Guild Wars 2

The population isn’t split between hard core and casual, there are 3 million people in between the two extremes. ANet targets its game to maximise the people who will benefit, and hence retain them. ie. it’s the people in the middle (bell curve) that they target.

Sandpit.3467:

The population isn’t split between hard core and casual, there are 3 million people in between the two extremes. ANet targets its game to maximise the people who will benefit, and hence retain them. ie. it’s the people in the middle (bell curve) that they target.

These casual vs. hardcore threads pop up about once a week and I always find it odd that people insist on labeling the entire player base on these two extremes. There is a lot of grey area between the two and I imagine a significant player base that fits into that grey area.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Meglobob.8620:

Casuals spend the most $ on gems because they having paying jobs.

Hardcore players or players who put the hours in use gold to buy gems.

Without casuals no GW2.

how could this be true is the game sold 3.5 mil? where did that money went to?

• Recuperating costs of developing the game
• Wages
• Bills – Building, Electric, Water
• Equipment maintenance + Server costs
• Profit

Nuka Cola.8520:

Meglobob.8620:

Casuals spend the most $ on gems because they having paying jobs.

Hardcore players or players who put the hours in use gold to buy gems.

Without casuals no GW2.

how could this be true if the game sold 3.5 mil? where did that money went to?

It costs alot to develop and NCsoft want there investment back plus a nice juicy profit.

Also, programmers have high salaries don’t you know, they have 4 teams producing living story that costs $$$.

Plus all the other wage/staff costs. Advertising/promotion. Then the bills. Servers cost money to run.

Apparently, the voice over people for the various characters cost $3,000 to $4,000.

The $10,000 dollar prizes for tPvP tournements.

Probably spent the box sale money by now…

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

More importantly, why are so many MMOs assuming people are going to stop playing a game they’ve been playing and paying into for years to play the new, shiny, and untried game which may not be any good?

I know a fair number of people who would try games for a couple months, then go back to what was the most familiar or where they had been spending their time. For MMOs it was EverQuest or WoW. Why? Because that’s where their stuff is and they worked SO hard to earn it, it feels like a waste to cut the cord.

The biggest problem in this respect is the sub-based games’ “first month free” promotions. A new game is hyped up to be the greatest MMO ever, millions of people swarm the servers at launch, crashes happen and bugs break the game, and when the free month is over a lot of people decide to go back to their max level toons in WoW and continue doing what is familiar instead of gearing up a brand new toon.

A month is long enough for a hardcore player to sample the entire game anyway, so he got an MMO experience for a single player price. Then he goes back to the familiar old game or another new game, and the company running the game sees a surge of players at launch that suddenly drops off a month to six weeks later. Then there’s bad publicity through word of mouth, empty servers, bugs that they can’t fix, and a rush to release new content to keep players logging in long enough to make money.

It’s a cycle that has been repeated many times since WoW reached its peak. But when the best a game can offer is a second-rate WoW experience, it’s almost inevitable that people will prefer the real thing.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Meglobob.8620:

Casuals spend the most $ on gems because they having paying jobs.

Hardcore players or players who put the hours in use gold to buy gems.

Without casuals no GW2.

how could this be true is the game sold 3.5 mil? where did that money went to?

• Recuperating costs of developing the game
• Wages
• Bills – Building, Electric, Water
• Equipment maintenance + Server costs
• Profit

3.500.000 do i need to add anything else? Its not 500k we’re talking about but 3.5mil………… this is just sad excuses

Nuka Cola.8520:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Meglobob.8620:

Casuals spend the most $ on gems because they having paying jobs.

Hardcore players or players who put the hours in use gold to buy gems.

Without casuals no GW2.

how could this be true is the game sold 3.5 mil? where did that money went to?

• Recuperating costs of developing the game
• Wages
• Bills – Building, Electric, Water
• Equipment maintenance + Server costs
• Profit

3.500.000 do i need to add anything else? Its not 500k we’re talking about but 3.5mil………… this is just sad excuses

Well he didn’t list equipment upgrades, which can cost a lot if you have to do them in a large bulk and at a high enough level. Also, as someone DID point out it’s likely it’s not ANet that gets the money, it’s NCsoft who gets it and hands back what they feel is needed for an operating budget.

I don’t think it’s a question of who GW2 caters to. If you look at the marketing for the game, you can argue they’ve dug themselves into a hole (whether that’s a bad hole, or a niche in the market is up to each person), and the hole doesn’t fit either casual or hardcore players that well.

No Endgame
- They’ve been pretty clear that they don’t want players to race to max level to participate in the endgame. How do you accomplish this? By either spreading content over all levels, or by making content available to all levels (i.e. upscaling). This is a two-edged sword, however. If you look past the marketing/happy thoughts, this also means a certain subset of players will find the game experience lacking at a certain point, unless they like the perpetual achievement grind of the Living Story system.

No Holy Trinity
- Ignoring that I think GW2 actually has a holy trinity, just with different names (control, damage and support) and poorly implemented in PVE (neither control or support truly matter), the current system makes it hard to design large, strategically complex fights that 1) require teamwork, and 2) discourage glass cannon specs and encourage support specs. Any incoming damage can be dodged (or negated via AR), and if they were to make damage spikes more frequent than the ability to dodge, the most popular glass cannon class (Warrior) starts with about double the eHP of the lowest eHP class (Elementalists) so any damage distribution that actually wards against full zerker Warriors will severely limit the viability of certain other classes. Yes, you can mitigate via protection boons, but in a group setting, the zerker warrior also benefits from this so I don’t know how they would be able to move away from the current meta to something that rewards players for playing support or control (often, in big enough fights, you won’t even get kill credit if you aren’t using a damage spec). A certain subset of players is bound to be displeased by what amounts to simply zerg AFK/autoattacking boss-level targets. The three methods GW2 has so far tried in making more challenging fights (more HP, constant knockdowns, and sea of red circles) haven’t really panned out.

Living Story
- While constantly updated content is usually a GOOD thing, it’s the lack of attention to bugs since day one that has many players angry. How can you boast about a game that is constant updated, when there’s a rather large aspect of the game that is almost never updated? If the bug support team actually replied to bug threads with the frequency of the legendary Gaile, as opposed to simply hoping the threads will fade into obscurity (cough, Crab Toss achievement bug, where there was no response to a time sensitive issue until the end of the event, and I’m not sure it was even properly resolved), THEN we can talk about how this game is constantly updated. I’m also not sure who Living Story caters to. Most casuals don’t have the time to keep up with the frequency of updates, yet many hardcore players are also displeased with the lack of attention to the core game or they feel overwhelmed by what has become an achievement grind.

tl;dr: This game is confused as it caters to both casuals and hardcores at the same time, while completely pleasing neither. The gameplay isn’t difficult enough for hardcores, but the schedule/achievement grind is too busy for casuals. My two cents anyway.

tolunart.2095:

Danikat.8537:

Why are most MMOs struggling and/or shutting down relatively quickly, or going free-to-play and attempting to draw in more causal players?

Because they tried to be a better WoW than WoW.

Truth be said, that’s what the great majority of MMORPG players are looking for.

They will never find it, of course – no game will be a better WoW than WoW – but that’s what people keep asking for. Just compare how many topics we have asking for more of the things unique to GW2 (dynamic events, personal storyline, living world), and how many topics we have about raids, mounts, the holy trinity, and so on.

Nuka Cola.8520:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Meglobob.8620:

Casuals spend the most $ on gems because they having paying jobs.

Hardcore players or players who put the hours in use gold to buy gems.

Without casuals no GW2.

how could this be true is the game sold 3.5 mil? where did that money went to?

• Recuperating costs of developing the game
• Wages
• Bills – Building, Electric, Water
• Equipment maintenance + Server costs
• Profit

3.500.000 do i need to add anything else? Its not 500k we’re talking about but 3.5mil………… this is just sad excuses

Do you have any idea what the overhead on a business employing 300 or so people is? Do you have any idea how much professionals working on the west coast of the U.S. are paid? How much money beyond that is spent on benefits? What the costs of building space, utilities, etc. in Seattle are? What loans were taken out to cover 5+ years of development?

IndigoSundown.5419:

Nuka Cola.8520:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Meglobob.8620:

Casuals spend the most $ on gems because they having paying jobs.

Hardcore players or players who put the hours in use gold to buy gems.

Without casuals no GW2.

how could this be true is the game sold 3.5 mil? where did that money went to?

• Recuperating costs of developing the game
• Wages
• Bills – Building, Electric, Water
• Equipment maintenance + Server costs
• Profit

3.500.000 do i need to add anything else? Its not 500k we’re talking about but 3.5mil………… this is just sad excuses

Do you have any idea what the overhead on a business employing 300 or so people is? Do you have any idea how much professionals working on the west coast of the U.S. are paid? How much money beyond that is spent on benefits? What the costs of building space, utilities, etc. in Seattle are? What loans were taken out to cover 5+ years of development?

Unless either side is going to quote and debate the actual financials of the game and/or company, let’s not pretend either side has any idea, yes?

P.S. The employment reviews on Glassdoor are quite fascinating and worth the read.

Serenity.6149:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Nuka Cola.8520:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Meglobob.8620:

Casuals spend the most $ on gems because they having paying jobs.

Hardcore players or players who put the hours in use gold to buy gems.

Without casuals no GW2.

how could this be true is the game sold 3.5 mil? where did that money went to?

• Recuperating costs of developing the game
• Wages
• Bills – Building, Electric, Water
• Equipment maintenance + Server costs
• Profit

3.500.000 do i need to add anything else? Its not 500k we’re talking about but 3.5mil………… this is just sad excuses

Do you have any idea what the overhead on a business employing 300 or so people is? Do you have any idea how much professionals working on the west coast of the U.S. are paid? How much money beyond that is spent on benefits? What the costs of building space, utilities, etc. in Seattle are? What loans were taken out to cover 5+ years of development?

Unless either side is going to quote and debate the actual financials of the game and/or company, let’s not pretend either side has any idea, yes?

Yep, that was my point.

Personally, I don’t think this game is geared towards casual players, and reading the definitions of what some people perceive to be a hardcore or casual player is strange to me. It’s not all black and white and everyone has a different life, we’re all obviously players. Some people have more time than others, hell I used to play games religiously since I can remember, now I do it when I can. There is no dividing line though, all types of different players will drop cash sometimes maybe for the cash shop. All types of players may leave the game at any time, or whine about a game, or play it for hours and hours, it won’t just be ‘casual’ or ‘hardcore’ players doing one thing or another, they don’t have a written ruleset of what to act like, it doesn’t even exist.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Nuka Cola.8520:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Meglobob.8620:

Casuals spend the most $ on gems because they having paying jobs.

Hardcore players or players who put the hours in use gold to buy gems.

Without casuals no GW2.

how could this be true is the game sold 3.5 mil? where did that money went to?

• Recuperating costs of developing the game
• Wages
• Bills – Building, Electric, Water
• Equipment maintenance + Server costs
• Profit

3.500.000 do i need to add anything else? Its not 500k we’re talking about but 3.5mil………… this is just sad excuses

Do you have any idea what the overhead on a business employing 300 or so people is? Do you have any idea how much professionals working on the west coast of the U.S. are paid? How much money beyond that is spent on benefits? What the costs of building space, utilities, etc. in Seattle are? What loans were taken out to cover 5+ years of development?

Three point five million, that is all.

The definition of “casual players” and “hardcore players” is rather problematic because only a minority has all the characteristics usually associated with one of the two groups.

I’ll demonstrate this by using my own case as an example. Like someone already mentioned, there are a lot of aging “mmo veterans” who are now prioritizing work or relations more than they used to. I’m one of them.

1) Casual usually also implies that a person is bad at the game. This is not the case for many of the older players, like me, who have a lot of experience in high level play (both in fps and mmo’s) and can easily adapt because of this experience.

2) Casual usually implies that a player has limited time and will only do what he really considers to be fun. To some extent this is true for me. As an older player who has seen it all before, I’m less easily persuaded to persue online goals that take a lot of time and effort. However, having less time doesn’t mean you don’t set goals and that you don’t achieve them in an equally efficient way as those who have more time to play. You just have to be more selective about the goals and have more patience. So if the same goals are achieved in a timely manner, is there any real difference? Where do you draw the line between casual and hardcore then?

3) Hardcore implies total dedication. Yet there are people who play the game often enough to not classify as casuals -according to the first two characteristics- but are not completly dedicated to the game.

As you can see, there are a lot of players that fall between the cracks when you define casual and hardcore. This dichotomy is really not durable. You might argue that the amount of time spent defines a hardcore player because this way he accumulates more experience than someone who plays a lot less. But as my example has shown, this disregards a lot of other aspects that also contribute to a player his accumulation of knowledge/experience: prior mmo experience, efficiency of the time played and perhaps also the intelligence of the individual.

tl:dr :Too many variables to talk about “casual” and “hardcore” as two seperate player groups.

Diviner.7405:

So I never really understood this logic.

Why cater to casuals?

I have heard claims and claims that there is a larger casual base than a hardcore base…. but is this really true?

Now I might be wrong here, but I would imagine casuals are the people more likely to move from game to game after 1 month or so then a hardcore player.

So what I see Guild Wars 2 doing is:
Most casuals move on to other games in 1 month or so no matter what you add to the game. It is just their nature.

At the same time, hardcore players are alienated and leave.

So the outcome is that you are losing on both sides. Would it not be better to keep the hardcore fan-base, so you are at least winning on 1 side?

Maybe Im missing something here…. hmmmm

You are missing fact that gw2 is not shrinking, actually playerbase is growing. So whatever Anet does they do it right.

Nuka Cola.8520:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Meglobob.8620:

Casuals spend the most $ on gems because they having paying jobs.

Hardcore players or players who put the hours in use gold to buy gems.

Without casuals no GW2.

how could this be true is the game sold 3.5 mil? where did that money went to?

• Recuperating costs of developing the game
• Wages
• Bills – Building, Electric, Water
• Equipment maintenance + Server costs
• Profit

3.500.000 do i need to add anything else? Its not 500k we’re talking about but 3.5mil………… this is just sad excuses

250 (ish) employees.
$50k per year (just a number for demonstration).

$12,500,000 total salary cost.

Benefits, payroll taxes, etc can readily double that to $25,000,000 per year.

the 500k boxes you mention as being enough, at $60 each, equates to $30,000,000. A touch over one year of salary costs.

The game was in development for 5+ years.
——————————————————————————————

And that doesn’t even cover the costs of things like equipment (were they supposed to operate the game on abacuses ?). Electricity. Water. Property costs. Etc.

Ashen.2907:

Nuka Cola.8520:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Meglobob.8620:

Casuals spend the most $ on gems because they having paying jobs.

Hardcore players or players who put the hours in use gold to buy gems.

Without casuals no GW2.

how could this be true is the game sold 3.5 mil? where did that money went to?

• Recuperating costs of developing the game
• Wages
• Bills – Building, Electric, Water
• Equipment maintenance + Server costs
• Profit

3.500.000 do i need to add anything else? Its not 500k we’re talking about but 3.5mil………… this is just sad excuses

250 (ish) employees.
$50k per year (just a number for demonstration).

$12,500,000 total salary cost.

Benefits, payroll taxes, etc can readily double that to $25,000,000 per year.

the 500k boxes you mention as being enough, at $60 each, equates to $30,000,000. A touch over one year of salary costs.

The game was in development for 5+ years.
——————————————————————————————

And that doesn’t even cover the costs of things like equipment (were they supposed to operate the game on abacuses ?). Electricity. Water. Property costs. Etc.

For a game to be in development for 5+ years it has many missing things. Sad excuse

ArchonWing.9480:

ShiningSquirrel.3751:

I have seen the complete opposite. My friends who where “hardcore” finished all content available in a few weeks, and left never to return. I consider myself a “casual” player, and I am still here, still playing with my main and still have story and content to do. I am the one who spends money in the gem store, not my “hardcore” friends.

Yea, I’m afraid people may confuse locusts with hardcore players. The type that just consumes content as a sort of rat race and then leave to the next crop. I wouldn’t care much for keeping those, except to capture the burst in sales when an expansion is released.

Hardcore players are the type to theorycraft, explore the game’s intricacies and provide input on how to make it better as well as participating in competitive aspects.

It’s always a false dichotomy to just say there are casuals and hardcore players, of course.

this pretty much sums it up.

Sleuth.7964:

Ashen.2907:

Nuka Cola.8520:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Meglobob.8620:

Casuals spend the most $ on gems because they having paying jobs.

Hardcore players or players who put the hours in use gold to buy gems.

Without casuals no GW2.

how could this be true is the game sold 3.5 mil? where did that money went to?

• Recuperating costs of developing the game
• Wages
• Bills – Building, Electric, Water
• Equipment maintenance + Server costs
• Profit

3.500.000 do i need to add anything else? Its not 500k we’re talking about but 3.5mil………… this is just sad excuses

250 (ish) employees.
$50k per year (just a number for demonstration).

$12,500,000 total salary cost.

Benefits, payroll taxes, etc can readily double that to $25,000,000 per year.

the 500k boxes you mention as being enough, at $60 each, equates to $30,000,000. A touch over one year of salary costs.

The game was in development for 5+ years.
——————————————————————————————

And that doesn’t even cover the costs of things like equipment (were they supposed to operate the game on abacuses ?). Electricity. Water. Property costs. Etc.

For a game to be in development for 5+ years it has many missing things. Sad excuse

I am making no excuses. The individual I quoted seemed to be claiming that 500k boxes was sufficient funding. I pointed out that such would barely cover payroll expenses for one year, let alone all of the other costs associate with running a business. Every game is missing many things. WoW has been in a state of continuous development for over a decade now and is still missing many things.

Main demographic in gaming, regardless of genre = casuals. You know where the most money is earned? Apps and all those free online games, not MMO’s or anything like that. So yea they earn the most money there. Whether or not they specifically cater to them is another story, something we will never know. They’re trying to do something new and be different from the rest, some like that, some don’t. They atleast are trying to include everyone in their content whereas WoW and other games alienate certain groups or players from certain content.

Ashen.2907:

Sleuth.7964:

Ashen.2907:

Nuka Cola.8520:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Meglobob.8620:

Casuals spend the most $ on gems because they having paying jobs.

Hardcore players or players who put the hours in use gold to buy gems.

Without casuals no GW2.

how could this be true is the game sold 3.5 mil? where did that money went to?

• Recuperating costs of developing the game
• Wages
• Bills – Building, Electric, Water
• Equipment maintenance + Server costs
• Profit

3.500.000 do i need to add anything else? Its not 500k we’re talking about but 3.5mil………… this is just sad excuses

250 (ish) employees.
$50k per year (just a number for demonstration).

$12,500,000 total salary cost.

Benefits, payroll taxes, etc can readily double that to $25,000,000 per year.

the 500k boxes you mention as being enough, at $60 each, equates to $30,000,000. A touch over one year of salary costs.

The game was in development for 5+ years.
——————————————————————————————

And that doesn’t even cover the costs of things like equipment (were they supposed to operate the game on abacuses ?). Electricity. Water. Property costs. Etc.

For a game to be in development for 5+ years it has many missing things. Sad excuse

I am making no excuses. The individual I quoted seemed to be claiming that 500k boxes was sufficient funding. I pointed out that such would barely cover payroll expenses for one year, let alone all of the other costs associate with running a business. Every game is missing many things. WoW has been in a state of continuous development for over a decade now and is still missing many things.

This. People are spoiled and used to 5+ year old games however and assume that when a new game comes out that that game has EVERYTHING the old game did. Nope. Not happening, never will.

Direksone.3867:

Ashen.2907:

Sleuth.7964:

Ashen.2907:

Nuka Cola.8520:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Meglobob.8620:

Casuals spend the most $ on gems because they having paying jobs.

Hardcore players or players who put the hours in use gold to buy gems.

Without casuals no GW2.

how could this be true is the game sold 3.5 mil? where did that money went to?

• Recuperating costs of developing the game
• Wages
• Bills – Building, Electric, Water
• Equipment maintenance + Server costs
• Profit

3.500.000 do i need to add anything else? Its not 500k we’re talking about but 3.5mil………… this is just sad excuses

250 (ish) employees.
$50k per year (just a number for demonstration).

$12,500,000 total salary cost.

Benefits, payroll taxes, etc can readily double that to $25,000,000 per year.

the 500k boxes you mention as being enough, at $60 each, equates to $30,000,000. A touch over one year of salary costs.

The game was in development for 5+ years.
——————————————————————————————

And that doesn’t even cover the costs of things like equipment (were they supposed to operate the game on abacuses ?). Electricity. Water. Property costs. Etc.

For a game to be in development for 5+ years it has many missing things. Sad excuse

I am making no excuses. The individual I quoted seemed to be claiming that 500k boxes was sufficient funding. I pointed out that such would barely cover payroll expenses for one year, let alone all of the other costs associate with running a business. Every game is missing many things. WoW has been in a state of continuous development for over a decade now and is still missing many things.

This. People are spoiled and used to 5+ year old games however and assume that when a new game comes out that that game has EVERYTHING the old game did. Nope. Not happening, never will.

WoW was made in 2003 Guild Wars 2012 im sorry but tech is higher and they should have all those futures wildstar has LFG in BETA it has duelign IN BETA it has trading in BETA all those futures

Face it Anet just messed up.

Talk is cheap because supply exceeds demand.

Sleuth.7964:

Direksone.3867:

Ashen.2907:

Sleuth.7964:

Ashen.2907:

Nuka Cola.8520:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Meglobob.8620:

Casuals spend the most $ on gems because they having paying jobs.

Hardcore players or players who put the hours in use gold to buy gems.

Without casuals no GW2.

how could this be true is the game sold 3.5 mil? where did that money went to?

• Recuperating costs of developing the game
• Wages
• Bills – Building, Electric, Water
• Equipment maintenance + Server costs
• Profit

3.500.000 do i need to add anything else? Its not 500k we’re talking about but 3.5mil………… this is just sad excuses

250 (ish) employees.
$50k per year (just a number for demonstration).

$12,500,000 total salary cost.

Benefits, payroll taxes, etc can readily double that to $25,000,000 per year.

the 500k boxes you mention as being enough, at $60 each, equates to $30,000,000. A touch over one year of salary costs.

The game was in development for 5+ years.
——————————————————————————————

And that doesn’t even cover the costs of things like equipment (were they supposed to operate the game on abacuses ?). Electricity. Water. Property costs. Etc.

For a game to be in development for 5+ years it has many missing things. Sad excuse

I am making no excuses. The individual I quoted seemed to be claiming that 500k boxes was sufficient funding. I pointed out that such would barely cover payroll expenses for one year, let alone all of the other costs associate with running a business. Every game is missing many things. WoW has been in a state of continuous development for over a decade now and is still missing many things.

This. People are spoiled and used to 5+ year old games however and assume that when a new game comes out that that game has EVERYTHING the old game did. Nope. Not happening, never will.

WoW was made in 2003 Guild Wars 2012 im sorry but tech is higher and they should have all those futures wildstar has LFG in BETA it has duelign IN BETA it has trading in BETA all those futures

Face it Anet just messed up.

Not really as they’re not gamebreaking things. They don’t have trading in game probably because, as it has been brought up multiple times, for the gold sink. You can still send money and items over, a bit risky, but whatever. Also a LFG system requires a lot of work and whatnot. With gw2lfg.com it’s not really a necessity either anymore, but they’re working on it. About dueling: I don’t really care, probably fun, but also extremely messy and annoying if you could do so in cities so they’d have to make a seperate area. Again: little fun thing, but not anything gamechanging.

Anything else?

Sleuth.7964:

WoW was made in 2003 Guild Wars 2012 im sorry but tech is higher and they should have all those futures wildstar has LFG in BETA it has duelign IN BETA it has trading in BETA all those futures

Face it Anet just messed up.

1) I agree that Anet messed up, but not as regards to this specific point.

2) WoW was made in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006…2012, 2013. It is still being made today…that is what the, “continuously in development,” part of my post meant…and yet WoW does not have features that GW2 does.

3) Good to hear about those features in Wildstar’s BETA. GW2 has all of the ones you mention except an official LFG tool. Once Wildstar launches lets see if it has every feature possible, let alone every feature included in GW2 (I am willing to bet that it will not).

Ashen.2907:

Sleuth.7964:

WoW was made in 2003 Guild Wars 2012 im sorry but tech is higher and they should have all those futures wildstar has LFG in BETA it has duelign IN BETA it has trading in BETA all those futures

Face it Anet just messed up.

1) I agree that Anet messed up, but not as regards to this specific point.

2) WoW was made in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006…2012, 2013. It is still being made today…that is what the, “continuously in development,” part of my post meant…and yet WoW does not have features that GW2 does.

3) Good to hear about those features in Wildstar’s BETA. GW2 has all of the ones you mention except an official LFG tool. Once Wildstar launches lets see if it has every feature possible, let alone every feature included in GW2 (I am willing to bet that it will not).

Yea but you’re wrong Ashen. See the point you’re missing here is that it’s about content he likes. He doesn’t care about anything else, you silly git!

I don’t want to be seen as jumping on Nuka Cola, but yeah, selling 3.5 million boxes for $50 may sound like a lot of money, but in the world of big business (of which AAA game development is one), that’s actually not that much money. I work for a small-med size software development company. Our annual turnover is somewhere in the range of 3 – 4 million dollars. Yet after paying out salaries, benefits, taxes, utility bills, share dividends and the like, our annual profit is only around $100k. Maybe up to twice or three times that if we had a good year.

It costs a LOT of money to run a business. The amount ANet made from original game sales was probably only just enough to cover development expenses and make a bit of profit, enough to convince NCSoft and investors to keep Guild Wars 2 going.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Diviner.7405:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Diviner.7405:

So I never really understood this logic.

Why cater to casuals?

I have heard claims and claims that there is a larger casual base than a hardcore base…. but is this really true?

Now I might be wrong here, but I would imagine casuals are the people more likely to move from game to game after 1 month or so then a hardcore player.

So what I see Guild Wars 2 doing is:
Most casuals move on to other games in 1 month or so no matter what you add to the game. It is just their nature.

At the same time, hardcore players are alienated and leave.

So the outcome is that you are losing on both sides. Would it not be better to keep the hardcore fan-base, so you are at least winning on 1 side?

Maybe Im missing something here…. hmmmm

Yes, you’re missing something. You’re making assumptions with no facts to base them on.

My assumptions are based on my years of gaming and stuff posted in this very forum. While these could not be facts necessarily, they are merely observations that I have seen demonstrated which seem to be aligned with the truth.

I could say that you have no facts to disprove my assumptions, but that may be a little convenient for me, so I will try not to take that cope out, but we will see.

If your assumptions are correct, why do most MMO developers cater to a demographic that you say leaves after a month? Perhaps they know something you don’t?

I was thinking the same thing. What is the biggest difference between WoW and the MMOs before it, what was it about WoW that made it so they topped out at 12 Million subscribers, and had 24+Million players in its history? WoW was the first casual friendly MMO.

Guild Wars 2 bring in ~$9 Million per month in sales, pretty dang good for an MMO that caters to casuals that some people think move on after a month.

Ashen.2907:

Nuka Cola.8520:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Meglobob.8620:

Casuals spend the most $ on gems because they having paying jobs.

Hardcore players or players who put the hours in use gold to buy gems.

Without casuals no GW2.

how could this be true is the game sold 3.5 mil? where did that money went to?

• Recuperating costs of developing the game
• Wages
• Bills – Building, Electric, Water
• Equipment maintenance + Server costs
• Profit

3.500.000 do i need to add anything else? Its not 500k we’re talking about but 3.5mil………… this is just sad excuses

250 (ish) employees.
$50k per year (just a number for demonstration).

$12,500,000 total salary cost.

Benefits, payroll taxes, etc can readily double that to $25,000,000 per year.

the 500k boxes you mention as being enough, at $60 each, equates to $30,000,000. A touch over one year of salary costs.

The game was in development for 5+ years.
——————————————————————————————

And that doesn’t even cover the costs of things like equipment (were they supposed to operate the game on abacuses ?). Electricity. Water. Property costs. Etc.

Trust me $50K is less than the starting salary. try at least $65K + don’t forget benefits like health insurance and such. They’re paying 100K+ for their people. I work in the industry in the near SF so I have a good idea what they are paying. Plus I talked to them at GDC.

Ashen.2907:

Sleuth.7964:

WoW was made in 2003 Guild Wars 2012 im sorry but tech is higher and they should have all those futures wildstar has LFG in BETA it has duelign IN BETA it has trading in BETA all those futures

Face it Anet just messed up.

1) I agree that Anet messed up, but not as regards to this specific point.

2) WoW was made in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006…2012, 2013. It is still being made today…that is what the, “continuously in development,” part of my post meant…and yet WoW does not have features that GW2 does.

3) Good to hear about those features in Wildstar’s BETA. GW2 has all of the ones you mention except an official LFG tool. Once Wildstar launches lets see if it has every feature possible, let alone every feature included in GW2 (I am willing to bet that it will not).

WoW was released in 2004. It’s only competition was EQ. It had timing and lessons learned from EQ on it’s side.

DarcShriek.5829:

Trust me $50K is less than the starting salary. try at least $65K + don’t forget benefits like health insurance and such. They’re paying 100K+ for their people. I work in the industry in the near SF so I have a good idea what they are paying. Plus I talked to them at GDC.

Yeah, I mentioned the cost of benefits and payroll taxes. I used 50k because it was a nice round number for demonstrating the huge cost of employing that many highly educated people in the U.S.

DarcShriek.5829:

WoW was released in 2004. It’s only competition was EQ. It had timing and lessons learned from EQ on it’s side.

Yes.

The point of the post you quoted was that WoW is still in development now, and that despite ongoing development for a decade now it still does not have every possible game feature.

Guild Wars 2 brought in $25Million in sales in the last 3 months, going by the quarterly, after all expenses and taxes, that is ~$6-7 Million in profits in 3 months.

Financially the game is doing great.

eisberg.2379:

Guild Wars 2 brought in $25Million in sales in the last 3 months, going by the quarterly, after all expenses and taxes, that is ~$6-7 Million in profits in 3 months.

Financially the game is doing great.

I don’t see as many GW2 is dying posts anymore. They always make me laugh.

So…which definition of “casual” vs “hardcore” are we using here?
Hours invested each week? Level challenge wanted or capable of being done? how quickly they do content? see it as a relaxing hobby or something competitive? amount of money spent? Ect

I don’t know why there is an assumption that people who play casually are fickle with their games and don’t support them. Most of the market is “casual”.

Ideally you should have some content for different types of players (so long as they can exist in the same game without conflicting obviously, you can’t do everything)

DarcShriek.5829:

eisberg.2379:

Guild Wars 2 brought in $25Million in sales in the last 3 months, going by the quarterly, after all expenses and taxes, that is ~$6-7 Million in profits in 3 months.

Financially the game is doing great.

I don’t see as many GW2 is dying posts anymore. They always make me laugh.

if this game is doing so great then where the hell is the content PERMANENT content.

OP, I think casuals are less likely to move from game to game. Anet made a huge change when they introduced ascended gear back in November. A bunch of people got kitten ed off and left. What percentage of those people would you consider casual.

Think in terms of a bell curve…because almost everything is a bell curve. Averages of the center are always greater than averages at any extreme. There are tons of really skilled atheletes in the world and tons of people are are horrible at a given sport, but most people, by definition, are in the middle.

Casual gamers aren’t necessary gamers that go from game to game, because casual gamers often have less time. They don’t finish the content and say, oh, I have nothing to do, because they’re not finished with the content. They don’t leave the game with unfinished content necessarily, because if you only have time for one game and you haven’t done everything you want to do in it, why pay money for another game.

See if you’re a hard core gamer you want to play everything…or try all the new cool stuff. But if you’re a casual gamer, you’re as likely to find a game you like and stick with it. There’s no real pressure to move to the next game.

You’re not heavily vested in balance…you’re not farming and worried about DR, because you’re casual. How many casual people ever hit DR?

Most people the play MMOs are casual, because most people don’t have the competitive drive to compete with millions of people.

It doesn’t mean they’re bad players. But they’re certainly less likely to get offended at a change to the game design, or worry about balance overly much…because their attitude is casual.

And it’s much harder for casual players to burn out as well.

Sleuth.7964:

DarcShriek.5829:

eisberg.2379:

Guild Wars 2 brought in $25Million in sales in the last 3 months, going by the quarterly, after all expenses and taxes, that is ~$6-7 Million in profits in 3 months.

Financially the game is doing great.

I don’t see as many GW2 is dying posts anymore. They always make me laugh.

if this game is doing so great then where the hell is the content PERMANENT content.

Anet is more interested in doing the Living Story. You may not like it, but I sure have been loving it. Just because they have not made much permanent content, doesn’t mean the game isn’t doing great, it just means they are more interested in doing their living story system.

Sleuth.7964:

DarcShriek.5829:

eisberg.2379:

Guild Wars 2 brought in $25Million in sales in the last 3 months, going by the quarterly, after all expenses and taxes, that is ~$6-7 Million in profits in 3 months.

Financially the game is doing great.

I don’t see as many GW2 is dying posts anymore. They always make me laugh.

if this game is doing so great then where the hell is the content PERMANENT content.

Arguably if you’re doing badly you’d want ALL your content to be permanent, because you don’t want to keep making stuff. Making stuff costs money. Having four teams working on 2 week release schedule costs money. You can’t afford to do that if you’re not doing well.

In fact, many MMOs when they are doing badly, introduce an expansion (which is all permanent content) to get some money back into their coffers. Apparently Guild Wars 2 is doing well without having to have that permanent content.

That said some content is always permanent. For example the current invasions won’t be leaving the game when the event ends (though they will be less frequent).

Sleuth.7964:

if this game is doing so great then where the hell is the content PERMANENT content.

If <insert name of successful game here> is doing well where the hell are the Living Story additions ?

Vayne.8563

That said some content is always permanent. For example the current invasions won’t be leaving the game when the event ends (though they will be less frequent).

Ironically the invasions are one part of the content I would prefer not to be permanent. XD At least, not in their current form. I’d love it if Twisted minions (and to a lesser extent, Aetherblades and Molten Alliance) remained foes we could challenge permanently, but they should be available only through specific means, such as a “Flashback” version of a dungeon accessible through talking to a Historian NPC. If the invasions are here to stay permanently, even at a greatly reduced frequency, then we haven’t really changed the world at all; we’ve never really defeated Scarlet. She’s just become another Dynamic Event villain that we beat up on a regular basis like the Dragon Champions.

Zaxares.5419:

Vayne.8563

That said some content is always permanent. For example the current invasions won’t be leaving the game when the event ends (though they will be less frequent).

Ironically the invasions are one part of the content I would prefer not to be permanent. XD At least, not in their current form. I’d love it if Twisted minions (and to a lesser extent, Aetherblades and Molten Alliance) remained foes we could challenge permanently, but they should be available only through specific means, such as a “Flashback” version of a dungeon accessible through talking to a Historian NPC. If the invasions are here to stay permanently, even at a greatly reduced frequency, then we haven’t really changed the world at all; we’ve never really defeated Scarlet. She’s just become another Dynamic Event villain that we beat up on a regular basis like the Dragon Champions.

See I disagree with this. It’s sort of like saying that people dont’ fight wars continually down through the centuries. I mean just because a battle is over doesn’t mean it’s over permanently.

It also doesn’t mean down the road the invasions won’t change and evolve.

Put it another way. Scarlet is essentially the head of a terrorist organization. The US war on terrorism isn’t over just because some terrorists have been killed or captured. The invasion staying behind just means we haven’t beaten Scarlet…yet.

But we don’t know what the future will bring. We had rifts with the molten alliance opening for a couple of months, and then they went away.

There’s no reason a living world has to change every two weeks.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Meglobob.8620:

Casuals spend the most $ on gems because they having paying jobs.

Hardcore players or players who put the hours in use gold to buy gems.

Without casuals no GW2.

how could this be true if the game sold 3.5 mil? where did that money went to?

I wouldn’t be surprised if most of that money went to operating costs. Do you know how many servers it takes to host 430k people? (that’s the peak users they had logged in) Not to mention making back all the money spent in their 5 years of production. Investors need a return.

Regarding the original question, “catering to casuals” is what most games that want to make decent money. And ‘casual’ gamers are the majority of gamers, even if they aren’t the loudest forum speakers.

Businesses go where the money is. ArenaNet is a company that needs to NOT go belly up, so I can keep enjoying this awesome game.

-PM

EDIT: “servers” doesn’t mean the servers you log into. A literal server is the individual computer that is networked to hundreds of other computers to provide the “server” you see at login.

Diviner.7405:

So I never really understood this logic.

Why cater to casuals?

I have heard claims and claims that there is a larger casual base than a hardcore base…. but is this really true?

Simple mathematics can prove this beyond reasonable doubt.

First, we must acknowledge the playerbase does no longer consist merely of kids and nerds like it did back when I was a nerdy kid. Nowadays, those kids are young adults on the track of making something of their life.

Secondly, it’s important to define what the word Hardcore means. To me, it means playing at least 5 hours a day on a 6 days a week basis minimum. A casual is defined as someone with less than 2 hours to play on any given day. Anyone between is … between.

Third. When we take young adults and assume for sake of argument that everyone, casual or hardcore, has a job to pay for their hobbies, it’s very clear that one group simply can’t exist.

Conclusion #1: from the facts it’s evident that casuals are the largest group by default, because having a job, family, friends or other hobbies directly impacts the ability to be hardcore. At most, those people could be willing to be hardcore, but not really. To me, three hours in a day is a luxury that only happens when my girlfriend is not home.

Conclusion #2: Casuals usually have a job because that’s what forces them to be casual, yet they want to make the most of their hobby. Much like a guy who only bikes twice a year yet has a 2000 euro racebike, a casual will spend a lot of money on his favourite hobby … gaming.

That adds up to the double fact that not only are casuals the largest market by far, but they do have more money to spend on gaming, are willing to spend more money on gaming. Therefor, even with an 80% casual public (low estimate), it’s very likely to have casuals generate 90% of your revenue.

I do want to state that hardcore gamers with jobs and partners exists, but they are a very big exception.

Now I might be wrong here, but I would imagine casuals are the people more likely to move from game to game after 1 month or so then a hardcore player.

You’re wrong. Hardcores were done with GW2 after a few weeks. They had legendaries and practically every achievement. Casuals are still trying to get their stuff. In the end, casuals are the public you can most easily keep because they don’t devour content like that.

So what I see Guild Wars 2 doing is:
Most casuals move on to other games in 1 month or so no matter what you add to the game. It is just their nature.

That’s only the nature of casuals in games that cater to hardcore. For a game like GW2 this definitively doesn’t fly.

So the outcome is that you are losing on both sides. Would it not be better to keep the hardcore fan-base, so you are at least winning on 1 side?

Maybe Im missing something here…. hmmmm

From my perspective, it’s easier to keep casuals. They’re the largest market AND they have more disposable income per capita. As such it’s probably the best to be winning on the casual side.

Feel free to comment, but I’m almost sure this is the correct way to do business in the current time where the average age of gamers is 32(!). Try catering to such an average age with hardcore content ….

Diviner.7405:

So I never really understood this logic.

Why cater to casuals?

I have heard claims and claims that there is a larger casual base than a hardcore base…. but is this really true?

Now I might be wrong here, but I would imagine casuals are the people more likely to move from game to game after 1 month or so then a hardcore player.

So what I see Guild Wars 2 doing is:
Most casuals move on to other games in 1 month or so no matter what you add to the game. It is just their nature.

At the same time, hardcore players are alienated and leave.

So the outcome is that you are losing on both sides. Would it not be better to keep the hardcore fan-base, so you are at least winning on 1 side?

Maybe Im missing something here…. hmmmm

Perhaps “casual” vs “hardcore” — if not simply trolling — is one of the most defective market segmentations I’ve ever seen. How about splitting it along 8 or 9 dimensions:

1. Time available
2. Is the time consistent, or is it unpredictable and frequently interrupted
3. On the Bartle scale, is the player an achiever, explorer, socializer, or killer (note this is not black and white, each person is on a grey scale (think 1 to 100) of each)
4. Does the person tend to blow through content without looking, or take time and “smell the roses”
5. Is the player willing to do content they consider unpleasant to achieve a goal
6. Does the player value community and collaboration, or is it everyone for themselves
7. What kind of content does the player like? Traditional MMO? Nintendo? Combat? Jump puzzles? New zones? New raid bosses?
8. Player skill, along probably 4 axes (speccing/gearing, movement in combat, actions other than movement in combat, situational awareness in combat)

Oh, yes, and for ArenaNet’s benefit

9. Willingness to get out a credit card either for fluff or to avoid having to grind gold

:)

Vayne.8563:

Sleuth.7964:

DarcShriek.5829:

eisberg.2379:

Guild Wars 2 brought in $25Million in sales in the last 3 months, going by the quarterly, after all expenses and taxes, that is ~$6-7 Million in profits in 3 months.

Financially the game is doing great.

I don’t see as many GW2 is dying posts anymore. They always make me laugh.

if this game is doing so great then where the hell is the content PERMANENT content.

Arguably if you’re doing badly you’d want ALL your content to be permanent, because you don’t want to keep making stuff. Making stuff costs money. Having four teams working on 2 week release schedule costs money. You can’t afford to do that if you’re not doing well.

In fact, many MMOs when they are doing badly, introduce an expansion (which is all permanent content) to get some money back into their coffers. Apparently Guild Wars 2 is doing well without having to have that permanent content.

That said some content is always permanent. For example the current invasions won’t be leaving the game when the event ends (though they will be less frequent).

Sigh there is just no convincing people like you

Sleuth.7964:

Vayne.8563:

Sleuth.7964:

DarcShriek.5829:

eisberg.2379:

Guild Wars 2 brought in $25Million in sales in the last 3 months, going by the quarterly, after all expenses and taxes, that is ~$6-7 Million in profits in 3 months.

Financially the game is doing great.

I don’t see as many GW2 is dying posts anymore. They always make me laugh.

if this game is doing so great then where the hell is the content PERMANENT content.

Arguably if you’re doing badly you’d want ALL your content to be permanent, because you don’t want to keep making stuff. Making stuff costs money. Having four teams working on 2 week release schedule costs money. You can’t afford to do that if you’re not doing well.

In fact, many MMOs when they are doing badly, introduce an expansion (which is all permanent content) to get some money back into their coffers. Apparently Guild Wars 2 is doing well without having to have that permanent content.

That said some content is always permanent. For example the current invasions won’t be leaving the game when the event ends (though they will be less frequent).

Sigh there is just no convincing people like you

Maybe that’s because Vayne is correct. Expansions are times of huge press, lots of spike income. MMOs time these for a moment when their game does badly or to counter another game (Mists of Pandaria specifically countered GW2). The fact that GW2 doesn’t need an expansion currently proves beyond reasonable doubt it’s doing extremely well.

How about the opposite. There’s no convincing people like you.

The OP suggested that it’s the casual’s natureto move on from game to game, which i agree.
But back to the good old days in GW1, what anet achieve is those casual will eventually come back.

marnick.4305:

Diviner.7405:

So I never really understood this logic.

Why cater to casuals?

I have heard claims and claims that there is a larger casual base than a hardcore base…. but is this really true?

Simple mathematics can prove this beyond reasonable doubt.

First, we must acknowledge the playerbase does no longer consist merely of kids and nerds like it did back when I was a nerdy kid. Nowadays, those kids are young adults on the track of making something of their life.

Secondly, it’s important to define what the word Hardcore means. To me, it means playing at least 5 hours a day on a 6 days a week basis minimum. A casual is defined as someone with less than 2 hours to play on any given day. Anyone between is … between.

Third. When we take young adults and assume for sake of argument that everyone, casual or hardcore, has a job to pay for their hobbies, it’s very clear that one group simply can’t exist.

Conclusion #1: from the facts it’s evident that casuals are the largest group by default, because having a job, family, friends or other hobbies directly impacts the ability to be hardcore. At most, those people could be willing to be hardcore, but not really. To me, three hours in a day is a luxury that only happens when my girlfriend is not home.

Conclusion #2: Casuals usually have a job because that’s what forces them to be casual, yet they want to make the most of their hobby. Much like a guy who only bikes twice a year yet has a 2000 euro racebike, a casual will spend a lot of money on his favourite hobby … gaming.

That adds up to the double fact that not only are casuals the largest market by far, but they do have more money to spend on gaming, are willing to spend more money on gaming. Therefor, even with an 80% casual public (low estimate), it’s very likely to have casuals generate 90% of your revenue.

I do want to state that hardcore gamers with jobs and partners exists, but they are a very big exception.

Now I might be wrong here, but I would imagine casuals are the people more likely to move from game to game after 1 month or so then a hardcore player.

You’re wrong. Hardcores were done with GW2 after a few weeks. They had legendaries and practically every achievement. Casuals are still trying to get their stuff. In the end, casuals are the public you can most easily keep because they don’t devour content like that.

So what I see Guild Wars 2 doing is:
Most casuals move on to other games in 1 month or so no matter what you add to the game. It is just their nature.

That’s only the nature of casuals in games that cater to hardcore. For a game like GW2 this definitively doesn’t fly.

So the outcome is that you are losing on both sides. Would it not be better to keep the hardcore fan-base, so you are at least winning on 1 side?

Maybe Im missing something here…. hmmmm

From my perspective, it’s easier to keep casuals. They’re the largest market AND they have more disposable income per capita. As such it’s probably the best to be winning on the casual side.

Feel free to comment, but I’m almost sure this is the correct way to do business in the current time where the average age of gamers is 32(!). Try catering to such an average age with hardcore content ….

Okay let me ask you this its a yes or no question

Should Guild Wars 2 introduce more hard content for hardcore players?

The casual vs hardcore “traditional” definition is too shallow to help describe today’s MMO playerbase.

It has evolved past that simple definition.

bewhatever did a good job pointing out the sliding scale matrix of the current MMO players.

As I said in an earlier post, the definition of players is in part based on time, approach, values, skill.

Mix that with profiles from the Bartle test, throw in Mastery, Relatedness, Autonomy, add a healthy dose of Completionist, etcetera and you end up with a complex picture.

I am an explorer/achiever/socializer, fit all 3 of Mastery/Relatedness/Autonomy, am hardcore, and casual.

There are things I enjoy about this game. There are things I detest and won’t do.

At release until about January, this game was a very good fit. Living Stories and the current direction have me worried.