Guild Wars 2

This is just OP’s preference rather than game polish

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

icons are unique, easily identifiable at first glance.

roman numerals, are just roman numerals.
i see them as I, II, III, IV, V … nothing more.
they do not tell me anything more.

icons tell me straight away what that trait does.

8 professions x 5 trait lines x 12 traits = 480 icons. Somehow I don’t think that all 480 would tell you straight away what the associated trait does.

That’s also a lot of development work for very little benefit…

Astraea.6075:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

icons are unique, easily identifiable at first glance.

roman numerals, are just roman numerals.
i see them as I, II, III, IV, V … nothing more.
they do not tell me anything more.

icons tell me straight away what that trait does.

8 professions x 5 trait lines x 12 traits = 480 icons. Somehow I don’t think that all 480 would tell you straight away what the associated trait does.

That’s also a lot of development work for very little benefit…

the roman numerals does not tell anything either.

icons are unique. roman numerals, are not.

480 icons is not a lot of development work.

they can easily outsource the 480 icons.

if the icons are too small, the pop up window could be made bigger when selecting traits.

now look at the poor chopped example and tell me, icons are more easily identifiable because icons are unique, roman numerals are generic.

Bread.7516:

This is just OP’s preference rather than game polish

wrong. icons are polish.
roman numerals are just alpha stage placeholders that they forgotten about.

I don’t get your hate with roman numerals. I can read them just fine.

This is a non issue that mainly exists with you, which is why no one is agreeing with you…

Roman numerals are cleaner, easier to remember and significantly easier to communicate.

If I’m sharing a build with someone I can quickly tell them the numbers. If I was describing icons however it would take longer (“2” vs. “The one that kinda looks like a pair of lungs”) or I could give them the name of the trait and they would have to read through all of them to find it.

Making traits with icons is a dumb idea and when it dies it will leave a dumb corpse.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Bread.7516:

This is just OP’s preference rather than game polish

wrong. icons are polish.
roman numerals are just alpha stage placeholders that they forgotten about.

Evidence to support your claim?

all the arguments you all presented are invalid.

i see roman numerals only. i.e. I, II, III, IV, V …
these numbers tell me nothing.

i do not see the names and description unless i mouse over it.
i must mouse over to check the names and description each time.

tell me how is this better than unique icons identifiable at first glance?
with icons, i can know at first glance what each trait do.

Bread.7516:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Bread.7516:

This is just OP’s preference rather than game polish

wrong. icons are polish.
roman numerals are just alpha stage placeholders that they forgotten about.

Evidence to support your claim?

this is fact, fact does not need evidence.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

all the arguments you all presented are invalid.

i see roman numerals only. i.e. I, II, III, IV, V …
these numbers tell me nothing.

i do not see the names and description unless i mouse over it.
i must mouse over to check the names and description each time.

tell me how is this better than unique icons identifiable at first glance?
with icons, i can know at first glance what each trait do.

Roman numerals are more classy. Art style. Uniformity. Arenanet cares a lot about visual art style.

And again, evidence to show that roman numerals are supposed to be only alpha placeholders?

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Bread.7516:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Bread.7516:

This is just OP’s preference rather than game polish

wrong. icons are polish.
roman numerals are just alpha stage placeholders that they forgotten about.

Evidence to support your claim?

this is fact, fact does not need evidence.

you keep using that word….
it is not a fact- it is your opinion, lets be clear.

It also seems to be a minority opinion because so far everyone else seems to be fine with the Numerals

numerals are fine

i’d like to see build codes like in gw1, just paste in it and save as template, would be even easier.

First: all those colored pictures would look really ugly and destroy the style of the game. The traitwindow is clean and has one style. introducing hundreds of colored pictured would mess this up.

Second: how would all the elementalists icons look like? a flame, another flame, …

Third: How would you picture a trait that deals “5% more damage while health is above 90%”, “cast spectral armor when hp below 25%”, … so that everyone understands what this trait does without looking at the text? I think it is impossible to do so. And then there is no difference between remembering a symbol or a roman number.

And last those numbers are clear and everyone understands them (or should be able to). The System works fine, it is easy to understand and logical.

deSade.9437:

…..
Roman numerals, harder to process? Uh? Come on… they’re just a handful of simbols, you associate the symbol with the meaning. How are japanese people supposed to “process” our alphabet, then? You just learn it. There’s a lot of room in the human brain.
With all the problems in this game, complaining about roman numerals…
… that look stylish as hell, in my modest opinion. They assolve their function just fine.
Why do you want to clutter up the trait panel with unclear and necessarily small icons, enlighten me?

Japanese people, given the choice of using Roman numerals or Arabic numerals, choose Arabic numerals. Go figure.

Also, Roman numerals USED to be our numerals, but we gave it up because it was crap and unfeasbile to be used mathematically. We replaced it with Arabic numerals in the 14th century, because the four operations of arithmetic was easier to work out i.e. addition, subtraction, division and multiplication.

Our language developed because of the need to simplify the language and make things easier to communicate, work with and to memorize. So your point that the language/alphabet is required by nature, to be needlessley complicated, is moot. By your logic we should just name all of our traits in Latin.

are you saying all those colored weapon skills, healing skills, utility skills, elite skills look really ugly and destroy the game? you are wrong.

the trait menu is very user unfriendly at first glance.
i see roman numerals only. no distinctive unique icons at all.

i must mouse over everything roman numeral to see the names and description of each trait.

the icons are based on their name, not their functions.
this is not an issue.

unique distinctive icon is always better than generic roman numerals.

icons for traits should have been in the game since launch, but we have been stuck with roman numerals for more than a year. this is not acceptable.

whyme.3281:

First: all those colored pictures would look really ugly and destroy the style of the game. The traitwindow is clean and has one style. introducing hundreds of colored pictured would mess this up.

Second: how would all the elementalists icons look like? a flame, another flame, …

Third: How would you picture a trait that deals “5% more damage while health is above 90%”, “cast spectral armor when hp below 25%”, … so that everyone understands what this trait does without looking at the text? I think it is impossible to do so. And then there is no difference between remembering a symbol or a roman number.

And last those numbers are clear and everyone understands them (or should be able to). The System works fine, it is easy to understand and logical.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

tell me how is this better than unique icons identifiable at first glance?
with icons, i can know at first glance what each trait do.

Go ahead and draw me up an icon for Elemental Attunement that at first glance will tell me when I attune to an element that myself and nearby allies will gain a boon depending on the element: Fire – Might, 19.5s, 35 power, 35 condition damage; Water – Regen 6.5s, 855 heal; Air – Swiftness 6.5s 33% movement speed; Earth – Protection 6.5s -33% incoming damage; Number of targets 5; Radius 240.

Then make one for Evasive Arcana that shows how I will gain an attunement based spell at the end of a dodge, Fire: Flame Burst, Water: Cleansing Wave; Air Blinding Flash; Earth: Churning Earth.

Now make these 2 icons so unique that I can tell at a glance which one is which.

I have bunches more traits all with some variation of the fire, air, water, earth theme.

But how about difficult to picture traits like maintaining the passive effects of signets when activated, and how that would look different at a glance against reducing the recharge on signets or give a shot at cantrips granting me regeneration and vigor or cantrips grant me might when used.

I’ll wait.

96 unique picture icons would be hard to remember

i hover over them all anyway to see what they do

the numerals make it easy to explain what trait you’re using when sharing builds#

numerals up to XII are easy to learn, it’s not like traits go up to a confusing DCCCLXXXVI or something lol

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

unique distinctive icon is always better than generic roman numerals.

icons for traits should have been in the game since launch, but we have been stuck with roman numerals for more than a year. this is not acceptable.

Roman numbers are fine.

You can transmit your build easily over a game chat, and it is different from arabic numbers which, if they were used, would be confusing with the number of trait points spent.

TL;DR: it’s an effective way to show your trait build.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Player Character.9467:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

i can’t believe you all settle for roman numerals over icons.

icons will be much easier to remember than roman numerals!

So you would rather have “You want to take squiggly line in arms, purple heart in strength, and the pig face in your 5th line” instead of “Take arms IV, strength III, and _ V”

yes. icons > roman numerals

i say the full names of the traits when i share my traits build with others anyway.
roman numerals are just lazy. and confusing.

You are complaining about how difficult it is to have to mouse over the icon to remember what the skill is and then state that the Roman numerals is lazy design.

You see anything wrong with this?

It really is nothing but your personal preference and nothing more.

Given how often they combine functionality or completely repurpose a slot …while savaging nothing but an increasingly inaccurate trait name… I’m glad they stick to numerals.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

all the arguments you all presented are invalid.

i see roman numerals only. i.e. I, II, III, IV, V …
these numbers tell me nothing.

i do not see the names and description unless i mouse over it.
i must mouse over to check the names and description each time.

tell me how is this better than unique icons identifiable at first glance?
with icons, i can know at first glance what each trait do.

All of the arguments that you have presented are invalid.

With icons we will only see pic1, pic2, pic3 etc.
These icons still tell me nothing.

I can not see the names and description unless I mouse over it.
I must mouse over each individual icon to check the names and description each time.

Tell me how is this better than simple, clear, concise, elegant and easily identifiable numerals?
With roman numerals, I can know at first glance what tier each trait is in and what it does.

I’d rather keep the roman numerals if there was an option, specially when copying a new build on a website, it’s much easier (at least for me) to just look for the 6 or 7 trait than to look for it among a bunch of icons.

Plus it make it easier to give build advice (for example, saying that I’m using a 10 ( 2 ) 30 ( 3 6 12 ) 0 30 ( 3 7 8 ) 0 is much easier to say and to re-create than having to name each major trait).

Ever play Skyrim?

You don’t see traits very often so there is no reason to waste development time on them. Creating 480 icons would be a huge pain if they were to have the quality of skill bar icons.

So let’s recap, this thread is (to a large extent) only still up because the OP keeps repeating himself in claiming that icons are superior to roman numerals and that he can’t believe “we” are all fine with an unpolished product in a beta format.

What we need is a compromise. We all know that one reason we like roman numerals is that we can “type” it to relay the information to other people (or write it down for ourselves).

Type-able icons = smileys!

frown tongueincheek smile frown frown grin

Roman numerals is much better in my opinion due to quick reference. It is much easier on a forum or on a build discussion to say “Curses IV” when than it is to give the full trait name. If they change it to an icon you no longer have that quick reference point.

I totally prefer the roman numerals over icons. Just consider them Icons and move on. As others have said I don’t want to give my build out saying:

“Oh, it’s cat, dog, rhino and croc, moa, squirrel”

No thanks.

This thread was amusing to read at first but now I’m bored because the OP keeps repeating the same argument: icons are prettier and more polished compared to Roman numbers; therefore, icons are better than Roman numbers. I think this argument is unnecessary because:

First, most people have gotten used to it, for example: if an experienced Ele with 0/30/0/20/20 wants to deal more damage, he/she can quickly select Air VI,X,XII Water IV, VI Arcana V,VI without the need to look at trait descriptions. The key is know your class well, new players will need time to achieve this. Imo, there is no need to fix something that’s not broken.

Second, let assume that Anet suddenly thinks like the OP, they can design the icon to fit with class themes, and begins to draw icons for traits, then one problem will stands out: traits with multiple effects like Ele’s Arcana II ( Arcana Resurrection), Thief’s Deadly Arts VII (Improvisation) will be very hard to draw to match its description on a 2cm x 2cm space. Even if they managed to draw it, the details would be too small and then I would need buy a magnifying glass.

Finally, I dont think Anet’s Art team wants to do something insignificant as trait icons when they have to draw concept arts, model details, character animations… for new contents every 2 weeks. Honestly, if I were them, I would put trait icons at the bottom of the list

Just me and my opinions.

Smile smile nod grin smile.

This is the way of the peaceful monk build.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Bread.7516:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Bread.7516:

This is just OP’s preference rather than game polish

wrong. icons are polish.
roman numerals are just alpha stage placeholders that they forgotten about.

Evidence to support your claim?

this is fact, fact does not need evidence.

Actually in order for it to be a fact it does require supporting evidence. Did you never take an English class in high school and write a persuasive essay?

On topic: I have no issue with the use of Roman numerals. I do not consider them to be ‘unpolished place holders’ Many things use Roman numerals as their means of representation (take the Super Bowl for example). It is clean and concise.

Lol at the guy able to read roman numerals since age 7, since when is this hard?

The trait system in GW2 is pretty unique. I like it. The combination of the skills themselves paired with significant stat changes based on the trait lines you’re speccing makes developing builds challenging and rewarding.

I spend a lot of time playing with the traits, and when I’m done I write them down like this:

(This isn’t a real build)

Z: 30, VI, VII, XI
R: 0
V: 30, VI, VIII, X
H: 0
V: 10, I

Makes for a nice looking build writeup!

And sometimes my brain just substitutes number in there instead of roman numerals.

I don’t see any problem… I look at the icons long enough to identify the number, if the numbers were smaller then I would be spending more time finding them, not less. The roman numerals add character. If I don’t know what the skill specifically does then I need to mouse over it, I would be doing the same thing if it was a picture of a bird/etc. instead of a number…

In GW2 we can read our builds without the need of “Yeah, in that line I use the doggy face and the broken ankle” Ô.ô!!! sounds more logical to simply say 30 – 1, 5 and 11.

Roman numbers instead of conventional numbers are used to give some kind of iconic representation already, putting a bear paw won’t make it better.

icons are unique, roman numerals are generic.

this is fact.

everything else is invalid.

Arenanet will never change it to your preference.

is also a fact.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

icons are unique, roman numerals are generic.

this is fact.

everything else is invalid.

So stop posting and create 480+ uniquely identifiable icons that clearly indicate/communicate what each trait is used for? Be sure to provide multiple resolutions, in .psd format along with optional variants so the legal team can replace them should one of them contain potentially offensive material that they see as a problem.

GOSU.9574:

So, how many icons across how many classes do you feel you need for your Hello Kitty MMO?

the original guild wars was released with 456 unique skills along with 456 unique skill icons.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Skill

after 1 year, 350 new skills with 350 new icons were introduced.
how many skills does guild wars 2 comes release with?

Neural.1824:

So stop posting and create 480+ uniquely identifiable icons that clearly indicate/communicate what each trait is used for? Be sure to provide multiple resolutions, in .psd format along with optional variants so the legal team can replace them should one of them contain potentially offensive material that they see as a problem.

i am not a professional artist, but i can come up with crude ugly simple concept art.

please give me some time.

there is no argument against the utility using roman numerals brings to the ease of communication about builds.

so icons are prettier? I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say no kitten, but anyone who’s ever looked up a build on these forums would pretty swiftly agree that the functionality >>>>>>>> looking pretty.

the fact that you are so adamant about having pictures instead of numerals is kind of funny, really, especially with your argument that it’s “lazy” when it has very much everything to do intentionally with contributing to the ease of communication.

they do not let you reorganized the weapon bars for the same reason—so that dagger 4 is always the same skill. “dagger 4” is significantly easier on average for players to remember than “Dancing Dagger,” which some people may not immediately identify because people do not always look at the skill names very closely.

same for traits. strength IV is always strength IV. nobody has to remember “that picture of a screaming dude, which warriors have 17 of.” that said i don’t even know what the name of strength IV for warrior is, but if I looked at a build and it says “pick strength IV” i would be able to figure it out many times faster than trying to find the name of that trait in the tree, of which there are three subsets per traitline.

deal with it

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

so you are saying we are fine with this?

Yes. It does not bother me at all.

in patch notes, they write the full names of the traits, not the roman numerals.

strength IV tells me nothing. it just tells me strength IV

however, by associating it with a unique icon, i will know what that trait is upon looking at the icon that i am familiar with.

roman numerals are generic.

anyway, someone told me to draw, i’ll start off with warrior since i play warrior more often than others nowadays.

this is “Death from Above” or “Strength I”
my concept art is some full armored guy leaping from above.
with some visual effects at the top.

next, we have “Restorative Strength” or “Strength II”
concept art is a muscle arm flexing, with red crosses floating about.

3rd, is “Great Fortitude” or “Strength III”
concept art is a topless buff muscular male chest flexing.

trait icons are tiny, they wouldn’t change much if they were added. also there’s a number of traits that would be difficult/non-intuitive to make into an icon. I prefer the current roman numerals by far, they just look less cluttered and messy.

Roman numerals are icons, they are just shaped in the form of letters. If strength IV doesn’t tell you anything how will strength “insert picture” tell you anything more?

guanlongwucaii.3162:

trait icons are tiny, they wouldn’t change much if they were added. also there’s a number of traits that would be difficult/non-intuitive to make into an icon. I prefer the current roman numerals by far, they just look less cluttered and messy.

the traits selection pop up window could be made bigger once they properly replace traits with proper unique icons and not generic roman numerals.

every trait would have a suitable icon, there is no difficult / non-intuitive icon.

look at all the utility skills of each profession.
there is an icon for each skill, yes?

the same can be applied for the traits.
it can be done.

Julie Yann.5379:

Roman numerals are icons, they are just shaped in the form of letters. If strength IV doesn’t tell you anything how will strength “insert picture” tell you anything more?

refer to the image.

i see the “I” it only tells me “I” and nothing else.

i see the icon with a guy flying from above.
i know at once that icon is referring to “Death from Above” because the icon is unique, easily identifiable at first glance.

roman numerals just tells me a number, that’s it.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Julie Yann.5379:

Roman numerals are icons, they are just shaped in the form of letters. If strength IV doesn’t tell you anything how will strength “insert picture” tell you anything more?

refer to the image.

i see the “I” it only tells me “I” and nothing else.

i see the icon with a guy flying from above.
i know at once that icon is referring to “Death from Above” because the icon is unique, easily identifiable at first glance.

roman numerals just tells me a number, that’s it.

But all you have to do is mouse over it to get the description. Personally I find it easier to memorize numbers than pictures, maybe they could give you a option of what which to display. But you will find that anyone describing their builds will not be linking pictures.

Julie Yann.5379:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Julie Yann.5379:

Roman numerals are icons, they are just shaped in the form of letters. If strength IV doesn’t tell you anything how will strength “insert picture” tell you anything more?

refer to the image.

i see the “I” it only tells me “I” and nothing else.

i see the icon with a guy flying from above.
i know at once that icon is referring to “Death from Above” because the icon is unique, easily identifiable at first glance.

roman numerals just tells me a number, that’s it.

But all you have to do is mouse over it to get the description. Personally I find it easier to memorize numbers than pictures, maybe they could give you a option of what which to display. But you will find that anyone describing their builds will not be linking pictures.

imagine you need to swap utility skills, the utility skills pop up window shows a bunch of roman numerals. how would you feel?

the fact is, we must mouse over to get the name of the trait and description.

with icons, we can recognize the trait immediately and select it immediately.

the current system allows us to shift click to link the name skills in the chat box, this could be easily made with the traits menu as well, shift click on a trait to link the trait’s name in the chat box.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Julie Yann.5379:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Julie Yann.5379:

Roman numerals are icons, they are just shaped in the form of letters. If strength IV doesn’t tell you anything how will strength “insert picture” tell you anything more?

refer to the image.

i see the “I” it only tells me “I” and nothing else.

i see the icon with a guy flying from above.
i know at once that icon is referring to “Death from Above” because the icon is unique, easily identifiable at first glance.

roman numerals just tells me a number, that’s it.

But all you have to do is mouse over it to get the description. Personally I find it easier to memorize numbers than pictures, maybe they could give you a option of what which to display. But you will find that anyone describing their builds will not be linking pictures.

imagine you need to swap utility skills, the utility skills pop up window shows a bunch of roman numerals. how would you feel?

the fact is, we must mouse over to get the name of the trait and description.

with icons, we can recognize the trait immediately and select it immediately.

the current system allows us to shift click to link the name skills in the chat box, this could be easily made with the traits menu as well, shift click on a trait to link the trait’s name in the chat box.

I would probably prefer that actually. Like I said, I find it easier to memorizes numbers than pictures. I would find it easier to switch from Shout 1 to Shout 3 instead of what picture “fear me” or FGJ is. When I am swapping my traits on the run I am not looking for “restorative strength” I am looking for strength III.

^ so you are telling me it is fine if all the skills in the game are represented by roman numerals?

The only thing I agree with you about is that images are generally easier to recognize and make associations with for the human brain than numbers.

It would probably be more intuitive to use, for example, a modified icon of the affected skill to indicate the trait effect, but within the current system numbers have their own advantages.

Numbers in this case give us a great amount of information. Anyone can recognize at first glance the tier of the trait they’re staring at, and unlike colors (as you suggested), numbers give us a direct idea of the hierarchy of those traits. The current system makes searching for a specific trait easier, for example; I do not have to look at every single icon, if I’m looking for trait #2 I know it’s at the beginning of the list. [[Colors would also be a problem for daltonic people.]]
Numbers are easier to share and theorycraft builds with. They do not look unpolished; that is subjective.

Overall I do not have a preference…

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

^ so you are telling me it is fine if all the skills in the game are represented by roman numerals?

If they were organized by type like

Heals I, II, III
Stance I,II,III
Movement, I,II,III etc.

Yes, I would find it much easier to navigate. Not everyone’s brain is wired the same. I can understand how descriptive icons would work better for you. I just memorize what skill 1 does skill 2 does and so on. It’s the same on my weapon skills, I know the effects and names of skills 1-5 on all my weapons, but if you show me the picture I could not tell you which is which (maybe some but not all).

You must be casual if you can’t remember your own trait.

You know what I remember as a Guardian?

Zeal 2 is +10% vs burning
Zeal 3 is reduced fall damage

Radiance 6 is Blind Exposure
Radiance 10 is +5% Sword/Scepter
Radiance 11 is RHS

Honor 2 is reduced shouts CD
Honor 8 is might stacking
Honor 9 is Two-Handed Mastery

Virtues 1 is Unscathed Contender
Virtues 5 is +50% spirit weapon duration
Virtues 6 is Master of Consecrations
Virtues 9 is F2 cleanse
Vitues 10 is F3 stability

Do you know why I remember these? They’re the traits that get swapped in/out (or for Radiance, there’s simply nothing better in all circumstances than those 3) per pull, and I memorize the numeral or effect or trait placement by changing them as per encounter. This leads me to believe that you barely ever change your traits, or have absolutely terrible memory.

But the point of this is, just because you say icons will be easier and label it fact does not make it so. Clearly, because I remember all of those by number, so I can as easily put forwars the claim that memorizing number sequences is easiest, fact.

No, you’re speaking for yourself. This whole post isn’t even about me, it’s about you. Stop insisting things are more or less acceptable in accordance to your prerogative. There’s literally nothing stopping anyone else from using your own argument on you from the other side of the fence and they’ll both sound the exact same. That’s why your argument is trash.