Guild Wars 2

phys.7689:

my take on it, silk in relationship to damask and ascended is a problem. You will continue to see people complaining about it periodically for this reason. Even amongst those who dont complain, i think a great many view it as suboptimal.

personally, i dont have an issue with silk in relation to damask. while it could be a problem, its much less of a problem than other markets where demand doesnt/cant outstrip supply. the markets that flump down to minimum price and have 2m+ units sitting there (and theres more than just leather. snowflakes, rare halloweeny mats, ambrite). yes the vendor price is of course a nice out to slurp up the oversupply, but realistically people would rather just hang on to that junk because loading up their currently selling tab with 200×250 sell orders has little opportunity cost. what really needs to happen is for anet to put in some way to drain away tons of excess supply — manipulating the amount of silk to make damask, zephyrite sanctum vendors, halloween pails, candy corn gobbler, wintersday gift mf recipe. all of those markets are healthier because of the giant drains (although.. snowflakes… ouch). the markets that are unhealthy are ridiculously high volume and do not have kitten sinks. silk is ridiculously high volume and has a big sink.

insanemaniac.2456:

phys.7689:

my take on it, silk in relationship to damask and ascended is a problem. You will continue to see people complaining about it periodically for this reason. Even amongst those who dont complain, i think a great many view it as suboptimal.

personally, i dont have an issue with silk in relation to damask. while it could be a problem, its much less of a problem than other markets where demand doesnt/cant outstrip supply. the markets that flump down to minimum price and have 2m+ units sitting there (and theres more than just leather. snowflakes, rare halloweeny mats, ambrite). yes the vendor price is of course a nice out to slurp up the oversupply, but realistically people would rather just hang on to that junk because loading up their currently selling tab with 200×250 sell orders has little opportunity cost. what really needs to happen is for anet to put in some way to drain away tons of excess supply — manipulating the amount of silk to make damask, zephyrite sanctum vendors, halloween pails, candy corn gobbler, wintersday gift mf recipe. all of those markets are healthier because of the giant drains (although.. snowflakes… ouch). the markets that are unhealthy are ridiculously high volume and do not have kitten sinks. silk is ridiculously high volume and has a big sink.

the markets, in terms of the individual value may get better, but the gameplay associated with those changes are not always better.

For example the halloween 2
yeah, candy corn went up in value.
but no, halloween did not feel like a rewarding experience for it.
and no obtaining halloween skins did not feel good.

Some changes designed to increase item value, i would say were hits, but others i would say is a miss.
Silk in ascended is a miss to me, because it is imbalanced in cost, and the requirement pass a point of comfortability which makes people disengage from the activity, which is designed to be a main activity.

John Smith.4610:

Sounds to me like two independent issues being discussed.
1. Aggregate price for silk and market velocity
2. Farming for individual mats is hard

I would argue that these issues aren’t actually related and shouldn’t be discussed as if they were.

I think the biggest issue at hand is that it takes twice as much silk (100 silk bolts vs 50 thick leather, 50 mithril ingots, and 50 elder wood planks) as the other Tier 5 mats required to make the ectoplasm refinement materials. Please explain to us why this is the case when the only source of silk is breaking down light armor drops, where you can get mithril and elder wood from mining/chopping down trees AND salvaging. It’s easier to get the other mats AND you need less of them.

If you only needed 50 bolts of silk to make the starter mat for damask it would be more balanced (though still more expensive because like I said, there are fewer ways to get silk than mithril or elder wood).

You could possibly alleviate more of the difference by making bolts of silk require 2 scraps each rather than 3.

Silk was at vendor +1c before ascended came along. It was begging to be used.

I think if the number of bolts of silk were get from 100 to 50 like the refined T5 amount in the other two ascended crafted mats, the halving of demand would likely drop the price as more of that demand gets filled. Overall it would still be in greater demand that the T5 leather so it’s unlikely that the supply would become a glut that would gut the price.

But JS knows better than us the actual amount of silk scrap flowing into the TP if not the world Vs real demand. Halving the number of bolts may be too much and silk scraps would return to a glut condition. We don’t have the data.

Behellagh.1468:

Silk was at vendor +1c before ascended came along. It was begging to be used.

I think if the number of bolts of silk were get from 100 to 50 like the refined T5 amount in the other two ascended crafted mats, the halving of demand would likely drop the price as more of that demand gets filled. Overall it would still be in greater demand that the T5 leather so it’s unlikely that the supply would become a glut that would gut the price.

But JS knows better than us the actual amount of silk scrap flowing into the TP if not the world Vs real demand. Halving the number of bolts may be too much and silk scraps would return to a glut condition. We don’t have the data.

If that is the case, i would alter supply to be more player controlled, or try to create more varied sinks that were non essential

Dave.2536:

The point I was making was that it balances itself by simply playing the game. If your target is fractal levels where you know you NEED ascended armor, then I would question anyone that doesn’t have the funds to access the necessary materials to make it by that time in the game. Frankly, if a player doesn’t, they aren’t balancing their gameplay.

Sorry, but this amounts to “the rich can take care of themselves and the rest of us shouldn’t care about them”. Light armor is imbalanced and silk makes up a huge portion of the difference. Of course we’re going to look at the cost of silk.

That leads to the REAL problem with ascended gear … you have to do things that AREN’T fractals to progress in fractals. This has nothing to do with the cost of silk.

No. And this is where you’re dead wrong about the purpose of ascended gear, including armor. Even ANet disagrees that it’s solely for Fractals.

By the way, the extra defense from ascended armor actually shows the biggest relative returns on light armor vs medium and heavy, so the tank/WvW examples were very valid and on point.

Don’t be sorry, just stop trying to make bad arguments. This isn’t a ‘rich vs. poor’ thread; everyone needs silk for ascended gear and it’s expensive for everyone to buy silk.

It’s comical you state I’m wrong about the purpose of Ascended armor. I, in fact, never said what its purpose was; I’m simply basing my argument off the idea of what is necessary for progression. I do know you need ascended armor to progress in higher level fractals. I also know you DON’T need it for WvW.

That’s just one of a few reasons why basing any argument to change the relation of silk to ascended armor based on WvW ‘progression’ is nonsense.

Cloth is a problem.
Leather is a problem.

Devildoc.6721:

John Smith.4610:

Sounds to me like two independent issues being discussed.
1. Aggregate price for silk and market velocity
2. Farming for individual mats is hard

I would argue that these issues aren’t actually related and shouldn’t be discussed as if they were.

I think the biggest issue at hand is that it takes twice as much silk (100 silk bolts vs 50 thick leather, 50 mithril ingots, and 50 elder wood planks) as the other Tier 5 mats required to make the ectoplasm refinement materials. Please explain to us why this is the case when the only source of silk is breaking down light armor drops, where you can get mithril and elder wood from mining/chopping down trees AND salvaging. It’s easier to get the other mats AND you need less of them.

If you only needed 50 bolts of silk to make the starter mat for damask it would be more balanced (though still more expensive because like I said, there are fewer ways to get silk than mithril or elder wood).

You could possibly alleviate more of the difference by making bolts of silk require 2 scraps each rather than 3.

If that’s really the issue then double the amount of leather and mithril that is needed. Problem solved as all three are now even.

Ayrilana.1396:

Devildoc.6721:

John Smith.4610:

Sounds to me like two independent issues being discussed.
1. Aggregate price for silk and market velocity
2. Farming for individual mats is hard

I would argue that these issues aren’t actually related and shouldn’t be discussed as if they were.

I think the biggest issue at hand is that it takes twice as much silk (100 silk bolts vs 50 thick leather, 50 mithril ingots, and 50 elder wood planks) as the other Tier 5 mats required to make the ectoplasm refinement materials. Please explain to us why this is the case when the only source of silk is breaking down light armor drops, where you can get mithril and elder wood from mining/chopping down trees AND salvaging. It’s easier to get the other mats AND you need less of them.

If you only needed 50 bolts of silk to make the starter mat for damask it would be more balanced (though still more expensive because like I said, there are fewer ways to get silk than mithril or elder wood).

You could possibly alleviate more of the difference by making bolts of silk require 2 scraps each rather than 3.

If that’s really the issue then double the amount of leather and mithril that is needed. Problem solved as all three are now even.

But oh the rage about how leather would be even more expensive as you need twice as much leather for leatherworking, plus the cloth. Same with heavy armor. Now everything basically doubles in price, and then we have yet another discussion on how everything needs to revert back to 2 pieces instead of 3. How unreliable it is to farm, and how it only helps the very rich, and those who want to pay with their credit card, and how that is a pay to win system, and how unfair it all is.

Argon.1563:

Is this an issue ArenaNet doesn’t care about, or is it just something they’re aware of, but don’t want to discuss right now?

They can care about it without wanting to change it . Not much discussion required for that, now is there?

One thing I’ve noticed about this thread (and ones like it) is that people are using the same language to discuss several, distinct issues, which aren’t directly related:

1. Is there a problem with the market price of silk?
2. Are people frustrated with the market price of silk?
3. Is the system used to acquire silk similar enough to that for other basic mats?
4. Is the system used to acquire silk “unfair?”
5. If any of the above is true, is it something that ANet ought to address?

Those are all interesting and (usually) reasonable questions to ask. However, we tend to mix them all up in the same conversation and use the same words to mean different things.

People who are dissatisfied with the status quo, for good reason or not, tend to call the system “broken.” This causes the forum’s market experts to (correctly) point out, no, the system is working as designed. This frustrates the first group, who don’t understand the fuss about the word, “broken” and correctly point out that the system isn’t parallel to that used for wood (harvested from nodes) or even leather (which isn’t needed for insignia). The marketeers then point out that a vibrant and healthy economy uses a variety of mechanisms, so that prices aren’t identically for everything. And the first group, even more frustrated than before, tries to start over, since the responders “obviously” just don’t get it.

Personally, I don’t feel the need to acquire silk by farming it. I hate farming anything. So if I want to make one damask/day, I buy it, funding my efforts by selling stuff that just accumulates. And yeah, that means selling a ton of mithril (or whatever) to keep myself in just a bit of silk.

That works for me, but I can see why some people feel that it lacks a certain MMO/roleplaying panache and would prefer to gather their own directly and why they get frustrated trying to find 100 bolts/day.

The chain of questions I’d like John Smith to take a crack at is: are there too many people that are too frustrated by the status quo? Or does it seem to be a tiny minority? Can you tell if large segments of the community just gave up on crafting their own damask, because it was too grindy? Or does it look like people are being economically responsive, by farming (or accumulating) gold to buy silk and/or damask?

One change that I think might be interesting and not too disruptive would be change insignia so they can be crafted with leather (either in addition to or instead of cloth). This would put pressure on leather to rise (seemingly a good outcome) and some (but not too much) downward pressure on silk. I suspect it would mean introducing a new type of insignia (for new recipes, but also so that existing stocks of insignia don’t become devalued instantly). For example, maybe allow sinister leather insignia to be sold, even tho sinister cloth insignia can’t be sold

I find it more annoying that if i do a fair amount of dungeons and a fractal or two in a day i can manage to get enough leather, wood, and mithril to craft the time gated mats. Maybe not the entire amount but factoring in the cost of those mats from the tp, enough that it doesnt really take away from my gold. Silk on the other hand ill end up with at max 40 bolts of silk, and thats if im lucky, often times i get 30 or so. Buying the other 50-70 is like another 4-5g on top. The mats are already time gated putting a pressure on the player to make sure to craft it every day…yet you cant manage to get enough mats to craft it every day. The whole experience just feels backwards. I think they should both put the amount of silk needed to 50 and make it drop more from salvaging since we cant get it from nodes. I dont mind having to purchase the mats from the tp to craft it every day, but i shouldnt have to spend as much as i do each time, and i should feel like the silk i get from playing the game is actually worthwhile.

Then there is linen…
Oh and the lower leathers…

Whole market is messed up.

John Smith.4610:

phys.7689:

pdavis.8031:

phys.7689:

pdavis.8031:

Argon.1563:

Hm. What I find strange, is that John Smith posted on here, but only to comment on the validity of the thread, rather than the topic itself.

Is this an issue ArenaNet doesn’t care about, or is it just something they’re aware of, but don’t want to discuss right now?

It is something they are well aware of, and in fact John Smith said several times in various threads about the matter, that Silk was intentional and is working as intended. He also said in regards to player perception of a broken economy, that he doesn’t care. So from those type of statements that he already has made, one can reasonablly assume that in rergards to silk pricing is: that it is fine, its working like it should, and he doesn’t care about the misconception of silk being overpriced.

he said he doesnt care if players are unsatisfied with economy? really?

John Smith.4610:

LordByron.8369:

Question:
Do you care/will do something about the fact game economy is really perceived as broken?
Or if you instead think its well perceived, why don’t you look at every single thread that had the luck to remain for few hours in general section?

There were many threads about how important economy perception is in a videogame.

If by “really perceived” you mean that you mistakenly perceive a fantastic and functioning system as broken, then no… I don’t care.

i dont think this means he doesnt care if players are unsatisfied, merely that he doesnt care if that particular player thinks the economy is broken.

but i could be wrong, perhaps you are right, and he doesnt care.

That statement is taken out of context. Obviously I care about how the community feels about the economy, my activity on these forums should be proof of that. That individual I was speaking to was being intentionally antagonistic.

Yeah my bad…

champ.7021:

I find it more annoying that if i do a fair amount of dungeons and a fractal or two in a day i can manage to get enough leather, wood, and mithril to craft the time gated mats. Maybe not the entire amount but factoring in the cost of those mats from the tp, enough that it doesnt really take away from my gold. Silk on the other hand ill end up with at max 40 bolts of silk, and thats if im lucky, often times i get 30 or so. Buying the other 50-70 is like another 4-5g on top. The mats are already time gated putting a pressure on the player to make sure to craft it every day…yet you cant manage to get enough mats to craft it every day. The whole experience just feels backwards. I think they should both put the amount of silk needed to 50 and make it drop more from salvaging since we cant get it from nodes. I dont mind having to purchase the mats from the tp to craft it every day, but i shouldnt have to spend as much as i do each time, and i should feel like the silk i get from playing the game is actually worthwhile.

I guess, if Anet puts bolt of damask on a 3-day cooldown, you shouldnt have a problem anymore.

Obtena.7952:

Dave.2536:

The point I was making was that it balances itself by simply playing the game. If your target is fractal levels where you know you NEED ascended armor, then I would question anyone that doesn’t have the funds to access the necessary materials to make it by that time in the game. Frankly, if a player doesn’t, they aren’t balancing their gameplay.

Sorry, but this amounts to “the rich can take care of themselves and the rest of us shouldn’t care about them”. Light armor is imbalanced and silk makes up a huge portion of the difference. Of course we’re going to look at the cost of silk.

That leads to the REAL problem with ascended gear … you have to do things that AREN’T fractals to progress in fractals. This has nothing to do with the cost of silk.

No. And this is where you’re dead wrong about the purpose of ascended gear, including armor. Even ANet disagrees that it’s solely for Fractals.

By the way, the extra defense from ascended armor actually shows the biggest relative returns on light armor vs medium and heavy, so the tank/WvW examples were very valid and on point.

Don’t be sorry, just stop trying to make bad arguments. This isn’t a ‘rich vs. poor’ thread; everyone needs silk for ascended gear and it’s expensive for everyone to buy silk.

It’s comical you state I’m wrong about the purpose of Ascended armor. I, in fact, never said what its purpose was; I’m simply basing my argument off the idea of what is necessary for progression. I do know you need ascended armor to progress in higher level fractals. I also know you DON’T need it for WvW.

That’s just one of a few reasons why basing any argument to change the relation of silk to ascended armor based on WvW ‘progression’ is nonsense.

I just noticed this post.

lol
lolol
LOLOLOL

Don’t accuse me of making my own definitions when you’ve been conveniently playing with the words “need” and “progress” throughout this thread to suit your own subjective and egocentric whims.

Even rares and exotics aren’t “needed” going by your standards.

dietzero.3514:

Cloth is a problem.
Leather is a problem.

Even though they’re at the opposite sides of the spectrum by college of problematics standards, indeed.

Dave.2536:

Obtena.7952:

Dave.2536:

The point I was making was that it balances itself by simply playing the game. If your target is fractal levels where you know you NEED ascended armor, then I would question anyone that doesn’t have the funds to access the necessary materials to make it by that time in the game. Frankly, if a player doesn’t, they aren’t balancing their gameplay.

Sorry, but this amounts to “the rich can take care of themselves and the rest of us shouldn’t care about them”. Light armor is imbalanced and silk makes up a huge portion of the difference. Of course we’re going to look at the cost of silk.

That leads to the REAL problem with ascended gear … you have to do things that AREN’T fractals to progress in fractals. This has nothing to do with the cost of silk.

No. And this is where you’re dead wrong about the purpose of ascended gear, including armor. Even ANet disagrees that it’s solely for Fractals.

By the way, the extra defense from ascended armor actually shows the biggest relative returns on light armor vs medium and heavy, so the tank/WvW examples were very valid and on point.

Don’t be sorry, just stop trying to make bad arguments. This isn’t a ‘rich vs. poor’ thread; everyone needs silk for ascended gear and it’s expensive for everyone to buy silk.

It’s comical you state I’m wrong about the purpose of Ascended armor. I, in fact, never said what its purpose was; I’m simply basing my argument off the idea of what is necessary for progression. I do know you need ascended armor to progress in higher level fractals. I also know you DON’T need it for WvW.

That’s just one of a few reasons why basing any argument to change the relation of silk to ascended armor based on WvW ‘progression’ is nonsense.

I just noticed this post.

lol
lolol
LOLOLOL

Don’t accuse me of making my own definitions when you’ve been conveniently playing with the words “need” and “progress” throughout this thread to suit your own subjective and egocentric whims.

Even rares and exotics aren’t “needed” going by your standards.

There is no playing … the concept of what you NEED is simple. Are you actually trying to say you don’t need ascended armor for higher level fractals? Would you mind telling us how you get your AR without it to do level 50 fractals? (I know what you’re going to say … I’ve got an answer for that, trust me).

Obtena.7952:

Dave.2536:

Obtena.7952:

Dave.2536:

The point I was making was that it balances itself by simply playing the game. If your target is fractal levels where you know you NEED ascended armor, then I would question anyone that doesn’t have the funds to access the necessary materials to make it by that time in the game. Frankly, if a player doesn’t, they aren’t balancing their gameplay.

Sorry, but this amounts to “the rich can take care of themselves and the rest of us shouldn’t care about them”. Light armor is imbalanced and silk makes up a huge portion of the difference. Of course we’re going to look at the cost of silk.

That leads to the REAL problem with ascended gear … you have to do things that AREN’T fractals to progress in fractals. This has nothing to do with the cost of silk.

No. And this is where you’re dead wrong about the purpose of ascended gear, including armor. Even ANet disagrees that it’s solely for Fractals.

By the way, the extra defense from ascended armor actually shows the biggest relative returns on light armor vs medium and heavy, so the tank/WvW examples were very valid and on point.

Don’t be sorry, just stop trying to make bad arguments. This isn’t a ‘rich vs. poor’ thread; everyone needs silk for ascended gear and it’s expensive for everyone to buy silk.

It’s comical you state I’m wrong about the purpose of Ascended armor. I, in fact, never said what its purpose was; I’m simply basing my argument off the idea of what is necessary for progression. I do know you need ascended armor to progress in higher level fractals. I also know you DON’T need it for WvW.

That’s just one of a few reasons why basing any argument to change the relation of silk to ascended armor based on WvW ‘progression’ is nonsense.

I just noticed this post.

lol
lolol
LOLOLOL

Don’t accuse me of making my own definitions when you’ve been conveniently playing with the words “need” and “progress” throughout this thread to suit your own subjective and egocentric whims.

Even rares and exotics aren’t “needed” going by your standards.

There is no playing … the concept of what you NEED is simple. Are you actually trying to say you don’t need ascended armor for higher level fractals? You play this game right?

I’m saying that the “need” you’re trying to argue is not the same as what others here are talking about.

For discussion to have any purpose, there is an implicit and common assumption that rares and exotics are needed. The question is whether or not ascended (armor if we want to be specific) is also needed under the same context.

If we evaluate need on the objective basis of BiS and “improvement”, ascended is needed for progression to BiS.

Evaluated on the subjective basis of enough, if we accept that ascended armor is not enough of a gain over the previous tier, we find that the same argument can apply to exotic and rare armor. The tiny gain from upgrading armor is tiny whether we upgrade from masterwork to rare, rare to exotic, or exotic to ascended. But if this argument holds, then our assumption about the necessity of rare and exotic falls apart.

tl;dr: Your subjective use of “need” centered around “enough” has no place in the discussion as extending it violates any possible commonly agreed upon baseline for “need”. Because of this, we fall back to the objective connotation around BiS and “improvement”.

PS: Your adorable attempt at diversion is noted and ignored.

Dave.2536:

Obtena.7952:

Dave.2536:

Obtena.7952:

Dave.2536:

The point I was making was that it balances itself by simply playing the game. If your target is fractal levels where you know you NEED ascended armor, then I would question anyone that doesn’t have the funds to access the necessary materials to make it by that time in the game. Frankly, if a player doesn’t, they aren’t balancing their gameplay.

Sorry, but this amounts to “the rich can take care of themselves and the rest of us shouldn’t care about them”. Light armor is imbalanced and silk makes up a huge portion of the difference. Of course we’re going to look at the cost of silk.

That leads to the REAL problem with ascended gear … you have to do things that AREN’T fractals to progress in fractals. This has nothing to do with the cost of silk.

No. And this is where you’re dead wrong about the purpose of ascended gear, including armor. Even ANet disagrees that it’s solely for Fractals.

By the way, the extra defense from ascended armor actually shows the biggest relative returns on light armor vs medium and heavy, so the tank/WvW examples were very valid and on point.

Don’t be sorry, just stop trying to make bad arguments. This isn’t a ‘rich vs. poor’ thread; everyone needs silk for ascended gear and it’s expensive for everyone to buy silk.

It’s comical you state I’m wrong about the purpose of Ascended armor. I, in fact, never said what its purpose was; I’m simply basing my argument off the idea of what is necessary for progression. I do know you need ascended armor to progress in higher level fractals. I also know you DON’T need it for WvW.

That’s just one of a few reasons why basing any argument to change the relation of silk to ascended armor based on WvW ‘progression’ is nonsense.

I just noticed this post.

lol
lolol
LOLOLOL

Don’t accuse me of making my own definitions when you’ve been conveniently playing with the words “need” and “progress” throughout this thread to suit your own subjective and egocentric whims.

Even rares and exotics aren’t “needed” going by your standards.

There is no playing … the concept of what you NEED is simple. Are you actually trying to say you don’t need ascended armor for higher level fractals? You play this game right?

I’m saying that the “need” you’re trying to argue is not the same as what others here are talking about.

There isn’t multiple definitions of need. Ascended armor is needed for higher level fractals for AR slots. It’s not needed for anything else. If people have re-invented the definition of need or made ‘common assumptions’ to justify their fragile, nonsensical arguments, that’s not my fail, it’s theirs. The idea that ‘need’ is based on some commonly accepted baseline is just nonsense and shows a lack of comprehension of the English language. Need is defined by requirements, not people’s perception or universal acceptance.

Obtena.7952:

There isn’t multiple definitions of need. You need ascended armor for higher level fractals and nothing else. If people have re-invented the definition of need to justify their fragile, nonsensical arguments, that’s not my fail, it’s theirs.

Your definition of “need” falls on the notion that it must be required to complete content, and anything not required is not needed.

I can do dungeons in full white gear without runes or sigils. In fact my regular dungeon group could probably all wear full white gear and get runs faster than a lot of yolo pug groups. Does that mean everything blue and higher is not “needed”?

If so, then your “need” is a different need than what everyone else here is arguing for. If not, then you’ve been using “need” in multiple ways, either ignorantly or deceptively.

Your egocentricity is so precious.

Dave.2536:

If so, then your “need” is a different need than what everyone else here is arguing for.

Ok, so you want to add hierarchy of needs into you argument. The counter to this is simple … that’s not an objective position and silk prices or it’s relation to ascended can’t be balanced based on individual players ‘needs’. Got any more bad arguments to make?

Obtena.7952:

Dave.2536:

If so, then your “need” is a different need than what everyone else here is arguing for.

Ok, so you want to add hierarchy of needs into you argument. The counter to this is simple … that’s not an objective position and silk prices or it’s relation to ascended can’t be balanced based on individual players ‘needs’. Got any more bad arguments to make?

I can’t really respond to non sequiturs because they’re about as effective as your condi guardian builds. Not much to do other than stand there wondering if you were actually being serious.

You got me.

No, you can’t respond because you know I speak the truth. The idea this needs to be changed simply because some people don’t like it is a really weak. All other arguments are easily dismissed, even your precious ‘needs hierarchy’ based on individual player requirements. The individual ‘needs’ argument works against you to … I have a ‘need’ for silk to stay priced as high as possible. Trying to associate a players ‘needs’ with changing this is a joke.

The only real issue I see with Ascended armor is that it’s gear gating content and getting it requires completion of content that isn’t fractals, where it’s needed (the ‘real’ needed, not the one people are imagining).

Argon.1563:

Hm. What I find strange, is that John Smith posted on here, but only to comment on the validity of the thread, rather than the topic itself.

Is this an issue ArenaNet doesn’t care about, or is it just something they’re aware of, but don’t want to discuss right now?

Why post on the topic itself when the topic subject is clearly functioning as intended, and doing it spectacularly? Commenting on the validity just serves to keep the thread on point. So it’s probably less “dont want to discuss” and more “we only care enough at the moment to watch because players are crying over a working system.” Frankly I think JS is maniacally laughing in his closet office at Anet HQ (wonder if they installed soundproofing yet?) whenever he doesnt need to post on the forums. Although… since he IS the economist…. he could secretly be Rich Uncle Pennybags.

As for those complaining about the price of damask, have you actually looked at what it’s used in and made of? Of the ~11g crafting cost, 58% of it is silk, 19% is linen (which by weight is roughly 50% more expensive). Now, look at something like Deldrimor. Barely 17% of it’s crafting cost is it’s T5 material. In fact, if mithril drops by 10-20 copper, it’s going to be cheaper than the ecto you need.

Now, for kittens and grins, here’s elonian leather: less than 8% of it’s crafting cost, which is about a 20s loss by the way.

If anything, this doesnt say silk and damask is a problem. This says mithril, wood, and leather are the problem. Mithril and elder wood are probably by far more used as ascended materials than silk ever is, due to be used in every weapon, and mithril being used in every heavy armor. Yet their prices are a good amount less than damask. Leather is basically a joke, even though, it takes 3 pieces of leather to refine.

So I gotta ask, why isnt mithril, elder wood, and thick leather going up in price?

edit: obtena, it is possible to get 70+ AR without armor 60 from trinkets and 10 from weapons

John Smith.4610:

That statement is taken out of context. Obviously I care about how the community feels about the economy, my activity on these forums should be proof of that. That individual I was speaking to was being intentionally antagonistic.

Hi john, could you please share some insight on why you don’t feel it’s a good idea to reduce the cost of crafting damask from 100 bolts of silk down to 50?

Or reducing the linen required from 20 bolts down to 10 bolts, since it’s a t4 mat and costs nearly 5s per linen at the moment, which is basically double of any other material of it’s tier.

Damask is over 4x the price of any other ascended mat, required for every single piece of ascended armor regardless of type, and takes even more if you’re a light armor wearer. Seems a bit unfair and wonky.

Aidan Savage.2078:

edit: obtena, it is possible to get 70+ AR without armor 60 from trinkets and 10 from weapons

Yes, I was waiting for someone to post this because there isn’t even a valid argument to change silk/ascended armor relation from the perspective of needing it to progress in fractals. The case to change this only gets weaker. Next time someone uses progression in fractals as a reason, I will point this out to them.

A +10 Ar infusion is a bit less than 50G … I think the economics favours simply getting these over a full set of ascended armor with +5 AR ones.

Wanze.8410:

champ.7021:

I find it more annoying that if i do a fair amount of dungeons and a fractal or two in a day i can manage to get enough leather, wood, and mithril to craft the time gated mats. Maybe not the entire amount but factoring in the cost of those mats from the tp, enough that it doesnt really take away from my gold. Silk on the other hand ill end up with at max 40 bolts of silk, and thats if im lucky, often times i get 30 or so. Buying the other 50-70 is like another 4-5g on top. The mats are already time gated putting a pressure on the player to make sure to craft it every day…yet you cant manage to get enough mats to craft it every day. The whole experience just feels backwards. I think they should both put the amount of silk needed to 50 and make it drop more from salvaging since we cant get it from nodes. I dont mind having to purchase the mats from the tp to craft it every day, but i shouldnt have to spend as much as i do each time, and i should feel like the silk i get from playing the game is actually worthwhile.

I guess, if Anet puts bolt of damask on a 3-day cooldown, you shouldnt have a problem anymore.

that would be incredibly unbalanced with respect to other materials aquisition. I know you arent really serious, but you cant come up with solutions that ignore all their other interactions and have a good answer.
In math terms this would be solving a system of equations.

essentially you need to get an answer that solves ALL of the issues, not just one or two. The current design of silk within ascended has many flaws.

Wow 4 pages on this, really this could be applied to many items on the trading post, and its always the same answer,

Its Supply and Demand

According to gw2spidy

Silk Scrap

Supply:
661876

Demand:
733908

Hence the price going up, its the same with everything when there is more demand than a supply.

I find Silk 1 of the easier lower end mats to farm, nearly every zone if not all zones you can farm it fairly easy,

The price will continue to climb providing.

A. the demand outstrips the supply
B. people wanting to buy it instead of farming it

Id be disappointed if Anet stepped in here and changed any values etc, as that would lead to a lot more issues in the long run.

Obtena.7952:

Aidan Savage.2078:

edit: obtena, it is possible to get 70+ AR without armor 60 from trinkets and 10 from weapons

Great, so there isn’t even a valid argument to change silk/ascended armor relation from the perspective of needing it to progress in fractals. The case to change this only gets weaker. Next time someone uses progression in fractals as a reason, I will point this out to them.

you could theoretically get 70AR on one item but it would cost an insane amount of gold and grinding.

he was probably assuming every accessory could be infused, and that infusion was 5 agony resistance, its not really the case.
back and rings can be infused, the other 3 cant.
so without agony infusion, you are looking at 30 ar on rings, and 10 from weapons
which means you would need to get 30 AR from infusions to have 70 without ascended armor
which means you need to obtain at least three +10 ar infusions

building that yourself would require 3 x (512 infusions 7.64npc gold) or 150 gold on the market.
if you have ascended you can get 72 ar by doing 8 +4ar infusions
8x (8 infusions10.47npc gold) or 7.3 gold on the market

keep in mind that fractals is one of the poorer paying game types in gold per hour.

now, lets look at current tp costs for ascended
315 gold for a full set of coth
166 gold for a full set of leather
208 gold for full set of metal

so since you only 5/6 pieces, to get 72 AR
you can not buy the most expensive piece
knock it down to
250 gold for cloth
133 gold for leather
173 gold for metal

this means a leather user can basically get more defense, max AR and more dps for 140 gold
an armor user can get get in the same AR/armor class for 180 gold
and the cloth user must pay 257 gold

it also means that getting +10 AR(in order to hit cap) infusions is stupid for a leather user
not a good idea for armor user
but an ok idea for a clothy, even though he will be weaker and take more dmg if he chooses that path.

essentially a cloth person has to work almost 80% harder for the same power level as a leather user, and 40% harder for the same power level as a metal user

sorry thats a BIG BIG problem imo

Ok I Did It.2854:

Wow 4 pages on this, really this could be applied to many items on the trading post, and its always the same answer,

Its Supply and Demand

According to gw2spidy

Silk Scrap

Supply:
661876

Demand:
733908

Hence the price going up, its the same with everything when there is more demand than a supply.

I find Silk 1 of the easier lower end mats to farm, nearly every zone if not all zones you can farm it fairly easy,

The price will continue to climb providing.

A. the demand outstrips the supply
B. people wanting to buy it instead of farming it

Id be disappointed if Anet stepped in here and changed any values etc, as that would lead to a lot more issues in the long run.

the OP posts this within the context of damask aka ascended

while the price of silk, alone may be ok
the price of silk per damask is 7.5 gold
as compared to the price of other t5 materials in ascended of .5 gold

keep in mind these things should be virtually the same price in order for ascended recipes to make sense/be balanced as a form of progression

Obtena.7952:

Aidan Savage.2078:

edit: obtena, it is possible to get 70+ AR without armor 60 from trinkets and 10 from weapons

Yes, I was waiting for someone to post this because there isn’t even a valid argument to change silk/ascended armor relation from the perspective of needing it to progress in fractals. The case to change this only gets weaker. Next time someone uses progression in fractals as a reason, I will point this out to them.

A +10 Ar infusion is a bit less than 50G … I think the economics favours simply getting these over a full set of ascended armor with +5 AR ones.

not true, if you are a leather user, or a metal user according to my previous post.

there are no infused necklace or earrings, that was aidan’s error

so yeah, you can be the weak guy in your party and save 20 gold over the armor user, or spend 10 more gold than the leather user to be weak
.

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

Aidan Savage.2078:

edit: obtena, it is possible to get 70+ AR without armor 60 from trinkets and 10 from weapons

Great, so there isn’t even a valid argument to change silk/ascended armor relation from the perspective of needing it to progress in fractals. The case to change this only gets weaker. Next time someone uses progression in fractals as a reason, I will point this out to them.

you could theoretically get 70AR on one item but it would cost an insane amount of gold and grinding.

Yes, that’s true. However the economics balances out, even negatively, then I just revert back to my previous point that the main issue with Acsended armor is that you have to do non-fractal stuff to get it; the only place it’s NEEDED. Any claim that SIlk/ascended armor relation needs to be changed because of progression melts away for anything but the highest level fractals again.

phys.7689:

essentially a cloth person has to work almost 80% harder for the same power level as a leather user, and 40% harder for the same power level as a metal user

sorry thats a BIG BIG problem imo

It’s not that big if you actually look at the impact the increase gives you between exotic vs. ascended armor. Of course it’s clear our opinions differ and I’m not sure why you think a cost difference for a negligible effect is such a BIG BIG problem, but I don’t. The fact that the cost to benefit ratio is so high for ascended compared to exotic suggests that this was a thoughtful and intentional implementation to ensure that the difference in performance is insignificant and a deterrent to QQing about how low the increase is.

Problem:
Players, especially new players, who want to main a light profession and want to go for ascended gear have a disadvantage compared to other professions because of the huge difference in price and quantity required between Light armor main component, Damask, and other ascended mats.

Currently:
Damask at 14g

You need for a full armor set (source wiki):
25 Damask for Heavy (350g)
24 Damask for Medium (336g)
36 Damask for Light (504g)

The possible solutions to the problem are (they can all be considered applicable together):

1) lower the number of bolts of silk required to craft Damask from 100 to 50 like the other ascended mats need;
(if you need, you can change the 25 Spool of Gossamer Thread for the 10 thermocatalytic Reagent)

2) since silk cannot be mined or chopped, increase the chance to get silk from savaging blues and greens (since leather and silk are both present in Medium and Light armor, make it so you get minimum 1 leather and 1 silk scrap by savaging leather and light armor);
OR
2a) create worldwide nodes for clothes (creating a node for silk scraps won’t be fair unless it would be a new kind of node all over the map like ores and trees. Maybe harvest new kinds of trees or ambiental creatures only for cloth?);

In general:
- adjust supplies of silk scraps by keeping them on the same line of the other mats.

The quantities of Damask needed for ascended Light gear don’t need to be changed. The new ways to get silk scraps and the new quantities it requires should lower the price of Damask by generating more supplies that are not unbalanced compared to the way you get other mats.

Incomes of silk scraps and the price of Damask are unfortunately related so, John, it is a problem that must be solved on both frontlines.

The design decisions to make silk (a lesser material) worth more than a higher tier material “Gossamer” makes no sense at all.

Brimstar.9036:

The design decisions to make silk (a lesser material) worth more than a higher tier material “Gossamer” makes no sense at all.

That’s b/c they are just based on macro economic numbers with disregard to most everything else. Common sense? Doesn’t matter. Fun? Doesn’t matter. Eloquent? Doesn’t matter. Sum:(1-n)</>Sum(1-r)=x Means Everything……you know b/c numbers are the only things that matter :/

Obtena.7952:

The only real issue I see[/u] with Ascended armor

Yes, yes. Problem found.

(the ‘real’ needed, not the one people are imagining)

Yes, about as real as the viability of condition guardians. This is gold.

T6 mats are always difficult to get while T5 isn’t. That’s why all crafted ascended mats require T2-T5 mats in their creation.

Now pre-ascended armor Gossamer was more expensive than Silk. Ascended Armor hit with the Dec 10, 2013 patch. On the 3rd Gossamer was 4.95s while Silk was 9c. This was when Exotic was the highest quality to craft. Those wanting BiS was crafting Exotic and using Gossamer to do it. By the time a month passed, 1/10/14, Gossamer was already down to 1.61s and Silk was 2.36s.

Gossamer supply jumped by 360k, tripling supply from 12/9 to 1/10 while Silk supply plummeted by 2.6 million to just 6% of it’s supply from a month before. Obviously a shift from crafting Exotic to Ascended.

Essence Snow.3194:

Brimstar.9036:

The design decisions to make silk (a lesser material) worth more than a higher tier material “Gossamer” makes no sense at all.

That’s b/c they are just based on macro economic numbers with disregard to most everything else.

I don’t think that’s too far from the actual reason the price of specific mats on the market are not a problem, even though you’re attempting to make it like the macro economics aren’t important. The market approach this game only works if items have non-trivial value to them. The more items that do that, the better the market works and encourages people to find ways to use it to their advantage. The real losers are the people that don’t recognize how significant the market is in the game and only contribute to the market with exchanging gold for materials.

The tier of the material and it’s value are not related nor should Anet attempt to relate them. Is there a valid reason to do so?

If the silk requirement for a bolt of damask were reduced from 300 to 150 silk scraps, what do you think happens to the price of a silk scrap? What do you think happens to the price of a bolt of damask?

Answer: I’m going to bet they at least double if not more, because people are sheep and don’t think if they need it. They just get it because ‘progression’ or ‘stats’ or ‘need it just because’.

Dave.2536:

…

I knew you wouldn’t be able to stay away for too long. Are you babbling on about Guardians in a silk/ascended armor thread because you ran out of ‘need’ definitions to make nonsensical arguments with?

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

champ.7021:

I find it more annoying that if i do a fair amount of dungeons and a fractal or two in a day i can manage to get enough leather, wood, and mithril to craft the time gated mats. Maybe not the entire amount but factoring in the cost of those mats from the tp, enough that it doesnt really take away from my gold. Silk on the other hand ill end up with at max 40 bolts of silk, and thats if im lucky, often times i get 30 or so. Buying the other 50-70 is like another 4-5g on top. The mats are already time gated putting a pressure on the player to make sure to craft it every day…yet you cant manage to get enough mats to craft it every day. The whole experience just feels backwards. I think they should both put the amount of silk needed to 50 and make it drop more from salvaging since we cant get it from nodes. I dont mind having to purchase the mats from the tp to craft it every day, but i shouldnt have to spend as much as i do each time, and i should feel like the silk i get from playing the game is actually worthwhile.

I guess, if Anet puts bolt of damask on a 3-day cooldown, you shouldnt have a problem anymore.

that would be incredibly unbalanced with respect to other materials aquisition. I know you arent really serious, but you cant come up with solutions that ignore all their other interactions and have a good answer.
In math terms this would be solving a system of equations.

essentially you need to get an answer that solves ALL of the issues, not just one or two. The current design of silk within ascended has many flaws.

Youre right, i wasnt serious. But I also havent seen a single solution pointed out here that would remedy everything and wouldnt inflict other problems.

But I do know that Anet rebalanced cloth output in general since season 2 started, which resulted in lower costs for silk and bolt of damask. Damask went from 17g to 13g (over 20%) and bolt of silk went from 11.5s to 5.75s (50%) in about 3 months.
So their macro-economic solution seems to work just fine.

Just because people complain that they cant farm 300 scraps of silk per day doesnt mean that the amount is unreasonable because you still have to consider the supply that comes in from people that have no use for it. If everybody could farm his daily needs in a timely manner, it will result in oversupply pretty quick (see leather).

3 months ago is when winter festival started and created a huge cloth influx, are you sure there actually an output increase in other areas? I don’t think there was and it will go back to price we saw in November over the next month.

So basically, what I’ve learned from this thread so far is…

Add cloth gathering nodes to open world? They have some in home instances. It’s a bit strange, but in areas of PvE where there are camps you could have cloth nodes. Maybe a pile of dead enemies that you can gather scraps from every day. :P

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

Aidan Savage.2078:

edit: obtena, it is possible to get 70+ AR without armor 60 from trinkets and 10 from weapons

Great, so there isn’t even a valid argument to change silk/ascended armor relation from the perspective of needing it to progress in fractals. The case to change this only gets weaker. Next time someone uses progression in fractals as a reason, I will point this out to them.

you could theoretically get 70AR on one item but it would cost an insane amount of gold and grinding.

he was probably assuming every accessory could be infused, and that infusion was 5 agony resistance, its not really the case.
back and rings can be infused, the other 3 cant.
so without agony infusion, you are looking at 30 ar on rings, and 10 from weapons
which means you would need to get 30 AR from infusions to have 70 without ascended armor
which means you need to obtain at least three +10 ar infusions

No, I wasnt. Necklace and accessories can only be socketed with a versatile infusion. That’s 15 AR. Backpieces and both rings have both types of sockets, which means 15 AR (30 total) from Versatile infusions, and +10 agony infusions in the remaining slots adds another 30 AR (60 total). The remaining 10 comes from weapons.

Second, you need to understand that “grinding” is irrelevant to this argument, which is saying ascended armor was a necessity for Fractals. It’s not. 70 AR is needed ONLY for 50 FoTM (50 AR iirc for 41-49).

Additionally, disregarding daily rewards and pristines, running fractals from 1 to 49 gives you 461 fractal relics. Assuming you only run 5 fractals each day, you’re getting 2 pristine relics a day for 10 days, which gives another 15 relics when broken down. This gives you the versatile infusions you need by the end.

Furthermore, an intelligent player would know that while +10s would get you the minimum AR necessary for a 50 FoTM, +9s cut that cost in half, and means you only suffer ~3.5% per tick. Still even further, by that point in time, you’d have seen at least 1 ascended armor drop out of fractals. For free. Even if the stats were kitten, the loss of stats is acceptable compared to the prospects of death from agony.

So no, phys, I did not make an error. Afterall, I have roughly 85 AR for kittens and grins and run fractals quite frequently.

edit: to everyone else; Stop making your arguments on the SELL LISTING PRICE of damask. It’s a fool’s argument and will be treated as such. Use the CRAFTING price of damask and other T7s.

Silk prices dropped for wintersday, and it is simply making a recovery

http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/19748

All of those people salvaging the beautiful knit items flooded the market, and prices are finally recovering.

Aidan Savage.2078:

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

Aidan Savage.2078:

edit: obtena, it is possible to get 70+ AR without armor 60 from trinkets and 10 from weapons

Great, so there isn’t even a valid argument to change silk/ascended armor relation from the perspective of needing it to progress in fractals. The case to change this only gets weaker. Next time someone uses progression in fractals as a reason, I will point this out to them.

you could theoretically get 70AR on one item but it would cost an insane amount of gold and grinding.

he was probably assuming every accessory could be infused, and that infusion was 5 agony resistance, its not really the case.
back and rings can be infused, the other 3 cant.
so without agony infusion, you are looking at 30 ar on rings, and 10 from weapons
which means you would need to get 30 AR from infusions to have 70 without ascended armor
which means you need to obtain at least three +10 ar infusions

No, I wasnt. Necklace and accessories can only be socketed with a versatile infusion. That’s 15 AR. Backpieces and both rings have both types of sockets, which means 15 AR (30 total) from Versatile infusions, and +10 agony infusions in the remaining slots adds another 30 AR (60 total). The remaining 10 comes from weapons.

Second, you need to understand that “grinding” is irrelevant to this argument, which is saying ascended armor was a necessity for Fractals. It’s not. 70 AR is needed ONLY for 50 FoTM (50 AR iirc for 41-49).

Additionally, disregarding daily rewards and pristines, running fractals from 1 to 49 gives you 461 fractal relics. Assuming you only run 5 fractals each day, you’re getting 2 pristine relics a day for 10 days, which gives another 15 relics when broken down. This gives you the versatile infusions you need by the end.

Furthermore, an intelligent player would know that while +10s would get you the minimum AR necessary for a 50 FoTM, +9s cut that cost in half, and means you only suffer ~3.5% per tick. Still even further, by that point in time, you’d have seen at least 1 ascended armor drop out of fractals. For free. Even if the stats were kitten, the loss of stats is acceptable compared to the prospects of death from agony.

So no, phys, I did not make an error. Afterall, I have roughly 85 AR for kittens and grins and run fractals quite frequently.

edit: to everyone else; Stop making your arguments on the SELL LISTING PRICE of damask. It’s a fool’s argument and will be treated as such. Use the CRAFTING price of damask and other T7s.

so basically you are saying you need 3 level 10 Ar infusions.

you can use level +9s if you want, but since the agony instability does consistent damage throughout the level, you will be taking 3.5 times as much damage as some one in the proper gear. from what i have seen most groups request 70AR for fractal 50 probably for this reason.

i will say my calculations on the costs were off, BIG MISTAKE i didnt count the insignias, which is a substantial difference in cost. so you can disregard that,

as for using the sell prices or the buy prices, it tends to be arbitrary in terms of the ratios you may save 10%, but you probably also save 10% on the other items.