Guild Wars 2

Aidan Savage.2078:

Tom Gore.4035:

Wanze.8410:

Tom Gore.4035:

Wanze.8410:

Why do you prefer permanent nodes for silk compared to indirect drops or added temporary supply (for example through wintersday?

We’ve replied to this question many times already, but you somehow seem to want to ignore our response.

So here it is once more. With a farmable source of cloth, the prices of the scraps (and derivatives) would naturally fluctuate to a point where some people start skipping the nodes because they don’t feel it’s worth their time to harvest them. Just like with metal and wood.

Silk getting more expensive -> More people harvesting -> Silk getting less expensive -> Less people harvesting. Repeat ad infinitum.

but it has been said many times before that just farming sw or other content that includes alot of mob kills will also increase your silk drops, so why not do that?

And what happens, once the demand for silk is saturated but people still get lots of silk from indirect drops, like leather? exactly, its price will keep falling until vendor value and we are at square one again.

That’s why we also suggested the random drops would be reduced at the same time, or did you ignore that, too?

In other words, the same system as it is now. Keep in mind that silk doesnt directly randomly drop either. That means your options are to have anet nerf the salvage results (idiotic in the extreme) of light armor, which is likely the singular effective source of silk, or nerf the odds of silk out of loot bags (just as stupid).

Frankly people need to stop offering non-existing solutions and figure out if there’s even a problem in the first place. So far, this is what I see; “I cant farm enough silk in a day, so I cant craft enough bolts of silk, so I need to buy silk scraps/bolts, so I can craft bolts of damask.”

That seems like it’s a personal problem right now. Why cant you farm enough silk? Why do you have an issue buying part of the silk? Wouldnt it be easier to run some dungeons so you dont need to farm (all/part of) the silk? If you’re that impatient for bolts of damask, why not buy it (unless you’re complaining you cant craft them fast enough to sell)?

It has been answered loads of times on this thread alone. Because if say I want 100 Silk Scraps there is no way to get 100. You just farm, then salvage and pray you get as many as you want (or more). With wood / ore there is no such problem, if you are missing a specific amount you can go get exactly how much you want.

maddoctor.2738:

Aidan Savage.2078:

Tom Gore.4035:

Wanze.8410:

Tom Gore.4035:

Wanze.8410:

Why do you prefer permanent nodes for silk compared to indirect drops or added temporary supply (for example through wintersday?

We’ve replied to this question many times already, but you somehow seem to want to ignore our response.

So here it is once more. With a farmable source of cloth, the prices of the scraps (and derivatives) would naturally fluctuate to a point where some people start skipping the nodes because they don’t feel it’s worth their time to harvest them. Just like with metal and wood.

Silk getting more expensive -> More people harvesting -> Silk getting less expensive -> Less people harvesting. Repeat ad infinitum.

but it has been said many times before that just farming sw or other content that includes alot of mob kills will also increase your silk drops, so why not do that?

And what happens, once the demand for silk is saturated but people still get lots of silk from indirect drops, like leather? exactly, its price will keep falling until vendor value and we are at square one again.

That’s why we also suggested the random drops would be reduced at the same time, or did you ignore that, too?

In other words, the same system as it is now. Keep in mind that silk doesnt directly randomly drop either. That means your options are to have anet nerf the salvage results (idiotic in the extreme) of light armor, which is likely the singular effective source of silk, or nerf the odds of silk out of loot bags (just as stupid).

Frankly people need to stop offering non-existing solutions and figure out if there’s even a problem in the first place. So far, this is what I see; “I cant farm enough silk in a day, so I cant craft enough bolts of silk, so I need to buy silk scraps/bolts, so I can craft bolts of damask.”

That seems like it’s a personal problem right now. Why cant you farm enough silk? Why do you have an issue buying part of the silk? Wouldnt it be easier to run some dungeons so you dont need to farm (all/part of) the silk? If you’re that impatient for bolts of damask, why not buy it (unless you’re complaining you cant craft them fast enough to sell)?

It has been answered loads of times on this thread alone. Because if say I want 100 Silk Scraps there is no way to get 100. You just farm, then salvage and pray you get as many as you want (or more). With wood / ore there is no such problem, if you are missing a specific amount you can go get exactly how much you want.

But the TP already provides that function. Just type in the amount of silk you need, and check its gold price. You now know how much gold you need to buy your daily silk.

Now you have the choice of how to earn that gold. You can chose a quick and efficient gold farm or just do something fun, which might earn you less gold per hour.
As soon as you earned enough gold to buy the silk you need, you are done farming silk.

If you want, just go around and mine any node in the game and pretend its silk. Sell whatever you mine until you have enough gold to buy your silk.

Wanze.8410:

maddoctor.2738:

Aidan Savage.2078:

Tom Gore.4035:

Wanze.8410:

Tom Gore.4035:

Wanze.8410:

Why do you prefer permanent nodes for silk compared to indirect drops or added temporary supply (for example through wintersday?

We’ve replied to this question many times already, but you somehow seem to want to ignore our response.

So here it is once more. With a farmable source of cloth, the prices of the scraps (and derivatives) would naturally fluctuate to a point where some people start skipping the nodes because they don’t feel it’s worth their time to harvest them. Just like with metal and wood.

Silk getting more expensive -> More people harvesting -> Silk getting less expensive -> Less people harvesting. Repeat ad infinitum.

but it has been said many times before that just farming sw or other content that includes alot of mob kills will also increase your silk drops, so why not do that?

And what happens, once the demand for silk is saturated but people still get lots of silk from indirect drops, like leather? exactly, its price will keep falling until vendor value and we are at square one again.

That’s why we also suggested the random drops would be reduced at the same time, or did you ignore that, too?

In other words, the same system as it is now. Keep in mind that silk doesnt directly randomly drop either. That means your options are to have anet nerf the salvage results (idiotic in the extreme) of light armor, which is likely the singular effective source of silk, or nerf the odds of silk out of loot bags (just as stupid).

Frankly people need to stop offering non-existing solutions and figure out if there’s even a problem in the first place. So far, this is what I see; “I cant farm enough silk in a day, so I cant craft enough bolts of silk, so I need to buy silk scraps/bolts, so I can craft bolts of damask.”

That seems like it’s a personal problem right now. Why cant you farm enough silk? Why do you have an issue buying part of the silk? Wouldnt it be easier to run some dungeons so you dont need to farm (all/part of) the silk? If you’re that impatient for bolts of damask, why not buy it (unless you’re complaining you cant craft them fast enough to sell)?

It has been answered loads of times on this thread alone. Because if say I want 100 Silk Scraps there is no way to get 100. You just farm, then salvage and pray you get as many as you want (or more). With wood / ore there is no such problem, if you are missing a specific amount you can go get exactly how much you want.

But the TP already provides that function. Just type in the amount of silk you need, and check its gold price. You now know how much gold you need to buy your daily silk.

Now you have the choice of how to earn that gold. You can chose a quick and efficient gold farm or just do something fun, which might earn you less gold per hour.
As soon as you earned enough gold to buy the silk you need, you are done farming silk.

If you want, just go around and mine any node in the game and pretend its silk. Sell whatever you mine until you have enough gold to buy your silk.

Wanze: But thats unfair! and the prices are too high!! That means I have to mine much more [insert mat here] in order to make it worth as much as silk!!! It should take as much silk for damask as mithril for deldrimor, and the same for elonian leather.

I honest don’t see whats wrong with the current system. Silk isn’t hard to come by. Period. The only reason its expensive is because thats what players are willing to pay. There are thousands of players who do buy it regularly and don’t seem to have a problem with it. If you don’t want to pay the listed price, put in a bid on what you want to pay, and hope that you’ll find someone willing to sell at that price.

pdavis.8031:

Wanze.8410:

maddoctor.2738:

Aidan Savage.2078:

Tom Gore.4035:

Wanze.8410:

Tom Gore.4035:

Wanze.8410:

Why do you prefer permanent nodes for silk compared to indirect drops or added temporary supply (for example through wintersday?

We’ve replied to this question many times already, but you somehow seem to want to ignore our response.

So here it is once more. With a farmable source of cloth, the prices of the scraps (and derivatives) would naturally fluctuate to a point where some people start skipping the nodes because they don’t feel it’s worth their time to harvest them. Just like with metal and wood.

Silk getting more expensive -> More people harvesting -> Silk getting less expensive -> Less people harvesting. Repeat ad infinitum.

but it has been said many times before that just farming sw or other content that includes alot of mob kills will also increase your silk drops, so why not do that?

And what happens, once the demand for silk is saturated but people still get lots of silk from indirect drops, like leather? exactly, its price will keep falling until vendor value and we are at square one again.

That’s why we also suggested the random drops would be reduced at the same time, or did you ignore that, too?

In other words, the same system as it is now. Keep in mind that silk doesnt directly randomly drop either. That means your options are to have anet nerf the salvage results (idiotic in the extreme) of light armor, which is likely the singular effective source of silk, or nerf the odds of silk out of loot bags (just as stupid).

Frankly people need to stop offering non-existing solutions and figure out if there’s even a problem in the first place. So far, this is what I see; “I cant farm enough silk in a day, so I cant craft enough bolts of silk, so I need to buy silk scraps/bolts, so I can craft bolts of damask.”

That seems like it’s a personal problem right now. Why cant you farm enough silk? Why do you have an issue buying part of the silk? Wouldnt it be easier to run some dungeons so you dont need to farm (all/part of) the silk? If you’re that impatient for bolts of damask, why not buy it (unless you’re complaining you cant craft them fast enough to sell)?

It has been answered loads of times on this thread alone. Because if say I want 100 Silk Scraps there is no way to get 100. You just farm, then salvage and pray you get as many as you want (or more). With wood / ore there is no such problem, if you are missing a specific amount you can go get exactly how much you want.

But the TP already provides that function. Just type in the amount of silk you need, and check its gold price. You now know how much gold you need to buy your daily silk.

Now you have the choice of how to earn that gold. You can chose a quick and efficient gold farm or just do something fun, which might earn you less gold per hour.
As soon as you earned enough gold to buy the silk you need, you are done farming silk.

If you want, just go around and mine any node in the game and pretend its silk. Sell whatever you mine until you have enough gold to buy your silk.

Wanze: But thats unfair! and the prices are too high!! That means I have to mine much more [insert mat here] in order to make it worth as much as silk!!! It should take as much silk for damask as mithril for deldrimor, and the same for elonian leather.

I honest don’t see whats wrong with the current system. Silk isn’t hard to come by. Period. The only reason its expensive is because thats what players are willing to pay. There are thousands of players who do buy it regularly and don’t seem to have a problem with it. If you don’t want to pay the listed price, put in a bid on what you want to pay, and hope that you’ll find someone willing to sell at that price.

its expensive because thats what some players are willing to pay, but since there is a pretty large difference in wealth between players, the price some are willing to pay does not represent that they actually want the item more than other players. The price does not represent how much players as a whole think an item is worth.

See when you have an inelastic supply, on an item that is necessary, you will always have people buying it. You will simply have more people that want it, but cannot buy it, as the demand increases.

its especially bad when you realize the purpose of ascended was to create a reachable goal/incentive to keep people playing. So by becoming something many people are not getting a satisfying experience from, you are decreasing how well it serves its purpose.

eithinan.9841:

phys.7689:

im starting to realize, that most of the people disagreeing with fixing silk/ascended, are basically just trying to protect their current racket.

No man, I’m against it because it will invalidate all the effort I have put into getting ascended gear for all my weight classes. I also don’t want the rest of the players who have put in that effort to feel burned either. Phys, you are not taking into account the silent/vocal backlash Anet would get for making silk changes from people who have already finished or are most of the way through the ascended grind.

edit:

Aberrant.6749:

Seems more like you’ve already made up your mind about what you want and won’t listen to anyone else and just toss aside what they have to say by trying to attack their character instead of the argument itself.

well said.

many people fear/dislike progress for these reasons. But are the old situations really better?
Cell phones destroyed beepers
Internet gutted magazines
Automobiles replaced horses
Planes reduced buses/trains

I do think people the designers should definately consider people who adopted early, but they shouldnt become crippled by it. Id rather they create a superior system than preserve a bad one just to keep the status quo.

Basically at this point people are like
yeah its a flawed system, but it doesnt cause the world to implode
yeah its a flawed system, but i bought into it already
yeah its a flawed system, but i profit from it.

to me, none of these are good reasons to keep a flawed system. In a real economy, flawed systems cannot stand, because they are inherently inferior to better solutions. So anet, in order to keep the game world improving/competitive has to simulate innovation, or else peoples desire to keep things the same, will lead to stagnation and long term dissatisfaction.

Now, the big caveat to this, is they have to deliver better solutions, not just change for the sake of change. I am all about better solutions, and an improved game world.

phys.7689:

eithinan.9841:

phys.7689:

im starting to realize, that most of the people disagreeing with fixing silk/ascended, are basically just trying to protect their current racket.

No man, I’m against it because it will invalidate all the effort I have put into getting ascended gear for all my weight classes. I also don’t want the rest of the players who have put in that effort to feel burned either. Phys, you are not taking into account the silent/vocal backlash Anet would get for making silk changes from people who have already finished or are most of the way through the ascended grind.

edit:

Aberrant.6749:

Seems more like you’ve already made up your mind about what you want and won’t listen to anyone else and just toss aside what they have to say by trying to attack their character instead of the argument itself.

well said.

many people fear/dislike progress for these reasons. But are the old situations really better?
Cell phones destroyed beepers
Internet gutted magazines
Automobiles replaced horses
Planes reduced buses/trains

I do think people the designers should definately consider people who adopted early, but they shouldnt become crippled by it. Id rather they create a superior system than preserve a bad one just to keep the status quo.

Basically at this point people are like
yeah its a flawed system, but it doesnt cause the world to implode
yeah its a flawed system, but i bought into it already
yeah its a flawed system, but i profit from it.

to me, none of these are good reasons to keep a flawed system. In a real economy, flawed systems cannot stand, because they are inherently inferior to better solutions. So anet, in order to keep the game world improving/competitive has to simulate innovation, or else peoples desire to keep things the same, will lead to stagnation and long term dissatisfaction.

Now, the big caveat to this, is they have to deliver better solutions, not just change for the sake of change. I am all about better solutions, and an improved game world.

I dont agree at all that its a flawed system because its working as intended.

Wanze.8410:

I dont agree at all that its a flawed system because its working as intended.

So why has ANet intended for light ascended armor to cost much more than heavy ascended armor? Isn’t that flawed? Seems to me that people would squawk pretty loudly if e.g. exotic karma armor cost more for charr than for norns.

Btw, I don’t particularly have a dog in this hunt since I have not crafted ascended armor for any of my dozen or so alts and have light, medium, and heavy armored toons. Nor do I invest in silk, damask, etc.

Nike.2631:

There are a couple things that could be done to make the situation more equitable, but ArenaNet knows that and has chosen not to. This is a live game not a drawing board exercise so any changes in the name of symmetry and/or justice have to not badly disrupt the experience of early adopters who’ve already paid the higher prices.

Very few suggestions address the fact the system has already been out in the wild for a year now.

Wanze.8410:

I dont agree at all that its a flawed system because its working as intended.

I’ve been convinced by some arguments that the “problem” of silk prices doesn’t have an easy solution. But if the system is working as intended and not at all “broken,” why then did Anet decide to add cloth supply temporarily during an event? It’s pure speculation on my part, but I think they wanted a trial run for adding new sources of cloth with the opportunity to inject supply along a timeline that could be monitored and analyzed for pros/cons. I see the temporary injection as a choice by Anet to try to analyze what would happen to the market should they add more sources. This signifies, to me, they see some sort of problem worth addressing.

By all accounts, I totally agree that it makes no “sense” (I realize we are playing a fantasy game where there are many things that don’t make sense, nor should they have to) to have t6 cheaper than t5, which is cheaper than t4. The introduction of leather problems to the conversation quickly complicates most solutions. There should definitely be more balance to the system, but how it can be accomplished…

Well, I used to think it was simple, but if it was, it would have been fixed already.

John Smith.4610:

Sounds to me like two independent issues being discussed.
1. Aggregate price for silk and market velocity
2. Farming for individual mats is hard

I would argue that these issues aren’t actually related and shouldn’t be discussed as if they were.

1. This one is just a result of sources of silk not compensating consumption in relation to other basic materials. So people see the other basic materials having prices more or less within reasoable ranges, then they look at cloth and go “Woah. Something’s definitely wrong here!”.

2. It is not simply ‘hard’. It is impossible unless the item has a guaranteed source like a node. Just look at the occasional post asking about ecto salvage rate after they did a full set of world bosses, salvaged all the rares and got barely any ecto. There must always be some minimum guaranteed sources for stuff. Like a vendor with a limited stock that allows people to buy a limited amount daily; gathering nodes; certain events that always provide at lest one of something on success like the Toxic Offshoot events; vendors that pop after events also with a limited stock; ‘consolation price’ tokens you can exchange for the stuff you want if the content never drops what you want, and so on.

Then some items simply lost their sources at all, like Azurite Orbs which very rarely drop from mithril nodes in a single fractal, if ever. At least those should be dropping as rare materials from orichalcum in Southsun Cove or Obsidian Sanctum or something. Or they’ll just keep going up.

Is a system truly “flawed” if one person’s opinion says it is?

Honestly, I think it’s more along the lines of “working as intended”, because educated Devs designed it as such, and constantly monitors it while making adjustments as needed.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Is a system truly “flawed” if one person’s opinion says it is?

Honestly, I think it’s more along the lines of “working as intended”, because educated Devs designed it as suck, and constantly monitors it while making adjustments as needed.

did you mean such X_X

Just a quick heads up to people in this thread:

“Working as intended” =/= “Working well for a game or its players”

Please stop confusing the two.

John Smith.4610:

phys.7689:

to me, none of these are good reasons to keep a flawed system. In a real economy, flawed systems cannot stand, because they are inherently inferior to better solutions.

I want to live in the world you live in.
——————————
Again this feels to me like two separate issues. One of price, one DIRECT availability, meaning you go obtain an item, you do not go obtain an intermediary item and exchange it for the item you’re looking for.

To the first issue, I’m not sure that I agree that there’s an issue. I haven’t seen strong argument that leads me to believe that a change wouldn’t leave everyone worse off. Silk is certainly not inelastic.

I’m not ready to discuss the second issue just yet.

so based on that second part the supply of silk is currently at the amount that you (devs) intended?

John Smith.4610:

phys.7689:

to me, none of these are good reasons to keep a flawed system. In a real economy, flawed systems cannot stand, because they are inherently inferior to better solutions.

I want to live in the world you live in.
——————————
Again this feels to me like two separate issues. One of price, one DIRECT availability, meaning you go obtain an item, you do not go obtain an intermediary item and exchange it for the item you’re looking for.

To the first issue, I’m not sure that I agree that there’s an issue. I haven’t seen strong argument that leads me to believe that a change wouldn’t leave everyone worse off. Silk is certainly not inelastic.

I’m not ready to discuss the second issue just yet.

A)ok, i will admit the reality is not that simple, but, thats supposedly what an ideal economy is supposed to promote.

B)as far as the price of silk, by changing the normal usage of silk, you change the price point people will feel comfortable with.

when i need 1 carton of milk a day 2 dollars may be a fine price, but when i need 300 cartons of milk a day 2 dollars may not be a good price.

C)that aside, in order for the ascended crafting design to make sense, it assumes that getting a damask is roughly equal in effort to getting a mithrillium, or an elonian leather.
but that is not the case. In this thread, they are homing in on silk as being a part of that discrepancy.

D)as far as silk being completely inelastic, it is not. Its amount changes as a function of how many people are killing(and how much they are killing) level 70-80 content.
however that is not something that adapts well to the demand of ascended. How much people are killing level 70-80 content is not primarily dictated by how much people want cloth ascended. So while the supply isnt completely inelastic, its elasticity doesnt serve the demand that well.

Not only that, but if the playerbase decides on the whole it needs more silk, they will at the same time create a large amount of uneccessary items. So when the playerbase decides it needs more silk, it also reduces the value of everything else on those drop tables.

trying to meet the demand for silk, reduces the value of leather for example.

It’s easy to get caught up in numbers games, but I think ultimately the real question that should be asked here is both far more complicated, and at the same time, far more simple.

Is this fun?

And a second question:
How does this contribute to, or take away from, the fun factor of playing the game?

Answer that, and you will find your solution.

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Is a system truly “flawed” if one person’s opinion says it is?

Honestly, I think it’s more along the lines of “working as intended”, because educated Devs designed it as suck, and constantly monitors it while making adjustments as needed.

did you mean such X_X

HAHAHAHA!!! Wow, worst typo EVER! I fixed it. Thanks for catching that one.

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

[SNIP]
to me, none of these are good reasons to keep a flawed system.

I dont agree at all that its a flawed system because its working as intended.

agree wanze.

MithranArkanere.8957:

1. This one is just a result of sources of silk not compensating consumption in relation to other basic materials. So people see the other basic materials having prices more or less within reasoable ranges, then they look at cloth and go “Woah. Something’s definitely wrong here!”.

I would argue there is something wrong with the other “basic materials” on the market. You can’t say there isn’t something wrong with leather…

…and the wheels on the bus go round and round….

To Paraphrase:

Gene Archer.8560:

Just a quick heads up to people in this thread:

“Low Priced” =/= “Thriving, Healthy Market”

Please stop confusing the two.

basically, in part to the price of silk, and the design of ascended crafting, cloth users have to work harder for the same results.

Is this a good design?

phys.7689:

basically, in part to the price of silk, and the design of ascended crafting, cloth users have to work harder for the same results.

Is this a good design?

I’d go with No.

Now that silk and soft wood have suitable material sinks, it’s probably time to adjust their crafting formulas back in line with the rest of the game. (Or, conversely, adjust the other formulas to match, but I’ll leave it to the expert on what that might do economically.)

I don’t have a huge stake in it either way, other than insisting on good, transparent, parallel design. The formula changes were blatant manipulations at the time, and that’s not something that ever felt good to the players.

Of course, I’d rather not see the goods in question hit the price floor again, either. I’m not in a rush for hasty solutions, and I could see it being stealth-patched. The secrecy would last a whole hour before grateful players flood the forums, but I wouldn’t see a need to announce it.

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

eithinan.9841:

phys.7689:

im starting to realize, that most of the people disagreeing with fixing silk/ascended, are basically just trying to protect their current racket.

No man, I’m against it because it will invalidate all the effort I have put into getting ascended gear for all my weight classes. I also don’t want the rest of the players who have put in that effort to feel burned either. Phys, you are not taking into account the silent/vocal backlash Anet would get for making silk changes from people who have already finished or are most of the way through the ascended grind.

edit:

Aberrant.6749:

Seems more like you’ve already made up your mind about what you want and won’t listen to anyone else and just toss aside what they have to say by trying to attack their character instead of the argument itself.

well said.

many people fear/dislike progress for these reasons. But are the old situations really better?
Cell phones destroyed beepers
Internet gutted magazines
Automobiles replaced horses
Planes reduced buses/trains

I do think people the designers should definately consider people who adopted early, but they shouldnt become crippled by it. Id rather they create a superior system than preserve a bad one just to keep the status quo.

Basically at this point people are like
yeah its a flawed system, but it doesnt cause the world to implode
yeah its a flawed system, but i bought into it already
yeah its a flawed system, but i profit from it.

to me, none of these are good reasons to keep a flawed system. In a real economy, flawed systems cannot stand, because they are inherently inferior to better solutions. So anet, in order to keep the game world improving/competitive has to simulate innovation, or else peoples desire to keep things the same, will lead to stagnation and long term dissatisfaction.

Now, the big caveat to this, is they have to deliver better solutions, not just change for the sake of change. I am all about better solutions, and an improved game world.

I dont agree at all that its a flawed system because its working as intended.

most systems work as intended.

the first car was built to have automated travel
it did its job, it worked as intended
its design was still flawed/inferior to later cars.

a beeper worked as intended, it let someone one know you wanted to talk to them. its design is still inferior to that of a cell phone.

factories were working as intended, their design was still flawed
http://io9.com/5955311/the-london-fog-that-killed-over-ten-thousand-people

phys.7689:

basically, in part to the price of silk, and the design of ascended crafting, cloth users have to work harder for the same results.

Is this a good design?

It is certainly not obvious that it is. And if it was designed to be this way, what is the reason behind it? If it was to “fix” a problem with worthless silk, then isn’t there currently a similar problem with worthless leather?

phys.7689:

basically, in part to the price of silk, and the design of ascended crafting, cloth users have to work harder for the same results.

Is this a good design?

If the point is Cloth armor taking cloth, and Metal armor taking ingots, then yes, it’s a good design. If the point is player preference dictating which armor type your character uses, then it’s a matter of dice you rolled.

If you buy an electric car, but have no outlets in your garage to charge the vehicle, is the system of electric vehicles flawed?

Players have more demand for cloth materials than metal ones. Sure there are less faucets for cloth, but that makes sense. In a medieval period, harvesting crops, chopping trees, and mining metals would be a lot easier than to tan a cow’s hide. You can’t farm cloth as easily in the real world, but I sure can knock down that tree in my back yard, and make logs.

phys.7689:

Aberrant.6749:

The price of scraps has been higher in the past. It’s at about the same price as it was July 9th 2014. Seems like a normal fluctuation to me.

As far as why it takes so many more scraps idk, I didn’t agree with it back when they changed it, but I remember reading that it wasn’t a mistake. I don’t see why it should change now that so many have invested the time and resources to make cloth armor.

The drop rates on cloth do increase with various events (wintersday gave them out from the dusty clothes for example). Too expensive for you right now? Just wait and see what the next event brings and save your gold. The stat difference between exotic and ascended armor is very small anyways.

im starting to realize, that most of the people disagreeing with fixing silk/ascended, are basically just trying to protect their current racket.

Is that so unreasonable? The people wanting it changed are protecting their own interests as well. If you’re an astute light armor users … you ALSO benefit from silk prices.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If the point is Cloth armor taking cloth, and Metal armor taking ingots, then yes, it’s a good design. If the point is player preference dictating which armor type your character uses, then it’s a matter of dice you rolled.

If you buy an electric car, but have no outlets in your garage to charge the vehicle, is the system of electric vehicles flawed?

Players have more demand for cloth materials than metal ones. Sure there are less faucets for cloth, but that makes sense. In a medieval period, harvesting crops, chopping trees, and mining metals would be a lot easier than to tan a cow’s hide. You can’t farm cloth as easily in the real world, but I sure can knock down that tree in my back yard, and make logs.

Cloth armor requiring cloth is not part of the design that is being questioned. Cloth armor requiring more cloth than metal armor requiring metal is the part of the design in question. Real world analogues are not particularly relevant for an MMO.

What if tomorrow, ANet flipped a switch and the current requirements for cloth and metal for ascended armor were switched? What would be the reason for such a change? The answer to that question is the kind of answer that folks are curious about regarding the current situation. That the difference has anything to do with whether metal or cloth is easier to farm in the real world seems extremely unlikely.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

basically, in part to the price of silk, and the design of ascended crafting, cloth users have to work harder for the same results.

Is this a good design?

If the point is Cloth armor taking cloth, and Metal armor taking ingots, then yes, it’s a good design. If the point is player preference dictating which armor type your character uses, then it’s a matter of dice you rolled.

If you buy an electric car, but have no outlets in your garage to charge the vehicle, is the system of electric vehicles flawed?

Players have more demand for cloth materials than metal ones. Sure there are less faucets for cloth, but that makes sense. In a medieval period, harvesting crops, chopping trees, and mining metals would be a lot easier than to tan a cow’s hide. You can’t farm cloth as easily in the real world, but I sure can knock down that tree in my back yard, and make logs.

1)electric car analogy
yes, actually it is. One of the main design parameters engineers had when designing electric cars was, how feasible will it be to charge this car? I used to study engineering and remember reading articles discussing the issues with that facet of the design in class.

2)In medieval times cloth was more abundant than metal.

3)needing cloth for cloth, leather for leather, etc does not explain why cloth requires more of the basic material to produce the item. There is no reason it could have been 50 silk instead of 100
in keeping in line with cloth for cloth, leather for leather, metal for metal, why do leather and metal require cloth then?

4) the cost of silk is not about silk users competing with silk users, silk users are competing with metal and leather users.

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Aberrant.6749:

The price of scraps has been higher in the past. It’s at about the same price as it was July 9th 2014. Seems like a normal fluctuation to me.

As far as why it takes so many more scraps idk, I didn’t agree with it back when they changed it, but I remember reading that it wasn’t a mistake. I don’t see why it should change now that so many have invested the time and resources to make cloth armor.

The drop rates on cloth do increase with various events (wintersday gave them out from the dusty clothes for example). Too expensive for you right now? Just wait and see what the next event brings and save your gold. The stat difference between exotic and ascended armor is very small anyways.

im starting to realize, that most of the people disagreeing with fixing silk/ascended, are basically just trying to protect their current racket.

Is that so unreasonable? The people wanting it changed are protecting their own interests as well. If you’re an astute light armor users … you ALSO benefit from silk prices.

its very reasonable(reason dictates that you look out for your own best interests), but its also a very bad mechanism for deciding whats good for the game.

essentially, its short sighted. silk being unbalanced in design is not improving the game.

William Bradley Knight.2609:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If the point is Cloth armor taking cloth, and Metal armor taking ingots, then yes, it’s a good design. If the point is player preference dictating which armor type your character uses, then it’s a matter of dice you rolled.

If you buy an electric car, but have no outlets in your garage to charge the vehicle, is the system of electric vehicles flawed?

Players have more demand for cloth materials than metal ones. Sure there are less faucets for cloth, but that makes sense. In a medieval period, harvesting crops, chopping trees, and mining metals would be a lot easier than to tan a cow’s hide. You can’t farm cloth as easily in the real world, but I sure can knock down that tree in my back yard, and make logs.

Cloth armor requiring cloth is not part of the design that is being questioned. Cloth armor requiring more cloth than metal armor requiring metal is the part of the design in question. Real world analogues are not particularly relevant for an MMO.

What if tomorrow, ANet flipped a switch and the current requirements for cloth and metal for ascended armor were switched? What would be the reason for such a change? The answer to that question is the kind of answer that folks are curious about regarding the current situation. That the difference has anything to do with whether metal or cloth is easier to farm in the real world seems extremely unlikely.

Ok, I’ll put it more simple. Anet designed the Silk sink because of two reasons:

1) Silk was abundant and useless initially. Changing bolt requirements from 2 to 3 helped to eliminate a lot of the excess.
2) Anet wanted to give crafters a way to make money. They knew the demand for Damask bolts would make them valuable, so keeping the requirements for cloth Ascended armor high would keep Damask pricey.

It’s an artificial scarcity created to serve a purpose. Dig through John’s posts from last year, and you’ll find the source of my info.

ps – I have close to 80 Lumps of Mithrillium just sitting around to prepare for such a time when I’ll need it. So if they flip the switch on something, I’m fully prepared for the shortages.

John Smith.4610:

phys.7689:

to me, none of these are good reasons to keep a flawed system. In a real economy, flawed systems cannot stand, because they are inherently inferior to better solutions.

I want to live in the world you live in.
——————————
Again this feels to me like two separate issues. One of price, one DIRECT availability, meaning you go obtain an item, you do not go obtain an intermediary item and exchange it for the item you’re looking for.

To the first issue, I’m not sure that I agree that there’s an issue. I haven’t seen strong argument that leads me to believe that a change wouldn’t leave everyone worse off. Silk is certainly not inelastic.

I’m not ready to discuss the second issue just yet.

I thought the temporary increase of supply was a good solution (like what happened during wintersday). Maybe you guys just need to increase the frequency of these to get silk to the price you want it to be?

phys.7689:

A)ok, i will admit the reality is not that simple, but, thats supposedly what an ideal economy is supposed to promote.

I’m fairly certain Daniel Kahneman won a Nobel Prize in economics for proving that ideal economies CAN’T exist… because right now they are made up of humans .

((note to self – go read up on his “Prospect Theory”))

Personally, I always thought Tailors should be able to produce ascended leather and that ascended cloth armor recipes should include small amounts of leather, slightly reducing the amount of fabric they require now. It would ease some of the time gating and reduce “cloth competition” they have to deal with currently.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

William Bradley Knight.2609:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If the point is Cloth armor taking cloth, and Metal armor taking ingots, then yes, it’s a good design. If the point is player preference dictating which armor type your character uses, then it’s a matter of dice you rolled.

If you buy an electric car, but have no outlets in your garage to charge the vehicle, is the system of electric vehicles flawed?

Players have more demand for cloth materials than metal ones. Sure there are less faucets for cloth, but that makes sense. In a medieval period, harvesting crops, chopping trees, and mining metals would be a lot easier than to tan a cow’s hide. You can’t farm cloth as easily in the real world, but I sure can knock down that tree in my back yard, and make logs.

Cloth armor requiring cloth is not part of the design that is being questioned. Cloth armor requiring more cloth than metal armor requiring metal is the part of the design in question. Real world analogues are not particularly relevant for an MMO.

What if tomorrow, ANet flipped a switch and the current requirements for cloth and metal for ascended armor were switched? What would be the reason for such a change? The answer to that question is the kind of answer that folks are curious about regarding the current situation. That the difference has anything to do with whether metal or cloth is easier to farm in the real world seems extremely unlikely.

Ok, I’ll put it more simple. Anet designed the Silk sink because of two reasons:

1) Silk was abundant and useless initially. Changing bolt requirements from 2 to 3 helped to eliminate a lot of the excess.
2) Anet wanted to give crafters a way to make money. They knew the demand for Damask bolts would make them valuable, so keeping the requirements for cloth Ascended armor high would keep Damask pricey.

It’s an artificial scarcity created to serve a purpose. Dig through John’s posts from last year, and you’ll find the source of my info.

ps – I have close to 80 Lumps of Mithrillium just sitting around to prepare for such a time when I’ll need it. So if they flip the switch on something, I’m fully prepared for the shortages.

making money on crafting isnt about the minimum value of an item. Its about how much money you can make between the cost of materials, and the cost people are willing to pay for a finished product.

case in point, exalted doesnt really give more profit than nobles.

Nike.2631:

phys.7689:

A)ok, i will admit the reality is not that simple, but, thats supposedly what an ideal economy is supposed to promote.

I’m fairly certain Daniel Kahneman won a Nobel Prize in economics for proving that ideal economies CAN’T exist… because right now they are made up of humans .

((note to self – go read up on his “Prospect Theory”))

but the fact that you cant be perfect doesnt mean you should accept everything

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

William Bradley Knight.2609:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If the point is Cloth armor taking cloth, and Metal armor taking ingots, then yes, it’s a good design. If the point is player preference dictating which armor type your character uses, then it’s a matter of dice you rolled.

If you buy an electric car, but have no outlets in your garage to charge the vehicle, is the system of electric vehicles flawed?

Players have more demand for cloth materials than metal ones. Sure there are less faucets for cloth, but that makes sense. In a medieval period, harvesting crops, chopping trees, and mining metals would be a lot easier than to tan a cow’s hide. You can’t farm cloth as easily in the real world, but I sure can knock down that tree in my back yard, and make logs.

Cloth armor requiring cloth is not part of the design that is being questioned. Cloth armor requiring more cloth than metal armor requiring metal is the part of the design in question. Real world analogues are not particularly relevant for an MMO.

What if tomorrow, ANet flipped a switch and the current requirements for cloth and metal for ascended armor were switched? What would be the reason for such a change? The answer to that question is the kind of answer that folks are curious about regarding the current situation. That the difference has anything to do with whether metal or cloth is easier to farm in the real world seems extremely unlikely.

Ok, I’ll put it more simple. Anet designed the Silk sink because of two reasons:

1) Silk was abundant and useless initially. Changing bolt requirements from 2 to 3 helped to eliminate a lot of the excess.
2) Anet wanted to give crafters a way to make money. They knew the demand for Damask bolts would make them valuable, so keeping the requirements for cloth Ascended armor high would keep Damask pricey.

It’s an artificial scarcity created to serve a purpose. Dig through John’s posts from last year, and you’ll find the source of my info.

ps – I have close to 80 Lumps of Mithrillium just sitting around to prepare for such a time when I’ll need it. So if they flip the switch on something, I’m fully prepared for the shortages.

making money on crafting isnt about the minimum value of an item. Its about how much money you can make between the cost of materials, and the cost people are willing to pay for a finished product.

case in point, exalted doesnt really give more profit than nobles.

However, Ascended materials are really profitable if you sell the end products. Which is why Anet purposely made Damask valuable.

phys.7689:

Nike.2631:

phys.7689:

A)ok, i will admit the reality is not that simple, but, thats supposedly what an ideal economy is supposed to promote.

I’m fairly certain Daniel Kahneman won a Nobel Prize in economics for proving that ideal economies CAN’T exist… because right now they are made up of humans .

((note to self – go read up on his “Prospect Theory”))

but the fact that you cant be perfect doesnt mean you should accept everything

Believe me, I’m a big fan of striving for improvement even when perfection is unachievable.

In this case I think the point to be made is that any economic speculation based on humans acting like rational actors is like trying to get to the moon while denying the existence of gravity — the core premise is so badly flawed that building on it is meaningless.

John Smith.4610:

Nike.2631:

phys.7689:

A)ok, i will admit the reality is not that simple, but, thats supposedly what an ideal economy is supposed to promote.

I’m fairly certain Daniel Kahneman won a Nobel Prize in economics for proving that ideal economies CAN’T exist… because right now they are made up of humans .

((note to self – go read up on his “Prospect Theory”))

Don’t forget Tversky. This is maybe my favorite economic study of all time.

Indeed. I shouldn’t have shorthanded the authorship (though only one of them lived to receive the award if I remember correctly).

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Aberrant.6749:

The price of scraps has been higher in the past. It’s at about the same price as it was July 9th 2014. Seems like a normal fluctuation to me.

As far as why it takes so many more scraps idk, I didn’t agree with it back when they changed it, but I remember reading that it wasn’t a mistake. I don’t see why it should change now that so many have invested the time and resources to make cloth armor.

The drop rates on cloth do increase with various events (wintersday gave them out from the dusty clothes for example). Too expensive for you right now? Just wait and see what the next event brings and save your gold. The stat difference between exotic and ascended armor is very small anyways.

im starting to realize, that most of the people disagreeing with fixing silk/ascended, are basically just trying to protect their current racket.

Is that so unreasonable? The people wanting it changed are protecting their own interests as well. If you’re an astute light armor users … you ALSO benefit from silk prices.

its very reasonable(reason dictates that you look out for your own best interests), but its also a very bad mechanism for deciding whats good for the game.

essentially, its short sighted. silk being unbalanced in design is not improving the game.

It’s simply a matter of perspective. Yours is from the POV of a light armor user trying to make ascended gear. Mine would be more along the lines of providing goods to people on the market. Anet has MANY perspectives. The difference is that I trust that Anet uses all the perspectives they can think of to make a reasonable decision on how the game should work and I have no reason to think that hasn’t been done here. I don’t trust players to think like that, not even myself.

Silk isn’t unbalanced in design because light users need more of it for ascended gear. That’s a very limited aspect of it’s uses, that statement borders completely ambiguous to me. Seems to me you’re just cherry picking silk use in ascended as SPECIFIC example to make your perspective on the topic seems like the only meaningful one, therefore making is seem the resulting conclusion that silk relation to ascended armor is wrong to be obvious. Not everyone is fooled by this.

I have to parrot JS here. we got 8 pages and nothing compelling to indicate a change is needed here. Price isn’t a problem. He’s also said little about the unbalance between silk in light vs. other armors. Changing that is not an economic issue, it’s purely conceptual.

/inb4 John Smith wins Nobel Prize on virtual economies – theory and applications.

Nike.2631:

phys.7689:

Nike.2631:

phys.7689:

A)ok, i will admit the reality is not that simple, but, thats supposedly what an ideal economy is supposed to promote.

I’m fairly certain Daniel Kahneman won a Nobel Prize in economics for proving that ideal economies CAN’T exist… because right now they are made up of humans .

((note to self – go read up on his “Prospect Theory”))

but the fact that you cant be perfect doesnt mean you should accept everything

Believe me, I’m a big fan of striving for improvement even when perfection is unachievable.

In this case I think the point to be made is that any economic speculation based on humans acting like rational actors is like trying to get to the moon while denying the existence of gravity — the core premise is so badly flawed that building on it is meaningless.

I dont disagree with what you are saying, but my main point was that anet has to simulate innovation, and solving problems better. While in the real world, the best product doesnt always win, in general eventually, a better product replaces an inferior one.

some people are arguing that they should not improve systems due to previous peoples investment, and the current structures in place. And while i think it should be considered, and mitigated, i dont think it should be the primary concern, or a reason not to improve.

key here being, it should be an improvement

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

eithinan.9841:

phys.7689:

im starting to realize, that most of the people disagreeing with fixing silk/ascended, are basically just trying to protect their current racket.

No man, I’m against it because it will invalidate all the effort I have put into getting ascended gear for all my weight classes. I also don’t want the rest of the players who have put in that effort to feel burned either. Phys, you are not taking into account the silent/vocal backlash Anet would get for making silk changes from people who have already finished or are most of the way through the ascended grind.

edit:

Aberrant.6749:

Seems more like you’ve already made up your mind about what you want and won’t listen to anyone else and just toss aside what they have to say by trying to attack their character instead of the argument itself.

well said.

many people fear/dislike progress for these reasons. But are the old situations really better?
Cell phones destroyed beepers
Internet gutted magazines
Automobiles replaced horses
Planes reduced buses/trains

I do think people the designers should definately consider people who adopted early, but they shouldnt become crippled by it. Id rather they create a superior system than preserve a bad one just to keep the status quo.

Basically at this point people are like
yeah its a flawed system, but it doesnt cause the world to implode
yeah its a flawed system, but i bought into it already
yeah its a flawed system, but i profit from it.

to me, none of these are good reasons to keep a flawed system. In a real economy, flawed systems cannot stand, because they are inherently inferior to better solutions. So anet, in order to keep the game world improving/competitive has to simulate innovation, or else peoples desire to keep things the same, will lead to stagnation and long term dissatisfaction.

Now, the big caveat to this, is they have to deliver better solutions, not just change for the sake of change. I am all about better solutions, and an improved game world.

I dont agree at all that its a flawed system because its working as intended.

most systems work as intended.

the first car was built to have automated travel
it did its job, it worked as intended
its design was still flawed/inferior to later cars.

a beeper worked as intended, it let someone one know you wanted to talk to them. its design is still inferior to that of a cell phone.

factories were working as intended, their design was still flawed
http://io9.com/5955311/the-london-fog-that-killed-over-ten-thousand-people

But as JS pointed out, he hasnt seen a good argument to change the status quo, so please invent a better car first before saying the current one is flawed.

i don’t think the issue for players is individual price or availability of silk. the issue is apparent when looking at crafting recipes. silk is a tier 6 crafting ingredient. so is mithril.

to craft 1 deldrimor steel ingot, a player needs to refine 100 mithril ore into 50 mithril ingots to make the daily gated ingredient. at 43 copper each, that’s 43 silver.

to craft 1 bolt of damask, a player needs to refine 300 silk scraps into 100 bolts of silk in order to craft the daily component required for damask. at a cost of 2 silver 9 copper each, that’s well over 6 gold.

43 silver for one component in one recipe, 6 gold for the equivalent component in another recipe of the same tier.

this is another example of tiers within tiers (or rather, not treating recipes in the same tier the same) other examples of treating recipes in the same tier differently, is level 80 exotic crafting.

for example

at launch, orichalcum imbued inscriptions followed the recipe pattern: 5 orichalcum plated dowels, 5 ectos, 5 fine tier 6 crafting ingredients.

all the new inscriptions (added after launch, such as nomad’s, zealot’s, celestial) require many more custom ingredients. (such as 500 watchwork sprockets, or daily gated charged quartz crystals, which require 25 quartz crystals each, for a total of 125 quartz crystals)

there is a great disparity hear. one recipe in the tier requires 5 raw tier 6 ingredients, while another recipe in the same tier requires 500 raw tier 7 mats, further refined. (i call them tier 7 mats because they are not available as drops from killing level 80ish enemies. they are only available through specific events which are no longer in the game, or from singular gathering nodes, which are mostly only available in home instances on a daily timer)

again, the issue here is the disparity between recipes of the same tier, being treated as though they are different tier recipes. all exotic recipes need to be the same tier formula for the recipes. all ascended recipes need to follow the same tier formula for the recipes. Otherwise, what’s the point of splitting them into exotic and ascended to begin with?

Forgotten Legend.9281:

i don’t think the issue for players is individual price or availability of silk. the issue is apparent when looking at crafting recipes. silk is a tier 6 crafting ingredient. so is mithril.

to craft 1 deldrimor steel ingot, a player needs to refine 100 mithril ore into 50 mithril ingots to make the daily gated ingredient. at 43 copper each, that’s 43 silver.

to craft 1 bolt of damask, a player needs to refine 300 silk scraps into 100 bolts of silk in order to craft the daily component required for damask. at a cost of 2 silver 9 copper each, that’s well over 6 gold.

43 silver for one component in one recipe, 6 gold for the equivalent component in another recipe of the same tier.

this is another example of tiers within tiers (or rather, not treating recipes in the same tier the same) other examples of treating recipes in the same tier differently, is level 80 exotic crafting.

for example

at launch, orichalcum imbued inscriptions followed the recipe pattern: 5 orichalcum plated dowels, 5 ectos, 5 fine tier 6 crafting ingredients.

all the new inscriptions (added after launch, such as nomad’s, zealot’s, celestial) require many more custom ingredients. (such as 500 watchwork sprockets, or daily gated charged quartz crystals, which require 25 quartz crystals each, for a total of 125 quartz crystals)

there is a great disparity hear. one recipe in the tier requires 5 raw tier 6 ingredients, while another recipe in the same tier requires 500 raw tier 7 mats, further refined. (i call them tier 7 mats because they are not available as drops from killing level 80ish enemies. they are only available through specific events which are no longer in the game, or from singular gathering nodes, which are mostly only available in home instances on a daily timer)

again, the issue here is the disparity between recipes of the same tier, being treated as though they are different tier recipes. all exotic recipes need to be the same tier formula for the recipes. all ascended recipes need to follow the same tier formula for the recipes. Otherwise, what’s the point of splitting them into exotic and ascended to begin with?

Not all items in the same tier are acquired the same nor used the same.

Mojo Gris Gris.5941:

Nike.2631:

There are a couple things that could be done to make the situation more equitable, but ArenaNet knows that and has chosen not to. This is a live game not a drawing board exercise so any changes in the name of symmetry and/or justice have to not badly disrupt the experience of early adopters who’ve already paid the higher prices.

Very few suggestions address the fact the system has already been out in the wild for a year now.

Wanze.8410:

I dont agree at all that its a flawed system because its working as intended.

I’ve been convinced by some arguments that the “problem” of silk prices doesn’t have an easy solution. But if the system is working as intended and not at all “broken,” why then did Anet decide to add cloth supply temporarily during an event? It’s pure speculation on my part, but I think they wanted a trial run for adding new sources of cloth with the opportunity to inject supply along a timeline that could be monitored and analyzed for pros/cons. I see the temporary injection as a choice by Anet to try to analyze what would happen to the market should they add more sources. This signifies, to me, they see some sort of problem worth addressing.

Exactly.
But a problem doesnt mean its broken. Remember that most changes to the economy are implemented in order to be good, long lasting solutions, not quick fixes. So i agree with you that the added cloth supply in season 2 was intended to bring the cloth price down, which peaked at 3.5s in oct.

I think a gradual decline of prices, how it was done with silk now, is better than sudden price dumps, like elder wood experienced, which lost 75% of its value within 2 weeks after foxfire clusters got introduced.

I also think that this is a way easier option for the devs, compared to balancing and adding cloth nodes all over tyria and reducing the silk drops from over 1000 items that salvage into silk and containers that drop silk.

Forgotten Legend.9281:

~~~snip~~~

See below

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Ok, I’ll put it more simple. Anet designed the Silk sink because of two reasons:

1) Silk was abundant and useless initially. Changing bolt requirements from 2 to 3 helped to eliminate a lot of the excess.
2) Anet wanted to give crafters a way to make money. They knew the demand for Damask bolts would make them valuable, so keeping the requirements for cloth Ascended armor high would keep Damask pricey.

It’s an artificial scarcity created to serve a purpose. Dig through John’s posts from last year, and you’ll find the source of my info.

Wanze.8410:

But as JS pointed out, he hasnt seen a good argument to change the status quo, so please invent a better car first before saying the current one is flawed.

The argument to change the status quo would be that the current system economically favors players choosing heavy armor classes over those who choose light armor classes. What is the economic reason for this? Why would it not make the game better to make the two fairly similar? This does not even require a change in supply, demand, or price for silk. Why not (for example) increase the demand for leather or ore or decrease the supply of each until the cost of ascended armor for the three tiers are similar?

Like I said before, it doesn’t matter to me. I don’t speculate in any of these markets nor do I have a preference for a particular class nor have I bothered to buy ascended armor. I am just really curious what is the method to ANet’s madness here.

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

eithinan.9841:

phys.7689:

im starting to realize, that most of the people disagreeing with fixing silk/ascended, are basically just trying to protect their current racket.

No man, I’m against it because it will invalidate all the effort I have put into getting ascended gear for all my weight classes. I also don’t want the rest of the players who have put in that effort to feel burned either. Phys, you are not taking into account the silent/vocal backlash Anet would get for making silk changes from people who have already finished or are most of the way through the ascended grind.

edit:

Aberrant.6749:

Seems more like you’ve already made up your mind about what you want and won’t listen to anyone else and just toss aside what they have to say by trying to attack their character instead of the argument itself.

well said.

many people fear/dislike progress for these reasons. But are the old situations really better?
Cell phones destroyed beepers
Internet gutted magazines
Automobiles replaced horses
Planes reduced buses/trains

I do think people the designers should definately consider people who adopted early, but they shouldnt become crippled by it. Id rather they create a superior system than preserve a bad one just to keep the status quo.

Basically at this point people are like
yeah its a flawed system, but it doesnt cause the world to implode
yeah its a flawed system, but i bought into it already
yeah its a flawed system, but i profit from it.

to me, none of these are good reasons to keep a flawed system. In a real economy, flawed systems cannot stand, because they are inherently inferior to better solutions. So anet, in order to keep the game world improving/competitive has to simulate innovation, or else peoples desire to keep things the same, will lead to stagnation and long term dissatisfaction.

Now, the big caveat to this, is they have to deliver better solutions, not just change for the sake of change. I am all about better solutions, and an improved game world.

I dont agree at all that its a flawed system because its working as intended.

most systems work as intended.

the first car was built to have automated travel
it did its job, it worked as intended
its design was still flawed/inferior to later cars.

a beeper worked as intended, it let someone one know you wanted to talk to them. its design is still inferior to that of a cell phone.

factories were working as intended, their design was still flawed
http://io9.com/5955311/the-london-fog-that-killed-over-ten-thousand-people

But as JS pointed out, he hasnt seen a good argument to change the status quo, so please invent a better car first before saying the current one is flawed.

before you can build a better car you must first
1)acknowledge/identifity the problems, or shortcomings of the current car
2)hypothesize various solutions
3)test the solutions, find problems, correct problems
4)release a better car.

this discussion is still in 1 and 2 phase, mostly in the 1) phase.
it does no good if your primary argument for why the current system is a good design, is that it is the current system.

John, please let me know if your following quote doesn’t apply here.

John Smith.4610:

This is spiraling. Let’s stop discussing possible “solutions”. Before discussing a solution you must first prove a problem. I have yet to see any evidence internally or externally that there is a problem.

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Aberrant.6749:

The price of scraps has been higher in the past. It’s at about the same price as it was July 9th 2014. Seems like a normal fluctuation to me.

As far as why it takes so many more scraps idk, I didn’t agree with it back when they changed it, but I remember reading that it wasn’t a mistake. I don’t see why it should change now that so many have invested the time and resources to make cloth armor.

The drop rates on cloth do increase with various events (wintersday gave them out from the dusty clothes for example). Too expensive for you right now? Just wait and see what the next event brings and save your gold. The stat difference between exotic and ascended armor is very small anyways.

im starting to realize, that most of the people disagreeing with fixing silk/ascended, are basically just trying to protect their current racket.

Is that so unreasonable? The people wanting it changed are protecting their own interests as well. If you’re an astute light armor users … you ALSO benefit from silk prices.

its very reasonable(reason dictates that you look out for your own best interests), but its also a very bad mechanism for deciding whats good for the game.

essentially, its short sighted. silk being unbalanced in design is not improving the game.

It’s simply a matter of perspective. Yours is from the POV of a light armor user trying to make ascended gear. Mine would be more along the lines of providing goods to people on the market. Anet has MANY perspectives. The difference is that I trust that Anet uses all the perspectives they can think of to make a reasonable decision on how the game should work and I have no reason to think that hasn’t been done here. I don’t trust players to think like that, not even myself.

Silk isn’t unbalanced in design because light users need more of it for ascended gear. That’s a very limited aspect of it’s uses, that statement borders completely ambiguous to me. Seems to me you’re just cherry picking silk use in ascended as SPECIFIC example to make your perspective on the topic seems like the only meaningful one, therefore making is seem the resulting conclusion that silk relation to ascended armor is wrong to be obvious. Not everyone is fooled by this.

I have to parrot JS here. we got 8 pages and nothing compelling to indicate a change is needed here. Price isn’t a problem. He’s also said little about the unbalance between silk in light vs. other armors. Changing that is not an economic issue, it’s purely conceptual.

Its not really about me getting cloth cheaper, its about having a good design. I dont really intrinsicly trust that anyone is anything. Going off of the history of the game, anet has made some misteps. I think that it is likely they will make more, this is ok. But the fact they will likely make some misteps, means that identifying, discussing, and understanding these misteps, and non misteps, is of value.

As for the increasing value of gathering items. That is fine, it is even reccomended. But increasing the value of gathered items does not require high end clothcraft to be unbalanced. It doesnt really benefit from one item being over valued, and other items being undervalued.

heres what i think a gatherer values, he wants to be able to target his efforts into the things that are profitable, and he wants to get good value for the work he puts in. You can achieve both of those, without placing that weight onto one classes progression.

As far as the myriad uses of silk.
Im sorry but most of those myriad uses were already in play. The change that propeled silk from 10 copper to 2-3 silver was the introduction of ascended. this implies, that ascended is the primary force driving the value of silk.
you also believe this to be true, if you didnt think it was the case, you would not have any logical reason to be against lowering the requirement to 50 bolts of silk, or the amount of scraps required back to 2.

Wanze.8410:

Mojo Gris Gris.5941:

Nike.2631:

There are a couple things that could be done to make the situation more equitable, but ArenaNet knows that and has chosen not to. This is a live game not a drawing board exercise so any changes in the name of symmetry and/or justice have to not badly disrupt the experience of early adopters who’ve already paid the higher prices.

Very few suggestions address the fact the system has already been out in the wild for a year now.

Wanze.8410:

I dont agree at all that its a flawed system because its working as intended.

I’ve been convinced by some arguments that the “problem” of silk prices doesn’t have an easy solution. But if the system is working as intended and not at all “broken,” why then did Anet decide to add cloth supply temporarily during an event? It’s pure speculation on my part, but I think they wanted a trial run for adding new sources of cloth with the opportunity to inject supply along a timeline that could be monitored and analyzed for pros/cons. I see the temporary injection as a choice by Anet to try to analyze what would happen to the market should they add more sources. This signifies, to me, they see some sort of problem worth addressing.

Exactly.
But a problem doesnt mean its broken. Remember that most changes to the economy are implemented in order to be good, long lasting solutions, not quick fixes. So i agree with you that the added cloth supply in season 2 was intended to bring the cloth price down, which peaked at 3.5s in oct.

I think a gradual decline of prices, how it was done with silk now, is better than sudden price dumps, like elder wood experienced, which lost 75% of its value within 2 weeks after foxfire clusters got introduced.

I also think that this is a way easier option for the devs, compared to balancing and adding cloth nodes all over tyria and reducing the silk drops from over 1000 items that salvage into silk and containers that drop silk.

the cost analysis of fixing the problem is a valid discussion, if we acknowledge there is a problem.
if we are moving on to that phase, i would suggest that having to constantly monitor and adjust the faucets manually, will be less effective, and more time consuming in the long run, than setting up systems that can be self regulatory.