Guild Wars 2

Jovel.5706:

It’s all about that gear progression huh? Answer my question though. If this feeling of GEAR progression is so important to MMORPG’s and CORPG’s everywhere, what will you and the many carrot-lovers do once you’re blinged up on full ascended gear? Like, if they released ascended armor to Fractals in the March update, and you were covered head to toe in Ascended gear, what will you do? Ask them to make a new tier of gear to please your obsession? Honest question. Also, did coloring the letters of Ascended gear pink please your gear treadmill and progression disorder? What if Legendary and Exotic gear had infusion slots and the Ascended gear idea was scrapped before November, would your disorder still trouble you?

I love this. Can we -please- start referring to peoples’ need for the illusion of vertical progression as a disorder? Vertical Progression Disorder? VPD for short?

aluisiora.4568:

I still don’t get the complaints, do people really expect to waste time and money to get the exotic and then, after 1 year playing, still be with the same gear?

Of course the game needs some kind of progression, such as raising lvl cap, adding new stuff, new gears, new set designs. I agree that Ascended gear came too soon and it should be even harder to get, but this such things are necessary, would you play i.e. GTA for a year straight knowing that you actually didn’t make any progress? I guess not.

Considering my Ele in GW1 is still wearing the set of lvl20 gear I got her, oh I don’t know, seven or eight years ago?

Yes. I was expecting to be able to get a set of max armor and simply enjoy the game.

Not having a gear treadmill isn’t “boring and plain” as some call it, it’s refreshing, it’s freeing. You can actually reach the end of the gear progression, and have the best stuff! And then you’re free to do other things, explore, work towards a really cool skin, the possibilities are amazing if you can pull your head out long enough to see.

Because as long as there’s a higher tier of gear, why spend time doing anything else? Why waste time on something that’s merely shiny when you could work on something to make yourself more powerful?

I’ll admit I didn’t like the level 20 cap when GW1 released, and I hoped with they’d raise it later in an expansion. Why couldn’t I get stronger, I felt so weak, so limited.
You know what it made me do?
I actually had to learn to make the best use of what I had!
Instead of taking the lazy way and grinding out an extra ten levels and simply overpowering everything with brute force I was forced to optimize my skills, actually put effort into making a decent build.
It took me a long time to really appreciate the level/gear cap, I’d simply spent far too much time on other MMOs where really all you do is grind towards the next tier (no, really, some of them upped the level cap and added new tiers like once a year), so reaching the end of that grind so quickly was a huge shock, but once that wore off I found an amazing game waiting to be played.

A gear grind for the sake of a gear grind is stupid, you’re in the wrong game (or you were, looks like they’ve sold out, body and soul, to make you happy though, so you’d better freaking appreciate it)

People keep talking about how they said there would eventually be a raise to the level cap, but I thought I followed the dev process fairly well and don’t remember ever seeing something like that. That’s the most depressing news I’ve heard, bar none.
The day they raise the level cap might be the day I log out for the last time (although, as I typed that I had a really interesting idea, I’ll stick it on the suggestions page and see what people think, maybe add a link here)

My idea:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Gear-grind-future-gear-tier-solution/1281923

We were told that we wouldn’t need to farm to have the best gear. What ANet really meant was that they thought we just didn’t need the best gear. I’ll go play a meta where I have an equal chance at success with everybody else instead. The only thing GW2 is good for is leveling alts.

Ascended gear was meant to go between Exotics and Legendary, so the effort gap between Exotic and Legendary isn’t so wide.

Think of Ascended as the tier jump between Rares and Exotics.

kenshinakh.3672:

Ascended gear was meant to go between Exotics and Legendary, so the effort gap between Exotic and Legendary isn’t so wide.

Okay. Answer me, this, then: Why Ascended needed to have better stats, if Legendaries had the same stats as Exotics?

(and the jump in effort between exotics and Ascended is bigger than between whites and Exotics. Because, you know, all the pre-Ascended tiers can be gotten in multitude of ways, including crafting and Trading Post )

Astralporing.1957:

kenshinakh.3672:

Ascended gear was meant to go between Exotics and Legendary, so the effort gap between Exotic and Legendary isn’t so wide.

Okay. Answer me, this, then: Why Ascended needed to have better stats, if Legendaries had the same stats as Exotics?

(and the jump in effort between exotics and Ascended is bigger than between whites and Exotics. Because, you know, all the pre-Ascended tiers can be gotten in multitude of ways, including crafting and Trading Post )

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/linsey-murdock-unveils-new-high-end-ascended-gear/

Lukhas.1962:

Astralporing.1957:

kenshinakh.3672:

Ascended gear was meant to go between Exotics and Legendary, so the effort gap between Exotic and Legendary isn’t so wide.

Okay. Answer me, this, then: Why Ascended needed to have better stats, if Legendaries had the same stats as Exotics?

(and the jump in effort between exotics and Ascended is bigger than between whites and Exotics. Because, you know, all the pre-Ascended tiers can be gotten in multitude of ways, including crafting and Trading Post )

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/linsey-murdock-unveils-new-high-end-ascended-gear/

There is no answer to my question in that dev blog you linked.

My theory is that Anet realized that the people who followed their initial ideals weren’t enough (probably in the 1.5mil?) and they wanted more players so they introduced traditional MMO features like gear treadmills, daily fetch quests and soon to come blizz-like rated team arenas.
In my opinion this isn’t a good plan for the long run.
By catering to everyone and noone at the same time you have a game that has something for everyone, but a lot everyone won’t like.
And those new players they have gotten by trading in the manifesto early I suspect are people who will jump ship at the next new MMO, so we’ll be left with a community made by “the loyals”… the problem is that to rely on loyals, you need to be loyal to them as well.

But ultimately GW2 hit the market in a moment where nobody has anything of quality ready with a product that is of high quality and developed for years; with no real competitors, they can do whatever they want.
It’ll be years before anything remotely comparable comes out, so they rule like that and we don’t have any option (unless you want to go play those ridiculous MMOs there are around).

By market standards this is “success”.

There’s something a lot of people don’t realize.

Let’s think about it just a bit. If Anet already had Ascended gear from the opening day, and they had all the ways to get ascended gear already created, would people still screamed gear treadmill? Or would they have seen it differently and saw ascended gear as something a tiny bit above exotics, with stats like legendaries?

Before ascended, we had Rares -> Exotics = Lengendary. With ascended, you have Rares->Exotics->Ascended = Legendary, statwise.

Can you honestly still see ascended the same way once you think about it and realize that if Anet had it in before launch, people wouldn’t be making such a big deal out of it?

Don’t forget the next few months will introduce more and more ways to get ascended so that it is easier to get. And at the same time, Exotics and lower rarity gear get easier too.

You could argue it is a gear treadmill, but I can use the same argument and tell you that the progression from Normal->Fine->Masterwork->Rare->Exotic is also a gear treadmill. Ascended gear is like going from Rare->Exotic, but instead it’s Exotic->Ascended.

This is hugely different from a “real” gear treadmill because you don’t need full exotics or ascended to play the content. Unlike gear treadmill games, like WOW, if you’re caught with gear of lower tier (in wow you have Inspect gear), you usually get booted. It’s also very noticeable when people are ungeared vs people who aren’t. I’m sure you all can see that GW2 is different in that case.

Ascended is exactly inline with the design GW2 had initially, except it was half-ready. It’s not a big deal. I say just enjoy the game and play… You’re not going to be hugely affected by ascended if you have exotics already, and in a few months, you’ll probably have ascended too through dailies and monthlies and for just playing normally.

ScribeTheMad.7614:

<snip>

Considering my Ele in GW1 is still wearing the set of lvl20 gear I got her, oh I don’t know, seven or eight years ago?

Yes. I was expecting to be able to get a set of max armor and simply enjoy the game.

Not having a gear treadmill isn’t “boring and plain” as some call it, it’s refreshing, it’s freeing. You can actually reach the end of the gear progression, and have the best stuff! And then you’re free to do other things, explore, work towards a really cool skin, the possibilities are amazing if you can pull your head out long enough to see.
<snip>

I only played GW1 shortly in preparation for GW2 and I must admit that I am sorry I did not get into it earlier.
Much like the quoted statement; I found the approach to gear in GW1 so refreshing compared to the gear-hunt and gear-grind in other games.

And based on pre-release statements from ANet, I fully expected this game to be similar in that approach (the statements about the hunt being for cosmetic gear etc – we all remember them).
It is quite possible to have a game in the manner of how GW1 did it. GW1 is indeed proof of that in itself having a rather strong following for many years. Not a WoW following, but well…. not every game needs that.

ANet however apparently wanted another piece of the pie this time around, and went in a different direction with GW2. Much more grindy and suddenly – an added tier of gear with the promise of several different types of infusion to keep progress existing.

Ascended – for better or worse – have indeed made me play this game much much less and I’ve not used a single dollar in the gem shop since it was patched in.
Perhaps others have, and fine for them. Different people like different things.

Right now I’m just doing dailies occasionally for the laurels waiting for WvW to actually give out equivalent rewards to grinding FotM. Then I might be back ‘for real’ again.

Other than that – I’m killing (pun intended) time and using money in PlanetSide 2 and another MMO waiting for the next MMO to come to town to spend money and time on. Maybe those devs will stick to their statements.

kenshinakh.3672:

There’s something a lot of people don’t realize.

Let’s think about it just a bit. If Anet already had Ascended gear from the opening day, and they had all the ways to get ascended gear already created, would people still screamed gear treadmill? Or would they have seen it differently and saw ascended gear as something a tiny bit above exotics, with stats like legendaries?
<snip>

One of the big issues with Ascended, and what some conveniently overlook – is that at implementation time only could be gotten by running FotM over and over and over.

Had Ascended been implemented like Exotic (karma, WvW tokens, craftable); throughout the entire game, from the start – people wouldn’t have been similarly upset about it, no.
However it was not.
It was patched rather clumsily in and thereby making it an issue and making it look and feel like a gear-grind.
ANet themselves even claimed it was a mistake to only make it FotM available, so now they try to do laurels to ease the effect, but it is still not like ‘Exotic’ or all the other gear in the game. It still isn’t earnable as exotic is. It is indeed a different tier of gear, both in how to get it and stat wise.

And the ‘tiny’ stat thing does not really fit – as can be seen from several games before this that the hunt for an additional percent or two in regards of stat is important and several percent on a single item for a handful of slots are basically ‘must have’ to be on the top.
Stats matter. That’s why some people crave a vertical gear progression scheme. If it didn’t – people wouldn’t equate gear with progress and cosmetic gear only wouldn’t be so unheard of. Basically, the GW1 method wouldn’t be so strange to so many.

And as for legendaries – those were primarily to be cosmetic. Now they’re more needed than at launch. Hence the price of them.

kenshinakh.3672:

There’s something a lot of people don’t realize.

Let’s think about it just a bit. If Anet already had Ascended gear from the opening day, and they had all the ways to get ascended gear already created, would people still screamed gear treadmill? Or would they have seen it differently and saw ascended gear as something a tiny bit above exotics, with stats like legendaries?

Before ascended, we had Rares -> Exotics = Lengendary. With ascended, you have Rares->Exotics->Ascended = Legendary, statwise.

Can you honestly still see ascended the same way once you think about it and realize that if Anet had it in before launch, people wouldn’t be making such a big deal out of it?

Don’t forget the next few months will introduce more and more ways to get ascended so that it is easier to get. And at the same time, Exotics and lower rarity gear get easier too.

You could argue it is a gear treadmill, but I can use the same argument and tell you that the progression from Normal->Fine->Masterwork->Rare->Exotic is also a gear treadmill. Ascended gear is like going from Rare->Exotic, but instead it’s Exotic->Ascended.

This is hugely different from a “real” gear treadmill because you don’t need full exotics or ascended to play the content. Unlike gear treadmill games, like WOW, if you’re caught with gear of lower tier (in wow you have Inspect gear), you usually get booted. It’s also very noticeable when people are ungeared vs people who aren’t. I’m sure you all can see that GW2 is different in that case.

Ascended is exactly inline with the design GW2 had initially, except it was half-ready. It’s not a big deal. I say just enjoy the game and play… You’re not going to be hugely affected by ascended if you have exotics already, and in a few months, you’ll probably have ascended too through dailies and monthlies and for just playing normally.

So what if they had it planed before release? They didnt inform us about its existence, its completely contradictory to several key points in their blog posts and it requires grind to obtain. It was introduced in a very horrible fashion akin to a typical progression based MMO and negates the idea that max level gear can be obtained trough many or rather all means of playing the game.

It is a huge deal for anyone that bought into “if you hate MMOs you r really want to check out GW2”, no grind for stats and several other points. It basically is fraud and besides requesting refunds some people even reported ANET to the FTC over it.

Stop being a fanboy and open your eyes.

It was not released with the game. According to ANET the game was ready when it was released. Hence the “when its done” statements we listened to for 5 years. This gear was not in the release or mentioned at all so stop buying these PR statements and spreading them further.

And no its is not to bridge a gap between exotics and legendary items either.
There was no gap in stats and the gap of money was filled with several other items like the “of the mists” weapons. Some people in ANETs PR department could easily run a presidential election spin room with statements like that.

And finally: it is a gear treadmill since the items were introduced after the game came out. It is not as bad as in some other games but it is a treadmill nonetheless. Sure they are “making it better” but that s just sand in the eyes of anyone following this game for half a decade.

It’s simple. My Warrior is not dealing enough damage.

SonicTHI.3217:

So what if they had it planed before release? They didnt inform us about its existence, its completely contradictory to several key points in their blog posts and it requires grind to obtain. It was introduced in a very horrible fashion akin to a typical progression based MMO and negates the idea that max level gear can be obtained trough many or rather all means of playing the game.

Do you think every game informs you about every single thing? Did they ever inform you which races they want to make next? How about the next fixes they’re doing? Seriously, do you expect them to inform you of every single thing possible? They inform us of things a few weeks before, just like how they inform us of those holiday events… Think about what you’re saying. I’m willing to bet you that in a year, once ascended is finally fleshed out properly, these complaints will be of the past, and getting ascended will have many ways of obtaining, just like exotics. Oh, and exotics will be easy to obtain like how rares are considered “easy” to obtain.

SonicTHI.3217:

It is a huge deal for anyone that bought into “if you hate MMOs you r really want to check out GW2”, no grind for stats and several other points. It basically is fraud and besides requesting refunds some people even reported ANET to the FTC over it.

Stop being a fanboy and open your eyes.

I’m no fanboy o.O. I’m just saying what I logically see. Please think more carefully..

If ascended had more ways to obtain like exotics (unlike right now), and it was released at launch, it wouldn’t matter. It would be exactly like it was from rares to exotics.

I never said GW2 doesn’t have a gear treadmill. It’s right there at the start already, Normal->Fine->Masterwork->Rares->Exotics. However, the gear treadmill in GW2 is not your typical gear treadmill like in WoW or other games that require you to keep up with it. What part of the argument do you not understand?

By the way, GW2 is an MMO, in case you didn’t notice… Fraud or no fraud, grind is perspective. If you want to take grind to the extreme, heck, I’d even call GW1 grind because I want everything for free without doing anything, and I want all my looks for free. Of course, if I had such a strict view on grind, I’d be asking a refund on every single MMO I’ve bought. Lol >.>.

SonicTHI.3217:

It was not released with the game. According to ANET the game was ready when it was released. Hence the “when its done” statements we listened to for 5 years. This gear was not in the release or mentioned at all so stop buying these PR statements and spreading them further.

And no its is not to bridge a gap between exotics and legendary items either.
There was no gap in stats and the gap of money was filled with several other items like the “of the mists” weapons. Some people in ANETs PR department could easily run a presidential election spin room with statements like that.

And finally: it is a gear treadmill since the items were introduced after the game came out. It is not as bad as in some other games but it is a treadmill nonetheless. Sure they are “making it better” but that s just sand in the eyes of anyone following this game for half a decade.

I could care less about PR or whatever. I’m taking it at face value and evaluating it with my own reasoning. I don’t give in to what a lot of people do, especially those with short sighted vision on this game. You see, I can actually THINK a bit more into the future than just the NOW. At the moment, Ascended is grindy and seems like a gear treadmill, but later in a year, it’s going to just be a small step like it was for Rare→Exotics. Sure it seems optimistic, but you know what? I can at least say that I can think far ahead compared to some lot of people.

kenshinakh.3672:

Do you think every game informs you about every single thing? Did they ever inform you which races they want to make next? How about the next fixes they’re doing? Seriously, do you expect them to inform you of every single thing possible? They inform us of things a few weeks before, just like how they inform us of those holiday events… Think about what you’re saying. I’m willing to bet you that in a year, once ascended is finally fleshed out properly, these complaints will be of the past, and getting ascended will have many ways of obtaining, just like exotics. Oh, and exotics will be easy to obtain like how rares are considered “easy” to obtain.

Yes. Why do you think i followed this game. Because the DEVs actually did inform us of virtually everything. A complete reversal in a core game mechanic however was reported to the public trough a fansite just a few days before the introduction of it.
Company transparency is something i want. Else i can not trust that company and i will not buy their products.

kenshinakh.3672:

I’m no fanboy o.O. I’m just saying what I logically see. Please think more carefully..

If ascended had more ways to obtain like exotics (unlike right now), and it was released at launch, it wouldn’t matter. It would be exactly like it was from rares to exotics.

I never said GW2 doesn’t have a gear treadmill. It’s right there at the start already, Normal->Fine->Masterwork->Rares->Exotics. However, the gear treadmill in GW2 is not your typical gear treadmill like in WoW or other games that require you to keep up with it. What part of the argument do you not understand?

If ascended had more ways to obtain like exotics there would be no point in ascended gear. Clearly you can see that. A tier above exotic was never needed on its own.

Also you are mistaking the meaning of treadmill. Item rarity is not a treadmill. Obtaining the best gear then obtaining the best new gear again since your old gear is no longer the best is a treadmill.
Whether the gear will let you do new content is completely irrelevant as long as there is a statistical benefit to it that applies to all areas of the game (except spvp).

As for your point how s this for one: Why do we need better gear if we can do all content in our current gear?

The only valid point in ascended gear is that it made the game desirable for the hardcore grinder/raider population. The people that need a carrot to enjoy the game. For everyone else the game was made worse trough it.

As soon as the gear becomes easily obtainable the grinders will demand a new carrot and the cycle can begin anew. The smart (and devious) thing ANET is doing though is slowly leaking this tier in a sense of dangling just a piece of the carrot in front of these people. But it doesnt matter. The end result is always the same: at some point the locusts will leave and the game that abandoned all its other players just to appease a vocal minority of never satisfied customers dies.

I had every Ascended piece available in 3 weeks. I’m not even a hardcore player. You people need to get a grip. Its not much a grind.

SonicTHI.3217:

If ascended had more ways to obtain like exotics there would be no point in ascended gear. Clearly you can see that. A tier above exotic was never needed on its own.

Also you are mistaking the meaning of treadmill. Item rarity is not a treadmill. Obtaining the best gear then obtaining the best new gear again since your old gear is no longer the best is a treadmill.
Whether the gear will let you do new content is completely irrelevant as long as there is a statistical benefit to it that applies to all areas of the game (except spvp).

As for your point how s this for one: Why do we need better gear if we can do all content in our current gear?

The only valid point in ascended gear is that it made the game desirable for the hardcore grinder/raider population. The people that need a carrot to enjoy the game. For everyone else the game was made worse trough it.

As soon as the gear becomes easily obtainable the grinders will demand a new carrot and the cycle can begin anew. The smart (and devious) thing ANET is doing though is slowly leaking this tier in a sense of dangling just a piece of the carrot in front of these people. But it doesnt matter. The end result is always the same: at some point the locusts will leave and the game that abandoned all its other players just to appease a vocal minority of never satisfied customers dies.

Then can’t we argue that there’s no need for Exotics even? Why not stop at Normal gear?
You have a different definition of gear treadmill. I’m not sure if you have played WoW, but gear treadmill in WoW requires you to literally gear up before you can do certain later content. That, in my book, is a real gear treadmill. GW2 doesn’t require you to have ascended to even do most of the content. You could even get to fractals 15-18 without agony resistance, but by the time you get to that level, you probably already have enough relics to get some.

Ascended gear was to add more endgame content, but without imbalancing the other parts of the game. That’s why it has agony, which is only a stat that works in fractals. The stat bonus of 10% from exotics is hardly going to give you an edge in WvW or normal dungeons. It’s a nice extra boost, but I can do both of those with 80 Rares (and I even played with 78 Exotics for 2 months before I bothered gearing).

People are always going to want more and more. That’s what they expect out of an MMO. They expect it to grow and expand, offering them something new overtime. Anyone knows that you have to keep making content or else your players will reach the end and stop… It’s not like you can expect them to release a final version of the game and then stop developing. But unlike other MMOs, GW2’s progression is like a small slope. You don’t have to try hard to get near the top of that slope, and if you decide to stop for a couple months and come back, you’re not going to be behind at all. That’s the key point here, and the key difference between their “carrot” and other MMO’s carrots… If GW2 was the type of game that required me to play constantly, I would be on the same bandwagon as you, but I can see that it’s not. There’s still a sense of progression and growth, but it’s not major enough to make me worried that I’ll be left behind if I stop.

asked that question myself multiple times.

if they truly want me to believe that it’s not that much better equipment then make the gear have exotic stats but with agony resistance. Why add higher stats to ascended at all? It makes it a higher tier and causes people to want to do only 1 thing in the game to gain the gear, dungeons, which causes all kinds of discrimination issues we’ve seen for years in other titles. People wanna do speed runs exclusively and explore runs exclusively.

The picture below is the key reason why there’s a problem with ascended gear. It would be far easier to reduce the stats on ascended gear then to add a higher tier gearset that’s supposedly just for dungeons for future dungeon only content.

let’s be honest about it.

kenshinakh.3672:

Then can’t we argue that there’s no need for Exotics even? Why not stop at Normal gear?
You have a different definition of gear treadmill. I’m not sure if you have played WoW, but gear treadmill in WoW requires you to literally gear up before you can do certain later content. That, in my book, is a real gear treadmill. GW2 doesn’t require you to have ascended to even do most of the content. You could even get to fractals 15-18 without agony resistance, but by the time you get to that level, you probably already have enough relics to get some.

Ascended gear was to add more endgame content, but without imbalancing the other parts of the game. That’s why it has agony, which is only a stat that works in fractals. The stat bonus of 10% from exotics is hardly going to give you an edge in WvW or normal dungeons. It’s a nice extra boost, but I can do both of those with 80 Rares (and I even played with 78 Exotics for 2 months before I bothered gearing).

People are always going to want more and more. That’s what they expect out of an MMO. They expect it to grow and expand, offering them something new overtime. Anyone knows that you have to keep making content or else your players will reach the end and stop… It’s not like you can expect them to release a final version of the game and then stop developing. But unlike other MMOs, GW2’s progression is like a small slope. You don’t have to try hard to get near the top of that slope, and if you decide to stop for a couple months and come back, you’re not going to be behind at all. That’s the key point here, and the key difference between their “carrot” and other MMO’s carrots… If GW2 was the type of game that required me to play constantly, I would be on the same bandwagon as you, but I can see that it’s not. There’s still a sense of progression and growth, but it’s not major enough to make me worried that I’ll be left behind if I stop.

Yes we could have easily stopped with green or blue gear. Provided the game was balanced around it. That s how GW1 worked. GW2 was advertised as having more item rarity levels and noone had a problem with that since that was clearly stated and explained. It was also explained how legendaries wouldnt be better than exotics and that you wouldnt have to grind for stats.

Better stats on gear is not content. Dungeons are content, quests are content, new areas and adventures are content.

Ascended gear imbalanced all content in the game – it made it easier. If it only had an infusion slot for agony it would be ok but it is simply better in all rest of the game
Adding levels into the game would imbalance it less than ascended gear since you are downscaled.

Now here s where you are completely wrong: MMOs do not require stat progression. It is a false perception of MMOs just as that you need a holy trinity or need to have quests or mounts in an MMO. Or any other “must be like WoW” things. You can achieve progression trough many other means many of which ANET demonstrated in GW1 yet have for some reason went back on in GW2. Yes GW2 is in many aspects a step back than its revolutionary predecessor.

If you stopped playing GW1 and came back in a year or ten you would have the exact same stats as everyone else. If you stopped playing GW2 a month after release and came back two you would be behind anyone who got a single ascended piece. Sure it wouldnt be by much but it is what it is: gear progression.
And you know why that is bad? It devalues your work. Imagine someone who spent real money to buy himself a set of max stat jewellery just a week before nov 15th. or someone who poured all their free time into getting it?
I m not one of those people but how are they less important than someone who wants to keep playing 24/7 just to have that extra +5 on his stats?

Many of us who supported ANET for many years, who spread the word of this great MMO that was to destroy the many stereotypes simply do not want a perpetual hamster wheel. No matter how slow its turning. The game is called Guild Wars 2 not World of Guild Wars for what its worth.

SonicTHI.3217:

Snip.

So how isn’t ascended not inline with what GW2 started with if they had ascended when it released, and they finished fleshing out how ascended can be obtain? Legendary would have the same stats as ascended, and ascended would be just another rarity after exotics. I know the way Anet introduced the incomplete Ascended caused people to be angry, but in a year (assuming they add more ways for ascended items to be obtain), it shouldn’t be an issue anymore.

I’m not saying better stats is content. I’ve just said that MMOs usually change bit by bit overtime, and more content (whatever content is), is added. I’ve never said MMOs require stats progression. I said they require progression. I wasn’t specific on what progression was because it comes in many type of forms. Regarding GW2 being a step back, who are we to judge what design aspects are a step back or forward? As far as I know, the gear progression is a matter of taste. GW2 isn’t a full blown out gear treadmill like WoW where ramping up one level of speed forces you to jump up a gap, but it isn’t a flat treadmill like GW1. I always saw GW2’s progression as a nice, barely increasing slope. Actually, I wouldn’t even call it a treadmill. I see it as a hill, a really long and barely sloped hill. You can start at the bottom and go up the slope without difficulty and almost naturally. Since GW2 is still growing and changing, I’m not yet at the top of the slope, and I prefer not to be at the top yet. But, you see this slope is very small, so even if I stop for a year and come back, my friends and any players who kept playing will still be in my sight. I can just run and catch up to them without difficulty. I’m not required to pick up new gear and regear immediately to enjoy the game with them, am I? I see the same for ascended, once they finish up increasing the ways to obtain ascended, it’ll just be like the continuation of this nice and relatively low sloped hill.

I know from the start that GW2 was different from GW1, design-wise because of the levels and the gearing. And it’s still the same now. I think some GW1 players were expecting GW2 to be exactly the same, but it’s not. It’s a different game from GW1, and it’s a different game from WoW. I still say it’s closer to GW1 due to the relatively horizontal progression (well, more of a really small slope), but even with the tiny gear progression GW2 has, it’s not even close to WoW’s gear progression.

The current GW2’s gear progression can hardly be called devaluing though. All my characters still wear 80 Exotics, and I sure don’t mind seeing others with fractal parts. They had to play for it right? I know that I’ll have the same parts as them, and it’s not going to affect me personally unless I chose to let it affect me. When you talk about devaluing, that’s a touchy subject. I can argue the same about GW1: What if I’ve been playing for years, and when new players come in, they max out their stats and stuff in a month? How would I feel? Would I feel like my loyalty to the game was betrayed? As far as I can see, having horizontal progression can devalue players who have been on the game long too. Now, GW2 takes a middle road on this. They offer slight progression so if you’ve been here long, you do have some pride. Since the progression is only slight, people who take long breaks can jump right back in without feeling left behind while the dedicated groups of players will have a small edge (very small).

The gear treadmill was good at rewarding players who play the game often. While the horizontal progression from GW1 was great for people who stop and come back from time to time, that was also a negative in itself.
These games have polar opposite aspects, and both of them were decently popular, but not without issues of their own. GW2 takes the middle path, albeit it is closer to the GW1 side.

I already explained to you why your point about ascended gear being available at launch is pointless. If the gear was in the game according to what was said it would be just another tier and it would have no point since it would have to be almost as easily available as exotics.
In any case i also explained to you that it was not and that it is contradictory to the games design.
What part of this are you still not getting?

So lets say that at some point in the future ascended gear is as easily available as exotics. The people who want better gear again now go and complain. A new tier is introduced again to please these people. How exactly is this good? How does this make everyone happy?
It doesnt matter how slow it is you either have grind and perpetual stat progression (WoW, GW2 post nov 15) or you have finite stat progression (GW1). There is no middle path on this.

As for why stat progression is a step back, why it was introduced and why it is bad for the game, the players etc. go read some articles or watch some vids.

SonicTHI.3217:

I already explained to you why your point about ascended gear being available at launch is pointless. If the gear was in the game according to what was said it would be just another tier and it would have no point since it would have to be almost as easily available as exotics.
In any case i also explained to you that it was not and that it is contradictory to the games design.
What part of this are you still not getting?

So lets say that at some point in the future ascended gear is as easily available as exotics. The people who want better gear again now go and complain. A new tier is introduced again to please these people. How exactly is this good? How does this make everyone happy?
It doesnt matter how slow it is you either have grind and perpetual stat progression (WoW, GW2 post nov 15) or you have finite stat progression (GW1). There is no middle path on this.

As for why stat progression is a step back, why it was introduced and why it is bad for the game, the players etc. go read some articles or watch some vids.

I have read and watched those, and I gave you my own thoughts and opinions on it too. I watched/read articles/videos about why stat progression is good too. It’s a design choice with trade-offs, and I spent time seeing both sides before just blatantly picking one side… Just fyi, I don’t pick either. I think both are great for the groups of people they cater to. There’s no real logical reasoning to pick one over the other, other than just catering to a particular crowd.

What part of my argument did you not get o.O? I’m saying that the current ascended isn’t perfect, but if it had been fleshed out, it wouldn’t have been seen as gear treadmill by some. By the end of the year, it’s not going to be an issue, and I’ll still be playing without feeling left behind. I’m saying something perfectly logical too… but you’re not seeing it? Either way, this argument can’t end if we go in circles, so let’s just leave it as “It’s your vs my opinion, so neither is absolutely right.” I’m saying it’s exactly inline with what is already here at the start, but keep in mind that what was here at the start wasn’t anything like GW1 to begin with. The slight amount of progression is already there to begin with. There is such a thing as something between horizontal and vertical progression, and that’s GW2. It’s neither GW1 or WoW.

-Quick note about saying any stat progression is WoW: This is heavily dependent on the scope. If I were to play GW1, and let’s say I play really really slowly. I’m going to see a gear progression going from level 1 – 20. Now, GW2, in this very narrow scope, it has grind and stats progression 1 – 80. If we change the scope, say we zoom out and look at GW2 in a span of 1-2 years, then GW2’s progression is pretty much horizontal when compared to WoW. You really can’t say GW2’s progression is the same as WoW. It’s highly dependent on the scope.

I mean no disrespect either. I really enjoy discussions and debates, but please think about it in a logical way. Once we stray from logical debate, it will just loop and loop based on our “opinions”. It’s starting to already since neither of us can convince each other and we appear to be both asking each other “What part of my argument did you not get”? I don’t think it’s wise to continue a debate that goes in circle, so let’s just end it at: It’s debatable and is something that is too opinionated to logically arrive at a conclusion.

Remember, a lot of people came here because this is GW2. Not because it’s GW1, and not because it’s WoW, but it’s GW2. Just because the game isn’t like GW1, and original die-hard fans from GW1 don’t like it, that doesn’t mean it is bad. It just means that the game isn’t your cup of coffee. For me, I enjoyed both GW1 and WoW, but neither as much as GW2.

That says it all right? It’s just a cup of coffee. Find the right one, or keep trying this cup until you find that you love its taste.

kenshinakh.3672:

There’s something a lot of people don’t realize.

Let’s think about it just a bit. If Anet already had Ascended gear from the opening day, and they had all the ways to get ascended gear already created, would people still screamed gear treadmill? Or would they have seen it differently and saw ascended gear as something a tiny bit above exotics, with stats like legendaries?

If the acquisition methods (time and effort) followed the pattern we already have? I would have screamed very loudly from the start.
That is besides the point anyway. At the moment not only the ways to obtain ascended gear are exremely limited, not only stats you can get in that tier are limited as well, but also Anet seems to be in no hurry to change that situation. They are perfectly okay with introducing only one small step per month (and not every month, at that) even after they admitted that limiting acquisition methods at start was a huge blunder. It’s as if they really intended them to be a heavy grind, and are introducing other methods only as a backhand method of shutting up discontented people (so they can say “But you have alternate ways to get them! Stop complaining! So what, if it takes one month per item?”).
So, not only the existence of ascended items do not fill me with joy, but the way the Anet handles their introduction is worrying as well.

Red Falcon.8257:

My theory is that Anet realized that the people who followed their initial ideals weren’t enough (probably in the 1.5mil?) and they wanted more players so they introduced traditional MMO features like gear treadmills, daily fetch quests and soon to come blizz-like rated team arenas.
In my opinion this isn’t a good plan for the long run.
By catering to everyone and noone at the same time you have a game that has something for everyone, but a lot everyone won’t like.
And those new players they have gotten by trading in the manifesto early I suspect are people who will jump ship at the next new MMO, so we’ll be left with a community made by “the loyals”… the problem is that to rely on loyals, you need to be loyal to them as well.

But ultimately GW2 hit the market in a moment where nobody has anything of quality ready with a product that is of high quality and developed for years; with no real competitors, they can do whatever they want.
It’ll be years before anything remotely comparable comes out, so they rule like that and we don’t have any option (unless you want to go play those ridiculous MMOs there are around).

By market standards this is “success”.

Jebus Falcon, you posted my exact sentiments.

Well said.

Dee Jay.2460:

I think in retrospect ANet was a bit disappointed in how readily available Exotic gear is in game. You can buy it off the TP for a few Gold, 42k Karma isn’t all that much either in today’s GW2 etc. etc.

Why would they be, GW1 had max level gear available even easier (and it became even easier with EotN).

People do need a little grind in endgame otherwise gear doesn’t feel like an accomplishment.

People need fun and challenging content that feels like an accomplishment when completed successfully.

nightwulf.1986:

…I still think that it’s a game that GW1 vets can appreciate even with item/level progression. …

I don’t, actually. GW1 had far more interesting combat, missions with diverse goals, each one requiring different approach. GW2 lacks that. If they’d kept GW1’s missions and made the rest non-instanced open world, with events and hearts, it would have been much, much better.

Ah well, the new Tombraider is about to be released.

kenshinakh.3672:

snip

I already told you why your argument is invalid. Things will not be fine in a year. You are giving me opinions, i am giving you facts. You only see till the point of “when ascended gear is fully implemented” i see beyond that and yet you are completely ignoring my points.
Stat progression requires grind. When you take out the grind people attain this new level and you have no stat progression till you turn the wheel again. It is a system that in order to please some people makes others unhappy. It cycles those two states in the end pleasing noone.

You are again confusing stat progression and item rarities. Adding another tier past the original concept is not inline with what we had. It is completely different. It is adding progression instead of having a finite stat level. Yes there can be progression leading to that finite stat level but what matters is that there is a finite stat level.
With a finite stat level playing the game becomes the players choice, not a grind for better stats. It gives players the option to get different stats, to experiment builds and different areas of the game instead of just chasing the next best gear.

You are twisting my words: “You really can’t say GW2’s progression is the same as WoW.” When i clearly state that it is a matter of having progression or not.
Stat progression is not good for the players. It was put in games as a quick way out in order to keep a vocal minority of raiders happy (and subscribed) because it is a very easy reward to make. It is also not good for the game as it affects the difficulty.

And yes a lot of people came here because this game was advertised by us the players of Guild Wars to other players. Guild Wars players made this game possible. Does that mean ANET can just shove us off now just to attract more players? Sure they can but abandoning your core player base is folly. Catering to everyone simply isnt possible.

I already told you why your argument against my argument isn’t valid either. That’s precisely why I said this debate goes no where. I’m not giving you just random opinions, and neither are you giving me facts. Your facts are skewed towards your own bias. If you can’t accept the possibility of being wrong, then what’s the point in debating? All I’m giving you is my humble opinion that I arrived through heavily analyzing things and rationally thinking through.

So let’s go back to the root of why we got the game. You know why I bought this game in the first place? It’s to enjoy what the game has to offer over years to come with my friends, without worrying about being left behind if any of us suddenly become busy with life and work and have to go on haitus for a month or more. It’s not because it was “horizontal progression only” (and I really don’t remember seeing GW2 advertise as that), and neither is it because it’s GW2, from GW1. Now, let’s look at ascended. Does Ascended break that deal for me or my friends? No, and one of my friends even went on a one month haitus to catch up on work. He came back just a few days ago and we’re back in running dungeons and WvW for fun. Yes, for fun and we don’t feel like we missed out on anything, and neither do we feel the same as you do with ascended gear and the slight gear progression there will be. Is that because we’re completely ignorant? No, definitely no. We’re highly intellectual people and most of us are working and/or working on a degree in college. Of course, that doesn’t mean anything, but we do have quite an extensive amount of experience in games due to playing various types of games for so long.

Now, back to adding item tiers. You’re making it such a big deal when it’s not. At the rate GW2 introduces it’s “gear treadmill” (note that I put it in quotes because that’s not a real gear treadmill when compared to WoW and other games that actually use it extensively), you’re probably get an increase in top level stats of 10% every year or more.

Don’t forget – a lot of people came here from other games regardless of GW1 players or not. I was a GW1 players, but my friends who didn’t play GW1 at all, they were even more enthusiastic about GW2 and were the one to get me into it. You’re also forgetting that there are people who didn’t like GW1, but loved GW2, and there’s quite a lot.

And, here you’re twisting my words by saying it’s a matter of having progression or not. That’s not the point. I already said in previous debates that progression was evident when GW2 was first released, but even so, it’s not the same type of progression as WoW. You can’t just say “it’s either off or on”. The world isn’t just black and white, true and false you know? There are greyzones. And that’s where GW2 placed itself in regards to gear progression. It’s not exactly horizontal, but neither is it a treadmill requiring you to keep moving up and up with the fear of being left behind.

You state that stat progression is not good, and you state it as if it is a true fact. This is where your argument’s main flaw is, and I’ve been trying to tell you that you shouldn’t just force an opinion on people just because you believe it is true. There are no facts or scientifically proven info about stat progression being bad. WoW and so many other MMOs are proof of it. It’s just a matter of design and what players like or dislike.

And if you think fractals are just a quick way out to keep vocal minority players happy, you’re quite wrong. The most loud and obnoxious players are the horizontal progression die-hards, qqers in thief forum, and extremist “casuals”. I hardly heard people before fractals wanting raids and stuff compared to the other complaints. Why? Well… obvoiusly most of the player base are casuals. Get this though… your average casual does not actually visit the forums and they don’t complain about manifesto breaking or fractals. They just play the game, and they notice they’re not really at a disadvantage if they don’t play fractals, so they just keep playing. However, you do have your horizontal progression elitists (for lack of better word), that will complain at ANY sign of gear progression, no matter how small or insignificant.

I’m talking to you from a middle ground. I like both horizontal and vertical gear progression, and I can see the trade off between both. Right now, you’re being really stubborn, and I can’t debate against that because no amount of logic will change your opinion. I’m just saying, “Dude, think what you want, you’re neither right nor wrong in this case. I’m still going to enjoy this game for years on end because I like it, and it’s still fundamentally the same game that I bought it for, but at the same time, it evolves and keeps on adding more content for me and my friends. A living mmo? Possibly.”

SonicTHI.3217:

The smart (and devious) thing ANET is doing though is slowly leaking this tier in a sense of dangling just a piece of the carrot in front of these people.

Yes. It will feel quite natural by the time they slide the level cap increase in and actually invalidate all the current gear.

It’s quite an effective method of covering up the fact that they’re implementing the same gear cycling WoW employs, but without all the premiere content (raids, elite mode dungeons, etc).

kenshinakh.3672:

Now, back to adding item tiers. You’re making it such a big deal when it’s not. At the rate GW2 introduces it’s “gear treadmill” (note that I put it in quotes because that’s not a real gear treadmill when compared to WoW and other games that actually use it extensively), you’re probably get an increase in top level stats of 10% every year or more.

The biggest step is always with the level cap increase, not so much with the gear at cap. That’s the step which invalidates all that you’ve been working on up til this point. That’s when you begin repeating the motions and it officially becomes a treadmill.

kenshinakh.3672:

It’s not exactly horizontal, but neither is it a treadmill requiring you to keep moving up and up with the fear of being left behind.

Actually, that’s exactly where it’s going. At some point, you won’t be able to find the fractal groups necessary to get your backpack, or have enough dailies left to farm laurels before the level cap increases, and so on with each ascended slot they release.

kenshinakh.3672:

I’m just saying, "Dude, think what you want, you’re neither right nor wrong in this case.

Your wall of text says otherwise.

kenshinakh.3672:

A living mmo? Possibly."

That was just a marketing line.

Ansultares.1567:

kenshinakh.3672:

Now, back to adding item tiers. You’re making it such a big deal when it’s not. At the rate GW2 introduces it’s “gear treadmill” (note that I put it in quotes because that’s not a real gear treadmill when compared to WoW and other games that actually use it extensively), you’re probably get an increase in top level stats of 10% every year or more.

The biggest step is always with the level cap increase, not so much with the gear at cap. That’s the step which invalidates all that you’ve been working on up til this point. That’s when you begin repeating the motions and it officially becomes a treadmill.

Ansultares.1567:

kenshinakh.3672:

It’s not exactly horizontal, but neither is it a treadmill requiring you to keep moving up and up with the fear of being left behind.

Actually, that’s exactly where it’s going. At some point, you won’t be able to find the fractal groups necessary to get your backpack, or have enough dailies left to farm laurels before the level cap increases, and so on with each ascended slot they release.

I’m still able to find low level groups if that is what you’re asking. But the thing you have to consider is the slope of the treadmill. The slope is really important when it comes to gear treadmills. I don’t see GW2 being like some games that requires me to game every day or so to keep up. In GW2, I could probably login every 6 months, play a lot for a week, and then stop with decently high end gear, and I wouldn’t be jumping far to catch up either. That’s the gear treadmill I’m defining, not the one GW2 has, which again… is not a gear treadmill if you go ask people who played MMOs where gear treadmills are used to the extreme.

Ansultares.1567:

kenshinakh.3672:

I’m just saying, "Dude, think what you want, you’re neither right nor wrong in this case.

Your wall of text says otherwise.

I write a lot, in hopes of making it clear that I’m not ignoring his questions or thoughts. My ending sentence though is meant to say “Despite all that I just said… it doesn’t matter who’s right or wrong. Let’s just drop it and let the thread die for the sake of not wasting time going in circles.” He didn’t drop it though and chose to reply to me specifically, so I bit, and replied.

Ansultares.1567:

kenshinakh.3672:

A living mmo? Possibly."

That was just a marketing line.

[/quote]
There’s truth in marketing lines. It all depends on your perspective. Though, I didn’t say it was a living mmo. I just said it’s a possibililty because I got a different definition of living mmo.

kenshinakh.3672:

The slope is really important when it comes to gear treadmills. I don’t see GW2 being like some games that requires me to game every day or so to keep up. In GW2, I could probably login every 6 months, play a lot for a week, and then stop with decently high end gear, and I wouldn’t be jumping far to catch up either.

Not at all. It’s one month of logging in once a day to get an ascended amulet, for example. It will never be less than that. Taking a six month break, and coming back for a week, will not afford you new gear because all the new gear is calendar-gated, and you’ll be six months behind everyone else who has been running the daily progression mill.

And the reward for logging in once a day to do your calisthenics for six months straight? A level cap increase that invalidates all your gear.

kenshinakh.3672:

That’s the gear treadmill I’m defining, not the one GW2 has, which again… is not a gear treadmill if you go ask people who played MMOs where gear treadmills are used to the extreme.

I wouldn’t use Korean MMOs as a comparison, and as far as I’ve heard, WoW could conceivably accommodate your six month break and one week return. Actually, WoW’s reached a point where six month breaks and one month returns are standard procedure, to the point where I know this because I’ve seen WoW kiddies running around spouting that nonsense on other forums as if it would be acceptable in other games.

kenshinakh.3672:

I write a lot, in hopes of making it clear that I’m not ignoring his questions or thoughts.

The best way to make things clearer is to read what you wrote and edit it to be clearer and more concise; this also has the added benefit of reducing the size of any walls of text.

kenshinakh.3672:

There’s truth in marketing lines. It all depends on your perspective.

I’m sure you’re their target audience. Incidentally, I have a bridge to sell.

Red Falcon.8257:

My theory is that Anet realized that the people who followed their initial ideals weren’t enough (probably in the 1.5mil?) and they wanted more players so they introduced traditional MMO features like gear treadmills, daily fetch quests and soon to come blizz-like rated team arenas.
In my opinion this isn’t a good plan for the long run.
By catering to everyone and noone at the same time you have a game that has something for everyone, but a lot everyone won’t like.
And those new players they have gotten by trading in the manifesto early I suspect are people who will jump ship at the next new MMO, so we’ll be left with a community made by “the loyals”… the problem is that to rely on loyals, you need to be loyal to them as well.

But ultimately GW2 hit the market in a moment where nobody has anything of quality ready with a product that is of high quality and developed for years; with no real competitors, they can do whatever they want.
It’ll be years before anything remotely comparable comes out, so they rule like that and we don’t have any option (unless you want to go play those ridiculous MMOs there are around).

By market standards this is “success”.

Well they’ve lost LOTS of loyals who would have stayed with their game if they had catered to them like every prelaunch interview was telling us. There are some titles coming out that will give them a run for their money and sure they have some things in those titles that people liked leaving behind but they also are giving the things people want in their game that Anet has slowly destroyed, reward for time spent is one big one and It’s why people like me who wanted this game to be his new online home are leaving disappointed.

I’m frankly quite tired of not having the things I was told in their interview questionaires about the direction this game was heading. I’m tired of being told we’re working on it when it comes to the issues of loot and DR instead of pressing the reset button of crafting being left by the wayside, and I’m frankly tired of the lack of content in the form of DE Meta’s which were supposed to be the real focus of this game.

Ascended gear higher stats is just the icing honestly.

I’m not one of those who bounces from game to game, I spend hours researching everything I can about a game especially an MMO before buying. What they did in November….. words cannot express my frustration at this point. Lack of trust.

kenshinakh.3672:

… In GW2, I could probably login every 6 months, play a lot for a week, and then stop with decently high end gear, and I wouldn’t be jumping far to catch up either.

Really? you think you can get 6 months worth of ascended gear in a week, six months from now. The trinkets are about a month of dailies each, what do you think the armor peices are going to take?

frans.8092:

kenshinakh.3672:

… In GW2, I could probably login every 6 months, play a lot for a week, and then stop with decently high end gear, and I wouldn’t be jumping far to catch up either.

Really? you think you can get 6 months worth of ascended gear in a week, six months from now. The trinkets are about a month of dailies each, what do you think the armor peices are going to take?

No, I didn’t mean to say that I will be fully geared with the best. I meant that I can decently gear myself out in a week to play on a level field with others. Maybe it’s bits and parts from exotics and ascended, but whatever it is, the end result is me feeling like I’m within acceptable margins of the current max.

kenshinakh.3672:

…

You are giving me your opinions without addressing any of the points i made just going on and on on how these are opinions and repeating the same thing over and over. I addressed your opinions and told you why you are wrong. You ve not done the same.

You say you ve done your research and analysed this with logical thinking. Well you are obviously missing important facts and your opinion is flawed. Seriously read my posts again and go read some articles on psychology, MMO game design and ANET blog posts and interviews.

Here s two quotes that you imply were never said:

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”

-Mike Obrien, President of Arenanet

http://venturebeat.com/2012/05/21/guild-wars-2-interview-monetization/

Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you dont need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but its not required to play the game. We dont need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who dont are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

Colin Johanson

http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success

How do ascended items have a unique look? How are they not the best? How are exotics just as powerful as ascended items? How was this game designed with stat progression in mind? How does ascended gear fit into these statements? Please tell me with all your logic how i am wrong.

The game is called Guild Wars 2. It was made because ANET figured they could do so much more with an upgraded engine and promised us supporting GW1 players they ll do right by us if we only give them time and trust. Have they? Do you now get why ascended gear is such a big deal and will (with stat progression) forever be an issue in this game?

kenshinakh.3672:

frans.8092:

kenshinakh.3672:

… In GW2, I could probably login every 6 months, play a lot for a week, and then stop with decently high end gear, and I wouldn’t be jumping far to catch up either.

Really? you think you can get 6 months worth of ascended gear in a week, six months from now. The trinkets are about a month of dailies each, what do you think the armor peices are going to take?

No, I didn’t mean to say that I will be fully geared with the best. I meant that I can decently gear myself out in a week to play on a level field with others. Maybe it’s bits and parts from exotics and ascended, but whatever it is, the end result is me feeling like I’m within acceptable margins of the current max.

Would being at around -10% be acceptable for you? Assuming that the people around you couldn’t get a full set in 6 months either.

I would just like to reiterate that I have no problem with agony resistance. I take issue with additional stat increases to a game that appears to be initially balanced around exotics.

I am under no illusion that GW1 had vertical progression. This was in the form of title tiers. As a title was increased, it often added strength to associated PvE skills. Some titles even offered resistances to certain enemies and increased power when attacking those enemies.

I’m just wondering why we would attach these buffs to gear tiers (which is contentious) as opposed to title tiers. You would still be able to add the vertical progression without additional gear tiers OR additional levels (another topic for another time).

You could also avoid a lot of the controversy.

Dante.1508:

Conner.4702:

Halandir.3609:

SpyderArachnid.5619:

It basically boils down to this.

People from the traditional mindset of other MMOs complained enough that GW2 wasn’t like other MMOs, so Anet caved in to them and gave them what other MMOs already offer them instead of staying true to themselves.

So basically Anet gave a vocal minority a gear treadmill and will continue to add more tiers in the future to appease those who don’t like GW2 for what it was.

No need to blame those people.
The only ones to blame here are Anet: Ascended gear and FotM was planned/designed before launch but I am guessing that Anet just kept quiet about it because they knew a lot of their old fans would stay away if we had known the facts about ascended gear.

At least they were decent enough to introduce it early on – Saves me money that I can spend on other games. With the introduction of ascended gear and the promise of future extra levels and more gear progression I am no longer spending anything on Anet products.
I am just one customer and many seem to really enjoy FotM and gear progression. In the end Anet’s decision may have been the best from a business perspective.

I am not complaining. I got my moneys worth – I just refrain from funding the future of statprogression in GW2 because to me it is/was totally unnecessary.

And that is what I very much doubt. If ascended gear had been planned from the start they would have added a lot more venues to obtain it from by now. Ascended gear was a last minute addition to the karka/fotm update. Everything reeks of it never have been given any proper thought.

Exactly how i feel, Ascended felt very tacked on, hard to believe it was intended to be honest..
I really hope FotM and Ascended just get pushed to the background and the rest of the game continue on/get revamped accordingly following pre Nov 15th manifesto, we can then all look at FoTM and Ascended as a failed experiment and strive for a better Guildwars 2 with horizontal progression as per Guildwars 1..

+1 to this. I very much hope this happens. Even though I did not play GW1, I am a WoW transplant…I dont want verti progression in this game.

With that said, all of this “ascended” talk…I feel like I am playing Rift! Is Trion the developer here?! Regulos?! Seriously, the name for this tier is silly.

All of your “what it boils down to” is incorrect people.

Here is what it really boils down to :
-In all manifestos, videos, interviews, and impressions that we had of GW2 it was to be a cosmetic grind. No where ever did they mention verticle progression. Colin and(I think Mike) are sitting on stools talking about Legendaries. Mike says something to the effect of “Legendaries have no statistical advantage over a exotic”. Yet, when they release ascended weapons, legendaries will be higher than exotics. Check out the video. Its around the web somewhere.
-According to Chris Whiteside, ascended gear was always meant to be in the game. It was just not ready for whatever reason, possibly because FoTM was not ready. So it wasn’t put in the game at release.
-Three months later, we have ascended. We feel ‘gear treadmilled’. People say the increases is nothing…but you do not understand. We wanted to have our BiS gear and simply transmute skins. Thats it! We didnt want to have to worry that another piece of gear out there was even slightly better. Its not how the human mind works. Sorry. We are not perfect.
-Two months after Ascended back/rings, we get amulets. We buy this with laurels. We can buy rings with laurels. Yet we cannot buy amulets with fractal relics. Unbelievably STUPID oversight. The gear has an infusion slot SPECIFIC to Fractals. Yet you cannot buy this gear with tokens you get from the dungeon. What..the..heck?
-They have said they are not shy from increasing level cap. Which means new level cap gear. FOREWARING: INTRODUCE ASCENDED GEAR WITH THE NEW EXPANSION ALL AT ONCE OR YOUR TRUE COLORS WILL BE REVEALED. Do not make us grind for new gear every few months. If Ascended gear was intentional, just not ready for release, it sure as heck will be ready for a new expansion. Put it all in there all at once, obtainable from any portion of the game. Only then will we believe the notion that it was intended gear and not just to appease the verti-progressive people.

Im done with my 2 cents. Honest 2 cents.

Great game still, by the way. Just don’t mess with the core of it.

Vorch.2985:

I would just like to reiterate that I have no problem with agony resistance. I take issue with additional stat increases to a game that appears to be initially balanced around exotics.

I am under no illusion that GW1 had vertical progression. This was in the form of title tiers. As a title was increased, it often added strength to associated PvE skills. Some titles even offered resistances to certain enemies and increased power when attacking those enemies.

I’m just wondering why we would attach these buffs to gear tiers (which is contentious) as opposed to title tiers. You would still be able to add the vertical progression without additional gear tiers OR additional levels (another topic for another time).

You could also avoid a lot of the controversy.

They first said ascended gear was meant to be in the game at release. Then in their blog they mentioned it was to bridge the gap between exotic and legendary(what gap? Time gap? Legendaries are SUPPOSED to take a LONGGGGGGG time).

Ok, now that we have that staight..a simple solution:

Introduce a new dungeon with an agony mechanic that is only mitigated via a specific resistance.
Introduce “enchantment” type of scrolls that enchant your already existing exotic gear. Make these enchantments available via the same method that ascended gear is now. Basically swap out ascended gear for this enchantment, only the enchantments do not have stats. They only have agony resist. Make the enchantment craftable via artificing as well?

Problem solved, for nearly everyone. Even those elitist PVE players. Heres your endless dungeon. Go grind out these fractal enchantments if you want to keep PROGRESSING.

Ofcourse, I have no idea how they would do this now… Arenanet should really take a look at this post.

Because it’s not just agony that gets harder at higher fractals, all damage and resistances scale up as you get higher level. So that small stat boosts really help.
And treadmill, sort of.
Let’s be honest guys, it’s really NOT hard to get ascended gear. I geared out 2 characters with rings and backpacks in just two weeks of doing nothing but the daily.

Quick Mouse.7635:

Because it’s not just agony that gets harder at higher fractals, all damage and resistances scale up as you get higher level. So that small stat boosts really help.
And treadmill, sort of.
Let’s be honest guys, it’s really NOT hard to get ascended gear. I geared out 2 characters with rings and backpacks in just two weeks of doing nothing but the daily.

Who cares if their damage and resistances go up as the level goes up? THAT’S THE POINT. The point is for it to get harder. And then you add equipment with better stats so you’re stronger, negating the entire point of it, while making the rest of the content in the game easier.

They put in the higher stats to try to appeal to the locusts, who can never be appeased, and threw the loyal GW1 veterans overboard in the process. Simple as that.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

<snip>
They put in the higher stats to try to appeal to the locusts, who can never be appeased, and threw the loyal GW1 veterans overboard in the process. Simple as that.

And such people will always require another tier of stats once they tire of the current level.

I don’t mind a gear grind game, when it’s developped and announced as such.
When snuck in, in a patch, then it becomes an issue for me – and especially when not introduced along side all the acquisition avenues at once such as via WvW but only FotM (yeah, that acronym is so ironic it can only be intended).

The change to allow all play-styles getting it is still waiting and frankly just proves this was not something thought up at launch, but patched in to fill a need for a specific player segment at the cost of other player segments.

I totally agree with this post.

I’d just like to share my own experience :

I bought this game without knowing at all what GW 1 was about. I watched acouple of streams about it and it seemed alright.
No monthly pay ? Finally a company that wont try to bleed me dry.

I did play linage 2, Ragnarok Lunia (which was fine in my book) and a bunch of other MMOs i can’t even remember.
All i know is that i hated the gear and level grind so horribly. So, so horribly.

Just looking up at some search engine that the sword or what ever that i need to keep on actually enjoying the game is gonna drop from this monster or that at a 0.00042% brought me to tears. I’ll have a better chances of a comet hitting my house.

The first thing i noticed about this game when i started was the graphics. Man, i love them. I still do. They’re awesome. Very bright and colorful.
The personal storys were awesome ( i skipped through the text,but the whole mission idea with an item choice at the end was sweet).

Then i found out you can pretty much get any gear you wanted by a decent amount of work, and the end result would be assured. (Karma vendors and later on dungeons).
And the black lion..lol. i remember walking around in linage 2 where everyone was setting shop EVERY where, making my FPS drop to like 5. You couldn’t find anything either.

So i work my way up to 80 ( having a great time all the way), figured out dungeons and started running them. Got my gear up and finally could sit on my chair, doing spvp ,WvWvW and dungeons to my heart’s content.

Then out of nowhere they drop these new dungeons (I like them really, although why must i run 3 of them in a row to see decent reward,why not 1?)
and another tier of gear.

Why? Why is there a need for a new tier? Everything was round and nice at lvl 80. The PVE challenge was just fine, and so was WvW. What difference does it make in the long run if i had 2 armor before and player number 2 had 2 damage and now i have 3 armor and he has 3 damage? What’s the point?

Again i’m not that knowledgeable in GW 1 ,but i heard that had like 2000 + skills. Now that’s the way to go!
A build isn’t the sword you wield, it’s the technique you wield it with.
More gadgets to engineers. More fighting styles to warriors. More blessings to guardians. More parlor tricks for mesmers. And so on.

Just my 2 cents : I .

P. S. And if i see signs of this kind of gear progression continues in the future, i just gonna stand up and leave.
I’m not mad. I got my money’s – worth out of the game.

I’m a 24 year old student in my second year of Molecular- biology , i don’t have time for a grind-fest, Nor do i wish to partake in one.

I’m convinced all of the people screaming “GRINDFEST” haven’t played an MMO from the last 8 years. If you think this is a treadmill, or a forced gear grind for best stats to be competitive, go play WoW, or Rift, or Swtor, or AoC, or Lotro.

Enjoy your month of 1 to X leveling grind, followed by a week or two of dungeon running to gear up for raids, to gear up for hard-mode raids, only to have all that work be invalidated by the time you finally get 75% BiS by the next content patch so you can raid to gear up for hard-mode raids all over again, ad nauseam.

I quit that crap for this game, and it is evident to me that I will never have to run on that kind of treadmill.

There’re my facts.

Quick Mouse.7635:

Let’s be honest guys, it’s really NOT hard to get ascended gear. I geared out 2 characters with rings and backpacks in just two weeks of doing nothing but the daily.

Seeing as how it takes 35 laurels to get just one Ascended ring, gonna call you on that bluff.

Unless you mean “daily Fractals”, in which case I’d point out that by your own assertions, you ran Fractals only twice a day for 14 days (28 runs), and it takes ten runs at Lvl 10+ to get enough Pristine Relics to get a guaranteed ring….meaning you’d need to run the dungeon 40 times (20 days in a row) to get the two rings you wanted on each of your two characters.

So, yeah, sorry but your math doesn’t add up. Either you got random ring drops from your dailies that just so happened to match your build (in other words, you were lucky), or you got rings that don’t match your build but you’re “settling” for them just so you can say you have ascended gear. Or, more likely, you just made a false claim.

I leave it to you to tell us which, but please, spare us the assertions that “it’s not hard to get Ascended gear”, because it was never about how difficult they are to get in the first place. No one is complaining about how hard they are to get, we’re complaining that they exist in the first place.

critickitten.1498:

Quick Mouse.7635:

Let’s be honest guys, it’s really NOT hard to get ascended gear. I geared out 2 characters with rings and backpacks in just two weeks of doing nothing but the daily.

Seeing as how it takes 35 laurels to get just one Ascended ring, gonna call you on that bluff.

Unless you mean “daily Fractals”, in which case I’d point out that by your own assertions, you ran Fractals only twice a day for 14 days (28 runs), and it takes ten runs at Lvl 10+ to get enough Pristine Relics to get a guaranteed ring….meaning you’d need to run the dungeon 40 times (20 days in a row) to get the two rings you wanted on each of your two characters.

So, yeah, sorry but your math doesn’t add up. Either you got random ring drops from your dailies that just so happened to match your build (in other words, you were lucky), or you got rings that don’t match your build but you’re “settling” for them just so you can say you have ascended gear. Or, more likely, you just made a false claim.

I leave it to you to tell us which, but please, spare us the assertions that “it’s not hard to get Ascended gear”, because it was never about how difficult they are to get in the first.

The rarity of gear that was meant to fill a time/effort gap between exotics and legendaries is working as intended? Say it ain’t so.

Mackdose.6504:

The rarity of gear that was meant to fill a time/effort gap between exotics and legendaries is working as intended? Say it ain’t so.

Good job totally misunderstanding the core argument at play in this thread.

If you’re not actually going to try and listen to the opposing argument so that you know what you’re even arguing about, then why bother posting here?

critickitten.1498:

Mackdose.6504:

The rarity of gear that was meant to fill a time/effort gap between exotics and legendaries is working as intended? Say it ain’t so.

Good job totally misunderstanding the core argument at play in this thread.

If you’re not actually going to try and listen to the opposing argument so that you know what you’re even arguing about, then why bother posting here?

The “core argument at play” boils down to:

“My opinion > Your opinion, because my opinions are facts”

You guys are missing real issues with ascended gear, like the fact that it’s 100% bad for altoholics.

Only want to add that there are a lot of comments in this thread by people claiming to know AN’s motivation for adding content like this to the game, whether it’s players complaining about a lack of end-game content and leaving the game because of it or poor sales, or whatever. Hope people are taking these comments with a grain of salt. Don’t believe it unless they can show you hard data to back it up, otherwise it’s just people’s opinion. Lol, just because you know so-and-so and so-and-so who got bored with the game and moved on to something else, don’t automatically assume it’s because the game is shallow – maybe it’s some of the players who are shallow, easily bored and easily distracted by the next new thing, and switching from MMO to MMO every two or three months is a long-term pattern for many of them. You can never please all the people even some of the time.

Mackdose.6504:

The “core argument at play” boils down to:

“My opinion > Your opinion, because my opinions are facts”

Wrong. The core argument at play is “why bother having better stats on Ascended gear if the entire point was to introduce the Agony mechanic?”.

Granted, it’s somewhat flawed since the second stated reason for Ascended gear was to “bridge the gap” between Exotic and Legendary….but on the other hand, there was no actual statistical gap between those two sets of gear whatsoever. The only “gap” was a perceived gap in the amount of grinding, which….was supposed to be the point, I’m pretty sure.

So the question being asked is entirely fair: why bother increasing the stats?

If you’re not going to read the discussion, don’t bother posting in it.

If they release it, hope its re-imagined sets from GW 1. Elite Sunspear for light armor types please!