Guild Wars 2

Hi, this is a big question for me personally, and I hope it gets picked.

One of my biggest gripes I have about Guild Wars 2 is the lack of low-level dungeon content. I do not count Personal Story instances as good dungeon content.

Ensio summarizes what I’m talking about very well:

Ensio.8172:

The OP is looking at things from the perspective of people who are completely new to the game, and quickly find out that it isn’t their cup of tea, especially if coming from WoW-style MMOs.

And it’s not hard to see why that is if you’ve played WoW or others similar to it in structure. Adding more simpler, streamlined low and mid level dungeons wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing, if you make clear that they are meant as learning experiences, tutorials. They could grant a decent amount of experience as well, so new players would be drawn to them.

PvE players tend to like dungeons, and want to level up in them.

My pitch:
I would have liked to offer my friends a challenge that would take what they’ve learnt so far (during the same first session of play) and say that at level 15 they’d get <insert thing here>, but it’s not going to be all that easy. We’ll be able to use many if not all combo-fields and finishers as they are part of the dungeon itself (because several classes lacks combo finishers/fields), dodge rotating bars (like the Aetherblade boss) and for the first time (for real now) try our best to make sure we stay alive by supporting each other through skills and reviving.

It’s going to be linear (some familiarity to other MMOs is not a bad thing) and it allows me and my friend(s) to effectively test themselves during the same evening of play, and get some good loot for our levelling once we finish it. I’d see this low level dungeon rather as a ‘game pitch’, that tries to squeeze out every last bit of cool gameplay it has to offer in an accessible and fun way. It would be repeatable, and have some sort of side-goal that encourages you to improve yourself the next time you try it out.

It would also congeal many new players to one place as well, forming groups and possibly friendships. And for experienced players making alts would also come here (the XP and gear rewards are good enough incentive) that they’d join groups with inexperienced players, maybe teaching them a thing or two.

Thematically it could be an asuran or charr training facility gone rogue, meaning there’s lots of spinning, whirring equipment. Jump-pads, malfunctional test dummies, veteran trainers barking out orders/tips and so on. Of course I’d rather have something that plays better into lore though, but that’s for someone else to think of.

P.S. I think it would be wise of the devs to take notes from the (in my opinion) success of Tower of Nightmares when it comes to encouraging grouping, as well.

To explain:
It’s one of the best way to play together with friends at the early levels, as it lets you focus toward a common goal that is very rewarding for your current level.

In my opinion, I think a non-scaled dungeon (note: not really balanced for lvl 20 and up) that is balanced around the smaller set of skills and more emphasis on learning new players how to dodge and use the combo system. Something that is repeatable (dungeoneers ideally would like to level through dungeons alone) and gives a noticeable reward (exotics or rare for low-levels).

Speaking from personal experience, I’ve tried to play this game with friends. All of which have fallen out of it. It feels like the PvE content does not have any good hooks for anyone below level 30, and unless they’re the immersive/explorative/completionist type, they’ll not find anything fun to do during the early levels. Savvy people likes to set aim for gear they’d want early on, and use that as motivation to keep playing so they can earn that gear. But there aren’t any!

And even then, I’ve had horrible experiences with my real-life friends playing AC, as they aren’t as aware of dodging and the combo system. Because why would they? They’ve haven’t needed it while roaming around the open world as warriors/guardians/hunters.

I’d like to see content that lets me show new players what the combat is, what its potential is, and how group-play in this non-trinity game actually works.
I want a reason for forming a party with strangers very early on, creating a hot-spot for the newcomers and experienced alike to learn and teach.

And to speak like a heathen, one particular friend from my time playing that-other-mmo-that-shall-not-be-named (edit: World of Warcraft) expected there to be low-level dungeons. And I agreed. He stopped playing as well.

What is your opinion, community?

You were careful not to name the beast, but in WoW most PvE minded players have always done their leveling up in dungeons, so much so that they run the same instance over and over and over again until they’ve leveled up enough to gain access to the next dungeon in line.

I’d be willing to bet that the lack of “easy and simple”, WoW style linear corridor run type dungeons at both low and mid level is keeping quite a few players away from the game.

Those who’ve played WoW know that ‘Deadmines’ or ‘Ragefire Chasm’ are quite different from ‘Ascalonian Catacombs’.

I think its kinda pointless without having your full range of skills or any traits to be having dungeons below level 30… it takes hardly any time or effort to get to level 35 (maybe a week?) for AC and a few runs thru you’re leveled up for a different dungeon… and if they haven’t found out about dodging and combos from looking thru the command list at keys or actually reading their skills then its a good time to learn because while everything in the game is easy you really make it a lot harder on yourself not using those mechanics just because you don’t need em for the first 20 levels or so and I doubt you’d get any better rewards in a super low level dungeon like that then you would in open world pve so forgive me if it seems a bit pointless.

The dungeons is supposed to be the “elite” content of the game.
And they are not available until lvl 30+ simply because they need people to have a clue before they enter, which is much more likely at lvl 30 than at lvl 10.

Exotics do not drop until lvl 60+ and thus they can’t really drop in low-level dungeons.

The fact that you state in your post that you had a horrible experience with AC due to lack of knowledge from your fellow players would suggest that making dungeons even lower would be incredibly stupid, even if they were to focus on learning people to dodge (however you would do that if they failed to understand it while playing the game earlier), it would not really end well anyway.

Elite content? Ha! No… then they would all have been for lv80. This guy has a great idea. A low level learning dungeon. With easy to dodge attacks, but you should dodge or you die. Some jumping fun etc. Awesome idea.

You don’t have to be lv30+ at all. A Mesmer gets “viable” at 40+ so should now every dungeon be 40+? Oh wait engineer has to wait till 60 if he wants to use grenades. Are there any heavy traits combinations? Lets make all the dungeons 80!!

No this is not how it works. That’s why he said easy dungeon for low players to learn stuff. And the idea is great since you get punished like a little girl if you do the first time a normal dungeon especially if you are the recommended level.

like+1

There are a few mini-dungeons out in the world for levels below 30:

• Flame Temple Tombs
• Provernic Crypt
• Goff’s Bandits
• Beggar’s Burrow
• Don’t Touch The Shiny
• Tears of Itlaocol
• Old Oola Lab
• Verarium Delves
• Windy Cave

Firstly, just FYI, you are allowed to name other games in this forum. If you’re thinking of a specific example it’s a good idea to say which game it’s in because then people who know it will know what you mean and people who don’t can look it up.

Secondly I think the intention was that you use open-world PvE to level up and learn both your profession and the game in general and then dungeons are…not quite ‘end game’ but part of the harder content you move onto once you’ve done that.

Magnus Steelgrave.6580:

I think its kinda pointless without having your full range of skills or any traits to be having dungeons below level 30… it takes hardly any time or effort to get to level 35 (maybe a week?) for AC and a few runs thru you’re leveled up for a different dungeon… and if they haven’t found out about dodging and combos from looking thru the command list at keys or actually reading their skills then its a good time to learn because while everything in the game is easy you really make it a lot harder on yourself not using those mechanics just because you don’t need em for the first 20 levels or so and I doubt you’d get any better rewards in a super low level dungeon like that then you would in open world pve so forgive me if it seems a bit pointless.

The thing is that my friends don’t even give this game a week. I’m a 25-year old with friends around the same age, and giving a week of playtime is often not even close to possible. They’d need to feel interested within the first co-played session, and feel that there’s more to it after that first session.

And they know about dodging, but as it goes AC has much, much harder hitting enemies. If you can’t read the timing of the enemies (it’s a bit too early to know the tells, especially with all the particle effects cluttering the screen), can you blame people for not using dodge very well?

lordkrall.7241:

The dungeons is supposed to be the “elite” content of the game.
And they are not available until lvl 30+ simply because they need people to have a clue before they enter, which is much more likely at lvl 30 than at lvl 10.

Exotics do not drop until lvl 60+ and thus they can’t really drop in low-level dungeons.

The fact that you state in your post that you had a horrible experience with AC due to lack of knowledge from your fellow players would suggest that making dungeons even lower would be incredibly stupid, even if they were to focus on learning people to dodge (however you would do that if they failed to understand it while playing the game earlier), it would not really end well anyway.

I’m not proposing that this dungeon is part of the regular rotation of dungeons. Ideally they would probably not even give rewards worthy anyone’s time unless they’re at the appropriate level. A low level dungeon is not ‘elite content’, just as much as a Personal Story instance isn’t. Think of it as a Personal Story instance that is balanced around group play, learning new players the mechanics, showing non-trinity players how to work together and rewarding people with good gear while they level.

And the biggest thing I have not mentioned yet, is that for all intents and purposes, Guild Wars 2 is a single-player game up to level 30. There’s no incentive to think that “There are other players around me, and we all want to do this. Group?”.

You roam around, ticking of check-boxes (PoI, Vistas etc) and you don’t need to group for any event. You got check-boxes to take care of, right? They got them too, so lets just split ways here.

On that tangent, let me just say that The Nightmare Tower was an EXCELLENT example of how you’d want to encourage group play. I’m going to be honest, but I’m older and less sociable than I was playing WoW. During that patch I made tons of groups, adding lots to my friendslist and having more social interaction than any guild I’ve been in. Tear that apart as you wish, but that’s just how that sort of group content got me more invested.

You were suggesting Exotic gear for low-level content, which doesn’t really work without remaking Exotic tier, since it doesn’t exist until lvl 62.
Personal Story is a solo-able story to show you the world, nowhere has it ever been advertised as any form of elite content. While dungeons on the other hand was advertised as such before release.

If player haven’t learned by lvl 30 about dodging and stuff I doubt they would learn from a lower-level dungeon.

That is one of the things with GW2 though.
You don’t need to actively group up in order to do stuff together. Since there are no kill-stealing people can all work together without formally grouping up.
Which happens more or less constantly in the more popular event chains.

TheDaiBish.9735:

There are a few mini-dungeons out in the world for levels below 30:

• Flame Temple Tombs
• Provernic Crypt
• Goff’s Bandits
• Beggar’s Burrow
• Don’t Touch The Shiny
• Tears of Itlaocol
• Old Oola Lab
• Verarium Delves
• Windy Cave

Thanks. However, don’t you think its odd that you’d probably have to look at a wiki using the right search-word to know there are mini-dungeons in this game?

I’m very happy that they exist and aren’t advertised (joy of exploriation, and I’m an explorer-type player myself), but they might as well not exist for newcomers to the game. And for those savvy min-maxing players, I’m also going to bet that their rewards are sub-par/not enough and thus, not really interesting to them while levelling.

I think a dungeon that is properly advertised at early levels have a much, much better chance of forming groups of players that might stick together while they level.

A wiki certainly helps but they are mostly found by talking to NPCs. If you go through an area as fast as you can you will not find these, so the wiki is the best option, if you look around and ask questions you can find them without the wiki. It is all up to playstyle.

Andrige.5609:

TheDaiBish.9735:

There are a few mini-dungeons out in the world for levels below 30:

• Flame Temple Tombs
• Provernic Crypt
• Goff’s Bandits
• Beggar’s Burrow
• Don’t Touch The Shiny
• Tears of Itlaocol
• Old Oola Lab
• Verarium Delves
• Windy Cave

Thanks. However, don’t you think its odd that you’d probably have to look at a wiki using the right search-word to know there are mini-dungeons in this game?

I’m very happy that they exist and aren’t advertised (joy of exploriation, and I’m an explorer-type player myself), but they might as well not exist for newcomers to the game. And for those savvy min-maxing players, I’m also going to bet that their rewards are sub-par/not enough and thus, not really interesting to them while levelling.

I think a dungeon that is properly advertised at early levels have a much, much better chance of forming groups of players that might stick together while they level.

If someone WANTS to learn to dodge, he can also do that in open world. Go to a mob of your choice, try to kill it without getting hit once. Feeling good? Try killing it in melee-range without getting hit once. Done? Go to a more difficult mob, try the same. Why would you need a dungeon for that? Especially given the fact that if you fail to dodge in the dungeon and are instantly dead like someone proposed here, it would become very frustrating over time. In open world, that problem doesn’t exist unless you really overestimate your skill.

Also, no group content below lvl 30? Ever tried solo-ing the Krait witch in Caledon Forest? I’ve found myself or others asking for assistance in map chat more than once before. Same counts for other bosses and/or events. Of course that’s not a fixed party like in a dungeon… but if you want to do that together with friends, nothing stops you. You don’t need a dungeon to form a party with friends.

That’s basically because lvl 1-30 is the “getting used to the game” stage. You unlock weapons skills, 2nd weapon set, slot skills, start with traits, and at magical level 30 your last ulitity slot (elite) becomes unlocked and usable.

Before that it would be like sending a first day recruit to the front line.

Saturn.6591:

If someone WANTS to learn to dodge, he can also do that in open world. Go to a mob of your choice, try to kill it without getting hit once. Feeling good? Try killing it in melee-range without getting hit once. Done? Go to a more difficult mob, try the same. Why would you need a dungeon for that? Especially given the fact that if you fail to dodge in the dungeon and are instantly dead like someone proposed here, it would become very frustrating over time. In open world, that problem doesn’t exist unless you really overestimate your skill.

Also, no group content below lvl 30? Ever tried solo-ing the Krait witch in Caledon Forest? I’ve found myself or others asking for assistance in map chat more than once before. Same counts for other bosses and/or events. Of course that’s not a fixed party like in a dungeon… but if you want to do that together with friends, nothing stops you. You don’t need a dungeon to form a party with friends.

So when I’m playing together with someone, trying to show how exciting this game can be, I’ll ask them to go up to that moose over there and avoid its attacks?

Or we’ll go up to a champion enemy and try to defeat it, but how long would that fun last? Or even, how feasible is that to do with only two people, one or both being a complete newcomer?

Everything you say is true, but it’s not the most fun or rewarding option for this sort of player I’m talking about. And most certainly doesn’t make for the best impression of GW2’s PvE content.

Andrige.5609:

Saturn.6591:

If someone WANTS to learn to dodge, he can also do that in open world. Go to a mob of your choice, try to kill it without getting hit once. Feeling good? Try killing it in melee-range without getting hit once. Done? Go to a more difficult mob, try the same. Why would you need a dungeon for that? Especially given the fact that if you fail to dodge in the dungeon and are instantly dead like someone proposed here, it would become very frustrating over time. In open world, that problem doesn’t exist unless you really overestimate your skill.

Also, no group content below lvl 30? Ever tried solo-ing the Krait witch in Caledon Forest? I’ve found myself or others asking for assistance in map chat more than once before. Same counts for other bosses and/or events. Of course that’s not a fixed party like in a dungeon… but if you want to do that together with friends, nothing stops you. You don’t need a dungeon to form a party with friends.

So when I’m playing together with someone, trying to show how exciting this game can be, I’ll ask them to go up to that moose over there and avoid its attacks?

Or we’ll go up to a champion enemy and try to defeat it, but how long would that fun last? Or even, how feasible is that to do with only two people, one or both being a complete newcomer?

Everything you say is true, but it’s not the most fun or rewarding option for this sort of player I’m talking about. And most certainly doesn’t make for the best impression of GW2’s PvE content.

Tag the moose and try to live without moving. It is a learning experience. People come on the forums all the time complaining they are lvl 20 and get flattened by lvl 5 mobs. They do not take into account down-leveling and did not learn as they went to 20.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

That’s basically because lvl 1-30 is the “getting used to the game” stage. You unlock weapons skills, 2nd weapon set, slot skills, start with traits, and at magical level 30 your last ulitity slot (elite) becomes unlocked and usable.

Before that it would be like sending a first day recruit to the front line.

I might not have explained this well enough in the OP, but my friends are not those with time to spare to go from level 1-30, just to see that there’s dungeon content. That could take weeks.

Anyway, I’ve made all the points I wanted to make regarding my opinion. People are dissecting part of what I want to talk about rather than the big topic, so I’ll bow out. I’ll update the OP to clarify if need be.

So thanks for the discussion, but now I have some christmas presents to collect!

Andrige.5609:

I might not have explained this well enough in the OP, but my friends are not those with time to spare to go from level 1-30, just to see that there’s dungeon content. That could take weeks.

So what you basically want is getting good rewards without having to bother playing and/or learning the game?

The OP is looking at things from the perspective of people who are completely new to the game, and quickly find out that it isn’t their cup of tea, especially if coming from WoW-style MMOs.

And it’s not hard to see why that is if you’ve played WoW or others similar to it in structure. Adding more simpler, streamlined low and mid level dungeons wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing, if you make clear that they are meant as learning experiences, tutorials. They could grant a decent amount of experience as well, so new players would be drawn to them.

PvE players tend to like dungeons, and want to level up in them.

Andrige.5609:

ZeftheWicked.3076:

That’s basically because lvl 1-30 is the “getting used to the game” stage. You unlock weapons skills, 2nd weapon set, slot skills, start with traits, and at magical level 30 your last ulitity slot (elite) becomes unlocked and usable.

Before that it would be like sending a first day recruit to the front line.

I might not have explained this well enough in the OP, but my friends are not those with time to spare to go from level 1-30, just to see that there’s dungeon content. That could take weeks.

So I guess your friends are like “I want everything now, and I don’t have the patience to wait a little bit longer to get to it”.

Show them some nice event chains. Point them towards the personal story. Show them some nice jumping puzzles. Kill some champions. Show them some places with nice scenery (which is almost everywhere actually, if you mind taking a closer look). Show them NPC’s with funny dialogues, and/or funny events. Seriously; dungeons aren’t that different from open world to make them necessary to be able to decide if you like the game or not. If you really want to see the dungeons badly, take your time to level to lvl 30. It’s not like that takes very long.

Also, why is it that your friends need to know if they like dungeons that early? “Show me the dungeons NOW or I’ll not bother playing this game at all!”? “Let me wear exotics and have all traits and skills NOW or I’ll not continue to play!”?

I really don’t get it. Maybe MMORPG’s aren’t the right games for your friends at all. They should try Ego-shooters instead. Oh wait; in some of those you can actually unlock better weapons later in the game. Be sure to avoid those.

Personally i wouldnt mind seeing an easy mode for dungeons with another set of rewards.
TBH dungeons are designed for lvl80 characters and rewarded according.

On the other hand getting lvl80 in GW2 can be accomplished in 2-3 days of moderate playing, a week at most with almost 0 gold investment.

Am I right in thinking that low level characters are scaled up in fractals?

I’d agree that AC explorable should have been an easier dungeon (and as such the tokens shouldn’t barter for exotic items). This would have made a better introduction to the game. However with one revamp of AC done there is probably not going to be another.

GW2 endgame isn’t all dungeons though and you don’t need a close group of friends to run content. Trying to take a close group of friends through dungeons together as the pinnacle of GW2 was always going to miss the point of the game somehow. Grinding for low level gear from dungeons isn’t right either. GW2 is about a lot of things including world events, event chains, mini games, jumping puzzles, and so on and those are all available at low level too.

“My friends don’t have that kind of time…” or patience it seems.

So, why are you playing a MMO again? They are time sinks. Although, admittedly GW2 can be less of a time hog than many sub based mmos, because it’s ok to walk away from it when you need to.

Still, the open world is the main part of the pve. You’re supposed to take the time to explore it, to talk to the npcs in order to find some of the ‘hidden’ things like the open world dungeons or certain jumping puzzles. You asked how you would find such things without a wiki…by exploring. I found several of the previously mentioned by doing exactly that.

As someone else said you can find mini-dungeons without the wiki, either by exploring and stumbling across them or by talking/listening to NPCs in the area. Unless of course you’re rushing through the area as fast as you can to ‘complete’ all the points on your check list.

There are also enemies in the open-world who require you to know how to dodge in order to fight them. Some of the world bosses for a start, and the champion wurm in Diessa Plateau will one-shot you if you don’t dodge their attacks. (The wurm is actually really good for learning to dodge because it also has a very long, very obvious, build-up animation before it hits you, and is high enough that it’s above the particle effects.)

Finally it sounds like you and your friends have also made one of the common mistakes among new players coming from other MMOs. Just because you’re not in a party with someone doesn’t mean you’re not playing with them. Some of the best experiences I’ve had in this game have been completing content with whoever happened to be around without ever joining a party. I did one of the mini-dungeons (Flame Temple Tombs) with a group of about 9 people. We were all progressing through it together, playing cooperatively (for example at one point we split into two teams, one went to get an object from one room while the other started on the puzzle that unlocks the room where that object is needed, then we regrouped all went in together) and being able to do it without needing to be in a party actually made it better because it meant anyone who wanted to join in could do, instead of missing out because they were the 6th person to show up.

There are a lot of activities in the open-world which you’ll find virtually impossible to complete alone. You don’t need to be in a party but you need other people to do it with you and when you start doing them you’ll find yourself playing cooperatively almost by default (rezzing people who need it, laying down fields and creating combos, progressing together etc.)

Because it would be a massive waste of effort. People will only do the dungeon once or twice, or get carried through it by guildies (and this removing its purpose entirely), and then never do it again.

I think we need a new endgame dungeon with challenging mechanics and unique rewards as opposed to a levelling dungeon for the extremely low levelled which gets done once and then ignored.

Andrige.5609:

I might not have explained this well enough in the OP, but my friends are not those with time to spare to go from level 1-30, just to see that there’s dungeon content. That could take weeks.

A week is all it takes to get to level 80, not 30, in fact first levels are really fast.
I don’t think that anyone here is particularly young or has a sea of time, however if your friend didn’t like the game, they didn’t like it. Making it easier wouldn’t fix that.
Want to give them a learning experience? Tell them to do their personal story, want to teach them how to dodge? Take them to the fire elemental at level 15. We have world bosses, stories, Spvp (that up-levels you) to learn everything that we need, the game is not about the dungeons only.
Though did you take them story mode or explore mode? AC story is really not that hard.

Magnus Steelgrave.6580:

I think its kinda pointless without having your full range of skills or any traits to be having dungeons below level 30… it takes hardly any time or effort to get to level 35 (maybe a week?) for AC and a few runs thru you’re leveled up for a different dungeon

We’re talking here about new lowlevel players, no low level alts of experienced players. And level 35 newbies are going to get slaughtered in AC, even if they’ll be fully geared for their level (which we know they won’t be).

There’s a lot of vitriol in here. Just putting that out there.

I’m just looking for reasons as to why this game has not managed to keep any of the 8 or so friends of mine that tried out the game. This is what I have considered, thought and advocated for a long time as being part of the reason.

I’m personally very sorry that it came out to be that way that no friends of mine sticked around, and would love for ArenaNet to consider this as an issue. Playing together in WoW was much more encouraged and straightforward right from the start. Guild Wars 2 has so much more, but there’s no real way to experience all that within that first period of play. And part of the solution — according to me — would be low level dungeons.

This game isn’t about dungeons though. It’s about being in the open world. Playing together is just as encouraged:
- no grouping required to play together, you and your 8 friends can do everything together. no leaving the odd-man out because you have too many for the allotted party size
- no kill stealing
- no node stealing
- jump in at will events

Playing together is still straight forward… you run around and do things together. However, in the open world there is no necessarily single correct way to go about the play. Unlike in a dungeon where there is only a single path that must happen in a linear fashion.

There is much less in the way of ‘hand holding’ in this game. Nothing that says ‘go here, do this. now do this. now go here’ in any hard fashion, which bothers a lot of people.

@OP:
When I first started playing PvE in GW2 the first real “wow” moment (apart from the scenery, dialogue, events etc.) was the swamp world boss in Queensdale. Maybe showing one of the low level world bosses would work for your friends as well ?

I beg to differ about the statement that there’s no way to experience GW2 at first… Cities are beautiful and lively, there’s tons of events happening everywhere, starting maps have champion mobs and world bosses in them, mini dungeons and jumping puzzles… Going into WvW uplevels your character and gives you at least a surviving chance against fully geared people.. Going into PvP unlocks everything and puts you on literary same level as a 1yr veteran with thousands of hours invested…

I’ll reiterate what people said: dungeons are not the only thing in this game worth visiting. Besides, they (should) appeal more to people who already discovered majority of other content, broke the initial illusion of the game and started seeing some of the flaws. If your friends don’t find all of what they can do right from the start appealing then I guess that’s just the way it is and I’m sorry for you not being able to enjoy the game with them.

And forums are quite toxic and polarized about pretty much everything. IMHO they are the worst part of the game. Just don’t let the more vocal members get to you.

I’m way too invested in this topic, but… anyway…
I’ve added a ‘pitch’ to the OP that explains how I envision a low level dungeon. If you’re interested.

Lots of good recommendations and ideas in this thread.

OP, I see where you’re coming from in trying to figure out why some of your friends didn’t stick around. I too had about 6 or 7 friends who got this game on release day with me. None of them play any longer. To me, it’s not a lack of anything in the game, it’s just that GW2 just wasn’t for them or that they would rather go play their FPS.

I leveled up my alts by playing AC. I jumped into that dungeon as soon as I hit 30 and got to 40 or higher doing it. Below that level, really the open world is the best spot. With World Bosses in 4 of the 5 starting maps and more large scale events in the 15-20 zones as well there is plenty to be had and give a great experience with out going into a dungeon. Also the rewards for the World Bosses are not shabby to say the least.

i hear ya, OP. I had trouble getting my friends into this game as well, except it was in the PvP side.

Yeah, pvp is super accessible because they give you a full lvl 80 character, but a new player has no idea what to do with that lvl 80 character, and it is very overwhelming.

I think low lvl dungeons would be welcome and i would most definitely do them on alts before lvl 30.

I used to be all about ragefire chasm in WoW, and you only needed to be like lvl 8 to get a genuine 5 man group experience.

In GW2, you only need to be lvl 30 to get berrated in AC for not being lvl 80, haha.

Scrambles.2604:

i hear ya, OP. I had trouble getting my friends into this game as well, except it was in the PvP side.

Yeah, pvp is super accessible because they give you a full lvl 80 character, but a new player has no idea what to do with that lvl 80 character, and it is very overwhelming.

I can’t speak for PvP but that’s another beast entirely. You can program AI to be friendly to newcomers, but other players just see more fodder for the K/D-ratio. :P
Maybe that’s something for someone else to make a suggestion about?

Scrambles.2604:

I think low lvl dungeons would be welcome and i would most definitely do them on alts before lvl 30.

I used to be all about ragefire chasm in WoW, and you only needed to be like lvl 8 to get a genuine 5 man group experience.

That’s pretty much what I believe as well. I’d love to have this hot-spot, going there with my alts and getting some much needed player-interaction rather than hearts/event grind that quickly gets old.

And that’s just ridiculous how true that is about level 8. At level 8 in WoW you’d probably have even less than what you have in GW2, but still there’s this dungeon.

Scrambles.2604:

In GW2, you only need to be lvl 30 to get berrated in AC for not being lvl 80, haha.

Pretty much! When you’re level 30 with only offensive gear (again, you’re just levelling in the open world where enemies are easy, so why not?), you’re going to have a bad time. :|

And that’s after (for the sort of player I’m talking about with little time available) a week or two of just levelling.

GW2 doesn’t discourage you from grouping, but it doesn’t particularly encourage it either. Even when playing with other people, it feels like you are just soloing next to them. This is the case in open world, or even in dungeons. There is very little in the way of team dynamics (not even talking about trinity type roles). What little interplay there is, is not required or encouraged by the mechanics or dungeons of the game.

Honestly for anyone looking for interesting cooperative pve style gameplay, GW2 is not the game for them, and they were wise to leave early, because GW2 is not that game, and never will be that game.

Cornellious.1435:

GW2 doesn’t discourage you from grouping, but it doesn’t particularly encourage it either. Even when playing with other people, it feels like you are just soloing next to them. This is the case in open world, or even in dungeons. There is very little in the way of team dynamics (not even talking about trinity type roles). What little interplay there is, is not required or encouraged by the mechanics or dungeons of the game.

Honestly for anyone looking for interesting cooperative pve style gameplay, GW2 is not the game for them, and they were wise to leave early, because GW2 is not that game, and never will be that game.

Exactly. That’s the drawback of the game’s design.
But an MMO is an everchanging product, so I don’t think its pointless to think that the game could be different in the future. And there is group-play to be had — I do it all the time on my engineer — but it’s far from straightforward like the traditional roles.

For example if ArenaNet were to one day say that ’we’ll add in single-target support weapon for class X’, I think we’d see a huge shift in how the game plays.

If you go to the explorer achievement panel, a lot of the mini dungeons will actually show you where they are on the map. This way you only have to figure out how to get in and get the achievement. Keep in mind that while the content is easier, not all mini dungeons are soloible, Flame Temple Tombs and Forsaken Fortune comes to mind. I would consider both of these very good training dungeons for the real thing.

I would be really nice to have a dungeon that is considerably easier than AC story. First time I stepped into AC story it was a huge system shock. Mobs seem to have stupidly high hp and they hit so hard. It’s such a huge difference from plowing through events and world mobs. After experiencing that dungeon I basically waited till 80 to do any more dungeons.

It’d be nice to have a dungeon that is a bridge between the two experiences (Open world and dungeons). I know story dungeons were supposed to do this but I don’t think they were remotely close to successful. Even as a fresh 80 I had trouble completing a couple of them. Now that I understand the way dungeons work a bit more they are much easier but those first few were painful.

Pandabro.8743:

I would be really nice to have a dungeon that is considerably easier than AC story. First time I stepped into AC story it was a huge system shock. Mobs seem to have stupidly high hp and they hit so hard. It’s such a huge difference from plowing through events and world mobs. After experiencing that dungeon I basically waited till 80 to do any more dungeons.

It’d be nice to have a dungeon that is a bridge between the two experiences (Open world and dungeons). I know story dungeons were supposed to do this but I don’t think they were remotely close to successful. Even as a fresh 80 I had trouble completing a couple of them. Now that I understand the way dungeons work a bit more they are much easier but those first few were painful.

Like I said, try Flame Temple Tombs or Forsaken Fortune. They’re challenging, but nearly as punishing as AC.

Saturn.6591:

So I guess your friends are like “I want everything now, and I don’t have the patience to wait a little bit longer to get to it”.

And this is helpful? No, this is bad mouthing someone. Your clearly to ignorant to understand the OPs point.

Andrige.5609:

TheDaiBish.9735:

There are a few mini-dungeons out in the world for levels below 30:

• Flame Temple Tombs
• Provernic Crypt
• Goff’s Bandits
• Beggar’s Burrow
• Don’t Touch The Shiny
• Tears of Itlaocol
• Old Oola Lab
• Verarium Delves
• Windy Cave

Thanks. However, don’t you think its odd that you’d probably have to look at a wiki using the right search-word to know there are mini-dungeons in this game?

I’m very happy that they exist and aren’t advertised (joy of exploriation, and I’m an explorer-type player myself), but they might as well not exist for newcomers to the game. And for those savvy min-maxing players, I’m also going to bet that their rewards are sub-par/not enough and thus, not really interesting to them while levelling.

I think a dungeon that is properly advertised at early levels have a much, much better chance of forming groups of players that might stick together while they level.

Eh, I dunno. Personally, I think the less advertising the better:

1. It encourages exploration, which also helps with immersion.
2. It encourages the community to interact through asking where certain things are.
3. Failing that, it doesn’t spoil the sense of exploration for those who don’t want big stars and arrows pointing where to go, while those who want the ‘wham, bam, thank you ma’am’ approach have a source to get the locations from.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Eh, I dunno. Personally, I think the less advertising the better:

1. It encourages exploration, which also helps with immersion.
2. It encourages the community to interact through asking where certain things are.
3. Failing that, it doesn’t spoil the sense of exploration for those who don’t want big stars and arrows pointing where to go, while those who want the ‘wham, bam, thank you ma’am’ approach have a source to get the locations from.

While they are technically “explorer” achievements, I think they added the map tags on the achievement panel because many get done so infrequently. For me, I have map completion and can’t be bothered to run around randomly looking for things I missed. Perhaps a better option would be if the map tags didn’t show up until you have at least one character with map completion.

Leamas.5803:

While they are technically “explorer” achievements, I think they added the map tags on the achievement panel because many get done so infrequently. For me, I have map completion and can’t be bothered to run around randomly looking for things I missed. Perhaps a better option would be if the map tags didn’t show up until you have at least one character with map completion.

Map icons, like the Vista and such?

There’s an option to turn them off. Maybe add an option to add dungeon, mini-dungeon and jumping puzzle entrances to that toggle?

Ensio.8172:

You were careful not to name the beast, but in WoW most PvE minded players have always done their leveling up in dungeons, so much so that they run the same instance over and over and over again until they’ve leveled up enough to gain access to the next dungeon in line.

I’d be willing to bet that the lack of “easy and simple”, WoW style linear corridor run type dungeons at both low and mid level is keeping quite a few players away from the game.

Those who’ve played WoW know that ‘Deadmines’ or ‘Ragefire Chasm’ are quite different from ‘Ascalonian Catacombs’.

Back when 4 days played time was considered fast, no one who was considered a power leveler would ever do dungeons. Well. . . except ZF during BC, soloing ZF after many of the class revamps was unreal if you had the AoE, even after they added so many quest to the unpopulated areas.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Leamas.5803:

While they are technically “explorer” achievements, I think they added the map tags on the achievement panel because many get done so infrequently. For me, I have map completion and can’t be bothered to run around randomly looking for things I missed. Perhaps a better option would be if the map tags didn’t show up until you have at least one character with map completion.

Map icons, like the Vista and such?

There’s an option to turn them off. Maybe add an option to add dungeon, mini-dungeon and jumping puzzle entrances to that toggle?

No, no ,no,. If you go in to the explorer achievements and click on Goff’s Loot, for instance, there is a button “Kessex Hills” which shows you exactly where to go for the achievement. I’m suggesting hiding these buttons until map completion is achieved on at least one character to encourage more exploration.

That said, I’d like to see an option for JP entrances, but again, only after having completed them at least once on the account, or after attaining map completion. Kind of how dungeons are now, where they just show up on the map when you reach the respective level, whether you have the area explored or not. IMO, map completion should show you everything, as a reward.

Leamas.5803:

Like I said, try Flame Temple Tombs or Forsaken Fortune. They’re challenging, but nearly as punishing as AC.

I had no idea these existed. If they are a good “intro” to dungeons why aren’t they being used as such? There is no way I would have stumbled across before I hit 30 and am told that there is a dungeon awaiting me. Seems a little backwards to me.

hoping for eventual open world mini private instances
example: instead of queensdale champ train/farm
have separate entry “stars” (like the ones used for personal story)

let’s say one outside the troll cave to fight the champion troll + grubs or something
limit: up to 5 players
level: depends on level of boss mob +/- 5 levels
(which means level 80s can’t join for the troll fight to encourage low level partying or something like that)

reward for daily competion: x silver and/or crafting materials? karma? exp?
(slightly more if less players, a reason to solo/duo/make it harder/etc.)
+ champion chest of course

for a harder challenge
let’s say open world guild instances
ex: claw of jormag
limit: up to 20 players
etc.

this way, if you want to run around with a bunch of random people and kill champions or camp dragontimers/gw2state/gw2stuff/other… all the time waiting to do those events, you can continue to do so
(it would still be a quicker and have greater rewards possibly)

or if you want to enter a private instance either by yourself or with a party/guild instead, then there will be that option too (yay for options right?)

alternatively or in addition to the above, just give us a 1-x player imitation or some kind of queens gauntlet if that’s easier (x being some number greater than 5 so we can do arena-like stuff with our guilds or more than 5 friends at once)
also have easy/hard modes based on time limit per encounter
(easy having no time limit)
and whatever else might be appealing
thanks