Guild Wars 2

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Vayne.8563:

Okay let’s say you’re right. Anet makes an annoucement. Some people read it, some people don’t.

A bunch of guys who love to grief people tell other people about it, just to see them gt banned. You can’t say that wouldn’t happen, because it can. There are always people out there ready to do stuff to kitten other people off.

I can see where you’re coming from (and it’s not the first time you’ve made the argument), but I don’t see it being implemented. The potential for griefing alone at that point is pretty big.

You’re absolutely right!

If not all players are informed, then it opens the door for abuse. However, if you’ve seen my argument before, you also know that my solution was simple.

Player logs in, a screen pops up with the announcement (justified annoyance factor in this case as consequences are high), and the player must press, “OK” to continue.

If players choose to skip the text and press “OK” then that is their choice, however it guarantees all players will see the official message. No forum posts, no Twitter, no Facebook…right on the main login screen overtop your character. You can’t do anything else without closing the dialogue box.

Okay…I see what you’re saying. It’s my belief the biggest percentage of players will skip that screen anyway, but at least if they get banned then, it will be because they skipped a screen.

Then if they exploit, well, that’s fine.

Doesn’t really change what I said in the other thread though. An exploit can exist for X amount of time before the company even learns about it. So this system will encourage anyone who learns about it before Anet to hurry up and exploit the exploit as fast as they can, until the message comes up, because they know it’s a free pass.

How do you deal with the fact that the company might be too late to stop the exploit, and those who do exploit will remain unpunished?

That is the only way noobs can win.

Vayne.8563:

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Vayne.8563:

Okay let’s say you’re right. Anet makes an annoucement. Some people read it, some people don’t.

A bunch of guys who love to grief people tell other people about it, just to see them gt banned. You can’t say that wouldn’t happen, because it can. There are always people out there ready to do stuff to kitten other people off.

I can see where you’re coming from (and it’s not the first time you’ve made the argument), but I don’t see it being implemented. The potential for griefing alone at that point is pretty big.

You’re absolutely right!

If not all players are informed, then it opens the door for abuse. However, if you’ve seen my argument before, you also know that my solution was simple.

Player logs in, a screen pops up with the announcement (justified annoyance factor in this case as consequences are high), and the player must press, “OK” to continue.

If players choose to skip the text and press “OK” then that is their choice, however it guarantees all players will see the official message. No forum posts, no Twitter, no Facebook…right on the main login screen overtop your character. You can’t do anything else without closing the dialogue box.

Okay…I see what you’re saying. It’s my belief the biggest percentage of players will skip that screen anyway, but at least if they get banned then, it will be because they skipped a screen.

Then if they exploit, well, that’s fine.

Doesn’t really change what I said in the other thread though. An exploit can exist for X amount of time before the company even learns about it. So this system will encourage anyone who learns about it before Anet to hurry up and exploit the exploit as fast as they can, until the message comes up, because they know it’s a free pass.

How do you deal with the fact that the company might be too late to stop the exploit, and those who do exploit will remain unpunished?

Well, as I mentioned before. I don’t think it should change the current system.

Exploits are still covered under that Terms and Conditions. ANet would still have to do what they currently do to determine whether a players actions are punishable.

The difference is that because ANet can’t always hot fix exploits (they probably know about them long before they act), they can inform the community ASAP, thus cutting off any further people being, “caught in the net”

I’m not saying I have all the answers, but I honestly feel that the system could be tweaked to give the largest number of players the opportunity to avoid unnecessary bans.

Because they haven’t evolved, as humans, far enough to have morals without the threat of punishment.

Once the notion of whether an action is right or wrong has been established; most people will choose to stop. Others will simply weigh whether the punishment is worth the benefits gained or whether the chances of getting caught are high or low.

EDIT: I do advocate Anet making an announcement that an action is an exploit and will be punished for those unsure of the ‘right/wrong’

Anet is generally sensible about these things. Do something ten times and realize it’s a bug/exploit, no problem. Do it a hundred times, get banned, appeal and say “hey, I stopped as soon as I realized it’s an exploit.” They say, “ok you can play the game.” Do it a thousand times and you can’t come back.

It’s their sandbox and they make the rules. Whether you like the rules or not is irrelevant, you don’t get to tell them what the rules are. If you don’t like it, single player games have cheat codes posted, you can play Skyrim or something and have unlimited gold, all the best equipment, etc. And no one will ban you.

tolunart.2095:

Anet is generally sensible about these things. Do something ten times and realize it’s a bug/exploit, no problem. Do it a hundred times, get banned, appeal and say “hey, I stopped as soon as I realized it’s an exploit.” They say, “ok you can play the game.” Do it a thousand times and you can’t come back.

It’s their sandbox and they make the rules. Whether you like the rules or not is irrelevant, you don’t get to tell them what the rules are. If you don’t like it, single player games have cheat codes posted, you can play Skyrim or something and have unlimited gold, all the best equipment, etc. And no one will ban you.

Problem is, no one knows what ANets cutoffs are. I may do something ten times and never realize it was an exploit (where could I ever find out unless banned?)

Second, I like the rules. I want exploiters to be banned. I don’t want anyone to take advantage of the game and potentially ruin it for others.

Just let me know what the rules are and I’ll follow them. Don’t just say, “Don’t exploit!” cause that isn’t always clear, as I’ve stated above.

Reikou.7068:

Because to be honest, most of the people are just playing the game the way its meant to be played. Anet then comes and retroactively claims something you are doing is an exploit and then bans you.

In the current form of the EULA, Anet does not attempt to define “Exploit,” and thus literally anything and everything you do in game can be labeled as an “exploit,” and result in a ban. This is fully in their legal right, but honestly very bad customer service.

the thing is people that got banned for exploits WERE exploiting
so far exploit is:
1. running up the walls to skip mobs in dungeons (CM)
2. Standing somewhere the boss can’t attack you back (TA tree boss, fractal swamp boss)
3. Glitching out the boss so it couldn’t do anything back to you (Cliffside fractal)
4. Making an item, salvaging to get the main ingredient back and getting infinite ectos like that (snowflake exploit)
Essentially anything that gets you infinite of something without making you lose ingredients, anything that prevents the boss mechanics to work as intended, anything that makes you invulnerable to damage longer than you should be, anything that allows you to skip most of the area.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Problem is, no one knows what ANets cutoffs are. I may do something ten times and never realize it was an exploit (where could I ever find out unless banned?)

Second, I like the rules. I want exploiters to be banned. I don’t want anyone to take advantage of the game and potentially ruin it for others.

Just let me know what the rules are and I’ll follow them. Don’t just say, “Don’t exploit!” cause that isn’t always clear, as I’ve stated above.

This.

Basically this.

I have no problems with banning exploiters or anyone who breaks the EULA. Just make it clear to player what is kosher under EULA and what isn’t.

I’ve never heard of anyone getting banned for standing on the tree, or skipping mobs? Do you have a quote for that. As far as I know there were three big waves of ban, from three different exploits, two of which affected the economy and the drinking one, which I said before I don’t think should have been a perma-ban. Maybe a 72 hour ban and a roll back.

Have people really been banned for bugging out bosses?

Doing something that gives you an unfair advantage or enable you to skip stuff, is quite clearly exploits, and it is also things like these that people have been banned for.

Mirta.5029:

Essentially anything that gets you infinite of something without making you lose ingredients, anything that prevents the boss mechanics to work as intended, anything that makes you invulnerable to damage longer than you should be, anything that allows you to skip most of the area.

What is “work as intended?” Should every PvE zerger be banned? Because its pretty obvious this wasn’t how the game was "intended to be played.

Vayne.8563:

I’ve never heard of anyone getting banned for standing on the tree, or skipping mobs? Do you have a quote for that. As far as I know there were three big waves of ban, from three different exploits, two of which affected the economy and the drinking one, which I said before I don’t think should have been a perma-ban. Maybe a 72 hour ban and a roll back.

Have people really been banned for bugging out bosses?

well it is an exploit. As I remember some got banned for the tree man and its branch got fixed, then some got banned for running walls in CM, I don’t know if that got fixed though. For you to get banned for it you need to either be reported, or do a lot of that dungeon very fast for them to notice that the amount of tickets you’re getting an hour indicate that something is not right there. The thing is anything that breaks the boss mechanics puts you in danger of getting banned, because it is an exploit. I tend to report the people that try to exploit dungeons and insist of doing them the normal way, because it’s just plainly wrong.

Reikou.7068:

What is “work as intended?” Should every PvE zerger be banned? Because its pretty obvious this wasn’t how the game was "intended to be played.

so in your opinion MMO was not intended to have lots of people in it? As far as I remember events scale up, world bosses require lots of people to be there to begin with and quests don’t really suffer when there is a bunch of people doing the same thing.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Problem is, no one knows what ANets cutoffs are. I may do something ten times and never realize it was an exploit (where could I ever find out unless banned?)

Second, I like the rules. I want exploiters to be banned. I don’t want anyone to take advantage of the game and potentially ruin it for others.

Just let me know what the rules are and I’ll follow them. Don’t just say, “Don’t exploit!” cause that isn’t always clear, as I’ve stated above.

It’s not a problem for several million people – and that’s just for one game. Millions more play WoW and other games under the same “we know it when we see it” rules.

It cannot be clearly defined because setting these limits to begin with invites exploitation in itself when people use the excuse “but it doesn’t fit the definition of exploiting!”

The answer you already have is the best answer you will get. You have two choices:

1: Accept it.

2: Don’t play.

Hmm, I’d be very surprised that people got banned for bugging out a boss in an instance. Let’s take the TA one.

Let’s say you bug out the final boss, who isn’t that tough anyway. But you still have to play through the entire dungeon to get to the final boss. It’s much faster to just to CoF path 1. So whos’ going to do that path over and over again and to what end.

From what I understand Anet isn’t going to ban someone for doing something once or twice.

I agree, I’d rather do the paths “honestly” rather than find tricks to do them, but I’ve still never heard of anyone being banned for doing that.

tolunart.2095:

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Problem is, no one knows what ANets cutoffs are. I may do something ten times and never realize it was an exploit (where could I ever find out unless banned?)

Second, I like the rules. I want exploiters to be banned. I don’t want anyone to take advantage of the game and potentially ruin it for others.

Just let me know what the rules are and I’ll follow them. Don’t just say, “Don’t exploit!” cause that isn’t always clear, as I’ve stated above.

It’s not a problem for several million people – and that’s just for one game. Millions more play WoW and other games under the same “we know it when we see it” rules.

It cannot be clearly defined because setting these limits to begin with invites exploitation in itself when people use the excuse “but it doesn’t fit the definition of exploiting!”

The answer you already have is the best answer you will get. You have two choices:

1: Accept it.

2: Don’t play.

Wrong. Those are not my two choices.

I can continue to ask ANet for transparency. As long as I continue to discuss this rationally and reasonably, I can sit and hope that things change, or I am lucky and don’t do anything that gets me banned.

Plus, I never said, “define what may be an exploit.”

I said, “Tell me when ANet has determined what they have found to be an exploit, so I can avoid it.”

As I told ANet staff, my actual choice is that until I am given the tools to protect myself from having my account terminated without warning for something I didn’t even know I did, I can’t become anymore financially invested in this game.

EDIT: You may want to check out the accounts page for how easily those “millions” of people can find themselves on the other side of the coin without explanation. Seems it doesn’t work out for everyone as nicely as you would like to claim.

Unfortunately it’s a mindset among gamers – “If you aren’t cheating, you aren’t trying hard enough”.

Just look at how much DDOSing, crashing servers etc. used to go on at the top tier of WoW, and still does to some degree. Not to mention the constant exploits by the top guilds.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

tolunart.2095:

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Problem is, no one knows what ANets cutoffs are. I may do something ten times and never realize it was an exploit (where could I ever find out unless banned?)

Second, I like the rules. I want exploiters to be banned. I don’t want anyone to take advantage of the game and potentially ruin it for others.

Just let me know what the rules are and I’ll follow them. Don’t just say, “Don’t exploit!” cause that isn’t always clear, as I’ve stated above.

It’s not a problem for several million people – and that’s just for one game. Millions more play WoW and other games under the same “we know it when we see it” rules.

It cannot be clearly defined because setting these limits to begin with invites exploitation in itself when people use the excuse “but it doesn’t fit the definition of exploiting!”

The answer you already have is the best answer you will get. You have two choices:

1: Accept it.

2: Don’t play.

Wrong. Those are not my two choices.

I can continue to ask ANet for transparency. As long as I continue to discuss this rationally and reasonable, I can sit and hope that things change, or I am lucky and don’t do anything that gets me banned.

Plus, I never said, “define what may be an exploit.”

I said, “Tell me when ANet has determined what they have found to be an exploit, so I can avoid it.”

As I told ANet staff, my actual choice is that until I am given the tools to protect myself from having my account terminated without warning for something I didn’t even know I did, I can’t become anymore financially invested in this game.

LOL good luck with that.

Vayne.8563:

Hmm, I’d be very surprised that people got banned for bugging out a boss in an instance. Let’s take the TA one.

Let’s say you bug out the final boss, who isn’t that tough anyway. But you still have to play through the entire dungeon to get to the final boss. It’s much faster to just to CoF path 1. So whos’ going to do that path over and over again and to what end.

From what I understand Anet isn’t going to ban someone for doing something once or twice.

I agree, I’d rather do the paths “honestly” rather than find tricks to do them, but I’ve still never heard of anyone being banned for doing that.

I’m just saying that if you exploit in any way you have a chance of getting banned, because you could get reported and it does count as an exploit. TA thing – I don’t think that people would be picked up by the system without the reports, CM wall running though – it makes you finish so fast that if people farmed it I wouldn’t be surprised that the numbers of tickets and the speed of acquiring them would seem suspicious to Anet.

tolunart.2095:

LOL good luck with that.

Thank you. And with support of players like you, I’m sure they’ll get right on it.

I would blame the poor upbringing of other mmo games who has put the fault of exploits to the game side rather than the user. Anet has given us partial responsibility as adults to do the right thing or risk the consequences. Anyone who says they don’t know if they’re exploiting something is either in extreme denial or just plain silly.

Let me give you some examples:

Oh, this event seems to be bugged and is infinitely spawning mobs, i wonder if this is intended or an exploit?

Oh this crafting item requires a lot less than usual mats compared to others of it’s same quality tier. I wonder if this is an exploit?

Oh, this karma merchant is selling something extremely cheap compared to others of its tier, I wonder if this is an exploit?

See what i’m getting at? To be honest, Anet is already very lenient with exploits, they only ban exploiters who are seriously damaging the economy and the game and not everyone who has ever committed an exploit. Most exploiters who get banned are the ones who get greedy. When repeating it once or twice isn’t enough but they have to do it thousands of times.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

tolunart.2095:

LOL good luck with that.

Thank you. And with support of players like you, I’m sure they’ll get right on it.

Like I said, millions of people don’t have a problem with it. Obviously you do. I wouldn’t expect anything to change anytime soon.

Myself, I wouldn’t know an exploit if I tripped over it. I don’t try to break the game.

tolunart.2095:

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

tolunart.2095:

LOL good luck with that.

Thank you. And with support of players like you, I’m sure they’ll get right on it.

Like I said, millions of people don’t have a problem with it. Obviously you do. I wouldn’t expect anything to change anytime soon.

Ahhh, the ol’ Argumentum ad populum (argument from popularity).

I was told in another thread that utilizing an exploit was a sign of “skill.”

Yeah, I’m still laughing at that one too.

When is an exploit an exploit and I not talking about bots.

For example(s):

A skill point or veteran is to strong for me to solo. I happen to discover that if I position myself behind this ledge or whatever I can attack him but he can not attack me. It that an exploit or using tactics. Maybe it isn’t so obvious as a gap in the rocks instead its using 3 well placed trees. If this is exploitation then I’m guilty

If there is a Mesmer on top of the water falls in lions arch that is teleporting other players so they can get to the jumping puzzle chest without do the jumping puzzle is that an exploit? Who’s exploiting, the Mesmer or the player taking advantage of the Mesmer skill? Does the Mesmer asking for tips impact if it is an exploit or not? Hum, at what level does the Mesmer get this skill?

If I figure out I can level a toon faster by only doing dailies and only running the starting area is that an exploit? ie 30 minutes at say level 60 verses two or more hours in the level 55-65 area. Guilty again

If a player got to level 80 only by crafting because a lot of other players feed him all the mats is that an exploit? Now that he achieved master status and can craft items that sell for lots of gold and then splits the profits with the mat farmers is that an exploit?

If a player buys gems, sells the gems for gold and buys all his armor/buffs to better compete in WvW or pvp is that an exploit?

If I share my gold with another family member is that an exploit? They did not earn it or have to buy gems to get that extra character slot they bought with the gold I gave them. Guilty again

Since I don’t care about having the best armor or weapons, skins, mini pets or buying exp/karma buffs etc. am I exploiting the game by not buy gems?

Shootsfoot.9276:

I was told in another thread that utilizing an exploit was a sign of “skill.”

Yeah, I’m still laughing at that one too.

Knowing about an exploit is a sign of game knowledge, which is part of being good at the game.

Being ABLE to do the exploit is a sign of game ability, which is also part of being good at the game.

Abusing the exploit is another topic altogether.

But most importantly, it must be clear to each player what exactly IS an exploit.

Theoldman.6483:

When is an exploit an exploit and I not talking about bots.

For example(s):

A skill point or veteran is to strong for me to solo. I happen to discover that if I position myself behind this ledge or whatever I can attack him but he can not attack me. It that an exploit or using tactics. Maybe it isn’t so obvious as a gap in the rocks instead its using 3 well placed trees. If this is exploitation then I’m guilty

If there is a Mesmer on top of the water falls in lions arch that is teleporting other players so they can get to the jumping puzzle chest without do the jumping puzzle is that an exploit? Who’s exploiting, the Mesmer or the player taking advantage of the Mesmer skill? Does the Mesmer asking for tips impact if it is an exploit or not? Hum, at what level does the Mesmer get this skill?

If I figure out I can level a toon faster by only doing dailies and only running the starting area is that an exploit? ie 30 minutes at say level 60 verses two or more hours in the level 55-65 area. Guilty again

If a player got to level 80 only by crafting because a lot of other players feed him all the mats is that an exploit? Now that he achieved master status and can craft items that sell for lots of gold and then splits the profits with the mat farmers is that an exploit?

If a player buys gems, sells the gems for gold and buys all his armor/buffs to better compete in WvW or pvp is that an exploit?

If I share my gold with another family member is that an exploit? They did not earn it or have to buy gems to get that extra character slot they bought with the gold I gave them. Guilty again

Since I don’t care about having the best armor or weapons, skins, mini pets or buying exp/karma buffs etc. am I exploiting the game by not buy gems?

Here is my question to you personally. Would you stop doing all those if ANet told you that they were exploits and you would lose your account if you continued doing them?

Theoldman.6483:

When is an exploit an exploit and I not talking about bots.

For example(s):

A skill point or veteran is to strong for me to solo. I happen to discover that if I position myself behind this ledge or whatever I can attack him but he can not attack me. It that an exploit or using tactics. Maybe it isn’t so obvious as a gap in the rocks instead its using 3 well placed trees. If this is exploitation then I’m guilty

If there is a Mesmer on top of the water falls in lions arch that is teleporting other players so they can get to the jumping puzzle chest without do the jumping puzzle is that an exploit? Who’s exploiting, the Mesmer or the player taking advantage of the Mesmer skill? Does the Mesmer asking for tips impact if it is an exploit or not? Hum, at what level does the Mesmer get this skill?

If I figure out I can level a toon faster by only doing dailies and only running the starting area is that an exploit? ie 30 minutes at say level 60 verses two or more hours in the level 55-65 area. Guilty again

If a player got to level 80 only by crafting because a lot of other players feed him all the mats is that an exploit? Now that he achieved master status and can craft items that sell for lots of gold and then splits the profits with the mat farmers is that an exploit?

If a player buys gems, sells the gems for gold and buys all his armor/buffs to better compete in WvW or pvp is that an exploit?

If I share my gold with another family member is that an exploit? They did not earn it or have to buy gems to get that extra character slot they bought with the gold I gave them. Guilty again

Since I don’t care about having the best armor or weapons, skins, mini pets or buying exp/karma buffs etc. am I exploiting the game by not buy gems?

Most of those are not exploits, the one that borderlines an exploit is the one where you’re killing the vet. However, Anet often overlooks those since it’s not something that has a damaging impact on the game. It’s really not hard to tell if something is an exploit or not.

The game doesn’t require you to buy gems at all to play.
Mesmer portal skill is designed to function that way.
You can level your character however you choose, you can craft level it up or do only dailies in low level areas, that option is totally up to you.

Judging by what you’ve written, I feel you have a very poor grasp of the concert of exploiting, either taking it too into the extremes or becoming in extreme denial about it. I suggest you look back on something the past ban histories in this game and have a feel what exploits really is. In short, anet takes anything that has a significant influence to the economy very seriously.

Reikou.7068:

Shootsfoot.9276:

I was told in another thread that utilizing an exploit was a sign of “skill.”

Yeah, I’m still laughing at that one too.

Knowing about an exploit is a sign of game knowledge, which is part of being good at the game.

Being ABLE to do the exploit is a sign of game ability, which is also part of being good at the game.

Abusing the exploit is another topic altogether.

But most importantly, it must be clear to each player what exactly IS an exploit.

Knowledge does not equal skill. I know every rule in golf and I know a lot about the history of it, but I still carry a 16 handicap.

In this case the exploit was buying something that was obviously mis-marked in price.

Getting up into an area where a boss can’t get to you isn’t an exploit to me, it’s a tactic. It’s up to the designers if they want to remove that tactic or not.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Theoldman.6483:

When is an exploit an exploit and I not talking about bots.

For example(s):

A skill point or veteran is to strong for me to solo. I happen to discover that if I position myself behind this ledge or whatever I can attack him but he can not attack me. It that an exploit or using tactics. Maybe it isn’t so obvious as a gap in the rocks instead its using 3 well placed trees. If this is exploitation then I’m guilty

If there is a Mesmer on top of the water falls in lions arch that is teleporting other players so they can get to the jumping puzzle chest without do the jumping puzzle is that an exploit? Who’s exploiting, the Mesmer or the player taking advantage of the Mesmer skill? Does the Mesmer asking for tips impact if it is an exploit or not? Hum, at what level does the Mesmer get this skill?

If I figure out I can level a toon faster by only doing dailies and only running the starting area is that an exploit? ie 30 minutes at say level 60 verses two or more hours in the level 55-65 area. Guilty again

If a player got to level 80 only by crafting because a lot of other players feed him all the mats is that an exploit? Now that he achieved master status and can craft items that sell for lots of gold and then splits the profits with the mat farmers is that an exploit?

If a player buys gems, sells the gems for gold and buys all his armor/buffs to better compete in WvW or pvp is that an exploit?

If I share my gold with another family member is that an exploit? They did not earn it or have to buy gems to get that extra character slot they bought with the gold I gave them. Guilty again

Since I don’t care about having the best armor or weapons, skins, mini pets or buying exp/karma buffs etc. am I exploiting the game by not buy gems?

Here is my question to you personally. Would you stop doing all those if ANet told you that they were exploits and you would lose your account if you continued doing them?

Question is irrelevant because those are not exploits. It’s like saying, would you stop breathing air because the government told you to. It’s a very part of the game. Exploits aren’t.

Lafiel.9372:

I would blame the poor upbringing of other mmo games who has put the fault of exploits to the game side rather than the user. Anet has given us partial responsibility as adults to do the right thing or risk the consequences. Anyone who says they don’t know if they’re exploiting something is either in extreme denial or just plain silly.

Let me give you some examples:

Oh, this event seems to be bugged and is infinitely spawning mobs, i wonder if this is intended or an exploit?

Oh this crafting item requires a lot less than usual mats compared to others of it’s same quality tier. I wonder if this is an exploit?

Oh, this karma merchant is selling something extremely cheap compared to others of its tier, I wonder if this is an exploit?

See what i’m getting at? To be honest, Anet is already very lenient with exploits, they only ban exploiters who are seriously damaging the economy and the game and not everyone who has ever committed an exploit. Most exploiters who get banned are the ones who get greedy. When repeating it once or twice isn’t enough but they have to do it thousands of times.

The problem here is not the ambiguous rules. It’s the ban without explanation. I don’t care if they make rules up on the spot. I just would like to be informed on what rule I broke so at least I could regret something as opposed to be confused. And no, I was not banned and I do support bans for exploiters. I just think people who bought a game and got perma banned should at least know what they did wrong.

Lafiel.9372:

Question is irrelevant because those are not exploits. It’s like saying, would you stop breathing air because the government told you to. It’s a very part of the game. Exploits aren’t.

Whew, it’s a good thing you’re so well versed on what is, and isn’t an exploit in GW2. Would you be willing to post your email so those of us who aren’t sure can contact you and ask? Would you be willing to defend me if I accidentally get banned for an exploit you were wrong about?

Theoldman.6483:

When is an exploit an exploit and I not talking about bots.

For example(s):

A skill point or veteran is to strong for me to solo. I happen to discover that if I position myself behind this ledge or whatever I can attack him but he can not attack me. It that an exploit or using tactics. Maybe it isn’t so obvious as a gap in the rocks instead its using 3 well placed trees. If this is exploitation then I’m guilty

that’s an exploit.

Theoldman.6483:

If there is a Mesmer on top of the water falls in lions arch that is teleporting other players so they can get to the jumping puzzle chest without do the jumping puzzle is that an exploit? Who’s exploiting, the Mesmer or the player taking advantage of the Mesmer skill? Does the Mesmer asking for tips impact if it is an exploit or not? Hum, at what level does the Mesmer get this skill?

exploit. Both the player using it and the mesmer doing it.

Theoldman.6483:

If I figure out I can level a toon faster by only doing dailies and only running the starting area is that an exploit? ie 30 minutes at say level 60 verses two or more hours in the level 55-65 area. Guilty again

not an exploit. Dailies give exp. Some people do very slow leveling by just doing the dailies. The game is not being broken by the user for doing so, it doesn’t give you an advantage.

Theoldman.6483:

If a player got to level 80 only by crafting because a lot of other players feed him all the mats is that an exploit?

crafting your way to 80 is not an exploit, but if the mats sent were really high level ones or in big amounts some accounts might be temporarily suspended for gold selling investigation.

Theoldman.6483:

Now that he achieved master status and can craft items that sell for lots of gold and then splits the profits with the mat farmers is that an exploit?

not an exploit, though mat farmers would earn more by just selling the mats. And if the profits would be sent in big sums your account might once again be suspended for a gold selling investigation.

Theoldman.6483:

If a player buys gems, sells the gems for gold and buys all his armor/buffs to better compete in WvW or pvp is that an exploit?

you can get exotics without selling gems very easily so not an exploit. Also Spvp is not influenced by the gear that you have on your toon when you enter or your level.

Theoldman.6483:

If I share my gold with another family member is that an exploit? They did not earn it or have to buy gems to get that extra character slot they bought with the gold I gave them. Guilty again

not an exploit, but once again your account might get suspended for gold selling investigation.

Theoldman.6483:

Since I don’t care about having the best armor or weapons, skins, mini pets or buying exp/karma buffs etc. am I exploiting the game by not buy gems?

There’s no requirement to buy gems, so why do you thin kit would be an exploit not to buy them? It’s not an exploit. The same way if you decided NOT to mine nodes it wouldn’t be an exploit -_-

Lafiel.9372:

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Theoldman.6483:

When is an exploit an exploit and I not talking about bots.

For example(s):

A skill point or veteran is to strong for me to solo. I happen to discover that if I position myself behind this ledge or whatever I can attack him but he can not attack me. It that an exploit or using tactics. Maybe it isn’t so obvious as a gap in the rocks instead its using 3 well placed trees. If this is exploitation then I’m guilty

If there is a Mesmer on top of the water falls in lions arch that is teleporting other players so they can get to the jumping puzzle chest without do the jumping puzzle is that an exploit? Who’s exploiting, the Mesmer or the player taking advantage of the Mesmer skill? Does the Mesmer asking for tips impact if it is an exploit or not? Hum, at what level does the Mesmer get this skill?

If I figure out I can level a toon faster by only doing dailies and only running the starting area is that an exploit? ie 30 minutes at say level 60 verses two or more hours in the level 55-65 area. Guilty again

If a player got to level 80 only by crafting because a lot of other players feed him all the mats is that an exploit? Now that he achieved master status and can craft items that sell for lots of gold and then splits the profits with the mat farmers is that an exploit?

If a player buys gems, sells the gems for gold and buys all his armor/buffs to better compete in WvW or pvp is that an exploit?

If I share my gold with another family member is that an exploit? They did not earn it or have to buy gems to get that extra character slot they bought with the gold I gave them. Guilty again

Since I don’t care about having the best armor or weapons, skins, mini pets or buying exp/karma buffs etc. am I exploiting the game by not buy gems?

Here is my question to you personally. Would you stop doing all those if ANet told you that they were exploits and you would lose your account if you continued doing them?

Question is irrelevant because those are not exploits. It’s like saying, would you stop breathing air because the government told you to. It’s a very part of the game. Exploits aren’t.

Lol, exploits are a part of the game too. I think you are getting yourself confused with cheating. Exploits are just abusing in-game mechanics and/or mistakes. But it’s all in the design nothing external or unnatural about it.

As a programmer and game designer my self…anyone who abuses exploits (ie-bug abusing) should be banned. I worked hard on this game creating the rules and then you have the gall to attempt to cheat my system? Ban-hammer on that. (talking about my own projects here)

Anet however has a even more lax policy then I do, they warn by generally coming out and saying “If you keep abusing this bug, or are doing it an insane amount of times (Snowflake glitch) you will be removed from the game”. Then you can go onto the ban appeals and get it removed generally 90% of the time.

Wrongfully banned or not its a good policy for the players since they have the EULA at their disposal, which lets all face it, what game DOESN’T have a EULA that they can bend? You can’t (in legal-ese) define what a bug/glitch/expolit is other then “an action which breaks the rules/spirit of the game”, they can’t say “If you are caught using skill X on mob X to generate more item X then intended you will be banned for expolits!”

As the OP said, don’t bug abuse/cheat/use expolits/whatever to attempt to get ahead unless you want to run the risk of being banned. This ISN’T a conversation about wiether you know if you are abusing or not, this is people who abuse and KNOW it, don’t derail the conversation.

And this is why the definition of what is an exploit is needed when initiating a discussion like this. Everyone has a different view of what an exploit is and what isn’t.

Usually the definition of a game exploit goes along the lines of using a bug or game mechanic in a manner that was not intended by the game designers. Of course, there is one huge problem with this definition: how can we, as players, know what the game designer intended?

My personal views:

Moving into a position that an NPC cannot get to and cannot damage you while being able to damage it:

that’s an exploit.

I happen to agree with this since it appears to be doing something that prevents game mechanics from functioning properly. But, I can also understand why someone would not think that this is an exploit after all the game not only allows for it but in some locations the design of the environment almost seems to encourage it. In some games doing stuff like this is part of the game design on purpose. So, is this an exploit? How do we know? I believe that it is since I don’t think that the area designers intended it to happen BUT how do I know? Maybe they decided to put an unreachable by NPC spot in just to allow for this? Since I don’t know I wouldn’t call someone out for doing it even though I wouldn’t do it myself.

Theoldman.6483:

If there is a Mesmer on top of the water falls in lions arch that is teleporting other players so they can get to the jumping puzzle chest without do the jumping puzzle is that an exploit?

Mirta.5029:

exploit. Both the player using it and the mesmer doing it.

For me this isn’t an exploit since it is clearly “fair use” of the portal skill. If the game designers didn’t want for it to happen they would have made the jumping puzzle a no-portal zone. But, I can also see the reasoning into thinking that it could be considered an exploit.

For every example listed I can see the reasoning either way to consider it an exploit or not one. The only entity that can give us the definitive answer is ArenaNet since they are the only ones who know how a particular situation was designed to be.

Is speed clearing dungeons an exploit? I have no idea. Did the designers of the dungeon mean to design into the level an optimal path? Or did they mean for people to clear the entire dungeon each time? I tend to believe speed clearing is an exploit at a general level since, usually, dungeons are not designed to have most of their “context” by-passed but in some dungeons the intent could very well be just that so.. who knows? I don’t.

As players we can’t decide what is an exploit or isn’t. Some things may seem obvious to be an exploit like using a clear bug (glitching through a wall for example) but most things aren’t. How is someone to know that a bottle isn’t meant to be infinite? It could be the dungeon reward. What about a cheap weapon? Maybe a game designer put it there one purpose.. we just don’t know.

I would like to see a list of things that ArenaNet has decided are exploits in an easily accessible place but that’s my preference. I’m a believer in open communication.

Reikou.7068:

Because to be honest, most of the people are just playing the game the way its meant to be played. Anet then comes and retroactively claims something you are doing is an exploit and then bans you.

In the current form of the EULA, Anet does not attempt to define “Exploit,” and thus literally anything and everything you do in game can be labeled as an “exploit,” and result in a ban. This is fully in their legal right, but honestly very bad customer service.

This.

Vayne.8563:

Oh please! Are you really saying that someone who comes along, looks at a vendor, sees ten of one type of thing for 2 gold and sees 1 of the same thing for 2 s, doesn’t know that there’s an error somewhere?

Actually, no. Because you can still buy materials, craft certain items and then sell them on TP for profit, is this an exploit too? I’ve been doing this since release, haven’t been banned yet.

This was the same thing with the snowflake ‘exploit’. Of course it was much more profitable. But with anything profitable it adjusted the price of the materials. Snowflakes were so expensive that you couldn’t even make any more profit on it at the end before they patched it.

In short, people rarely know that they’re exploiting because there are many money making ways that are legal. It’s all a huge gray area.

whiran.1473:

Is speed clearing dungeons an exploit? I have no idea. Did the designers of the dungeon mean to design into the level an optimal path? Or did they mean for people to clear the entire dungeon each time? I tend to believe speed clearing is an exploit at a general level since, usually, dungeons are not designed to have most of their “context” by-passed but in some dungeons the intent could very well be just that so.. who knows? I don’t.

well here we know for sure – Anet has answered that while they don’t favor people speedrunning dungeons, it’s not an exploit. They also suggested to people that don’t like speedrunning to join a guild that doesn’t speed run.

Charming Rogue.8071:

Vayne.8563:

Oh please! Are you really saying that someone who comes along, looks at a vendor, sees ten of one type of thing for 2 gold and sees 1 of the same thing for 2 s, doesn’t know that there’s an error somewhere?

Actually, no. Because you can still buy materials, craft certain items and then sell them on TP for profit, is this an exploit too? I’ve been doing this since release, haven’t been banned yet.

This was the same thing with the snowflake ‘exploit’. Of course it was much more profitable. But with anything profitable it adjusted the price of the materials. Snowflakes were so expensive that you couldn’t even make any more profit on it at the end before they patched it.

In short, people rarely know that they’re exploiting because there are many money making ways that are legal. It’s all a huge gray area.

if you see 10 items of the same level costing a gold each and one item that’s no different, but only costs 2 silver you SHOULD pick up that something is wrong there and report it.
If crafting something and then salvaging in you’re able to always get an ecto and the expensive ingredient back that is also obviously an exploit. You have to be lacking a brain cell not to see it.

lordkrall.7241:

Doing something that gives you an unfair advantage or enable you to skip stuff, is quite clearly exploits, and it is also things like these that people have been banned for.

So using portal in CoE or CoF part one or running past mobs until they lose aggro is an exploit?

@whiran, very good, you read through my long winded list of examples and pulled out the hidden essence of my reply since I knew there would be disagreement on them.

clay.7849:

So using portal in CoE or CoF part one or running past mobs until they lose aggro is an exploit?

Oh, so there is a new awesome skill that I have missed on my mesmer (my main btw) that allows me to skip part of the content to set-up that portal?

clay.7849:

lordkrall.7241:

Doing something that gives you an unfair advantage or enable you to skip stuff, is quite clearly exploits, and it is also things like these that people have been banned for.

So using portal in CoE or CoF part one or running past mobs until they lose aggro is an exploit?

portalling trough a wall in CoF would be an exploit. I don’t know where you can use that portal to get an unfair advantage in CoE though. Could you please describe it?

You said skipping content. I use portal to skip content all the time. Is that an exploit? Yes or no? Or would you like to take back the skipping content part of your definition?

You have never used the skill “portal” to help your team skip content? Actually, you just said skip stuff, which is even more vague.

Mirta.5029:

clay.7849:

lordkrall.7241:

Doing something that gives you an unfair advantage or enable you to skip stuff, is quite clearly exploits, and it is also things like these that people have been banned for.

So using portal in CoE or CoF part one or running past mobs until they lose aggro is an exploit?

portalling trough a wall in CoF would be an exploit. I don’t know where you can use that portal to get an unfair advantage in CoE though. Could you please describe it?

When did I say unfair advantage?

Although, now that we mention it, I think that thieves using culling in WvW gave them an unfair advantage. Would that be an exploit? If so, why weren’t all the people that did that banned?

Your definition of exploit as it relates to perma-bans is quite vague and poorly defined.

clay.7849:

Mirta.5029:

clay.7849:

lordkrall.7241:

Doing something that gives you an unfair advantage or enable you to skip stuff, is quite clearly exploits, and it is also things like these that people have been banned for.

So using portal in CoE or CoF part one or running past mobs until they lose aggro is an exploit?

portalling trough a wall in CoF would be an exploit. I don’t know where you can use that portal to get an unfair advantage in CoE though. Could you please describe it?

When did I say unfair advantage?

did you mean the laser bit? I don’t know there. One way of looking at it – one person has to pass the lasers to plot down the portal, looking the other way – the other two people can skip. Running past mobs is not an exploit though, because you can get hit by them. If you’re wall running to avoid that, that would be an exploit.

clay.7849:

You said skipping content. I use portal to skip content all the time. Is that an exploit? Yes or no? Or would you like to take back the skipping content part of your definition?

You have never used the skill “portal” to help your team skip content? Actually, you just said skip stuff, which is even more vague.

Are everyone skipping content when using a portal?
I am not sure but I am quite certain that at least one player (the mesmer) needs to actually do the content, in order for the rest to use the portal. So clearly people are not skipping the content but rather using an available skill the way it was designed.

If they did on the other hand jump over a wall or something and therefore allowed everyone to skip said content it would be an exploit.

clay.7849:

You said skipping content. I use portal to skip content all the time. Is that an exploit? Yes or no? Or would you like to take back the skipping content part of your definition?

You have never used the skill “portal” to help your team skip content? Actually, you just said skip stuff, which is even more vague.

If the portal gives you access to an area you should not have access to by glitching, than it’s an exploit. If the mesmer on the other hand actually has to go to that area first the normal way than it is not an exploit.

I could give examples, but that would either infract me or close the thread entirely.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Imagine if the answer to the 20 Rats exploit was something like:

“We have determined that there is an exploit that allows players to gain the “indiscriminate Slayer” achievement by killing a bugged number of rats in the Trolls Cave. This will be fixed in the next patch. Any players using this exploit will risk permanent account termination."

If you have any questions or concerns, please submit a support ticket HERE."

That would require effort on Anet’s part, so it’s not going to happen.

Conner.4702:

clay.7849:

You said skipping content. I use portal to skip content all the time. Is that an exploit? Yes or no? Or would you like to take back the skipping content part of your definition?

You have never used the skill “portal” to help your team skip content? Actually, you just said skip stuff, which is even more vague.

If the portal gives you access to an area you should not have access to by glitching, than it’s an exploit. If the mesmer on the other hand actually has to go to that area first the normal way than it is not an exploit.

I could give examples, but that would either infract me or close the thread entirely.

So you don’t think that there are instances where the portal helps people skip “stuff”?

What I’m trying to point out is that the definition lordkrall gives is way too vague. What is skipping “stuff”?

clay.7849:

So you don’t think that there are instances where the portal helps people skip “stuff”?

What I’m trying to point out is that the definition lordkrall gives is way too vague. What is skipping “stuff”?

It is a rather big difference between someone doing the hard stuff and then putting up a teleport compared to no one doing the hard stuff at all.