Guild Wars 2

It would be nice if instead of posting what is bad, you could post suggestions as to how to improve it. Since, you are a supposed AAA developer, how can you change it?

The negativity of your post guarantees that most of the replies will be negative also. Nice way to start a pile on thread.

Dusty Moon.4382:

It would be nice if instead of posting what is bad, you could post suggestions as to how to improve it. Since, you are a supposed AAA developer, how can you change it?

The negativity of your post guarantees that most of the replies will be negative also. Nice way to start a pile on thread.

Learn to read. I gave three suggestions as to how to improve RNG.

Also, the post contains no complaining, no aspersions on ANet, and no begging for an item. How is it hostile in any way?

OP, I see where you’re coming from.

Anet used to allow rare drops to be sold. But because those drops were temporary in nature, a lot of people held onto them, and waited until the were worth huge amounts of money . It affected the game’s economy. That’s why they switched to account bound.

The rest of what you said I have no problem with.

Each time you put in 4 rares/exotics into the Mystic Forge your chance at a precursor doubles. When you get a precursor it resets. Problem solved.

What rare drops are account bound? As far as I’m aware, it’s only ascended drops that cannot be sold.

sazberryftw.3809:

What rare drops are account bound? As far as I’m aware, it’s only ascended drops that cannot be sold.

The new insect skins have a token that is account bound that you find in a chest. That’s why it’s such a big deal this release.

Morsus.5106:

Each time you put in 4 rares/exotics into the Mystic Forge your chance at a precursor doubles. When you get a precursor it resets. Problem solved.

Agreed, same goes for dungeon loot and world bosses. it needs to be weighted RNG.

Morsus.5106:

sazberryftw.3809:

What rare drops are account bound? As far as I’m aware, it’s only ascended drops that cannot be sold.

The new insect skins have a token that is account bound that you find in a chest. That’s why it’s such a big deal this release.

I see, I thought we were referring to exotics/rares. My bad.

Tringsh.2380:

Morsus.5106:

Each time you put in 4 rares/exotics into the Mystic Forge your chance at a precursor doubles. When you get a precursor it resets. Problem solved.

Agreed, same goes for dungeon loot and world bosses. it needs to be weighted RNG.

As someone who’s run Sorrow’s Embrace at least 100 times, I can tell you you’ve got no chance at those recipes for Accessories and Rings.

Morsus.5106:

Each time you put in 4 rares/exotics into the Mystic Forge your chance at a precursor doubles. When you get a precursor it resets. Problem solved.

I also like this idea.
I appreciate RNG is, and must be a part of an MMO. But I’d like the idea of knowing that my time and skill effects my chances of rare loot, it’s more of an incentive to keep going.

Sytherek.7689:

Dusty Moon.4382:

It would be nice if instead of posting what is bad, you could post suggestions as to how to improve it. Since, you are a supposed AAA developer, how can you change it?

The negativity of your post guarantees that most of the replies will be negative also. Nice way to start a pile on thread.

Learn to read. I gave three suggestions as to how to improve RNG.

Also, the post contains no complaining, no aspersions on ANet, and no begging for an item. How is it hostile in any way?

Selling items just makes things more rancorous. It is the way it always is – I mean – look at the prices of Legendary precursors. Some cost more than the legendaries themselves. People are already complaining of prices on the TP – being that the prices are set by players not A.Net.

Your suggestions just are deflecting the problems from one part of the game to another. Those are not real fixes. I was trying to point that out but maybe I didn’t make myself clear enough.

Addendum:

Getting the new “Fossilized insect” is not skill-based, nor is it time-based, nor is it craftable, nor is is sellable.

It is 100% purely luck based, and that is bad for the game.

Sytherek.7689:

I have been a developer on AAA titles and specifically, MMOs. This article is less about criticizing ANet and more about them making the game more fun.

First up, I’m gonna say that using the word “social game” for an MMO is horrible and you should feel bad for it. This is no farmville.

RNG is bad for MMOs. Here’s why:

1) RNG as implemented fosters player rancor.
I post that I haven’t found an item after opening 100 chest, someone else post they found it in the 2nd chest and they don’t see a problem.

2) RNG as implemented isn’t fair.
Nope, life ain’t fair. GW2 is not life, it is a game. It is entertainment. Frustration is not fun.

3) RNG as implemented isn’t fun.
Putting a desirable item behind RNG is a recipe for making people frustrated. Something that always drops is meaningless; something that never drops causes frustration. A balance must be struck.

4) RNG as implemented is illogical.
People who want the item do not get it. People who don’t want the item do. Since items cannot be sold in the trading post, this again creates frustration.

1. Anything can do that. Even without RNG, you’d have people angry about skins. You go into an FPS and you’ll see people kittenent anyone who is legitimately a better player than they are.
2. Again, I think you should watch your words. “It’s a game, not real life” is a phrase that can immediately be legitimately used to erase anything and everything about the game because there’s some demographic that finds it to be too “real”.
   But what part of the game needs to be “fair”? I would argue that dungeons are pretty fair, considering that everyone gets the same amount of tokens. But without an RNG to determine the drops, you would have to make it fixed. 1 token per monster, but that would mean you’d have a ridiculously high amount of tokens. Would it really be better if instead of killing 10,000 monsters and maybe getting a precursor, you would have to kill 10,000 monsters to get it? Because you really cannot make it any different: if you make a random chance to get more tokens, you fall right back into the RNG pit: Some people will get there with 5,000 monsters.
3. Grinding is not fun. It doesn’t matter if it’s RNG or if you know that you’ll be guaranteed to get there after 100 hours of work.
4. There are some items that cannot be sold in the trading post. Majority of them can be sold there. In fact, the decision for an item to not be sellable is an economic one.

GW2 would be a better game and more fun if:

1) Allow rare drops to be sold. Remove account binding.

2) Improve the chance of a rare item drop the more a person tries to get it. I suspect ANet will say they can’t do this due to “technical limitations”.

3) Sell rare drops in the trading post for gems. People with money can buy the drop; people who have oodles of time/will can hunt for it. Please don’t hypocritically say rare things should be special, and then let people buy/sell “legendaries”.
RNG is fun and entertaining. .

1. A lot of rare items can already be sold. There’s a small subset that cannot. Account binding is an economic device that makes sure items maintain their value.
2. The thing is, it’s not quite that simple. Keeping a log of the drop history of all items on every single character (or even account) is not a feasible solution. And you cannot just categorize things into “rare” and “common”, because then you’ll run into issues where people end up getting the rare items they don’t want, which is no different from the current situation. If anything, a token-based system like what we have in dungeons would be better.
3. I don’t think that’s going to happen, since it would drastically alter the prices and desirability of gems.

Olba.5376:

First up, I’m gonna say that using the word “social game” for an MMO is horrible and you should feel bad for it. This is no farmville.

Guilds, group events, the trading post — yes, Guild Wars 2 is a social game. Quite obviously.

Olba.5376:

1. Again, I think you should watch your words. “It’s a game, not real life” is a phrase that can immediately be legitimately used to erase anything and everything about the game because there’s some demographic that finds it to be too “real”.

My words were correct and precise. It is a game. That’s a fact. It is entertainment. Like a movie or TV show, it may be “brilliant” by critical metric, but a failure if it does not entertain. RNG in excess (note that word) is not fun.

Olba.5376:

But without an RNG to determine the drops, you would have to make it fixed.

No.

There is middle ground between the extremes of all-RNG and no-RNG. RNG an be made less punitive without removing the enjoyment of chance. The existence of a “luck” attribute attests to ANet’s understanding of the issue; the fact “luck” does not apply to chests is mystifying.

Olba.5376:

1. A lot of rare items can already be sold.

ANet’s choice of what can and cannot be sold/bought is very arbitrary and very inconsistent.

Sytherek.7689:

Olba.5376:

First up, I’m gonna say that using the word “social game” for an MMO is horrible and you should feel bad for it. This is no farmville.

Guilds, group events, the trading post — yes, Guild Wars 2 is a social game. Quite obviously.

Olba.5376:

1. Again, I think you should watch your words. “It’s a game, not real life” is a phrase that can immediately be legitimately used to erase anything and everything about the game because there’s some demographic that finds it to be too “real”.

My words were correct and precise. It is a game. That’s a fact. It is entertainment. Like a movie or TV show, it may be “brilliant” by critical metric, but a failure if it does not entertain. RNG in excess (note that word) is not fun.

Olba.5376:

But without an RNG to determine the drops, you would have to make it fixed.

No.

There is middle ground between the extremes of all-RNG and no-RNG. RNG an be made less punitive without removing the enjoyment of chance. The existence of a “luck” attribute attests to ANet’s understanding of the issue; the fact “luck” does not apply to chests is mystifying.

Olba.5376:

1. A lot of rare items can already be sold.

ANet’s choice of what can and cannot be sold/bought is very arbitrary and very inconsistent.

How is it arbitrary? Please actually give some items that are blocked arbitrarily, according to you.

Example – Celestial items cannot be traded as they are close to Ascended items and they also cannot be traded. That is not arbitrary.

Olba.5376:

…

1. The thing is, it’s not quite that simple. Keeping a log of the drop history of all items on every single character (or even account) is not a feasible solution. And you cannot just categorize things into “rare” and “common”, because then you’ll run into issues where people end up getting the rare items they don’t want, which is no different from the current situation. If anything, a token-based system like what we have in dungeons would be better.

I’d been recommending that in the various “precursor unfair” threads for a while now. By turning it into a Mystic Forge recipe, you can get players to invest in rares and exotics, instead of having these horribly inflated precursor prices.

Example similar to what I posted before:

Every Level 80 weapon flush at the Mystic Forge yields a Precursor Token. (Or knowing ANet, 0-3 tokens.) I’d recommend a chance at 1 for every rare and an almost-guaranteed one for every exotic, 50% and 90% respectively. It takes 250 Precursor Tokens for the recipe.
That satisfies a financial component. Spend gold (or gems) get components.

The actual recipe is done at 500 crafting for the weapon’s type. This requires similar investment to Ascended gear, and can even use Ascended materials.

Similarly to Ascended, there is a recipe as karma-purchase item.

Recipes for Ascended Dowel and specific precursor type (karma)
Precursor Inscription (Precursor Tokens) + Ascended Dowel (Ascended materials from various game participation)
Orichalcum and Ancient Wood parts (head and handle)

Kinda shorthanded it a bit at the end, but a method like the above would give slow, but guaranteed success in building a precursor. It also uses a spread of the game’s resources.

Dusty Moon.4382:

How is it arbitrary? Please actually give some items that are blocked arbitrarily, according to you.

Example – Celestial items cannot be traded as they are close to Ascended items and they also cannot be traded. That is not arbitrary.

Celestial items are not based on rare drops, but on time spent in game. They are, for anyone who wants them, inevitable. The required materials are not rare and can be acquired thru gameplay.

It is a CHOICE whether or not you get Ascended items. There is no in-game roadblock to their acquisition; every single component drops GUARANTEED, even the account-bound ones. Now, the number of elements may vary, but if I kill a boss or open a crate, I KNOW I will get fragments/ore/dust. Skill points can be methodically acquired. An important piece can be bought from a vendor.

And yes, I have one character fully decked-out in ascended gear, by CHOICE. My other 80s don’t have ascended, by CHOICE.

The new amber weapons are not acquired by choice; theoretically, I could open thousands of chests and never get the fossilized insect. Getting a fossilized insect is pure LUCK. Not skill, not perseverance, not money, but LUCK.

Ascended weapons are a choice. Amber weapons are luck.

“2) RNG as implemented isn’t fair.
Nope, life ain’t fair. GW2 is not life, it is a game. It is entertainment. Frustration is not fun.”

Isn’t gambling entertainment? Casinos? Racetracks? Believe it or not, some people like gambling because it’s fun and entertaining.

Rauderi.8706:

Olba.5376:

…

1. The thing is, it’s not quite that simple. Keeping a log of the drop history of all items on every single character (or even account) is not a feasible solution. And you cannot just categorize things into “rare” and “common”, because then you’ll run into issues where people end up getting the rare items they don’t want, which is no different from the current situation. If anything, a token-based system like what we have in dungeons would be better.

I’d been recommending that in the various “precursor unfair” threads for a while now. By turning it into a Mystic Forge recipe, you can get players to invest in rares and exotics, instead of having these horribly inflated precursor prices.

Example similar to what I posted before:

Every Level 80 weapon flush at the Mystic Forge yields a Precursor Token. (Or knowing ANet, 0-3 tokens.) I’d recommend a chance at 1 for every rare and an almost-guaranteed one for every exotic, 50% and 90% respectively. It takes 250 Precursor Tokens for the recipe.
That satisfies a financial component. Spend gold (or gems) get components.

The actual recipe is done at 500 crafting for the weapon’s type. This requires similar investment to Ascended gear, and can even use Ascended materials.

Similarly to Ascended, there is a recipe as karma-purchase item.

Recipes for Ascended Dowel and specific precursor type (karma)
Precursor Inscription (Precursor Tokens) + Ascended Dowel (Ascended materials from various game participation)
Orichalcum and Ancient Wood parts (head and handle)

Kinda shorthanded it a bit at the end, but a method like the above would give slow, but guaranteed success in building a precursor. It also uses a spread of the game’s resources.

Good ideas. I like this idea.

I don’t ask to be “given” anything in game beyond the basics. I don’t ask for freebies.

I ask for reasonable paths to attain game elements.

Sytherek.7689:

Dusty Moon.4382:

How is it arbitrary? Please actually give some items that are blocked arbitrarily, according to you.

Example – Celestial items cannot be traded as they are close to Ascended items and they also cannot be traded. That is not arbitrary.

Celestial items are not based on rare drops, but on time spent in game. They are, for anyone who wants them, inevitable. The required materials are not rare and can be acquired thru gameplay.

It is a CHOICE whether or not you get Ascended items. There is no in-game roadblock to their acquisition; every single component drops GUARANTEED, even the account-bound ones. Now, the number of elements may vary, but if I kill a boss or open a crate, I KNOW I will get fragments/ore/dust. Skill points can be methodically acquired. An important piece can be bought from a vendor.

And yes, I have one character fully decked-out in ascended gear, by CHOICE. My other 80s don’t have ascended, by CHOICE.

The new amber weapons are not acquired by choice; theoretically, I could open thousands of chests and never get the fossilized insect. Getting a fossilized insect is pure LUCK. Not skill, not perseverance, not money, but LUCK.

Ascended weapons are a choice. Amber weapons are luck.

Luck is not arbitrary – sorry. As Vol said behind you – it is just like gambling. Some win big others lose big. Just because you don’t get the fossilized insect does not mean it is arbitrary.

My suggestion would be to give players a second way to attain an item like this Fossilized Insect, either through Gems or some other way that rewards players dedicating their time to the game.

Vol.7601:

“2) RNG as implemented isn’t fair.
Nope, life ain’t fair. GW2 is not life, it is a game. It is entertainment. Frustration is not fun.”

Isn’t gambling entertainment? Casinos? Racetracks? Believe it or not, some people like gambling because it’s fun and entertaining.

Yup, gambling is entertainment. I used to card-count in black-jack though, because it allowed me some control over the odds. Poker isn’t won by luck or the quality of your hand, it’s won by guile.

Gamblers have control over their luck, if they’re at all savvy. You study the horse’s history, you analyze your cards and your opponent’s faces.

Now, slot machines are pure luck. I never put a single coin in one.

Getting a fossilized bug is a slot machine, not poker. Poker I can controll to some extent. Slot machines are pure luck.

Rabe.2456:

My suggestion would be to give players a second way to attain an item like this Fossilized Insect, either through Gems or some other way that rewards players dedicating their time to the game.

Which is all I ask for.

Dusty Moon.4382:

Sytherek.7689:

Dusty Moon.4382:

How is it arbitrary? Please actually give some items that are blocked arbitrarily, according to you.

Example – Celestial items cannot be traded as they are close to Ascended items and they also cannot be traded. That is not arbitrary.

Celestial items are not based on rare drops, but on time spent in game. They are, for anyone who wants them, inevitable. The required materials are not rare and can be acquired thru gameplay.

It is a CHOICE whether or not you get Ascended items. There is no in-game roadblock to their acquisition; every single component drops GUARANTEED, even the account-bound ones. Now, the number of elements may vary, but if I kill a boss or open a crate, I KNOW I will get fragments/ore/dust. Skill points can be methodically acquired. An important piece can be bought from a vendor.

And yes, I have one character fully decked-out in ascended gear, by CHOICE. My other 80s don’t have ascended, by CHOICE.

The new amber weapons are not acquired by choice; theoretically, I could open thousands of chests and never get the fossilized insect. Getting a fossilized insect is pure LUCK. Not skill, not perseverance, not money, but LUCK.

Ascended weapons are a choice. Amber weapons are luck.

Luck is not arbitrary – sorry. As Vol said behind you – it is just like gambling. Some win big others lose big. Just because you don’t get the fossilized insect does not mean it is arbitrary.

LOL… luck is not arbitrary??? It is the very definition of arbitrary, as in, no rhyme or reason to it, as you exactly point out right after your statement. There is no reason or system applied to luck.

Dusty Moon.4382:

Luck is not arbitrary – sorry. As Vol said behind you – it is just like gambling. Some win big others lose big. Just because you don’t get the fossilized insect does not mean it is arbitrary.

Wrong. Much gambling (poker, game bets, etc.) is actually skill, guile, knowledge, and observation. Sure, luck is still involved, but I can influence my luck and mitigate its effect.

I would love to play cards with you someday for money.

Sytherek.7689:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Luck is not arbitrary – sorry. As Vol said behind you – it is just like gambling. Some win big others lose big. Just because you don’t get the fossilized insect does not mean it is arbitrary.

Wrong. Much gambling (poker, game bets, etc.) is actually skill, guile, knowledge, and observation. Sure, luck is still involved, but I can influence my luck and mitigate its effect.

I would love to play cards with you someday for money.

I have never gambled in my life and will never waste the money. I don’t see the point in it.

So…. all mmorpg even all rpgs with online play are bad? Because they all have a rng of some type just because YOU are not getting what you want dose not give you more of a right to wine about it and to empower you to go on about GW2 being bad because of RNG. RNG has been in every rpg game even from the days of the first ff games there was an rng for both items and dmg.

Its like ppl have comply forgotten the last 20 years? of gaming as if nothing like rng has existed in any game from the past or the presents and only GW2 was the first game and only game to have RNG.

Dusty Moon.4382:

Sytherek.7689:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Luck is not arbitrary – sorry. As Vol said behind you – it is just like gambling. Some win big others lose big. Just because you don’t get the fossilized insect does not mean it is arbitrary.

Wrong. Much gambling (poker, game bets, etc.) is actually skill, guile, knowledge, and observation. Sure, luck is still involved, but I can influence my luck and mitigate its effect.

I would love to play cards with you someday for money.

I have never gambled in my life and will never waste the money. I don’t see the point in it.

You play Guild Wars. Thus you gamble.

Jski.6180:

So…. all mmorpg even all rpgs with online play are bad? Because they all have a rng of some type just because YOU are not getting what you want dose not give you more of a right to wine about it and to empower you to go on about GW2 being bad because of RNG. RNG has been in every rpg game even from the days of the first ff games there was an rng for both items and dmg.

Its like ppl have comply forgotten the last 20 years? of gaming as if nothing like rng has existed in any game from the past or the presents and only GW2 was the first game and only game to have RNG.

You didn’t read what I actually said.

Here, just so it’s clear: RNG is good. It makes games interesting. Every moment of every day, we gamble by taking chances. I cross the street, I might get hit by a car. So I look both ways to mitigate luck.

Getting a bug is pure luck. There is nothing I can do to improve my odds of getting one. That is somewhat unique in GW2.

Sytherek.7689:

….
Getting a bug is pure luck. There is nothing I can do to improve my odds of getting one. That is somewhat unique in GW2.

While there might be nothing you can do to improve your odds on any SINGLE buried chest opening, there is plenty you can do to increase your chances to actually obtain one…..like opening more chests.

While the debate on RNG vs player “feelings” rages on, the fact that RNG keeps players IN the game is kind of the point from Anet’s perspective. Looking at this from ONLY the position of what makes a good game for the players is kind of pointless as NO company is ever going to make a game with that singular goal in mind.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Sytherek.7689:

….
Getting a bug is pure luck. There is nothing I can do to improve my odds of getting one. That is somewhat unique in GW2.

While there might be nothing you can do to improve your odds on any SINGLE buried chest opening, there is plenty you can do to increase your chances to actually obtain one…..like opening more chests.

Opening more chests, however, does not guarantee getting a fossilize insect.

Grinding does guarantee that I can make ascended items or but a legendary or make enough gold to get something in the trading post.

There is nothing I can do to definitely attain a fossilized bug. Nothing.

Sytherek.7689:

Jski.6180:

So…. all mmorpg even all rpgs with online play are bad? Because they all have a rng of some type just because YOU are not getting what you want dose not give you more of a right to wine about it and to empower you to go on about GW2 being bad because of RNG. RNG has been in every rpg game even from the days of the first ff games there was an rng for both items and dmg.

Its like ppl have comply forgotten the last 20 years? of gaming as if nothing like rng has existed in any game from the past or the presents and only GW2 was the first game and only game to have RNG.

You didn’t read what I actually said.

Here, just so it’s clear: RNG is good. It makes games interesting. Every moment of every day, we gamble by taking chances. I cross the street, I might get hit by a car. So I look both ways to mitigate luck.

Getting a bug is pure luck. There is nothing I can do to improve my odds of getting one. That is somewhat unique in GW2.

Its not at all GW2 RNG is nothing compared to a lot of mmorpgs try ff11 that game was nothing but RNG for both mobs drops and spawn of mobs. There where nm on a 3 day spawn time that had a low chase to become a hnm that had its own loot table and the main items where on less then .1% drop rates. The RNG in GW2 is purly on item drops every thing else about GW2 is highly consistent even more so then games with less RNG drops this is due to the self loot tables and self nodes etc… over all the tagging system. You could drop the RNG for items but then you need to changes the tagging system and loot table system nodes etc… THAT is how other mmorpgs deal a high % for items to drop you must share it.

What is “somewhat unique in GW2” is that ppl comply forgive low drop rates in other games but not for GW2 that tends to have a higher drop rate and retry rate then most mmorpg. (mind you retry rates tend to be more important then drop rates them self.)

Sytherek.7689:

3) Sell rare drops in the trading post for gems. People with money can buy the drop; people who have oodles of time/will can hunt for it. Please don’t hypocritically say rare things should be special, and then let people buy/sell “legendaries”.

This would be perfectly fine if there wasn’t a cash shop.

For people that like to play competitively (like myself), the fact that some jerk can swipe their credit card and have more ingame wealth than me is annoying to say the least.

Purple Miku.7032:

Sytherek.7689:

3) Sell rare drops in the trading post for gems. People with money can buy the drop; people who have oodles of time/will can hunt for it. Please don’t hypocritically say rare things should be special, and then let people buy/sell “legendaries”.

This would be perfectly fine if there wasn’t a cash shop.

For people that like to play competitively (like myself), the fact that some jerk can swipe their credit card and have more ingame wealth than me is annoying to say the least.

Competitive wealth? That has got to be the worst ideal i have every head in my life. Any way the gems to gold is bad very bad and will most likely never out do any thing like a tp flipper if your going after real “competitive wealth.” Other then that skins more of what ppl want i am not sure how that can be competitive.

The only thing i can think of that competitive out side of pvp and wvw would be having high rng skins but to remove a lot of the rng would remove the uniqueness of these skins and there by the competitiveness of the pve.

Purple Miku.7032:

Sytherek.7689:

3) Sell rare drops in the trading post for gems. People with money can buy the drop; people who have oodles of time/will can hunt for it. Please don’t hypocritically say rare things should be special, and then let people buy/sell “legendaries”.

This would be perfectly fine if there wasn’t a cash shop.

For people that like to play competitively (like myself), the fact that some jerk can swipe their credit card and have more ingame wealth than me is annoying to say the least.

No need to be insulting. People who use credit cards are not “jerks”. They just have a different way of acquiring items. And I don’t see those of us with credit cards insulting your choice of gameplay.

Purple Miku.7032:

Jski.6180:

Purple Miku.7032:

Sytherek.7689:

3) Sell rare drops in the trading post for gems. People with money can buy the drop; people who have oodles of time/will can hunt for it. Please don’t hypocritically say rare things should be special, and then let people buy/sell “legendaries”.

This would be perfectly fine if there wasn’t a cash shop.

For people that like to play competitively (like myself), the fact that some jerk can swipe their credit card and have more ingame wealth than me is annoying to say the least.

Competitive wealth? That has got to be the worst ideal i have every head in my life. Any way the gems to gold is bad very bad and will most likely never out do any thing like a tp flipper if your going after real “competitive wealth.” Other then that skins more of what ppl want i am not sure how that can be competitive.

So you think my ideal of being competitive in an online game for acquiring wealth is a worse ideal than say, the devastation that was invisioned by those issuing the events that occurred in Pearl Harbor or the Holocaust?

That’s interesting.

Odd that you would put it that way but thoughts where EVENTS and they did not ask me nor did i hear them before they did it. I am guessing that the go to shock down ppl points of view kind of sad that you cant come up with a good counter argument that why wealth can be competitive i even came up with one for pve competitiveness that some what related to wealth though i think you missed that part of my post.

Sytherek.7689:

Excessive RNG is bad and frustrates players. Frustrated players don’t recommend the game and don’t spend money in the store.

RNG in GW2 is not excessive. Excessive would mean there’s too much RNG. In GW2, most rewards are time-gated rather than obtained as rare drops. The exceptions are precursors, gambling in the MT (usually for precursors) and a few rare drops from certain content.

The real problems with RNG are two-fold.

1. The drop tables require luck on more than one table (sometimes more than two tables — see Ascended drops) to get a desirable drop.
2. There are too few types of drops where the actual drop is the desired result (see T6 mats, which are only a means to an end). Psychologically, this means few to no moments where one says, “Hey, I got a great drop.”

The word I’d use for #1 is “miserly.” For #2, I’d say that this is a function of GW2 rewards being mostly incremental rather than serendipitous. Even precursors, the GW2 holy grail of drops can be gotten incrementally. The word I’d use for #2 is “unexciting.”

As to fixing the problems? Redesigning the drop tables to allow better access to carrots designed to extend time played is unlikely as long as there are so few long term goals in this game. And fixing #2 would mean more RNG, not less.

OP, I agree 100% with everything you pointed out and proposed as a solution to improving this flaky RNG system.

Games are supposed to be fun, not frustrating. They also shouldn’t be a ‘second job’ to get something shiny.

Sytherek.7689:

I have been a developer on AAA titles and specifically, MMOs. This article is less about criticizing ANet and more about them making the game more fun.

RNG is bad for MMOs. Here’s why:

1) RNG as implemented fosters player rancor.
I post that I haven’t found an item after opening 100 chest, someone else post they found it in the 2nd chest and they don’t see a problem.

2) RNG as implemented isn’t fair.
Nope, life ain’t fair. GW2 is not life, it is a game. It is entertainment. Frustration is not fun.

3) RNG as implemented isn’t fun.
Putting a desirable item behind RNG is a recipe for making people frustrated. Something that always drops is meaningless; something that never drops causes frustration. A balance must be struck.

4) RNG as implemented is illogical.
People who want the item do not get it. People who don’t want the item do. Since items cannot be sold in the trading post, this again creates frustration.

GW2 would be a better game and more fun if:

1) Allow rare drops to be sold. Remove account binding.

2) Improve the chance of a rare item drop the more a person tries to get it. I suspect ANet will say they can’t do this due to “technical limitations”.

3) Sell rare drops in the trading post for gems. People with money can buy the drop; people who have oodles of time/will can hunt for it. Please don’t hypocritically say rare things should be special, and then let people buy/sell “legendaries”.
RNG is fun and entertaining.

Excessive RNG is bad and frustrates players. Frustrated players don’t recommend the game and don’t spend money in the store.

Computers cannot randomize, they use a peusdo randomizing routine. Currently the “best” uses atmospheric noise to determine a seed number. But it still is not true randomizing. Why? Random is a concept, once you write code to emmulate it, the event is no longer random. QED.

That said RNG’s are very faulty and prone to work improperly. Some uses are easily manipulated and easily over worked. They will be the main cause imho for the demise of online games that exist based on microtranactions. In short, once the laws catch up with online games I feel fairly safe in saying the use of RNG’s as a money maker will be stopped, or at the very least governed by existing gambling laws.

You can’t have a game without RNG, but it should not be a factor in acquiring significant end-game goals (In this case, legendaries).

Sytherek.7689:

Opening more chests, however, does not guarantee getting a fossilize insect.

No, but I think we are all well aware that NOT opening ONE more chest is absolutely a guaranteed way to NOT get another one…..THAT’s my point.

You can’t have a game without RNG, but it should not be a factor in acquiring significant end-game goals (In this case, legendaries).

Why not? I would seriously like to hear your reasoning behind the logic that led you to this belief. (BTW, you can actually obtain a Legendary within minutes of completing the the tutorial if you have the gold to purchase one, so RNG is NOT the only factor).

Evon Skyfyre.9673:

Computers cannot randomize, they use a peusdo randomizing routine. Currently the “best” uses atmospheric noise to determine a seed number. But it still is not true randomizing. Why? Random is a concept, once you write code to emmulate it, the event is no longer random. QED.

Awfully non sequitur and pedantic of you. I could give a dissertation on psuedo-random number generation (I have, actually), a discuss the merits of KISS versus the Marsenne Twister, or the use of true stochastic sources in quantum computers, but none of that is relevant to this thread.

The algorithm is a non-issue, unless they’re using a short-period, repeating algebraic or multiplicative algorithm with a non-stochastic seed (say, the character name). If they are being so simplistic, that lends credence to folk who think their character name reflects “luck.” I assume ANet is using a reasonable yet simple (for speed) randomizer.

I could post papers and statistical studies, but that would further drag this discussion off topic.

On topic: The randomizer used is important, but I believe the problem lies in their APPLICATION of that randomizer. The problem is in usage, not algorithm.

pdavis.8031:

In any case, while RNG may be frustrating, and causing people to QQ about it, there is one thing it does well: It keeps everyone on the same level of playing field. Of course you can increase your odds with higher luck, but obtaining higher luck is something everyone can do simply playing the game. It fits in perfectly with Anets goal of horizontal progression. Adding in special items for completing special tasks, throws in vertical progression. Once something like that gets implement (if ever) it will cause even more people to QQ about that. That with “their play schedule they can’t do those events”, “it’s become a gear grind” and/or “it’s unfair that I am forced to play certain content just to get X item.”

I disagree. Random is random. It levels very little except over the extreme long term. The “luck” attribute does not apply to chests or boss drops.

Sytherek.7689:

pdavis.8031:

In any case, while RNG may be frustrating, and causing people to QQ about it, there is one thing it does well: It keeps everyone on the same level of playing field. Of course you can increase your odds with higher luck, but obtaining higher luck is something everyone can do simply playing the game. It fits in perfectly with Anets goal of horizontal progression. Adding in special items for completing special tasks, throws in vertical progression. Once something like that gets implement (if ever) it will cause even more people to QQ about that. That with “their play schedule they can’t do those events”, “it’s become a gear grind” and/or “it’s unfair that I am forced to play certain content just to get X item.”

I disagree. Random is random. It levels very little except over the extreme long term. The “luck” attribute does not apply to chests or boss drops.

While “Luck” doesn’t apply to chests, or boss chests, it means that No matter how high or low your “Luck” is you still have the same chance of finding a rare/exotic item as everyone else. But I still maintain that adding in this form of “Vertical progression” would only be a catalyst for players feeling that they are forced, or unable, to participate incertain content just to get X item. Of course random is random. But if everyone is operating on the same level of random, everyone has the same chance to get X item as everyone else, instead of locking X item behind something not everyone would be able to participate in.

Dusty Moon.4382:

It would be nice if instead of posting what is bad, you could post suggestions as to how to improve it. Since, you are a supposed AAA developer, how can you change it?

The negativity of your post guarantees that most of the replies will be negative also. Nice way to start a pile on thread.

Since when is it anet ever going to listen to changes that impact the economy?
They do whats best for their wallets which is gemstore and having a massive RNG on all the goodies.
What on earth is the point of posting suggestions when they won’t listen.
Every one in this community knows for the past 2 years the RNG system reward system is atrocious. None of this bullkitten is fun for the players outside of the 1% that get lucky

Brother Grimm.5176:

Why not? I would seriously like to hear your reasoning behind the logic that led you to this belief. (BTW, you can actually obtain a Legendary within minutes of completing the the tutorial if you have the gold to purchase one, so RNG is NOT the only factor).

If there’s no RNG, then how would loot be decided? And what would happen to Magic Find?
To purchase a Legendary, someone had to craft it with the precursor, which he looted or bought from someone who looted it, therefore RNG is involved in the making of EVERY Legendary.

Random, Luck, we’re arguing concepts now lol. Why not Freudian Geometry? Or Neolithic character builds vs Nihilistic? Come on let’s have a really important conversation, one that could be the single most important conversation you’ve ever had.

Would you like a jelly baby?

That said, here is a good article on the RNG. http://engineering.mit.edu/ask/can-computer-generate-truly-random-number

Sytherek.7689:

Evon Skyfyre.9673:

Computers cannot randomize, they use a peusdo randomizing routine. Currently the “best” uses atmospheric noise to determine a seed number. But it still is not true randomizing. Why? Random is a concept, once you write code to emmulate it, the event is no longer random. QED.

Awfully non sequitur and pedantic of you. I could give a dissertation on psuedo-random number generation (I have, actually), a discuss the merits of KISS versus the Marsenne Twister, or the use of true stochastic sources in quantum computers, but none of that is relevant to this thread.

The algorithm is a non-issue, unless they’re using a short-period, repeating algebraic or multiplicative algorithm with a non-stochastic seed (say, the character name). If they are being so simplistic, that lends credence to folk who think their character name reflects “luck.” I assume ANet is using a reasonable yet simple (for speed) randomizer.

I could post papers and statistical studies, but that would further drag this discussion off topic.

On topic: The randomizer used is important, but I believe the problem lies in their APPLICATION of that randomizer. The problem is in usage, not algorithm.

I can sum up my thoughts on this in two ways, a dissertation is either ver batum regurgitation or the restating and often mis quoting of reputed facts. At best speculation at worse, hyperbole. (Unless you yourself do ALL the work, develop ALL theories and document all results, you are at the mercy of someone elses work, or lack there of.)

To that end, here is a picture of a rabbit with a pancake on his head. Which is indeed factual, and makes more sense than this entire argument. RNG’s will be used until the lawmakers say otherwise. Case closed.. This kangaroo court is adjourned.

I’m not sure why this is an issue, luck is a major part of MMO’s any drop from a boss is luck. Sure there is some statistics relevant to when you should expect to see any given drop based of the simple math of chests open vs. items acquired. What you are seeking seems to be a low % drop rate. And on top of that you seem quite unlucky. Improve your chances by opening more. You may find the nest 3 you open each contain one, increasing your % of drop back to the norm. Or, possibly you are forever doomed. However statistically, that is impossible =D