Guild Wars 2

@Vayne

The tequatl example has as much downsides as upsides. Like you said , it’s not always there, but what if I want to defeat it? Maybe I even gotta wait hours for him to appear. If Tequatl were to added to GW1 I could kill him whenever I want, but this is also true for Scarlet.

And I never said I have problem with DEs and not seeing the same thing twice when I enter a zone. My problem is their highest priority is the story in a world which isn’t the best to tell it(And they had a better system to tell it). And it is not unreasonable for me to assume, they created a new world which isn’t better for storytelling than the previous just to have their top focus in this world as the living story.

shawn.1298:

Draknar.5748:

shawn.1298:

For me it didn’t work because of the gem store or what the gem store causes. The economy in GW2 is anemic because of the gem store. Drops are anemic because of the gem store. Fun is anemic because of the gem store. So I went back to WoW. Started off on a new server with brand new level ones and am having a kick scavenging and creating wealth. Its so much nicer playing a game with a robust economy. The only reason I’m writing this and not playing is because of Tuesday maintenance But seriously, this is not to put the game down. The reason I left is because the economy is non existent in GW2 and I’m pretty sure that’s a side effect of the gem store.

Fun is anemic because of the gem store?

Someone reeeeeaaally hates the gem store.

Is your issue that you can exchange gems for gold? Surely your problem can’t be with the mini-pets, cosmetic items, boosters, mining picks, etc. There’s really no logical explanation as to why those items would make your fun “anemic”. That I can fathom anyway.

Will I sure didn’t mean to rouse the locals Its a personal opinion. I like looting shiny things that can be actually sold to people that actually want them. I like building wealth from scratch and opening auction house posts that say my 20 copper bars sold for 18 gold. I think the other game lends itself more to what I like to do, so I play that one. Its a personal preference, not a frothing hatred

Ha, I know what you mean, but I’m curious why you feel you can’t do that in GW2. Every day I log in I run to TP to collect my 5-10g from the loot/mats I got from running fotm/dungeons/wvw/exploration. Ectos, T5-T6 mats, rare gear, exotic gear, various ores/wood. I know a lot of people save up these things to use, but if your aim is strictly money, then sell everything you pick up, and that means collectibles you would normally just deposit.

People don’t realize just how much money they can actually make off of that stuff. They just let it pile up in their bank.

But play what makes you happy, that’s what I always say.

Scipio.3204:

@Vayne

The tequatl example has as much downsides as upsides. Like you said , it’s not always there, but what if I want to defeat it? Maybe I even gotta wait hours for him to appear. If Tequatl were to added to GW1 I could kill him whenever I want, but this is also true for Scarlet.

And I never said I have problem with DEs and not seeing the same thing twice when I enter a zone. My problem is their highest priority is the story in a world which isn’t the best to tell it(And they had a better system to tell it). And it is not unreasonable for me to assume, they created a new world which isn’t better for storytelling than the previous just to have their top focus in this world as the living story.

Well, there IS a schedule for Tequatl. But if you want a truly living world, you have to trade something for it. One of the things you trade is predictability. If you want predictability play a game that’s always exactly the same, there are plenty of them.

But Anet has said from day 1, before even, their goal is to produce a living breathing world and that has to include some level of unpredictability. We knew before launch that events would ping pong along time lines, but we also knew we could intersect that event at any time and we knew some events even interacted with each other.

Having a world that’s not instanced, means other people can enter it and that creates unpredictability too. Someone triggers an event, or doesn’t changes what’s happening. I’ve been on death’s door, ready to be defeated, when a complete stranger pops up and helps me win. Try that with an instanced lobby based game. It can’t happen. It’s a random element.

Unfortunately, for better or for worse, the public has embraced open worlds, as opposed to instanced content. It’s what makes MMOs MMOs. That’s why Guild Wars 1 wasn’t an MMO and Guild Wars 2 is. The existence of a persistent world. A world that isn’t created when you leave the city. The other day I watched an NPC finish an event for me. I thought that was awesome.

Story telling does suffer, which is why most MMOs have lousy stories. And the ones that have good stories can only tell them through instances, where the world itself isn’t part of it. It’s part and parcel of having an MMO.

Anet wanted to make an MMO, and there’s no way to do it while instancing everything.

hendo.1940:

Anet and their (un)paid shills…

Forum trolls and their lack of anything to say other than trying to derail threads…

If you don’t have anything constructive to say about the topic, for or against, then move on. Those trying to discuss intelligently do not need your derision.

The game as I see it is working fine. That being said, I find even the new content becoming stale. It just doesn’t make me want to keep playing.

The new collections are fine, but other than grinding for items to complete them, we are still left with the same content.

I just don’t find anything to capture my attention much anymore. I’ve played about everything in this game that you can do (with the exception of sPvP) and have enjoyed it. Now however, I find myself not caring about logging in, even to do dailies.

I just believe that something more than the LS has to be interjected to hold my interest.

Nerelith.7360:

Boneheart.3561:

Nerelith.7360:

Boneheart.3561:

Nerelith.7360:

MikaHR.1978:

P2W is self explanatory.

That means you don’t know the definition.

I don’t think you want a “definition”, but rather an explanation of what’s Pay-to-Win in ArchAge.

What you’ve typed here just seems like an attack, it’s the herald of a discussion devolving into a fight (the kind where no one convinces the other party to their side (fully or partially) or admits they were wrong (without explaining they weren’t actually wrong), and it’s just a self-serving document of how right they are).

You are free to think what you wish. I cannot correct your thinking. he calls Archeage P2w. I explain that it is not, by using a commonly accepted definition.

Now while anyone can " explain how Archeage is pay2win" for it to have meaning one needs to first work on a definition for pay2win, that everyone can accept.

I offered a definiton everyone agrees on. You and the previous Poster just say " oh we all know it’s pay2win, and can explain how."

The thing is. Either something IS pay2win, or it is not.

But to do so, first you need to provide a definition for pay2win. Neither you, nor the previous poster have.

I have.

Then you say that this will devolve into some kind of fight. Why?

Because I try to use Logic, and knowledge, define the terms being discussed?

I can see that someone that does not understand what pay2win really is, might not wish to engage.

Either way, you ans the previous Poster have demonstrated that all you kno about AA is what you have accepted because of Confirmation Bias. That and a few reddit posts..

" labor points"

Let me clue you in… if Labor Points and potions, makes Aecheage Pay2win. Then Experience Boosters, crafting experience boosters, keys sold in cash shop to open Bliack Lion Chests…etc… anything NOT a cosmetic Item on the BLTP..makes Gw2 …pay2win.

I couldn’t find your definition for Pay-to-Win, would you link it, please?

Also I haven’t typed anything about ArchAge.

This definition was actually linked by someone that said AA was pay2win. he tried to use this definition to prove it.

When I explained that if you actually break down the definition of pay2win, and try to apply it to AA , AA is not pay2 win. BUT, the ONLY way that you can warp and twist, and Loosen the definition of pay2win, so that Archeage fits that definition, it can also be warped, twisted and Loosened to Gw2 does as well.

many interpret Pay2win as simply " purchasing advantage with cash." Under that definition One can say that a crafting exp booster can " lead to pay2win since it means a character can max his crafting abilities sooner than someone that doesn’t use cash" which is what people that TRY to use " The AA labor potions" as pay2win.

If that is pay2win, so is buying a crafting xp booster. That you can subsequently buy on the cash shop.

here’s the definition the guy used. Until I showed that AA doesn’t meet the criteria, then he backpedaled and said.." well forget that definition"

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win

“Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.”

PS: I only post the definition so you see I didn’t Pull it out of my rear end. And explain how i even became aware of it. it was posted by someone trying badly, and failing to explain How AA is pay2win, with that definition.

It is not my intention to respark the debate, since that is derailing the thread.

This is My last post on this thread about AA or Pay2win.

How convenient, your last post on ArchAge without explaining Labor Points.

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

@Vayne

The tequatl example has as much downsides as upsides. Like you said , it’s not always there, but what if I want to defeat it? Maybe I even gotta wait hours for him to appear. If Tequatl were to added to GW1 I could kill him whenever I want, but this is also true for Scarlet.

And I never said I have problem with DEs and not seeing the same thing twice when I enter a zone. My problem is their highest priority is the story in a world which isn’t the best to tell it(And they had a better system to tell it). And it is not unreasonable for me to assume, they created a new world which isn’t better for storytelling than the previous just to have their top focus in this world as the living story.

Well, there IS a schedule for Tequatl. But if you want a truly living world, you have to trade something for it. One of the things you trade is predictability. If you want predictability play a game that’s always exactly the same, there are plenty of them.

But Anet has said from day 1, before even, their goal is to produce a living breathing world and that has to include some level of unpredictability. We knew before launch that events would ping pong along time lines, but we also knew we could intersect that event at any time and we knew some events even interacted with each other.

Having a world that’s not instanced, means other people can enter it and that creates unpredictability too. Someone triggers an event, or doesn’t changes what’s happening. I’ve been on death’s door, ready to be defeated, when a complete stranger pops up and helps me win. Try that with an instanced lobby based game. It can’t happen. It’s a random element.

Unfortunately, for better or for worse, the public has embraced open worlds, as opposed to instanced content. It’s what makes MMOs MMOs. That’s why Guild Wars 1 wasn’t an MMO and Guild Wars 2 is. The existence of a persistent world. A world that isn’t created when you leave the city. The other day I watched an NPC finish an event for me. I thought that was awesome.

Story telling does suffer, which is why most MMOs have lousy stories. And the ones that have good stories can only tell them through instances, where the world itself isn’t part of it. It’s part and parcel of having an MMO.

Anet wanted to make an MMO, and there’s no way to do it while instancing everything.

Yet season 2 is 90% instanced and if they want to continue to tell a decent story, they have to stick to instances and ignore everything in open world, or maybe even worse, make changes to open world and confuse everyone who isn’t at that part of the story.
Like I said, my problem is not with the open world , but that their highest priority is something that’s not an open world material.

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

@Vayne

The tequatl example has as much downsides as upsides. Like you said , it’s not always there, but what if I want to defeat it? Maybe I even gotta wait hours for him to appear. If Tequatl were to added to GW1 I could kill him whenever I want, but this is also true for Scarlet.

And I never said I have problem with DEs and not seeing the same thing twice when I enter a zone. My problem is their highest priority is the story in a world which isn’t the best to tell it(And they had a better system to tell it). And it is not unreasonable for me to assume, they created a new world which isn’t better for storytelling than the previous just to have their top focus in this world as the living story.

Well, there IS a schedule for Tequatl. But if you want a truly living world, you have to trade something for it. One of the things you trade is predictability. If you want predictability play a game that’s always exactly the same, there are plenty of them.

But Anet has said from day 1, before even, their goal is to produce a living breathing world and that has to include some level of unpredictability. We knew before launch that events would ping pong along time lines, but we also knew we could intersect that event at any time and we knew some events even interacted with each other.

Having a world that’s not instanced, means other people can enter it and that creates unpredictability too. Someone triggers an event, or doesn’t changes what’s happening. I’ve been on death’s door, ready to be defeated, when a complete stranger pops up and helps me win. Try that with an instanced lobby based game. It can’t happen. It’s a random element.

Unfortunately, for better or for worse, the public has embraced open worlds, as opposed to instanced content. It’s what makes MMOs MMOs. That’s why Guild Wars 1 wasn’t an MMO and Guild Wars 2 is. The existence of a persistent world. A world that isn’t created when you leave the city. The other day I watched an NPC finish an event for me. I thought that was awesome.

Story telling does suffer, which is why most MMOs have lousy stories. And the ones that have good stories can only tell them through instances, where the world itself isn’t part of it. It’s part and parcel of having an MMO.

Anet wanted to make an MMO, and there’s no way to do it while instancing everything.

Yet season 2 is 90% instanced and if they want to continue to tell a decent story, they have to stick to instances and ignore everything in open world, or maybe even worse, make changes to open world and confuse everyone who isn’t at that part of the story.
Like I said, my problem is not with the open world , but that their highest priority is something that’s not an open world material.

Have you played Season 2?

There is instanced content, being backed up by the zone. Dry Top is open world, not Season 2. But what’s happening in it is tied to the Living World instances.

The only real downside to it, is that it will probably be locked in time like Orr is. But it’s more effective for story telling than just instances.

The only part of LS2 that i would really call “living world” are the tendrils and destroyed
waypoints .. everything else in those instances for me still is simply something thats
like a parallel universe and not directly connected to the actual world.

So personally i still wished they had continued with temporarily stuff like in LS1
since that really had impact on the world. But i already feared that the whole
“repeatable” thing would end up with beeing just instanced content.

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Well, there IS a schedule for Tequatl. But if you want a truly living world, you have to trade something for it. One of the things you trade is predictability. If you want predictability play a game that’s always exactly the same, there are plenty of them.

But Anet has said from day 1, before even, their goal is to produce a living breathing world and that has to include some level of unpredictability. We knew before launch that events would ping pong along time lines, but we also knew we could intersect that event at any time and we knew some events even interacted with each other.

Having a world that’s not instanced, means other people can enter it and that creates unpredictability too. Someone triggers an event, or doesn’t changes what’s happening. I’ve been on death’s door, ready to be defeated, when a complete stranger pops up and helps me win. Try that with an instanced lobby based game. It can’t happen. It’s a random element.

Unfortunately, for better or for worse, the public has embraced open worlds, as opposed to instanced content. It’s what makes MMOs MMOs. That’s why Guild Wars 1 wasn’t an MMO and Guild Wars 2 is. The existence of a persistent world. A world that isn’t created when you leave the city. The other day I watched an NPC finish an event for me. I thought that was awesome.

Story telling does suffer, which is why most MMOs have lousy stories. And the ones that have good stories can only tell them through instances, where the world itself isn’t part of it. It’s part and parcel of having an MMO.

Anet wanted to make an MMO, and there’s no way to do it while instancing everything.

Yet season 2 is 90% instanced and if they want to continue to tell a decent story, they have to stick to instances and ignore everything in open world, or maybe even worse, make changes to open world and confuse everyone who isn’t at that part of the story.
Like I said, my problem is not with the open world , but that their highest priority is something that’s not an open world material.

Have you played Season 2?

There is instanced content, being backed up by the zone. Dry Top is open world, not Season 2. But what’s happening in it is tied to the Living World instances.

The only real downside to it, is that it will probably be locked in time like Orr is. But it’s more effective for story telling than just instances.

Yes, but if you look at new players, it will be confusing to see tybalt selling apples in a burned down city or having a meeting with the pact in a fort destroyed by mordremorth. And on the locked time thing: yes that’s a big downside too , they can continue to introduce new parts of a zone ,which is great, but if they change anything outside of newly released zones that won’t make sense for those who aren’t cathed up with the story. I wouldn’t call that a living world.

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Well, there IS a schedule for Tequatl. But if you want a truly living world, you have to trade something for it. One of the things you trade is predictability. If you want predictability play a game that’s always exactly the same, there are plenty of them.

But Anet has said from day 1, before even, their goal is to produce a living breathing world and that has to include some level of unpredictability. We knew before launch that events would ping pong along time lines, but we also knew we could intersect that event at any time and we knew some events even interacted with each other.

Having a world that’s not instanced, means other people can enter it and that creates unpredictability too. Someone triggers an event, or doesn’t changes what’s happening. I’ve been on death’s door, ready to be defeated, when a complete stranger pops up and helps me win. Try that with an instanced lobby based game. It can’t happen. It’s a random element.

Unfortunately, for better or for worse, the public has embraced open worlds, as opposed to instanced content. It’s what makes MMOs MMOs. That’s why Guild Wars 1 wasn’t an MMO and Guild Wars 2 is. The existence of a persistent world. A world that isn’t created when you leave the city. The other day I watched an NPC finish an event for me. I thought that was awesome.

Story telling does suffer, which is why most MMOs have lousy stories. And the ones that have good stories can only tell them through instances, where the world itself isn’t part of it. It’s part and parcel of having an MMO.

Anet wanted to make an MMO, and there’s no way to do it while instancing everything.

Yet season 2 is 90% instanced and if they want to continue to tell a decent story, they have to stick to instances and ignore everything in open world, or maybe even worse, make changes to open world and confuse everyone who isn’t at that part of the story.
Like I said, my problem is not with the open world , but that their highest priority is something that’s not an open world material.

Have you played Season 2?

There is instanced content, being backed up by the zone. Dry Top is open world, not Season 2. But what’s happening in it is tied to the Living World instances.

The only real downside to it, is that it will probably be locked in time like Orr is. But it’s more effective for story telling than just instances.

Yes, but if you look at new players, it will be confusing to see tybalt selling apples in a burned down city or having a meeting with the pact in a fort destroyed by mordremorth. And on the locked time thing: yes that’s a big downside too , they can continue to introduce new parts of a zone ,which is great, but if they change anything outside of newly released zones that won’t make sense for those who aren’t cathed up with the story. I wouldn’t call that a living world.

It’s living AND locked in time. That is to say, within that time frame it’s alive. It’s living because it evolves with the story as the story evolves. Orr feels quite alive to me. But it’s locked in time.

In you know, that was Guild Wars 1 too. Until they did War in Kryta, that game was completely self contained. Every time you did something, you entered the past. Abaddon was still alive no matter where you played in Nightfall, even up to this day.

Vayne.8563:

In you know, that was Guild Wars 1 too. Until they did War in Kryta, that game was completely self contained. Every time you did something, you entered the past. Abaddon was still alive no matter where you played in Nightfall, even up to this day.

Except Domain of Anguish.

KarlaGrey.5903:

At Galen, I’d play rabid nec, iirc, but the issue was I mostly rolled on greens/yellows a snip..

With a necro you cannot out dps a warrior passive regen using conditions?
I dont undestand how thats possible, I am not really much of a warrior person so maybe they have a build that has massive regen that I am not aware off but I tried building a necro with no armor on and it can stack 787 bleeding / s + 228 poison per second and thats not factoring in the might you get if you use blood is power first and all the vulnerability. I dont imagine a Warrior can passively regen over 1000 dps can they?

KarlaGrey.5903:

Also, I suppose I used the wrong expression when it comes to undergeared character’s contribution in dungeons – perhaps ‘useless’ would be more exact, or a ‘deadweight’.
snip..

Useless and dead weight are actually worst terms to use here. At best you can call it sub optimal. As for multiple gear sets you dont really need to the best gear for every role all of the time. If that were the case people would need to switch gear all the time during combat. I am currently doing Condition damage, I need one type of gear. Ohh my team mate is low on health, here lets switch gear with healing power and slap a regen on him. Also lets change gear to boost our condition duration and shoot a nice fear and chill to slow them down and give our alies some breathing space.

You get to gear for your main play style sub optimal isnt as useless and you seem to believe it is.

KarlaGrey.5903:

On playing the game – of course I prefer to play the game, snip..

I am not sure about nothing in terms of income dont play it enough (we’re talking WvW here right?) But you should have tons of karma which you can use to buy exotics as well.

KarlaGrey.5903:

I played the game (well, the pve side of it – 2 lvl 80s) snip..

I dont do any of that, I just play what I enjoy playing and only gather the stuff I come across and yet have 220g by now What you mention might be the best way to make money but its not the only way.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Also, you say GW2 doesn’t put things behind a pay wall, but that’s not quite true. It is just rather subtle about it -snip

So you’re saying in any other game you can earn every item the game has to offer? when WoW didnt even have a cash shop it still had a very rare mount that statistically would drop once every 40 years. Just cause something is rare it doesnt mean its a subtle pay wall. Not just that but why do you need to use the cash shop at all to get those grind related items as you call them. Never converted a single gem, never farmed in my life and yet I can afford The crossing today if I wanted to. Farmers can buy it after farming a meer 16 hrs. How is it locked behind a pay wall exactly?

KarlaGrey.5903:

other times more (removal of rewards and general lack of rewarding content, or of a proper reward system which is actually snip..

Plenty of cosmetic stuff in the cash shop no doubt, I mentioned that too myself but you’re cheating. My issue with other games isnt cosmetic stuff… If companies arent allowed to sell cosmetic stuff in their cash shop what should they sell? I mentioned more limiting things like having very few storage space unless you pay for more making you throw away everything before you have time to sell or salvage stuff. Some games have it so bad that you’re limited by the number of quests you can undertake at the same time cause you litterally dont have enough space to collect the items you need to take back to the NPC for 3 quests at the same time. Or DLCs that you need to pay for to enjoy, or even buying an extra skill bar to put your skills on. These are things that really limit your enjoyment and are constantly nagging at you. A weapon skin doesnt compare sorry.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Mind you shouldn’t compare what real f2p games charge you for, but rather what other real b2p games have to offer, snip

B2P? they only B2P games are Gw1, Gw2 and Defiance. The secret world switch over to B2P from P2P. There is really no standard for B2P games, All of them have cash shops that sell cosmetics that you cannot acquire in anyway without using real money except for gw2 that at least you got an option to use in game money if you really want something and dont want to spend the cash.

KarlaGrey.5903:

When I logged in a month ago or so, all the snip..

Actually I love the trait changes personally. They have you play all around the world and the reward is actually worth while. Why does it bother you so much? Especially considering you already said your 2 characters being at max level so it didnt even effect you really. Well not that much at least (maybe you wanted one of the new traits)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

In you know, that was Guild Wars 1 too. Until they did War in Kryta, that game was completely self contained. Every time you did something, you entered the past. Abaddon was still alive no matter where you played in Nightfall, even up to this day.

Except Domain of Anguish.

Correct and that was locked in time too, just locked in the time before you killed Mallyx and after you killed Abbadon.

It’s always locked in time, even if it’s a different time.

MikaHR.1978:

Its not me who claimed its just “balance” “imbalance” and nothing in between. Theres is actually a lot in between and Anet should strive to get things MORE to the balanced side of things and LESS imbalanced side, while you claim it doesnt matter at all (which is actually false as my example somewhat showed)

What does bring things more to the balanced side mean? as long as it is unbalanced any changes you do unless those changes bring complete balance you have neither helped nor made things worst. Those changes will not matter.

Example lets say they make everyone’s gear equal like spvp. does that make things more balanced?

not really no. while such a change may result in some fights be more fair it will result in other fights who where more on even footing before the change to become less fair.

If absolutely every thing is equal then sure, equalizing gear would make things more fair. But in WvW there is not such thing as everything being equal. one fight might have a group with smaller numbers and that group might actually bridge the gap a bit with better gear and now that was taken from them. Did that bring balance? no. Of course the opposite can also be true and it might make things worst, 100% agreed. But thats the thing Unbalanced is Unbalanced. It can either be all balanced or no change will have a net effect on anything.

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Well, there IS a schedule for Tequatl. But if you want a truly living world, you have to trade something for it. One of the things you trade is predictability. If you want predictability play a game that’s always exactly the same, there are plenty of them.

But Anet has said from day 1, before even, their goal is to produce a living breathing world and that has to include some level of unpredictability. We knew before launch that events would ping pong along time lines, but we also knew we could intersect that event at any time and we knew some events even interacted with each other.

Having a world that’s not instanced, means other people can enter it and that creates unpredictability too. Someone triggers an event, or doesn’t changes what’s happening. I’ve been on death’s door, ready to be defeated, when a complete stranger pops up and helps me win. Try that with an instanced lobby based game. It can’t happen. It’s a random element.

Unfortunately, for better or for worse, the public has embraced open worlds, as opposed to instanced content. It’s what makes MMOs MMOs. That’s why Guild Wars 1 wasn’t an MMO and Guild Wars 2 is. The existence of a persistent world. A world that isn’t created when you leave the city. The other day I watched an NPC finish an event for me. I thought that was awesome.

Story telling does suffer, which is why most MMOs have lousy stories. And the ones that have good stories can only tell them through instances, where the world itself isn’t part of it. It’s part and parcel of having an MMO.

Anet wanted to make an MMO, and there’s no way to do it while instancing everything.

Yet season 2 is 90% instanced and if they want to continue to tell a decent story, they have to stick to instances and ignore everything in open world, or maybe even worse, make changes to open world and confuse everyone who isn’t at that part of the story.
Like I said, my problem is not with the open world , but that their highest priority is something that’s not an open world material.

Have you played Season 2?

There is instanced content, being backed up by the zone. Dry Top is open world, not Season 2. But what’s happening in it is tied to the Living World instances.

The only real downside to it, is that it will probably be locked in time like Orr is. But it’s more effective for story telling than just instances.

Yes, but if you look at new players, it will be confusing to see tybalt selling apples in a burned down city or having a meeting with the pact in a fort destroyed by mordremorth. And on the locked time thing: yes that’s a big downside too , they can continue to introduce new parts of a zone ,which is great, but if they change anything outside of newly released zones that won’t make sense for those who aren’t cathed up with the story. I wouldn’t call that a living world.

It’s living AND locked in time. That is to say, within that time frame it’s alive. It’s living because it evolves with the story as the story evolves. Orr feels quite alive to me. But it’s locked in time.

In you know, that was Guild Wars 1 too. Until they did War in Kryta, that game was completely self contained. Every time you did something, you entered the past. Abaddon was still alive no matter where you played in Nightfall, even up to this day.

Agreed but with GW1 they never intended to create “Living World” ,yet they had the tools and the system to make one in a sensible way. If they wanted to, they could change the world Elona for example to reflect Abaddon’s defeat by simply removing the margonites or by addig a new questline to defeat them. They can’t do the same with Zhaitan’s undead ,they will be there forever no matter how many years ago we killed zhaitan.
Also , not only the world was better for story telling in GW1 but also the features. Let’s take heroes for example, I don’t think I have to tell much about it since you are familiar with it too, but in GW2 what do we have? We have a lot of personal story friends (Charr warband, Asura krewmates, Human sister etc) ,but what do you think what’s the chance we ever see them again? Also with the introduction of WoC you had the chance to “visit” the past by talking to an NPC ,this way you could kill of the Plague again. These kind of things can’t happen in GW2 since it’s open world, yet if there is no such an option, people will miss out.

And besides, we know time progresses in tyria too, two years has passed since the defeat of Zhaitan, yet only those areas aren’t locked in time which gets touched by living story.

How Make the GW2 Work (hard for the money)

1. Temporarily cease further development on GW2, but leave the game up and running.

2. Remove all Guild Wars lore and nomenclature from the latest iteration of GW2. Using this ‘stripped down’ version of the game…

3. Launch a NEW game called ‘Forums Of Eternal Squabbling’, also known as FOES.

4. Races: humans, moocats, woodies, broern, and smirks.

5. Classes: armiger, assassin, beastmaster, crusader, elementor, exterminator, mind witch, and reanimator.

6. Lore (at its most basic): Welcome to Anetrica, a world where the Forumites, those who would rule over all, must set aside centuries of unresolved squabbling and learn to work together to save the world (and themselves along with it) from the Return of the Primal Monstrosities of Old. (Add flavor as needed.)

7. Innovate at Will.

8. Add jumping to the original Guild Wars, along with a few landscape changes to reflect two centuries and a half of time passed by, throw in some new zones, updated graphics, asura, norn, and sylvari as playable races, and then with a big ol’ patch replace the existing GW2 with Guild Wars 2: The Real Thing This Time!

9. Profit!

Vayne.8563:

Scipio.3204:

Vayne.8563:

Orr was already a giant champ train before then.

Champ trains wouldn’t make sense, karma trains perhaps, but I don’t think that had anything to do with the creation of living story. Trains are not really a fun way to play the game and people aren’t playing them to have fun. Southsun cove was probably already in the works not long after release which means they had plans to do that without any information on what is going on in the game.

Yes I meant a karma train. There was a train. That’s the point. It probably wasn’t quite how Anet envisioned the game going.

The game at launch was incredibly unrewarding. I don’t really see how they failed to realize what that would do as an effect.

I don’t think I’ll ever play another MMO that felt as “involved” as the first Guild Wars. Although, I don’t really consider the game to be an MMO. But, it was genuinely fun and the game rewarded me for experimenting and investing time in my characters.

Galen Grey.4709:

MikaHR.1978:

Its not me who claimed its just “balance” “imbalance” and nothing in between. Theres is actually a lot in between and Anet should strive to get things MORE to the balanced side of things and LESS imbalanced side, while you claim it doesnt matter at all (which is actually false as my example somewhat showed)

What does bring things more to the balanced side mean? as long as it is unbalanced any changes you do unless those changes bring complete balance you have neither helped nor made things worst. Those changes will not matter.

Example lets say they make everyone’s gear equal like spvp. does that make things more balanced?

not really no. while such a change may result in some fights be more fair it will result in other fights who where more on even footing before the change to become less fair.

If absolutely every thing is equal then sure, equalizing gear would make things more fair. But in WvW there is not such thing as everything being equal. one fight might have a group with smaller numbers and that group might actually bridge the gap a bit with better gear and now that was taken from them. Did that bring balance? no. Of course the opposite can also be true and it might make things worst, 100% agreed. But thats the thing Unbalanced is Unbalanced. It can either be all balanced or no change will have a net effect on anything.

Nonsense. So lets say they focus on getting population more in line. So does imbalanced gear make it worse or better? Bingo, gear is one of the factors of imbalance (as its set up right now) much much more than it was before.

Aspiring to balance makes game better for vast majority of people, and no, introducing new imbalance factors doesnt add to that goal.

It would be like saying huge buffs for winning side isnt big deal, because once in a blue moon highly disatvantaged side might be winning so it would bring “more balance”. You just DONT do that.

You just dont introduce new imbalancing factors and say “hey, its imbalanced already so no big deal”

Lets just make warriors alpha class that does 3xmore damage, has 3xmore health/armor, does 3x more healing and has perma boons. But just because its slightly imbalanced now it doesnt matter, you know, imbalanced is imbalanced, so why bother?

And if imbalance is such a non factor – why are there 3 tiers in www? I mean, just make everyone can face everyone because imbalance is imbalance, so nothing you do will make it more balanced.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

IndigoSundown.5419:

OK, how is the GW2 cash shop invasive? I see people making claims like this, but they don’t ever say what they mean beyond using general pejoratives. Spell it out if you want the issue to be discussed. If you don’t, then I’m going to conclude that you all haven’t a clue what you’re talking about.

I’d say that the Gem Store in GW2 isn’t so much invasive, as it is starting to undermine the reward system of the game, and the development of the game.

-snip for brevity-

OK, now that’s a fair point.

The reward systems in GW2 are designed to fulfill objectives that are at least in part in conflict with each other. ANet claims to want to make the game rewarding. They also want players to stick around. They further want to avoid the perception of grind (bear with me, please). They also want to a game in which most rewards are not locked behind skill barriers. Further, they want to entice skilled players to play the game and repeat content. They wanted a flat BiS acquisition curve (i.e., no successive, difficult to attain, gear tiers). They also used the store as the model to monetize the ongoing game — but without generating a P2W scenario. So, you have three major conflict points:

1. Retention in a bloody MMO, v, lack of grind. That one was always going to come out on the side of there being a potential for perceived grind. People are not particularly patient, get bored easily, yet want their MMO to provide something for them to do ad infinitum. I’m not saying that huge acquisition lists to make an incremental award, or extremely low percentage RNG are good things, but they are what results when retention trumps lack of grind.
2. Skill as the sole means to acquisition v. time as the sole means. This is the old softcore v. hardcore argument. I think it’s pretty obvious that other than skins in Teq/Wurm/TAAP/FotM, there is very little that is aimed exclusively at the skilled players.
3. Cosmetics for monetizing v. as an endgame pursuit. Given ANet statements that armor skins are time and resource intensive to create, cosmetics were simply being asked to do too much in this game. With such a conflict, armor skins as rewards were always going to come out on the losing end.

I’d give ANet a D+ on rewards in this game. I find the incremental rewards to be particularly undesirable. However, I get there are plenty of people who prefer a laundry list to the anticipation/frustration cycle of RNG.

MikaHR.1978:

Galen Grey.4709:

MikaHR.1978:

Its not me who claimed its just “balance” “imbalance” and nothing in between. Theres is actually a lot in between and Anet should strive to get things MORE to the balanced side of things and LESS imbalanced side, while you claim it doesnt matter at all (which is actually false as my example somewhat showed)

What does bring things more to the balanced side mean? as long as it is unbalanced any changes you do unless those changes bring complete balance you have neither helped nor made things worst. Those changes will not matter.

Example lets say they make everyone’s gear equal like spvp. does that make things more balanced?

not really no. while such a change may result in some fights be more fair it will result in other fights who where more on even footing before the change to become less fair.

If absolutely every thing is equal then sure, equalizing gear would make things more fair. But in WvW there is not such thing as everything being equal. one fight might have a group with smaller numbers and that group might actually bridge the gap a bit with better gear and now that was taken from them. Did that bring balance? no. Of course the opposite can also be true and it might make things worst, 100% agreed. But thats the thing Unbalanced is Unbalanced. It can either be all balanced or no change will have a net effect on anything.

Nonsense. So lets say they focus on getting population more in line. So does imbalanced gear make it worse or better? Bingo, gear is one of the factors of imbalance (as its set up right now) much much more than it was before.

Aspiring to balance makes game better for vast majority of people, and no, introducing new imbalance factors doesnt add to that goal.

It would be like saying huge buffs for winning side isnt big deal, because once in a blue moon highly disatvantaged side might be winning so it would bring “more balance”. You just DONT do that.

You just dont introduce new imbalancing factors and say “hey, its imbalanced already so no big deal”

Lets just make warriors alpha class that does 3xmore damage, has 3xmore health/armor, does 3x more healing and has perma boons. But just because its slightly imbalanced now it doesnt matter, you know, imbalanced is imbalanced, so why bother?

And if imbalance is such a non factor – why are there 3 tiers in www? I mean, just make everyone can face everyone because imbalance is imbalance, so nothing you do will make it more balanced.

while they didnt make warriors 3x more lethal thats actually already there and its called siege golems yet the game mode didnt break just cause they exist. The only bad thing with such a change to warriors would be you’d have nearly every player switch to warrior but in truth it wouldnt upset the balance. Dont forget a crucial aspect here, these imbalances dont apply to a single side they apply to every side equally. So if suddenly warriors got 3x more lethal the majority if not all the players of every server will start using warriors for wvw, how would that impact balance? Ironically it would probably make fights more fair rather then the oppsite as it would remove class advantages out of the equation!

Also fights with different numbers on either side isnt something that happens in a blue moon, its the order of the day. I’d say fights of equal numbers on each side is somethign you get once in a blue moon not the other way round. a single person difference on one team is the equivalent of 10 less players on one side without ascended gear and 10 more players on the other side with ascended gear yet the big balance problem is ascended gear and not uneven numbers? And lets be honest, if the enemy team has just 1 extra person compared to you, generally you’re ecstatic unless you’re roaming solo perhaps for in most cases its way more then 1 extra player.

One thing thats important to keep in mind is WvW is a group based game. you may not have a single piece of ascended gear but that doesnt mean you and your group are in a disadvantage, good chance is someone on the enemy’s team is in the same boat.

MikaHR.1978:

only 3 games and things that trump anything in GW2 by few orders of magnitude.

Difference is those games are upfront about it, and at least in the case of SWTOR it takes a very minor amount to unlock preferred status. GW2 isn’t upfront about it, as has been discussed in many threads before the reward system of the game has been reduced to earning gold and the ability to exchange gems for gold.

IndigoSundown.5419:

1. Cosmetics for monetizing v. as an endgame pursuit. Given ANet statements that armor skins are time and resource intensive to create, cosmetics were simply being asked to do too much in this game. With such a conflict, armor skins as rewards were always going to come out on the losing end.

Given the way SWTOR comes out with armor sets this rings a bit hollow.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

IndigoSundown.5419:

OK, how is the GW2 cash shop invasive? I see people making claims like this, but they don’t ever say what they mean beyond using general pejoratives. Spell it out if you want the issue to be discussed. If you don’t, then I’m going to conclude that you all haven’t a clue what you’re talking about.

I’d say that the Gem Store in GW2 isn’t so much invasive, as it is starting to undermine the reward system of the game, and the development of the game.

-snip for brevity-

OK, now that’s a fair point.

The reward systems in GW2 are designed to fulfill objectives that are at least in part in conflict with each other. ANet claims to want to make the game rewarding. They also want players to stick around. They further want to avoid the perception of grind (bear with me, please). They also want to a game in which most rewards are not locked behind skill barriers. Further, they want to entice skilled players to play the game and repeat content. They wanted a flat BiS acquisition curve (i.e., no successive, difficult to attain, gear tiers). They also used the store as the model to monetize the ongoing game — but without generating a P2W scenario. So, you have three major conflict points:

1. Retention in a bloody MMO, v, lack of grind. That one was always going to come out on the side of there being a potential for perceived grind. People are not particularly patient, get bored easily, yet want their MMO to provide something for them to do ad infinitum. I’m not saying that huge acquisition lists to make an incremental award, or extremely low percentage RNG are good things, but they are what results when retention trumps lack of grind.
2. Skill as the sole means to acquisition v. time as the sole means. This is the old softcore v. hardcore argument. I think it’s pretty obvious that other than skins in Teq/Wurm/TAAP/FotM, there is very little that is aimed exclusively at the skilled players.
3. Cosmetics for monetizing v. as an endgame pursuit. Given ANet statements that armor skins are time and resource intensive to create, cosmetics were simply being asked to do too much in this game. With such a conflict, armor skins as rewards were always going to come out on the losing end.

I’d give ANet a D+ on rewards in this game. I find the incremental rewards to be particularly undesirable. However, I get there are plenty of people who prefer a laundry list to the anticipation/frustration cycle of RNG.

Or we’re seriously spoiled. Sure a good number of skins are sold on at the gem store. That being said nearly every 2 weeks we get new skins that can be earned in game sometimes even more then one in a single release. Which other MMO does that? I bet Gw2 has released more free skins then even Gw1 did with its expansions. Yet people seem to have tunnel vision and only see the paid skins.

Galen Grey.4709:

Or we’re seriously spoiled. Sure a good number of skins are sold on at the gem store. That being said nearly every 2 weeks we get new skins that can be earned in game sometimes even more then one in a single release. Which other MMO does that? I bet Gw2 has released more free skins then even Gw1 did with its expansions. Yet people seem to have tunnel vision and only see the paid skins.

I wouldn’t call that spoiled though. Lots of those new skins obtainable in-game have very low drop rates. This makes a lot of skins the equivalent of adding a lot of mini polarbears to the game (a debacle back from GW1, for those that don’t get the reference).

When skins are locked behind such tight RNG, many players will perceive this as no reward, and frankly it would be unfair to call them ‘spoiled’ for thinking so.

I don’t even play the game anymore nor do I post on the forums, because every time I try it ends badly and I stopped feeling my feedback has any impact on the actual development, but…
I decided to hop in and try to summarize some of the points brought up in this thread and maybe add some of my point of view.

I’ll start by saying that I same as the OP played GW1, yesterday, and also noticed some of the old nostalgia and attachment to the game. Instead of going why there was such a feeling in GW1 I’m going to try to describe why I feel it is not so much in GW2 anymore.

The problem stated by the OP – feeling detached from the GW2 characters, personality problem. This is very much how I’ve been feeling since the release. Being an RPG fan, I like reading good stories and being able to connect with characters. In GW2 it just doesn’t ever happen and the reasons are many, but in my view the one that most others are rooted in is fragmentation.

• Missed Personal Story – not so much in the story part, but in how it flows from one quest to another, it fails at creating interesting characters and organizations, probably because of budget constraints on this part of the game before the release as well as technical restrictions.
• Post-release mess – Anet trying to find the way to reinvent themselves to successfully service the game after launch over and over again – started with testing some mass events approach (Halloween, Karka) to more structured, temporary-type Season 1 Living Story content to another switch to an instanced type Season 2 LS content. Work is never optimal when things keep changing severely all the time.
• Undefined playable character role in the game world – who are we after almost two seasons of the Living Story? My character started as a Divinity’s Reach nobleman, then was a someone in the Order of Whispers, then it became the Commander of the Pact, then went on adventuring against Scarlet and now is pretty much everything + has a party of NPCs.
• Very limited character customization outside of cosmetics – we had a character development CDI where people gave some amazing ideas on how to improve it and the only thing that came out of it after some months is the dreaded trait acquisition system. Things like prestige classes, more tiered class-specific achievements/titles (I have 3000 tournament wins with my necro and I’m still the same Champion Phantom I was in the first two months after launch). There needs to be a robust, long-term, gameplay-connected progression system on top of levels and traits to make characters more customizable and give the veteran players a >real< reason to play the game. Item collections, cosmetics from the Gem Store and achievement points rewards don’t cut it. I never thought I’d say that but I think Anet needs to look at Blizzard and what they did with Diablo 3 – after a terrible, terrible launch they had it all reworked and the game is actually enjoyable right now and there is always some progression to be made. The art is in creating a long-term progression system that is not impactful too much but still worthwhile pursuing.

continued

These are just some of the reasons that cause players that put enough time in the game feel detached from their characters. There is never enough time to develop a good story because everything is delivered in batches (Personal Story, Living Story alike) that fail at developing interesting characters and villains and playable character story development is hindered by both the delivery and the restrictions some of which include being unable to voice it properly. I’d also argue that story flow in instances themselves is rather poor at least for my standards.

Of course there is a problem of continuity and Anet really are in a bad spot at the moment because their design decisions limit their options. The (not-so-)cleansed Orr and Personal Story in the destroyed Lion’s Arch arguments come to mind and with each Living Story installment it is only getting worse (Nightmare stuff, Mordrem lately). The obvious solution would be to just stop putting new stuff in old maps and focus the game development on adding new zones, which has its own set of problems of course.

As for the Gem Store invasiveness issue – I can see how it impacts the game development but I wouldn’t go as far as saying that is the only thing Anet cares about. The main problem is that the gargantuan majority of the cosmetic progression is moved from the actual game world to the Gem Store window. I can imagine every time someone from the art department comes up with an amazing armour concept it is bound to be introduced in the Gem Store instead of being a reward for an elite dungeon (not like such a thing is ever coming). This is the biggest culprit here, in my opinion. Being a professional economist, I could go on trying to analyze the impact the microtransactions system has on the game experience, the gold sinks and so on, but I don’t really think it is that important.

@Karla: let’s hook up in D3! Find me at Leman#2825. Playing the Season?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Galen Grey.4709:

Or we’re seriously spoiled. Sure a good number of skins are sold on at the gem store. That being said nearly every 2 weeks we get new skins that can be earned in game sometimes even more then one in a single release. Which other MMO does that? I bet Gw2 has released more free skins then even Gw1 did with its expansions. Yet people seem to have tunnel vision and only see the paid skins.

I wouldn’t call that spoiled though. Lots of those new skins obtainable in-game have very low drop rates. This makes a lot of skins the equivalent of adding a lot of mini polarbears to the game (a debacle back from GW1, for those that don’t get the reference).

When skins are locked behind such tight RNG, many players will perceive this as no reward, and frankly it would unfair to call them ‘spoiled’ for thinking so.

we always had a mix of the two. Sure somethings like the dragon weapons and Aetherwhatevers skins had a low drop rate. Others like the truckload of back skins were very easy to get. Others like the Aetherized shoulders just involved a challenge instead of range (would be nice if we had more of these in my opinion). Other still arent really locked but you do need some patience to get them like the champion weapon skins, amberite weapon skins etc.. There was a wide range of types.

Hmm nothing beats the mini polar bear.. At least I got some of these rare skins the mini polar bear.. nope never

I am curious, a question to people who feel they just cant be get attached to gw2 characters. did you read these short stories?
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Tales

Galen Grey.4709:

I am curious, a question to people who feel they just cant be get attached to gw2 characters. did you read these short stories?
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Tales

I personally was aware of their existence from a previous thread but didn’t know where to find them.

Are they in books ingame, some of the libraries I’ve seen around? That would be interesting to find and read.

I can’t get attached, it’s just bad in-game writing and delivery imo.

In saying I prefer games where you create your own story and character (CoH anyone?) and have done so here. GW1 was cool and I’m sure those invested into GW2’s plot probably think I’m illiterate, lazy or slightly kittened and while I am all three according to my doctor my opinion still stands.

The only time I cared about the plot in this game was when my guildies passion for the story overwhelmed my sense of not caring, which I admit was highly enjoyable. Outside that I just clicked on the “skip” button as soon as I could find it.

fireflyry.7023:

The only time I cared about the plot in this game was when my guildies passion for the story overwhelmed my sense of not caring, which I admit was highly enjoyable. Outside that I just clicked on the “skip” button as soon as I could find it.

So you admit some of your guildies are passionate about the story. Good to know. lol

Vayne.8563:

fireflyry.7023:

The only time I cared about the plot in this game was when my guildies passion for the story overwhelmed my sense of not caring, which I admit was highly enjoyable. Outside that I just clicked on the “skip” button as soon as I could find it.

So you admit some of your guildies are passionate about the story. Good to know. lol

I’m sure some people were passionate about ‘Cop Rock’.

Say, that would be interesting: what if the living story was a musical?

Astral Projections.7320:

Galen Grey.4709:

I am curious, a question to people who feel they just cant be get attached to gw2 characters. did you read these short stories?
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Tales

I personally was aware of their existence from a previous thread but didn’t know where to find them.

Are they in books ingame, some of the libraries I’ve seen around? That would be interesting to find and read.

alas no and thats a pity

fireflyry.7023:

I can’t get attached, it’s just bad in-game writing and delivery imo.

In saying I prefer games where you create your own story and character (CoH anyone?) and have done so here. GW1 was cool and I’m sure those invested into GW2’s plot probably think I’m illiterate, lazy or slightly kittened and while I am all three according to my doctor my opinion still stands.

The only time I cared about the plot in this game was when my guildies passion for the story overwhelmed my sense of not caring, which I admit was highly enjoyable. Outside that I just clicked on the “skip” button as soon as I could find it.

No offense but if you refuse to read the story and even skip the story that is presented in game how do you expect to ever be invested? You’re blaming the game for something you’re saying you’re doing on purpose.

It’s a catch 22.

If I feel invested I won’t skip. I gave it my dues first time till 80, talking head to talking head for hours on end and no…I found the writing to be lack-luster and cliche. Second time was the same deal with subtle variation on the fact I choose a differing allegiance.

The only time I felt investment was when I played with others who cared more and who I cared about.They personalized it. GW1’s story and delivery was vastly superior, imo.

What they could have done, is expand on the personality system that is still in the game, but hidden. But what Anet has done instead, is hide that system completely. Another example of the devs being out of touch with their community. We ask for more ways to be part of the story, and see our personality have an impact on the story. What they do instead, is remove the personality system. I really don’t get that. Do they just not get it?

I always see people trying to compare GW1 to GW2. Sure GW2 has it flaws as did GW1 however i feel like the character customization in GW2 has way more depth then GW1. I feel extremely attached to all my toons in gw2 as i didn’t really in gw1. The story lines in gw1 were alot better and more epic true, but the story line was also essentially the whole game. Gw1 in my opinion isnt really an mmo but more of a coop experience with MMO aspects. The combat in gw1 i always felt was pretty dull, and i hated how movements were so static, GW2 has the best combat system i have ever seen in an mmo and the PVP is extremely addictive if you get into it which is impressive considering there is only really one game type. To be honest the only few things i would really like to see Anet take from GW1 and put into GW2 is Guild Halls, Guild Capes and the Abilitiy so save and load your kitten builds in game lol. I also feel that both games dungeons were a little lack luster in comparison to games like WoW for example however the way the game mechanics are for both GW1 and GW2 long 4 hour raids simply wouldn’t fit in, especially in GW2. What i would really like to see changed in GW2 however is a more in depth dungeon system that actually required skill. Someone to heal, someone to buff, someone to take the hits rather then a bunch of people specing in pure dps and bursting the target as quick as possible. One last note aswell, please please please bring back to faction system! (Kurzick V.S Luxon could spark a whole new PVP/WvW Phenomenon.)

Luxon ftw!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

What they could have done, is expand on the personality system that is still in the game, but hidden. But what Anet has done instead, is hide that system completely. Another example of the devs being out of touch with their community. We ask for more ways to be part of the story, and see our personality have an impact on the story. What they do instead, is remove the personality system. I really don’t get that. Do they just not get it?

I dont know, the personality system is one of those things thats a great idea on paper but probably doesnt really add that much. I am sure if you ask most players are going to tell you it never did anything oblivious to the fact it changes dialog choices in some npcs. Thing is it was really hard to even see it in action. First you needed to build the personality when you had choices that effected the personality. Then you needed to remember what dialog choices you had. Then god knows how long after that while playing a different alt with a different personality and you talk to the same npc you’d get a different dialog choice with a different demeanor.

Dont get me wrong, I love little detail, it brings the world alive. And one of the strengths of Gw2 is that Anet doesnt shy away from extra work to seed this little detail. But I think the personality system was something hard to appreciate. I’ve seen it in action, I noticed different responses from npcs but its something so rare and non impactful that if you had to ask me for an example I couldnt give you one at the top of my head. What I think Anet did was shelf the personality system and move it to the living story where now major characters that are way more memorable then random npcs change dialog option based on your race and sometimes profession. It essentially does the same thing but in the center of the story making it way more memorable. In fact unlike the personality system I can give examples of where this happens. I think this was a step in the right direction really.

You have a good point, but it’s a shame that they never allowed the personality system to reach it’s full potential. And I blame that entirely on the writing. They never allowed the player to be anything but “unfriendly but good”, “neutral but good”, and “goody-two-shoes”.

They should really have gone the Mass Effect approach:
Renegade (hitting people in the face, shoot first and ask questions later) – Paragon (Try and talk things out), or the BaldursGate approach, by allowing you to be either good or evil.

But by forcing the player to be these boring three shades of good, it is very hard for the player to tell the three apart. Plus it forces the game into a very immature writing style, where everyone is nice to each other, and there is no edge to anything.

What is also does, is that your dialogue choices are irrelevant, since the outcome is the same. In Mass Effect, you could avoid entire fights by just being intimidating as hell, and putting a gun in their face. That does not happen in GW2, the outcome always seems the same.

It could have been better, if they had been willing to be less PG.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

You have a good point, but it’s a shame that they never allowed the personality system to reach it’s full potential. And I blame that entirely on the writing. They never allowed the player to be anything but “unfriendly but good”, “neutral but good”, and “goody-two-shoes”.

They should really have gone the Mass Effect approach:
Renegade (hitting people in the face, shoot first and ask questions later) – Paragon (Try and talk things out), or the BaldursGate approach, by allowing you to be either good or evil.

But by forcing the player to be these boring three shades of good, it is very hard for the player to tell the three apart. Plus it forces the game into a very immature writing style, where everyone is nice to each other, and there is no edge to anything.

It could have been better, if they had been willing to be less PG.

My guess is they had neither the time, nor budget to do that. It would have taken a lot more work, a lot more responses, even changes to the story. The story makes you a goody two shoes. It would have to change to make you bad…and that’s a lot of work.

Boneheart.3561:

How convenient, your last post on ArchAge without explaining Labor Points.

AA, Labor points, and pay2win, are not the subject of the thread. I became aware that It is derailing the subject of the thread which is " Why gw2 is not working"

As such, believe what you wish.

I am not going to derail the thread. As such I will not be discussing this any longer.

Back on topic. I believe that MMO players have become accustomed to getting expansions every so often. As much as " Living Story" and it’s " expansion-like content" of which the developers seem to have fallen in thrall, may add some additional content, it is not an expansion in my mind. I can only speak for myself, but I believe I have seen other posts from other players saying the same.

For me, an expansion is something that*expands* how I play, it is more than extra maps, and quests. That is just more to do in the same way. Not an expansion. More professions, more skills, … more weapons.

Living story in my opinion is a cheap cop out by Anet. It is supposed to convince players they don’t need an expansion.

The thing is, an expansion gets buzz in the Video Game Magazines, it also may get olderplayers that stopped playing to return, but as someone posted elsewhere, Gw2’s business Model seems to be predicated on a revolving door, Old vet goes out, new player comes In. Maybe they do not wish to retain any older players. I cannot say, but.. even if they do not wish older players to return, an expansion also gets more new players to try out the game.

Maybe Most players are content with Living Story. Some are not.

Another problem for me…. is the “Paid for beta” nature of Gw2. They try one thing, then another… they change how traits work, then change how skills and weapons work. It just feels that, all of the current changes should have been either added at launch, or shortly thereafter. It just feels to me they don’t know what they are doing, and doing trial-and-error.

Also, They seem to be both dumbing the game down, and pushing abilities BACK, higher and higher. First traits were dumbed down, … now skill acquisition is dumbed down… I Just feel that the target demographic is getting … more and more the Lowest common denominator.

For someone that has been playing MMO’s since EverQuest, to be told.. that I need to wait til level x…to use skills y and z, is a Bit…. Not even sure of the right word.

It feels Like they assume I need all these levels to know How to use certain skills. Now I hear elites are pushed all the way to 40?

I think that the nature of the changes, and the frequency with which they mess with the core of the game…. leads me to conclude that gw2 is not ready for release yet. Which leads me to wonder, what have they been doing the past 2 years?

Paid for Closed Beta testing?

Vayne.8563:

My guess is they had neither the time, nor budget to do that. It would have taken a lot more work, a lot more responses, even changes to the story. The story makes you a goody two shoes. It would have to change to make you bad…and that’s a lot of work.

They could have taken cues from Fall Out 3, by making you either the savior or the terror of the Wasteland; or in this case, the savior or terror of Tyria. You could still be fighting Zhaitan, but people might have a negative opinion of you. But of course that means extra dialogue, and thus extra voice acting.

But I would gladly sacrifice voice acting for normal text boxes, if it meant that I got to play my own character. Sure, Mass Effect also pigeonholed you into a stereotype. But at least it wasn’t a bland cartboard cut out. That’s what GW2’s writing feels like. People keep complaining about Trahearne and Destiny’s Edge (and rightly so), but the worst character in the entire game, is the player-character, hands down.

Nerelith.7360:

Boneheart.3561:

How convenient, your last post on ArchAge without explaining Labor Points.

AA, Labor points, and pay2win, are not the subject of the thread. I became aware that It is derailing the subject of the thread which is " Why gw2 is not working"

As such, believe what you wish.

I am not going to derail the thread. As such I will not be discussing this any longer.

Back on topic. I believe that MMO players have become accustomed to getting expansions every so often. As much as " Living Story" and it’s " expansion-like content of which the developers seem to have fallen in thrall, may add some additional content, it is not an expansion in my mind. I can only speak for myself, but I believe I have seen other posts from other players saying the same.

Living story is a cheap cop out by Anet. it is supposed to convince players they don’t need an expansion.

Maybe Most players are content with Living Story. Some are not.

Another problem for me…. is the “Paid for beta” nature of Gw2. They try one thing, then another… they change how traits work, then change how skills and weapons work. It just feels that, all of the current changes should have been either added at launch, or shortly thereafter. It just feels to me they don’t know what they are doing, and doing trian-and-error.

Also, They seem to be both dumbing the game down, and pushing abilities BACK, higher and higher. First traits were dumbed down, … now skill acquisition is dumbed down… I Just feel that the target demographic is getting … more and more the Loest common denominator.

For someone that has been playing MMO’s since EverQuest, to be told.. that I need to wait til level x…to use skills y and z, is a Bit…. Not even sure of the right word.

It feels Like they assume I need all these levels to know How to use certain skills. Now I hear elites are pushed all the way to 40?

I think that the nature of the changes, and the frequency with which they mess with the core of the game…. leads me to conclude that gw2 is not ready for release yet. Which leads me to wonder, what have they been doing the past 2 years?

Paid for Closed Beta testing?

Every MMO has similar situations where devs try things and it doesn’t work. Wait till you see the changes that are going to come to AA. I hope you come back and less us know what you think of it in six months.

More to the point, you’re not playing this game but you’re still commenting on it. The elite skill now unlocks at level 31, not level 40. That’s the first thing. Much of the information you’ve been seeing online about stuff being locked out is factually wrong. But you wouldn’t know because you didn’t test the system.

So if you’re going to complain about the game, at least try to stay current with the information. There’s really no reason to spread misinformation.

There have already been changes to the NPE based on fan response. For example Skill point challenges now unlock at level 13, but once unlocked once, it’s account wide. So for new people it will be first character only.

There’s changes to the levels skills unlock out too. Nice that you’ve found another game, but if you’re not playing this one, you’re out of the loop.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

You have a good point, but it’s a shame that they never allowed the personality system to reach it’s full potential. And I blame that entirely on the writing. They never allowed the player to be anything but “unfriendly but good”, “neutral but good”, and “goody-two-shoes”.

They should really have gone the Mass Effect approach:
Renegade (hitting people in the face, shoot first and ask questions later) – Paragon (Try and talk things out), or the BaldursGate approach, by allowing you to be either good or evil.

But by forcing the player to be these boring three shades of good, it is very hard for the player to tell the three apart. Plus it forces the game into a very immature writing style, where everyone is nice to each other, and there is no edge to anything.

What is also does, is that your dialogue choices are irrelevant, since the outcome is the same. In Mass Effect, you could avoid entire fights by just being intimidating as hell, and putting a gun in their face. That does not happen in GW2, the outcome always seems the same.

It could have been better, if they had been willing to be less PG.

I agree with you, it is a pity we can only be lawful good players practically. I also agree with vayne though. With the cadence of updates they have writing a single dialog stream for all characters is a lot of work, adding race and profession variants to those dialogs increases the effort by quite a bit. Adding good, evil and neutral to that essentially triplicates the work. With Voice overs that would result in quite a bit of financial overhead probably too. Still even though justified you cant help to wonder how awesome it would be if they had to explore that potential.

If choices could alter the flow of the story that would be amazing, 1 of the holy grails of mmos I would say but unfortunately Its essentially impossible to pull off, imagine just after 3 releases you have 3 paths that branch into 9 other paths, the good choice, the bad choice and neutral can each potentially choose any of the 3 the 2nd time round. Each of those 9 paths by the 3rd release would banch into 729 different storylines !!! thats unimaginable. Even if the changes that happen are strictly dialog based writing and recording 729 variations of the dialog is just impossible and thats just 3 releases in. imagine after 6 or 9 releases. Until Anet get a time machine I dont see that happening even then somehow I doubt the writing team will be happy spending several live times writing variations of dialog for the same characters in the same story but in distinctly different situations.

Vayne.8563:

Every MMO has similar situations where devs try things and it doesn’t work. Wait till you see the changes that are going to come to AA. I hope you come back and less us know what you think of it in six months.

More to the point, you’re not playing this game but you’re still commenting on it. The elite skill now unlocks at level 31, not level 40. That’s the first thing. Much of the information you’ve been seeing online about stuff being locked out is factually wrong. But you wouldn’t know because you didn’t test the system.

So if you’re going to complain about the game, at least try to stay current with the information. There’s really no reason to spread misinformation.

There have already been changes to the NPE based on fan response. For example Skill point challenges now unlock at level 13, but once unlocked once, it’s account wide. So for new people it will be first character only.

There’s changes to the levels skills unlock out too. Nice that you’ve found another game, but if you’re not playing this one, you’re out of the loop.

That’s exactly my point. First it’s level 40,..Now it’s 31. It should have been 31 from the get go. And…

While I expect tons of changes In 6 months after release…I don’t expect the core of the game to be changed drastically over and over and over…2 years later. It simply makes me feel that the developers are still experimenting.

As I said Closed Beta. Not so ready for release as it should be.

Secondly. My complaint wasn’t ONLY how long someone needed to wait for an elite, that was intended as an example. level locking weapon skills…is Just another trial and error. Moving elite to 40…. trial and error. You can see it cause they tried it… saw it was an error, then changed it to a Lower level….

That is what trial and error means. And in general… while Trial an error in the early life phase of any MMO is expected. I rarely expect to see it this late in it’s development.

If this is something other players are content with, then Gw2 is working fine.

Or was the NPE change rolled back? Are weapon skills No longer level locked? if the entire NPE fiasco was " Trail-and-error" tested, and they realized it was a bad idea, then maybe I might return, who knows. Then again… In a couple months they may take another core area and change that as well.

Anet had gained a lot of cred with Guild Wars. Lately, I can see Not just how personnel has changed, but it’s very philosophy. As such, until I actually feel the game is worth playing for me, I will be trying other games…

Lastly " Why gw2 is not working". They had an awesome oppurtunity to get a large influx of cash from players that wanted desperately to pay them for an expansion, an expansion in the true sense of the word. Instead some of these players are spending their money elsewhere.

Maybe not enough that Anet cares? Maybe most players are content to unlock Living Story chapters they missed at the gem store, and that is ok. Maybe that more than makes up for the cash that went to other developers.

I Just feel that Gw2 has become too experimental to my tastes, as such… I’ll be lurking to see where the game goes for a while,

As to the rest I wish you happy gaming.

Nerelith.7360:

Vayne.8563:

Every MMO has similar situations where devs try things and it doesn’t work. Wait till you see the changes that are going to come to AA. I hope you come back and less us know what you think of it in six months.

More to the point, you’re not playing this game but you’re still commenting on it. The elite skill now unlocks at level 31, not level 40. That’s the first thing. Much of the information you’ve been seeing online about stuff being locked out is factually wrong. But you wouldn’t know because you didn’t test the system.

So if you’re going to complain about the game, at least try to stay current with the information. There’s really no reason to spread misinformation.

There have already been changes to the NPE based on fan response. For example Skill point challenges now unlock at level 13, but once unlocked once, it’s account wide. So for new people it will be first character only.

There’s changes to the levels skills unlock out too. Nice that you’ve found another game, but if you’re not playing this one, you’re out of the loop.

That’s exactly my point. First it’s level 40,..Now it’s 31. It should have been 31 from the get go. And…

While I expect tons of changes In 6 months after release…I don’t expect the core of the game to be changed drastically over and over and over…2 years later. It simply makes me feel that the developers are still experimenting.

As I said Closed Beta. Not so ready for release as it should be.

Secondly. My complaint wasn’t ONLY how long someone needed to wait for an elite, that was intended as an example. level locking weapon skills…is Just another trial and error. Moving elite to 40…. trial and error. You can see it cause they tried it… saw it was an error, then changed it to a Lower level….

That is what trial and error means. And in general… while Trial an error in the early life phase of any MMO is expected. I rarely expect to see it this late in it’s development.

If this is something other players are content with, then Gw2 is working fine.

Or was the NPE change rolled back? Are weapon skills No longer level locked? if the entire NPE fiasco was " Trail-and-error" tested, and they realized it was a bad idea, then maybe I might return, who knows. Then again… In a couple months they may take another core area and change that as well.

Anet had gained a lot of cred with Guild Wars. Lately, I can see Not just how personnel has changed, but it’s very philosophy. As such, until I actually feel the game is worth playing for me, I will be trying other games…

Lastly " Why gw2 is not working". They had an awesome oppurtunity to get a large influx of cash from players that wanted desperately to pay them for an expansion, an expansion in the true sense of the word. Instead some of these players are spending their money elsewhere.

Maybe not enough that Anet cares? Maybe most players are content to unlock Living Story chapters they missed at the gem store, and that is ok. Maybe that more than makes up for the cash that went to other developers.

I Just feel that Gw2 has become too experimental to my tastes, as such… I’ll be lurking to see where the game goes for a while,

As to the rest I wish you happy gaming.

But even games like WoW changed the core game several times, dumbing things down, making skills easier to build, making the skill tree so simply even a donkey could make a build, and you know, that’s WoW. Lotro had major changes over the years. So did DDO. There were major changes in AoC, in Vanguard. Anyone who played SWG will tell you there was a major change there that sunk the game. It happens…all over the place.

And it’ll happen with AA too, because no one can ever really predict what will work until it goes live in an MMO.

Vayne.8563:

Nerelith.7360:

Vayne.8563:

Every MMO has similar situations where devs try things and it doesn’t work. Wait till you see the changes that are going to come to AA. I hope you come back and less us know what you think of it in six months.

More to the point, you’re not playing this game but you’re still commenting on it. The elite skill now unlocks at level 31, not level 40. That’s the first thing. Much of the information you’ve been seeing online about stuff being locked out is factually wrong. But you wouldn’t know because you didn’t test the system.

So if you’re going to complain about the game, at least try to stay current with the information. There’s really no reason to spread misinformation.

There have already been changes to the NPE based on fan response. For example Skill point challenges now unlock at level 13, but once unlocked once, it’s account wide. So for new people it will be first character only.

There’s changes to the levels skills unlock out too. Nice that you’ve found another game, but if you’re not playing this one, you’re out of the loop.

That’s exactly my point. First it’s level 40,..Now it’s 31. It should have been 31 from the get go. And…

While I expect tons of changes In 6 months after release…I don’t expect the core of the game to be changed drastically over and over and over…2 years later. It simply makes me feel that the developers are still experimenting.

As I said Closed Beta. Not so ready for release as it should be.

Secondly. My complaint wasn’t ONLY how long someone needed to wait for an elite, that was intended as an example. level locking weapon skills…is Just another trial and error. Moving elite to 40…. trial and error. You can see it cause they tried it… saw it was an error, then changed it to a Lower level….

That is what trial and error means. And in general… while Trial an error in the early life phase of any MMO is expected. I rarely expect to see it this late in it’s development.

If this is something other players are content with, then Gw2 is working fine.

Or was the NPE change rolled back? Are weapon skills No longer level locked? if the entire NPE fiasco was " Trail-and-error" tested, and they realized it was a bad idea, then maybe I might return, who knows. Then again… In a couple months they may take another core area and change that as well.

Anet had gained a lot of cred with Guild Wars. Lately, I can see Not just how personnel has changed, but it’s very philosophy. As such, until I actually feel the game is worth playing for me, I will be trying other games…

Lastly " Why gw2 is not working". They had an awesome oppurtunity to get a large influx of cash from players that wanted desperately to pay them for an expansion, an expansion in the true sense of the word. Instead some of these players are spending their money elsewhere.

Maybe not enough that Anet cares? Maybe most players are content to unlock Living Story chapters they missed at the gem store, and that is ok. Maybe that more than makes up for the cash that went to other developers.

I Just feel that Gw2 has become too experimental to my tastes, as such… I’ll be lurking to see where the game goes for a while,

As to the rest I wish you happy gaming.

But even games like WoW changed the core game several times, dumbing things down, making skills easier to build, making the skill tree so simply even a donkey could make a build, and you know, that’s WoW. Lotro had major changes over the years. So did DDO. There were major changes in AoC, in Vanguard. Anyone who played SWG will tell you there was a major change there that sunk the game. It happens…all over the place.

And it’ll happen with AA too, because no one can ever really predict what will work until it goes live in an MMO.

Yes, even WoW changed things, but not every few Months. I am sure SWG also changed things, but not every few months.

it isn’t that there is change. Change is expected. The nature of the changes, and the frequency of the changes for me… leaves the entire gaming experience here, very unstable for me.

I can only speak for myself. What this is telling me in Gw2 is… that i shouldn’t get too comfortable, because they may change the core of the game again and again, as they " trial and error" their way into making gw2 launch ready and launch worthy.

All which should have been done in closed beta, that is what closed beta is for. I am glad to see we agree.

Anyway, I will be goin on a Lurk and explore mode for a while. I leave the final and obligatory response to you.

dannyteo.5864:

I always see people trying to compare GW1 to GW2.

Well you know some of us were naive enough to think a game’s sequel is going to be better in every aspect. Also every improvement GW2 has, often came with a big downside. Take the five race for example. By making 5 race playeable probably we won’t hear our character talk again, lots of armorhas clipping issues and personally I think the races were a lot more intresting as non-playeable, also human history is forced in the background.

fireflyry.7023:

Suxon ftl!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fixed that for you :P

Galen Grey.4709:

I agree with you, it is a pity we can only be lawful good players practically.

. . . no, no, no.

Despite how much good intention my characters had, they were obviously not lawful good, especially the asura and the charr characters. The asura fell squarely into “chaotic good”, the charr into “chaotic neutral”, and my ranger almost always “neutral good”.

Unless you want to define “lawful good” as being about a greater good, which is more “neutral good” than “lawful good”.

Gah . . . alignment matters.

Also, no, there is absolutely no interesting things in playing chaotic evil, which seems to be the only evil game writers tend to leave in when adding a “good/evil” choice system. If I had to be evil, would rather take “lawful evil”, thanks.