Guild Wars 2

Shivan.9438:

Creating an expansion isn’t easy or time/cost effective.

Look how long it took to make GW2 with all of it’s bugs, glitches, exploits, etc still in the game even after all the changes it went through in the betas. To create an expansion that would offer content to keep veterans playing would take a massive amount of time and resources that Anet obviously doesn’t have or are willing or able to spend. If so, core GW2 would be better than it is now.

Not to mention which expansion to make?
Cantha? – It’s been done. But there’s a lot of changes to make. It’s been 200+ years. What’s happened to the Jade Sea? Echovald Forrest? The Celestial Ministry? The damage from the Afflicted? Is it time/cost effective to re-write changes to make the expansion worth developing?

Elonia? – Is there enough pre-existing lore/content to make the expansion worth it without having to write more or retcon for the sake of selling it?

Plus there are still places in Tryia that are closed off, but explorable in GW1. Crystal Desert, more of the Shiverpeaks. And this is main land Tyria, not having to cross the ocean to get to Cantha. The developers have their hands full with just the core game, an expansion without the full world being opened up would be utterly ridiculous time/money wise.

For me, the Irony is, they were able to do it for Guild Wars, which ran on Lower end machines, and had less players, so had less cash to play with.

Now they have Millions of subscribers, a simpler skills system to balance ( and can’t)… less classes, and for some reason, they cannot or will not get the resources to put out a decent expansion?

Why not? The Anet that put out Guild Wars managed to do a LOT more with a LOT less.

I sincerely doubt it’s Not because they are not able, and I just think that they either are not willing, or do not feel they need to….

Maybe they grew complacent?

As long as we keep shopping at the gem store, no need to Put out an expansion i guess.

Nerelith.7360:

Shivan.9438:

Creating an expansion isn’t easy or time/cost effective.

Look how long it took to make GW2 with all of it’s bugs, glitches, exploits, etc still in the game even after all the changes it went through in the betas. To create an expansion that would offer content to keep veterans playing would take a massive amount of time and resources that Anet obviously doesn’t have or are willing or able to spend. If so, core GW2 would be better than it is now.

Not to mention which expansion to make?
Cantha? – It’s been done. But there’s a lot of changes to make. It’s been 200+ years. What’s happened to the Jade Sea? Echovald Forrest? The Celestial Ministry? The damage from the Afflicted? Is it time/cost effective to re-write changes to make the expansion worth developing?

Elonia? – Is there enough pre-existing lore/content to make the expansion worth it without having to write more or retcon for the sake of selling it?

Plus there are still places in Tryia that are closed off, but explorable in GW1. Crystal Desert, more of the Shiverpeaks. And this is main land Tyria, not having to cross the ocean to get to Cantha. The developers have their hands full with just the core game, an expansion without the full world being opened up would be utterly ridiculous time/money wise.

For me, the Irony is, they were able to do it for Guild Wars, which ran on Lower end machines, and had less players, so had less cash to play with.

Now they have Millions of subscribers, a simpler skills system to balance ( and can’t)… less classes, and for some reason, they cannot or will not get the resources to put out a decent expansion?

Why not? The Anet that put out Guild Wars managed to do a LOT more with a LOT less.

I sincerely doubt it’s Not because they are not able, and I just think that they either are not willing, or do not feel they need to….

Maybe they grew complacent?

As long as we keep shopping at the gem store, no need to Put out an expansion i guess.

Remember though, Anet is owned by NC Soft. So in order for Anet to make money, NC Soft has to make money. The only games made by Anet is the GW franchise. While NC Soft has made other games and lost money during and after GW because there was no big subscription base to keep them afloat like Blizzard and WoW. Not to mention the Anet of old is not the Anet of now. It’s been a few years, business philosophies change, gaming interests change. NC soft couldn’t release something new with it’s premier franchise: GW in the middle of an MMO cluster-kitten and lose face.

While WoW was going strong NC Soft released a chunk of MMO’s (Lineage, Aion, City of Heroes, City of Villains and others) that inevitably competed against Blizzard and didn’t stand up. Those games lost money when they went F2P because the business model of micro-transactions wasn’t fully embraced by the gaming community. So now Anet has to rely on game sales and gem store in order to make it’s money unless they get a budget increase from NC Soft.

Nerelith.7360:

Tobias, the facts are that whilr you may have grown tired of your ranger, your Mesmer, your elementalist, etc etc etc somwhere out there, is a player that likes theirs.

I still like my ranger. I just am tired of him is all. Playing him is, as I said, something like wearing an old suit I know intimately. Or pulling out my old deck of Magic cards and knowing exactly how to play the opening hand I draw. That doesn’t mean I don’t put the deck back on the shelf for a few weeks/months.

As long as there are enought players that like Playing their rangers, their mesmer, their elemetalist, etc etc… there are players that have not " exhausted" the content that was here on release.

And yet . . . there are people who say they have. You can figure out what they mean by that, because I don’t have much interest in trying to speak for others I don’t agree with.

I tried to appeal to you, in terms I thought you might understand. But what I realize is, i just need to explain that while you may be tired of every class, and every weapon, and every skill..( judging from your responses to me..I simply wonder if you are serious, or if you have another agenda?), and therefore you personally may have “exhausted” all the content that came on release. There are people that haven’t.

And there are people who have, and will burn through content just as fast the next time around. As if there’s some race to get to the end, some prize for being first to a race nobody is keeping the scoring for.

I can understand the desire to latch on to the " Paid expansions suck, because we will all exhaust the content." but the fact is, the type of content that comes with paid expansions… New Professions, new weapons, new skills, new features…. because of their very nature, are only exhausted when enough players get exhausted of the game…that they close the servers.

I can’t disagree with the logic here. However, I can disagree with the sentiment and spirit of what is being said. People can, do, and have gotten tired of content in expansions swiftly enough in the past.

Sure, if you’re still playing, you haven’t technically “used up” all of the content. But that’s because we’re not talking of a finite measurement. If you can show me a gram of raiding, or a liter of farming, I might consider it possible to “use up” a game in the traditional sense of it.

But what we’re talking about is not “you haven’t gotten to the end of the Falhammer Hall instance so you’re not done with the content” versus “I have no more desire to even set foot in there” in terms of “exhausting content”.

I realize you are different, but…. there are players that play professions and do not exhaust professions, until they get so tired of the game that they move onto something else. The same for skills, and weapons.

I’m not different in that respect, but I am different in the respect of getting tired enough to just step back and try something else. Either in the same game, or to try another game for a while. I have Minecraft – I can always find something to kill time until my interest returns.

You need to claim that " Oh content in a paid for expansion will be exhausted in a month" but that only applies to the type of content that Anet has been releasing in it’s " Living Story" and that it says is " expansion-like."

In My opinion, this argument is a non-argument, and is rather disingenuous at best.

As such, you can keep making it if you wish, personally I do not see it as a real issue.

I do apologize, I should have stated myself clearer.

I think the content will be termed “exhausted” in a month by the same people who claim there is nothing left to do currently.

Sorry for the mistake.

Shivan.9438:

Creating an expansion isn’t easy or time/cost effective.

Look how long it took to make GW2 with all of it’s bugs, glitches, exploits, etc still in the game even after all the changes it went through in the betas. To create an expansion that would offer content to keep veterans playing would take a massive amount of time and resources that Anet obviously doesn’t have or are willing or able to spend. If so, core GW2 would be better than it is now.

Not to mention which expansion to make?
Cantha? – It’s been done. But there’s a lot of changes to make. It’s been 200+ years. What’s happened to the Jade Sea? Echovald Forrest? The Celestial Ministry? The damage from the Afflicted? Is it time/cost effective to re-write changes to make the expansion worth developing?

Elonia? – Is there enough pre-existing lore/content to make the expansion worth it without having to write more or retcon for the sake of selling it?

Plus there are still places in Tryia that are closed off, but explorable in GW1. Crystal Desert, more of the Shiverpeaks. And this is main land Tyria, not having to cross the ocean to get to Cantha. The developers have their hands full with just the core game, an expansion without the full world being opened up would be utterly ridiculous time/money wise.

Gonna play “Devil’s Advocate” here. It’s not the resources required that makes me think we should have had at least the equivalent of an expansion it’s the time. Other MMOs have been able to produce expansions at a 2yr rate. A-Net were able to produce new “stand-alone campaigns” at a rate of 6 months per. A-Net now has more employees(hopefully coders/game designers) than they had when Faction sand NIghtfall came out.

I think the problem is not a Developer issue but a publisher one. A-Net now is beholden to NCSoft to make them money. NCSoft being a Korean company has “asked” A-Net to make GW2 into a “Asain cash-shop”. Hence why we are seeing all the “China-roll-out features” being introduced to the NA/EU communities wit this “Feature Patch”.

I think if A-Net could publish GW2 on it’s own we’d be seeing what we had with GW. An innovative game that was as much about the community as it was about the money.

A paid expansion would be an interesting idea, but it is just simply to big of a commitment for Arenanet, who have too small of a budget. They need to begin trickling in “expansion” perks (e.g. New races, profession, weapons, etc.) into the living story. The living story does not simply have to focus on a changing world, such as with lions arch, but possibly expand the world. An example, and keep in mind this is just an example and not the definitive story the game should take, would be to send the player with a small group to a new island to establish a new capitol. Then as later stories are released, the group could delve deeper into the island and gain the trust of the local inhabitants, opening them as a playable race. If Anet were to be really ambitious, they could take the certain skills the new race has mastered and develop a new profession out of them. Many people don’t consider how many avenues the living story model has to open new content and even “expansion” like content, it’s more or less the matter of an under budgeted game.
Tl;dr: Anet has options, but funds are an issue.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I can’t disagree with the logic here. However, I can disagree with the sentiment and spirit of what is being said. People can, do, and have gotten tired of content in expansions swiftly enough in the past.

Sure, if you’re still playing, you haven’t technically “used up” all of the content. But that’s because we’re not talking of a finite measurement. If you can show me a gram of raiding, or a liter of farming, I might consider it possible to “use up” a game in the traditional sense of it.

But what we’re talking about is not “you haven’t gotten to the end of the Falhammer Hall instance so you’re not done with the content” versus “I have no more desire to even set foot in there” in terms of “exhausting content”.

I realize you are different, but…. there are players that play professions and do not exhaust professions, until they get so tired of the game that they move onto something else. The same for skills, and weapons.

I’m not different in that respect, but I am different in the respect of getting tired enough to just step back and try something else. Either in the same game, or to try another game for a while. I have Minecraft – I can always find something to kill time until my interest returns.

You need to claim that " Oh content in a paid for expansion will be exhausted in a month" but that only applies to the type of content that Anet has been releasing in it’s " Living Story" and that it says is " expansion-like."

In My opinion, this argument is a non-argument, and is rather disingenuous at best.

As such, you can keep making it if you wish, personally I do not see it as a real issue.

I do apologize, I should have stated myself clearer.

I think the content will be termed “exhausted” in a month by the same people who claim there is nothing left to do currently.

Sorry for the mistake.

I think that this group that claims " there is nothing left to do currently" need to rethink things and put it in a different perspective. Saying “There is nothing left to do currently” seems to strongly imply that there is nothing left to do for anyone. And since this group has " exhausted" the content that was available since release…. " skills, professions, weapons, traits." That everyone else, would also be exhausted of this content. I do not believe that this group speaks for everyone.

It’s not " There is Nothing left to do."

it’s

“There is nothing left to do for them” This group needs to stop thinking they speak for everyone, and speak only for themselves.

There are two types of players as I see it, those that are still enjoying the content that was here on release… the professions, the weapons, the skills and traits, but would like more variety now that 2 years has passed, they enjoy the game, but want it expanded with more professions, more weapons, more skills, more traits.

There is also a group that it seems from what you are saying… exhaust that type of content. Now in general, when a player exhausts this type of content… they move on to another game. or… they wait until an expansion is released, and Play the expansion.

What you seem to be arguing is that since you would be exhausted of that type of content, no one should have it. Since you do not consider it worth the expence, since you don’t think it’s a good expenditure of your cash, because you would get exhausted eventually…. no one should be offered the option.

Did I misunderstand you, or are you saying that since you personally, do not consider it a good financial decision to purchase an expansion, and you do not desire to be excluded out by your decision, then everyone else that might consider it a good purchase has to be denied?

If you do not wish to buy an expansion, you do not have to. But if you choose not to, then you choose to exclude yourself from the content contained. That is not a reason to deny those of us that wish to have a paid expansion.

“Since I do not consider it worth it, to pay for a Box at the stadium, and I do not wish that those that do consider it wortwhile to experience something I cannot experience, no one should have the option of renting a Box at the stadium”

Is this what you are saying?

No thanks. Expansions attract people who obsess over “finishing” the “content” quickly. After 2-5 weeks, they leave.

I prefer the new system introduced (sort of) by GW2: gradually and organically add new foes, new zones, and other new content.

I would like to see more dungeons, a really big change to WvW, and other things that are traditionally associated with an expansion. But for the next year, I’m happy with how things are progressing.

Nerelith.7360:

How does One exhaust new weapons? Anyone exhaust their greatsword yet? Or their Short bow? Maybe the staff has been exhausted?

How does One exhaust new skills? How many thieves have exhausted Cloak n dagger? Or How many mesmers have exhausted Null field?

New Maps can be exhausted, New Quests can be exhausted, even new Boss mobs can be exhausted. And isn’t this what Living Story delivers?

Dunno about all of those but I might have exhausted this female Charr here. It’s not as exciting logging in to her and taking her for a ride…exploring around Southsun on her is like throwing a Quaggan down a Canyon XD

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Show of hands, who here would want to see two new professions before they fix all those mesmer bugs on list? Or before we can actually get engineers to a point they don’t feel like the unfavorite stepchild? How about an expansion which contains nothing which would actually impact WvW at all but give tons of stuff to those who play in the PvE . . .

~raises hand~

But ask yourself; are the things you list so debilitating that it requires the equivalent of the devs’ full attention to address? Can you still log onto those professions and succeed?

Granted, I do think more content should be added for WvW as well, but for the people like me, that have craved variety since last year, the only thing I’ve had to look forward to are skins, many of which I don’t like or are simply silly (and everybody gets benefit from those). I’d like some new skills for my Elementalist over just slight tweaks to numbers and text descriptions.

Leo G.4501:

Nerelith.7360:

How does One exhaust new weapons? Anyone exhaust their greatsword yet? Or their Short bow? Maybe the staff has been exhausted?

How does One exhaust new skills? How many thieves have exhausted Cloak n dagger? Or How many mesmers have exhausted Null field?

New Maps can be exhausted, New Quests can be exhausted, even new Boss mobs can be exhausted. And isn’t this what Living Story delivers?

Dunno about all of those but I might have exhausted this female Charr here. It’s not as exciting logging in to her and taking her for a ride…exploring around Southsun on her is like throwing a Quaggan down a Canyon XD

It seems to me that you are exhausted by the core game. If you have no desire to play any profession, experience any weapon, or skill… are not enjoying any armor set, runes, weapon set,…sigils, traits…..

If this applies to you, this is the player that usually most desires an expansion.

Now. Maybe you are the type of player that doesn’t desire an expansion. or simply feels that an expansion will simply be similarly exhausted.

If this is so, I do not understand why Living Story would have anything to appeal to you, after all, what does it matter what quests or mobs you face, or how new the map is, if you are exhausted of the very professions , weapons, skills, armor, runes, sigils and traits you would need to use with which to engage this new living story content?

This is the type of player that expansions are intended for. Players that are tired of the old professions, …give them a couple of new ones to play.

Players tired of the old weapons… give them new weapons.

Now, it is true that this type of player may be easily exhausted of the new content as well. This type of player needs to ask themselves. " is this expansion worth my money for me?" It is Possible you might consider the limited time that this new content might appeal to you to be worth it.

On the other hand, maybe you aren’t willing to pay for a new expansion and know it. Then do not buy it if it is offered. There are many of us that will pay for it, and enjoy it. Simply because players exist that would derive zero benefit from a paid expansion, and feel that the game itself has been exhausted, doesn’t mean that those of us willing to pay for an expansion should be denied.

If the core game itself has been exhausted, and you see no appeal in an expansion that includes more professions, more skills, more weapons, more traits, etc…. maybe instead of being here saying " No, I’ll be exhausted fast, it’s Not worth My money, and I do not want to be excluded from new content." ( No idea why this would concern you if you are in fact tired of the professions, weapons, skills, traits….etc. Reminds me a Bit of the Dog in the manger. " I don’t want it, therefore you shouldn’t have it!" or is it the paid part you object to?) maybe the time has come to move on? Find a new game to play?

Edit:

Leo G.4501:

I’d like some new skills for my Elementalist over just slight tweaks to numbers and text descriptions.

I agree. I rather have new weapons and new skills for my professions or new peofessions to play, rather than have some bug that doesn’t affect how i play slow the works down. " oh no…. that trait that gives me 3 seconds of vigor when i dodge is broken…. do NOT give me new weapons, or professions til this is fixed!!!"

Really? lol.

I think the argument that an expansion is a bad idea because it would pull Anet from giving us things to do on a bi-weekly basis is not really that strong.
The things they give us, an average players completes in 2 hours, or so, and then he or she goes back to the same old – fractal/champion/ecto/world boss grind for the rest of the 2 weeks.

For example, right now, we haven’t had any new content since August 12. On 9th, the feature pack will arrive, which also isn’t content, those are just changes to the old systems. Next stop, WvW tournament, which again, is not new content, it’s going back to the same old WvW, but this time with less achievements to complete than before.
So, frankly speaking, we will be somewhere around 2-3 months without new content.
Can you honestly say that something has changed for you? Do you feel more bored, because we won’t see Braham, Taimi and other forgettable, one dimensional characters Anet has created until the Fall?
I certainly don’t.
Absolutely nothing would change if we were to wait a couple more months without any new cheesy episodes that introduce literally nothing for people who aren’t lore freaks.

Tomas.5029:

I think the argument that an expansion is a bad idea because it would pull Anet from giving us things to do on a bi-weekly basis is not really that strong.
The things they give us, an average players completes in 2 hours, or so, and then he or she goes back to the same old – fractal/champion/ecto/world boss grind for the rest of the 2 weeks.

For example, right now, we haven’t had any new content since August 12. On 9th, the feature pack will arrive, which also isn’t content, those are just changes to the old systems. Next stop, WvW tournament, which again, is not new content, it’s going back to the same old WvW, but this time with less achievements to complete than before.
So, frankly speaking, we will be somewhere around 2-3 months without new content.
Can you honestly say that something has changed for you? Do you feel more bored, because we won’t see Braham, Taimi and other forgettable, one dimensional characters Anet has created until the Fall?
I certainly don’t.
Absolutely nothing would change if we were to wait a couple more months without any new cheesy episodes that introduce literally nothing for people who aren’t lore freaks.

+1 QFT. Living Story does not appeal to everyone. But I did get a chance to see an interview on youtube that a couple of the developers gave to Gamemag.

According to them, it’s all 110 % about Living Story.

Someone should clue them in, that while there are players that love Living Story, there are also players that don’t bother with Living Story.

For those that don’t. it Just feels that the whole.." we would Love to look into pre-cursor crafting, I mean it’s like… it has a lot of potential…but it’s not what we are focusing on at the moment…let me tell you about Living Story."

/me facepalms.

Naus the Gobbo.5172:

I personally think that a paid expansion would do more harm than good at this point.

People have gotten used to free content every 2 weeks, and if they suddenly had to wait 6+ months without content and then be forced to pay for it they most likely wouldn’t like it too much.

ArenaNet have gotten themselves into this “mess” of the Living Story. Now they either prove that it actually IS like an expansion, or they call defeat and will lose most of their playerbase since people won’t stay with a company that doesn’t know what it is doing.

The thing is, new content is expensive. I am betting the reason we don’t see much big content in the updates is that its not justifiable financially. An expansion would provide enough cash to actually add new dungeons and new zones.

Nerelith.7360:

Leo G.4501:

Nerelith.7360:

How does One exhaust new weapons? Anyone exhaust their greatsword yet? Or their Short bow? Maybe the staff has been exhausted?

How does One exhaust new skills? How many thieves have exhausted Cloak n dagger? Or How many mesmers have exhausted Null field?

New Maps can be exhausted, New Quests can be exhausted, even new Boss mobs can be exhausted. And isn’t this what Living Story delivers?

Dunno about all of those but I might have exhausted this female Charr here. It’s not as exciting logging in to her and taking her for a ride…exploring around Southsun on her is like throwing a Quaggan down a Canyon XD

It seems to me that you are exhausted by the core game. If you have no desire to play any profession, experience any weapon, or skill… are not enjoying any armor set, runes, weapon set,…sigils, traits…..

If this applies to you, this is the player that usually most desires an expansion.

I was joking :P

I don’t even have a female Charr character but I do like the look of female Charr…I just don’t have a profession I want to play one as since all the professions I like to play, I already rolled one as something else. Although I’m starting to like the look of Thief, but I can’t very well roll a medium-armor Charr! Are you mad!?!

As for the type of player I am, I very much would like an expansion and wouldn’t mind paying cash for one. I want variety in playstyle and looks and I will dabble in any aspects of the game (dungeons, PvP, WvW, etc) so long as you don’t expect me to be serious. If an expansion format isn’t ideal, then introduce things in another way, but I would very much like new weapons, weapon skills, classes, races, or some combination.

I don’t complain about not having it either. If I get bored with something, I see no problem putting something down and going on a vacation for a few months (or prior to last month, a whole year vacation).

I’m enjoying the game again right now. I just foresee that, eventually, I’ll get bored again and need to take several months vacation again. And when I come back, I’m crossing my fingers for the stuff I want to be there.

Nerelith.7360:

Tomas.5029:

I think the argument that an expansion is a bad idea because it would pull Anet from giving us things to do on a bi-weekly basis is not really that strong.
The things they give us, an average players completes in 2 hours, or so, and then he or she goes back to the same old – fractal/champion/ecto/world boss grind for the rest of the 2 weeks.

For example, right now, we haven’t had any new content since August 12. On 9th, the feature pack will arrive, which also isn’t content, those are just changes to the old systems. Next stop, WvW tournament, which again, is not new content, it’s going back to the same old WvW, but this time with less achievements to complete than before.
So, frankly speaking, we will be somewhere around 2-3 months without new content.
Can you honestly say that something has changed for you? Do you feel more bored, because we won’t see Braham, Taimi and other forgettable, one dimensional characters Anet has created until the Fall?
I certainly don’t.
Absolutely nothing would change if we were to wait a couple more months without any new cheesy episodes that introduce literally nothing for people who aren’t lore freaks.

+1 QFT. Living Story does not appeal to everyone. But I did get a chance to see an interview on youtube that a couple of the developers gave to Gamemag.

According to them, it’s all 110 % about Living Story.

Someone should clue them in, that while there are players that love Living Story, there are also players that don’t bother with Living Story.

For those that don’t. it Just feels that the whole.." we would Love to look into pre-cursor crafting, I mean it’s like… it has a lot of potential…but it’s not what we are focusing on at the moment…let me tell you about Living Story."

/me facepalms.

Now, if the devs somehow shift the Living Story to initiate more interaction with another race that ends up introducing that race as playable, I would LOVE the Living Story (instead of just ‘meh’ about it). You can even lock the race behind a temporary in-game event. If I miss the even? Oh well, so long as you give me the option to purchase the race unlock, I will be happy all the same.

If that were to happen, I would feel the Living Story can possibly have content I’ll be able to use and enjoy even if the events involved are gone.

sirian.4981:

Naus the Gobbo.5172:

I personally think that a paid expansion would do more harm than good at this point.

People have gotten used to free content every 2 weeks, and if they suddenly had to wait 6+ months without content and then be forced to pay for it they most likely wouldn’t like it too much.

ArenaNet have gotten themselves into this “mess” of the Living Story. Now they either prove that it actually IS like an expansion, or they call defeat and will lose most of their playerbase since people won’t stay with a company that doesn’t know what it is doing.

The thing is, new content is expensive. I am betting the reason we don’t see much big content in the updates is that its not justifiable financially. An expansion would provide enough cash to actually add new dungeons and new zones.

I can tell you right now, if all an expansion included was new dungeons and new zones, I would not pay a dime for it. Neither new dungeons nor new zones expand how i play gw2.

Before I spend a dime on an expansion it would have to include either new professions, new races, new skills… new weapons… etc…

THAT type of expansion is what comes with a paid for expansion. new maps?…New dungeons? new zones? They can do that with an update for free.

Nerelith.7360:

If you do not wish to buy an expansion, you do not have to. But if you choose not to, then you choose to exclude yourself from the content contained. That is not a reason to deny those of us that wish to have a paid expansion.

“Since I do not consider it worth it, to pay for a Box at the stadium, and I do not wish that those that do consider it wortwhile to experience something I cannot experience, no one should have the option of renting a Box at the stadium”

Is this what you are saying?

No, it’s not. But you might as well assume that is what I am saying since you are trying to boil it all down to a soundbyte you construct to make your point.

What I am saying is the same thing I said at the start of this thread: I do not think an expansion will fix anything, or solve any issues with how the players feel. I have no personal objection to an expansion. I said I would purchase it if it came out, in fact. (Twice.)

But it’s, in my view, not going to solve what people expect it to solve.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

43508kittenelith.7360:

If you do not wish to buy an expansion, you do not have to. But if you choose not to, then you choose to exclude yourself from the content contained. That is not a reason to deny those of us that wish to have a paid expansion.

“Since I do not consider it worth it, to pay for a Box at the stadium, and I do not wish that those that do consider it wortwhile to experience something I cannot experience, no one should have the option of renting a Box at the stadium”

Is this what you are saying?

No, it’s not. But you might as well assume that is what I am saying since you are trying to boil it all down to a soundbyte you construct to make your point.

What I am saying is the same thing I said at the start of this thread: I do not think an expansion will fix anything, or solve any issues with how the players feel. I have no personal objection to an expansion. I said I would purchase it if it came out, in fact. (Twice.)

But it’s, in my view, not going to solve what people expect it to solve.

It may Not solve it for you. But that doesn’t mean it won’t solve it for me. And while there may be a few Players that say " I exhausted the content …now what?" I feel they are seeing the content that is usually included with living story, " …new maps, new quests, new zones." is what is exhausted.

What is included in a paid expansion " new professions, new weapons, new skills, new traits, new races." is only exhausted for the players that tire of playing the game.

The thing is, just because these players may not consider an expansion a solution for them, does not mean it is not a solution for others.

Because one group does not see this as a solution for them. is Not a reason to deny those of us that see it as a solution, of a paid expansion.

If you do not find a paid expansion to be cost effective for you, do not buy it. But at the same time understand, if you are excluded from the content it was a decision you made. Those of us that see it as a solution for us, will buy it.

“Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good.” <Voltaire>

NCSoft does not have to worry about concurrency…but must worry about retention.

People have a weird idea about the corporate goals of NCSoft. People appear to think NCSoft is concerned about concurrency (numbers playing), difficulty (a subset of concurrency, i.e. the concurrency of the extreme right hand side of the Normal Distribution Curve). To be honest, because of the business model NCSoft doesn’t care about any of this. The only thing NCSoft has to be concerned with is the playerbase’s willingness to spend money on this project, i.e. retention. There are only 2 metrics that NCSoft should be concerned about: 1. What are the profits of the gem store and 2. What % of people are logging in biweekly for the new content.

These two metrics would be the hallmark to the health of this business model, since retention leads to further purchases, while concurrency leads to higher costs.

The income of the gem store is what keeps things going. It’s the replacement of the subscription. It’s the soap in the soap opera. It’s what convinced NCSoft to try this model to begin with. Tying in fluff/fair items to the story in a way that the playerbase will support it.

Sometimes the devs produce something that hits a sour note. When this occurs I always wonder if this is the devs fault or the monetization departments fault. I can see this discussion happening:

“Hey look at this great idea the community had” says the dev.

“Ooo that is a good idea, but we are going to monetize it in this way….which will make it easier to convince my boss to spend the money on the assets to create that idea” says the those in monetization.

This tension between the game creator and the publisher can be found in many forms, including chefs and kitchen managers. It can be a match made in heaven or a living hell where either person could easily murder their counterpart and not feel guilty over it. When you add a skeptical playerbase always looking for the cheat (because we all know, no matter the game, if you ain’t cheating, you ain’t playing hard enough), it’s amazing any developer can do anything that anyone can play.

So now that we have this balancing act happening, NCSoft has to worry about one other thing, selling more copies of the games. The MMO world has only done this successfully one way, selling expansions. Again GW2 is different in this. They do not need to sell an expansion, not now or ever. They just need to sell the original box, plus the past season content, for those that missed it AND desire to play it. The constant drum beat of new content every two weeks certainly makes people listen and once they buy the game a rational person will always check in every two weeks to get free content. The cost of replacing an episode or 2 is not prohibitive. This is the penny serial writ large!

So my suggestion is forget about an expansion…it is not needed. Keep fighting for fairness in the Gem Store that is a neccessity. If you decide that the game is going in a different direction than your desires, then the only way to show your dissatisfaction is to leave, remove it, and never come back. To do otherwise is supporting NCSoft/Anet in this model since logging back in is the retention metric. Anyone who leaves the game entirely, unless they were a huge whale at the store doesn’t hurt the model at all since NCSoft/Arenanet have already received payment for your participation and magnanimously allow you to come back with a truly minimal barrier to entry for you with the added corporate benefit that any 1 new player will replace any normal players purchases in the gem store for a few months.

TLDR; NCSoft, due to the nature of GW2 payment model needs people to purchase, the game and items from the Gem Store. They do not need to invest in an expansion as long as profitability is maintained. The only way they can see if this is holding true, isn’t related to the numbers of people actively playing, but by those willing to login for ‘free content’ and how profitable the Gem Store remains.

@Roybe

Just wanted to thank you for taking the time to post this, I found it most educational.

The only thing I can say about this, is that while entertainment is owned by the money-men, it is created by artists. Unless the creator has completely sold his or her soul to the money-men that is.

You usually see it when a game that everyone else says will never make money gets published anyway. You also see it in quirky games that defy all money-man logic. And still find a following.

It’s watching a Movie made by an Indie company, it’s reading a novel not on the top ten best-seller list.

It’s buying a small game that dared to say " you can have an awesome gaming experience in an MMO without a subscription fee. "

The irony.

I realize that since the success of World of Warcraft the money-men dominate the creation and distribution of MMO’s. But they only do so because we the players acquiesce. As you said…. those of us that continue to log in, and play, give NCSoft the message that all is fine, as those that continue complaining, but continue buying from the gem store.

As such, each of us needs to ask ourselves." what do we want out of our MMO’s?" " Is this company providing it?" If they are you are golden, but if deep down you feel that it’s Not? Then you have questions to ask yourself. We do need to get it in our heads that we are voting with our wallet, even when we don’t intend to, and a lot of times, our wallet is voting things our mouth speaks against. When this happens we need to recognize that what we speak with our lips is being drowned out by what we scream with our money.

Nerelith.7360:

THAT type of expansion is what comes with a paid for expansion. new maps?…New dungeons? new zones? They can do that with an update for free.

Theoretically, that can be done with the Living Story as well. I’ll accept that it hasn’t (yet), but I see no reason why it’s impossible.

I mean, that’s why I have such a long leash with the LS, I think. There’s a lot it CAN do. The ability to add new skills, for example, HAS been done… just currently they’ve all been healing skills (I suspect because they wanted to test the water with something that wouldn’t break the precious game balance they are so obsessed with).

There’s really no reason it CAN’T add a new race (or even a new profession), except the limitations set by the developers. And frankly, if they aren’t keen on adding particular things, they likely aren’t going to be particularly inclined to do so as part of an expansion either.

chemiclord.3978:

Nerelith.7360:

THAT type of expansion is what comes with a paid for expansion. new maps?…New dungeons? new zones? They can do that with an update for free.

Theoretically, that can be done with the Living Story as well. I’ll accept that it hasn’t (yet), but I see no reason why it’s impossible.

I mean, that’s why I have such a long leash with the LS, I think. There’s a lot it CAN do. The ability to add new skills, for example, HAS been done… just currently they’ve all been healing skills (I suspect because they wanted to test the water with something that wouldn’t break the precious game balance they are so obsessed with).

There’s really no reason it CAN’T add a new race (or even a new profession), except the limitations set by the developers. And frankly, if they aren’t keen on adding particular things, they likely aren’t going to be particularly inclined to do so as part of an expansion either.

I think we are understanding each other better here. See the thing is… I do not wish to do Living story, to play a new Profession. I don’t want to have to do Living Story, to access new weapons.

So if they need Living story to release this type of content, i will not get access to it. As someone said before… the player-base is being divided by Living Story, by those that do it..the ones that do not..( me) are excluding themselves from Living Story content.

I want to be able to log in… and CREATE a new profession, Not play an Old character in living story, that for that chapter suddenly has access to new skills.

Anyway. While I can understand that this type of “expansion” content MIGHT be a part of Living Story, even if it is, it is Not gonna be In a way that I or players Like me would be accessing. I want a new profession I can play from level 1. Not a profession my level 80 gets to play as Long as they do the Living story chapter that gives her the oppurtunity to access the new skills etc…etc…

Just…meh.

The issue I’m have with the “needs an expansion” argument is that if they aren’t keen on adding a new profession, for example (which I believe Arena.net has gone on record saying they aren’t), I don’t see how packaging it as an expansion will make them any more inclined to do so. You’re just slapping a price tag on something arbitrarily, and still not going to get what you’re looking for.

The argument seems based on an assumption (that expansions give you [x], [y], and [z]), when I see very little reason to believe a GW2 expansion inherently would include those things. I’m just… willing to wait it out, I guess.

Nerelith.7360:

@Roybe

Just wanted to thank you for taking the time to post this, I found it most educational.

The only thing I can say about this, is that while entertainment is owned by the money-men, it is created by artists. Unless the creator has completely sold his or her soul to the money-men that is.

And this point is where I am hoping that Arenanet can continue to withstand the pressures from their bosses. Although I agree that this can be a 2 way street, as pressures continue to increase for profitability gains against the develeopers vision, it becomes harder for them to push for their vision (Think of it this way, a chef wants to make a wonderful beef dish, but the manager is only willing to by him Spam, due to profitability). I see this not a selling out to the powers that be (that actually happened when the primary officers sold Arenanet to NCSoft..and worse when NCSoft sold Nexon a pretty large say on the direction of NCSoft(a private 15% sale of stock is nothing to sneeze at) but a daily battle that is being fought in a long and protracted war. The fact that they have been able to hold on to as much of the artistic license AND influence within the Gem Store is a huge nod to their ability to negotiate on their, as well as our, behalf, with profitability being on their side. I am concerned at what profit point NCSoft steps in, drops the hammer and says, ‘this isn’t working, you must do it our way now.’
Evon Gnashblade vs. the Consortium indeed!

Roybe.5896:

Nerelith.7360:

@Roybe

Just wanted to thank you for taking the time to post this, I found it most educational.

The only thing I can say about this, is that while entertainment is owned by the money-men, it is created by artists. Unless the creator has completely sold his or her soul to the money-men that is.

And this point is where I am hoping that Arenanet can continue to withstand the pressures from their bosses. Although I agree that this can be a 2 way street, as pressures continue to increase for profitability gains against the develeopers vision, it becomes harder for them to push for their vision (Think of it this way, a chef wants to make a wonderful beef dish, but the manager is only willing to by him Spam, due to profitability). I see this not a selling out to the powers that be (that actually happened when the primary officers sold Arenanet to NCSoft..and worse when NCSoft sold Nexon a pretty large say on the direction of NCSoft(a private 15% sale of stock is nothing to sneeze at) but a daily battle that is being fought in a long and protracted war. The fact that they have been able to hold on to as much of the artistic license AND influence within the Gem Store is a huge nod to their ability to negotiate on their, as well as our, behalf, with profitability being on their side. I am concerned at what profit point NCSoft steps in, drops the hammer and says, ‘this isn’t working, you must do it our way now.’
Evon Gnashblade vs. the Consortium indeed!

lol… well. At this point all I can do is point back to the Anet of old. The Anet that launched an awesome experiment at the time. An MMO without a subscription price that saught to maintain AAA standards.

I can hope they look back, and remember what brought many of us to this new vehicle. And remember we came with expectations.

I know, Most of the Guild wars crowd probably left ages ago. But…

To follow your analogy. The chef that wishes eo serve awesome Beef dishes, and who’se Boss gives him spam to work with….

He needs to ask himself…" why am i Putting up with this crappy spam?" If he says " it pays the bills" No matter how much he believes he is engaged In a " day to day war." … that is all illusion, he’s sold out.

On the other hand…the customer at this restaurant, that is being served Spam…. I am sure it is the best spam dish ever prepared, well seasoned etc….but ..why is she eating there? The Chef is either capable of better, and ill-serving her, or ..is not capable of better… and she need sto ask herself.." hmmm I heard there is a new restaurant opening next month Just down the block… fact is..this Thursday they are having a " pre-opening"… Might wanna check out if their meat dishes are spam filled?"

Roybe.5896:

Nerelith.7360:

@Roybe

Just wanted to thank you for taking the time to post this, I found it most educational.

The only thing I can say about this, is that while entertainment is owned by the money-men, it is created by artists. Unless the creator has completely sold his or her soul to the money-men that is.

And this point is where I am hoping that Arenanet can continue to withstand the pressures from their bosses. Although I agree that this can be a 2 way street, as pressures continue to increase for profitability gains against the develeopers vision, it becomes harder for them to push for their vision (Think of it this way, a chef wants to make a wonderful beef dish, but the manager is only willing to by him Spam, due to profitability). I see this not a selling out to the powers that be (that actually happened when the primary officers sold Arenanet to NCSoft..and worse when NCSoft sold Nexon a pretty large say on the direction of NCSoft(a private 15% sale of stock is nothing to sneeze at) but a daily battle that is being fought in a long and protracted war. The fact that they have been able to hold on to as much of the artistic license AND influence within the Gem Store is a huge nod to their ability to negotiate on their, as well as our, behalf, with profitability being on their side. I am concerned at what profit point NCSoft steps in, drops the hammer and says, ‘this isn’t working, you must do it our way now.’
Evon Gnashblade vs. the Consortium indeed!

Well most of the original GW2 design team has been fired or quit by now, so the game really is controlled by moneymen. They have no issue with firing artists if they don’t perform. I think this is the reason there is such a large disconnected between current content and early content.

sirian.4981:

Roybe.5896:

Nerelith.7360:

@Roybe

Just wanted to thank you for taking the time to post this, I found it most educational.

The only thing I can say about this, is that while entertainment is owned by the money-men, it is created by artists. Unless the creator has completely sold his or her soul to the money-men that is.

And this point is where I am hoping that Arenanet can continue to withstand the pressures from their bosses. Although I agree that this can be a 2 way street, as pressures continue to increase for profitability gains against the develeopers vision, it becomes harder for them to push for their vision (Think of it this way, a chef wants to make a wonderful beef dish, but the manager is only willing to by him Spam, due to profitability). I see this not a selling out to the powers that be (that actually happened when the primary officers sold Arenanet to NCSoft..and worse when NCSoft sold Nexon a pretty large say on the direction of NCSoft(a private 15% sale of stock is nothing to sneeze at) but a daily battle that is being fought in a long and protracted war. The fact that they have been able to hold on to as much of the artistic license AND influence within the Gem Store is a huge nod to their ability to negotiate on their, as well as our, behalf, with profitability being on their side. I am concerned at what profit point NCSoft steps in, drops the hammer and says, ‘this isn’t working, you must do it our way now.’
Evon Gnashblade vs. the Consortium indeed!

Well most of the original GW2 design team has been fired or quit by now, so the game really is controlled by moneymen. They have no issue with firing artists if they don’t perform. I think this is the reason there is such a large disconnected between current content and early content.

Mike O’brien is the last man standing!

sirian.4981:

Roybe.5896:

Nerelith.7360:

@Roybe

Just wanted to thank you for taking the time to post this, I found it most educational.

The only thing I can say about this, is that while entertainment is owned by the money-men, it is created by artists. Unless the creator has completely sold his or her soul to the money-men that is.

And this point is where I am hoping that Arenanet can continue to withstand the pressures from their bosses. Although I agree that this can be a 2 way street, as pressures continue to increase for profitability gains against the develeopers vision, it becomes harder for them to push for their vision (Think of it this way, a chef wants to make a wonderful beef dish, but the manager is only willing to by him Spam, due to profitability). I see this not a selling out to the powers that be (that actually happened when the primary officers sold Arenanet to NCSoft..and worse when NCSoft sold Nexon a pretty large say on the direction of NCSoft(a private 15% sale of stock is nothing to sneeze at) but a daily battle that is being fought in a long and protracted war. The fact that they have been able to hold on to as much of the artistic license AND influence within the Gem Store is a huge nod to their ability to negotiate on their, as well as our, behalf, with profitability being on their side. I am concerned at what profit point NCSoft steps in, drops the hammer and says, ‘this isn’t working, you must do it our way now.’
Evon Gnashblade vs. the Consortium indeed!

Well most of the original GW2 design team has been fired or quit by now, so the game really is controlled by moneymen. They have no issue with firing artists if they don’t perform. I think this is the reason there is such a large disconnected between current content and early content.

It is sad, I remember when the game was released I actually spend HOURS playing. I would Look foreward to logging on. I played the game straight. Not sure if i can even Point to what has actually been changed…. all I know is…Now the game is Not as fun to play.

it seems that a LOT has been moved to the gem store. The biggest complaint I have is traits. Used to be you levelled up..bought a cheap book, and bam..all the traits were there. Now they coupled a GOOD thing… making it so you need to explore content, to unlock traits…. with a Bad thing….they made the content you need to unlock prohibitive, while giving you the option to simply use gold to BUY the traits….

Gold they sell for gems which you buy with cash.

/me sighs…. I can see how this was implemented mostly because they think this is what the chinese audience will like. No idea, since I don’t Know how Chinese players consume their MMO’s, I read somewhere that either Korea, or japan, players pay for MMO’s By the Minute? what?

I agree, the Money-men have won this one. Sad. I Understand the artist needs the businessman, but it is always a shame when the artist is crushed by the business man.

edit:

Guess that they should teach students a fable by Aesop, another artist, “The goose that lays Golden eggs” in Business school?

Nerelith.7360:

sirian.4981:

Roybe.5896:

Nerelith.7360:

@Roybe

Just wanted to thank you for taking the time to post this, I found it most educational.

The only thing I can say about this, is that while entertainment is owned by the money-men, it is created by artists. Unless the creator has completely sold his or her soul to the money-men that is.

And this point is where I am hoping that Arenanet can continue to withstand the pressures from their bosses. Although I agree that this can be a 2 way street, as pressures continue to increase for profitability gains against the develeopers vision, it becomes harder for them to push for their vision (Think of it this way, a chef wants to make a wonderful beef dish, but the manager is only willing to by him Spam, due to profitability). I see this not a selling out to the powers that be (that actually happened when the primary officers sold Arenanet to NCSoft..and worse when NCSoft sold Nexon a pretty large say on the direction of NCSoft(a private 15% sale of stock is nothing to sneeze at) but a daily battle that is being fought in a long and protracted war. The fact that they have been able to hold on to as much of the artistic license AND influence within the Gem Store is a huge nod to their ability to negotiate on their, as well as our, behalf, with profitability being on their side. I am concerned at what profit point NCSoft steps in, drops the hammer and says, ‘this isn’t working, you must do it our way now.’
Evon Gnashblade vs. the Consortium indeed!

Well most of the original GW2 design team has been fired or quit by now, so the game really is controlled by moneymen. They have no issue with firing artists if they don’t perform. I think this is the reason there is such a large disconnected between current content and early content.

It is sad, I remember when the game was released I actually spend HOURS playing. I would Look foreward to logging on. I played the game straight. Not sure if i can even Point to what has actually been changed…. all I know is…Now the game is Not as fun to play.

it seems that a LOT has been moved to the gem store. The biggest complaint I have is traits. Used to be you levelled up..bought a cheap book, and bam..all the traits were there. Now they coupled a GOOD thing… making it so you need to explore content, to unlock traits…. with a Bad thing….they made the content you need to unlock prohibitive, while giving you the option to simply use gold to BUY the traits….

Gold they sell for gems which you buy with cash.

/me sighs…. I can see how this was implemented mostly because they think this is what the chinese audience will like. No idea, since I don’t Know how Chinese players consume their MMO’s, I read somewhere that either Korea, or japan, players pay for MMO’s By the Minute? what?

I agree, the Money-men have won this one. Sad. I Understand the artist needs the businessman, but it is always a shame when the artist is crushed by the business man.

edit:

Guess that they should teach students a fable by Aesop, another artist, “The goose that lays Golden eggs” in Business school?

Well I don’t know enough about the financials of the game to say if it was successful. Certainly a lot of players enjoyed it, but how much is the game spending versus making? Would it still be profitable if they were followign the original plans?

sirian.4981:

Nerelith.7360:

sirian.4981:

Roybe.5896:

Nerelith.7360:

@Roybe

Just wanted to thank you for taking the time to post this, I found it most educational.

The only thing I can say about this, is that while entertainment is owned by the money-men, it is created by artists. Unless the creator has completely sold his or her soul to the money-men that is.

And this point is where I am hoping that Arenanet can continue to withstand the pressures from their bosses. Although I agree that this can be a 2 way street, as pressures continue to increase for profitability gains against the develeopers vision, it becomes harder for them to push for their vision (Think of it this way, a chef wants to make a wonderful beef dish, but the manager is only willing to by him Spam, due to profitability). I see this not a selling out to the powers that be (that actually happened when the primary officers sold Arenanet to NCSoft..and worse when NCSoft sold Nexon a pretty large say on the direction of NCSoft(a private 15% sale of stock is nothing to sneeze at) but a daily battle that is being fought in a long and protracted war. The fact that they have been able to hold on to as much of the artistic license AND influence within the Gem Store is a huge nod to their ability to negotiate on their, as well as our, behalf, with profitability being on their side. I am concerned at what profit point NCSoft steps in, drops the hammer and says, ‘this isn’t working, you must do it our way now.’
Evon Gnashblade vs. the Consortium indeed!

Well most of the original GW2 design team has been fired or quit by now, so the game really is controlled by moneymen. They have no issue with firing artists if they don’t perform. I think this is the reason there is such a large disconnected between current content and early content.

It is sad, I remember when the game was released I actually spend HOURS playing. I would Look foreward to logging on. I played the game straight. Not sure if i can even Point to what has actually been changed…. all I know is…Now the game is Not as fun to play.

it seems that a LOT has been moved to the gem store. The biggest complaint I have is traits. Used to be you levelled up..bought a cheap book, and bam..all the traits were there. Now they coupled a GOOD thing… making it so you need to explore content, to unlock traits…. with a Bad thing….they made the content you need to unlock prohibitive, while giving you the option to simply use gold to BUY the traits….

Gold they sell for gems which you buy with cash.

/me sighs…. I can see how this was implemented mostly because they think this is what the chinese audience will like. No idea, since I don’t Know how Chinese players consume their MMO’s, I read somewhere that either Korea, or japan, players pay for MMO’s By the Minute? what?

I agree, the Money-men have won this one. Sad. I Understand the artist needs the businessman, but it is always a shame when the artist is crushed by the business man.

edit:

Guess that they should teach students a fable by Aesop, another artist, “The goose that lays Golden eggs” in Business school?

Well I don’t know enough about the financials of the game to say if it was successful. Certainly a lot of players enjoyed it, but how much is the game spending versus making? Would it still be profitable if they were followign the original plans?

There is a simple test to know whether they were successful or not. How many games were released? How many expansions? How Long was the game out before it was allowed to piggy back on Gw2’s servers?

I think that spells successful.

Nerelith.7360:

There is a simple test to know whether they were successful or not. How many games were released? How many expansions? How Long was the game out before it was allowed to piggy back on Gw2’s servers?

I think that spells successful.

Wrong metrics. Completely. That’s how to measure a Sub MMO, or older game requiring new content to be sold to make money, with the absence of a strong pay store. The model being experimented with here is provide quality content up front, then have people show their support of that content by buying from the store. Now there is subjective response to quality…I’m not going to discuss that with anyone. Art is art, music is music, and game content is just as subjective as either of those items.

What can be measured is the % of people who purchased the game and log back in to recieve their content update relative to those that have truly left the game. If you are logging into the game, then you are counted as a retained customer. If retention starts dropping, then we’ll see really big changes in the store..or the game will close down.

I say this again, it is not important to maintain high concurrency, particularly with the megaservers. This is actually increasing costs and decreasing profitability. The best plan is to create content to keep the bottom 95% of the population busy for a month or so, with an ever increasing backlog of achievements, etc. Let the top 2-5% leave, or WvW or PvP…any choice is fine for this model..or, keep returning for the content updates and continue the cycle.

Until the top % of players understands this is how this is going to work, they will continue to be upset. When they finally do, they’ll vote with their pocketbooks, one way or the other.

Btw, this is the way this payment model has been designed to work, this isn’t anything that is fundamentally changed. As a matter of fact, they have actually conceded that the original plan of truly temporary content..which actually increases concurrency (those that got to see all the content HAD to be online=‘forcing’ their players to be online all the time) was the wrong place to be spending their development time. I can also guarantee you their metrics showed them this, to.

Roybe.5896:

Nerelith.7360:

There is a simple test to know whether they were successful or not. How many games were released? How many expansions? How Long was the game out before it was allowed to piggy back on Gw2’s servers?

I think that spells successful.

Wrong metrics. Completely. That’s how to measure a Sub MMO, or older game requiring new content to be sold to make money, with the absence of a strong pay store. The model being experimented with here is provide quality content up front, then have people show their support of that content by buying from the store. Now there is subjective response to quality…I’m not going to discuss that with anyone. Art is art, music is music, and game content is just as subjective as either of those items.

What can be measured is the % of people who purchased the game and log back in to recieve their content update relative to those that have truly left the game. If you are logging into the game, then you are counted as a retained customer. If retention starts dropping, then we’ll see really big changes in the store..or the game will close down.

I say this again, it is not important to maintain high concurrency, particularly with the megaservers. This is actually increasing costs and decreasing profitability. The best plan is to create content to keep the bottom 95% of the population busy for a month or so, with an ever increasing backlog of achievements, etc. Let the top 2-5% leave, or WvW or PvP…any choice is fine for this model..or, keep returning for the content updates and continue the cycle.

Until the top % of players understands this is how this is going to work, they will continue to be upset. When they finally do, they’ll vote with their pocketbooks, one way or the other.

Btw, this is the way this payment model has been designed to work, this isn’t anything that is fundamentally changed. As a matter of fact, they have actually conceded that the original plan of truly temporary content..which actually increases concurrency (those that got to see all the content HAD to be online=‘forcing’ their players to be online all the time) was the wrong place to be spending their development time. I can also guarantee you their metrics showed them this, to.

My point was if it had been a financial flop, it would have been closed down after the Factions was released, and showed that the economic model being used, did not work.

If it failed with Factions, they would not have wasted money , developing then releasing and running Nightfall.

If Nightfall was a failure, they would simply have shut down the servers. While there is NO way to say how much of a success those games were, they were successful. And it can be seen because … other games were shut down even with no subscription.

CoH was shut down…even though it went free 2 play, and tried to make cash, it wasn’t shut down because it was a success.

If Guild Wars had been a failure, it would have been shut down ages ago.

Nerelith.7360:

Roybe.5896:

Nerelith.7360:

There is a simple test to know whether they were successful or not. How many games were released? How many expansions? How Long was the game out before it was allowed to piggy back on Gw2’s servers?

I think that spells successful.

Wrong metrics. Completely. That’s how to measure a Sub MMO, or older game requiring new content to be sold to make money, with the absence of a strong pay store. The model being experimented with here is provide quality content up front, then have people show their support of that content by buying from the store. Now there is subjective response to quality…I’m not going to discuss that with anyone. Art is art, music is music, and game content is just as subjective as either of those items.

What can be measured is the % of people who purchased the game and log back in to recieve their content update relative to those that have truly left the game. If you are logging into the game, then you are counted as a retained customer. If retention starts dropping, then we’ll see really big changes in the store..or the game will close down.

I say this again, it is not important to maintain high concurrency, particularly with the megaservers. This is actually increasing costs and decreasing profitability. The best plan is to create content to keep the bottom 95% of the population busy for a month or so, with an ever increasing backlog of achievements, etc. Let the top 2-5% leave, or WvW or PvP…any choice is fine for this model..or, keep returning for the content updates and continue the cycle.

Until the top % of players understands this is how this is going to work, they will continue to be upset. When they finally do, they’ll vote with their pocketbooks, one way or the other.

Btw, this is the way this payment model has been designed to work, this isn’t anything that is fundamentally changed. As a matter of fact, they have actually conceded that the original plan of truly temporary content..which actually increases concurrency (those that got to see all the content HAD to be online=‘forcing’ their players to be online all the time) was the wrong place to be spending their development time. I can also guarantee you their metrics showed them this, to.

My point was if it had been a financial flop, it would have been closed down after the Factions was released, and showed that the economic model being used, did not work.

That is the wrong way to look at it. The costs to maintain GW1 were quite dissimilar due to the fact that it wasn’t an MMO. It was a Coop RPG with lobbies. Even Anet concedes this point. Very different, and relatively cheaper and more profitable, animal.

However, you are correct. It was profitable enough from box sales to allow it’s growth and maintenance through today. However, box sales aren’t being used in this manner for GW2. The box sales are recovering sunk costs, with profits primarily being generated through the store. As the costs are recovered future box sales count towards the profitability which is actually creating a buffer against retention variations. As long as retention remains high enough, the game will continue to flourish through LS episodes, with all sorts of content that people want to see.

However, it requires patience on the communities part. If they push hard to get a commitment for a future expansion, guaranteed, I promise the squawking will get very loud as all assets turn to this project and nothing else will change in game until the release of the expansion. Personally, I do not believe there is an expansion ‘in the background’ either. That’s just people grasping at straws.

I salute Anet for making the updates permanent. Adding new zones more often will make the game even more awesome. The world is huge you know

I agree completely with the OP: Guild Wars needs an expansion!

GW2 is a colossal waste. Congrats, ArenaNet, on your GW2 earnings.

I firmly believe that an expansion would be good for the game, for a variety of reasons.

1) Personally, I strongly dislike the micro-transaction model all together. This is becoming a plague in gaming, and it does not make games better, and in fact it makes games worse than they were 10 years ago because the practice consists of taking things that should be earned in-game out of the game and instead give it for a tip. I find it very unpleasant to have to interrupt my gaming experience to get my credit card because I just want to change my character’s haircut or armor’s look. It kills the fun for me. (Not to mention in a game that is supposed to reward with cosmetics I have to pay to change my look??? The game does not make sense with itself.) I’m more understanding for a game without monthly fees like this one because they obviously have to pay the bills, but I’d much rather pay 50$ upfront for an entire expansion worth of content which includes time savers and fluff, and the devs leave me alone with those petty 200 gems here 150 gems there. And in general micro-transactions are completely against games that reward with cosmetics because it puts said cosmetics are almost always behind pay-walls, while their real place should be behind challenge-walls.

2) This kind of goes with 1). Things like armor sets are understandably very costly to produce with 5 races/2 genders/3 armor classes, so we’re pretty much doomed to get 99% of the new ones from the gem store. For a game that rewards with cosmetics and whose predecessor had tons and tons and tons of armor sets for all kinds of bragging rights, this is a huge, huge disappointment. In 2 years we only got 2 sets of armors that were not from the cash shop (the ascended gear which are IMHO very ugly and the PvP exclusive gear) Looking at the amount of armor sets we got at launch for the price of the box, an expansion might put at least 20 new sets of armors IN-GAME that rewards for actual accomplishments in the game, instead of being boring gem store purchases that are everything but bragging rights and does not speak of anything. And, in that way, expansions make a better game than micro-transactions.

3) There are things that I consider fundamentally flawed in the game and need to be redesigned from the ground up. Almost everything about dungeons and instanced group play is completely broken in my opinion. In my experience with MMOs, that kind of “from the ground up” redesign only happens during the development of expansion when you have the full production workforce. I don’t have any hope for things like dungeons to be fixed without an expansion.

4) This is completely artificial but news of a GW2 expansion would bring the spotlight back on the game. The gaming press would talk about Guild Wars 2 again. The people that quit might be interested to come back seeing that huge expansion full of fresh new content, and might even come back before to get ready for the expansion, discover that there’s the Living World with fresh new content, and get back to playing. Also, if the expansion does not raise the level cap it’s basically an entire expansion of endgame (like EotN) so the people that were hesitant to enbark on the GW2 bandwagon (and I know quite a few) due to lacking PvE end-game might be tempted to buy the game and join the community.

Now, NCsoft obviously disagree so I have absolutely no expectations for GW2 to move from a more micro-transaction model to an expansion model like its predecessor. Depending on the rate of expansion releases, micro-transactions probably make more bucks anyway. But I highly doubt that this game will ever realize its full potential and what it was hyped to be, simply because the micro-transaction model cannibalizes a lot of things that should belong to the game and sell it for quick cash instead of allowing players to deserve it.

Nerelith.7360:

CoH was shut down…even though it went free 2 play, and tried to make cash, it wasn’t shut down because it was a success.

If Guild Wars had been a failure, it would have been shut down ages ago.

You make it sound like CoH was shut down because it was a failure.

How Guild Wars managed to keep afloat, IMO, was because its studio already had a Game-2 in production when NC Soft was having it’s wallet issues and dodged the bat. CoH didn’t quite have such a plan already in the works. If anything, the only problem it had was it didn’t have a buyer to get it out of NC Soft’s hands in time. CoH made money, but only really enough to keep itself funded and updated. It wasn’t making the bloated cashflow to fund NC Soft’s projects.

…but then I doubt Guild Wars did either. Luckily though, Guild Wars 2 is taking its place and just in time too.

Roybe.5896:

~

TLDR; NCSoft, due to the nature of GW2 payment model needs people to purchase, the game and items from the Gem Store. They do not need to invest in an expansion as long as profitability is maintained. The only way they can see if this is holding true, isn’t related to the numbers of people actively playing, but by those willing to login for ‘free content’ and how profitable the Gem Store remains.

So to make a long story short. If you want expansions over other stuff only give them money for the game and expansions not for anything else.

Best thing is you even get a better game for it. Buying gems means no expansions.

For me I believe that when taking into acknowledging the fact that many who have brought GW2 and are no longer playing is indicative of that state of the game. Would be a good first step. I believe that NC Soft is ignoring this since it makes enough monies with its other IPs and thus not giving Arenanet the funds it needs to develop an expansion to supplement the Living Story.

I believe Guild Wars 2 has been effectively pushed aside to focus on Aion and Wildstar. Many here have posted numerious ideas and suggestions for and against an expansion. GW2 was released after Aion and thus it needs to benchmark itself against both it and the original game and present a compelling product that would attract players who have played those two – but are now looking for something new.

Guild Wars 2 should have been that product. There should have been an acknowledge content release timeline that is reviewed by management every 6 months and then announced to the player base. This timeline should have included Cantha, Elona, the Far Shiverpeaks & a totally new region – based on the GW2 world.

A timeline would give the player-base a reason to stay since it gives us the confidence that NC Soft is committed to growing the GW2 IP. Clearly they have not come close to this or have quietly ignored the data that they are well aware of.