Why do people complain about "pay to win"
1 2
Because people are cheap, Like really if you spent at least 50 hours in HOT, with story/raids/events, doing some achievement hunting etc etc. Then you got every dollar you spent worthwhile. Whenever I want a game I just think can I get an enjoyable $1 per hour? If so or close to it which i find acceptable (obviously a 30 hour can can still be very enjoyable) then I think it’s very worthwhile.
Here we go again, people beating on a topic that was long dead.
I think worthwhile content isn’t just what content you do. I got my money’s worth out of the base game during the 2 years I played WvW until they ruined it. Discovering something, being needed either with our group or siege or taking down a nicely fortified structure, it was fun, it was content that I wanted to do again. My base point of worthwhile is “Is this something I would want to do again because I enjoyed it?” Note I did not say because the rewards were great or to get some RNG skin. That being said, I feel like I haven’t gotten my money’s worth from HoT. It just feels like a never ending grind, gold sink, and I have to schedule my day around it just trying to get into a map, and If I miss out on the window, I have to wait an entire day to try again since I already scheduled that day. (I’m looking at you DS)
Lyscir – Main Engi
[????] – HoD
[????] – HoD
The problem (sensible) people had with paying $50 for HoT was the high price for the low amount of content.
It’s whether something is worth it or not, regardless if it’s $5, $50, or $500.
I really doubt it’s about being able to afford it or not; since if that’s the issue, one probably shouldn’t be playing games at all.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards,
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
The problem (sensible) people had with paying $50 for HoT was the high price for the low amount of content.
I suppose that’s kind of fair for long standing players vs someone like me coming in fresh where all the content is new and part of the $50 I spent. Although have you played either of the last WoW expansion? Garbage. You want to talk about people not getting good bang for their buck…
It’s whether something is worth it or not, regardless if it’s $5, $50, or $500.
I really doubt it’s about being able to afford it or not; since if that’s the issue, one probably shouldn’t be playing games at all.
This.
Some women think it’s worth it to buy $500 purses. I don’t. I think anything above $50 is way too expensive for a purse. Because I don’t buy purses for their status symbols or as a fashion accessory. It’s something for me to carry my stuff in and throw around at the end of the day.
imo it was rather expensive content wise, but I was willing to pay it as I understood that I was also paying for the work they did then for the next expansion, what with them creating a new system of elite professions and Masteries that will be used from now on. Of course not everyone is going to be willing to do that, so that was part of the complaints.
Another part was how ANet shot themselves in the foot by putting in a new profession, which of course almost everyone wanted to at least try, and then was requiring all but the most expensive expansion price to put down an extra $10 for it to buy a new character slot if you didn’t have a spare one, increasing the price by that much. That upset a lot of people because it felt like double charging.
In addition, they charge new people who were getting the complete old game as well as the expansion the same price as getting the expansion only. Which again, I can see why because the game was 3 years old and they need to bring in new people and not throw up a price wall. It’s a matter of perception, a new person paying $X and getting so much more than an veteran paying $X and getting only the expansion means many people look at that and think it’s unfair.
All these points and probably others caused a fair amount of backlash against the pricing of the expansion, which hasn’t completely let up.
Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.
ANet may give it to you.
I remember I made a similar statement, OP but a few older more mature people talked about it regarding it’s not so much the $50/$100 price tag and being able to ‘afford’ it but actually what you GET in that; is it worth it to you as an individual?
For me at the time I didn’t think anything of it and bought the $100+ one and I was content, but now after all these months it really doesn’t seem like much.
Heck, we don’t even have legendary armor yet. No WvW balance/updates. We barely got any decent armor sets with the X-pac. Everything is locked behind a massive gold sink/grind which is utterly unappealing, along with the shaft to smaller WvW guilds to get their hands on upgrades to even USE in WvW.
At the time it felt overwhelming due to the sudden face-smash of ‘content’ after a LONG drought of content in general yet wait a few months after you’ve cleared what you can and you’ll realize it’s very little.
I can’t believe it’s been what, 6 months now? And they pumped out more gem store outfits + gliders than all the armors that came with HoT combined. That’s right – on release there were probably 1-3 gliders available… very soon AFTER people had cleared content etc they started releasing gliders etc. Exalted Glider is a fine example of something that SHOULD HAVE been implemented into the game on HoT launch as a rewarded item for the story or even for reaching an achievement… alas, no.
Oh well, maybe they will learn from their mistakes, who knows.
People who claim expansions are pay to win are simply misusing the term. The problem is people who weren’t there when the term was invented try to use the term literally. Unfortunately there are many terms in English you can’t take literally.
Pay to win was usually meant to denote games that offered microtransactions that provided power. If you can buy somethign that makes you more powerful, particularly if you cant’ earn it in game as well, it’s a pay to win game.
Expansions were never considered pay to win and I can’t think of any expansion in any MMORPG that didn’t increase the power of the game. Most games that comes through leveling.
If anything this game is less pay to win, since PvP is normalized here.
free content over the internet has spoiled everyone. one of the unforeseen due to progress.
Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE
I’m a little confused as to why so many people have an issue with spending $50-$75 for HoT.
Would you pay $50-$75 for a nice steak dinner?
I would.
Would you pay $50-$75 for a combo meal at McDonalds?
I wouldn’t.
Sometimes a product just isn’t worth its price to a given customer. Doesn’t mean that the customer is a cheapskate. Doesn’t make him a hater. Just makes him someone who decides what a given product is worth, or not worth, to him.
I’m a little confused as to why so many people have an issue with spending $50-$75 for HoT.
Would you pay $50-$75 for a nice steak dinner?
edit: id prob cook it myself if one person costs that much.
I would.Would you pay $50-$75 for a combo meal at McDonalds?
I wouldn’t.
Sometimes a product just isn’t worth its price to a given customer. Doesn’t mean that the customer is a cheapskate. Doesn’t make him a hater. Just makes him someone who decides what a given product is worth, or not worth, to him.
i would pay that much for 5 meals at a good place. not for one person. is everyone on the earth rich but me?
im bad at sarcasm
I’m a little confused as to why so many people have an issue with spending $50-$75 for HoT.
Would you pay $50-$75 for a nice steak dinner?
I would.
Would you pay $50-$75 for a combo meal at McDonalds?
I wouldn’t.
Sometimes a product just isn’t worth its price to a given customer. Doesn’t mean that the customer is a cheapskate. Doesn’t make him a hater. Just makes him someone who decides what a given product is worth, or not worth, to him.
Yeah its quite ridiculous that people always go “boohoo you’re poor!” when P2W aspects as brought up in games.
HoT isnt technically p2w over GW2 as you can still be usefull in PvP/WvW but its a pretty fine line… Elite specs are simply better. But its not bad.
To compare with BDO which is a f2p game changed into a b2p game with unchanged f2p mechanics and a f2p cashshop, it got an outfit that give you a clear advantage in PvP that cost you $30. That’s absolutely kittening ridiculous. Especially if you think the HoT price “wrong”. That’s ONE outfit for ONE character. Its not accountbound. Its soulbound. And that’s just the beginning of its cashshop…
GW2 cashshop is a joy in comparison. No force, no scummy things and the ability to convert gold<→gems. You want to use it.
And no, I’m not poor. I can easily afford that BDO costume (or everything in the GW2 shop) without even thinking. Its the principle of it. Its still kittening ridiculous.
I suppose that’s kind of fair for long standing players vs someone like me coming in fresh where all the content is new and part of the $50 I spent.
I guess that’s it for many people, they only see that they paid 50$/€ when the game released and have to spend another 50$/€ to get HoT. So they spent a total of 100 bucks where you only paid 50 for the same content. That’s all they care about.
They completely disregard the fact that they played the game for probably thousands of hours in that time, experienced a world that had yet to be explored and was not neatly documented in a wiki, got free content you will probably never see (looking at you, LS1), got hundreds of gold worth from the login rewards alone, could play dungeons while there were still people doing them…it seems like that is all completely worthless to them and they find it outrageous that they would ever have to pay for new content again. The greed is strong in some people…
I feel to have got full value out of my complaining about HoT. Sometimes it’s more fun than playing.
Pay To Moan is defo the future.
Ive never understood what pay to win means in an MMO.
What is it you are winning?
MMOs have no winners , ever.
As for HOT, no one is forced to buy it , like most other things in life.
If you think its too expensive then DONT BUY IT.
Its not rocket science.
If people are complaining about something being pay to win (and if they’re using that term correctly) then the price is irrelevant.
Pay to win means you get the best stuff, whether that’s equipment or skills or levels or whatever, by paying additional money for it rather than earning it by playing the game. It doesn’t matter how much it costs or how many people consider it affordable, the problem is that you’re basically paying to skip playing a game and still get the rewards as if you did.
Imagine if you’re in a football team (what kind of football is irrelevant for now), not a professional one, just you and a bunch of friends playing football for fun, but of course you still want to be good at it. Your team enters a tournament and you’re offered two choices – you play a series of matches to progress through to the final, or you pay an additional fee and you don’t have to show up for those qualifying matches, you’re guaranteed a place in the final.
That’s going to sound like a pretty crappy tournament no matter which choice you make. Either you pay extra to not play football, which defeats the point of forming you team or you don’t pay and you’ll put in all that time and effort just to find yourself competing against a team that didn’t have to earn their place and is still treated as if they’re just as good as you are.
That’s how pay to win games work. Imagine if someone could buy a WoW account and on day 1 buy a level 100 character with all the skills unlocked and buy a full set of equipment from the top tier raid (or whatever else is the best in the game). And Blizzard will throw in some exclusive mounts that are even faster and shinier than the ones you can get in-game, and a cape or something to show this person is one of their most valued customers, more so than those of you who have been paying a sub for months or years to earn that progress.
That’s an extreme example, but not far off how some of the worst pay to win games work. Realistically they’re going to charge a small fortune (literally hundreds of American dollars) for that, but even if it was only $20 it would be pay to win.
But for most games, GW2 included, it’s a lot less clear and more open to debate. HoT didn’t introduce any new tiers of equipment or new levels or anything like that, so we seem to be on safe ground. But it did introduce new ‘elite’ specialisations and some new stat combinations, and if you consider those to be better than anything available in the core game then I can see how you could argue HoT is pay to win (although you do also have to play to unlock them).
Personally I don’t think they’re better, just new and less familiar so they introduce new options and skills players don’t know how to counter in WvW and PvP. It was the same in GW1 every time they introduced new professions or skills, it took a while for people to adjust and in the meantime some people insisted they were pay-to-win.
Danielle Aurorel, Dear Dragon We Got Your Cookies [Nom], Desolation (EU).
“Life’s a journey, not a destination.”
“Life’s a journey, not a destination.”
The only way HoT is p2w is when it comes to pvp but that is where it ends. In a dungeon or fractal a f2p can do just as well as a b2p user.
The only way HoT is p2w is when it comes to pvp but that is where it ends. In a dungeon or fractal a f2p can do just as well as a b2p user.
That’s not correct for fractals. Without HoT your agony resistance stops at 100ish. With HoT 150ish. That’s a HUGE gap.
The only way HoT is p2w is when it comes to pvp but that is where it ends. In a dungeon or fractal a f2p can do just as well as a b2p user.
That’s not correct for fractals. Without HoT your agony resistance stops at 100ish. With HoT 150ish. That’s a HUGE gap.
But who plays fractals anyway?
It doesn’t “stop” at 100, but you need to craft much better infusions to be competitive, so.. still not p2w
It doesn’t “stop” at 100, but you need to craft much better infusions to be competitive, so.. still not p2w
sure … it’s possible to get at 130 AR with 3 of these:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/20_Agony_Infusion
…. but I don’t have 25k Gold, do you?
With the same effort you’re getting with HoT to 150 AR you’re getting without HoT to 100AR. With the expansion you’re missing out on 50AR and that’s gamebreaking at Fractals 90 and above. Because you’re getting agony for staying in the near of your allies. And when you’re missing out on 50AR … you’re dead.
(edited by emma.5967)
The only way HoT is p2w is when it comes to pvp but that is where it ends. In a dungeon or fractal a f2p can do just as well as a b2p user.
That’s not correct for fractals. Without HoT your agony resistance stops at 100ish. With HoT 150ish. That’s a HUGE gap.
Which has nothing to do with pay to win unless running high level fractals makes you more powerful. Are there even any rewards you can’t get from a 70th level fractal that you can get from a 100th level?
Vayne you are right, but the Elite Spec are pretty close to pay to win if you ask me.
Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD
Vayne you are right, but the Elite Spec are pretty close to pay to win if you ask me.
Okay I’ve said this many times and not a single person has been able to answer me.
Can you name ANY MMORPG, any at all, that isn’t pay to win if you count expansions. I ask this because I can’t. P2W was always mean to refer to cash shops, not expansions.
Take WoW as an example. WoW raises the level cap with every expansion. That is you become far more powerful each time an expansion comes out, including in PvP. This has been true in every MMO I’ve played.
Expansions are sold and people are expected to buy them to continue to playing the game, even in a subscription game.
Now in Guild Wars 2, there’s less P2W than any other MMO because they didn’t raise the level cap and you can still compete with some builds in PvP.
P2W was meant to denote games that sold power in the cash shop that you couldn’t get in game. It never covered an expansion to my knowledge.
If it did, even Guild Wars 1 was pay to win.
People who claim expansions are pay to win are simply misusing the term. The problem is people who weren’t there when the term was invented try to use the term literally. Unfortunately there are many terms in English you can’t take literally.
Pay to win was usually meant to denote games that offered microtransactions that provided power. If you can buy somethign that makes you more powerful, particularly if you cant’ earn it in game as well, it’s a pay to win game.
Expansions were never considered pay to win and I can’t think of any expansion in any MMORPG that didn’t increase the power of the game. Most games that comes through leveling.
If anything this game is less pay to win, since PvP is normalized here.
I think you misunderstand their use of pay to win, the elite specs have pretty much dominated every game-mode, there is no balance with elite specs and non-elite specs. If you don’t buy HoT you can’t compete in any part of the game.
People who claim expansions are pay to win are simply misusing the term. The problem is people who weren’t there when the term was invented try to use the term literally. Unfortunately there are many terms in English you can’t take literally.
Pay to win was usually meant to denote games that offered microtransactions that provided power. If you can buy somethign that makes you more powerful, particularly if you cant’ earn it in game as well, it’s a pay to win game.
Expansions were never considered pay to win and I can’t think of any expansion in any MMORPG that didn’t increase the power of the game. Most games that comes through leveling.
If anything this game is less pay to win, since PvP is normalized here.
I think you misunderstand their use of pay to win, the elite specs have pretty much dominated every game-mode, there is no balance with elite specs and non-elite specs. If you don’t buy HoT you can’t compete in any part of the game.
Completely irrelevant to what I said. Name ANY MMORPG that’s not pay to win by that defintion. WoW is pay to win. They’re all pay to win if you count expansions.
You are simply using the words literally and ignoring the meaning that was assigned to those words when they were first used.
If every single MMO is pay to win, then there’s nothing to talk about.
People who claim expansions are pay to win are simply misusing the term. The problem is people who weren’t there when the term was invented try to use the term literally. Unfortunately there are many terms in English you can’t take literally.
Pay to win was usually meant to denote games that offered microtransactions that provided power. If you can buy somethign that makes you more powerful, particularly if you cant’ earn it in game as well, it’s a pay to win game.
Expansions were never considered pay to win and I can’t think of any expansion in any MMORPG that didn’t increase the power of the game. Most games that comes through leveling.
If anything this game is less pay to win, since PvP is normalized here.
I think you misunderstand their use of pay to win, the elite specs have pretty much dominated every game-mode, there is no balance with elite specs and non-elite specs. If you don’t buy HoT you can’t compete in any part of the game.
Completely irrelevant to what I said. Name ANY MMORPG that’s not pay to win by that defintion. WoW is pay to win. They’re all pay to win if you count expansions.
You are simply using the words literally and ignoring the meaning that was assigned to those words when they were first used.
If every single MMO is pay to win, then there’s nothing to talk about.
um no, other MMOs aren’t pay to win by that definition. I’ve played WoW and didn’t get the next expansion, I stayed relevant in the content that came out prior to that expansion. I could still PvP at the previous max level and be competitive, I could still run all the same content and be good. You’re wrong and clearly have no clue what pay to win means or perhaps you are one of the people who enjoys pay to win, which is fine. But it shouldn’t be in this game.
People who claim expansions are pay to win are simply misusing the term. The problem is people who weren’t there when the term was invented try to use the term literally. Unfortunately there are many terms in English you can’t take literally.
Pay to win was usually meant to denote games that offered microtransactions that provided power. If you can buy somethign that makes you more powerful, particularly if you cant’ earn it in game as well, it’s a pay to win game.
Expansions were never considered pay to win and I can’t think of any expansion in any MMORPG that didn’t increase the power of the game. Most games that comes through leveling.
If anything this game is less pay to win, since PvP is normalized here.
I think you misunderstand their use of pay to win, the elite specs have pretty much dominated every game-mode, there is no balance with elite specs and non-elite specs. If you don’t buy HoT you can’t compete in any part of the game.
Completely irrelevant to what I said. Name ANY MMORPG that’s not pay to win by that defintion. WoW is pay to win. They’re all pay to win if you count expansions.
You are simply using the words literally and ignoring the meaning that was assigned to those words when they were first used.
If every single MMO is pay to win, then there’s nothing to talk about.
um no, other MMOs aren’t pay to win by that definition. I’ve played WoW and didn’t get the next expansion, I stayed relevant in the content that came out prior to that expansion. I could still PvP at the previous max level and be competitive, I could still run all the same content and be good. You’re wrong and clearly have no clue what pay to win means or perhaps you are one of the people who enjoys pay to win, which is fine. But it shouldn’t be in this game.
Are you saying that when you PvP in WoW gear doesn’t matter, and you can be 10 levels lower and still beat guys 10 levels higher than you?
People who claim expansions are pay to win are simply misusing the term. The problem is people who weren’t there when the term was invented try to use the term literally. Unfortunately there are many terms in English you can’t take literally.
Pay to win was usually meant to denote games that offered microtransactions that provided power. If you can buy somethign that makes you more powerful, particularly if you cant’ earn it in game as well, it’s a pay to win game.
Expansions were never considered pay to win and I can’t think of any expansion in any MMORPG that didn’t increase the power of the game. Most games that comes through leveling.
If anything this game is less pay to win, since PvP is normalized here.
I think you misunderstand their use of pay to win, the elite specs have pretty much dominated every game-mode, there is no balance with elite specs and non-elite specs. If you don’t buy HoT you can’t compete in any part of the game.
Completely irrelevant to what I said. Name ANY MMORPG that’s not pay to win by that defintion. WoW is pay to win. They’re all pay to win if you count expansions.
You are simply using the words literally and ignoring the meaning that was assigned to those words when they were first used.
If every single MMO is pay to win, then there’s nothing to talk about.
um no, other MMOs aren’t pay to win by that definition. I’ve played WoW and didn’t get the next expansion, I stayed relevant in the content that came out prior to that expansion. I could still PvP at the previous max level and be competitive, I could still run all the same content and be good. You’re wrong and clearly have no clue what pay to win means or perhaps you are one of the people who enjoys pay to win, which is fine. But it shouldn’t be in this game.
Are you saying that when you PvP in WoW gear doesn’t matter, and you can be 10 levels lower and still beat guys 10 levels higher than you?
I am saying that in WoW if I am level 70 and a new expansion comes out I can continue playing at level 70 with other people at level 70 and not have to worry about having to pay for an expansion to enjoy content I already own.
People who claim expansions are pay to win are simply misusing the term. The problem is people who weren’t there when the term was invented try to use the term literally. Unfortunately there are many terms in English you can’t take literally.
Pay to win was usually meant to denote games that offered microtransactions that provided power. If you can buy somethign that makes you more powerful, particularly if you cant’ earn it in game as well, it’s a pay to win game.
Expansions were never considered pay to win and I can’t think of any expansion in any MMORPG that didn’t increase the power of the game. Most games that comes through leveling.
If anything this game is less pay to win, since PvP is normalized here.
I think you misunderstand their use of pay to win, the elite specs have pretty much dominated every game-mode, there is no balance with elite specs and non-elite specs. If you don’t buy HoT you can’t compete in any part of the game.
Completely irrelevant to what I said. Name ANY MMORPG that’s not pay to win by that defintion. WoW is pay to win. They’re all pay to win if you count expansions.
You are simply using the words literally and ignoring the meaning that was assigned to those words when they were first used.
If every single MMO is pay to win, then there’s nothing to talk about.
um no, other MMOs aren’t pay to win by that definition. I’ve played WoW and didn’t get the next expansion, I stayed relevant in the content that came out prior to that expansion. I could still PvP at the previous max level and be competitive, I could still run all the same content and be good. You’re wrong and clearly have no clue what pay to win means or perhaps you are one of the people who enjoys pay to win, which is fine. But it shouldn’t be in this game.
Are you saying that when you PvP in WoW gear doesn’t matter, and you can be 10 levels lower and still beat guys 10 levels higher than you?
I am saying that in WoW if I am level 70 and a new expansion comes out I can continue playing at level 70 with other people at level 70 and not have to worry about having to pay for an expansion to enjoy content I already own.
Okay hypthetical.
You’re level 70 in WoW. You can still fight other level 70s. But at any time a guy with a level 80 can come by on a PvP server and waste you, am I correct?
You’re saying because WOW raised the level cap and this game didn’t, it’s not pay to win. In WoW, if someone bought the expansion, and you didn’t and they leveled their character, they would kill you, pretty much automatically. Much more automatically then they did here. They paid for the expansion and they could win. That’s how you’re using the definition. You can’t have it both ways.
Either people who buy the expansion are more powerful than you are or they’re not.
The power different in WoW was much greater. Here if you’re better, you really can win. That would be a lot harder in WoW, particularly once those guys geared up.
I repeat, P2W was never about expansions. It never referred to expansions. Five years ago, no one ever claimed an expansion was pay to win because people were more powerful.
The term was invented to differentation games like Runes of Magic, or Maple Story from legit games. For example, in Black Desert right now, there are outfits in the store you can by for $29 bucks. Some give you stats. Some allow you to hide your name tag from enemies. That would be a classic example of pay to win.
Buying power through microtransactions, not expansions.
People who claim expansions are pay to win are simply misusing the term. The problem is people who weren’t there when the term was invented try to use the term literally. Unfortunately there are many terms in English you can’t take literally.
Pay to win was usually meant to denote games that offered microtransactions that provided power. If you can buy somethign that makes you more powerful, particularly if you cant’ earn it in game as well, it’s a pay to win game.
Expansions were never considered pay to win and I can’t think of any expansion in any MMORPG that didn’t increase the power of the game. Most games that comes through leveling.
If anything this game is less pay to win, since PvP is normalized here.
I think you misunderstand their use of pay to win, the elite specs have pretty much dominated every game-mode, there is no balance with elite specs and non-elite specs. If you don’t buy HoT you can’t compete in any part of the game.
Completely irrelevant to what I said. Name ANY MMORPG that’s not pay to win by that defintion. WoW is pay to win. They’re all pay to win if you count expansions.
You are simply using the words literally and ignoring the meaning that was assigned to those words when they were first used.
If every single MMO is pay to win, then there’s nothing to talk about.
um no, other MMOs aren’t pay to win by that definition. I’ve played WoW and didn’t get the next expansion, I stayed relevant in the content that came out prior to that expansion. I could still PvP at the previous max level and be competitive, I could still run all the same content and be good. You’re wrong and clearly have no clue what pay to win means or perhaps you are one of the people who enjoys pay to win, which is fine. But it shouldn’t be in this game.
Are you saying that when you PvP in WoW gear doesn’t matter, and you can be 10 levels lower and still beat guys 10 levels higher than you?
I am saying that in WoW if I am level 70 and a new expansion comes out I can continue playing at level 70 with other people at level 70 and not have to worry about having to pay for an expansion to enjoy content I already own.
Okay hypthetical.
You’re level 70 in WoW. You can still fight other level 70s. But at any time a guy with a level 80 can come by on a PvP server and waste you, am I correct?
You’re saying because WOW raised the level cap and this game didn’t, it’s not pay to win. In WoW, if someone bought the expansion, and you didn’t and they leveled their character, they would kill you, pretty much automatically. Much more automatically then they did here. They paid for the expansion and they could win. That’s how you’re using the definition. You can’t have it both ways.
Either people who buy the expansion are more powerful than you are or they’re not.
The power different in WoW was much greater. Here if you’re better, you really can win. That would be a lot harder in WoW, particularly once those guys geared up.
I repeat, P2W was never about expansions. It never referred to expansions. Five years ago, no one ever claimed an expansion was pay to win because people were more powerful.
The term was invented to differentation games like Runes of Magic, or Maple Story from legit games. For example, in Black Desert right now, there are outfits in the store you can by for $29 bucks. Some give you stats. Some allow you to hide your name tag from enemies. That would be a classic example of pay to win.
Buying power through microtransactions, not expansions.
Incorrect, GW2 doesn’t have PvP servers, you can’t compare apples to oranges. A fair comparison would be GW2 vs WoWs PvE servers.
More importantly, no the term was invented when 3 words were put together into a sentence and they make a coherent statement of paying to win or winning by payment.
People who claim expansions are pay to win are simply misusing the term. The problem is people who weren’t there when the term was invented try to use the term literally. Unfortunately there are many terms in English you can’t take literally.
Pay to win was usually meant to denote games that offered microtransactions that provided power. If you can buy somethign that makes you more powerful, particularly if you cant’ earn it in game as well, it’s a pay to win game.
Expansions were never considered pay to win and I can’t think of any expansion in any MMORPG that didn’t increase the power of the game. Most games that comes through leveling.
If anything this game is less pay to win, since PvP is normalized here.
I think you misunderstand their use of pay to win, the elite specs have pretty much dominated every game-mode, there is no balance with elite specs and non-elite specs. If you don’t buy HoT you can’t compete in any part of the game.
Completely irrelevant to what I said. Name ANY MMORPG that’s not pay to win by that defintion. WoW is pay to win. They’re all pay to win if you count expansions.
You are simply using the words literally and ignoring the meaning that was assigned to those words when they were first used.
If every single MMO is pay to win, then there’s nothing to talk about.
um no, other MMOs aren’t pay to win by that definition. I’ve played WoW and didn’t get the next expansion, I stayed relevant in the content that came out prior to that expansion. I could still PvP at the previous max level and be competitive, I could still run all the same content and be good. You’re wrong and clearly have no clue what pay to win means or perhaps you are one of the people who enjoys pay to win, which is fine. But it shouldn’t be in this game.
Are you saying that when you PvP in WoW gear doesn’t matter, and you can be 10 levels lower and still beat guys 10 levels higher than you?
I am saying that in WoW if I am level 70 and a new expansion comes out I can continue playing at level 70 with other people at level 70 and not have to worry about having to pay for an expansion to enjoy content I already own.
Okay hypthetical.
You’re level 70 in WoW. You can still fight other level 70s. But at any time a guy with a level 80 can come by on a PvP server and waste you, am I correct?
You’re saying because WOW raised the level cap and this game didn’t, it’s not pay to win. In WoW, if someone bought the expansion, and you didn’t and they leveled their character, they would kill you, pretty much automatically. Much more automatically then they did here. They paid for the expansion and they could win. That’s how you’re using the definition. You can’t have it both ways.
Either people who buy the expansion are more powerful than you are or they’re not.
The power different in WoW was much greater. Here if you’re better, you really can win. That would be a lot harder in WoW, particularly once those guys geared up.
I repeat, P2W was never about expansions. It never referred to expansions. Five years ago, no one ever claimed an expansion was pay to win because people were more powerful.
The term was invented to differentation games like Runes of Magic, or Maple Story from legit games. For example, in Black Desert right now, there are outfits in the store you can by for $29 bucks. Some give you stats. Some allow you to hide your name tag from enemies. That would be a classic example of pay to win.
Buying power through microtransactions, not expansions.
Incorrect, GW2 doesn’t have PvP servers, you can’t compare apples to oranges. A fair comparison would be GW2 vs WoWs PvE servers.
More importantly, no the term was invented when 3 words were put together into a sentence and they make a coherent statement of paying to win or winning by payment.
Guild Wars 2 has WvW. But you have to admit, people have more power in WoW if they buy the expansion even in PvP. That’s the very definition of pay to win you’re using.
People who claim expansions are pay to win are simply misusing the term. The problem is people who weren’t there when the term was invented try to use the term literally. Unfortunately there are many terms in English you can’t take literally.
Pay to win was usually meant to denote games that offered microtransactions that provided power. If you can buy somethign that makes you more powerful, particularly if you cant’ earn it in game as well, it’s a pay to win game.
Expansions were never considered pay to win and I can’t think of any expansion in any MMORPG that didn’t increase the power of the game. Most games that comes through leveling.
If anything this game is less pay to win, since PvP is normalized here.
I think you misunderstand their use of pay to win, the elite specs have pretty much dominated every game-mode, there is no balance with elite specs and non-elite specs. If you don’t buy HoT you can’t compete in any part of the game.
Completely irrelevant to what I said. Name ANY MMORPG that’s not pay to win by that defintion. WoW is pay to win. They’re all pay to win if you count expansions.
You are simply using the words literally and ignoring the meaning that was assigned to those words when they were first used.
If every single MMO is pay to win, then there’s nothing to talk about.
um no, other MMOs aren’t pay to win by that definition. I’ve played WoW and didn’t get the next expansion, I stayed relevant in the content that came out prior to that expansion. I could still PvP at the previous max level and be competitive, I could still run all the same content and be good. You’re wrong and clearly have no clue what pay to win means or perhaps you are one of the people who enjoys pay to win, which is fine. But it shouldn’t be in this game.
Are you saying that when you PvP in WoW gear doesn’t matter, and you can be 10 levels lower and still beat guys 10 levels higher than you?
I am saying that in WoW if I am level 70 and a new expansion comes out I can continue playing at level 70 with other people at level 70 and not have to worry about having to pay for an expansion to enjoy content I already own.
Okay hypthetical.
You’re level 70 in WoW. You can still fight other level 70s. But at any time a guy with a level 80 can come by on a PvP server and waste you, am I correct?
You’re saying because WOW raised the level cap and this game didn’t, it’s not pay to win. In WoW, if someone bought the expansion, and you didn’t and they leveled their character, they would kill you, pretty much automatically. Much more automatically then they did here. They paid for the expansion and they could win. That’s how you’re using the definition. You can’t have it both ways.
Either people who buy the expansion are more powerful than you are or they’re not.
The power different in WoW was much greater. Here if you’re better, you really can win. That would be a lot harder in WoW, particularly once those guys geared up.
I repeat, P2W was never about expansions. It never referred to expansions. Five years ago, no one ever claimed an expansion was pay to win because people were more powerful.
The term was invented to differentation games like Runes of Magic, or Maple Story from legit games. For example, in Black Desert right now, there are outfits in the store you can by for $29 bucks. Some give you stats. Some allow you to hide your name tag from enemies. That would be a classic example of pay to win.
Buying power through microtransactions, not expansions.
Incorrect, GW2 doesn’t have PvP servers, you can’t compare apples to oranges. A fair comparison would be GW2 vs WoWs PvE servers.
More importantly, no the term was invented when 3 words were put together into a sentence and they make a coherent statement of paying to win or winning by payment.
Guild Wars 2 has WvW. But you have to admit, people have more power in WoW if they buy the expansion even in PvP. That’s the very definition of pay to win you’re using.
WoW PvP doesn’t work that way, it works in scales of 1-9 and 10s. Or at least it did last time I played. So a level 71 who bought the next expansion wouldn’t be playing against a level 70 who did not.
WvW is also unbalanced by elite specs, Trust me I know. I have HoT I have the elite specs and I would never run a non-elite spec build ever again thats how unbalanced it is.
People who claim expansions are pay to win are simply misusing the term. The problem is people who weren’t there when the term was invented try to use the term literally. Unfortunately there are many terms in English you can’t take literally.
Pay to win was usually meant to denote games that offered microtransactions that provided power. If you can buy somethign that makes you more powerful, particularly if you cant’ earn it in game as well, it’s a pay to win game.
Expansions were never considered pay to win and I can’t think of any expansion in any MMORPG that didn’t increase the power of the game. Most games that comes through leveling.
If anything this game is less pay to win, since PvP is normalized here.
I think you misunderstand their use of pay to win, the elite specs have pretty much dominated every game-mode, there is no balance with elite specs and non-elite specs. If you don’t buy HoT you can’t compete in any part of the game.
Completely irrelevant to what I said. Name ANY MMORPG that’s not pay to win by that defintion. WoW is pay to win. They’re all pay to win if you count expansions.
You are simply using the words literally and ignoring the meaning that was assigned to those words when they were first used.
If every single MMO is pay to win, then there’s nothing to talk about.
um no, other MMOs aren’t pay to win by that definition. I’ve played WoW and didn’t get the next expansion, I stayed relevant in the content that came out prior to that expansion. I could still PvP at the previous max level and be competitive, I could still run all the same content and be good. You’re wrong and clearly have no clue what pay to win means or perhaps you are one of the people who enjoys pay to win, which is fine. But it shouldn’t be in this game.
Are you saying that when you PvP in WoW gear doesn’t matter, and you can be 10 levels lower and still beat guys 10 levels higher than you?
I am saying that in WoW if I am level 70 and a new expansion comes out I can continue playing at level 70 with other people at level 70 and not have to worry about having to pay for an expansion to enjoy content I already own.
Okay hypthetical.
You’re level 70 in WoW. You can still fight other level 70s. But at any time a guy with a level 80 can come by on a PvP server and waste you, am I correct?
You’re saying because WOW raised the level cap and this game didn’t, it’s not pay to win. In WoW, if someone bought the expansion, and you didn’t and they leveled their character, they would kill you, pretty much automatically. Much more automatically then they did here. They paid for the expansion and they could win. That’s how you’re using the definition. You can’t have it both ways.
Either people who buy the expansion are more powerful than you are or they’re not.
The power different in WoW was much greater. Here if you’re better, you really can win. That would be a lot harder in WoW, particularly once those guys geared up.
I repeat, P2W was never about expansions. It never referred to expansions. Five years ago, no one ever claimed an expansion was pay to win because people were more powerful.
The term was invented to differentation games like Runes of Magic, or Maple Story from legit games. For example, in Black Desert right now, there are outfits in the store you can by for $29 bucks. Some give you stats. Some allow you to hide your name tag from enemies. That would be a classic example of pay to win.
Buying power through microtransactions, not expansions.
Incorrect, GW2 doesn’t have PvP servers, you can’t compare apples to oranges. A fair comparison would be GW2 vs WoWs PvE servers.
More importantly, no the term was invented when 3 words were put together into a sentence and they make a coherent statement of paying to win or winning by payment.
Guild Wars 2 has WvW. But you have to admit, people have more power in WoW if they buy the expansion even in PvP. That’s the very definition of pay to win you’re using.
WoW PvP doesn’t work that way, it works in scales of 1-9 and 10s. Or at least it did last time I played. So a level 71 who bought the next expansion wouldn’t be playing against a level 70 who did not.
WvW is also unbalanced by elite specs, Trust me I know. I have HoT I have the elite specs and I would never run a non-elite spec build ever again thats how unbalanced it is.
But WoW still has open world servers. You can’t say, well excluding that it’s not pay to win.
If you are on a PVP server, and you don’t get the expansion you’re going to lose, pretty much automatically to a higher player. People on those servers would have every right to call that pay to win.
Here, even playing without elite stats, I’ve won PvP matches. I’ve even beaten some people with elite specs. Sometimes it’s a rock paper scissors thing.
Expansions were never before part of the P2W equation. No one talked about it years ago. It’s a perpertually shifting goal post because people don’t remember the original conversation and they’re talking the words literally.
Fact: WoW has PVP servers.
Fact; If you have a higher level, which you can only get with an expansion you can kill another player quite easily.
Fact: By your definition WoW is pay to win.
You simply have to look at the definition of pay to win and you have to apply it equally to each game, not compare the features of each game.
If there is a server on WoW, an area in which you have more power, then WoW is pay to win…by your definition.
People who claim expansions are pay to win are simply misusing the term. The problem is people who weren’t there when the term was invented try to use the term literally. Unfortunately there are many terms in English you can’t take literally.
Pay to win was usually meant to denote games that offered microtransactions that provided power. If you can buy somethign that makes you more powerful, particularly if you cant’ earn it in game as well, it’s a pay to win game.
Expansions were never considered pay to win and I can’t think of any expansion in any MMORPG that didn’t increase the power of the game. Most games that comes through leveling.
If anything this game is less pay to win, since PvP is normalized here.
I think you misunderstand their use of pay to win, the elite specs have pretty much dominated every game-mode, there is no balance with elite specs and non-elite specs. If you don’t buy HoT you can’t compete in any part of the game.
Completely irrelevant to what I said. Name ANY MMORPG that’s not pay to win by that defintion. WoW is pay to win. They’re all pay to win if you count expansions.
You are simply using the words literally and ignoring the meaning that was assigned to those words when they were first used.
If every single MMO is pay to win, then there’s nothing to talk about.
um no, other MMOs aren’t pay to win by that definition. I’ve played WoW and didn’t get the next expansion, I stayed relevant in the content that came out prior to that expansion. I could still PvP at the previous max level and be competitive, I could still run all the same content and be good. You’re wrong and clearly have no clue what pay to win means or perhaps you are one of the people who enjoys pay to win, which is fine. But it shouldn’t be in this game.
Are you saying that when you PvP in WoW gear doesn’t matter, and you can be 10 levels lower and still beat guys 10 levels higher than you?
I am saying that in WoW if I am level 70 and a new expansion comes out I can continue playing at level 70 with other people at level 70 and not have to worry about having to pay for an expansion to enjoy content I already own.
Okay hypthetical.
You’re level 70 in WoW. You can still fight other level 70s. But at any time a guy with a level 80 can come by on a PvP server and waste you, am I correct?
You’re saying because WOW raised the level cap and this game didn’t, it’s not pay to win. In WoW, if someone bought the expansion, and you didn’t and they leveled their character, they would kill you, pretty much automatically. Much more automatically then they did here. They paid for the expansion and they could win. That’s how you’re using the definition. You can’t have it both ways.
Either people who buy the expansion are more powerful than you are or they’re not.
The power different in WoW was much greater. Here if you’re better, you really can win. That would be a lot harder in WoW, particularly once those guys geared up.
I repeat, P2W was never about expansions. It never referred to expansions. Five years ago, no one ever claimed an expansion was pay to win because people were more powerful.
The term was invented to differentation games like Runes of Magic, or Maple Story from legit games. For example, in Black Desert right now, there are outfits in the store you can by for $29 bucks. Some give you stats. Some allow you to hide your name tag from enemies. That would be a classic example of pay to win.
Buying power through microtransactions, not expansions.
Incorrect, GW2 doesn’t have PvP servers, you can’t compare apples to oranges. A fair comparison would be GW2 vs WoWs PvE servers.
More importantly, no the term was invented when 3 words were put together into a sentence and they make a coherent statement of paying to win or winning by payment.
Guild Wars 2 has WvW. But you have to admit, people have more power in WoW if they buy the expansion even in PvP. That’s the very definition of pay to win you’re using.
WoW PvP doesn’t work that way, it works in scales of 1-9 and 10s. Or at least it did last time I played. So a level 71 who bought the next expansion wouldn’t be playing against a level 70 who did not.
WvW is also unbalanced by elite specs, Trust me I know. I have HoT I have the elite specs and I would never run a non-elite spec build ever again thats how unbalanced it is.
But WoW still has open world servers. You can’t say, well excluding that it’s not pay to win.
If you are on a PVP server, and you don’t get the expansion you’re going to lose, pretty much automatically to a higher player. People on those servers would have every right to call that pay to win.
Here, even playing without elite stats, I’ve won PvP matches. I’ve even beaten some people with elite specs. Sometimes it’s a rock paper scissors thing.
Expansions were never before part of the P2W equation. No one talked about it years ago. It’s a perpertually shifting goal post because people don’t remember the original conversation and they’re talking the words literally.
Fact: WoW has PVP servers.
Fact; If you have a higher level, which you can only get with an expansion you can kill another player quite easily.
Fact: By your definition WoW is pay to win.You simply have to look at the definition of pay to win and you have to apply it equally to each game, not compare the features of each game.
If there is a server on WoW, an area in which you have more power, then WoW is pay to win…by your definition.
We’re just going back and forth at this point and I am bored of seeing you be wrong over and over again so I won’t be replying after this, feel free to get the last word in. I just have one last thing to say.
WoW is not pay to win, its pay to proceed. You keep insisting we commit to PvP servers, but PvP servers are an option, GW2 has no options to play outside of the P2W scenario.
Also once again P2W has always meant exactly what it sounds like. It didn’t always apply to this payment model because the GW2 payment model and other games with similar models are fairly new.
People who claim expansions are pay to win are simply misusing the term. The problem is people who weren’t there when the term was invented try to use the term literally. Unfortunately there are many terms in English you can’t take literally.
Pay to win was usually meant to denote games that offered microtransactions that provided power. If you can buy somethign that makes you more powerful, particularly if you cant’ earn it in game as well, it’s a pay to win game.
Expansions were never considered pay to win and I can’t think of any expansion in any MMORPG that didn’t increase the power of the game. Most games that comes through leveling.
If anything this game is less pay to win, since PvP is normalized here.
I think you misunderstand their use of pay to win, the elite specs have pretty much dominated every game-mode, there is no balance with elite specs and non-elite specs. If you don’t buy HoT you can’t compete in any part of the game.
Completely irrelevant to what I said. Name ANY MMORPG that’s not pay to win by that defintion. WoW is pay to win. They’re all pay to win if you count expansions.
You are simply using the words literally and ignoring the meaning that was assigned to those words when they were first used.
If every single MMO is pay to win, then there’s nothing to talk about.
um no, other MMOs aren’t pay to win by that definition. I’ve played WoW and didn’t get the next expansion, I stayed relevant in the content that came out prior to that expansion. I could still PvP at the previous max level and be competitive, I could still run all the same content and be good. You’re wrong and clearly have no clue what pay to win means or perhaps you are one of the people who enjoys pay to win, which is fine. But it shouldn’t be in this game.
Are you saying that when you PvP in WoW gear doesn’t matter, and you can be 10 levels lower and still beat guys 10 levels higher than you?
I am saying that in WoW if I am level 70 and a new expansion comes out I can continue playing at level 70 with other people at level 70 and not have to worry about having to pay for an expansion to enjoy content I already own.
Okay hypthetical.
You’re level 70 in WoW. You can still fight other level 70s. But at any time a guy with a level 80 can come by on a PvP server and waste you, am I correct?
You’re saying because WOW raised the level cap and this game didn’t, it’s not pay to win. In WoW, if someone bought the expansion, and you didn’t and they leveled their character, they would kill you, pretty much automatically. Much more automatically then they did here. They paid for the expansion and they could win. That’s how you’re using the definition. You can’t have it both ways.
Either people who buy the expansion are more powerful than you are or they’re not.
The power different in WoW was much greater. Here if you’re better, you really can win. That would be a lot harder in WoW, particularly once those guys geared up.
I repeat, P2W was never about expansions. It never referred to expansions. Five years ago, no one ever claimed an expansion was pay to win because people were more powerful.
The term was invented to differentation games like Runes of Magic, or Maple Story from legit games. For example, in Black Desert right now, there are outfits in the store you can by for $29 bucks. Some give you stats. Some allow you to hide your name tag from enemies. That would be a classic example of pay to win.
Buying power through microtransactions, not expansions.
Incorrect, GW2 doesn’t have PvP servers, you can’t compare apples to oranges. A fair comparison would be GW2 vs WoWs PvE servers.
More importantly, no the term was invented when 3 words were put together into a sentence and they make a coherent statement of paying to win or winning by payment.
Guild Wars 2 has WvW. But you have to admit, people have more power in WoW if they buy the expansion even in PvP. That’s the very definition of pay to win you’re using.
WoW PvP doesn’t work that way, it works in scales of 1-9 and 10s. Or at least it did last time I played. So a level 71 who bought the next expansion wouldn’t be playing against a level 70 who did not.
WvW is also unbalanced by elite specs, Trust me I know. I have HoT I have the elite specs and I would never run a non-elite spec build ever again thats how unbalanced it is.
But WoW still has open world servers. You can’t say, well excluding that it’s not pay to win.
If you are on a PVP server, and you don’t get the expansion you’re going to lose, pretty much automatically to a higher player. People on those servers would have every right to call that pay to win.
Here, even playing without elite stats, I’ve won PvP matches. I’ve even beaten some people with elite specs. Sometimes it’s a rock paper scissors thing.
Expansions were never before part of the P2W equation. No one talked about it years ago. It’s a perpertually shifting goal post because people don’t remember the original conversation and they’re talking the words literally.
Fact: WoW has PVP servers.
Fact; If you have a higher level, which you can only get with an expansion you can kill another player quite easily.
Fact: By your definition WoW is pay to win.You simply have to look at the definition of pay to win and you have to apply it equally to each game, not compare the features of each game.
If there is a server on WoW, an area in which you have more power, then WoW is pay to win…by your definition.
We’re just going back and forth at this point and I am bored of seeing you be wrong over and over again so I won’t be replying after this, feel free to get the last word in. I just have one last thing to say.
WoW is not pay to win, its pay to proceed. You keep insisting we commit to PvP servers, but PvP servers are an option, GW2 has no options to play outside of the P2W scenario.
Also once again P2W has always meant exactly what it sounds like. It didn’t always apply to this payment model because the GW2 payment model and other games with similar models are fairly new.
If you’re going to use this sort of argument, then I don’t understand why you don’t consider “pay to proceed” as p2w. You can’t proceed in the game without paying so it doesn’t make sense to declare its only p2w if you pay, if you’re blocked from proceeding if you don’t pay and you can’t PvP at the new higher levels, or see the new content and raids if you’re a PvE person.
In that case WoWs expansions are p2w because you can’t proceed in the game unless you pay.
/Shrug. People have gotten on the forum and declared the game p2w because you can buy cosmetics from the gem store. That didn’t make sense to me either. But that what happens when people ignore the established definition and start making new ones and twisting the words around to suit their purpose.
Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.
ANet may give it to you.
(edited by Just a flesh wound.3589)
Cause gamers in general are ridiculously stingy with their wallets, but only really when it comes to gaming.
Ask them to pay for mods? Riot
Ask them to pay for an expansion regardless of content? Riot
Friday night at the movies with a large popcorn? Drops $50 without blinking an eye.
Shopping for clothes they don’t need at target? Drop $100 without breaking a sweat.
So they use the pay to win argument as an attack against the devs original stance to get the devs to remove a price that they would be more than willing to pay anywhere else.
/just buy the kitten expansion it has more hours worth of entertainment than the star wars movies.
Little red Lioka
/Shrug. People have gotten on the forum and declared the game p2w because you can buy cosmetics from the gem store. That didn’t make sense to me either.
The loose definition of P2W is not being able to realistically compete with someone who paid real money. With the endgame being cosmetic, aka Fashion Wars, some people will see the better looks locked behind the gem store as paying to win the fashion contest. However, with gems being easy to acquire through gold imo, one can realistically compete without spending money.
I am saying that in WoW if I am level 70 and a new expansion comes out I can continue playing at level 70 with other people at level 70 and not have to worry about having to pay for an expansion to enjoy content I already own.
Back when I played, which may no longer be a problem due to PvP gear, I could take that 70 into the expansion, get rare or whatever quest gear and be superior to the old level 70s. I remember dominating the old brackets and I wasn’t even min/maxed, just whatever I could easily get.
I’m pretty sure anyone who’s played WoW, and takes an honest look at the situation, knows for a fact that a higher level is more power and you need to buy an expansion to get that power.
By that definition just about every MMO is pay to win, which is why that’s not the definition.
The phrase was created so players could tell the difference between legitimate MMOs and ones who sold power in the cash shop. Five years ago, no one ever claimed any expansion was P2W and it only makes sense of you interpret it literally.
It’s talking about games where you literally buy power in the cash shop. Stats. Advantage in combat. Those are pay to win games. Games that keep requiring cash flow in order to progress. Maple story. Runequest.
Games like Guild Wars 2 or WoW don’t belong in that conversation. They come out with expansions and you buy them to continue playing.
Anyone who thinks you can just keep playing WOW and the expansion makes no difference is fooling themselves. Anyone trying to say that expansions are pay to win are interpreting pay to win differently than it was interpreted in years before.
If you want to move the goal posts, then you have to move it for every game, and every MMORPG is pay to win.
Vayne you are right, but the Elite Spec are pretty close to pay to win if you ask me.
Okay I’ve said this many times and not a single person has been able to answer me.
Can you name ANY MMORPG, any at all, that isn’t pay to win if you count expansions. I ask this because I can’t. P2W was always mean to refer to cash shops, not expansions.
Take WoW as an example. WoW raises the level cap with every expansion. That is you become far more powerful each time an expansion comes out, including in PvP. This has been true in every MMO I’ve played.
Expansions are sold and people are expected to buy them to continue to playing the game, even in a subscription game.
Now in Guild Wars 2, there’s less P2W than any other MMO because they didn’t raise the level cap and you can still compete with some builds in PvP.
P2W was meant to denote games that sold power in the cash shop that you couldn’t get in game. It never covered an expansion to my knowledge.
If it did, even Guild Wars 1 was pay to win.
Actually you have been answered in the past when you made this point. It was also pointed out that the same wiki that you have used to support your definition of other MMO terms disagrees with your limited definition of pay to win.
WoW’s expansions add character levels. A character who advances in power level via an expansion in WoW is moving on to higher level content, perhaps including a higher PvP tier where characters at the old power cap are not expected to compete.
In GW2 buying and taking advantage of the supposed (Ihave not seen analysis that demonstrates that the elite specs are objectively more powerful so I say, “supposed.”) Power increase via the expansion remain at the same character level as, in direct competition with, those who do not. WoW attempts to seperate the old power level from the new while GW2 expects old, underpoered, chaacters to compete with the new power cap.
I am not claiming that HoT is pay to win because I dont know for a fact that the elite specs are more powerful. But, if they are, the expansion becomes something for which one pays real money for an advantage over those, with whom one is in direct competition, who do not.
(edited by Ashen.2907)
The general agreed definition of “Pay to Win” is; Any purchase made with a real world currency that gives you an advantage in a game over others.
By the general definition Gw2 Hot IS a pay to win expansion.
Let me list some of the advantages to having HoT over a Core Account. This is ignoring everything actually gained in HoT Maps.
- Mentor tag
- Run Speed in cities
- 10% experience from all crafting that grants experience.
- 10% higher chance of critical bonus crafting
- Pact Supply Network Agents
- Revive your allies faster and with less penalties.
- Automatically pick up loot
- Precursor Crafting
- Daily Fractal Achievements
- Bonus Rewards during Fractals
- Ascended Attunements(extra Agony slot on rings)
- Additional rewards from Fractals Chests of the Mists
- Additional rewards from Unlocked Fractal Encryptions
- Improved Fractal potions
- Mistlock Singularities(Agony resistance and instant revive on next down)
- Elite Specializations(ES)
* All ES skills are significantly stronger than core skills.
* ES grants a new mechanic to each profession.
* New weapon on each ES. - Scribbling
- Use of Guild Arena
- Use of Guild Enhancements
- Starting Guild Hall capture
- Guild Hall Miniatures Merchant
- Guild Hall Decorations Merchant
- Guild Trader
- Gliding
- Shield Generator in WvW
I’m probably missing several as well.
Many of these listed above should be unlock-able for core accounts or re-balanced in relation with core skills. Especially Elite Specializations, I’m not upset about the power difference, more so I’m upset about the fact I have to be an elite specialization now or I’m essentially fighting with an arm behind my back.
Even though, compared to your Typical Free to play/Pay to win game this is much better, but it is one step down a slippery slope.
The general agreed definition of “Pay to Win” is; Any purchase made with a real world currency that gives you an advantage in a game over others.
By the general definition Gw2 Hot IS a pay to win expansion.
Let me list some of the advantages to having HoT over a Core Account. This is ignoring everything actually gained in HoT Maps.
- Mentor tag
- Run Speed in cities
- 10% experience from all crafting that grants experience.
- 10% higher chance of critical bonus crafting
- Pact Supply Network Agents
- Revive your allies faster and with less penalties.
- Automatically pick up loot
- Precursor Crafting
- Daily Fractal Achievements
- Bonus Rewards during Fractals
- Ascended Attunements(extra Agony slot on rings)
- Additional rewards from Fractals Chests of the Mists
- Additional rewards from Unlocked Fractal Encryptions
- Improved Fractal potions
- Mistlock Singularities(Agony resistance and instant revive on next down)
- Elite Specializations(ES)
* All ES skills are significantly stronger than core skills.
* ES grants a new mechanic to each profession.
* New weapon on each ES.- Scribbling
- Use of Guild Arena
- Use of Guild Enhancements
- Starting Guild Hall capture
- Guild Hall Miniatures Merchant
- Guild Hall Decorations Merchant
- Guild Trader
- Gliding
- Shield Generator in WvW
I’m probably missing several as well.
Many of these listed above should be unlock-able for core accounts or re-balanced in relation with core skills. Especially Elite Specializations, I’m not upset about the power difference, more so I’m upset about the fact I have to be an elite specialization now or I’m essentially fighting with an arm behind my back.Even though, compared to your Typical Free to play/Pay to win game this is much better, but it is one step down a slippery slope.
This has to go down as one of the most ridiculous posts out there. HoT is a expansion, and as such you pay for its features.
For some unknown reason, large majority of people that frequent those boards fail to understand that GW2 and AreanaNet is a business. I mean I don’t expect every joe or retiree to understand how things work, but can you all please stop with all the whining. No HoT is not hard, No raids are not only for elites (mind you haven’t ran one yet) No you are not entitled to content that you can’t put any effort trying to get it.
This place is getting worse by the day, the amount people whining about little things and things they struggle to achieve is silly. Worst thing is they don’t stop and think about the game overall, just what they can’t get or do.
I don’t blame the devs or even Gaile not being all that active on those boards, when everyday theres some self entitled prick slagging the game for no reason then just selfishness, without leaving any constructive feedback.
Meh, why I even bothered :\
Vayne you are right, but the Elite Spec are pretty close to pay to win if you ask me.
Okay I’ve said this many times and not a single person has been able to answer me.
Can you name ANY MMORPG, any at all, that isn’t pay to win if you count expansions. I ask this because I can’t. P2W was always mean to refer to cash shops, not expansions.
Take WoW as an example. WoW raises the level cap with every expansion. That is you become far more powerful each time an expansion comes out, including in PvP. This has been true in every MMO I’ve played.
Expansions are sold and people are expected to buy them to continue to playing the game, even in a subscription game.
Now in Guild Wars 2, there’s less P2W than any other MMO because they didn’t raise the level cap and you can still compete with some builds in PvP.
P2W was meant to denote games that sold power in the cash shop that you couldn’t get in game. It never covered an expansion to my knowledge.
If it did, even Guild Wars 1 was pay to win.
Actually you have been answered in the past when you made this point. It was also pointed out that the same wiki that you have used to support your definition of other MMO terms disagrees with your limited definition of pay to win.
WoW’s expansions add character levels. A character who advances in power level via an expansion in WoW is moving on to higher level content, perhaps including a higher PvP tier where characters at the old power cap are not expected to compete.
In GW2 buying and taking advantage of the supposed (Ihave not seen analysis that demonstrates that the elite specs are objectively more powerful so I say, “supposed.”) Power increase via the expansion remain at the same character level as, in direct competition with, those who do not. WoW attempts to seperate the old power level from the new while GW2 expects old, underpoered, chaacters to compete with the new power cap.
I am not claiming that HoT is pay to win because I dont know for a fact that the elite specs are more powerful. But, if they are, the expansion becomes something for which one pays real money for an advantage over those, with whom one is in direct competition, who do not.
And I’ve answered that. Since WoW does have PvP servers, if you happen to be on a PvP server, you are facing people who are higher level than you with no chance at all to beat them in open world PvP. Open World PvP is maps devoted to PvP that all levels can enter and fight on. Therefore WoW is pay to win.
The only way you can prove it’s not is if you can tell me that people that are level 80 can’t fight peopel that are level 70 that don’t have the expansion. But you can’t tell me that, because it’s not true. On a PvP server higher level players can beat up on lower level players, even if they haven’t bought the expansion. That’s the definition of pay to win you’re using, so if you’re using WoW you’re factually wrong.
There are other advantages people get, ev3en brought up in this very thread, a few posts above this one. You can go into higher zones, come back and PvP on your level 70 character that’s twinked out with better gear from having the expansion, again pay to win.
Saying people have answered it only works if the answers actually fits. Saying you’ve answered it and ignoring the places where WOW is pay to win (by this definition which I don’t agree with anyway) is pointless.
The problem (sensible) people had with paying $50 for HoT was the high price for the low amount of content.
^this, that’s why I got mine directly from amazon UK for £28 as opposed to the £35 directly from ANet as I had a bad feeling about what we would be paying for, I was right in my opinion, HoT was indeed light on content for the price. But I did get a Box for my £28 too, not to mention this was a pre-purchase one to boot.
i5 4690K @ 3.5Mhz|8GB HyperX Savage 1600mHz|MSI H81M-E34|MSI GTX 960 Gaming 2GB|
|Seasonic S12G 650W|Win10 Pro X64| Corsair Spec 03 Case|
|Seasonic S12G 650W|Win10 Pro X64| Corsair Spec 03 Case|
(edited by BrotherBelial.3094)
Generally, I find the problem isn’t necessarily “pay to win” as much as it is “pay to win over me”. I.E. PVP advantages.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
This has to go down as one of the most ridiculous posts out there. HoT is a expansion, and as such you pay for its features.
For someunknownreason, large majority of people that frequent those boards fail to understand that GW2 and AreanaNet is a business. I mean I don’t expect every joe or retiree to understand how things work, but can you all please stop with all the whining. No HoT is not hard, No raids are not only for elites (mind you haven’t ran one yet) No you are not entitled to content that you can’t put any effort trying to get it.This place is getting worse by the day, the amount people whining about little things and things they struggle to achieve is silly. Worst thing is they don’t stop and think about the game overall, just what they can’t get or do.
I don’t blame the devs or even Gaile not being all that active on those boards, when everyday theres some self entitled prick slagging the game for no reason then just selfishness, without leaving any constructive feedback.
Meh, why I even bothered :\
I can’t really understand your reply to my post, you say it’s “ridiculous” then begin speaking about entitlement, raiding, and how hard HoT is. I am not speaking about any of that. The question posed by this topic is why people complain about HoT being pay to win, and I have answered that. Each of the bulleted points is some item In the core game that gives an advantiage to a HoT player that a core player does not have. I specifically excluded anything in the HoT maps or anything that would be considered “Expansion” content. I’m focusing on only content that affected core gameplay. There is a clear diffrence between the core game with HoT and without. Some of it is understandable, but many is in fact a signifigant advantiage agianst players without HoT.
You say people on this board fail to understand Anet is a buisness, however it is the fact they complain that shows bad buisnesss practices. A perfect company can make a game that makes players throw thousands of dollars at it while being balanced and enjoyable to everyone. A good case of this is Team Fortress 2 that I know many of my friends has spent hundreds of dollars on the game. Those same friends are playing GW2 now and have not spent such money.
As a fan we need to support the game we love, however we need to not blindly acept everything that is given to us and let the complany who makes it know when they are heading in the wrong direction.
Vayne you are right, but the Elite Spec are pretty close to pay to win if you ask me.
Okay I’ve said this many times and not a single person has been able to answer me.
Can you name ANY MMORPG, any at all, that isn’t pay to win if you count expansions. I ask this because I can’t. P2W was always mean to refer to cash shops, not expansions.
Take WoW as an example. WoW raises the level cap with every expansion. That is you become far more powerful each time an expansion comes out, including in PvP. This has been true in every MMO I’ve played.
Expansions are sold and people are expected to buy them to continue to playing the game, even in a subscription game.
Now in Guild Wars 2, there’s less P2W than any other MMO because they didn’t raise the level cap and you can still compete with some builds in PvP.
P2W was meant to denote games that sold power in the cash shop that you couldn’t get in game. It never covered an expansion to my knowledge.
If it did, even Guild Wars 1 was pay to win.
Actually you have been answered in the past when you made this point. It was also pointed out that the same wiki that you have used to support your definition of other MMO terms disagrees with your limited definition of pay to win.
WoW’s expansions add character levels. A character who advances in power level via an expansion in WoW is moving on to higher level content, perhaps including a higher PvP tier where characters at the old power cap are not expected to compete.
In GW2 buying and taking advantage of the supposed (Ihave not seen analysis that demonstrates that the elite specs are objectively more powerful so I say, “supposed.”) Power increase via the expansion remain at the same character level as, in direct competition with, those who do not. WoW attempts to seperate the old power level from the new while GW2 expects old, underpoered, chaacters to compete with the new power cap.
I am not claiming that HoT is pay to win because I dont know for a fact that the elite specs are more powerful. But, if they are, the expansion becomes something for which one pays real money for an advantage over those, with whom one is in direct competition, who do not.
And I’ve answered that. Since WoW does have PvP servers, if you happen to be on a PvP server, you are facing people who are higher level than you with no chance at all to beat them in open world PvP. Open World PvP is maps devoted to PvP that all levels can enter and fight on. Therefore WoW is pay to win.
The only way you can prove it’s not is if you can tell me that people that are level 80 can’t fight peopel that are level 70 that don’t have the expansion. But you can’t tell me that, because it’s not true. On a PvP server higher level players can beat up on lower level players, even if they haven’t bought the expansion. That’s the definition of pay to win you’re using, so if you’re using WoW you’re factually wrong.
There are other advantages people get, ev3en brought up in this very thread, a few posts above this one. You can go into higher zones, come back and PvP on your level 70 character that’s twinked out with better gear from having the expansion, again pay to win.
Saying people have answered it only works if the answers actually fits. Saying you’ve answered it and ignoring the places where WOW is pay to win (by this definition which I don’t agree with anyway) is pointless.
What about non PvP servers?
1 2