Guild Wars 2

You can’t farm for leather any more easily than you can farm for cloth, but leather prices are still low. So it doesn’t look like the farmability of silk is the driving factor behind the price. (At the end of the day, most people who play the game do so to have fun, not to farm like a crazy fool all day.)

It’s the overly onerous amounts of silk required for light ascended armor that is pushing the price up. If you ignore the trading post, it takes significantly more “normal” playing time to craft it than the medium or heavy equivalents.

It may seem like a good idea from an economics point of view to have some materials worth a lot more than others, but making it so light armor wearers have a much harder time crafting their armor wasn’t really a fair way of doing it.

Things like Silver Doubloons being hard to come by aren’t such a problem, because Juggernaut is a luxury item, as opposed to being the only way to get a Best In Class hammer.

John Smith.4610:

Sounds to me like two independent issues being discussed.
1. Aggregate price for silk and market velocity
2. Farming for individual mats is hard

I would argue that these issues aren’t actually related and shouldn’t be discussed as if they were.

reading the op, the discussion is about why the cost of silk is high, within the context of damask.

when truely examining cost, one most consider not only the price in gold, but the price in time, or price in effort.

regardless, there is an imbalance in the price of silk, and the price of other basic materials, within their total costs with respect to ascended crafting

elonian cord, basic material cost 49.5 silver
mithrillium basic material cost 49.5 silver
spool of silk basic material cost 7.3 gold or 730 silver

now, i would argue that how hard an item is to obtain effects its cost, but regardless, within the context of ascended crafting silk is grossly unbalanced in terms of gold cost.

ConfusedDave.4271:

You can’t farm for leather any more easily than you can farm for cloth, but leather prices are still low. So it doesn’t look like the farmability of silk is the driving factor behind the price. (At the end of the day, most people who play the game do so to have fun, not to farm like a crazy fool all day.)

It’s the overly onerous amounts of silk required for light ascended armor that is pushing the price up. If you ignore the trading post, it takes significantly more “normal” playing time to craft it than the medium or heavy equivalents.

It may seem like a good idea from an economics point of view to have some materials worth a lot more than others, but making it so light armor wearers have a much harder time crafting their armor wasn’t really a fair way of doing it.

Things like Silver Doubloons being hard to come by aren’t such a problem, because Juggernaut is a luxury item, as opposed to being the only way to get a Best In Class hammer.

there is more than one variable which effects cost.

I read John Smith write in another thread that he liked to compare outcome with predictions – and I can’t help but wonder if silk behaved the way predicted (when ascended armor came out).

I was shocked myself when I did the math and realized the, at least to me, enormous amount of silk scrap needed to make ascended armor sets.

Not only did than change the recipe for silk bolts from 2 scraps to 3 scraps, they also made Bolt of Damask break pattern and use 100 silk bolts. And then the Bolts of Damask are used heavily for every armor type. After all, even leather and heavy armor takes more Bolts of Damask than the metal or leather corresponding parts…

I guess that the prices we players are willing to pay on the trade post isn’t really a target for Anet but to me it seems that those Changes in recipes put a little too much preassure on silk scraps. That sudden supply-shock introduced by Anet during Wintersday does indicate, at least to me, some do agree we need a higher supply in-game.

phys.7689:

when truely examining cost, one most consider not only the price in gold, but the price in time, or price in effort.
…
now, i would argue that how hard an item is to obtain effects its cost, but regardless, within the context of ascended crafting silk is grossly unbalanced in terms of gold cost.

Indeed. My view is that the high price in gold is caused by the price in time/effort to obtain Damask being balanced too high.

The fact that it is hard to obtain, coupled with the fact that a lot of it is required is what pushes up the price, because very few people have the patience to make them without buying at least some of the raw materials off the trading post.

My problem is not the cost or the grind. It’s a high tier armor after all.
What I dislike is the imbalance between the different armor-classes.
Heavy armor needs 25 bolts of damask and 16 deldrimor steel ingots.
Medium armor needs 24 bolts of damask and 18 elonian leather squares.
Light armor needs 36(!!!) bolts of damask and 6 elonian leather squares.

So not only do you need the most of the most expensive material for light armor, but you will also need the longest time of at least 36 days to craft your armor, if you craft all mats yourself.

I got a suggestion on how to equalize and spread the costs for the materials you need for ascended crafting:
Insignias could be made with one of each(damask, elonian leather and deldrimor steel), instead of three bolts of damask.

tekfan.3179:

I got a suggestion on how to equalize and spread the costs for the materials you need for ascended crafting:
Insignias could be made with one of each(damask, elonian leather and deldrimor steel), instead of three bolts of damask.

That would close the disparity greatly, but it may end up shifting the pressure to heavy armor.

Deldrimor steel is used extremely heavily in crafting ascended weapons, while damask is not used at all and elonian leather used very rarely (in bows only).

tekfan.3179:

My problem is not the cost or the grind. It’s a high tier armor after all.
What I dislike is the imbalance between the different armor-classes.
Heavy armor needs 25 bolts of damask and 16 deldrimor steel ingots.
Medium armor needs 24 bolts of damask and 18 elonian leather squares.
Light armor needs 36(!!!) bolts of damask and 6 elonian leather squares.

So not only do you need the most of the most expensive material for light armor, but you will also need the longest time of at least 36 days to craft your armor, if you craft all mats yourself.

I got a suggestion on how to equalize and spread the costs for the materials you need for ascended crafting:
Insignias could be made with one of each(damask, elonian leather and deldrimor steel), instead of three bolts of damask.

i think it would be better if it could be made with any one of the materials.

i would really be interested to see how the price would be affected.
im thinking damask would still be the most expensive due to increase material costs, but a lot less drastic a difference.

Shiyo.3578:

There’s no reason for silk to take 100 per ascended mat when it’s over 4x the price of other ascended mats.

There is no reason for silk not to take 100 per ascended mat because it’s 2x the price of other ascended mats either.

Obtena.7952:

Shiyo.3578:

There’s no reason for silk to take 100 per ascended mat when it’s over 4x the price of other ascended mats.

There is no reason for silk not to take 100 per ascended mat because it’s 2x the price of other ascended mats either.

yes there is
game balance with respect to effort required to progress with your charachter.
the current ascended system basically says progressing on cloth class is like 1.5 times as hard as progressing on another class.

Argon.1563:

Axe the amount of silk required for Damask. (Least effort on developer’s part.)

This will not solve the core problem that you have (that damask is too expensive).
If they nerf the amount of silk required by 25%, then there might be 25% more bolts of damask crafted every day. The problem is that Linen/Wool/Cotton/Silk drop at a certain relation to each other every day. So maybe for every 4 cotton scraps, 8 wool and linen scraps, 60 silk scraps are generated on average.
As more bolts of damask are crafted per day, the price for the t2-4 cloths will go up because Anet didnt adjust their output. In the end, those price rises will equal out whatever you save on the silk end and damask wont loose any value.

Wanze.8410:

Argon.1563:

Axe the amount of silk required for Damask. (Least effort on developer’s part.)

This will not solve the core problem that you have (that damask is too expensive).
If they nerf the amount of silk required by 25%, then there might be 25% more bolts of damask crafted every day. The problem is that Linen/Wool/Cotton/Silk drop at a certain relation to each other every day. So maybe for every 4 cotton scraps, 8 wool and linen scraps, 60 silk scraps are generated on average.
As more bolts of damask are crafted per day, the price for the t2-4 cloths will go up because Anet didnt adjust their output. In the end, those price rises will equal out whatever you save on the silk end and damask wont loose any value.

Cotton, wool, and linen production can increase (with more people opening loot bags and champ bags on low level characters, or more people opting to spend their karma). Wool is so far still economical to upcraft. Silk production cannot be increased in either of these ways.

I suspect you are mostly right, though, in that at least part of the reason silk cannot be easily changed is because wool, linen, and cotton prices would rise as a result and they are already considerably high right now.

I don’t think it would be enough to offset the savings from silk completely though. I think there’s also some substance to damask supply going up and increasing the general demand for ascended armor. This would be reflected in rising prices of elonian leather and deldrimor steel, and I don’t have a problem with that at all.

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

Shiyo.3578:

There’s no reason for silk to take 100 per ascended mat when it’s over 4x the price of other ascended mats.

There is no reason for silk not to take 100 per ascended mat because it’s 2x the price of other ascended mats either.

yes there is
game balance with respect to effort required to progress with your charachter.
the current ascended system basically says progressing on cloth class is like 1.5 times as hard as progressing on another class.

I think this argument goes back to the same thing we see time and time again … ascended armor isn’t a requirement to progress with your character for anything but a limited aspect of the game. In that case, the cost is not prohibitive. Game balance is not affected by the minimal difference in setups with or without Ascended armor.

Furthermore, the rate for silk dropping is biased to light armor users, though I don’t know if that balances the higher cost for light users making their armor compared to heavy/med users. Until we do, this is just opinions since we don’t have that data. I also don’t think the distribution is as equal for various categories for mats.

Silk price is double edge sword really. Relative to heavy/med, light users pay more for ascended armor. They also benefit from loot bias and the fact that EVERYONE needs silk. I love farming on my necro JUST for that reason. I think the ultimate purpose of the unbalance is to get people out into the game and getting stuff instead of focusing on gold farming because in the end, everyone needs silk.

Obtena.7952:

I think this argument goes back to the same thing we see time and time again … ascended armor isn’t a requirement to progress with your character for anything but a limited aspect of the game. In that case, the cost is not prohibitive.

Progression is progression, regardless of whether or not it is “required”, and especially if it offers any sort of stat bonuses (full ascended is about 8-12% stronger than full exotic and 2-3% tougher). The fact remains that the progression is extremely imbalanced.

You are free to set your expectations low, but do not expect others to do the same.

Supposedly, the rate for silk dropping is biased to light armor users

I am sure someone here will dig up a post that this bias no longer applies at level 80.

Dave.2536:

Obtena.7952:

I think this argument goes back to the same thing we see time and time again … ascended armor isn’t a requirement to progress with your character for anything but a limited aspect of the game. In that case, the cost is not prohibitive.

Progression is progression, regardless of whether or not it is “required”, and especially if it offers any sort of stat bonuses (full ascended is about 8-12% stronger than full exotic and 2-3% tougher). The fact remains that the progression is extremely imbalanced.

You are free to set your expectations low, but do not expect others to do the same.

Supposedly, the rate for silk dropping is biased to light armor users

I am sure someone here will dig up a post that this bias no longer applies at level 80.

Except the discussion is about armor which offers very minor increases. Whether or not full ascended increases damage by ~13% isn’t relevant to a discussion about silk prices.

John Smith.4610:

Sounds to me like two independent issues being discussed.
1. Aggregate price for silk and market velocity
2. Farming for individual mats is hard

I would argue that these issues aren’t actually related and shouldn’t be discussed as if they were.

Could you please change Damask to only take 50 silk instead of 100? It would help a lot.

Also reduce linen’s material requirement by 50% too, it’s nearly 5s per linen and that’s a low level mat!

Why are you keeping Damask’s silk mat cost so high still when damask is so much more expensive than every other ascended mat? Linen is part to blame for this too, being 5s each is crazy, but silk is completely out of control compared to every other t5 mat. Shouldn’t you be reducing the mats required to help rebalance silk now that it isn’t worthless?

Ayrilana.1396:

Dave.2536:

Obtena.7952:

I think this argument goes back to the same thing we see time and time again … ascended armor isn’t a requirement to progress with your character for anything but a limited aspect of the game. In that case, the cost is not prohibitive.

Progression is progression, regardless of whether or not it is “required”, and especially if it offers any sort of stat bonuses (full ascended is about 8-12% stronger than full exotic and 2-3% tougher). The fact remains that the progression is extremely imbalanced.

You are free to set your expectations low, but do not expect others to do the same.

Supposedly, the rate for silk dropping is biased to light armor users

I am sure someone here will dig up a post that this bias no longer applies at level 80.

Except the discussion is about armor which offers very minor increases. Whether or not full ascended increases damage by ~13% isn’t relevant to a discussion about silk prices.

I was going off the context provided by Obtena which seemed to look at the whole tier. I also mentioned the 2-3% defensive boost which comes fully from the armor and can be highly relevant in things like WvW or any sort of tanky build (whose merits and usefulness are not to be discussed when talking about progression in a play-how-you-want game). Some people also find even 1 stat point to be significant progression, and they can and should have that right.

Are you ready to stop nitpicking and contribute to the discussion now?

Ayrilana.1396:

Dave.2536:

Obtena.7952:

I think this argument goes back to the same thing we see time and time again … ascended armor isn’t a requirement to progress with your character for anything but a limited aspect of the game. In that case, the cost is not prohibitive.

Progression is progression, regardless of whether or not it is “required”, and especially if it offers any sort of stat bonuses (full ascended is about 8-12% stronger than full exotic and 2-3% tougher). The fact remains that the progression is extremely imbalanced.

You are free to set your expectations low, but do not expect others to do the same.

Supposedly, the rate for silk dropping is biased to light armor users

I am sure someone here will dig up a post that this bias no longer applies at level 80.

Except the discussion is about armor which offers very minor increases. Whether or not full ascended increases damage by ~13% isn’t relevant to a discussion about silk prices.

Exactly. Not to get drawn into it but the only reason I can imagine that the Ascended armor is assigned those low increases is to ensure that it’s NOT a game balancing issue to have ascended armor against those that don’t. It’s simply a small bonus for those willing to expend the resources to get it.

Anyone that would argue that even this small increase is still a significant progression issue doesn’t understand what it means in terms of the practical gameplay where that competitive edge would be applicable. The stat increase from the full ascended armor is not even significant NOISE compared to weapon damage variation.

The only honest discussion centers around how not having this armor limits your ability to access higher level fractals; even as small an aspect of the game this is, gear gating is a lazy and silly mechanic that should be written of of MMO design techniques. The armors’ benefits in WvW is not a compelling reason; WvW is a competitive aspect of the game, it’s not designed to be equal, but it is fair.

Dave.2536:

Ayrilana.1396:

Dave.2536:

Obtena.7952:

I think this argument goes back to the same thing we see time and time again … ascended armor isn’t a requirement to progress with your character for anything but a limited aspect of the game. In that case, the cost is not prohibitive.

Progression is progression, regardless of whether or not it is “required”, and especially if it offers any sort of stat bonuses (full ascended is about 8-12% stronger than full exotic and 2-3% tougher). The fact remains that the progression is extremely imbalanced.

You are free to set your expectations low, but do not expect others to do the same.

Supposedly, the rate for silk dropping is biased to light armor users

I am sure someone here will dig up a post that this bias no longer applies at level 80.

Except the discussion is about armor which offers very minor increases. Whether or not full ascended increases damage by ~13% isn’t relevant to a discussion about silk prices.

I was going off the context provided by Obtena which seemed to look at the whole tier. I also mentioned the 2-3% defensive boost which comes fully from the armor and can be highly relevant in things like WvW or any sort of tanky build (whose merits and usefulness are not to be discussed when talking about progression in a play-how-you-want game). Some people also find even 1 stat point to be significant progression, and they can and should have that right.

Are you ready to stop nitpicking and contribute to the discussion now?

I’ll re-post your post and bold where he was talking about armor. Notice that he was not talking about anything else.

Dave.2536:

Obtena.7952:

I think this argument goes back to the same thing we see time and time again … ascended armor isn’t a requirement to progress with your character for anything but a limited aspect of the game. In that case, the cost is not prohibitive.

Progression is progression, regardless of whether or not it is “required”, and especially if it offers any sort of stat bonuses (full ascended is about 8-12% stronger than full exotic and 2-3% tougher). The fact remains that the progression is extremely imbalanced.

You are free to set your expectations low, but do not expect others to do the same.

See what I mean? You inserted the argument about full ascended being 8-12% strong than full exotics when the discussion, and his post, was strictly about armor.

I stand corrected on the side note (I’ve seen the argument way too many times, often loaded with misinformation, and assumed it was the same one again), and point out again that it was not a main point.

I do, however, consider a new level of ridiculous when half of a tier would be considered progression while the other half not.

I also fall back to the point about WvW and wanting to play a tank, where the (significant) defense starts to becomes valuable.

Finally, as a player who does Fractal 50, and on behalf of all the players who do, I will call the argument that “it only affects a few things so we don’t need to balance it” a trash point to begin with. It’s essentially a “it doesn’t affect me so I don’t care” statement.

All this, and we haven’t even touched on the “account bound” feature of all ascended gear, including armor.

Players: we’re getting to endgame too quick! Give us some more progression!

ANet: Okay here’s some ascended gear with the equivalent of going about half of a tier of gear!

Players: Lolwat, cloth is imbalanced compared to the others!

ANet (1): Well it’s not progression anyways so we don’t care.
ANet (2): Well only a few players doing certain content benefit significantly from it and we don’t care about them.

Dave.2536:

I do, however, consider a new level of ridiculous when half of a tier would be considered progression while the other half not.

OK, but that’s not really relevant to the thread about silk and armor. Fair point but different topic. I can see why it’s done as well and I think it’s a reasonable compromise between progression and balance.

Dave.2536:

I also fall back to the point about WvW and wanting to play a tank, where the (significant) defense starts to becomes valuable.

That point is moot in a thread about light armor user’s cost to get ascended armor. Even if Silk was the cheapest, the heavy/med’s would still have this defensive advantage. I don’t see the relevance to the cost of light ascended armor.

Dave.2536:

I will call the argument that “it only affects a few things so we don’t need to balance it” a trash point to begin with. It’s essentially a “it doesn’t affect me so I don’t care” statement.

The point I was making was that it balances itself by simply playing the game. If your target is fractal levels where you know you NEED ascended armor, then I would question anyone that doesn’t have the funds to access the necessary materials to make it by that time in the game. Frankly, if a player doesn’t, they aren’t balancing their gameplay. That leads to the REAL problem with ascended gear … you have to do things that AREN’T fractals to progress in fractals. This has nothing to do with the cost of silk.

The point I was making was that it balances itself by simply playing the game. If your target is fractal levels where you know you NEED ascended armor, then I would question anyone that doesn’t have the funds to access the necessary materials to make it by that time in the game. Frankly, if a player doesn’t, they aren’t balancing their gameplay.

Sorry, but this amounts to “the rich can take care of themselves and the rest of us shouldn’t care about them”. Light armor is imbalanced and silk makes up a huge portion of the difference. Of course we’re going to look at the cost of silk.

That leads to the REAL problem with ascended gear … you have to do things that AREN’T fractals to progress in fractals. This has nothing to do with the cost of silk.

No. And this is where you’re dead wrong about the purpose of ascended gear, including armor. Even ANet disagrees that it’s solely for Fractals.

By the way, the extra defense from ascended armor actually shows the biggest relative returns on light armor vs medium and heavy, so the tank/WvW examples were very valid and on point.

I hope ANet does nothing.

I enjoy profiting off of silk prices.

runeblade.7514:

I hope ANet does nothing.

I enjoy profiting off of silk prices.

How do you profit off it?

Hm. What I find strange, is that John Smith posted on here, but only to comment on the validity of the thread, rather than the topic itself.

Is this an issue ArenaNet doesn’t care about, or is it just something they’re aware of, but don’t want to discuss right now?

Dave.2536:

tekfan.3179:

I got a suggestion on how to equalize and spread the costs for the materials you need for ascended crafting:
Insignias could be made with one of each(damask, elonian leather and deldrimor steel), instead of three bolts of damask.

That would close the disparity greatly, but it may end up shifting the pressure to heavy armor.

Deldrimor steel is used extremely heavily in crafting ascended weapons, while damask is not used at all and elonian leather used very rarely (in bows only).

The new material-requirements would be…
-For heavy armor: 13 bolts of damask, 22 deldrimor steel ingots and 6 elonian leather squares
-For medium armor: 12 bolts of damask, 6 deldrimor steel ingots and 24 elonian leather squares
-For light armor: 24 bolts of damask, 6 deldrimor steel ingots and 12 elonian leather squares

I think the impact on heavy armor and weapon-crafting wouldn’t be that large. Contrary to cloth, you can mine every ore in the open world with a 100% success rate.
You don’t need to hope for a salvage-item or a bag with some luck in rng, just get a pickaxe and onward you go.
I agree that deldrimor steel is used in weapon-crafting.
However, a full set of ascended armor consists of six pieces, I listed the mat-requirements in my previous post. Even if you chose to craft every weapon-combination your profession can carry, I think only the warrior would need to have a stockpile of deldrimor steel that equals the current amount a light armor profession needs of damask. Not to mention that light and medium professions would only require 6 deldrimor steel per armor set each, not 18.

All the cloth went down because of winter festival for over month, it is going back to where it was because things are back to normal and glut is gone. Still, the recipe for damask and the change of refine cost was uncalled for, same outcry over a year later.

dietzero.3514:

runeblade.7514:

I hope ANet does nothing.

I enjoy profiting off of silk prices.

How do you profit off it?

I sell silk scraps into the market place when it drops. Even playing casually, I can get a lot of money by selling a few scraps.

They aren’t rare drops.

runeblade.7514:

dietzero.3514:

runeblade.7514:

I hope ANet does nothing.

I enjoy profiting off of silk prices.

How do you profit off it?

I sell silk scraps into the market place when it drops. Even playing casually, I can get a lot of money by selling a few scraps.

They aren’t rare drops.

Not really what I would call profitting, though. But I guess you did not mean in the monetary sense of the word.

Argon.1563:

Hm. What I find strange, is that John Smith posted on here, but only to comment on the validity of the thread, rather than the topic itself.

Is this an issue ArenaNet doesn’t care about, or is it just something they’re aware of, but don’t want to discuss right now?

if he says “ok maybe well do something about silk” BOOM silk market crashes, he buys 2940224 silk scraps, then says "jk " and triples his money

gg

thats why he dont say kitten about a kitten thing, because that would be grounds for getting fired. i think he likes his job.

tekfan.3179:

I got a suggestion on how to equalize and spread the costs for the materials you need for ascended crafting:
Insignias could be made with one of each(damask, elonian leather and deldrimor steel), instead of three bolts of damask.

This would reqcuire tailors and leatherworkers to buy their steel on the TP (or make it on a secondary), since they can’t make steel, and the same for armoursmiths and leather. Overall it seems like a decent idea, but it would cause complaints from people that only level one character.

Similarly, it might be possible to go for 2 of the craft’s main material, and 1 of the craft’s off material, but this would require 3 different recipes to exist for the same item, with the offset that people with multiple crafts will just create whichever costs less, allowing some self-policing of the economy and thus making it more inpredictable.

Both are things I considered, but decided not to share as viable options earlier due to their obvious downsides.

Argon.1563:

Hm. What I find strange, is that John Smith posted on here, but only to comment on the validity of the thread, rather than the topic itself.

Is this an issue ArenaNet doesn’t care about, or is it just something they’re aware of, but don’t want to discuss right now?

They have an economist that gets paid to look into this sort of thing, the fact nothing has been changed might just mean it’s not been noticed, but it might also mean that they just don’t care. As for the comments, CM’s probably wanna have fun too ^.~

John Smith IS the economist, Chista.

dietzero.3514:

John Smith IS the economist, Chista.

kitten it I need to get my names straight. In that case it is weird he’s only making that kind of comments…

If you heard a smack, that was me, facepalming.

phys.7689:

BIGHARSHNESS.3510:

I salvage everything and get the 100 I need a day to make a spool. Impatience is expensive. I can easily get 50+ ectos in a day, but look at the price on the tp. People take the time to farm the items can set the price however they want. You either pay for convenience or you go farm the product you need. That’s just how it works.

no offense, but
you play a lot, and probably grind a lot, the game probably shouldnt be designed based on your playtime.

most players/playstles cannot get 50 rares a day without a heavy time investment

Again, that’s how it works. Convenience is expensive. If they changed anything to benefit people with less time to play, those with more time to play will benefit as well and will still have more than those that don’t. I do play a lot, but not as much as most. And no, I don’t grind a lot. I play to have fun with friends. After a year of playing I finally have my first few ascended weapons. I have no ascended armor and I won’t for a while. I’ve spent months saving up t6 mats for my gift of fortune because I cannot afford to spend the gold on them. That’s fine with me. Just because I don’t have time to farm areas for hours to get them, I don’t feel like the price should be lowered for my convenience. You only get what you invest into the game.

I still think Anet made a misstake and underestimated what would happen to the demand for silk. When Ascended armor came they saw that there were an enormous supply of silk and my guess is that they wanted silk to be something valued higher than the 13 coppers they used to cost.

So Anet changed the Bolt Recipe to take 3 scraps instead of 2, and instead of going with 50 refined items as in the other recipes they decided to go for 100.

Now, I Believe they are kinda stuck in this. There is no easy way to change it without shocking the market even more. I have no numbers on how much cloth was added with the Wintersday events but the effect wasn’t lasting much, guess we players made too many extra armor sets :-)

John Smith.4610:

Sounds to me like two independent issues being discussed.
1. Aggregate price for silk and market velocity
2. Farming for individual mats is hard

I would argue that these issues aren’t actually related and shouldn’t be discussed as if they were.

If I recall Soft wood, Iron ore, etc, all got their material cost boosted because they were so abundant with no a tremendous amount of use to bring supply down.

But that was before ascended gear. Now these materials are very important, are abundantly used and that big stockpile has gone down.

Are the changes made back then still needed?

BIGHARSHNESS.3510:

Again, that’s how it works. Convenience is expensive. If they changed anything to benefit people with less time to play, those with more time to play will benefit as well and will still have more than those that don’t. I do play a lot, but not as much as most. And no, I don’t grind a lot. I play to have fun with friends. After a year of playing I finally have my first few ascended weapons. I have no ascended armor and I won’t for a while. I’ve spent months saving up t6 mats for my gift of fortune because I cannot afford to spend the gold on them. That’s fine with me. Just because I don’t have time to farm areas for hours to get them, I don’t feel like the price should be lowered for my convenience. You only get what you invest into the game.

Not to be cruel, but I play 8-13 hours a day at the moment, I play a mesmer (cloth based) but I make roughly 150 scraps a day. sometimes more, sometimes less, through regular play. In that same time, just off my salvages, I do get roughly a stack of leather bits and 200+ mithril. Never bothered to count wood. If I want to get 300 silk, I need to spend 8 hours farming -specific- mobs, alternating two places when I get bored. I gave this up because I play to experience the illustrious feeling of “fun” which farming flame legion and zombies for 8 hours is -not-.

This is not a situation that can be viewed through one person’s playstyle or their luck, but rather demands a vision through the over all picture. The Truth is that silk is 7S35 per bolt as of writing this, whereas Mithril is 1S, Elder Planks 1S25 and cured thick leather squares an appallingly low 30C. All on Buyout, not order.

This simply means that supply/demand ratios for these materials are not equally distributed, or you’d see more of a 2-3 silver difference between these materials, not 6. High end difference for the things that can be farmed of course, since they’ll never be as expensive.

insanemaniac.2456:

silk isnt a problem
leather is

This. Silk is a thriving market with lots of different uses and demands on the supply, Leather on the other hand….

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

ConfusedDave.4271:

You can’t farm for leather any more easily than you can farm for cloth, but leather prices are still low. So it doesn’t look like the farmability of silk is the driving factor behind the price. (At the end of the day, most people who play the game do so to have fun, not to farm like a crazy fool all day.)

I remember this post by John : https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/I-have-a-question-about-the-economy/first#post4216865

But I’m still curious as to why they made silk so valuable while leather is worth less then poop. Second interrogation, why did they make silk more valuable then it’s higher tier material, gossamer (I had to search for the name because I never use it and generally say yuk when I recycle cloth into this instead of silk xD).

But I believe they had a reason to do so and I have faith in John and his team to adjust the market if needed with the expansion.

eithinan.9841:

insanemaniac.2456:

silk isnt a problem
leather is

This. Silk is a thriving market with lots of different uses and demands on the supply, Leather on the other hand….

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

ConfusedDave.4271:

You can’t farm for leather any more easily than you can farm for cloth, but leather prices are still low. So it doesn’t look like the farmability of silk is the driving factor behind the price. (At the end of the day, most people who play the game do so to have fun, not to farm like a crazy fool all day.)

nope, silk is a high end market which places the large majority of its value on ONE use. The proof of this that the price changed drastically when ascended came into being. Before that it was essentially vendor price.

The driving force of silks value is that it requires a ridiculous amount of it to progress your charachter past a certain point. And that it is unbalancedly used in crafting recipes.

If its value was actually caused by having a diverse amount of recipes that had need of it, in manageable amounts, i would have no problem with its price.

and i guess this is what john smith is saying.
I think silks price of 2 silver might be an ok price point

i dont think damasks value of 13.5 gold is a good price point
i think the “cost” of damask by any means, bought or farmed is too high.

furthermore, i dont think the unbalance in required materials is good design for ascended crafting.

The point of the thread is silks cost as it relates to the cost damask, and ascended crafting. And the imbalances between different ascended materials

phys.7689:

eithinan.9841:

insanemaniac.2456:

silk isnt a problem
leather is

This. Silk is a thriving market with lots of different uses and demands on the supply, Leather on the other hand….

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

ConfusedDave.4271:

You can’t farm for leather any more easily than you can farm for cloth, but leather prices are still low. So it doesn’t look like the farmability of silk is the driving factor behind the price. (At the end of the day, most people who play the game do so to have fun, not to farm like a crazy fool all day.)

nope, silk is a high end market which places the large majority of its value on ONE use. The proof of this that the price changed drastically when ascended came into being. Before that it was essentially vendor price.

The driving force of silks value is that it requires a ridiculous amount of it to progress your charachter past a certain point. And that it is unbalancedly used in crafting recipes.

If its value was actually caused by having a diverse amount of recipes that had need of it, in manageable amounts, i would have no problem with its price.

and i guess this is what john smith is saying.
I think silks price of 2 silver might be an ok price point

i dont think damasks value of 13.5 gold is a good price point
i think the “cost” of damask by any means, bought or farmed is too high.

furthermore, i dont think the unbalance in required materials is good design for ascended crafting.

The point of the thread is silks cost as it relates to the cost damask, and ascended crafting. And the imbalances between different ascended materials

You are ignoring the fact that damask has more uses than elonian leather. All the backpacks that take 15 damask. If the dwayna or Balt back pack could be made with elonian leather then you would see a balancing just like you did when the spinal backpieces came out. The real issue is how under valued leather is in gw2.

Gossamer being so low in comparison to silk is based on the same reason as the leather being so low. Less end game uses for it. End of story. Supply and demand.

On the whining about it being 100 bolts not 50. Well, that came about because of the glut of silk on the market. The market then corrected itself and has found a balance for the price when more demand was created. This demand is what makes the silk market healthy and the Gossamer/leather markets unhealthy. Now anet has the choice of letting a system stay in place(that is working fine) or invalidating the effort made by people with sets of ascended armor already.

The reality is with account bound ascended being implemented, end game gearing is even easier.

Argon.1563:

Hm. What I find strange, is that John Smith posted on here, but only to comment on the validity of the thread, rather than the topic itself.

Is this an issue ArenaNet doesn’t care about, or is it just something they’re aware of, but don’t want to discuss right now?

It is something they are well aware of, and in fact John Smith said several times in various threads about the matter, that Silk was intentional and is working as intended. He also said in regards to player perception of a broken economy, that he doesn’t care. So from those type of statements that he already has made, one can reasonablly assume that in rergards to silk pricing is: that it is fine, its working like it should, and he doesn’t care about the misconception of silk being overpriced.

eithinan.9841:

phys.7689:

eithinan.9841:

insanemaniac.2456:

silk isnt a problem
leather is

This. Silk is a thriving market with lots of different uses and demands on the supply, Leather on the other hand….

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

ConfusedDave.4271:

You can’t farm for leather any more easily than you can farm for cloth, but leather prices are still low. So it doesn’t look like the farmability of silk is the driving factor behind the price. (At the end of the day, most people who play the game do so to have fun, not to farm like a crazy fool all day.)

nope, silk is a high end market which places the large majority of its value on ONE use. The proof of this that the price changed drastically when ascended came into being. Before that it was essentially vendor price.

The driving force of silks value is that it requires a ridiculous amount of it to progress your charachter past a certain point. And that it is unbalancedly used in crafting recipes.

If its value was actually caused by having a diverse amount of recipes that had need of it, in manageable amounts, i would have no problem with its price.

and i guess this is what john smith is saying.
I think silks price of 2 silver might be an ok price point

i dont think damasks value of 13.5 gold is a good price point
i think the “cost” of damask by any means, bought or farmed is too high.

furthermore, i dont think the unbalance in required materials is good design for ascended crafting.

The point of the thread is silks cost as it relates to the cost damask, and ascended crafting. And the imbalances between different ascended materials

You are ignoring the fact that damask has more uses than elonian leather. All the backpacks that take 15 damask. If the dwayna or Balt back pack could be made with elonian leather then you would see a balancing just like you did when the spinal backpieces came out. The real issue is how under valued leather is in gw2.

Gossamer being so low in comparison to silk is based on the same reason as the leather being so low. Less end game uses for it. End of story. Supply and demand.

On the whining about it being 100 bolts not 50. Well, that came about because of the glut of silk on the market. The market then corrected itself and has found a balance for the price when more demand was created. This demand is what makes the silk market healthy and the Gossamer/leather markets unhealthy. Now anet has the choice of letting a system stay in place(that is working fine) or invalidating the effort made by people with sets of ascended armor already.

The reality is with account bound ascended being implemented, end game gearing is even easier.

silk already reached the 2 silver price mark before those recipes were released, those recipes are not driving their value. Big difference is, they are optional and not part of progression. In the same way that ectoplasm price is not driven by the anomoly (focus)

the problem with your perspective, is it is looking only at the value of one material, and not at the world that they had to create to give it that value.

hypothetical
America has an excess of corn, so to give corn value, they make everyone have to buy 100 bushels of corn a day to get a liscense to travel above 35 miles per hour.

it might be nice that corn now is worth more than dirt, but the reality is that if you are used to driving above 35 mph, or desire to, then your standard of living has just taken a huge hit.

How many people do you think would knowingly vote to have this instituted?

The cure is worse than the disease. Before silk was worthless, i transformed it into other things of value, or i vendored it
Now it has value, but if i want to progress my charachters past a certain point i have to either spend a bunch of money i wouldnt have spent before, or i have to spend a lot more time grinding easy monster kills.

By all means increase demand, but do not increase demand by making people require ridiculous amounts of materials to progress their charachter. Do not make singular items require other items in the 1000s.
If you need to increase demand that much, so that players requires 1000s of something, you would be better off to look towards the supply side of the equation.

simply put, you are not increasing player satisfaction by paying him more, if you also increase the daily price of satisfaction, you are just shifting around numbers without making a qualitative change

pdavis.8031:

Argon.1563:

Hm. What I find strange, is that John Smith posted on here, but only to comment on the validity of the thread, rather than the topic itself.

Is this an issue ArenaNet doesn’t care about, or is it just something they’re aware of, but don’t want to discuss right now?

It is something they are well aware of, and in fact John Smith said several times in various threads about the matter, that Silk was intentional and is working as intended. He also said in regards to player perception of a broken economy, that he doesn’t care. So from those type of statements that he already has made, one can reasonablly assume that in rergards to silk pricing is: that it is fine, its working like it should, and he doesn’t care about the misconception of silk being overpriced.

he said he doesnt care if players are unsatisfied with economy? really?

phys.7689:

pdavis.8031:

Argon.1563:

Hm. What I find strange, is that John Smith posted on here, but only to comment on the validity of the thread, rather than the topic itself.

Is this an issue ArenaNet doesn’t care about, or is it just something they’re aware of, but don’t want to discuss right now?

It is something they are well aware of, and in fact John Smith said several times in various threads about the matter, that Silk was intentional and is working as intended. He also said in regards to player perception of a broken economy, that he doesn’t care. So from those type of statements that he already has made, one can reasonablly assume that in rergards to silk pricing is: that it is fine, its working like it should, and he doesn’t care about the misconception of silk being overpriced.

he said he doesnt care if players are unsatisfied with economy? really?

John Smith.4610:

LordByron.8369:

Question:
Do you care/will do something about the fact game economy is really perceived as broken?
Or if you instead think its well perceived, why don’t you look at every single thread that had the luck to remain for few hours in general section?

There were many threads about how important economy perception is in a videogame.

If by “really perceived” you mean that you mistakenly perceive a fantastic and functioning system as broken, then no… I don’t care.

phys.7689:

silk already reached the 2 silver price mark before those recipes were released,
they hit that because they released the 2-3 silk scrap change and ascended armors were already out. it is the continued additions to the demand for damask. Again just like the bum with elonian leathers for spinal blade backpieces.

the problem with your perspective, is it is looking only at the value of one material, and not at the world that they had to create to give it that value.
dumb statement is dumb when I am discussing both other t7 mats and components that make them.

hypothetical……[SNIP]
I don’t do hypothetical
[SNIP]
whining about how refinement works

Please don’t lower the value of silk.

eithinan.9841:

phys.7689:

silk already reached the 2 silver price mark before those recipes were released,
they hit that because they released the 2-3 silk scrap change and ascended armors were already out. it is the continued additions to the demand for damask. Again just like the bum with elonian leathers for spinal blade backpieces.

the problem with your perspective, is it is looking only at the value of one material, and not at the world that they had to create to give it that value.
dumb statement is dumb when I am discussing both other t7 mats and components that make them.

hypothetical……[SNIP]
I don’t do hypothetical
[SNIP]
whining about how refinement works

not doing hypotheticals? you fail at science/math/logic
then.

regardless looking at the actual implementations.

simple concepts for you

the introduction of ascended caused silk to go from a value of .09 silver to 2-3 silver. The introduction of backpacks caused silk to go from a value of 2-3 silver to a value of 2-3 silver

logic dictates that it is not signifigantly responsible for the current value of silk.

i see you are way too amused by snark to actually see anything from multiple perspectives. which limits your ability to understand things.

pdavis.8031:

phys.7689:

pdavis.8031:

Argon.1563:

Hm. What I find strange, is that John Smith posted on here, but only to comment on the validity of the thread, rather than the topic itself.

Is this an issue ArenaNet doesn’t care about, or is it just something they’re aware of, but don’t want to discuss right now?

It is something they are well aware of, and in fact John Smith said several times in various threads about the matter, that Silk was intentional and is working as intended. He also said in regards to player perception of a broken economy, that he doesn’t care. So from those type of statements that he already has made, one can reasonablly assume that in rergards to silk pricing is: that it is fine, its working like it should, and he doesn’t care about the misconception of silk being overpriced.

he said he doesnt care if players are unsatisfied with economy? really?

John Smith.4610:

LordByron.8369:

Question:
Do you care/will do something about the fact game economy is really perceived as broken?
Or if you instead think its well perceived, why don’t you look at every single thread that had the luck to remain for few hours in general section?

There were many threads about how important economy perception is in a videogame.

If by “really perceived” you mean that you mistakenly perceive a fantastic and functioning system as broken, then no… I don’t care.

i dont think this means he doesnt care if players are unsatisfied, merely that he doesnt care if that particular player thinks the economy is broken.

but i could be wrong, perhaps you are right, and he doesnt care.

my take on it, silk in relationship to damask and ascended is a problem. You will continue to see people complaining about it periodically for this reason. Even amongst those who dont complain, i think a great many view it as suboptimal.