Guild Wars 2

Great reads, good explanations, thanks Wintyre and those that contributed to the topic.

Maybe there is a solution to cater both sides of the table?

How about offering different gamemodes with and without vertical progression after exotics and level 80?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Different-gamemodes-basic-pro-mode (This is more about different gamemodes in general, but some more constructive input would be welcome).

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

Reaver.9256:

“The interesting and somewhat odd fact is that you have literally scores of games that serve your interest; as far as I know, there is one MMOG on the market that serves mine – GW1 – and it’s 7 years old.”

Not trying to start a fight or anything but what are these scores of games that I can pay for once and get a mmo experience without needing real cash for the cash shop. Eve online I guess you could save up the hundreds of millions of isk and pay for your sub, but that’s a totally different type of game.

The “interest” I was talking about was “endless progression”. How they gather revenue is a different topic.

Endless progression is not my only interest in a game. GW2 is the only one I know that serves my interests.

mulch.2586:

So… did anyone from ArenaNet ever actually say there would be a stat cap?

No, they have said the exact opposite. They have planned higher levels and expansions from day one. With those come stats raises.

mulch.2586:

So… did anyone from ArenaNet ever actually say there would be a stat cap?

Whether or not they said it, and whether or not it is what they meant or implied, is entirely irrelevant to the point of this thread. As I have said in this thread, even if we were entirely mistaken about what we believed their game philosophy to be, that doesn’t change the fact that many of us perceived that this is what they meant, and because of that perception a lot of us enthusiastically supported the game and helped make launch a success.

ANET has made it clear in the AMA on Reddit that this not a stat capped game and it will be stat-progression going forward and that they believe it is in line with their original philosophy.

I started this thread before that AMA. Even if GW2 will not have a stat cap, this thread serves as an examination why so many people are so upset about this, and why it matters so much to them. Many (if not most) of them are not quitting out of protest, but rather because – as I explained in the O.P. – the lack of the stat cap ruins the game for them.

Let’s remember that GW1 sold over 6 million copies. MANY of those people came over to GW2 largely on the assumption that it would carry over those same fundamental principles. That assumption was at least tacitly encouraged by ANET in many posts and blogs in what they said.

I don’t know how much of GW2 population is made up by stat-cappers; it may not be much at all. However, if it is made up in large part by stat-cappers, then threads like this might help ANET understand changes in their gameplay data if a large portion of the player base is not playing anywhere near as much as they used to.

Also, it might help future developers going forward recognize that not everyone want’s endless progression in MMOGs.

Reaver.9256:

mulch.2586:

So… did anyone from ArenaNet ever actually say there would be a stat cap?

No, they have said the exact opposite. They have planned higher levels and expansions from day one. With those come stats raises.

Not to mention this was actually stated in 2011, which people who claim they followed the development of this game seem to have missed.

If you had followed the progression of the game you would have seen that at one point they were talking about how earlier in development they had decided to go with NO LEVELS AT ALL. And how later on they we considering having infinite levels (much like you continue to gain “invisible levels” for skill points, it would just be a cosmetic thing).
Between this and “GW2 takes everything you love about GW1”, it was strongly implied.

All in all, this is moot now.

Amonde Daneren.2380:

All in all, this is moot now.

Woot! Moot means party!!!

tkalamba.2541:

Reaver.9256:

mulch.2586:

So… did anyone from ArenaNet ever actually say there would be a stat cap?

No, they have said the exact opposite. They have planned higher levels and expansions from day one. With those come stats raises.

Not to mention this was actually stated in 2011, which people who claim they followed the development of this game seem to have missed.

I’d like to read that. I’ve been looking for it by googling Do you have a link?

What I have found after a brief exploration via google/bing:

“We will not be retaining the level 20 cap. [from GW1] We will announce the exact nature and level of the Guild Wars 2 level cap early next year but let me state that our philosophy of allowing players to play the game without grinding their life away is something that is unchanged from Guild Wars 1.” – Lead designer Eric Flannum

You can see here that implication; they are connecting “an unchanged philosophy from GW1” to answering a question about the level cap. In GW2, there was a hard cap of 20. A reasonable inference is that that philosophy (of a hard cap) would continue on in GW2.

Hear, hear! I, for one, am never going to bother going for ascended gear – I just don’t want that pressure in my gaming environment. A short walk to being maxed out is fine – leveling to 80 was almost completely free of frustrations in gw2. But I’m really, really not looking forward to level cap increases if those imply that we’ll all have to scramble for level 85 gear. And if all other ascended items are straight-up improvements over exotics… what the hell do they expect casual players to do do be competitive?

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

tkalamba.2541:

Reaver.9256:

mulch.2586:

So… did anyone from ArenaNet ever actually say there would be a stat cap?

No, they have said the exact opposite. They have planned higher levels and expansions from day one. With those come stats raises.

Not to mention this was actually stated in 2011, which people who claim they followed the development of this game seem to have missed.

I’d like to read that. I’ve been looking for it by googling Do you have a link?

What I have found after a brief exploration via google/bing:

“We will not be retaining the level 20 cap. [from GW1] We will announce the exact nature and level of the Guild Wars 2 level cap early next year but let me state that our philosophy of allowing players to play the game without grinding their life away is something that is unchanged from Guild Wars 1.” – Lead designer Eric Flannum

You can see here that implication; they are connecting “an unchanged philosophy from GW1” to answering a question about the level cap. In GW2, there was a hard cap of 20. A reasonable inference is that that philosophy would continue on in GW2.

Best I can do is this forum thread from back in June that directly quotes the interviews where the level cap issue was stated. (There’s a poll at the top of the page, scroll down to the posts to see the quotes.)

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/40868-should-level-cap-rise-with-future-expansions/

There are supposed to be links in the thread, but the way the post is, it cuts out most of the actual URL so they don’t work, but they all link to specific instances where someone from ANET stated that at expansion release, caps can go up or just about expansions in general (which may I add will apparently require an original copy of the game vs. being standalone)

You can probably get the URL’s to work by copy and pasting them into google and digging them out from live sites from there.

I got the first link concerning expansion plans already

http://www.gamezone.com/products/guild-wars-2/news/guild-wars-2-already-has-expansion-content-for-years-to-come

Note that some of these quotes specifically mention progression, and these are all from pre-release

Cayafas.8290:

Hear, hear! I, for one, am never going to bother going for ascended gear – I just don’t want that pressure in my gaming environment. A short walk to being maxed out is fine – leveling to 80 was almost completely free of frustrations in gw2. But I’m really, really not looking forward to level cap increases if those imply that we’ll all have to scramble for level 85 gear. And if all other ascended items are straight-up improvements over exotics… what the hell do they expect casual players to do do be competitive?

There are a couple good answers to that.

The first, most relevant, answer is that they designed the game system for GW2 to have very little reliance on gear, and they’ve committed to progressing with a very shallow power curve.

In the same way that a good player can do quite well in lvl 80 content wearing greens and yellows, you’ll be fine going forward in exotics. Only about 1/5 of your stats come from your gear, so seemingly large differences in gear don’t make for large differences in game.

The second answer is, whatever you like to do in GW2, you should be able to do and feel like you’re getting rewarded for it. So going forward, if they raise the level cap or add more ascended gear, you can either choose to get it or not, and if you choose to get it, you’ll find a variety of ways to do it.

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

tkalamba.2541:

Reaver.9256:

mulch.2586:

So… did anyone from ArenaNet ever actually say there would be a stat cap?

No, they have said the exact opposite. They have planned higher levels and expansions from day one. With those come stats raises.

Not to mention this was actually stated in 2011, which people who claim they followed the development of this game seem to have missed.

I’d like to read that. I’ve been looking for it by googling Do you have a link?

What I have found after a brief exploration via google/bing:

“We will not be retaining the level 20 cap. [from GW1] We will announce the exact nature and level of the Guild Wars 2 level cap early next year but let me state that our philosophy of allowing players to play the game without grinding their life away is something that is unchanged from Guild Wars 1.” – Lead designer Eric Flannum

You can see here that implication; they are connecting “an unchanged philosophy from GW1” to answering a question about the level cap. In GW2, there was a hard cap of 20. A reasonable inference is that that philosophy (of a hard cap) would continue on in GW2.

All that quote says to me is that if you don’t want to grind you don’t have to. As far as I see that is the case with gw2 and will continue to be. Exotics are already amazingly easy to get and I’m sure ascended will be to in the near future. Any new stat increases will probably be just as easy to get.

Here’s an interview someone did on guildwars2guru back in September 2011 directly addressing the increase to level cap

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/19473-interview-gw2-qa-cd-projekt-conference/

you’ll have to dig in for the information regarding the level cap

“I’m sure ascended armor will be easy to get in the future”? When the only way to get them now is… paying >50ectos at the very least? No, I highly doubt they will. And “exotics are already amazingly easy to get” doesn’t really fly for all those people who play casually, and for whom ~12g to get the exotic trinkets is a lot of cash already.

@mulch: I’ve no issue with, for example, the level cap increasing by 10 if that just means 10 levels and some traits. That’d be like the current route to 80: a fast and painless road to the top, and then you’re done. But if it means having to go through a new gear grind to get new exotics, then yes, that’s a major issue. The problem is this: Not having to worry about keeping your character “geared up” is something that many players enjoyed. It’s something that many people flocked to gw2 for. There’s plenty other games for endless stat progression.

Pizza doesn’t cost much, buy one every day and they add up.
Play only one character ever, moving forward, you won’t have to grind much for Ascended.
Play one of each profession and you could end up doing nothing but chasing the carrot forever.

But this is neither here nor there. As for people who are saying the Ascended increase is negligible…

Rings only: 0.85% damage over someone in Exotics
Greatsword only: 6.48% damage over someone in Exotics.
Greatsword and rings: 7.19% damage increase over someone in Exotics.

It shouldn’t be too hard to see what the difference becomes when you add up all the gear, and then with infusions on top it gets even higher.

Amonde Daneren.2380:

Pizza doesn’t cost much, buy one every day and they add up.
Play only one character ever, moving forward, you won’t have to grind much for Ascended.
Play one of each profession and you could end up doing nothing but chasing the carrot forever.

But this is neither here nor there. As for people who are saying the Ascended increase is negligible…

Rings only: 0.85% damage over someone in Exotics
Greatsword only: 6.48% damage over someone in Exotics.
Greatsword and rings: 7.19% damage increase over someone in Exotics.

It shouldn’t be too hard to see what the difference becomes when you add up all the gear, and then with infusions on top it gets even higher.

Don’t make up pretend numbers…

Actual numbers, a ring will be less than that. Of course it depends on build and all, but getting all 3 ascended items will be around 1.25% increase in damage if you’re going power-style.

There is no ascended greatsword, and we’ll have to wait and see if/when ascended weapons are added.

For the time being, if you do or if you don’t, doesn’t very much matter.
Using actual number for actual items in game — We’re looking at shaving a second or two off a two-minute boss fight.

mulch.2586:

Amonde Daneren.2380:

Pizza doesn’t cost much, buy one every day and they add up.
Play only one character ever, moving forward, you won’t have to grind much for Ascended.
Play one of each profession and you could end up doing nothing but chasing the carrot forever.

But this is neither here nor there. As for people who are saying the Ascended increase is negligible…

Rings only: 0.85% damage over someone in Exotics
Greatsword only: 6.48% damage over someone in Exotics.
Greatsword and rings: 7.19% damage increase over someone in Exotics.

It shouldn’t be too hard to see what the difference becomes when you add up all the gear, and then with infusions on top it gets even higher.

Don’t make up pretend numbers…

Actual numbers, a ring will be less than that. Of course it depends on build and all, but getting all 3 ascended items will be around 1.25% increase in damage if you’re going power-style.

There is no ascended greatsword, and we’ll have to wait and see if/when ascended weapons are added.

For the time being, if you do or if you don’t, doesn’t very much matter.
Using actual number for actual items in game — We’re looking at shaving a second or two off a two-minute boss fight.

They did accidently increase Legendary weapons to what is presumably the level of their ascended counterparts before correcting it.

The thing is though, we do not know if that is the finalized stats.

tkalamba.2541:

Here’s an interview someone did on guildwars2guru back in September 2011 directly addressing the increase to level cap

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/19473-interview-gw2-qa-cd-projekt-conference/

you’ll have to dig in for the information regarding the level cap

Thanks! You are right – apparently they did mention future “progression” and the potential for raised character levels in expansions as early as September of 2011.

Raising of the level cap is a scary idea. If they raised the cap to 99 tomorrow wouldn’t they have to release level 99 gear (with accordingly bigger stats) to go with it? So everything, absolutely everything we have right now would become completely obsolete. May this never come to pass.

Why do some people like vertical progression? IMHO, it’s because they are hard-core players who know they will get the best weapons/armor sooner that most, and will be able to grief the “casuals” who haven’t. Catering to this crowd is catering to the worst in the community.

Stora Ge.9207:

Why do some people like vertical progression? IMHO, it’s because they are hard-core players who know they will get the best weapons/armor sooner that most, and will be able to grief the “casuals” who haven’t. Catering to this crowd is catering to the worst in the community.

I don’t think it’s about that at all. Certainly not in a game like GW2 where gear stats are so minor.

Even way back in paper-pencil RPGs, there’s a common element of progression. Your character increases in ability as you accomplish various adventures.

Even in real life, our soldiers like to progress in rank, and not just cuz of the women.

mulch.2586:

Amonde Daneren.2380:

Pizza doesn’t cost much, buy one every day and they add up.
Play only one character ever, moving forward, you won’t have to grind much for Ascended.
Play one of each profession and you could end up doing nothing but chasing the carrot forever.

But this is neither here nor there. As for people who are saying the Ascended increase is negligible…

Rings only: 0.85% damage over someone in Exotics
Greatsword only: 6.48% damage over someone in Exotics.
Greatsword and rings: 7.19% damage increase over someone in Exotics.

It shouldn’t be too hard to see what the difference becomes when you add up all the gear, and then with infusions on top it gets even higher.

Don’t make up pretend numbers…

Actual numbers, a ring will be less than that. Of course it depends on build and all, but getting all 3 ascended items will be around 1.25% increase in damage if you’re going power-style.

There is no ascended greatsword, and we’ll have to wait and see if/when ascended weapons are added.

For the time being, if you do or if you don’t, doesn’t very much matter.
Using actual number for actual items in game — We’re looking at shaving a second or two off a two-minute boss fight.

Ha, I love this kind of kitten. Take two characters, give them base stats, add the stats from rings and the greatsword they accidentally released, then run the damage formula (you can find it on the wiki). Ascended versus Exotic. My numbers will come up.

Whether it’s +5 power or +15 power is not the issue, the question is how much damage that translates to, versus someone in exotics.

Amonde Daneren.2380:

mulch.2586:

Amonde Daneren.2380:

Pizza doesn’t cost much, buy one every day and they add up.
Play only one character ever, moving forward, you won’t have to grind much for Ascended.
Play one of each profession and you could end up doing nothing but chasing the carrot forever.

But this is neither here nor there. As for people who are saying the Ascended increase is negligible…

Rings only: 0.85% damage over someone in Exotics
Greatsword only: 6.48% damage over someone in Exotics.
Greatsword and rings: 7.19% damage increase over someone in Exotics.

It shouldn’t be too hard to see what the difference becomes when you add up all the gear, and then with infusions on top it gets even higher.

Don’t make up pretend numbers…

Actual numbers, a ring will be less than that. Of course it depends on build and all, but getting all 3 ascended items will be around 1.25% increase in damage if you’re going power-style.

There is no ascended greatsword, and we’ll have to wait and see if/when ascended weapons are added.

For the time being, if you do or if you don’t, doesn’t very much matter.
Using actual number for actual items in game — We’re looking at shaving a second or two off a two-minute boss fight.

Ha, I love this kind of kitten. Take two characters, give them base stats, add the stats from rings and the greatsword they accidentally released, then run the damage formula (you can find it on the wiki). Ascended versus Exotic. My numbers will come up.

Whether it’s +5 power or +15 power is not the issue, the question is how much damage that translates to, versus someone in exotics.

I have done it with the rings, and verified in-game as well. What looks like a meaningful bump in stats ends up being almost invisible in the damage from abilities in game. Less than half a percent from a ring. Actual amount varies, cuz of course if you have a completely defensive build +11 power matters more than if you’ve stacked power.

The greatsword or any weapons haven’t been released in the ascended tier yet.

mulch.2586:

I have done it with the rings, and verified in-game as well. What looks like a meaningful bump in stats ends up being almost invisible in the damage from abilities in game. Less than half a percent from a ring. Actual amount varies, cuz of course if you have a completely defensive build +11 power matters more than if you’ve stacked power.

The greatsword or any weapons haven’t been released in the ascended tier yet.

To address your last point, as someone else already mentioned ANET accidentally bumped up Legendaries to the presumed “Ascended Weapon” stats for a short time. Those may not be the final numbers, but we have a solid idea of where they’re going to be.

Once an entire set of Ascended gear is obtainable the stat difference is going to have a larger disparity when increasing to it from Exotics than any other tier to tier jump below it. This on its own is fine (meaning the whole set of Ascended tier, not just what we currently have). The fear is that there will be additional tiers on top of this in the future that will exacerbate the problem (for a relatively decent example look at WoW’s model of increased item-level on the same level-required Epics).

Chamone.6890

Roquen.4523

It was mentioned numerous times during the recent AMA on Reddit that Anet would have preferred to roll out these items from the launch of the game.

Beware of believing this rhetoric.

It’s very easy for them to say “we wanted to do this all along!”, now that they’ve introduced it 3 months after the game launched.

It may be true, they may have indeed intended to have a gear grind in the game from the very start but lacked the resources and time to get it in. Would the game have attracted the interest of the MMO community and gaming press in general if it had the gear grind from the start? Would so many old GW1 fans have pre-ordered it? I doubt it.

Only one of two things can be the case here:

1: This is a lie, a well-phrased lie intended to deflect some of the fierce criticism the team is getting. They never intended to include a gear treadmill from the start, and in fact the main selling point was horizontal progression. The team may have had a vague idea that they could add more vertical progression in future if enough players demanded it, but it was not part of the original vision of the game.

2: This is the truth. They knew all all along that they would be introducing gear grind at a later stage, and chose to withold this information from us, the people buying their game on pre-order. It is not mentioned anywhere in the manifesto, anywhere in the development blog posts, (which do go into significant detail around Rare and Exotic gear) or any of the interviews that the team gave. If this was indeed the plan all along, they have been extremely good at hiding it.

I don’t believe that 2 is true, I have faith in Anet as a whole, I just can’t see them being so devious as to pull this as a bait-and-switch kind of deal.

I just think they’ve gotten carried away with the whole thing. The game has been far more successful than they had ever dared hope, and now they’re panicking about some of the big numbers.

I imagine that they’ve “lost” over a million players since launch, and that most of those players are citing “no PvE endgame” as the reason they’re quitting. This new gear tier is a measure to stop players who are into “Vertical Progression” from going back to WoW.

A message to Anet:

It won’t work, it can’t work, it has been tried dozens of times before and has always failed. These content locusts will eventually burn themselves out on WoW and find something better to do with their time. That might be GW2, it might not. We don’t care, and nor should you.

The number of people that want to grind for bigger numbers is getting smaller every single day. There are so many more people in the world that just want a decent video game. Pre-November, Guild Wars 2 was exactly that, you just didn’t give them enough time to let them find it.

It doesn’t MATTER if people buy your game, enjoy it, then quit. It DOESN’T. They will be back when you add more content, and they will buy gems. LOTS of gems.

Don’t try to catch the falling knife.

This is an excellent post and good advice in general to businesses facing more success than they were initially prepared for.

Yllnath.2573:

….
Those then stating that they apparently have been conditioned into always needing to have the BiS gear at any given time, I can only say to learn how to deal with that mindset. It will give you much more enjoyment of the game.
I personally feel that Anet made the right choice on Ascended gear, it gives a little something to work towards while not having the huge legendary barrier to demotivate you. At the same time, the bonus is so trivial, that you’ll honestly will not need the stat increases to enjoy all content. (As I’ve stated, you don’t even need Exotics to enjoy all content, I can do level 10 FotM fine in yellows) Honestly, I feel this is something that is good for vertical and horizontal minded players alike, there is still something to keep one kind of player ready, and the horizontal minded players can enjoy the entire game the second they hit 80, since 80 yellows are incredibly easy to acquire.
…

I’m going to play devil’s advocate. What if the top-tier/BiS is very easy to get, but that it can be continually upgraded in small increments via “enchanting?” Let’s suppose that +stat upgrade on a piece of gear is open-ended, but that the cost goes up exponentially as you want to put more and more +stats on it.

This would allow vertical progression that is essentially unlimited, but the cost to increment becomes prohibitive at some point…say the practical limit for most hardcore players is an increase of +5% to stats ([naked + base top-tier stats]*1.05).

What would happen if no one could ever truly max? Ironically, I think this would actually be better than having discrete tiers. The progression would have smaller increments. No one would be driven to get the BiS because there is no “best,” only “better.” I would also reduce elitism with enchanting by making it so that pinging gear only shows base stats.

Hear hear!

ArenaNet released the Manifesto with the tagline that ‘if you hate MMOs, you really want to check out Guild Wars 2’. And what is it that many people who hate about MMOs hate? The endless grind to reach an ever-increasing maximum power level…

There’s also the fact that they’ve clearly gone to a lot of effort to make nice-looking exotic armours – while I’d like to see more choice, it’d be a bit of a waste for them to all become obsolete due to being replaced by ascended sets, which may ultimately lead to an effective reduction of choice in the long run. A set of dungeon armour is a significant investment – I’d prefer that not to be thrown under a bus because it’s been made obsolete by an update.

I’ve seen a few on this thread saying that we’re the minority, but I put forward the question… Are we really so few? Who knows how many untapped potential customers there are who aren’t touching MMOs with a bargepole because they know they won’t be able to tolerate the grind, or who are gritting their teeth and bearing it because they don’t have good alternatives? It’s possible that we’re actually the majority… it’s just that the hard-core grinders are the segment of the potential base that have grown most accustomed to getting what they want and complain the loudest when they don’t get it… and as part of their complaining they claim everyone is the same as they are. Meanwhile, people like us are used to not getting what we want, and so have a tendency to shrug it off and either put up with it… or stay out of the genre.

While mulch does have a valid point that it’s a relatively small difference, the problem is it’s a relatively small difference that has appeared when the game is only three months old. Is 1% over three months going to turn into 4% over a year? 8% in two? 20% in five? How far down is the rabbit hole going to go?

It’s probably accurate to say that if they were in there from the start, people would likely shrug it off… but part of the issue here is the question of whether the carrot is ever going to stop moving.

As soon as they raise the level cap, I’m gone. Yes, I know they will eventually raise it. That just means that I already know that whatever I do here is temporary.

I deleted my creadit card information from the gem store the day they announced gear progression.

mulch.2586:

The greatsword or any weapons haven’t been released in the ascended tier yet.

We already know their stats due to the mistake that caused them to bump up legendaries to increased stats a bit early. They have since then returned those to the exotic levels, but the stats did leak out.

mulch.2586:

Amonde Daneren.2380:

mulch.2586:

Amonde Daneren.2380:

Pizza doesn’t cost much, buy one every day and they add up.
Play only one character ever, moving forward, you won’t have to grind much for Ascended.
Play one of each profession and you could end up doing nothing but chasing the carrot forever.

But this is neither here nor there. As for people who are saying the Ascended increase is negligible…

Rings only: 0.85% damage over someone in Exotics
Greatsword only: 6.48% damage over someone in Exotics.
Greatsword and rings: 7.19% damage increase over someone in Exotics.

It shouldn’t be too hard to see what the difference becomes when you add up all the gear, and then with infusions on top it gets even higher.

Don’t make up pretend numbers…

Actual numbers, a ring will be less than that. Of course it depends on build and all, but getting all 3 ascended items will be around 1.25% increase in damage if you’re going power-style.

There is no ascended greatsword, and we’ll have to wait and see if/when ascended weapons are added.

For the time being, if you do or if you don’t, doesn’t very much matter.
Using actual number for actual items in game — We’re looking at shaving a second or two off a two-minute boss fight.

Ha, I love this kind of kitten. Take two characters, give them base stats, add the stats from rings and the greatsword they accidentally released, then run the damage formula (you can find it on the wiki). Ascended versus Exotic. My numbers will come up.

Whether it’s +5 power or +15 power is not the issue, the question is how much damage that translates to, versus someone in exotics.

I have done it with the rings, and verified in-game as well. What looks like a meaningful bump in stats ends up being almost invisible in the damage from abilities in game. Less than half a percent from a ring. Actual amount varies, cuz of course if you have a completely defensive build +11 power matters more than if you’ve stacked power.

The greatsword or any weapons haven’t been released in the ascended tier yet.

Half a percent from a single item will add up to well over 5% once they’ve introduced all the different ascended armour, weapon and jewellery pieces, which is a significant difference.

Hyde.6189:

mulch.2586:

Amonde Daneren.2380:

mulch.2586:

Amonde Daneren.2380:

Pizza doesn’t cost much, buy one every day and they add up.
Play only one character ever, moving forward, you won’t have to grind much for Ascended.
Play one of each profession and you could end up doing nothing but chasing the carrot forever.

But this is neither here nor there. As for people who are saying the Ascended increase is negligible…

Rings only: 0.85% damage over someone in Exotics
Greatsword only: 6.48% damage over someone in Exotics.
Greatsword and rings: 7.19% damage increase over someone in Exotics.

It shouldn’t be too hard to see what the difference becomes when you add up all the gear, and then with infusions on top it gets even higher.

Don’t make up pretend numbers…

Actual numbers, a ring will be less than that. Of course it depends on build and all, but getting all 3 ascended items will be around 1.25% increase in damage if you’re going power-style.

There is no ascended greatsword, and we’ll have to wait and see if/when ascended weapons are added.

For the time being, if you do or if you don’t, doesn’t very much matter.
Using actual number for actual items in game — We’re looking at shaving a second or two off a two-minute boss fight.

Ha, I love this kind of kitten. Take two characters, give them base stats, add the stats from rings and the greatsword they accidentally released, then run the damage formula (you can find it on the wiki). Ascended versus Exotic. My numbers will come up.

Whether it’s +5 power or +15 power is not the issue, the question is how much damage that translates to, versus someone in exotics.

I have done it with the rings, and verified in-game as well. What looks like a meaningful bump in stats ends up being almost invisible in the damage from abilities in game. Less than half a percent from a ring. Actual amount varies, cuz of course if you have a completely defensive build +11 power matters more than if you’ve stacked power.

The greatsword or any weapons haven’t been released in the ascended tier yet.

Half a percent from a single item will add up to well over 5% once they’ve introduced all the different ascended armour, weapon and jewellery pieces, which is a significant difference.

Don’t forget that only a portion of character’s stats come from gear, a lot comes from traits, skills or the mere fact you’re level 80.

phooka.4295:

As soon as they raise the level cap, I’m gone. Yes, I know they will eventually raise it. That just means that I already know that whatever I do here is temporary.

I deleted my creadit card information from the gem store the day they announced gear progression.

Yep, sadly I don’t think this is a game that I’m going to stick around with in the long term. I have already lost faith in the dev team.

they haven’t even decided what they’re going to do. It’s possible that the moment you’ll enter a new continent you’ll have to reach level 80 from level 1 in there all over again. So in Tyria you would be level 80, in the new continent you would be level 1. I don’t care either way, because if they raise it up to 90, I’m just going to continue playing the game, so what’s the difference? It’s just extra gameplay. In no game do you sit on top of a pot of gold for hours after completing the final level. You get a final cutscene and wait for expansions that will require to once again climb of the pot of gold and do stuff to be powerful. This is the only game where after hours of work you can spend the same amount of hours sitting on a pot of gold thinking “I’m awesome”. I’m all up for new gameplay, whether they will raise the level cap, make you level from level 1 again or anything like that. No need to cry crocodile tears before anything has even happened.

I really don’t understand the big deal. You guys don’t have to do fractals, you can literally do exactly what you were doing before the ascended stuff came out, so what’s the big deal? Let those who want gear progression go and hunt their gear, and you guys just keep running around doing jumping puzzles or whatever. And so what if they raise the level cap. Again you guys will be doing exactly what you were doing before the level cap was raised.

OP and many of the insightful comments in this thread are a fantastic summary of how I feel about the embrace of vertical progression in GW2. Thank you for posting.

Mercucial.6759:

I really don’t understand the big deal. You guys don’t have to do fractals, you can literally do exactly what you were doing before the ascended stuff came out, so what’s the big deal? Let those who want gear progression go and hunt their gear, and you guys just keep running around doing jumping puzzles or whatever. And so what if they raise the level cap. Again you guys will be doing exactly what you were doing before the level cap was raised.

The big deal is that if ANET continues the power creep above and beyond Ascended gear it is no longer a thing that every player can ignore. It will become a thing that needs to be worked toward and those who are not having fun working toward it be kicked by a Kitten and left behind. ANET was very clear that they are not okay with such an outcome. To sum that up, the big deal is ANET said it’s a big deal and we’re waiting to see whether they were telling the truth or not.

Great OP, i agree 100%.

In case the person who was still asking is curious:

29, U.S., totally tired of vertical progression. My first “MMO” was GW1, though.

I really don’t want to see this thread die out so I’ll post my 2c also.

Yes there is vertical progression in most games, GW2 and 1 included. But whether or not the vertical progression has a defined end is one of the defining factors for my enjoyment of a game with a competitive aspect (WvW). I want to reach that final plateau in stats, however long it may take, and know for sure that I will be on an even playing field with every enemy that I might face. Taking that plateau higher every few months makes that impossible without mandatory grind with each update, however shallow the power curve.

WvW is basically dead to me now. At least there is still sPvP.

I’ve read the first and I’ve read some of the last… You can send me a PM if this is already covered somewhere in the mess in between:

(Please read the following with Chris Whiteside’s statement that he is not comfortable with gear-based gating)

I’ve been playing a different MMO that has followed the more traditional progression, and frankly, I despise it. It forces perfectly good content to become obsolete, and puts folks on a quest treadmill that they’d often prefer to skip, in order to get to new content. As has been suggested, there are times you’d like to be able “spring fully formed from the womb,” as it were, and get to the content that you would prefer.

I cut my MMO teeth, however, in GW1. So I do want to remind some folks about what was necessary for progression in GW1: builds. In fact, in order to be included in most runs, one had to have a specific build using skills across all 4 releases. And then, you had to go out, find the critters, kill them, and cap the elite. You might also simply have roll a new character. Perhaps an Ele or a ’Sin if you wanted to do UW.

Both experiences I found less than optimal, myself. I don’t like them because I don’t like “end game” gating, I don’t like obsolete content, I don’t like having the entire PvE community focused on a single run.

When I read “shallow power curve,” I see hope, because I understand it to mean this: “Although there will be small incremental power shifts, these will never be so strong that they are mandatory for content.”

When I read what Chris posted in the AMA (you really should read his posts for yourself, if you can), I see that he is distressed by the results and the fractured community. So I have hope in that aspect as well.

When I read that they haven’t just thrown an LFG functionality out there (which can be a simple system) I have hope that they are going to provide a system where those of us who aren’t going to grind to min/max our characters can find other folks to group with, while not ruining the day of those who are trying to grind/spead clear.

So… For folks that do not like vertical progression, I’m hoping you will bear with the Dev Team. It’s been admitted that Lost Shore was a bad release. Give them a shot to make things right. When the new progression comes out, try the new content without the progression and see if you can handle it. They are trying to shake the world up, a little bit. Let’s help them see if it’s possible.

this is a great thread and hopefully the devs will take it to heart. i’m kind of in a holding pattern just waiting to see what their next move is. i was working toward full exotic on my 3rd 80, but now i’m just hording all my mats until there’s a clear roadmap of what gear i’ll need. At least I can still have fun doing WvW in rares for the time being.

I played enough that I got about 190 levels across multiple characters since pre-launch, until Lost Shores. While I was dividing my time, I had no problem with that since I would eventually reach max level and max rated gear with each of my characters. I was in no hurry. I could enjoy content and work incrementally towards my goals in PVE and explore the world. Sure I logged in about 3 or 4 times per week, but I was consistent and occasionally buying gems at the gem store. I was a good customer.

Since Lost Shores ended and the release of ascended gear, I’ve logged in once.

ONCE.

Why is that?

Because now, I realize that I’ll be working towards a target that is moving away from me faster than I could ever progress. I’ve realized that with my play style, I will NEVER get to that upper tier.

So why bother getting on that treadmill?

I was a good customer. I bought gems at the gem store to help out my multiple alts keep up. But I won’t do that again, the investments of hard real world currency and time are only offering a diminishing return. Anyways, NCSoft / Arenanet are losing money from me, and I hope they notice.

Baron of Winters.5697:

I played enough that I got about 190 levels across multiple characters since pre-launch, until Lost Shores. While I was dividing my time, I had no problem with that since I would eventually reach max level and max rated gear with each of my characters. I was in no hurry. I could enjoy content and work incrementally towards my goals in PVE and explore the world. Sure I logged in about 3 or 4 times per week, but I was consistent and occasionally buying gems at the gem store. I was a good customer.

Since Lost Shores ended and the release of ascended gear, I’ve logged in once.

ONCE.

Why is that?

Because now, I realize that I’ll be working towards a target that is moving away from me faster than I could ever progress. I’ve realized that with my play style, I will NEVER get to that upper tier.

So why bother getting on that treadmill?

I was a good customer. I bought gems at the gem store to help out my multiple alts keep up. But I won’t do that again, the investments of hard real world currency and time are only offering a diminishing return. Anyways, NCSoft / Arenanet are losing money from me, and I hope they notice.

Sums up my experience almost exactly. 3 logins since Nov 16, to check in with what remains of the guild I led to the game. I was as happy with the game before the grind induction patch as I was the day it was released. Couldn’t have been more of a 180. Dat treadmill…

Nice read. I quit the game as soon as I saw them injecting vertical progression. I decided it wasn’t for me and went back to Skyrim. I am not really tired of the MMORPG genre but there isn’t anything out there similar to GW1. I prefer horizontal progression simply because it is more fun and less stressful and a much better design.

I haven’t logged in for like 3 weeks now I suppose and have no intention or desire on coming back because ANET made it clear what their intentions are. Also, the way the economy is going I kinda doubt we will see anything spectacular for quite a while but Skyrim is such a massive game maybe that will cover my entertainment for some time as they seem to be putting out a lot of exciting new expansions.

The extremely well written original post deserves publicity.
I share the same feelings and opinion.

I’m really looking forward to see the 3A MMOG with no stat progression.

Reaver.9256:

Not one of my friends and I played gw1 for over a month because there wasn’t a thing to do after you hit 20 and got a few skills.

Reaver, I don’t understand this. Most of the game happened after you hit 20, especially in Factions, where you could hit 20 in a weekend (or a long weekend, if you needed sleep). I’m not being argumentative here; it would be silly for me to disagree with an experience you had. I genuinely don’t understand and am curious. Can you tell me what it was you were looking to do that was lacking?

Sorry, I know this is a bit off-topic, but that statement leapt out at me and really got me curious.

Well articulated and thought provoking post. I recommend anyone who enjoyed this post to check out the online show, Extra Credits on pennyarcade. A particularly relevant episode to this thread is called “The Skinner Box.”
Those who mentioned the actual math are my heroes. It is something that took me awhile to realize when I started playing FFXI back in 2004. The traditional MMO has what most refer to as ‘Endgame’. I think this boils down to simply achieving level cap. You’ve hit level XX and now can equip level XX gear and do level XX content. Ideally there is nothing in the game you are restricted from. Whether you can succeed or not is another story and apart from what I’m suggesting. Typically after experiencing what this endgame has to offer, you’ve pretty much attained what I call a ‘Natural stat cap". The point where even if you don’t have the best equipment in existence, when you step back and really compare, the difference is laughably negligible. The perceived disparity in the power of players is not because of the numbers on their Underwear of the Godly Wolf Hunter, but because they understand a fundamental strategy of the game mechanics.
So the real issue, and the reason it is such a difficult task for a developer to please the community, is not the game itself, but how we perceive it. The way we are seeing the game, and what is actually going on are at odds. Once again I’ll refer to an Extra Credits episode called, “The aesthetics of play.” This episode basically explains the core aesthetics that are the foundation for why we enjoy a particular game, and how we distinguish different games.
Steering a little closer to the main topic, I think GW2 delivers in both camps for this issue. When you equip that level 80 armor, you’ve pretty much hit that ‘Natural stat cap’. Doing the math, is Exotic gear going to allow you to steam roll something you can’t beat now? Nope. However, the experience you gain obtaining that Exotic gear is what will give you the power required to beat that content. As you can probably guess, because it was a gradual process, this creates a false association in our minds that the gear is why we succeeded. In fact it was because of the greater knowledge-base and understanding of the game itself. So the horizontals should be satisfied that they don’t need to get better gear and run the treadmill. I think the vertical camp should satisfied as well. There are exotics, legendary, and now ascended to go for. Anet will only add more content. This will please the verticals more than horizontals, but that won’t change the fact that it will still be simple to hit that ‘Natural stat cap’ with minimal effort. Anet has made it clear that they are trying to avoid introducing gear ‘better’ than what already exists, but rather new mechanics that require a different approach to how we equip ourselves.
I’d like to mention that these are just my own opinions on the analysis of observations and past experiences in games, I only wish to provide different avenues of thought to explore. Check out Extra Credits. It really is an eye opening show on the game industry and important issues revolving around games as a whole. If you made it this far, thanks for reading!

Sujuro.4096:

Well articulated and thought provoking post. I recommend anyone who enjoyed this post to check out the online show, Extra Credits on pennyarcade. A particularly relevant episode to this thread is called “The Skinner Box.”
Those who mentioned the actual math are my heroes. It is something that took me awhile to realize when I started playing FFXI back in 2004. The traditional MMO has what most refer to as ‘Endgame’. I think this boils down to simply achieving level cap. You’ve hit level XX and now can equip level XX gear and do level XX content. Ideally there is nothing in the game you are restricted from. Whether you can succeed or not is another story and apart from what I’m suggesting. Typically after experiencing what this endgame has to offer, you’ve pretty much attained what I call a ‘Natural stat cap". The point where even if you don’t have the best equipment in existence, when you step back and really compare, the difference is laughably negligible. The perceived disparity in the power of players is not because of the numbers on their Underwear of the Godly Wolf Hunter, but because they understand a fundamental strategy of the game mechanics.
So the real issue, and the reason it is such a difficult task for a developer to please the community, is not the game itself, but how we perceive it. The way we are seeing the game, and what is actually going on are at odds. Once again I’ll refer to an Extra Credits episode called, “The aesthetics of play.” This episode basically explains the core aesthetics that are the foundation for why we enjoy a particular game, and how we distinguish different games.
Steering a little closer to the main topic, I think GW2 delivers in both camps for this issue. When you equip that level 80 armor, you’ve pretty much hit that ‘Natural stat cap’. Doing the math, is Exotic gear going to allow you to steam roll something you can’t beat now? Nope. However, the experience you gain obtaining that Exotic gear is what will give you the power required to beat that content. As you can probably guess, because it was a gradual process, this creates a false association in our minds that the gear is why we succeeded. In fact it was because of the greater knowledge-base and understanding of the game itself. So the horizontals should be satisfied that they don’t need to get better gear and run the treadmill. I think the vertical camp should satisfied as well. There are exotics, legendary, and now ascended to go for. Anet will only add more content. This will please the verticals more than horizontals, but that won’t change the fact that it will still be simple to hit that ‘Natural stat cap’ with minimal effort. Anet has made it clear that they are trying to avoid introducing gear ‘better’ than what already exists, but rather new mechanics that require a different approach to how we equip ourselves.
I’d like to mention that these are just my own opinions on the analysis of observations and past experiences in games, I only wish to provide different avenues of thought to explore. Check out Extra Credits. It really is an eye opening show on the game industry and important issues revolving around games as a whole. If you made it this far, thanks for reading!

Check out the extra credits episode about power creep, and then maybe you will understand why they are in fact mutually exclusive.

Stora Ge.9207:

Why do some people like vertical progression? IMHO, it’s because they are hard-core players who know they will get the best weapons/armor sooner that most, and will be able to grief the “casuals” who haven’t. Catering to this crowd is catering to the worst in the community.

This is an incredibly biased statement. I can only assume that you have played a previous game and had bad experiences, or that you have no background at all and are just repeating what others have told you.

I enjoy vertical progression myself – I want to always see my character improving, having something to strive for to make my character better. If character progression completely stops, I have no interest in a game. This includes both multiplayer AND singleplayer games.

For people who ONLY enjoy horizontal progression, do you also go through life with no goals? Do you not strive to get that bigger paycheck? To improve your living situation? Your relationship status?

Life is vertical progression.

Ahlen.7591:

This is an incredibly biased statement. I can only assume that you have played a previous game and had bad experiences, or that you have no background at all and are just repeating what others have told you.

I enjoy vertical progression myself – I want to always see my character improving, having something to strive for to make my character better.

Agreed. People who like vertical progression are legitimate players too. No need to denigrate their preferred playstyle. Most of them aren’t driven by the need to be better than anyone else. They do it because they like setting up goals for themselves, then working to achieve them.

For people who ONLY enjoy horizontal progression, do you also go through life with no goals? Do you not strive to get that bigger paycheck? To improve your living situation? Your relationship status?

Life is vertical progression.

Whoa, now you’ve completely flipped the denigration the other way. Life is most definitely not just vertical progression. Do you enjoy walks on the beach? Watching movies? Going to the amusement park? Playing catch with your kids? Sitting around and shooting the breeze with your friends?

None of these advance you in any way. But most would argue they’re the whole point of living. The vertical progression you seem to imply is the purpose of life is, for most people, merely a necessary evil you have to suffer through in order to gather the resources and free time to do the things you truly enjoy.

If you haven’t read Bartle’s paper on MUD player types, please do so.
http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm

Achievers are the people interested in vertical progression. If they can’t advance their characters, there’s no point playing the game. But they’re just one type of player. And by no means is their playstyle essential to any game.

Unfortunately for us non-achievers, pretty much every MMORPG out there has turned into achiever games. It’s understandable – online games live and die by keeping players returning. And the achievement treadmill has an addictive quality which keeps people playing even if they’re bored or frustrated with the game. It makes life easy for the developer. Get the players hooked and it doesn’t really matter if you screw up some of the mechanics or balance, how un-fun a quest or encounter is, or how much they hate you for what you’re doing to screw up “their” game. They’ll keep playing because they have to hear that next ding, have to get that next piece of loot, have to kill the next boss. Even if they want to quit, they can’t because they can’t bring themselves to “give up” everything they’ve achieved so far in the game.

I’m an explorer type myself – I get my fun from seeing the world, experiencing the different encounters, figuring out how stuff works. Leveling and acquiring better gear is merely a necessary evil towards this end. It’s the reason I was so drawn to the original Guild Wars. I’d tried and quit several other MMORPGs because the level grind simply became too much. I hated how much time I was wasting on leveling and gearing, but without levels and top-end gear I was unable to explore and discover large portions of the game. Then came GW and I could hit the level cap in a few weeks, and my gear didn’t really matter. After a few weeks I was free to explore as much as I wanted, anywhere I wanted. And the different skills meant I could explore the same area over and over with different skills trying to figure out which combo worked best for a specific area or encounter. I was in nirvana.

That’s largely the reason I bought GW2 – the promise that I wouldn’t have to run the achievement treadmill in order to get my enjoyment from the game. That and the fact that time constraints in RL have forced me to become a casual gamer. I can’t play 8 hours a day like I did when I was in school. I have a job and other responsibilities which take my time. Usually I’m lucky if I can play a couple hours in a night. If the game’s level/gear curve is balanced to be challenging for those playing 8 hours a day, then it’s completely hopeless for me. Why should I even bother playing?

GW/GW2 was supposed to be the solution to this – the game for the casual player. If they’re going to turn it into a game which caters primarily to achievers, I’m out of here (well, I’ll probably explore 100% of the map first since I already bought the game). I’ll most likely end up in some private server for some free game, where I can easily max out my levels and gear with minimal fuss. That way I can get busy exploring the world the artists have made, figuring out the mechanics the devs toiled over to get just right.

Take a look at this thread guys:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Solving-the-issue-of-vertical-progression/first#post993697