Guild Wars 2

Dusty Moon.4382:

You can probably also buy them as many of the skins are shared. Also, that does not change the fact that it is pure looks only, not FUNCTIONAL. If it was functional that is one thing, looks are totally subjective and a matter of preference. It has nothing to do with the game is working as intended and has everything to do with ‘Look AT Me’ syndrome.

In a game where a primary goal is cosmetic, cosmetic matters. What else beyond cosmetics and achievements does GW2 offer? The game is openly focused on appearances. So appearances matter, or the game loses one of its major goals.

Dusty Moon.4382:

You can probably also buy them as many of the skins are shared. Also, that does not change the fact that it is pure looks only, not FUNCTIONAL. If it was functional that is one thing, looks are totally subjective and a matter of preference. It has nothing to do with the game is working as intended and has everything to do with ‘Look AT Me’ syndrome.

Your opinion about what is subjective and what is relevant is subjective, stop trolling and add to the discussion please.

If you polled players and asked how they would feel about getting these skins in the open world from loot, you would get a resounding yes in my opinion. Now that said I get you need to maintain the economy but not everything needs to be controlled that way. It should be a 50/50 type scenario and open up far more items within the gem store as well to make up for the loss of RNG revenue. Players aren’t stupid and they know just how poor the odds are in RNG so trying to mask it through BLCs and ticket scraps is insulting. Many players would happily buy outright rather than getting slapped in the face repeatedly trying to get an item they desire, cosmetic or functional.

I agree with the OP. RNG is the reason i’m not even going to try. I don’t like gambling in real life, and especially in a video game, which is basically gambling on time being wasted.

The way i see it, RNG isn’t so bad, because it gives an element of surprise when you get an item. When you put RNG on a desirable object though, or an “end-game” reward, then it doesn’t feel rewarding, since you have to rely on luck, instead of skill.

Good RNG, is named-exotic loot from chests or bags. There is an element of surprise when you get it. Another example is Tequatl or Wurm. There are specific skins to obtain from them, and since the bosses can’t be farmed continuously in the span of 10-15 minutes, it frees up the player’s time to do other things.

With this current method, you have to farm mobs, events, achievements, and geodes to obtain keys, then you have to waste time waiting for the sandstorms, which can’t be controlled or known when they appear. And then after all that, you have to rely luck by opening chests.

It’s just a multi-step process with no guarantee of success, which relies on luck.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

I think the core problem here is “too bad rng”, not rng in itself. What if each zone could give a bonus on rng/magicfind (for chests too) if you invest time to play the zone in a variety of ways. The new zone-achievements would be a way, another would be to find as many unique events on a map as possible. Over time you’d get rewarded with good luck because you invested time in exploring a zone and getting achievements for it.

something like that:

• enhanced loot chances for getting achievement xy for the specific zone
• enhanced loot chances for finding new events
• enhanced loot chances for killing new champions
• enhanced loot chances for talking to certain npcs
  …

This way, for example, the dropchance of the fossil could go to up to 30% per rare chest. The more you do in a zone, the better the chance.

(a bit like a reward track for zones)

That would be an excellent idea. It would be like WvW with map-wide bonuses.

Axelwarrior.9084:

…..To purchase a Legendary, someone had to craft it with the precursor, which he looted or bought from someone who looted it, therefore RNG is involved in the making of EVERY Legendary.

You’re just being obtuse rather than admit there is an option that does not depend on YOUR RNG…..it’s impossible to have an intelligent conversation in this place.

(BTW, I was not questioning your statement about games needing RNG in general).

The suggestion that the game should be designed to give out rewards based entirely on what players want would pretty much make the “game” a free giveaway website….kind of an idiotic suggestion.

…..waste time waiting for the sandstorms, which can’t be controlled or known when they appear. And then after all that, you have to rely luck by opening chests.

If you spent a bit of time researching you might KNOW that the Sandstorms ALWAYS have started every :40 on the hour and last til the top of the hour. You complaining about how this process has no guarantee of reward is just bunk…you get plenty of rewards….maybe just not the one you WANT. BIG difference.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Axelwarrior.9084:

…..To purchase a Legendary, someone had to craft it with the precursor, which he looted or bought from someone who looted it, therefore RNG is involved in the making of EVERY Legendary.

You’re just being obtuse rather than admit there is an option that does not depend on YOUR RNG…..it’s impossible to have an intelligent conversation in this place.

Can you find me a place on the Internet to have an intelligent conversation?

That said, most people think a 1/3 pound burger is SMALLER than a 1/4 one (google it, news today). Numbers and mathematical concepts are beyond many people.

Maybe we’ll get “lucky”, and ANet will decide to give us a deterministic way (even a slow one) of getting the bug.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Axelwarrior.9084:

…..To purchase a Legendary, someone had to craft it with the precursor, which he looted or bought from someone who looted it, therefore RNG is involved in the making of EVERY Legendary.

You’re just being obtuse rather than admit there is an option that does not depend on YOUR RNG…..it’s impossible to have an intelligent conversation in this place.

(BTW, I was not questioning your statement about games needing RNG in general).

The suggestion that the game should be designed to give out rewards based entirely on what players want would pretty much make the “game” a free giveaway website….kind of an idiotic suggestion.

…..waste time waiting for the sandstorms, which can’t be controlled or known when they appear. And then after all that, you have to rely luck by opening chests.

If you spent a bit of time researching you might KNOW that the Sandstorms ALWAYS have started every :40 on the hour and last til the top of the hour. You complaining about how this process has no guarantee of reward is just bunk…you get plenty of rewards….maybe just not the one you WANT. BIG difference.

Thanks for clearing that up then. I thought they were dependent on the rate of events, and that the timer was started by triggered events. I didn’t know it was synchronized like the world bosses. It still doesn’t negate the fact, that it’s another gated process to obtain a reward.

And, no. It’s not about what i want. It’s about discussing the pros and cons, on the process of obtaining the items. That’s the BIG difference.

Maybe I should ask about the fossilized insect in the bug forums?

:)

Brother Grimm.5176:

You complaining about how this process has no guarantee of reward is just bunk…you get plenty of rewards….maybe just not the one you WANT. BIG difference.

It’s not a reward if I don’t want it.

Like, say, my 5th scarf.

I don’t need gold, so it just uses up bank space.

Sytherek.7689:

I don’t need gold, so it just uses up bank space.

Sorry for being rude, but this seems just stupid. If you don’t want it, why do you keep it, when you can turn it into money (even if you don’t need money).

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Sytherek.7689:

I don’t need gold, so it just uses up bank space.

Sorry for being rude, but this seems just stupid. If you don’t want it, why do you keep it, when you can turn it into money (even if you don’t need money).

I keep it to give someone else who wants it.

I’m not going to throw away something relatively rare someone else might want, just because I I don’t want it.

And yes, calling someone “stupid” is rude. Fortunately, I’ve been on the Internet since before it was called “the Internet”, so my skin’s pretty thick. Continue to be rude if you find it therapeutic.

Sytherek.7689:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Sytherek.7689:

I don’t need gold, so it just uses up bank space.

Sorry for being rude, but this seems just stupid. If you don’t want it, why do you keep it, when you can turn it into money (even if you don’t need money).

…Fortunately, I’ve been on the Internet since before it was called “the Internet”, so my skin’s pretty thick…

OMG old DARPA people lurking on the forum!

KarateKid.5648:

Sytherek.7689:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Sytherek.7689:

I don’t need gold, so it just uses up bank space.

Sorry for being rude, but this seems just stupid. If you don’t want it, why do you keep it, when you can turn it into money (even if you don’t need money).

…Fortunately, I’ve been on the Internet since before it was called “the Internet”, so my skin’s pretty thick…

OMG old DARPA people lurking on the forum!

Yup. I’m too old for this kitten. 75 chests, still no bug.

didn’t call you stupid, I said that that action seemed stupid, nothing more…

Sytherek.7689:

KarateKid.5648:

Sytherek.7689:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Sytherek.7689:

I don’t need gold, so it just uses up bank space.

Sorry for being rude, but this seems just stupid. If you don’t want it, why do you keep it, when you can turn it into money (even if you don’t need money).

…Fortunately, I’ve been on the Internet since before it was called “the Internet”, so my skin’s pretty thick…

OMG old DARPA people lurking on the forum!

Yup. I’m too old for this kitten. 75 chests, still no bug.

I was fully expecting a counter-post like “when we were online gaming, we had to manually CARRY the packets UPSTREAM… through 4 Barrel Connectors… both ways!”

Ok, enough derailing the topic for me

KarateKid.5648:

Sytherek.7689:

KarateKid.5648:

Sytherek.7689:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Sytherek.7689:

I don’t need gold, so it just uses up bank space.

Sorry for being rude, but this seems just stupid. If you don’t want it, why do you keep it, when you can turn it into money (even if you don’t need money).

…Fortunately, I’ve been on the Internet since before it was called “the Internet”, so my skin’s pretty thick…

OMG old DARPA people lurking on the forum!

Yup. I’m too old for this kitten. 75 chests, still no bug.

I was fully expecting a counter-post like “when we were online gaming, we had to manually CARRY the packets UPSTREAM… through 4 Barrel Connectors… both ways!”

Ok, enough derailing the topic for me

We used to store our data on stone tablets, and we liked it that way!

I’m so old, I beta tested the real original Wolfenstein, before it was 3D! Character-based on an Apple II….

I’m so old, I remember when Guild Wars 1 was announced!

I’m going to die of old age before I get a @!%&!! fossilized bug.

Hell, I’M so old that I remember a time where you had to program your OWN games from a book because floppy discs and cassettes weren’t reliable enough to store data on yet.

I’m not THAT old, but I remember the days when we had to fiddle around with EMS and XMS memory in DOS because games just didn’t have the available memory to run them otherwise.

chemiclord.3978:

Hell, I’M so old that I remember a time where you had to program your OWN games from a book because floppy discs and cassettes weren’t reliable enough to store data on yet.

I remember punching holes in cards to program the games. (That was a pain). >.>

Sytherek.7689:

KarateKid.5648:

Sytherek.7689:

KarateKid.5648:

Sytherek.7689:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Sytherek.7689:

I don’t need gold, so it just uses up bank space.

Sorry for being rude, but this seems just stupid. If you don’t want it, why do you keep it, when you can turn it into money (even if you don’t need money).

…Fortunately, I’ve been on the Internet since before it was called “the Internet”, so my skin’s pretty thick…

OMG old DARPA people lurking on the forum!

Yup. I’m too old for this kitten. 75 chests, still no bug.

I was fully expecting a counter-post like “when we were online gaming, we had to manually CARRY the packets UPSTREAM… through 4 Barrel Connectors… both ways!”

Ok, enough derailing the topic for me

…

I’m going to die of old age before I get a @!%&!! fossilized bug.

Well, it does take a lot of time for them to fossilize – maybe you’re rolling the young bugs and just gotta wait?

il address whats wrong with the OP’s complaints in order
1. it does not foster bitness unless you are dealing with an already bitter person, if you are the type of person who is jelous that is your own problem, a healthy person would see another player getting a good drop from a chest as an encouraging sign to soldier on.
2. isnt fair? you have confused the words “fair” and “equal” they are not identical, you dont get equal loot to everyone else, but you do get equal CHANCE of getting the same loot as them, thus it is fair, you are factually anarguably wrong on this point
3. same mistake as in point 1. if you are an impatient person, you will get fustrated, if you are not an impatient person, you will not get fustrated, dont lump everyone together i personaly love random drops as i never know what i am going to get (though i will say i wish gw2 had more variety in its loot not just gear and simple materials)
4. i have no idea what logic your working with but i assure you it is logical. just because someone does not get what they want does not make it “illogical” do you know how horrible of a place the world would be if everyone got what they wanted? dealing with dissapointment and adversity is healthy it helps you foster perseverence, if you give up and get fustrated you dont deserve the item you want…..also what do u mean cant be sold on the tp? everything desirable can be sold on the tp except a few ascended materials.

ok now for your suggestions…..
1. rare drops ARE sellable, except ascended and this was a great idea on anet’s part because players do need something unsellable to work for, or they will buy it and become board and quit, the alternative is to make the item SO RARE that it has insane prices….but that returns to your RNG complaint, in short their is just no pleasing you
2. so the opposite of diminishing returns? this is doable but consider the consequences, an item is rare every1 wants it its expensive, every1 does the content, every1 gets BETTER chances of getting the content, every1 gets the loot they want, now nobody buys it so its undesirable and defeats the point, again people NEED something difficult to strive for, giving them what they want is usually the worst thing for them.
3. you assume people would WANT to buy it for gems? and what would this do to anet’s gem store prices? u kno that thing that keeps the game free to play?

I’m so old, I knew the insect BEFORE it was fossilized.

Duke Nukem.6783:

2. so the opposite of diminishing returns? this is doable but consider the consequences, an item is rare every1 wants it its expensive, every1 does the content, every1 gets BETTER chances of getting the content, every1 gets the loot they want, now nobody buys it so its undesirable and defeats the point

The whole thread was caused by the fossilized insect drops, which aren’t sellable.
Also, not everyone is like you. Not everyone thinks that rarity equals desirability. For many people, those two concepts are completely separate.

So, you were saying?

ozmaniandevil.6805:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Sytherek.7689:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Sytherek.7689:

Great suggestions in this thread.

I doubt ANet will pay any attention. “Working as intended” will be their mantra.

It is working as intended. Want a Legendary – it is an optional grind. Same with Ascended items – optional.

You can be very competitive even with Green Items in GW2, if you know how to play.

Which has nothing to do with this thread. I’m not talking about ascended items (have’em) or green items or anything you brought up. All those items are attainable via “hard” work.

The issue I raise is that a cosmetic item is ONLY available via pure, unmitigated LUCK. No matter how many chests I open, it is very possible the item will not drop. No amount of perseverance, digital sweat, or money can guarantee me the item.

I’d be glad to work for an insect. ANet won’t let me work for it.

It’s not laziness, or lack of trying, or lack of initiative, or unwillingness to spend money.

It’s a matter of LUCK only.

You can probably also buy them as many of the skins are shared. Also, that does not change the fact that it is pure looks only, not FUNCTIONAL. If it was functional that is one thing, looks are totally subjective and a matter of preference. It has nothing to do with the game is working as intended and has everything to do with ‘Look AT Me’ syndrome.

I’m sorry, I usually try to stay out of internet drama, but you really seem to just be argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. It’s like you’re not even reading the posts but feel the need to completely be opposed to anything the OP says. Why? Please add to the discussion rather than try to derail the topic.

It does not matter what function an item has or why someone might want it. It is not necessary to lock it behind a pure luck mechanic when there are alternatives that would be better and make players happy without giving it away.

I am not trying to cause drama. This game has Cosmetics as an option. It doesn’t mean it is necessary and that is the truth. That is all I am pointing out.

If you don’t want drama, coming to a game forum is the exact opposite thing I would do.

Dusty Moon.4382:

Cosmetics are the are a huge part of PvE end-game. By design. That’s Guild Wars.

The insect is cosmetics and a promoted feature of the living story.

Why should I care about the living story if the rewards are locked behind arbitrary luck?

I’ll end up playing a few hours a month and not spending money at the trading post. I don’t think that’s what ANet wants.

See, making the skins attainable is an incentive to playing and paying. Lock me out of content, and I’ll find other passtimes to spend money on.

They should just follow the SAB model.
You can either find sellable versions of the rewards at a small random chance, or a good amount of tokens otherwise. The tokens can also be obtained while playing the content, and can be used to get an account bound version of a reward of choice once you get enough. This rewards effort and gives an incentive to play that content, unlike the current rewards – where quite often it is just more convenient to farm gold and buy them at the trading post than to actually obtain it personally.

The case in question is an account bound item found by rng, so it is a bit different. Putting it sellable at the npc via geodes wouldn’t make sense, as you already have to use them to get the lockpicks to open the chest. Thus, i would say: implement an item called Piece of Fossilized Amber. You can either find an unidentified fossilized insect, or some pieces of Fossilized Amber. Once you get enough of those – let’s say, 100 – you can exchange them at the npc for an Ambrite Fossilized Insect.
Thus either you get it by luck, or you get it by effort. But you get it either way, and you haven’t wasted hours for naught.

Dusty Moon.4382:

ozmaniandevil.6805:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Sytherek.7689:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Sytherek.7689:

Great suggestions in this thread.

I doubt ANet will pay any attention. “Working as intended” will be their mantra.

It is working as intended. Want a Legendary – it is an optional grind. Same with Ascended items – optional.

You can be very competitive even with Green Items in GW2, if you know how to play.

Which has nothing to do with this thread. I’m not talking about ascended items (have’em) or green items or anything you brought up. All those items are attainable via “hard” work.

The issue I raise is that a cosmetic item is ONLY available via pure, unmitigated LUCK. No matter how many chests I open, it is very possible the item will not drop. No amount of perseverance, digital sweat, or money can guarantee me the item.

I’d be glad to work for an insect. ANet won’t let me work for it.

It’s not laziness, or lack of trying, or lack of initiative, or unwillingness to spend money.

It’s a matter of LUCK only.

You can probably also buy them as many of the skins are shared. Also, that does not change the fact that it is pure looks only, not FUNCTIONAL. If it was functional that is one thing, looks are totally subjective and a matter of preference. It has nothing to do with the game is working as intended and has everything to do with ‘Look AT Me’ syndrome.

I’m sorry, I usually try to stay out of internet drama, but you really seem to just be argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. It’s like you’re not even reading the posts but feel the need to completely be opposed to anything the OP says. Why? Please add to the discussion rather than try to derail the topic.

It does not matter what function an item has or why someone might want it. It is not necessary to lock it behind a pure luck mechanic when there are alternatives that would be better and make players happy without giving it away.

I am not trying to cause drama. This game has Cosmetics as an option. It doesn’t mean it is necessary and that is the truth. That is all I am pointing out.

If you don’t want drama, coming to a game forum is the exact opposite thing I would do.

Cosmetics as an option?….you do realize it’s literally the ONLY OPTION if you are looking for endgame goals (at least PvE wise)… of course it’s not necessary but its literally the only thing in terms of goals in this unrewarding PvE endgame.. What else you gonna do besides try to get better costumes?

And its locked behind a paywall or purely RNG (or you can just bore yourself by grinding the same dungs for weeks and buy with gold)

Fractal skins are something I would LOVE to work towards but guess what, it’s again, based purely on RNG and worst of all, you can’t even decide what skin you want… just pray its not a freaking fractal harpoon gun or some crap…. what kind of logic does this reward system use? none.

Sytherek.7689:

It’s not a reward if I don’t want it.
……

I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a more self-centered and twisted bit of logic on display here…..BRAVO!

(This is definitely a “Quote of the Month” candidate….)

Hell, I’M so old that I remember a time where you had to program your OWN games from a book because floppy discs and cassettes weren’t reliable enough to store data on yet.

Gotcha beat. Programmed my first computer course with Punchcards….luckily only for one semester. On a side note, it definitely encouraged tight code.

For the most part I agree with the original poster that RNG only items are inherently frustrating for players. A little bit about me as the original poster shared his background bit. I work in the video game industry primarily as an animator. This said any good animator has a fairly good understanding of game design, at least as it relates to animation concerns. One thing I thought should have been introduced (or included) is a way to earn RNG skins.

For example take the old bounty system from GW1 and rework it with the Black Lion trading company. Let players have the option to undertake Black Lion missions a certain number of times per day at various difficulties. Depending upon the difficulty of the mission the player gains a certain amount of “fame” (XP) and at a certain amount of total “fame” the player receives a Black Lion Ticket scrap. This is really a modification of the PVP reward system brought over to PVE that would allow designers to direct players to unpopulated zones, allow them to work towards long term goals more then say a daily, adjust the rate of return, and keep the players logging in.

The downside is the potential loss of revenue and the potential for inflation. I don’t have any information as to how much gold is taken out of the economy via gem conversion but I cant imagine that he compulsive player base that wants the skin now would refrain too much from buying in favor of this system.

Just my two cents that isn’t worth that much on one way to approach the problem in the original post.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Sytherek.7689:

It’s not a reward if I don’t want it.
……

I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a more self-centered and twisted bit of logic on display here…..BRAVO!

(This is definitely a “Quote of the Month” candidate….)

Hell, I’M so old that I remember a time where you had to program your OWN games from a book because floppy discs and cassettes weren’t reliable enough to store data on yet.

Gotcha beat. Programmed my first computer course with Punchcards….luckily only for one semester. On a side note, it definitely encouraged tight code.

Univac 1110. Punch cards. First paid job, 1975 at age 13. (twirls and holsters his manual card punch tool, used to “fix” bad punches, still have as a conversation piece)

On topic. If I give a toy car to a starving kid, it’s not a reward. He wants a meal.

I don’t need more freakin’ dragonite. It’s not a reward. Sure, “technically” the dragonite is a reward, but I don’t want it. Believe me, I don’t need it.

So, I should be able to buy/sell it to someone who has a fossilized bug they don’t want. Oh my word! That’s being social in a social game!

How the heket is “gosh” a kitten word?

Sytherek.7689:

On topic. If I give a toy car to a starving kid, it’s not a reward. He wants a meal.

This is a horrific analogy as what YOU WANT in a video game is nowhere near the same as what a starving child NEEDS to continue to live. The fact that you don’t see THAT difference further reinforces my original claim. Also, the starving child has no expectation of any return and invested no effort, so that would qualify the toy car as a gift.

You are now trying to redefine the word “reward” to make your outlandish statement more “acceptable”….good try.

Now if you want to backpedal a bit and state, “it’s not much of a reward if I don’t want it.”, then that’s a reasonable statement.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Sytherek.7689:

On topic. If I give a toy car to a starving kid, it’s not a reward. He wants a meal.

This is a horrific analogy as what YOU WANT in a video game is nowhere near the same as what a starving child NEEDS to continue to live. The fact that you don’t see THAT difference further reinforces my original claim. Also, the starving child has no expectation of any return and invested no effort, so that would qualify the toy car as a gift.

You are now trying to redefine the word “reward” to make your outlandish statement more “acceptable”….good try.

Now if you want to backpedal a bit and state, “it’s not much of a reward if I don’t want it.”, then that’s a reasonable statement.

How about:

Giving someone something they don’t want isn’t much of a gift?

And yes, my analogy was extreme, but I still say all gifts are not desirable. Just because ANet gives me something doesn’t mean is rewarding.

From the dictionary:

rewarding [ri-wawr-ding]
adjective
1. affording satisfaction, valuable experience, or the like; worthwhile.

The current “rewards” are not satisfying, they are not valuable (I can’t use’em or give them away), and they’re not worthwhile.

If you got a gift from my mother you’d find out how much of a non-gift a gift can be :p … just sayin’.

While I agree 99% with the OP, what we find in chests does have some value, however small, as in I can salvage the blues and greens and sell the materials for a few coppers. Ooooooohhhhh aaaahhhhhh the excitement!!!!! Let me just sit down and enjoy that before I fall over with glee….. o_o

Soooo back to the actual original post, the “rewards” in chests that you find in random caves after fighting off usually more than one vet, are unsatisfyingly boring to open and provide, in and of themselves, no reason to feel even remotely excited by doing so.

Sytherek.7689:

How about:

Giving someone something they don’t want isn’t much of a gift?

And yes, my analogy was extreme, but I still say all gifts are not desirable. Just because ANet gives me something doesn’t mean is rewarding.

From the dictionary:

rewarding [ri-wawr-ding]
adjective
1. affording satisfaction, valuable experience, or the like; worthwhile.

The current “rewards” are not satisfying, they are not valuable (I can’t use’em or give them away), and they’re not worthwhile.

Again, you are twisting the subject to suit your argument…. the word was NOT REWARDing but REWARD

re·ward
ri?wôrd/Submit
noun
1.
a thing given in recognition of one’s service, effort, or achievement.

I rest my case.

BTW, I’m not opposed to being able to sell the Bugs at all. I’d love to make some gold over this idiotic argument.

it’s pretty much the same as dungeons but with real money/allot more farming.
i never got the obsession on boxes that “might” contain something, just make a vendor that sells the skins and be done with it.
2G is all it needs, no need to make everything so extremely exclusive to farmers and never let any casual have some nice things.
it’s a game to pass the time for cryin out loud, is it so difficult to understand that we’re suppose to have fun, instead we’re complaining all the time that things can’t be reach while Anet just ignores it all and continues to add even more exclusive crap.

more fun, less grind, PLEASE!!!!!!

I view account-bound RNG drops as a very non-ideal mechanism for extending content lifespan. If RNG is used, it should be ‘limited’; I think it’s desirable to place a definite cap on the amount of effort/time needed to attain a desired item.

For example, the fossilized bugs should be available from merchants for some fixed number of geodes (or maybe a significant amount of gold), or non-account bound. Another alternative would be to keep a “maximum failures” limit for a particular class of drop. e.g., if I open 99 chests in a row and don’t get a fossilized bug, I will be guaranteed to get one on the 100th chest.

The same applies for Fractal weapons.

RNG does not respect my time, skill, and effort, so I do not respect RNG.

Mr Pin.6728:

For the most part I agree with the original poster that RNG only items are inherently frustrating for players. A little bit about me as the original poster shared his background bit. I work in the video game industry primarily as an animator. This said any good animator has a fairly good understanding of game design, at least as it relates to animation concerns. One thing I thought should have been introduced (or included) is a way to earn RNG skins.

For example take the old bounty system from GW1 and rework it with the Black Lion trading company. Let players have the option to undertake Black Lion missions a certain number of times per day at various difficulties. Depending upon the difficulty of the mission the player gains a certain amount of “fame” (XP) and at a certain amount of total “fame” the player receives a Black Lion Ticket scrap. This is really a modification of the PVP reward system brought over to PVE that would allow designers to direct players to unpopulated zones, allow them to work towards long term goals more then say a daily, adjust the rate of return, and keep the players logging in.

The downside is the potential loss of revenue and the potential for inflation. I don’t have any information as to how much gold is taken out of the economy via gem conversion but I cant imagine that he compulsive player base that wants the skin now would refrain too much from buying in favor of this system.

Just my two cents that isn’t worth that much on one way to approach the problem in the original post.

An idea like that would at least add something to the game by giving other objectives. Fulfill enough quests for a ticket scrap (even a consistent scrap would do) would be great. Even better, how about a crafting daily for the BLTC? It would siphon out excess materials from the Trading Post, reward players in some fashion (with silver and a chance at a ticket scrap maybe), and give us a reason to keep crafting leveled.
And it could be done completely by automation, scanning the market for low value materials in order to set up the quests.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Sytherek.7689:

How about:

Giving someone something they don’t want isn’t much of a gift?

And yes, my analogy was extreme, but I still say all gifts are not desirable. Just because ANet gives me something doesn’t mean is rewarding.

From the dictionary:

rewarding [ri-wawr-ding]
adjective
1. affording satisfaction, valuable experience, or the like; worthwhile.

The current “rewards” are not satisfying, they are not valuable (I can’t use’em or give them away), and they’re not worthwhile.

Again, you are twisting the subject to suit your argument…. the word was NOT REWARDing but REWARD

re·ward
ri?wôrd/Submit
noun
1.
a thing given in recognition of one’s service, effort, or achievement.

I rest my case.

BTW, I’m not opposed to being able to sell the Bugs at all. I’d love to make some gold over this idiotic argument.

Reward:

“any pleasant event that follows a response and therefore increases the likelihood of the response recurring in the future.”

“a stimulus administered to an organism following a correct or desired response that increases the probability of occurrence of the response”

Rewards in MMORPG content often, if not usually, exist to encourage repetition, often beyond the point at which the content itself ceases to be enjoyable, of playable content. They are part of a form of Skinner Box and are a means of stretching content in an attempt to keep up with players who will/can generally devour it far faster than it can be developed.

In the context of an MMO the two definitions I posted are integral to the design of reward models. Those two definitions mean that something that one does not enjoy and that does not encourage one to keep playing is not, by definition and design intent, a reward for that person.

I’m going to give my 2 cents on this topic really quickly. While I see the point of RNG I do agree with the OP and here’s why: I’ve been playing this game since launch, have a high magic find value, do dungeons, events and guild missions consistently, yet I can count the number of exotic drops I’ve had on one hand (And the number of precursors on none) . On the other hand I know someone who joined a couple of months ago and got two precursors in one day. Seems fair right?

After opening 82 chests…

…I finally got my frelling fossilized insect.

That doesn’t change my opinion s expressed in this thread.

I am, however, much happier.

Sytherek.7689:

After opening 82 chests…

…I finally got my frelling fossilized insect.

That doesn’t change my opinion s expressed in this thread.

I am, however, much happier.

Conkittengrats, sir and/or ma’am.

But yes, still no excuse for pure RNG-gates. Even WoW started coughing up tokens that gave extra loot drop chances. (Then again, WoW players never had to earn 250-500 of, well, anything. :P)

I’m a sir.

I had 3 more keys, and decided to use them up.

Chest 85 dropped another fossilized insect. Really.

I have no idea what to do with it, having made my bow. All my characters are themed-out. I’m glad I have it, I’ll save it.

RNG still sucks. Now my other daughter is jealous, because she doesn’t have an insect yet. I’d give her my spare if ANet weren’t being silly with the account-binding.

Odd, I don’t remember crying. Methinks some people just like being rude. Probably some deep-seated psychosis.

As it is, onward to the next inconsistent thinking on the part of ANet. They get it right more often than they get it wrong.

Sytherek.7689:

tigirius.9014:

It’s much much bigger than the skins. Even D3 has converted back to a better system with a 100% better chance of getting these higher end drops and removing the AHcentricness of their title.

This game could use an overhaul in the economy department which would solve many of the things they’ve done to harm not the bots mind you but the playerbase starting with getting rid of the TP entirely.

Cosmetics are just the tip of the overall iceberg of the problem here.

Their resident economist is pretty sure his ideas are perfect, at least that’s the attitude he has in other threads.

I write software for the analysis of commodity markets. So I know a bit about the topic. I take input from people on how to improve my algorithms.

In truth, the Guild Wars 2 economy is well-designed. I shouldn’t be so grouchy, I suppose. So I’ll spend my time doing something else and spending my money somewhere else, until they decide to stop hanging carrots on luck-sticks.

There’s a joke and meme going around the internet now about how GW2 was supposed to bring major changes to the mmo development world according to some, the only thing it brought was the well disguised RMTAH economic model for F2P games. NWO came out shortly after and certain other titles betas are starting to add up to a similar system where you are required basically to spend real money to advance and earning through farming or anything else is forbidden silently.

What’s really surprising is people love it apparently makes me wonder about people sometimes.

RNG wasn’t a good system in 1999 it’s not a good system now and it never will be. In fact there are threads in Wildstar and Swordsman and Defiance all complaining about the same problems with RNG.

I said in another thread, or maybe this one, it all goes back to the ancient Dungeon Master Guide for AD&D back in the late 70s, early 80s. There are a series of tables for determining drops, including having bonuses which shifts reward tables, etc. And that was a few hundred items. Taking quality, level, 8 parts for armor, 19 types for weapons, upgrades, higher quality mats, etc, there are thousands if not tens of thousands of items that can be dropped. RNG is the only practical way to make sure there isn’t a flood of a single type of item due to farming.

I use to think that they should award a precursor if you complete your personal story until I heard that people were creating characters simply to get a free key. It wouldn’t take long until some group figured out the optimal way to get a character to level 80 just to complete the personal story if a precursor was the reward.

You can discourage that by binding the award to either the character or account but then you better be sure the player is getting a reward they are interested in otherwise it’s just junk.

The only really good way I can come up with – in this setup – is to make everything (that isn’t GemStore exclusive) both loot-able and craft-able.
We need the lucky drops fun, that’s sure.
BUT! We also need able to craft most of these things with a balanced effort.
There is a problem with the materials. They’re tradeable, meanwhile the things you could craft a precursor, or a special thing shouldn’t cost gold/$ directly, but playtime & performance instead.

The Laurel system is a really nice one, and I suggest it to offer us items that can be used to craft stuff, precursors included. And not in any way of horrible amounts.

Let’s see an example. You may want… hmm… Azureflame/Aether bow.
You need 100 Charged Lodestone and a lot of other material in the current state, but if you could be able to trade like ~100 Laurel, ~500k Karma and ~1500 Badge to craft it with Huntsman lvl400-500, then it would be a more friendly way to get what you like to, instead of trying to exploit things for gold or directly try to farm lodestones with RNG included.

Special rewarding would also work. Whoever made it to 10k or 15k AP, surely plays well and often, and deserves a Legendary of choice by – in my opinion.

On the part of RNG; I think it’s just broken here somewhere.
“It’s Random!!!” can’t really describe the facts that some just get everything and most gets none.

tigirius.9014:

RNG wasn’t a good system in 1999 it’s not a good system now and it never will be. In fact there are threads in Wildstar and Swordsman and Defiance all complaining about the same problems with RNG.

When I ran table top games, I thought those loot tables were for a lazy GM. They were good for ad lib situations, but when I had time,

Account- and soul-bound loot is an artificial limit that makes no sense logically. Perhaps a very unusual item might attach itself to a specific character, but only for story purposes.

If I buy something in the real world, I can give it away, sell it, or use it myself. Choice is good.

The “binding” system is artificial, an easy way out for capricious gods called “game designers.”

I think some of it is cultural. Game designers are generally from the game industry, walking in the footsteps of their antecedents, feeling innovative by deviating only slightly from tried-and-true formulas.

This same behavior is what slows human evolution in most fields of endeavor; it’s a herd mentality that says “This worked for them, it should work for me.” Designers feel bold for making a few small changes, investors demand “innovation” that fits in narrow boundaries, players tend to like the familiar.

ANet has brilliant designers. Economics and reality limit the scope of their creativity. This is nothing unique to gaming.

I write books. Back in the day before digital books, I had publishers send me an inevitable pair of oxymoronic questions:

“Name successful books that are just like yours.”

“Tell us how your book is unique.”

How can an author/developer create something unique that is the same as extant material?

I’m surprised with the ops background he doesn’t just propose a new mmo on kick starter, propose his ideas, and let the money roll in.

Everyone hates RNG so it should be easy.

Serophous.9085:

I’m surprised with the ops background he doesn’t just propose a new mmo on kick starter, propose his ideas, and let the money roll in.

Everyone hates RNG so it should be easy.

I don’t want to run a game company, and I left the game dev world a decade ago.

KickStarter is not the solution to everything, nor is it any guarantee of success. I much prefer applying game theory to commodity markets. And yes, I am part owner of my company.

All of that is, however, non sequitur to the main topic: I have not seen a single good reason for some parts of the game to be locked behind random chance, while other very similar parts are behind a paywall or can be earned deterministically thru gameplay.

Inconsistency is disatifying.