I don’t agree with those reasons because clipping is an issue that exist even within pieces of the same armor weight and, oddly enough, with some outfits as well).

Continued…

Counter Arguments

Now, this topic has often come up before, and people have subsequently offered a variety of points to counter the argument for more armor sets vs outfits. I will address some of those here:

1: Outfits can be used or swapped out at any time without needing to worry about transmutation charges!

This, I find, is a very poor argument in the armor vs outfits debate, because it refers to a quality of life issue that can very easily be amended. All ANet would need to do is remove transmutation charges so that armor can be changed at any time just like outfits.

2: Armor costs more time and resources to make!

Yes, this might be true, but it also gives a lot more in return for the time and resources spent, as mentioned in the point about variety. Aside from that though, this argument doesn’t make much sense to me because the game had a LOT of armor sets at launch. Why was it fine to make so many then, yet now suddenly they are considered so costly that seeing one new set in a few months feels like a miracle? Why didn’t they just make outfits from the get go?

3: We already have lots of armor sets! Outfits still need to catch up to their numbers…

I never understood this particular argument. Why do they need to catch up? Why must we get more of an inferior product, just for the sake of matching the numbers of a superior product? Why can’t we have more balance at the very least when it comes to armor vs outfit releases? As mentioned, one armor set introduces vastly more aesthetic options than even multiple outfits can, so I think it is worthwhile to focus on them more than they have been focused on lately.

Closing notes

Just to finish, I want to reiterate again just how much value I see in the introduction of new armor sets, because it cannot be stressed enough. Creating unique characters or coming up with fun new combinations and seeing what others can come up with is part of the charm of playing an MMO, and much of that charm I feel is lost with outfits.

That being said, I am NOT asking for outfits to be removed, or for them to stop being released altogether. I understand that there are certain types of looks that perhaps can only be achieved with outfits and they allow ANet to circumvent a few odd limitations that armor might impose. I just don’t want them to completely undermine the introduction of new armor sets, because to me, variety and customization is more important.

It’s very well to say make more armor however they said it takes 9 months to make one set for 2 sexes and 5 races. How does your suggestion get them out faster than that.

I doubt that outfits significantly compete with armor in production time. Outfits can probably be made by a couple of people who don’t have the specialized knowledge of how to make armor in this game. In other words, the armor team and the outfit team are different and the armor team needs to do and know more.

Well ifthis leads to more decent armor sets I’m very much for it…

I’ve seen ppl stating the following against:

• Cause Outfits can be used on all 3 the character weight classes developmet time is reduced by 67% (only need to make 1 skin instead of 3)
• Then again, I’ve seen invisibe armor launched before whcih doesn’tt have any development time whatsoever (invisible shoes?)

My negative views on armors:

• Armors from different weight classes tend to be very focussed towards butt skirts, trench coats and spiky things not seeing any deviation from the basic class things….
  *some things might be used on more classes IMHO (helmet skins/ shoulder skins /gloves/boots as most of them overlay on the armors)
• transmutation charges can be costly especially after a big metachange…. Though I can farm them with a low level in cities

My positive views on armor

• you can stand out. I have 20 lvl 80’s in ARMOR, I do own a few outfits, but I only usse ’m on key farm/ low level characters.
• If ANY character gets lvl 80 I get a use plan for it (WvW/PvE/PvP/Instanced?) and a decent armor/ build and I take time to apply skins/make over kits and so on to it… It builds a feeling of attachment to the character, and If I’m not happy with it I’ll redo it.
• I recognize all of my 20 characters instantly, unlike with outfits…..Outfits are generic and lazy, and I find I tend to feel more okay with people wearing armor then outfits. The fact they took the time to look pretty & unique shows me they spend time on their characters and I generally feel this extends to their builds (mostly true)

maybe, if the problem is 2 sexes and 5 races there can be a solution:
1 eliminate gender diversity on the same theme (if i want to wear as a male something specifically designed for female i should be able to and viceversa)
2 make outfits like armor parts instead of a unique piece so we can mix and match outfits instead of armors

Just a flesh wound.3589:

It’s very well to say make more armor however they said it takes 9 months to make one set for 2 sexes and 5 races. How does your suggestion get them out faster than that.

I doubt that outfits significantly compete with armor in production time. Outfits can probably be made by a couple of people who don’t have the specialized knowledge of how to make armor in this game. In other words, the armor team and the outfit team are different and the armor team needs to do and know more.

I wouldn’t personally make too many assumptions about which team makes outfits vs armor, however, I don’t agree with your 9 month development time implications. If it took that much time for a team to make 1 armor set, then how is it that we had so many armor sets at launch? Wouldn’t they have eaten up all the development time and left none for creating the numerous maps, creatures, skills, classes, dungeons and other content? To me it just sounds like an excuse to deliver less quality content than they did before.

We actually used to get armor much more regularly on the gem store before the introduction of outfits, and usually they were released in sets of 3 for each weight. I can assure you there was not a nine month waiting period between each release. In fact, it was much more regular than that (Yes I get that there would be more than one team developing them, but with how regularly they were released before, it does cast a shadow of doubt on the time implications stated).

I actually find the entire argument to be rather suspect, but I am giving ANet the benefit of the doubt here for the sake of being objective. That being said, even if we get one new armor set every 3 months instead of a new outfit every month, I still would prefer that because, as mentioned in my point on variety, that one new armor set would introduce far more options for new looks than even 10 new outfits would.

Let’s say they cancelled all outfits and only created gem shop armor. Based on what ANet has said about the difference in what goes into the two, that would probably mean we get maybe one additional armor set/year instead of 5-6 outfits. Those who don’t like that one set are going to have to wait another year for something that they might not like either.

For better or worse, ANet tied themselves into knots with the infrastructure that is used to produce new skins: no dyes on weapons/backs, massive amounts of animation (that has to work with all the other animations going on), make it work with the game’s physics, plus the usual static design (i.e. how it looks when we are playing dress up, mostly standing still).

There isn’t any sort of simple solution that hasn’t already been considered, that will get us more skins more of us like more faster [sic]. ANet just isn’t going to be able to release enough to satisfy our voracious appetite for new looks for our old toons.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

It’s very well to say make more armor however they said it takes 9 months to make one set for 2 sexes and 5 races. How does your suggestion get them out faster than that.

I doubt that outfits significantly compete with armor in production time. Outfits can probably be made by a couple of people who don’t have the specialized knowledge of how to make armor in this game. In other words, the armor team and the outfit team are different and the armor team needs to do and know more.

I wouldn’t personally make too many assumptions about which team makes outfits vs armor, however, I don’t agree with your 9 month development time implications. If it took that much time for a team to make 1 armor set, then how is it that we had so many armor sets at launch? Wouldn’t they have eaten up all the development time and left none for creating the numerous maps, creatures, skills, classes, dungeons and other content? To me it just sounds like an excuse to deliver less quality content than they did before.

We actually used to get armor much more regularly on the gem store before the introduction of outfits, and usually they were released in sets of 3 for each weight. I can assure you there was not a nine month waiting period between each release. In fact, it was much more regular than that (Yes I get that there would be more than one team developing them, but with how regularly they were released before, it does cast a shadow of doubt on the time implications stated).

I actually find the entire argument to be rather suspect, but I am giving ANet the benefit of the doubt here for the sake of being objective. That being said, even if we get one new armor set every 3 months instead of a new outfit every month, I still would prefer that because, as mentioned in my point on variety, that one new armor set would introduce far more options for new looks than even 10 new outfits would.

About the 9 months. Quote by Mike O’Brien from the AMA Reddit thread.

Armor sets are by far the most expensive reward we can make. A full set includes heavy, medium, light, times five races, times two sexes, so it’s like developing 30 sets. It takes nine months to develop. (That’s for a normal armor set — legendary is much longer.) It’s not something we can do for Living World episodes. Individual pieces are good rewards for Living World episodes; full sets are more something for expansion packs.

As too your other comments about why we had so many at launch, presumably because of the temporary people they hired when the game was being developed whose contracts ended at or shortly after launch.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Let’s say they cancelled all outfits and only created gem shop armor. Based on what ANet has said about the difference in what goes into the two, that would probably mean we get maybe one additional armor set/year instead of 5-6 outfits. Those who don’t like that one set are going to have to wait another year for something that they might not like either.

For better or worse, ANet tied themselves into knots with the infrastructure that is used to produce new skins: no dyes on weapons/backs, massive amounts of animation (that has to work with all the other animations going on), make it work with the game’s physics, plus the usual static design (i.e. how it looks when we are playing dress up, mostly standing still).

There isn’t any sort of simple solution that hasn’t already been considered, that will get us more skins more of us like more faster [sic]. ANet just isn’t going to be able to release enough to satisfy our voracious appetite for new looks for our old toons.

I don’t understand why it would only be one set a year, when before outfits were released, we were getting new armor sets far more regularly than that. There’s simply no evidence to insinuate that there would need to be such a long wait between each new armor set release.

To remind people of what armor sets were released on the gem store before outfits took over, here they are:

- Aetherblade Light
- Aetherblade Medium
- Aetherblade Heavy
- Braham’s Armor
- Flamekissed Light
- Flamekissed Medium
- Flamekissed Heavy
- Incarnate Armor
- Krytan Armor
- Magitech Armor
- Phalanx Armor
- Phoenix Armor
- Primeval Armor
- Profane Armor
- Rampart Armor
- Strider’s Armor
- Trickster’s Armor
- Viper’s Armor
- Zodiac Light
- Zodiac Medium
- Zodiac Heavy

That’s 21 different sets. Even if we were to pretend they were all released over the course of the 4 years GW2 has been out, it’s still an armor set every 2 months. When we then consider that a lot of this was released early in the game’s lifespan, it becomes obvious that the long waiting periods people are implying are and were simply a fallacy.

People are using two different definitions of sets here. The above is using set as one weight and 2 sexes. ANet is using 2 sexes times 3 weights. So you can’t use the gem store example and say 21 sets in X amount of time and compare it to ANet’s explanation of how long to make one set.

The game was released with 7 armor sets that drop as loot, 7 crafted sets, 8 dungeons sets and 5 karma armor sets, 1 WvW armor set, 3 Order armor sets, one for each of the Orders, 1 Heritage set available for GW1 owners, 1 Gem store set available at release (Profane, Krytan, Primeval) and 1 “set” of PVP exclusive skins for a total of 34 armor sets. There are more actual armor set names, but I grouped them up by level to account for different armor weights. So for example I group up Apprentice, Rawhide and Chainmail sets.

If it really took them 9 months to create one full armor set then it would’ve taken a total of 34*9=306 months or ~25 years to make all the armor sets of the original game. We can all agree that the game wasn’t in development for 25 years.

There are also 15 Cultural armor sets, 3 for each race but those are not complete sets as they are available for a single race only.

Edit: I forgot Named armor in “Loot armor” and I forgot the WvW armor set, fixed those above. Updated Math etc

Edit2: Added the old PVP Exclusives: Tribal, Apostle, Stalwart (2 light, 1 medium), re-updated Math and totals

maddoctor.2738:

The game was released with 6 armor sets that drop as loot, 7 crafted sets, 8 dungeons sets and 5 karma armor sets, for a total of 26 armor sets. There are more actual armor set names, but I grouped them up by level to account for different armor weights. So for example I group up Apprentice, Rawhide and Chainmail sets.

If it really took them 9 months to create one full armor set then it would’ve taken a total of 26*9=234 months or ~20 years to make all the armor sets of the original game. We can all agree that the game wasn’t in development for 20 years.

There are also:
15 Cultural armor sets, 3 for each race.
3 Order armor sets, one for each of the Orders
1 Heritage set available for GW1 owners
1 Gem store set available at release (Profane, Krytan, Primeval)

The 9 months is how long it takes them now with the number of people they have at this time. They had more people back then. They had temporary contract workers whose contacts expired and they no longer work for the game. With enough temp people you can make more armor sets in less time.

6 Armor sets were released on the gem store.
Aetherblade: June 25, 2013
Phoenix/Magitech/Braham: July 30, 2013
Trickster/Viper/Phalanx: October 29, 2013
Flamekissed/Flamewalker/Flamewrath: November 26, 2013
Zodiac: February 18, 2014
Incarnate/Rampart/Strider: April 15, 2014

From August 2012 to April 2014 (release to the last gem store armor set) we got 6 new Gem store Armor sets, that’s ~20 months for 6 sets
And June 2013 to April 2014 is less than a year for 6 sets

Just a flesh wound.3589:

People are using two different definitions of sets here. The above is using set as one weight and 2 sexes. ANet is using 2 sexes times 3 weights. So you can’t use the gem store example and say 21 sets in X amount of time and compare it to ANet’s explanation of how long to make one set.

Yes, this is true. But I think it’s also misleading for ANet to compare a single outfit to a set of 3 different armors. Even then, I don’t recall them ever actually giving a definitive timeline for how long it takes to develop one outfit, so making comparisons as a whole might be a fruitless endeavor based purely on speculation.

Still, I prefer to compare things in a 1 to 1 basis rather than 3 to 1.

maddoctor.2738:

6 Armor sets were released on the gem store.
Aetherblade: June 25, 2013
Phoenix/Magitech/Braham: July 30, 2013
Trickster/Viper/Phalanx: October 29, 2013
Flamekissed/Flamewalker/Flamewrath: November 26, 2013
Zodiac: February 18, 2014
Incarnate/Rampart/Strider: April 15, 2014

From August 2012 to April 2014 (release to the last gem store armor set) we got 6 new Gem store Armor sets, that’s ~20 months for 6 sets
And June 2013 to April 2014 is less than a year for 6 sets

To be honest, I don’t agree with the idea of compiling three vastly different armor sets like Viper, Trickster and Phalanx as one armor set. It’s very misleading. I’d see it more as three sets being released at the same time, given their themes and appearances are unique relative to one another.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

maddoctor.2738:

6 Armor sets were released on the gem store.
Aetherblade: June 25, 2013
Phoenix/Magitech/Braham: July 30, 2013
Trickster/Viper/Phalanx: October 29, 2013
Flamekissed/Flamewalker/Flamewrath: November 26, 2013
Zodiac: February 18, 2014
Incarnate/Rampart/Strider: April 15, 2014

From August 2012 to April 2014 (release to the last gem store armor set) we got 6 new Gem store Armor sets, that’s ~20 months for 6 sets
And June 2013 to April 2014 is less than a year for 6 sets

To be honest, I don’t agree with the idea of compiling three vastly different armor sets like Viper, Trickster and Phalanx as one armor set. It’s very misleading. I’d see it more as three sets being released at the same time, given their themes and appearances are unique relative to one another.

And also the fact that they sell each of them seperately.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

To be honest, I don’t agree with the idea of compiling three vastly different armor sets like Viper, Trickster and Phalanx as one armor set. It’s very misleading. I’d see it more as three sets being released at the same time, given their themes and appearances are unique relative to one another.

Grouping them up makes it easier to make comparisons. It takes the devs 9 months to make a new complete set of 3 weights and for all Races, that’s why I group them up for simplicity. They are completely different in looks yes I understand that.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

People are using two different definitions of sets here. The above is using set as one weight and 2 sexes. ANet is using 2 sexes times 3 weights. So you can’t use the gem store example and say 21 sets in X amount of time and compare it to ANet’s explanation of how long to make one set.

Yes, this is true. But I think it’s also misleading for ANet to compare a single outfit to a set of 3 different armors. Even then, I don’t recall them ever actually giving a definitive timeline for how long it takes to develop one outfit, so making comparisons as a whole might be a fruitless endeavor based purely on speculation.

Still, I prefer to compare things in a 1 to 1 basis rather than 3 to 1.

You can prefer that but it makes the discussion turn into irrelevancy if people are using one term that has different meanings to different people.

I don’t understand the 9 months thing either and I also would like more armor. I just don’t think that decreasing the numbers of outfits would make armors arrive more frequently, given that they are undoubtedly made by different teams with different skills. One is a cosmetic, one piece item and the other is a far more complex item. imo, nerfing outfits isn’t going to make a difference if what they need is more people who have the skills to make armor for this game.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

I don’t understand the 9 months thing either and I also would like more armor. I just don’t think that decreasing the numbers of outfits would make armors arrive more frequently, given that they are undoubtedly made by different teams with different skills. One is a cosmetic, one piece item and the other is a far more complex item. imo, nerfing outfits isn’t going to make a difference if what they need is more people who have the skills to make armor for this game.

Perhaps, and as I mentioned in my comment, I’m not asking them to stop making outfits, or to remove them. I really just want more armor.

However, if they are being made by separate teams, then where is the team making the armor? We haven’t had a full armor set release since the expansion’s launch. Perhaps you’d say they’re devoting an entire year just making legendary armor, but to be honest, I find it very hard to believe it would take that long just two make three armor sets, even if they have some fancy transformation. We’ve seen far more complex mechanics introduced elsewhere in less time. X__x

Edit: to add to this comment, legendary armor was actually meant to come out with the expansion and with the introduction of Raids. The fact that we’ve had to wait for a year post expansion launch for these sets and the armor still has not come out is kinda disappointing.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

The 9 months is how long it takes them now with the number of people they have at this time. They had more people back then. They had temporary contract workers whose contacts expired and they no longer work for the game. With enough temp people you can make more armor sets in less time.

Well the game was released with 34 Armor sets: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Why-Armor-is-better-IMO/first#post6401521

In 2013 we got 5 sets:
4 Gem store armor sets
1 Ascended armor set

In 2014 we got 5 (4) sets:
2 Gem store armor sets
2 PVP Exclusive armor sets (Glorious and Glorious Hero’s)
1 PVE exclusive set (Carapace)

You can count Glorious as one set because they are very similar, only the Hero version has some more details.

In 2015 we got Heart of Thorns with 3 sets:
2 Zone specific sets (Bladed/Leystone)
1 Ornate Guild Armor set

There is also Mistward, but that’s only for Heavy weight

In 2016 we got 2 sets:
1 Raid armor: Experimental Armor (Legendary Armor pre-precursor)
1 WvW exclusive armor set (Triumphant)

Sure they got more people creating armors at release. But as we move forward we get less and less armor sets in the game, is the amount of people creating armors going down every year?

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

I don’t understand the 9 months thing either and I also would like more armor. I just don’t think that decreasing the numbers of outfits would make armors arrive more frequently, given that they are undoubtedly made by different teams with different skills. One is a cosmetic, one piece item and the other is a far more complex item. imo, nerfing outfits isn’t going to make a difference if what they need is more people who have the skills to make armor for this game.

Perhaps, and as I mentioned in my comment, I’m not asking them to stop making outfits, or to remove them. I really just want more armor. Not discussed outfits that re not made by the same team

However, if they are being made by separate teams, then where is the team making the armor? We haven’t had a full armor set release since the expansion’s launch. Perhaps you’d say they’re devoting an entire year just making legendary armor, but to be honest, I find it very hard to believe it would take that long just two make three armor sets, even if they have some fancy transformation. We’ve seen far more complex mechanics introduced elsewhere in less time. X__x

/shrug. Half of your OP is a negative assessment of outfits. If you only wanted more armor you could have stuck with discussing armor and how it could be made faster. And yes they are different teams making the two. The armor people make armor and the outfit people make the cosmetic, statless, one piece outfits.

Q: then where is the team making the armor? We haven’t had a full armor set release since the expansion’s launch
A:
1) the upcoming expansion, as said in this quote
Armor sets are by far the most expensive reward we can make. A full set includes heavy, medium, light, times five races, times two sexes, so it’s like developing 30 sets. It takes nine months to develop. (That’s for a normal armor set — legendary is much longer.) It’s not something we can do for Living World episodes. Individual pieces are good rewards for Living World episodes; full sets are more something for expansion packs.
2) the Legendary armors (precursor and Legendary) they are working on, which they say take even more work to make than a regular set, since they have animations.

maddoctor.2738:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

The 9 months is how long it takes them now with the number of people they have at this time. They had more people back then. They had temporary contract workers whose contacts expired and they no longer work for the game. With enough temp people you can make more armor sets in less time.

Well the game was released with 34 Armor sets: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Why-Armor-is-better-IMO/first#post6401521

In 2013 we got 5 sets:
4 Gem store armor sets
1 Ascended armor set

In 2014 we got 5 (4) sets:
2 Gem store armor sets
2 PVP Exclusive armor sets (Glorious and Glorious Hero’s)
1 PVE exclusive set (Carapace)

You can count Glorious as one set because they are very similar, only the Hero version has some more details.

In 2015 we got Heart of Thorns with 3 sets:
2 Zone specific sets (Bladed/Leystone)
1 Ornate Guild Armor set

There is also Mistward, but that’s only for Heavy weight

In 2016 we got 2 sets:
1 Raid armor: Experimental Armor (Legendary Armor pre-precursor)
1 WvW exclusive armor set (Triumphant)

Sure they got more people creating armors at release. But as we move forward we get less and less armor sets in the game, is the amount of people creating armors going down every year?

We don’t know. We do know they are making less money which means that the budget could have been cut (speculation, but less money incoming usually means budget cuts somewhere).

Just a flesh wound.3589:

/shrug. Half of your OP is a negative assessment of outfits. If you only wanted more armor you could have stuck with discussing armor and how it could be made faster. And yes they are different teams making the two. The armor people make armor and the outfit people make the cosmetic, statless, one piece outfits.

Q: then where is the team making the armor? We haven’t had a full armor set release since the expansion’s launch
A:
1) the upcoming expansion, as said in this quote
Armor sets are by far the most expensive reward we can make. A full set includes heavy, medium, light, times five races, times two sexes, so it’s like developing 30 sets. It takes nine months to develop. (That’s for a normal armor set — legendary is much longer.) It’s not something we can do for Living World episodes. Individual pieces are good rewards for Living World episodes; full sets are more something for expansion packs.
2) the Legendary armors (precursor and Legendary) they are working on, which they say take even more work to make than a regular set, since they have animations.

“Half of your OP is a negative assessment of outfits. If you only wanted more armor you could have stuck with discussing armor and how it could be made faster.”

No, half of my OP was a comparison of why I felt armor sets are superior to outfit sets and why I believed there was value in their development. I had to make the comparison to highlight that even though the cost of developing armor might be greater, the rewards are also greater. However, I also made it clear in the title that it was my opinion, and in my closing note that it didn’t mean I wanted them to stop developing outfits.

It is possible to point out the shortcomings of a particular feature without actually “hating” or “flaming” or even being excessively negative about it. But if people want to read more into it by their own volition, then I cannot help that.

“1) the upcoming expansion, as said in this quote”

This is part of why I think it’s important to bring up the value of armor again. If ANet has resigned themselves to only developing new armor sets for expansions, despite having released them far more regularly with normal updates in the past, then it simply highlights their belief that armor sets are either not important to the player base, or lack value for the playerbase and thus are worth overlooking for extended periods of time, possibly even years, between expansion launches. I wanted to highlight that this is not the case for many of us and it might even be said it could be reason enough for some people to stop playing the game altogether.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

/shrug. Half of your OP is a negative assessment of outfits. If you only wanted more armor you could have stuck with discussing armor and how it could be made faster. And yes they are different teams making the two. The armor people make armor and the outfit people make the cosmetic, statless, one piece outfits.

Q: then where is the team making the armor? We haven’t had a full armor set release since the expansion’s launch
A:
1) the upcoming expansion, as said in this quote
Armor sets are by far the most expensive reward we can make. A full set includes heavy, medium, light, times five races, times two sexes, so it’s like developing 30 sets. It takes nine months to develop. (That’s for a normal armor set — legendary is much longer.) It’s not something we can do for Living World episodes. Individual pieces are good rewards for Living World episodes; full sets are more something for expansion packs.
2) the Legendary armors (precursor and Legendary) they are working on, which they say take even more work to make than a regular set, since they have animations.

“Half of your OP is a negative assessment of outfits. If you only wanted more armor you could have stuck with discussing armor and how it could be made faster.”

No, half of my OP was a comparison of why I felt armor sets are superior to outfit sets and why I believed there was value in their development. I had to make the comparison to highlight that even though the cost of developing armor might be greater, the rewards are also greater. However, I also made it clear in the title that it was my opinion, and in my closing note that it didn’t mean I wanted them to stop developing outfits.

It is possible to point out the shortcomings of a particular feature without actually “hating” or “flaming” or even being excessively negative about it. But if people want to read more into it by their own volition, then I cannot help that.

“1) the upcoming expansion, as said in this quote”

This is part of why I think it’s important to bring up the value of armor again. If ANet has resigned themselves to only developing new armor sets for expansions, despite having released them far more regularly with normal updates in the past, then it simply highlights their belief that armor sets are either not important to the player base, or lack value for the playerbase and thus are worth overlooking for extended periods of time, possibly even years, between expansion launches. I wanted to highlight that this is not the case for many of us and it might even be said it could be reason enough for some people to stop playing the game altogether.

As I mentioned in the above post, they are making less money. If they are making less money then the budget for armor may have been cut back to expansion releases since that’s where their income is from, that and the gemstore. If budget made them cut back then adding armor for free between paid expansions is going to be work they are doing without bringing in needed extra income.

agree completely, character customization is one of the most important aspects in an MMO, no excuses are acceptable.

well done to Tenrai for illuminating the nonsense of this “it takes so long to make armours!” argument, before outfits we had plenty of armours released,
since outfits however the number has dropped dramatically, it is clear that they are putting far more effort into monotonous cash-grab outfits than armour sets.

Liewec.2896:

agree completely, character customization is one of the most important aspects in an MMO, no excuses are acceptable.

well done to Tenrai for illuminating the nonsense of this “it takes so long to make armours!” argument, before outfits we had plenty of armours released,
since outfits however the number has dropped dramatically, it is clear that they are putting far more effort into monotonous cash-grab outfits than armour sets.

So the drop in income and any resulting budget cuts/layoff/non replacement of personnel that quit would have nothing to do with it?

Armor is one of the most expensive things they make and a full set takes months to make. Ignoring the possibility that the drop in income would affect something so expensive and time consuming and claiming that instead the production of an item that’s cheap and easy to make is the main thing affecting armor production is not considering all that’s going on but going for the quick and easy “solution” to the problem.

More outfits and less armor. Correlation is not causation.

Everyone knows armor is better. But since they already determined that armor will no longer be sold for gems (only outfits will, and armor will be earned in game), it’s not what makes anet money. Which is something they need now. I’m not saying GW2 is tanking, but I am saying they’re not swimming in money either. Their earnings reports are looking a little on the grim side.

I would prefer if the whole team dedicated to outfits were making armor instead.
Yes, I’m aware we don’t know how much that would really improve the development of armor, but in this case, my politeness don’t bright. I don’t care.

I don’t care if it will mean armor will be produced twice as fast or just one hour less that it is actually being made. It will be a win for me anyway, because I don’t buy outfits. I don’t like them for me,I don’t like what they represent (easy, flat, superficial route, instead of the hard, creative, involved one), and I don’t like seeing them in other people (because it is like seeing a generic crowd were all the models are the same).

In what relates to me (This is not objective, we don’t know the reality of this, and from a bussiness POV is always better to sell cheap crap anyway, so all this whining is moot) outfits don’t have any value. ANet could reasign every single resource invested into them to almost any other thing (Better security, new icon art, more lens flare, a new forum, Finnish localization, a new expresso machine in their offices… whatever), and it will be a win for me.

We all pretty much agree that we want new armor sets (3 weights, 2 genders, 5 races).

They’ve stated that full sets are an “expansion thing.” (Not surprising, nor uncommon)

That pretty much wraps the topic in a nut shell.

~cracks fingers~

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

1) More Variety

To put it plainly, because armor pieces can be mixed and matched with other armor sets of the same weight, introducing even just one new armor set effectively gives us THOUSANDS of new possible aesthetic combinations. This simply cannot be overstated (and it may even be said that I’m being modest here)…

And yet you’re overstating it…

While yes, armor combinations can create many different combinations, don’t hamfist the whole of the breadth of variety on piecemeal armor. A strong contributing factor of variety comes in before you even put a piece of armor on. The races are distinct and have features you can customize decently well which makes up at least 45% of that variety. After that, the option of choosing any race with any profession, coloring your armor, armors/outfits and customizing your build make up the rest. The many THOUSANDS of variants you attribute to armor pieces isn’t as vast as you think if you look at armor alone.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

2) Lack of Customization for Outfits
…

Well you do write off a counter argument for outfits in a similar fashion so I’ll do the same:

If the tech is there, I’m sure eventually the devs could implement a means of better customizing outfits by, at the very least, hiding shoulders/gloves along with the helm. I think it could even be possible to allow armor helms to bleed through since most helms are relatively detached from the rest of the armor, allowing you to wear a helm of your choosing with your outfit. It’d be wishful thinking to expect the same for shoulders/gloves though.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

This essentially leads on from the first point of variety. The problem with outfits is that there’s no real way to customize them to make them feel unique. If you buy an outfit, you are doomed to look the same as any number of other players who have bought the same outfit. You cannot tweak your appearance at all, aside from choosing to either hide or show your head piece.

You can’t wear every outfit at the same time. Introduce enough of them and people will gravitate to the ones they want to wear or a certain character which may or may not cross over to what others are wearing. If you play a game that has a similar outfit style of cosmetics (such as Blade and Soul), yes people will wear the same thing at first but as they progress in the game they will find outfits that they prefer and others don’t. Will you be special? It depends how special you want to be but it’s certainly not impossible.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

3) Outfits = Loss of Identity

This is the whole problem with the armor skin issue. Armor weight is a burden that has cost you your skins and flies in the face of your “feel unique” argument. Why should you care if my mesmer is wearing a battle tank for clothes? Why can’t a Guardian wear modest robes? If my character is utilizing technology, science or magic, then I should dictate how my character dresses, not some arbitrary armor system that has become relatively moot in the current game. But that’s only the personal level of why this is the thorn in your side. It’s difficult enough creating a set of armor for 5 different races and 2 different genders (for 3 of those races) but to also have 3 different armor weights!? It was interesting to start (but you’ll still hear people complain about too many trenchcoats) but it’s obvious that that is FAR too many skins to need to make.

~Post Continued~

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

1: Outfits can be used or swapped out at any time without needing to worry about transmutation charges!

This, I find, is a very poor argument in the armor vs outfits debate, because it refers to a quality of life issue that can very easily be amended. All ANet would need to do is remove transmutation charges so that armor can be changed at any time just like outfits.

Just to rehash the point made earlier, with outfits lacking customization options like hiding gloves/shoulders, the same could be said.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

2: Armor costs more time and resources to make!

Yes, this might be true, but it also gives a lot more in return for the time and resources spent, as mentioned in the point about variety. Aside from that though, this argument doesn’t make much sense to me because the game had a LOT of armor sets at launch. Why was it fine to make so many then, yet now suddenly they are considered so costly that seeing one new set in a few months feels like a miracle? Why didn’t they just make outfits from the get go?

That depends strictly on if players like said armor set skins.

I’m no investor but consider you have a sum of money that you’re looking to invest. Without getting any advice or prior research, do you take a huge chunk of that money and put it in something you think will boom and make you rich? Or do you take modest chunks and put a few of those chunks into something that could float and help you stay in the game?

Putting more resources into something some people will like may not pay off like you think. Not to mention that people likely have stores of gems by now that they’ll just drop on that armor skin that took a sizable amount of time to create? Basically, it’s riskier and more expensive.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

3: We already have lots of armor sets! Outfits still need to catch up to their numbers…

Frankly, I’m just gonna stop you right here. I’m not against armor skins or I’m not an outfit advocate. I’m purely indifferent. Most of the cosmetics this game offers just seem bulky, gaudy, specific or just uninteresting to me. So I’m not trying to put down any camp here. But I can see a problem system when I see one. GW2’s problems stem from the races + armor weights it maintains. When you play enough of these MMOs and see what custom options they offer, you can tell where they cut corners to make their job manageable (NOT to be confused with being lazy). Most MMOs make 2-3 races, for the most part. While they show you 5-6 races, most except 1 or 2 share the same body type. Then they may limit armor customization options via outfits or something similar or worse, just make all the “variety” of armor reskins of other armors.

GW2 is in a dire situation when it comes to creating cosmetics. Their workload is malicious and I don’t see it being entirely maintainable. But to me, I honestly don’t care. I’d prefer Anet introduce a new race or two and limit their armor styles to outfits. I’d have so many Kodan, Tengu, Skritt, Quagan characters, it’d be insane. No other MMO has races like GW2 and I’m just talking about what we got so far.

3 weights, 5 races is enough for me. Didn’t need, never understand, all that mandatory and unexplainable gender dimorphism.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

That’s 21 different sets. Even if we were to pretend they were all released over the course of the 4 years GW2 has been out, it’s still an armor set every 2 months. When we then consider that a lot of this was released early in the game’s lifespan, it becomes obvious that the long waiting periods people are implying are and were simply a fallacy.

There are a lot of implicit assumptions in the statement of one set/two months. I’m going by the evidence we have to date:

• Mike O’Brien is on record stating that it takes 9 months to develop a full-fledged set of armor for 5 races times two genders times three weights.
• At full throttle, they aren’t even producing that many outfits (which they’ve stated are far easier to produce).
• They have been releasing new armor sets since launch.

None of us want it to be true that ANet is unable to produce armor sets more quickly, including ANet.

they could make armor much easily with a few tweaks.
make male armor and female armor the same (minus some small changes, like a barechest armor for males should have a bikini top or something for females.)
all races actually use the same model, It has to be edited to fit the shape of each race, but it’s not like making a whole new set for each new race.
even more, many more would’n’t have a problem with different armor weights sharing the same armor model for new ones.

Leo G.4501:

~Post Continued~

That depends strictly on if players like said armor set skins.

I’m no investor but consider you have a sum of money that you’re looking to invest. Without getting any advice or prior research, do you take a huge chunk of that money and put it in something you think will boom and make you rich? Or do you take modest chunks and put a few of those chunks into something that could float and help you stay in the game?

Putting more resources into something some people will like may not pay off like you think. Not to mention that people likely have stores of gems by now that they’ll just drop on that armor skin that took a sizable amount of time to create? Basically, it’s riskier and more expensive.

if their concern is the skin set selling, they could try putting the concept art on the forums to get feedback or even a poll “would you but this yes/no” and opening those types of feedback for skins might even help the game a lot more than just selling some more skin sets. If they start that up for skin sets they could easily get similar feedback for things like the new legendary armor or even open up to getting concept art from the community (less likely i think because of legal reasons? but It is frequently asked for and release forms or something might fix it i dont really know)

basically if they arent making things the community is asking for because they are worried the community wont like the design…..maybe they should just ask

Additionally, the current state of skins in this game looks like anet dug themselves into a niche they cant get out of that is preventing them from pleasing a chunk of the playerbase. skin sets would not take 9 months to make if the armor weights werent so exclusive. if they had build in a system that allowed skins to be seperate from the gear so that you could wear any type of skin you want, they wouldnt have to worry about skin sets being made for 3 weights * 2 sexes * 5 races. plus a lot of players would be happier they get to mix the weights around or even just wear one whole different weight.

it seems unlikely (despite being fashion wars 2)but anet should seriously consider changing how skins function and opening up a whole new level of player customization and maybe make their lives easier in the long run.

yes it is an assumption that my suggestion is even possible or would help them, please dont bite my head off if i overlooked something.

Frenchtoastersticks.8061:

Leo G.4501:

~Post Continued~

That depends strictly on if players like said armor set skins.

I’m no investor but consider you have a sum of money that you’re looking to invest. Without getting any advice or prior research, do you take a huge chunk of that money and put it in something you think will boom and make you rich? Or do you take modest chunks and put a few of those chunks into something that could float and help you stay in the game?

Putting more resources into something some people will like may not pay off like you think. Not to mention that people likely have stores of gems by now that they’ll just drop on that armor skin that took a sizable amount of time to create? Basically, it’s riskier and more expensive.

if their concern is the skin set selling, they could try putting the concept art on the forums to get feedback or even a poll “would you but this yes/no” and opening those types of feedback for skins might even help the game a lot more than just selling some more skin sets. If they start that up for skin sets they could easily get similar feedback for things like the new legendary armor or even open up to getting concept art from the community (less likely i think because of legal reasons? but It is frequently asked for and release forms or something might fix it i dont really know)

basically if they arent making things the community is asking for because they are worried the community wont like the design…..maybe they should just ask

This is actually a great idea! I believe other games are even going one step further and allowing players to design armors, the studio designers take some of the best candidates and then allow the players to vote which armors get made.

Didn’t GW2 do this before? My memory is muddled but I recall that FFXIV is doing that now and if I’m not mistaken, Blade and Soul did that overseas before bringing it to NA.

Frenchtoastersticks.8061:

Additionally, the current state of skins in this game looks like anet dug themselves into a niche they cant get out of that is preventing them from pleasing a chunk of the playerbase. skin sets would not take 9 months to make if the armor weights werent so exclusive. if they had build in a system that allowed skins to be seperate from the gear so that you could wear any type of skin you want, they wouldnt have to worry about skin sets being made for 3 weights * 2 sexes * 5 races. plus a lot of players would be happier they get to mix the weights around or even just wear one whole different weight.

it seems unlikely (despite being fashion wars 2)but anet should seriously consider changing how skins function and opening up a whole new level of player customization and maybe make their lives easier in the long run.

yes it is an assumption that my suggestion is even possible or would help them, please dont bite my head off if i overlooked something.

Hindsight is 20/20 afterall.

Personally speaking, in my years of playing GW2, I’ve grown dispassionate with the adding of armor because it lacks a lot in multiple respects. We get lots of butt-capes, bulky-looking armor or weird looking widgets that stick out half a meter…some textures are good but others are very plain. And at the end of the day, they lack flavor and personality.

So attempting to mix and match armor pieces, IMO, is a system that is overdone and GW2 isn’t even doing it that well. I’ve seen people with mix and match sets and some look nice but many just don’t look special. Heck, at least a quarter of my characters use the same gear the game released with because nothing new really stands out. Unless you’re a big fan of glowing particle effects, weird jagged widgets poking out in all directions, etc. If they wanted that type of system, why bother linking it to armor at all? Just have runes be your gear and you create a ‘costume’ in the wardrobe menu. If that were the case, you wouldn’t even have to make armor sets, just armor pieces. And you could more easily roll out a robe without having to worry about pants and gloves and head etc. and doing so will already make it piecemeal so it’ll fit with other stuff.

But like I said before, I just don’t care. Anet could scrap armors completely and make the whole game outfits and I’d likely be happier if this made it easier to implement more races.

Leo G.4501:

Personally speaking, in my years of playing GW2, I’ve grown dispassionate with the adding of armor because it lacks a lot in multiple respects. We get lots of butt-capes, bulky-looking armor or weird looking widgets that stick out half a meter…some textures are good but others are very plain. And at the end of the day, they lack flavor and personality.

So attempting to mix and match armor pieces, IMO, is a system that is overdone and GW2 isn’t even doing it that well. I’ve seen people with mix and match sets and some look nice but many just don’t look special.

the butt capes and trench coats and overly bulky armor etc would likely be fixed by the community getting to vote. They could just not vote for options that have those things or players could design ones without that.

As for the mixing and matching a lot of the problems with that are because anet failed to standardize where the line is between pants and shirts well. so they tend to clip or look odd when they dont match up. only particular good way to mix and match is with light armor by having kittenty tops with whatever pants so the cutoffs dont clash. Though what i meant by mix and match is much closer to my deep desire to wear light armor skins instead of heavy. (or those kittenty light top skins with whatever pants anywhere :p). Pretty much it looks like anet designed their skins to have the illusion of lots of customization instead of actual customization. theres tons of skins but you can only choose from 1/3rd ish for a character and then from that third pants from set A clip with shirt from set B so either find the lucky pair or wear a full set and not be able to express your own personal style. outfits have the illusion of customization too. you can color them but youre still going to look like anyone else wearing that (if thats what you like, fine, but many people dont).

apparently im long winded today. sorry o.o

ANet has already commented on the feasibility of players designing armor in this quote

Armor and emotes

Regina B

GimmeSylvari

Hi ! Will there ever be any official armor design contests? Like the guild emblem creation, but for a full armor set? (Snip: question about emotes)

Armor is one of the most expensive things in the game to create. Armor is complicated and needs to be created with many considerations in mind, and these considerations may not be easily apparent or describable to fan armor designers. It isn’t a bad idea to run a contest like this, but it’s many orders more involved than other types of contests, which may be a better use of our limited development and marketing resources. We always have to weigh the pros and cons of any type of contest based on our marketing goals. (Snip)

Frenchtoastersticks.8061:

Pretty much it looks like anet designed their skins to have the illusion of lots of customization instead of actual customization. theres tons of skins but you can only choose from 1/3rd ish for a character and then from that third pants from set A clip with shirt from set B so either find the lucky pair or wear a full set and not be able to express your own personal style. outfits have the illusion of customization too. you can color them but youre still going to look like anyone else wearing that (if thats what you like, fine, but many people dont).

apparently im long winded today. sorry o.o

I don’t think there’s any illusion either way…that or no matter what, you’re going to have to settle for an illusion. Basically, even if you could mix and match all armor pieces and such, it’s still only an illusion of true customization. You won’t be able to do Asymmetric designs or anything that would truly be “customized”. It’s all an illusion.

When you think of things that way, then you have to decide how you want your illusion to work, what your illusion incorporates, what limits your illusion has, etc. While you will look the same as anyone who likes and wears the same outfit as you, if you have so many outfits and so many races that look different in each outfit, do you truly look the same? The answer is, there is less and less chance of that happening the more outfits there are, the more unique looks of each race and even moreso if you count color. Of course it’s an illusion but it’s an illusion with its own perks. Outfits, if designed and modeled well, can cut down on clipping; outfits can have easily defined limits (this outfit is female only, this outfit is for asura only, etc) which can cut down on clipping along with cutting down workloads; doing such means less focus on making a quota (gotta make 1 for every race/gender/weight) and instead focus on flavor and personality. So yeah, outfits are limiting but really, limits are necessary. It’s what you do with those limits that counts. Busting down all limits should never be the goal.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

ANet has already commented on the feasibility of players designing armor in this quote

Armor and emotes

Regina B

GimmeSylvari

Hi ! Will there ever be any official armor design contests? Like the guild emblem creation, but for a full armor set? (Snip: question about emotes)

Armor is one of the most expensive things in the game to create. Armor is complicated and needs to be created with many considerations in mind, and these considerations may not be easily apparent or describable to fan armor designers. It isn’t a bad idea to run a contest like this, but it’s many orders more involved than other types of contests, which may be a better use of our limited development and marketing resources. We always have to weigh the pros and cons of any type of contest based on our marketing goals. (Snip)

thats why i said concept art. Players make concept art, anet then makes it feasible.

Frenchtoastersticks.8061:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

ANet has already commented on the feasibility of players designing armor in this quote

Armor and emotes

Regina B

GimmeSylvari

Hi ! Will there ever be any official armor design contests? Like the guild emblem creation, but for a full armor set? (Snip: question about emotes)

Armor is one of the most expensive things in the game to create. Armor is complicated and needs to be created with many considerations in mind, and these considerations may not be easily apparent or describable to fan armor designers. It isn’t a bad idea to run a contest like this, but it’s many orders more involved than other types of contests, which may be a better use of our limited development and marketing resources. We always have to weigh the pros and cons of any type of contest based on our marketing goals. (Snip)

thats why i said concept art. Players make concept art, anet then makes it feasible.

Concept art isn’t the hard part. I’m sure ANet already has lots of artists working for them who can make all sorts of armor concept art.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Frenchtoastersticks.8061:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

ANet has already commented on the feasibility of players designing armor in this quote

Armor and emotes

Regina B

GimmeSylvari

Hi ! Will there ever be any official armor design contests? Like the guild emblem creation, but for a full armor set? (Snip: question about emotes)

Armor is one of the most expensive things in the game to create. Armor is complicated and needs to be created with many considerations in mind, and these considerations may not be easily apparent or describable to fan armor designers. It isn’t a bad idea to run a contest like this, but it’s many orders more involved than other types of contests, which may be a better use of our limited development and marketing resources. We always have to weigh the pros and cons of any type of contest based on our marketing goals. (Snip)

thats why i said concept art. Players make concept art, anet then makes it feasible.

Concept art isn’t the hard part. I’m sure ANet already has lots of artists working for them who can make all sorts of armor concept art.

I never implied it was the hard part. my suggestion was to avoid anet having to worry “will the players buy this?” because they players could answer a poll saying whether they would or not. and players can contribute ideas they like. The point wasnt to make their job easier the point was so make skins overall more appealing for players by letting them contribute opinions and ideas before anet puts a lot of work into skins people might not buy or like. someone said maybe they make more outfits because skins sets have a higher work load for the risk of few players purchasing it so outfits are less risk , i was addressing that statement.

Frenchtoastersticks.8061:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Frenchtoastersticks.8061:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

ANet has already commented on the feasibility of players designing armor in this quote

Armor and emotes

Regina B

GimmeSylvari

Hi ! Will there ever be any official armor design contests? Like the guild emblem creation, but for a full armor set? (Snip: question about emotes)

Armor is one of the most expensive things in the game to create. Armor is complicated and needs to be created with many considerations in mind, and these considerations may not be easily apparent or describable to fan armor designers. It isn’t a bad idea to run a contest like this, but it’s many orders more involved than other types of contests, which may be a better use of our limited development and marketing resources. We always have to weigh the pros and cons of any type of contest based on our marketing goals. (Snip)

thats why i said concept art. Players make concept art, anet then makes it feasible.

Concept art isn’t the hard part. I’m sure ANet already has lots of artists working for them who can make all sorts of armor concept art.

I never implied it was the hard part. my suggestion was to avoid anet having to worry “will the players buy this?” because they players could answer a poll saying whether they would or not. and players can contribute ideas they like. The point wasnt to make their job easier the point was so make skins overall more appealing for players by letting them contribute opinions and ideas before anet puts a lot of work into skins people might not buy or like. someone said maybe they make more outfits because skins sets have a higher work load for the risk of few players purchasing it so outfits are less risk , i was addressing that statement.

No doubt a nice idea. However each concept art is only what that individual player would like and it doesn’t say anything about whether it would be more appealing than anything an ANet artist could make. Which means it could be designed, accepted, a lot of work done and then still be a bust as few like it.

In addition, the non ANet artists would be creating without knowing or necesarily taking care to stay within the design considerations, (part of the “considerations might not be easily apparent or describable”) meaning that concept art that needs to be heavily reworked to be feasible won’t be any faster or less costly than concept art made by ANet artists who know and respect the boundaries.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Frenchtoastersticks.8061:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Frenchtoastersticks.8061:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

ANet has already commented on the feasibility of players designing armor in this quote

Armor and emotes

Regina B

GimmeSylvari

Hi ! Will there ever be any official armor design contests? Like the guild emblem creation, but for a full armor set? (Snip: question about emotes)

Armor is one of the most expensive things in the game to create. Armor is complicated and needs to be created with many considerations in mind, and these considerations may not be easily apparent or describable to fan armor designers. It isn’t a bad idea to run a contest like this, but it’s many orders more involved than other types of contests, which may be a better use of our limited development and marketing resources. We always have to weigh the pros and cons of any type of contest based on our marketing goals. (Snip)

thats why i said concept art. Players make concept art, anet then makes it feasible.

Concept art isn’t the hard part. I’m sure ANet already has lots of artists working for them who can make all sorts of armor concept art.

I never implied it was the hard part. my suggestion was to avoid anet having to worry “will the players buy this?” because they players could answer a poll saying whether they would or not. and players can contribute ideas they like. The point wasnt to make their job easier the point was so make skins overall more appealing for players by letting them contribute opinions and ideas before anet puts a lot of work into skins people might not buy or like. someone said maybe they make more outfits because skins sets have a higher work load for the risk of few players purchasing it so outfits are less risk , i was addressing that statement.

No doubt a nice idea. However each concept art is only what that individual player would like and it doesn’t say anything about whether it would be more appealing than anything an ANet artist could make. Which means it could be designed, accepted, a lot of work done and then still be a bust as few like it.

In addition, the non ANet artists would be creating without knowing or necesarily taking care to stay within the design considerations, meaning that concept art that needs to be heavily reworked to be feasible won’t be any faster or less costly than concept art made by ANet artists who know and respect the boundaries.

and thats why letting the players judge or at least do a poll of “yes i would buy this” or “no i wouldnt” would be in place for ANET designs (and was my primary point. with player designs being a ‘well maybe if the system is working, then why not’). They could easily put an ad in the gemstore “hey, head to the forums and let us know what you think of this batch of designs”

Anet does the easy part, make concept art, players say if they want it or not. if players say yes, its worth their time to make a whole skin set. if players dont, they scrap it and try again.

Frenchtoastersticks.8061:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Frenchtoastersticks.8061:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Frenchtoastersticks.8061:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

ANet has already commented on the feasibility of players designing armor in this quote

Armor and emotes

Regina B

GimmeSylvari

Hi ! Will there ever be any official armor design contests? Like the guild emblem creation, but for a full armor set? (Snip: question about emotes)

Armor is one of the most expensive things in the game to create. Armor is complicated and needs to be created with many considerations in mind, and these considerations may not be easily apparent or describable to fan armor designers. It isn’t a bad idea to run a contest like this, but it’s many orders more involved than other types of contests, which may be a better use of our limited development and marketing resources. We always have to weigh the pros and cons of any type of contest based on our marketing goals. (Snip)

thats why i said concept art. Players make concept art, anet then makes it feasible.

Concept art isn’t the hard part. I’m sure ANet already has lots of artists working for them who can make all sorts of armor concept art.

I never implied it was the hard part. my suggestion was to avoid anet having to worry “will the players buy this?” because they players could answer a poll saying whether they would or not. and players can contribute ideas they like. The point wasnt to make their job easier the point was so make skins overall more appealing for players by letting them contribute opinions and ideas before anet puts a lot of work into skins people might not buy or like. someone said maybe they make more outfits because skins sets have a higher work load for the risk of few players purchasing it so outfits are less risk , i was addressing that statement.

No doubt a nice idea. However each concept art is only what that individual player would like and it doesn’t say anything about whether it would be more appealing than anything an ANet artist could make. Which means it could be designed, accepted, a lot of work done and then still be a bust as few like it.

In addition, the non ANet artists would be creating without knowing or necesarily taking care to stay within the design considerations, meaning that concept art that needs to be heavily reworked to be feasible won’t be any faster or less costly than concept art made by ANet artists who know and respect the boundaries.

and thats why letting the players judge or at least do a poll of “yes i would buy this” or “no i wouldnt” would be in place for ANET designs (and was my primary point. with player designs being a ‘well maybe if the system is working, then why not’). They could easily put an ad in the gemstore “hey, head to the forums and let us know what you think of this batch of designs”

Anet does the easy part, make concept art, players say if they want it or not. if players say yes, its worth their time to make a whole skin set. if players dont, they scrap it and try again.

I think what he’s trying to say is, regardless of if it looks good or not, those players that are pro-armor/anti-outfit will drop gems on any armor skin put in the game so it doesn’t matter if you poll players or not.

The next question would be, just how much cash can those pro-armor/anti-outfit players generate for Anet?

Frenchtoastersticks.8061:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Frenchtoastersticks.8061:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Frenchtoastersticks.8061:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

ANet has already commented on the feasibility of players designing armor in this quote

Armor and emotes

Regina B

GimmeSylvari

Hi ! Will there ever be any official armor design contests? Like the guild emblem creation, but for a full armor set? (Snip: question about emotes)

Armor is one of the most expensive things in the game to create. Armor is complicated and needs to be created with many considerations in mind, and these considerations may not be easily apparent or describable to fan armor designers. It isn’t a bad idea to run a contest like this, but it’s many orders more involved than other types of contests, which may be a better use of our limited development and marketing resources. We always have to weigh the pros and cons of any type of contest based on our marketing goals. (Snip)

thats why i said concept art. Players make concept art, anet then makes it feasible.

Concept art isn’t the hard part. I’m sure ANet already has lots of artists working for them who can make all sorts of armor concept art.

I never implied it was the hard part. my suggestion was to avoid anet having to worry “will the players buy this?” because they players could answer a poll saying whether they would or not. and players can contribute ideas they like. The point wasnt to make their job easier the point was so make skins overall more appealing for players by letting them contribute opinions and ideas before anet puts a lot of work into skins people might not buy or like. someone said maybe they make more outfits because skins sets have a higher work load for the risk of few players purchasing it so outfits are less risk , i was addressing that statement.

No doubt a nice idea. However each concept art is only what that individual player would like and it doesn’t say anything about whether it would be more appealing than anything an ANet artist could make. Which means it could be designed, accepted, a lot of work done and then still be a bust as few like it.

In addition, the non ANet artists would be creating without knowing or necesarily taking care to stay within the design considerations, meaning that concept art that needs to be heavily reworked to be feasible won’t be any faster or less costly than concept art made by ANet artists who know and respect the boundaries.

and thats why letting the players judge or at least do a poll of “yes i would buy this” or “no i wouldnt” would be in place for ANET designs (and was my primary point. with player designs being a ‘well maybe if the system is working, then why not’). They could easily put an ad in the gemstore “hey, head to the forums and let us know what you think of this batch of designs”

Anet does the easy part, make concept art, players say if they want it or not. if players say yes, its worth their time to make a whole skin set. if players dont, they scrap it and try again.

Again, a nice idea. However one problem with polls where the user “opts in” to vote is that it’s a self selecting group chosen from those who care enough to vote, one way or another. In addition, dislikes are typically more likely to voice their opinion as they are unhappy. This means that a poll might be accurate, and might not. (Reference here to the recent US presidential polls that showed one candidate winning the electoral vote by a fairly substantial margin but the actual election had the other candidate win).

Another comment: for years players have been stating their likes and dislikes on armor design on the forums. They’ve commented on “butt capes,” trenchcoats, male/female skimpiness, had threads where they submitted pictures of armor they like and their own artistic creations.
And yet, armor still has butt capes, trenchcoats, same level of male/female skimpiness. If they’ve ignored all the years of criticisms and alternate examples, I don’t see them changing their armor design by using polls or asking players to submit concept art.

My comment about polls for the concept art was ONLY to address the suggestion that anet might choose to make outfits because of being unsure on players liking them or not enough to be worth making a full skin set. obviously its not perfect, but i dont think it would be that hard to just make a poll and see if at least X number of people say they will buy it if its made and decide if thats worth it. the negatives dont actually matter for the decision other than to help show how many people looked at the outfit. is it perfect? no obviously not. does it hurt anet to give it a try? also no.

its pretty simple to test the effectiveness

1. make concept art
2. make a poll on forums with a mail like with pvp or an ad in the gem store saying to go look at the poll
3. people who care about skins go look and make an opinion if they feel like it
4. anet assesses poll results. did a substantial amount of people say they would buy it? if 50% of the people who said they would actually did (may as well use a cautious amount) would it be worth it to make a full skin set or are we better off with an outfit or even making nothing at all.
5. make skin set if enough people have contributed a vote for it to look worth it. or test the process with an outfit first.
6. compare profits to what the poll projected.

could test the method with really any kind of skin they might make. maybe a glider or just a hat first just to see how many people are willing to take the time to bother with the poll and how it compares to actual sales.

doesnt really matter what the sample size is out of voters as long as the raw number of people who said yes is more than enough to be worth making. if barely anyone votes? then well they tried something at least.

I have stopped buying outfits since Anet just seems to want to take the easy route and unload tons of outfits and other cs skins onto us even if it would be very logical to have it as a reward (White Mantle stuff from raids for example) plus that I have very little faith they will be putting out many armour skins in any expansions.

They seem to be turning into a game like Forsaken World where their cs is just constantly getting new stuff and that game is like a ghost town now.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

That’s 21 different sets. Even if we were to pretend they were all released over the course of the 4 years GW2 has been out, it’s still an armor set every 2 months. When we then consider that a lot of this was released early in the game’s lifespan, it becomes obvious that the long waiting periods people are implying are and were simply a fallacy.

There are a lot of implicit assumptions in the statement of one set/two months. I’m going by the evidence we have to date:

• Mike O’Brien is on record stating that it takes 9 months to develop a full-fledged set of armor for 5 races times two genders times three weights.
• At full throttle, they aren’t even producing that many outfits (which they’ve stated are far easier to produce).
• They have been releasing new armor sets since launch.

None of us want it to be true that ANet is unable to produce armor sets more quickly, including ANet.

I think it’s just as much of an assumption for people to think they understand the intricacies regarding the production of armor vs outfits. We’re given a very vague statement with no real information and details regarding how long it takes to armor, and everyone takes it at face value without considering that there’s more to it than meets the eye.

Questions that arise are “How many people does it take to make an armor set over those 9 months?”, “Is that full development time from conception to implementation?”, “Is the team working on it full time or just on and off?”, and so on.

Another question would be “How long does it take to develop outfits, comparatively speaking?” Seeing as how we have never actually been given an exact time frame in that regard, making astute comparisons as if we have been adequately enlightened seems far more strange to me than my simply looking at past evidence and taking a guess at it. Certainly, a guess is all anyone can make with how little information we’re actually given on the matter. It would be nice if the devs gave us more info and less vague statements, then perhaps I’d be more satisfied with the answer.

To be honest, I just have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that it can take a team of people 9 months to make 3 armor sets. I get that maybe the team has diminished greatly since launch, but to me that’s a bad sign for the development of the game as a whole. If it was performing well, then surely they’d have the budget and team necessary to ensure content creation continues to flow smoothly? And if they aren’t performing well, is that not a sign of bad design decisions, which subsequently lead to a smaller player base, less players spending and thus less income needed to fund development? Of course it might be prudent to assume either way.

GW2 has immense variety, especially for a game that is “only” 4 years old, I can’t see how this is even an issue at all.