Guild Wars 2

I know that hacked accounts are used to run bots and exploits, but I simply don’t understand why some (regular) players risk their own account by doing exploits?

Anet can easily track your moves and hits really hard with no mercy (perma bann), which I strongly support. We all remember the snow-flake bann avalanche.

But why risk a perma bann for an account that you have invested hundreds of fun playing hours?

Ps. Don’t exploit! The Unmerciful Hammer of Bann hits hard!

You assume that everyone knows they’re exploiting.

P.s. this thread will be locked.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

You assume that everyone knows they’re exploiting.

P.s. this thread will be locked.

People that aren’t completely stupid or at least very ignorant is fully aware if they exploit something.

Why do people do anything? Why do they grief? Why do they commit crimes? Why do they cheat on spouses?

The short answer is that people do it for different reasons. Some people like the thrill of being “bad”. Some people like to “get over”…to get something other people can’t get. Or to have some kind of advantage. Some people don’t realize they’re exploiting. Some don’t care, because they get bored with a game.

There’s not just one reason why people exploit (though I realize you were probably asking it rhetorically and just making a plea for people to stop).

And yeah, this will get locked.

Because they can. It’s the human condition. May as well ask why people cheat/lie/swear/steal/kill. Humans are generally kittens and some of the only things that keep them in line is societal rules and customs.

MMOs are tiny social experiments that game developers not only have to make fun, but also put in a whole ruleset to keep people in line otherwise the general populace devolves into base desires quite quickly. There are always outliers who are the nice folks/white knights, but without a set of clear guidelines in place to ensure equality or fairness a mmo would be a chaotic mess.

Some people just don’t care about rules or society, they just care about them. It’s the way the world works and, in turn, the way mmos work.

I briefly played a game called Shadowbane. In that game, you were mostly useless unless you were at max level, so I found a guild who were happy to take me on and get me ‘powerleveled,’ which meant exploiting high level mobs into a choke point where they couldn’t attack me though but I could attack them. I was younger then and thought this was part of the game, being that it was more of a PvP game anyway. But, another guild saw us doing it and had us all banned. Lesson learned, now I don’t look for shortcuts.

In Guild Wars 1, there were actually some “legal” exploits. Like you could finish all of Prophecies, while skipping half the game. You could actually get a run from Beacons Perch to Droks. Hell, people used to sell the run. They’d run you and you’d get max armor early but if you leveled there or you were already high enough level, you could also complete the game from there, skipping all the missions in the Maguuma Jungle and all the missions in the Crystal Desert, and even one of the missions in the Southern Shiverpeaks if you wanted to.

There were people running people through dungeons and outposts in Guild Wars 1 too. The last mission in Factions was a very popular run. People had a “trick” method of doing it where it took less than a minute to finish the mission. It involved using an elementalist mesmer and one of the special skills you got for the mission, combined with a couple of spells that allowed you to duplicate that special skill. It made the last mission in Factions, the climactic battle, totally pointless.

Running, Shiro, 1k normal mode, 2k hard mode.

And you could get max armor in Nightfall long before you should have been able to by catching a “ferry” to Consolate Docks by someone who had the quest active “The Time is Nigh”. People would abandon that quest and retake it and ferry people again and again as a source of income. In fact, running builds were often much discussed in Guild Wars 1.

No one ever got banned for that stuff in Guild Wars 1, it was considered part of the game.

Because to be honest, most of the people are just playing the game the way its meant to be played. Anet then comes and retroactively claims something you are doing is an exploit and then bans you.

In the current form of the EULA, Anet does not attempt to define “Exploit,” and thus literally anything and everything you do in game can be labeled as an “exploit,” and result in a ban. This is fully in their legal right, but honestly very bad customer service.

Reikou.7068:

Because to be honest, most of the people are just playing the game the way its meant to be played. Anet then comes and retroactively claims something you are doing is an exploit and then bans you.

In the current form of the EULA, Anet does not attempt to define “Exploit,” and thus literally anything and everything you do in game can be labeled as an “exploit,” and result in a ban. This is fully in their legal right, but honestly very bad customer service.

You mean just like every other MMO ever created?
The reason they don’t define exploit is because it is more or less impossible to define it in a way so that people can’t find loop-holes.

because its all about having “more” nowadays.
more gold, more points, more shiny,…

a lot, if not most, dont care if its acutally “fun” to get it. they “work” to get more. just as they would do in real life.
so of course they try to take the shortest way possible and some of them … well.. shortcuts.

the punishment/ban on the other hand is done way too inconsistent for people to care about while going after “more”.

Reikou.7068:

Because to be honest, most of the people are just playing the game the way its meant to be played. Anet then comes and retroactively claims something you are doing is an exploit and then bans you.

In the current form of the EULA, Anet does not attempt to define “Exploit,” and thus literally anything and everything you do in game can be labeled as an “exploit,” and result in a ban. This is fully in their legal right, but honestly very bad customer service.

Agreed.

When the law can switch without warning, and players are deemed guilty without given proper information, you’re left with little options.

Most people assume exploiters are these devious players with long mustaches that systematically test the system like the Raptors in Jurassic Park, but in reality a lot of players are likely playing the game and assuming its meant to be that way.

I’ve argued before that in a complex, fantasy setting, players are bombarded with conflicting and inconsistent information all the time. Depending on a players experience level with the game, or the genre in general, it can greatly influence their ability to recognize something out of place.

The problem is when these players are lumped in with those few who are actively trying to circumvent the system.

Until players, and game companies start to understand that players have a vested interest in seeing games succeed, they will start being open and honest about what isn’t supposed to happen in game.

I don’t want to exploit. I want to have a long and fun experience with this MMO, but ANet doesn’t give me the tools I need to make informed choices. They leave it in my best judgment to decide what is, or isn’t an exploit, then reserve the right to tell me my uninformed choice was the wrong one.

And my punishment for making an uninformed choice? Suspension or lifetime ban.

Oh please! Are you really saying that someone who comes along, looks at a vendor, sees ten of one type of thing for 2 gold and sees 1 of the same thing for 2 s, doesn’t know that there’s an error somewhere?

Okay let’s say you bought the thing for 2 silver. That doesn’t earn you a ban. But if you bought 500 of them and used the mystic forge to get better stuff, which they you then listed on the trading post…obviously that’s a bug in the game, or typo.

Those who bought a dozen of them weren’t banned. Only the worst offenders are banned, and if they know exactly what they’re doing.

Add to the mix that people who sent in mails to support had their accounts unbanned as long as they agreed to a roll back.

Because mmorpg developers make player kill 1000000 rats before player can kill a dragon.

Colin Johanson
“Most MMOs these days make you grind and do really repetitive, boring content over and over again. There are moments of fun, but then you’re back swinging your sword over and over again, chasing around a moth or an ogre that’s standing around in the world doing nothing. That’s the part of the genre we think players are done with. We want to make something that’s better than that.”

laokoko.7403:

Because mmorpg developers make player kill 1000000 rats before player can kill a dragon.

Colin Johanson
“Most MMOs these days make you grind and do really repetitive, boring content over and over again. There are moments of fun, but then you’re back swinging your sword over and over again, chasing around a moth or an ogre that’s standing around in the world doing nothing. That’s the part of the genre we think players are done with. We want to make something that’s better than that.”

You in the right thread?

Because like in real life they think they wouldn’t be caught or the profit is worth the risk.

Vayne.8563:

Oh please! Are you really saying that someone who comes along, looks at a vendor, sees ten of one type of thing for 2 gold and sees 1 of the same thing for 2 s, doesn’t know that there’s an error somewhere?

Okay let’s say you bought the thing for 2 silver. That doesn’t earn you a ban. But if you bought 500 of them and used the mystic forge to get better stuff, which they you then listed on the trading post…obviously that’s a bug in the game, or typo.

Those who bought a dozen of them weren’t banned. Only the worst offenders are banned, and if they know exactly what they’re doing.

Add to the mix that people who sent in mails to support had their accounts unbanned as long as they agreed to a roll back.

We can argue specific examples, but its pointless. What we need to remember is the following:

1. MMOs are complex

2. Not everyone has the same experience with specific game mechanics, or MMOs

3. No information is provided by ANet, leaving it in the players hands to decide what is, and isn’t an exploit

4. Not everyone wants to exploit, and many don’t want to get banned

5. Not everything is black and white.

Vayne.8563:

Oh please! Are you really saying that someone who comes along, looks at a vendor, sees ten of one type of thing for 2 gold and sees 1 of the same thing for 2 s, doesn’t know that there’s an error somewhere?

Okay let’s say you bought the thing for 2 silver. That doesn’t earn you a ban. But if you bought 500 of them and used the mystic forge to get better stuff, which they you then listed on the trading post…obviously that’s a bug in the game, or typo.

Those who bought a dozen of them weren’t banned. Only the worst offenders are banned, and if they know exactly what they’re doing.

Add to the mix that people who sent in mails to support had their accounts unbanned as long as they agreed to a roll back.

If you do some research on that particular event, you would find some amusing things. That’s all I’m going to say about it.

Here is a question for those who claim exploiting is obvious to spot.

You’re running along and notice a group of 20 rats in some cave. You realize that if you stick around and stomp a few, you can quickly get your daily, and lifetime indiscriminate achievements.

Is this an exploit, or part of the game? Why?

If you were banned a few days later for an exploit, yet were never told what the exploit was, would you assume it was due to the rats, or something else?

Vayne.8563:

laokoko.7403:

Because mmorpg developers make player kill 1000000 rats before player can kill a dragon.

Colin Johanson
“Most MMOs these days make you grind and do really repetitive, boring content over and over again. There are moments of fun, but then you’re back swinging your sword over and over again, chasing around a moth or an ogre that’s standing around in the world doing nothing. That’s the part of the genre we think players are done with. We want to make something that’s better than that.”

You in the right thread?

The OP did talk about botting. I’m trying to let people understand why people bot.

Because we need to do many boring things over and over untill we can have fun. So we bot and exploit to bypass those boring content.

And if the game is actaully fun, I’ll just be playing instead of trying to stomp 20 rats for my daily and lifetime indiscrimate achievement the guy above me talking about.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Here is a question for those who claim exploiting is obvious to spot.

You’re running along and notice a group of 20 rats in some cave. You realize that if you stick around and stomp a few, you can quickly get your daily, and lifetime indiscriminate achievements.

Is this an exploit, or part of the game? Why?

If you were banned a few days later for an exploit, yet were never told what the exploit was, would you assume it was due to the rats, or something else?

I’ve never seen Anet ban people for an exploit that doesn’t affect the in game economy or direct competition such as PvP or WvW. Plenty of people stop rats in caves for their daily and their achievement.

Do you know someone banned for this? I certainly haven’t heard of anyone.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Vayne.8563:

Oh please! Are you really saying that someone who comes along, looks at a vendor, sees ten of one type of thing for 2 gold and sees 1 of the same thing for 2 s, doesn’t know that there’s an error somewhere?

Okay let’s say you bought the thing for 2 silver. That doesn’t earn you a ban. But if you bought 500 of them and used the mystic forge to get better stuff, which they you then listed on the trading post…obviously that’s a bug in the game, or typo.

Those who bought a dozen of them weren’t banned. Only the worst offenders are banned, and if they know exactly what they’re doing.

Add to the mix that people who sent in mails to support had their accounts unbanned as long as they agreed to a roll back.

We can argue specific examples, but its pointless. What we need to remember is the following:

1. MMOs are complex

2. Not everyone has the same experience with specific game mechanics, or MMOs

3. No information is provided by ANet, leaving it in the players hands to decide what is, and isn’t an exploit

4. Not everyone wants to exploit, and many don’t want to get banned

5. Not everything is black and white.

All five of your points are true. They also don’t change these facts.

1. Every MMO out there takes exploting seriously and none of them talk about it for very obvious reasons. No reason to give people ideas about other types of exploits.

2. Leaving exploiting unpunished is bad for the game. It encourages people to try and say they didn’t know. It has in other games in the past completely destroyed in game economies and caused inflation problems to the point where honest players couldn’t play the game at all.

3. If someone really did something accidentally a bit, I’ve seen no evidence that Anet has perma-banned them. People are perma-banned for SERIOUSLY exploiting. Will the occasional person be unfairly banned. Maybe. Without those bans, could the entire game economy be ruined for everyone. Sure. Given that situation, I’d feel bad for the person wrongly banned but I’d still think the company is doing the right thing.

4. Anet has set the bar for what an exploit is pretty kitten high. Plenty of people exploited a bit and didn’t get banned. You’re making it sound like OMG all these poor innocent people got banned. Ever walk into a prison? Everyone didn’t do it. What are the odds?

In general, keeping people from exploiting is a positive thing for an MMO to do, not a negative thing.

Vayne.8563:

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Here is a question for those who claim exploiting is obvious to spot.

You’re running along and notice a group of 20 rats in some cave. You realize that if you stick around and stomp a few, you can quickly get your daily, and lifetime indiscriminate achievements.

Is this an exploit, or part of the game? Why?

If you were banned a few days later for an exploit, yet were never told what the exploit was, would you assume it was due to the rats, or something else?

I’ve never seen Anet ban people for an exploit that doesn’t affect the in game economy or direct competition such as PvP or WvW. Plenty of people stop rats in caves for their daily and their achievement.

Do you know someone banned for this? I certainly haven’t heard of anyone.

I didn’t ask if anyone has ever seen anyone banned for this. I asked if you would consider this an exploit or not?

Please give it another read and let me know what you think.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Vayne.8563:

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Here is a question for those who claim exploiting is obvious to spot.

You’re running along and notice a group of 20 rats in some cave. You realize that if you stick around and stomp a few, you can quickly get your daily, and lifetime indiscriminate achievements.

Is this an exploit, or part of the game? Why?

If you were banned a few days later for an exploit, yet were never told what the exploit was, would you assume it was due to the rats, or something else?

I’ve never seen Anet ban people for an exploit that doesn’t affect the in game economy or direct competition such as PvP or WvW. Plenty of people stop rats in caves for their daily and their achievement.

Do you know someone banned for this? I certainly haven’t heard of anyone.

I didn’t ask if anyone has ever seen anyone banned for this. I asked if you would consider this an exploit or not?

Please give it another read and let me know what you think.

If I were stomping on rats in a cave, I wouldn’t think of it as an exploit, because there are rats in a cave. However, I also know that doing what I’m doing, whether an exploit or not, isn’t hurting anyone. Furthermore this example is self-limiting. Once you get your achievement, you get no more advantage to continuing to do it.

But if I went into a cave, started stomping rats and they kept dropping gold items, yes, I’d know that was an exploit and I’d stop and report it.

Vayne.8563:

All five of your points are true. They also don’t change these facts.

1. Every MMO out there takes exploting seriously and none of them talk about it for very obvious reasons. No reason to give people ideas about other types of exploits.

I never implied that they don’t, or shouldn’t be taken seriously. I said MMO’s are complex. Complexity means it can be harder for people to understand every detail.

Vayne.8563:

2. Leaving exploiting unpunished is bad for the game. It encourages people to try and say they didn’t know. It has in other games in the past completely destroyed in game economies and caused inflation problems to the point where honest players couldn’t play the game at all.

Who said anything about not punishing exploits? I said that all players have different levels of experience. So if the policy is to leave it in the individual players hands to determine what is an exploit, you have to accept that all players may have a different standard or example of what they believe is an exploit.

Vayne.8563:

3. If someone really did something accidentally a bit, I’ve seen no evidence that Anet has perma-banned them. People are perma-banned for SERIOUSLY exploiting. Will the occasional person be unfairly banned. Maybe. Without those bans, could the entire game economy be ruined for everyone. Sure. Given that situation, I’d feel bad for the person wrongly banned but I’d still think the company is doing the right thing.

I see, so you feel that innocent players being banned without reason or by mistake is reasonable collateral damage?

Vayne.8563:

4. Anet has set the bar for what an exploit is pretty kitten high. Plenty of people exploited a bit and didn’t get banned. You’re making it sound like OMG all these poor innocent people got banned. Ever walk into a prison? Everyone didn’t do it. What are the odds?

So you’re saying they’re all guilty? They MUST have done something wrong if they’re banned despite them claiming to be totally oblivious as to why?

Vayne.8563:

In general, keeping people from exploiting is a positive thing for an MMO to do, not a negative thing.

Agreed. Who claimed otherwise?

The tone of your continual posts about exploits, not the first one, seems to say that you think Anet is being particularly unfair. Since they’re following what has become the industry standard in procedure, Anet is not being more unfair than any other company.

And yes, if a single person gets banned wrongly but it saves the games economy so a few hundred thousand people aren’t hurt, yeah, I’d say that’s acceptable collateral damage. This is a game, not someone’s livelihood. If it’s a borderline case and they contact support it probably wouldn’t be perma-banned anyway, unless they REALLY exploited it. And if they did, yeah it’s a lesson learned.

If everyone one of my life’s lessons learned was being banned from a game I’d be a happy, happy man.

Vayne.8563:

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Vayne.8563:

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Here is a question for those who claim exploiting is obvious to spot.

You’re running along and notice a group of 20 rats in some cave. You realize that if you stick around and stomp a few, you can quickly get your daily, and lifetime indiscriminate achievements.

Is this an exploit, or part of the game? Why?

If you were banned a few days later for an exploit, yet were never told what the exploit was, would you assume it was due to the rats, or something else?

I’ve never seen Anet ban people for an exploit that doesn’t affect the in game economy or direct competition such as PvP or WvW. Plenty of people stop rats in caves for their daily and their achievement.

Do you know someone banned for this? I certainly haven’t heard of anyone.

I didn’t ask if anyone has ever seen anyone banned for this. I asked if you would consider this an exploit or not?

Please give it another read and let me know what you think.

If I were stomping on rats in a cave, I wouldn’t think of it as an exploit, because there are rats in a cave. However, I also know that doing what I’m doing, whether an exploit or not, isn’t hurting anyone. Furthermore this example is self-limiting. Once you get your achievement, you get no more advantage to continuing to do it.

But if I went into a cave, started stomping rats and they kept dropping gold items, yes, I’d know that was an exploit and I’d stop and report it.

Interesting.

So based on your personal experience in the game, you wouldn’t consider this an exploit. And furthermore, you’re convinced it’s not an exploit because you can’t exploit it indefinitely.

See how easy it is for you to brush off and justify actions because it fits with what you feel is reasonable? See how you had to exaggerate the example to make sure it was black and white enough for your own personal line?

Vayne.8563:

The tone of your continual posts about exploits, not the first one, seems to say that you think Anet is being particularly unfair. Since they’re following what has become the industry standard in procedure, Anet is not being more unfair than any other company.

And yes, if a single person gets banned wrongly but it saves the games economy so a few hundred thousand people aren’t hurt, yeah, I’d say that’s acceptable collateral damage. This is a game, not someone’s livelihood. If it’s a borderline case and they contact support it probably wouldn’t be perma-banned anyway, unless they REALLY exploited it. And if they did, yeah it’s a lesson learned.

If everyone one of my life’s lessons learned was being banned from a game I’d be a happy, happy man.

So you’re saying that because it’s industry standard, it means it’s the best system?

I’m simply saying, as a player, I want the tools to be able to protect myself from account ban. I don’t want to exploit at all, but I have nothing available to be able to determine what is, or isn’t an exploit. I am left to determine that myself, and only once I’m banned might I be able to deduce what I did.

However, because ANet won’t release details about exploits, you’re left banned, accused, convicted, and never knowing why.

Also, I’m concerned that you’re ok with innocent players who payed hard earned money getting banned.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Vayne.8563:

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Vayne.8563:

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Here is a question for those who claim exploiting is obvious to spot.

You’re running along and notice a group of 20 rats in some cave. You realize that if you stick around and stomp a few, you can quickly get your daily, and lifetime indiscriminate achievements.

Is this an exploit, or part of the game? Why?

If you were banned a few days later for an exploit, yet were never told what the exploit was, would you assume it was due to the rats, or something else?

I’ve never seen Anet ban people for an exploit that doesn’t affect the in game economy or direct competition such as PvP or WvW. Plenty of people stop rats in caves for their daily and their achievement.

Do you know someone banned for this? I certainly haven’t heard of anyone.

I didn’t ask if anyone has ever seen anyone banned for this. I asked if you would consider this an exploit or not?

Please give it another read and let me know what you think.

If I were stomping on rats in a cave, I wouldn’t think of it as an exploit, because there are rats in a cave. However, I also know that doing what I’m doing, whether an exploit or not, isn’t hurting anyone. Furthermore this example is self-limiting. Once you get your achievement, you get no more advantage to continuing to do it.

But if I went into a cave, started stomping rats and they kept dropping gold items, yes, I’d know that was an exploit and I’d stop and report it.

Interesting.

So based on your personal experience in the game, you wouldn’t consider this an exploit. And furthermore, you’re convinced it’s not an exploit because you can’t exploit it indefinitely.

See how easy it is for you to brush off and justify actions because it fits with what you feel is reasonable? See how you had to exaggerate the example to make sure it was black and white enough for your own personal line?

My personal experience says no one would be hurt by my doing it, which is something I’d definitely filter an exploit for. Since it couldn’t hurt anyone else, it’s probably fair to do. When it could affect other people, I start thinking in terms of exploits.

Vayne.8563:

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

You’re running along and notice a group of 20 rats in some cave. You realize that if you stick around and stomp a few, you can quickly get your daily, and lifetime indiscriminate achievements.

Is this an exploit, or part of the game? Why?

If I were stomping on rats in a cave, I wouldn’t think of it as an exploit, because there are rats in a cave. However, I also know that doing what I’m doing, whether an exploit or not, isn’t hurting anyone. Furthermore this example is self-limiting. Once you get your achievement, you get no more advantage to continuing to do it.

The same criteria applied to the drinking of overly-available wine, and that one turned out to be a ticket to banland.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Vayne.8563:

The tone of your continual posts about exploits, not the first one, seems to say that you think Anet is being particularly unfair. Since they’re following what has become the industry standard in procedure, Anet is not being more unfair than any other company.

And yes, if a single person gets banned wrongly but it saves the games economy so a few hundred thousand people aren’t hurt, yeah, I’d say that’s acceptable collateral damage. This is a game, not someone’s livelihood. If it’s a borderline case and they contact support it probably wouldn’t be perma-banned anyway, unless they REALLY exploited it. And if they did, yeah it’s a lesson learned.

If everyone one of my life’s lessons learned was being banned from a game I’d be a happy, happy man.

So you’re saying that because it’s industry standard, it means it’s the best system?

I’m simply saying, as a player, I want the tools to be able to protect myself from account ban. I don’t want to exploit at all, but I have nothing available to be able to determine what is, or isn’t an exploit. I am left to determine that myself, and only once I’m banned might I be able to deduce what I did.

However, because ANet won’t release details about exploits, you’re left banned, accused, convicted, and never knowing why.

Also, I’m concerned that you’re ok with innocent players who payed hard earned money getting banned.

I’m not okay with innocent players paying hard earned money to getting banned. I said it was acceptable collateral damage, considering the fact that in the past exploits of destroyed entire games. So if a few dozen people get hurt by that, and let’s put this into perspective, they’ve lost a couple of bucks, it’s not life threatening, it’s better than 3 million people who bought the game having the game rug jerked out from under them. Not that I’m not sympathetic to the few who are wrongly banned, but it really is a lesson.

Basically if you have to ask the question,. just don’t do it. It’s that simple. And whether this policy is best practice or not, it’s surely at this point the only practice I’ve seen. I know you’ve suggested other things in your umpteeth threads on this topic, and I can see you’re obsessing over it, but you know, it’s really not that hard.

Pixelpumpkin.4608:

Vayne.8563:

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

You’re running along and notice a group of 20 rats in some cave. You realize that if you stick around and stomp a few, you can quickly get your daily, and lifetime indiscriminate achievements.

Is this an exploit, or part of the game? Why?

If I were stomping on rats in a cave, I wouldn’t think of it as an exploit, because there are rats in a cave. However, I also know that doing what I’m doing, whether an exploit or not, isn’t hurting anyone. Furthermore this example is self-limiting. Once you get your achievement, you get no more advantage to continuing to do it.

The same criteria applied to the drinking of overly-available wine, and that one turned out to be a ticket to banland.

The difference is that merchants sell wine. I know it’s not freely available. Rats are everywhere. If I kill rats, I kill rats.

The wine thing is something I would have seen as an exploit, because it’s obvious to me anyway, what you needed to do to get the drinking title. I’ve bought and drank drinks. Now if I found a way to do that completely free, when I know I’m supposed to buy it, sure, I’d have thought that was an exploit.

As opposed to rats which are always free to kill, in which I’m not doing anything out of the ordinary.

Vayne.8563:

My personal experience says no one would be hurt by my doing it, which is something I’d definitely filter an exploit for. Since it couldn’t hurt anyone else, it’s probably fair to do. When it could affect other people, I start thinking in terms of exploits.

So you wouldn’t consider it an exploit because no one got hurt? Yet, ANet just plugged an exploit that allowed players to gain “Thirst Slayer” by using a bugged bottle.

So, since we’ve established that, “not hurting anyone” isn’t valid criteria for describing an exploit, would killing 20 rats in a group be one? Is this part of the game, or a bug?

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Vayne.8563:

My personal experience says no one would be hurt by my doing it, which is something I’d definitely filter an exploit for. Since it couldn’t hurt anyone else, it’s probably fair to do. When it could affect other people, I start thinking in terms of exploits.

So you wouldn’t consider it an exploit because no one got hurt? Yet, ANet just plugged an exploit that allowed players to gain “Thirst Slayer” by using a bugged bottle.

So, since we’ve established that, “not hurting anyone” isn’t valid criteria for describing an exploit, would killing 20 rats in a group be one? Is this part of the game, or a bug?

Okay first, if I saw 20 rats in a cave and I killed them, I wouldn’t stay around and keep killing them. That’s just silly. There’s no rush to get indiscrimant slayer, this stuff is everywhere. You’ll get it anyway.

The alcohol in the game is not freely available to everyone. You had to be on a certain path. Alcohol is sold. I certainly knew not to exploit the alcohol one. Other people did too.

And it still seems to me that people that didn’t exploit it hard core could probably send an email to support and get their accounts back. Those that sat and repeated an instance over and over without finishing it, how could they NOT know they were exploiting?

I should mention, I don’t particularly agree with the ban for the alcohol title exploit anyway…but you have to be pretty naive to not see it’s an exploit.

Vayne.8563:

The difference is that merchants sell wine. I know it’s not freely available. Rats are everywhere. If I kill rats, I kill rats.

“Elixir of heroes” bottles spawn in the environment, same as rats. This used to include the special bottles that were later removed. So I don’t know, I think it really isn’t as straightforward as you want it to be. (Sadly. I wish it was.)

Perma banning players for developer bugs is a bit ridiculous. I understand that some things are clear exploits, but most aren’t.

Vayne.8563:

I should mention, I don’t particularly agree with the ban for the alcohol title exploit anyway…but you have to be pretty naive to not see it’s an exploit.

Im not really sure what this discussion is about. Was there a ban for that alcohol thing to get the achievement? I seen a video of it somewhere, don’t you have to do a quest that takes a short amount of time just to get one drink? I mean, if thats what this is about, then good luck to the people who did it. I really don’t care if they did it, especially considering it would be time consuming. Just because I have to go buy drinks with karma or coin to get my achievement, I really don’t care.

Why not? I remember my friend buying like 40 T3 Norn armor pieces for like 1k karma when game launched (BUG). Too bad I didn’t have any karma back then.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/What-exactly-is-an-exploit/first#post1461565

Nice rule of thumb there.

Using exploits is just bad for several reasons in my book. Some of them being: it screws over the economy. It makes the general playerbase less skilled as they can cheapening content and never having to learn it properly. Seen it way to often people can’t do the content without exploiting.

sostronk.8167:

Im not really sure what this discussion is about. Was there a ban for that alcohol thing to get the achievement? I seen a video of it somewhere, don’t you have to do a quest that takes a short amount of time just to get one drink? I mean, if thats what this is about, then good luck to the people who did it. I really don’t care if they did it, especially considering it would be time consuming. Just because I have to go buy drinks with karma or coin to get my achievement, I really don’t care.

There was a bottle in an instance that gave you unlimited drinks.
There used to be more of them, but they were removed from the maps, but when that instance was released, someone apparently put the wrong item into it (special bottle instead of regular elixir of heroes).

The normal bottles that give you only 1 drink per bottle are still in the environment and, to my knowledge, ok to drink.

Right so if all the bottle behave one way but one bottle behaves completely differently and you keep drinking it for like an hour till you max out a title, how can you possibly not know that’s an exploit?

awe extender.1908:

I know that hacked accounts are used to run bots and exploits, but I simply don’t understand why some (regular) players risk their own account by doing exploits?

Anet can easily track your moves and hits really hard with no mercy (perma bann), which I strongly support. We all remember the snow-flake bann avalanche.

But why risk a perma bann for an account that you have invested hundreds of fun playing hours?
If you are going to ask why people do something you need to define the something.

What do you consider an exploit in Guild Wars 2?

Ps. Don’t exploit! The Unmerciful Hammer of Bann hits hard!

If you are going to ask about something that doesn’t have a common definition you need to define that something.

What do you consider to be an exploit in Guild Wars 2?

I think everyone running CoF path 1 over and over again is exploiting. they should all be banned.

Vayne.8563:

Right so if all the bottle behave one way but one bottle behaves completely differently and you keep drinking it for like an hour till you max out a title, how can you possibly not know that’s an exploit?

These bottles used to lia around in regular maps, too – I remember finding them occasionally. I only know that they were removed from the game because the whole thing blew up on the forums after Cragstead. Until then, I thought they were fine to drink, and I would still think so if I didn’t frequent the forums.

Incidentally, after finishing the instance for the first time I wandered around the Cragstead ruins admiring the map and finding the bottle, thinking it was placed there as a reward. While I didn’t go for the thirstslayer achievement, I wouldn’t have held it against other people if they did.

Same with items in the shop that are sold under value, especially early on in the game when players don’t have a “feel” for the economy yet. Again, I didn’t stumble across any of the underpriced karma (?) items but if I had, I would have bought them without a second thought.
(1. Please note that I am a teamplayer and have no intention to cheat my way into wealth or whatever. I’m just here to play the game, and casually at that.)
(2. People make mistakes, and shops underprice items by accident all the time. If legal (as for their own TOS) they then don’t deliver, so if you buy an iPad for $50 from Tescos and they end up canceling your order, that sucks (other shop had to honour their contracts and deliver); but what doesn’t happen in real life is that you purchase an iPad for $50 from Tesos and then get sent to prison because, well, you should have known better than to buy this iPad.)

I assume that there is exploits that are abused maliciously and repeatedly, but not all exploits are so black and white, and that makes me uncomfortable…

Here is the point I am trying to make.

First, I am in no way suggesting that exploits not be addressed. I think exploits hurt the game and the players.

Second, whenever a large group of people are given a vague set of rules/guidelines, every one of them will interpret those rules differently based on personal experience, morality standards, and emotion.

As we’ve seen with this hypothetical example (20 rats), we can go around for days arguing whether something is, or isn’t an exploit. On these forums, hypothetical situations don’t hurt anyone, but when a player is faced with a choice in game, it can be the difference between getting banned and having a long, fulfilling experience in-game.

The only way we can all know for sure, and make choices accordingly is for ANet to let us know.

Now, please hear what I’m saying.

I am not for a second saying that ANet should explain every detail of the exploit. I am saying that by informing the community that an exploit exists, and that anyone using it from this point on will be banned, we are all informed gamers.

Now, I know some of you will try and argue using slippery slope arguments, (Such as, “If they tell us, people will do it anyway out of curiosity.” or, “You’re just going to teach others how to find exploits.”), but these argument aren’t logical.

Exploits will happen regardless. Every time ANet updates, or adds to the game, someone will find a way to take advantage of a flaw. The people who do this knowingly and without regard should be banned. But for those of us who want to avoid bans, and continue playing, we need to be educated to avoid mistakes.

Imagine if the answer to the 20 Rats exploit was something like:

“We have determined that there is an exploit that allows players to gain the “indiscriminate Slayer” achievement by killing a bugged number of rats in the Trolls Cave. This will be fixed in the next patch. Any players using this exploit will risk permanent account termination."

If you have any questions or concerns, please submit a support ticket HERE."

See?! Easy right?

The guesswork is gone, the consequences are clear, ANet is fair and honest, players are educated and can now make informed choices, and bans are avoided.

Okay let’s say you’re right. Anet makes an annoucement. Some people read it, some people don’t.

A bunch of guys who love to grief people tell other people about it, just to see them gt banned. You can’t say that wouldn’t happen, because it can. There are always people out there ready to do stuff to kitten other people off.

I can see where you’re coming from (and it’s not the first time you’ve made the argument), but I don’t see it being implemented. The potential for griefing alone at that point is pretty big.

Vayne.8563:

Okay let’s say you’re right. Anet makes an annoucement. Some people read it, some people don’t.

A bunch of guys who love to grief people tell other people about it, just to see them gt banned. You can’t say that wouldn’t happen, because it can. There are always people out there ready to do stuff to kitten other people off.

I can see where you’re coming from (and it’s not the first time you’ve made the argument), but I don’t see it being implemented. The potential for griefing alone at that point is pretty big.

It’s sorta amazing you chose that as an example. Did you research about the exploit that occurred when one of the vendors was selling cheap karma weapons?

Where is this cave of rats?

Vayne.8563:

Okay let’s say you’re right. Anet makes an annoucement. Some people read it, some people don’t.

A bunch of guys who love to grief people tell other people about it, just to see them gt banned. You can’t say that wouldn’t happen, because it can. There are always people out there ready to do stuff to kitten other people off.

I can see where you’re coming from (and it’s not the first time you’ve made the argument), but I don’t see it being implemented. The potential for griefing alone at that point is pretty big.

You’re absolutely right!

If not all players are informed, then it opens the door for abuse. However, if you’ve seen my argument before, you also know that my solution was simple.

Player logs in, a screen pops up with the announcement (justified annoyance factor in this case as consequences are high), and the player must press, “OK” to continue.

If players choose to skip the text and press “OK” then that is their choice, however it guarantees all players will see the official message. No forum posts, no Twitter, no Facebook…right on the main login screen overtop your character. You can’t do anything else without closing the dialogue box.

Theoldman.6483:

Where is this cave of rats?

In my mind.