Guild Wars 2

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

An interesting question came up in the other thread:

If any ascended armor set, regardless of weight, would cost the same, would people still argue that the silk price is too high?
If you add the value of 1 each deldrimor, elonian and damask, it costs about 20g. So if every mat would cost 6.66g and the sets use 42 t7 mats overall to craft, would people still complain about silk?

I would be fine with that.

Edit: That would mean 1 set would cost about 350g and weapons would be 10-20g more expensive.

if their was no disparity, people wouldnt complain about disparity.
If the cost of a mat was 6.7g i dont think people would be that upset about costs

people may still want more direct means of working towards it, and to feel like they have realistic choices for obtaining items, but that wouldnt be as closely tied to the price, because the price would likely not be that bad. (and not liking the price increases the amount of people who want to get it themselves)

Well, of course its a bit more complicated to balance out all three mats. Damask would lose about 50% in value and i think that devaluation could come from either t2-5 cloth. leather would rise over 200% in value and it also can come from any t2-5 leather.
However, deldrimors value will rise about 60% and that added value cant really come from mithril because it would add a couple of hundred gold to precursor prices, so platinum and iron have to rise in price.

Now, some people complain that silk isnt directly farmable and see it as a problem.
I already mentioned that i dont see it as a problem because you can buy it on the tp and just farm the gold neccesary to buy it but some people dont like that either.

But what if silk would become a choice reward for certain completed content and the amount you get relates to its value on the tp?

For example, the lowest listing for a silk scrap is 2s atm, so at the end of a completed dungeon, you get the choice to either get rewarded 1.5g or 75 silk scraps? IF the price rises to 3s, you would only get the choice between 1.5g and 50 scraps.
That would give people, who rather farm silk directly than buying it with gold on the tp, the chance to do so.

At first this seems like a pointless change to me but you have to keep in mind that the silk rewarded at the end of the dungeon wont come off the tp, it will be created, once chosen. So instead of adding wealth to the economy in form of gold, a completed dungeon will add wealth in form of silk supply.

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

An interesting question came up in the other thread:

If any ascended armor set, regardless of weight, would cost the same, would people still argue that the silk price is too high?
If you add the value of 1 each deldrimor, elonian and damask, it costs about 20g. So if every mat would cost 6.66g and the sets use 42 t7 mats overall to craft, would people still complain about silk?

I would be fine with that.

Edit: That would mean 1 set would cost about 350g and weapons would be 10-20g more expensive.

if their was no disparity, people wouldnt complain about disparity.
If the cost of a mat was 6.7g i dont think people would be that upset about costs

people may still want more direct means of working towards it, and to feel like they have realistic choices for obtaining items, but that wouldnt be as closely tied to the price, because the price would likely not be that bad. (and not liking the price increases the amount of people who want to get it themselves)

Well, of course its a bit more complicated to balance out all three mats. Damask would lose about 50% in value and i think that devaluation could come from either t2-5 cloth. leather would rise over 200% in value and it also can come from any t2-5 leather.
However, deldrimors value will rise about 60% and that added value cant really come from mithril because it would add a couple of hundred gold to precursor prices, so platinum and iron have to rise in price.

yea, its not easy to balance. I think mithril could be a bit more valuable actually, and precursors is a tricky thing anyhow, because the overall design is going to change soon. And its possible the old design will be altered based on that as well.

overall i think the best ideas would be to normalize the recipes a bit, and make the universal material (insignias) be able to be created with any material.
This would create a soft balancer in prices.

There are probably other ways to go about it though.

Wanze.8410:

Now, some people complain that silk isnt directly farmable and see it as a problem.
I already mentioned that i dont see it as a problem because you can buy it on the tp and just farm the gold neccesary to buy it but some people dont like that either.

But what if silk would become a choice reward for certain completed content and the amount you get relates to its value on the tp?

For example, the lowest listing for a silk scrap is 2s atm, so at the end of a completed dungeon, you get the choice to either get rewarded 1.5g or 75 silk scraps? IF the price rises to 3s, you would only get the choice between 1.5g and 50 scraps.
That would give people, who rather farm silk directly than buying it with gold on the tp, the chance to do so.

At first this seems like a pointless change to me but you have to keep in mind that the silk rewarded at the end of the dungeon wont come off the tp, it will be created, once chosen. So instead of adding wealth to the economy in form of gold, a completed dungeon will add wealth in form of silk supply.

the method of getting it directly shouldnt really be based on the TP, it should be more based on the value its supposed to have, as an item within the framework of how its used.
I think JS prefers coming at it from a TP macro side, because that is his forte, but Id say first you should decide how much work should someone have to do to create this item, then start coming up with how much you give them.
Then you let the market decide how valuable they find that type of time/play required to get it.

the advantage to the bottom up approach in pricing, is that you are more likely to get people satisfied with the price point that is reached. Assuming there is no coercion.

Obtena.7952:

I haven’t seen any that it should be either. Funny ay?

You need to actually read posts for that…

Who’s not reading posts?

Obtena.7952:

Who’s not reading posts?

Me, I tune out when some people post. I find a single quote and work off that. At this point the same arguments keep coming up. some of them are valid, and some of them are counter to the way the economy works, and some are just absurd.

OT: leather dropped a little in price. It really needs to have a material sink that isn’t the zephyrites.

I’m still astounded that people haven’t come to realize Anet has address this with an approach that works in their scheme for the development of the game. That’s where the ‘discussion’ ends for me. If this can’t be recognized, then it’s clear the only thing people are after is for THEIR fix idea to be implemented; no other will do.

just reduce the silk requirement to 50 bolts. deldrimore ingot needs 50 mitril ingot. elonian leather needs 50 T5 leather square. why do they need to make damask need 100 silk bolt ?

why is this thread still rising?

azizul.8469:

just reduce the silk requirement to 50 bolts. deldrimore ingot needs 50 mitril ingot. elonian leather needs 50 T5 leather square. why do they need to make damask need 100 silk bolt ?

I’m guessing the supply and demand models they used showed that 50 wouldn’t be enough to turn silk into a viable traded mat (having a value greater than vendor + 1c, now vendor / 0.85).

If any ascended armor set, regardless of weight, would cost the same, would people still argue that the silk price is too high?

Not likely, since “trying to make Ascended armor” is the reason most people want silk in bulk, although it wouldn’t stop complaints about other aspects of the economy. I also can’t think of any way they could lower the price of Ascended cloth that wouldn’t simultaneously lower the cost of silk, so that’s two birds with one stone.

If you add the value of 1 each deldrimor, elonian and damask, it costs about 20g. So if every mat would cost 6.66g and the sets use 42 t7 mats overall to craft, would people still complain about silk?

I would be fine with that.

I think the goal would be to make the prices less expensive, I think your goal of making everything more expensive would be unpopular.

Of course they are … they are opinions. My opinion isn’t less valid because it’s different than yours or any idea about what you think the game should be like.

I said that.

Well, of course its a bit more complicated to balance out all three mats. Damask would lose about 50% in value and i think that devaluation could come from either t2-5 cloth. leather would rise over 200% in value and it also can come from any t2-5 leather.
However, deldrimors value will rise about 60% and that added value cant really come from mithril because it would add a couple of hundred gold to precursor prices, so platinum and iron have to rise in price.

You know, the more you talk about how flawlessly balanced the in-game economy it is, the more it sounds like a 30ft high Jenga stack just waiting for a stiff breeze.

For example, the lowest listing for a silk scrap is 2s atm, so at the end of a completed dungeon, you get the choice to either get rewarded 1.5g or 75 silk scraps? IF the price rises to 3s, you would only get the choice between 1.5g and 50 scraps.
That would give people, who rather farm silk directly than buying it with gold on the tp, the chance to do so.

I don’t know. It’s better than buying it off the TP, but it still seems to be a cop-out to just get a “cash equivalent amount of silk.” I still think Mulberry bushes would be better.

yea, its not easy to balance. I think mithril could be a bit more valuable actually, and precursors is a tricky thing anyhow, because the overall design is going to change soon. And its possible the old design will be altered based on that as well.

Yeah, “it’ll ruin the Precursor market” is a nonsense proposition at this point. The Precursor market WILL be changing significantly, that ship is sailing, and we’re assuming that they have plans to shift it in the least disruptive manner possible, but doing so could also involve changes to the materials that currently interact with the Precursor markets.

the method of getting it directly shouldnt really be based on the TP, it should be more based on the value its supposed to have, as an item within the framework of how its used.
I think JS prefers coming at it from a TP macro side, because that is his forte, but Id say first you should decide how much work should someone have to do to create this item, then start coming up with how much you give them.
Then you let the market decide how valuable they find that type of time/play required to get it.

the advantage to the bottom up approach in pricing, is that you are more likely to get people satisfied with the price point that is reached. Assuming there is no coercion.

Agreed. It’s the game designers job to decide roughly where the prices should be, and then design the systems that add supply/demand or reduce supply/demand to reach that price. If they have a target price for Silk and the player market misses that price high significantly then that means they have done a poor job of providing sources for that mat within the world, or made the uses of it too compelling, and if it misses drastically low then they’ve made it too easy to acquire, or not worth having. And if they haven’t bothered to determine a target price in the first place then they’re just asleep at the wheel.

I’m guessing the supply and demand models they used showed that 50 wouldn’t be enough to turn silk into a viable traded mat (having a value greater than vendor + 1c, now vendor / 0.85).

And they were wrong. I would argue that even if they were convinced they were right on that, this was still a stupid thing to do, simply because Damask is such an evergreen product. It will always be in demand. They should have kept Damask in balance with the other mats, and if they wanted Silk to sell better, they should have used more short term sinks, or used a more optional item for imbalance, like maybe having a level 80 rare armor set use more than usual amounts of it, enough to slightly increase demand, but not over the top. Or they could have just trimmed supply a bit. Having Damask permanently cost twice as much T5 as any other mat was just an inevitable balance issue.

Wanze.8410:

Now, some people complain that silk isnt directly farmable and see it as a problem.
I already mentioned that i dont see it as a problem because you can buy it on the tp and just farm the gold neccesary to buy it but some people dont like that either.

But what if silk would become a choice reward for certain completed content and the amount you get relates to its value on the tp?

For example, the lowest listing for a silk scrap is 2s atm, so at the end of a completed dungeon, you get the choice to either get rewarded 1.5g or 75 silk scraps? IF the price rises to 3s, you would only get the choice between 1.5g and 50 scraps.
That would give people, who rather farm silk directly than buying it with gold on the tp, the chance to do so.

At first this seems like a pointless change to me but you have to keep in mind that the silk rewarded at the end of the dungeon wont come off the tp, it will be created, once chosen. So instead of adding wealth to the economy in form of gold, a completed dungeon will add wealth in form of silk supply.

Frankly silk isnt an issue. It never was. An ideal solution would be to increase the requirements for leather, mithril, and the elder wood for ascended refinements. This would remove their prices from being so low.

• Elder wood: 32c/1s19c as of post
• Mithril: 44c/94c as of post
• thick leather: 10c/33c as of post
• silk: 2s9c/7s34c as of post

Which of the above doesnt match? Silk. That’s what. Why? Thick leather is nearly npc price despite only being obtained in the same way as silk, and is used for 2/3 ascended (and normal) armor weights. Why the sheer disparity? Mithril is 20% and less of the value of silk, yet is used in heavy armor and every single ascended weapon. The farmability doesnt account for that difference. Elder wood is exactly the same, and is again, used in every single ascended weapon.

In addition, weight specific insignia will also draw off some of the pressure on silk, and push mithril and leather up as well, as it removes 18 damask from medium and heavy armor, and adds, respectively, 18 elonian leather and 18 deldrimor.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Wanze.8410:

Now, some people complain that silk isnt directly farmable and see it as a problem.
I already mentioned that i dont see it as a problem because you can buy it on the tp and just farm the gold neccesary to buy it but some people dont like that either.

But what if silk would become a choice reward for certain completed content and the amount you get relates to its value on the tp?

For example, the lowest listing for a silk scrap is 2s atm, so at the end of a completed dungeon, you get the choice to either get rewarded 1.5g or 75 silk scraps? IF the price rises to 3s, you would only get the choice between 1.5g and 50 scraps.
That would give people, who rather farm silk directly than buying it with gold on the tp, the chance to do so.

At first this seems like a pointless change to me but you have to keep in mind that the silk rewarded at the end of the dungeon wont come off the tp, it will be created, once chosen. So instead of adding wealth to the economy in form of gold, a completed dungeon will add wealth in form of silk supply.

Frankly silk isnt an issue. It never was. An ideal solution would be to increase the requirements for leather, mithril, and the elder wood for ascended refinements. This would remove their prices from being so low.

• Elder wood: 32c/1s19c as of post
• Mithril: 44c/94c as of post
• thick leather: 10c/33c as of post
• silk: 2s9c/7s34c as of post

Which of the above doesnt match? Silk. That’s what. Why? Thick leather is nearly npc price despite only being obtained in the same way as silk, and is used for 2/3 ascended (and normal) armor weights. Why the sheer disparity? Mithril is 20% and less of the value of silk, yet is used in heavy armor and every single ascended weapon. The farmability doesnt account for that difference. Elder wood is exactly the same, and is again, used in every single ascended weapon.

In addition, weight specific insignia will also draw off some of the pressure on silk, and push mithril and leather up as well, as it removes 18 damask from medium and heavy armor, and adds, respectively, 18 elonian leather and 18 deldrimor.

silk and leather have similar supply, but taking a look at ascended through all weights

damask:elonian:deldrimor is 85:24:16

not only that but in terms of use of basic materials t5,

25500:3600:1600

deldrimor gets a lot of value from weapons, so the low number makes sense, but leather? they created virtually no demand for it with their crafting design.
look at material requirements for LEATHER ascended 7200 silk : 2700 leather.

pretty obvious that leather probably shouldnt be supplied via the same means cloth with a crafting design like this.

Ohoni.6057:

Well, of course its a bit more complicated to balance out all three mats. Damask would lose about 50% in value and i think that devaluation could come from either t2-5 cloth. leather would rise over 200% in value and it also can come from any t2-5 leather.
However, deldrimors value will rise about 60% and that added value cant really come from mithril because it would add a couple of hundred gold to precursor prices, so platinum and iron have to rise in price.

You know, the more you talk about how flawlessly balanced the in-game economy it is, the more it sounds like a 30ft high Jenga stack just waiting for a stiff breeze.

For example, the lowest listing for a silk scrap is 2s atm, so at the end of a completed dungeon, you get the choice to either get rewarded 1.5g or 75 silk scraps? IF the price rises to 3s, you would only get the choice between 1.5g and 50 scraps.
That would give people, who rather farm silk directly than buying it with gold on the tp, the chance to do so.

I don’t know. It’s better than buying it off the TP, but it still seems to be a cop-out to just get a “cash equivalent amount of silk.” I still think Mulberry bushes would be better.

yea, its not easy to balance. I think mithril could be a bit more valuable actually, and precursors is a tricky thing anyhow, because the overall design is going to change soon. And its possible the old design will be altered based on that as well.

Yeah, “it’ll ruin the Precursor market” is a nonsense proposition at this point. The Precursor market WILL be changing significantly, that ship is sailing, and we’re assuming that they have plans to shift it in the least disruptive manner possible, but doing so could also involve changes to the materials that currently interact with the Precursor markets.

the method of getting it directly shouldnt really be based on the TP, it should be more based on the value its supposed to have, as an item within the framework of how its used.
I think JS prefers coming at it from a TP macro side, because that is his forte, but Id say first you should decide how much work should someone have to do to create this item, then start coming up with how much you give them.
Then you let the market decide how valuable they find that type of time/play required to get it.

the advantage to the bottom up approach in pricing, is that you are more likely to get people satisfied with the price point that is reached. Assuming there is no coercion.

Agreed. It’s the game designers job to decide roughly where the prices should be, and then design the systems that add supply/demand or reduce supply/demand to reach that price. If they have a target price for Silk and the player market misses that price high significantly then that means they have done a poor job of providing sources for that mat within the world, or made the uses of it too compelling, and if it misses drastically low then they’ve made it too easy to acquire, or not worth having. And if they haven’t bothered to determine a target price in the first place then they’re just asleep at the wheel.

I’m guessing the supply and demand models they used showed that 50 wouldn’t be enough to turn silk into a viable traded mat (having a value greater than vendor + 1c, now vendor / 0.85).

And they were wrong. I would argue that even if they were convinced they were right on that, this was still a stupid thing to do, simply because Damask is such an evergreen product. It will always be in demand. They should have kept Damask in balance with the other mats, and if they wanted Silk to sell better, they should have used more short term sinks, or used a more optional item for imbalance, like maybe having a level 80 rare armor set use more than usual amounts of it, enough to slightly increase demand, but not over the top. Or they could have just trimmed supply a bit. Having Damask permanently cost twice as much T5 as any other mat was just an inevitable balance issue.

Introducing direct farming would just result in lower silk prices and cheaper ascended armor overall. JS indicated, that they are fine with the current price of ascended armor.
So you have to come up with a new way of direct silk farming that doesnt devalue silk too much. IF they wanted to devalue silk, it seems they already got good means to do that, season 2 showed it.

Introducing direct farming would just result in lower silk prices and cheaper ascended armor overall. JS indicated, that they are fine with the current price of ascended armor.

But again, you are creating circular arguments, because even if one accepts that the price of Ascended Cloth is fine, the price of Ascended Metal/Leather is still cheaper, and the difference is quantities of cloth components. So if Ascended Cloth is the unalterable lynchpin of the economy (a point that I disagree with but will concede for the sake of argument), then the cost of Ascended Metal/Leather should come up to be comparable, even if that were viewed as a nerf.

If it is the average of the three that is judged to be “correct” then both Metal and Cloth would need to come down to meet that. In any case, there’s no justification for why the three armors should have such significantly different costs, and before you start, “the free hand of the markets” is never a justification for anything, it’s merely an excuse.

And if you wanted to maintain all the costs of Ascended armor where they are, you could do that even if silk prices were lowered, by just making it up elsewhere. More Thermo-Cats maybe. For all that you talk up the joys of the TP as a gold sink, components that have to be bought off vendors are even more efficient at it.

But again, my preference would be to lower the cost of all of them to at most the cost of Leather, if not lower. If JS is fine with the current costs, it’s JS that needs to come around on that one if he cares whether the community is fine with the cost of crafting (or anyone above him does).

IF they wanted to devalue silk, it seems they already got good means to do that, season 2 showed it.

It needs to be something sustainable though. If you give players a way to earn Silk through activities, but the players tire of those activities and no longer view them as being worth their time, then that is not a sustainable source. It needs to keep up with where the players want to be.

Ohoni.6057:

But again, my preference would be to lower the cost of all of them to at most the cost of Leather, if not lower. If JS is fine with the current costs, it’s JS that needs to come around on that one if he cares whether the community is fine with the cost of crafting (or anyone above him does).

It needs to be something sustainable though. If you give players a way to earn Silk through activities, but the players tire of those activities and no longer view them as being worth their time, then that is not a sustainable source. It needs to keep up with where the players want to be.

See? You just dont want to spend your daily earned gold on ascended armor but rather on gems for example. I dont know why Anet would want that.

Ohoni.6057:

T6>T5>T4>T3>T2>T1

Ohoni.6057:

But again, my preference would be to lower the cost of all of them to at most the cost of Leather, if not lower.

So you want to crash ALL the ore,wood,cloth,leather markets to vendor+1.

Ohoni.6057:

Introducing direct farming would just result in lower silk prices and cheaper ascended armor overall. JS indicated, that they are fine with the current price of ascended armor.

But again, you are creating circular arguments, because even if one accepts that the price of Ascended Cloth is fine, the price of Ascended Metal/Leather is still cheaper, and the difference is quantities of cloth components. So if Ascended Cloth is the unalterable lynchpin of the economy (a point that I disagree with but will concede for the sake of argument), then the cost of Ascended Metal/Leather should come up to be comparable, even if that were viewed as a nerf.

If it is the average of the three that is judged to be “correct” then both Metal and Cloth would need to come down to meet that. In any case, there’s no justification for why the three armors should have such significantly different costs, and before you start, “the free hand of the markets” is never a justification for anything, it’s merely an excuse.

And if you wanted to maintain all the costs of Ascended armor where they are, you could do that even if silk prices were lowered, by just making it up elsewhere. More Thermo-Cats maybe. For all that you talk up the joys of the TP as a gold sink, components that have to be bought off vendors are even more efficient at it.

But again, my preference would be to lower the cost of all of them to at most the cost of Leather, if not lower. If JS is fine with the current costs, it’s JS that needs to come around on that one if he cares whether the community is fine with the cost of crafting (or anyone above him does).

IF they wanted to devalue silk, it seems they already got good means to do that, season 2 showed it.

It needs to be something sustainable though. If you give players a way to earn Silk through activities, but the players tire of those activities and no longer view them as being worth their time, then that is not a sustainable source. It needs to keep up with where the players want to be.

I dont think that leather prices are anywhere near what the prices for any material should be.
If one thinks ascended overall should be cheaper, thats a discussion, but there is no way that being at vendor price is a good price for anything.
leather is definately not at a good place right now.

See? You just dont want to spend your daily earned gold on ascended armor but rather on gems for example. I dont know why Anet would want that.

I used to think like that, but then I realized that every gem on the market was paid for by a human player, so if I spend 800g on Ascended armor then I’m giving ANet nothing, but if I spend 800g on 5200 gems, that means someone spent ~$40 somewhere.

So you want to crash ALL the ore,wood,cloth,leather markets to vendor+1.

The markets, not necessarily. When I say “the price of leather” in that context, I mean of the final product “Ascended Leather Armor,” which includes a bunch of cloth and other mats. Hopefully they could get the cost of the leather itself to come up a bit, just the cost of the cloth components down a bit, and maybe use less of some of them.

Regardless, the real issue here is the players who don’t have 800g to spend in the first place, much less the 4100g it would take to fully outfit one of each post-HoT character class.

So you want to crash ALL the ore,wood,cloth,leather markets to vendor+1.

As I noted up thread, I’d be looking for something in this range: The current progression, from T1 up, is 1.9, 2.9, 3.9, 4.9, 2.4, 0.5. It should probably be more like 0.5, 0.75, 1.0, 1.25, 1.5, 2. The prices should not be at vendor, but they shouldn’t be so far from vendor either. Anything above vendor*2 is bonus.

I dont think that leather prices are anywhere near what the prices for any material should be.
If one thinks ascended overall should be cheaper, thats a discussion, but there is no way that being at vendor price is a good price for anything.
leather is definately not at a good place right now.

I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with you?

Ohoni.6057:

As I noted up thread, I’d be looking for something in this range: The current progression, from T1 up, is 1.9, 2.9, 3.9, 4.9, 2.4, 0.5. It should probably be more like 0.5, 0.75, 1.0, 1.25, 1.5, 2. The prices should not be at vendor, but they shouldn’t be so far from vendor either. Anything above vendor*2 is bonus.

You are Entitled to your opinion, I disagree with it. I think the prices should not be so constrained and that the prices should be based on supply/demand principles. Your 0.5->2s progression is not possible without an enormous amount of micro managing. It is also impossible with the economics of material promotion where you get about 1/3 of T+1 mats from the previous. the promotion recipes cost 250 t? mats and on average you receive 80ish T?+1.

eithinan.9841:

Ohoni.6057:

As I noted up thread, I’d be looking for something in this range: The current progression, from T1 up, is 1.9, 2.9, 3.9, 4.9, 2.4, 0.5. It should probably be more like 0.5, 0.75, 1.0, 1.25, 1.5, 2. The prices should not be at vendor, but they shouldn’t be so far from vendor either. Anything above vendor*2 is bonus.

You are Entitled to your opinion, I disagree with it. I think the prices should not be so constrained and that the prices should be based on supply/demand principles. Your 0.5->2s progression is not possible without an enormous amount of micro managing. It is also impossible with the economics of material promotion where you get about 1/3 of T+1 mats from the previous. the promotion recipes cost 250 t? mats and on average you receive 80ish T?+1.

This.

Ohoni.6057:

like 0.5, 0.75, 1.0, 1.25, 1.5, 2.

Also, Silk is the only t5 mat that is even close to that 1.5s mark. it has been around 1.8-2.0 for a little while which is a lot closer than the 44c mithril has been hanging around at.

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah, the reasons are pretty easy to understand, the question is why haven’t they fixed it?

They haven’t ‘fixed’ silk because I presume it’s working more or less as intended, as a high demand functioning market for the ultimate end-game armor. The price is a little high, enough so that they’ve introduced cloth through wintersday gifts, silverwastes chests, etc, but not so out of line with expectations that wholesale changes are called for.

I presume they haven’t fixed leather in a similar fashion because they aren’t sure it’ll work the same way, and/or there are internal disagreements about just what should be done.

Ohoni.6057:

See? You just dont want to spend your daily earned gold on ascended armor but rather on gems for example. I dont know why Anet would want that.

I used to think like that, but then I realized that every gem on the market was paid for by a human player, so if I spend 800g on Ascended armor then I’m giving ANet nothing, but if I spend 800g on 5200 gems, that means someone spent ~$40 somewhere.

So you want to crash ALL the ore,wood,cloth,leather markets to vendor+1.

The markets, not necessarily. When I say “the price of leather” in that context, I mean of the final product “Ascended Leather Armor,” which includes a bunch of cloth and other mats. Hopefully they could get the cost of the leather itself to come up a bit, just the cost of the cloth components down a bit, and maybe use less of some of them.

Regardless, the real issue here is the players who don’t have 800g to spend in the first place, much less the 4100g it would take to fully outfit one of each post-HoT character class.

So you want to crash ALL the ore,wood,cloth,leather markets to vendor+1.

As I noted up thread, I’d be looking for something in this range: The current progression, from T1 up, is 1.9, 2.9, 3.9, 4.9, 2.4, 0.5. It should probably be more like 0.5, 0.75, 1.0, 1.25, 1.5, 2. The prices should not be at vendor, but they shouldn’t be so far from vendor either. Anything above vendor*2 is bonus.

I dont think that leather prices are anywhere near what the prices for any material should be.
If one thinks ascended overall should be cheaper, thats a discussion, but there is no way that being at vendor price is a good price for anything.
leather is definately not at a good place right now.

I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with you?

maybe i misread but i thought you said they should all be around the price of leather.

“But again, my preference would be to lower the cost of all of them to at most the cost of Leather, if not lower.”

eithinan.9841:

Ohoni.6057:

T6>T5>T4>T3>T2>T1

Ohoni.6057:

But again, my preference would be to lower the cost of all of them to at most the cost of Leather, if not lower.

So you want to crash ALL the ore,wood,cloth,leather markets to vendor+1.

I agree with Ohoni.6057 on costs. I don’t have much money, and would like to buy cloths for cheap. Everything in this game should be made cheap, so new players can afford the same things as high level players.

Natto.5819:

eithinan.9841:

Ohoni.6057:

T6>T5>T4>T3>T2>T1

Ohoni.6057:

But again, my preference would be to lower the cost of all of them to at most the cost of Leather, if not lower.

So you want to crash ALL the ore,wood,cloth,leather markets to vendor+1.

I agree with Ohoni.6057 on costs. I don’t have much money, and would like to buy cloths for cheap. Everything in this game should be made cheap, so new players can afford the same things as high level players.

new players make about as much money as high level players, well newish. But ascended isnt available until 80 regardless.
So newish 80s, have similar potential to earn as older players.

So, I just began my quest for my ascended gear. I went into my guild bank, and found all the silk I have been hoarding since the beginning of GW2 (If im honest, I saw silk was useless at launch, and I knew ArenaNet were going to do something with it, so I hoarded it.), and I had 3050 pieces of silk…10 bolts of damask…2 years of work…for one third of a light ascended armour set.

At EGX Rezzed this weekend, im going to be asking the devs what they will be doing to fix this mess. Just so ya’ know.

Mr phys.7689

Does that mean I can’t have cheaper cloths until I reach level 80? I don’t think that’s fair. I have 9 silver in my pocket, so I can’t join a craft until I can afford more materials.

Argon.1563:

So, I just began my quest for my ascended gear. I went into my guild bank, and found all the silk I have been hoarding since the beginning of GW2 (If im honest, I saw silk was useless at launch, and I knew ArenaNet were going to do something with it, so I hoarded it.), and I had 3050 pieces of silk…10 bolts of damask…2 years of work…for one third of a light ascended armour set.

At EGX Rezzed this weekend, im going to be asking the devs what they will be doing to fix this mess. Just so ya’ know.

i definately dont disagree with you.
anet has some really bad numbers guys when it comes to player satisfaction.
for a game that decided stacks would only need to go up to 250, they sure make things take 1000-10000 items way too often.

Argon.1563:

So, I just began my quest for my ascended gear. I went into my guild bank, and found all the silk I have been hoarding since the beginning of GW2 (If im honest, I saw silk was useless at launch, and I knew ArenaNet were going to do something with it, so I hoarded it.), and I had 3050 pieces of silk…10 bolts of damask…2 years of work…for one third of a light ascended armour set.

At EGX Rezzed this weekend, im going to be asking the devs what they will be doing to fix this mess. Just so ya’ know.

… and you sat looking at the rest of your 2 years worth of collected mats thinking “Hey, I could sell these on the TP, and make the money I need to buy the rest of the silk I need for a full set of Ascended armor while silk prices are low”.

You’re welcome.

Obtena.7952:

Argon.1563:

So, I just began my quest for my ascended gear. I went into my guild bank, and found all the silk I have been hoarding since the beginning of GW2 (If im honest, I saw silk was useless at launch, and I knew ArenaNet were going to do something with it, so I hoarded it.), and I had 3050 pieces of silk…10 bolts of damask…2 years of work…for one third of a light ascended armour set.

At EGX Rezzed this weekend, im going to be asking the devs what they will be doing to fix this mess. Just so ya’ know.

… and you sat looking at the rest of your collected mats thinking “Hey, I could sell these on the TP, and make the money I need to buy the rest of the silk I need for a full set of Ascended armor while silk prices are low”.

You’re welcome.

I was busy using that money on getting 500 crafting, because, you know, thats something you need for ascended crafting, and I never looked into crafting ascended immediately after it came out. Like I said, I only got round to doing it recently.

My fault for waiting, I know, but it shouldn’t be, because of inconsistencies and breaks in logic, on ArenaNet’s part.

I don’t think it’s Anet’s logic or any inconsistency that leads me to conclude that you aren’t the kind of player suited to make ascended armor.

Obtena.7952:

I don’t think it’s Anet’s fault that you aren’t the kind of player suited to make ascended armor.

I think it is, because I like doing things such as going to sleep on time, and turning my computer off, or eating food, or not burning my eyes out because im “farming” silk perpetually.

Other people that sleep, eat food, etc… have more ascended armor than you. If there is a break in logic here, it’s showing. You obviously have priorities that don’t include setting arbitrary goals in a game. That’s not something you can ‘fault’ Anet for. You feel that your time in game should yield you what you want. That’s not how it works. Clearly you haven’t done enough to get it. Lose the idea that you are ‘owed’ something specific for the time you spent playing the game.

Obtena.7952:

Other people that sleep, eat food, etc… have more ascended armor than you. If there is a break in logic here, it’s showing.

If you say so, dear. Last time I checked, CasualWars2 was the game branded as being “no grind” and “the game you can play with a job/career/human needs.”.

I think I might just switch mains to a light or heavy character, because they take ~a third less Damask to make their armour sets, so that might be a bit closer to the realm of reality.

You can do all that … you’re proof of it. Ironically, you seem to associate getting BiS gear with being a casual player. Does that make sense to you understanding how the stats progression works and the costs?

Argon.1563:

Obtena.7952:

Other people that sleep, eat food, etc… have more ascended armor than you. If there is a break in logic here, it’s showing.

If you say so, dear. Last time I checked, CasualWars2 was the game branded as being “no grind” and “the game you can play with a job/career/human needs.”.

I think I might just switch mains to a light or heavy character, because they take ~a third less Damask to make their armour sets, so that might be a bit closer to the realm of reality.

this post right here highlights a problem with uneven vertical progression.
I dont think its arenanets intent that you switch characters in order to progress.
Leveling a charachter to 80, and leveling leatherworker to 500 is actually less work for many players than spending an extra 100 gold, and 10 days.

Argon.1563:

Obtena.7952:

Other people that sleep, eat food, etc… have more ascended armor than you. If there is a break in logic here, it’s showing.

If you say so, dear. Last time I checked, CasualWars2 was the game branded as being “no grind” and “the game you can play with a job/career/human needs.”.

I think I might just switch mains to a light or heavy character, because they take ~a third less Damask to make their armour sets, so that might be a bit closer to the realm of reality.

and the wheels on the bus go round again to “You don’t need Damask or ascended armor to play any of the content” Since this statement is true, the “no grind” and “the game you can play with a job/career/human needs.” remain true. Just because someone feels Entitled to BIS armor doesn’t mean they need or deserve it.

Wanze.8410:

while someone who plays all the light classes only has to craft one and can share it between his alts?

For ascended gear…

elementalist: berserker armour with scholar runes, berserker trinkets
necromancer: assassin’s armour with scholar runes, berserker trinkets
mesmer: assassin’s armour with ranger runes and minipet, 2 assassin’s and 3 berserker trinkets (or 3 more exotic assassin’s trinkets if you don’t need agony resistance)

phys.7689:

Argon.1563:

Obtena.7952:

Other people that sleep, eat food, etc… have more ascended armor than you. If there is a break in logic here, it’s showing.

If you say so, dear. Last time I checked, CasualWars2 was the game branded as being “no grind” and “the game you can play with a job/career/human needs.”.

I think I might just switch mains to a light or heavy character, because they take ~a third less Damask to make their armour sets, so that might be a bit closer to the realm of reality.

this post right here highlights a problem with uneven vertical progression.
I dont think its arenanets intent that you switch characters in order to progress.
Leveling a charachter to 80, and leveling leatherworker to 500 is actually less work for many players than spending an extra 100 gold, and 10 days.

Except that it’s highlighting the fact that the progression is uneven in a way to discourage people that don’t need it. If anything that’s a big flashing red light warning that if you don’t NEED ascended armor, you should really think hard about committing to making it. Anet is not at fault if players can’t ‘take a hint’.

Anyways, that’s not the point of this thread. It’s some other 20 page thread out there that people got bored of.

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Argon.1563:

Obtena.7952:

Other people that sleep, eat food, etc… have more ascended armor than you. If there is a break in logic here, it’s showing.

If you say so, dear. Last time I checked, CasualWars2 was the game branded as being “no grind” and “the game you can play with a job/career/human needs.”.

I think I might just switch mains to a light or heavy character, because they take ~a third less Damask to make their armour sets, so that might be a bit closer to the realm of reality.

this post right here highlights a problem with uneven vertical progression.
I dont think its arenanets intent that you switch characters in order to progress.
Leveling a charachter to 80, and leveling leatherworker to 500 is actually less work for many players than spending an extra 100 gold, and 10 days.

Except that it’s highlighting the fact that the progression is uneven in a way to discourage people that don’t need it. If anything that’s a big flashing red light warning that if you don’t NEED ascended armor, you should really think hard about committing to making it. Anet is not at fault if players can’t ‘take a hint’.

Anyways, that’s not the point of this thread. It’s some other 20 page thread out there that people got bored of.

are you saying that cloth users need it less than leather/metal users, and thats why they designed the price to discourage cloth users?

i sincerely doubt that

eithinan.9841:

Argon.1563:

Obtena.7952:

Other people that sleep, eat food, etc… have more ascended armor than you. If there is a break in logic here, it’s showing.

If you say so, dear. Last time I checked, CasualWars2 was the game branded as being “no grind” and “the game you can play with a job/career/human needs.”.

I think I might just switch mains to a light or heavy character, because they take ~a third less Damask to make their armour sets, so that might be a bit closer to the realm of reality.

and the wheels on the bus go round again to “You don’t need Damask or ascended armor to play any of the content” Since this statement is true, the “no grind” and “the game you can play with a job/career/human needs.” remain true. Just because someone feels Entitled to BIS armor doesn’t mean they need or deserve it.

why does heavy/medium need or deserve it more. Why are they more entitled to it than cloth users?

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Argon.1563:

Obtena.7952:

Other people that sleep, eat food, etc… have more ascended armor than you. If there is a break in logic here, it’s showing.

If you say so, dear. Last time I checked, CasualWars2 was the game branded as being “no grind” and “the game you can play with a job/career/human needs.”.

I think I might just switch mains to a light or heavy character, because they take ~a third less Damask to make their armour sets, so that might be a bit closer to the realm of reality.

this post right here highlights a problem with uneven vertical progression.
I dont think its arenanets intent that you switch characters in order to progress.
Leveling a charachter to 80, and leveling leatherworker to 500 is actually less work for many players than spending an extra 100 gold, and 10 days.

Except that it’s highlighting the fact that the progression is uneven in a way to discourage people that don’t need it. If anything that’s a big flashing red light warning that if you don’t NEED ascended armor, you should really think hard about committing to making it. Anet is not at fault if players can’t ‘take a hint’.

Anyways, that’s not the point of this thread. It’s some other 20 page thread out there that people got bored of.

are you saying that cloth users need it less than leather/metal users, and thats why they designed the price to discourage cloth users?

i sincerely doubt that

Nope, that’s not what I said. The need is based on the individual. The disparity between cloth vs. the rest is a different discussion than who needs ascended armor. I was challenging the poster on his choice to make Ascended armor, given that after two years, he still didn’t have the resource to craft it. Ultimately, that leads to the question of how much weight his experience carries in a discussion about anything to do with ascended armor.

To be frank, the more of a casual player a person is, the more they suffer from ‘real life syndrome’. If that applies to someone commenting on how hard it is to to achieve the highest levels of any accomplishment ingame, that context is very important, especially when it comes to BiS gear.

My first thought was “Jeez, the guy played 2 years, is drowning in silk and can’t fund ascended armor assuming he’s accumulated other mats worth something on the market at approximately the same amounts he could sell?” Something isn’t right there …

Of course you just jumped on his experience as the shining example of what’s wrong with the game without thinking that people have ascended armor that are casual as well that probably didn’t start with thousands of silk …

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Argon.1563:

Obtena.7952:

Other people that sleep, eat food, etc… have more ascended armor than you. If there is a break in logic here, it’s showing.

If you say so, dear. Last time I checked, CasualWars2 was the game branded as being “no grind” and “the game you can play with a job/career/human needs.”.

I think I might just switch mains to a light or heavy character, because they take ~a third less Damask to make their armour sets, so that might be a bit closer to the realm of reality.

this post right here highlights a problem with uneven vertical progression.
I dont think its arenanets intent that you switch characters in order to progress.
Leveling a charachter to 80, and leveling leatherworker to 500 is actually less work for many players than spending an extra 100 gold, and 10 days.

Except that it’s highlighting the fact that the progression is uneven in a way to discourage people that don’t need it. If anything that’s a big flashing red light warning that if you don’t NEED ascended armor, you should really think hard about committing to making it. Anet is not at fault if players can’t ‘take a hint’.

Anyways, that’s not the point of this thread. It’s some other 20 page thread out there that people got bored of.

are you saying that cloth users need it less than leather/metal users, and thats why they designed the price to discourage cloth users?

i sincerely doubt that

Nope, that’s not what I said. The need is based on the individual. The disparity between cloth vs. the rest is a different discussion than who needs ascended armor. I was challenging the poster on his choice to make Ascended armor, given that after two years, he still didn’t have the resource to craft it. Ultimately, that leads to the question of how much weight his experience carries in a discussion about anything to do with ascended armor.

To be frank, the more of a casual player a person is, the more they suffer from ‘real life syndrome’. If that applies to someone commenting on how hard it is to to achieve the highest levels of any accomplishment ingame, that context is very important, especially when it comes to BiS gear.

My first thought was “Jeez, the guy played 2 years, is drowning in silk and can’t fund ascended armor assuming he’s accumulated other mats worth something on the market at approximately the same amounts he could sell?” Something isn’t right there …

Of course you just jumped on his experience as the shining example of what’s wrong with the game without thinking that people have ascended armor that are casual as well that probably didn’t start with thousands of silk …

yeah but his point was why does he need so much silk specifically, then he mentions he may just level a different class.
its not just the ascended grind but the silk grind that he was talking about.

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Argon.1563:

Obtena.7952:

Other people that sleep, eat food, etc… have more ascended armor than you. If there is a break in logic here, it’s showing.

If you say so, dear. Last time I checked, CasualWars2 was the game branded as being “no grind” and “the game you can play with a job/career/human needs.”.

I think I might just switch mains to a light or heavy character, because they take ~a third less Damask to make their armour sets, so that might be a bit closer to the realm of reality.

this post right here highlights a problem with uneven vertical progression.
I dont think its arenanets intent that you switch characters in order to progress.
Leveling a charachter to 80, and leveling leatherworker to 500 is actually less work for many players than spending an extra 100 gold, and 10 days.

Except that it’s highlighting the fact that the progression is uneven in a way to discourage people that don’t need it. If anything that’s a big flashing red light warning that if you don’t NEED ascended armor, you should really think hard about committing to making it. Anet is not at fault if players can’t ‘take a hint’.

Anyways, that’s not the point of this thread. It’s some other 20 page thread out there that people got bored of.

I sincerely hope you are joking.

You are Entitled to your opinion, I disagree with it. I think the prices should not be so constrained and that the prices should be based on supply/demand principles.

Then maybe you shouldn’t be playing a game in which supply and demand does not exist except at the whims of the developers. The argue “let supply and demand handle it” is simply nonsensical in this context. You’re certainly free to disagree as to what the resulting prices should be, but don’t try to frame it as some sort of principled stand in the name of the free market, because the free market has never existed here.

Your 0.5→2s progression is not possible without an enormous amount of micro managing.

The markets are mostly stable over time. They would only need minor corrections here and there. And of course there would be swings, a T4 might be more expensive than a T5 for a few weeks here and there, but the target price, the natural balance point that it returns to should be along that straight curve, not a rollercoaster.

It is also impossible with the economics of material promotion where you get about 1/3 of T+1 mats from the previous. the promotion recipes cost 250 t? mats and on average you receive 80ish T?+1.

I could not care even slightly less about material promotion, but if ANet views it as a problem, they can just adjust the recipes accordingly to provide/require more/less mats. It’s not rocket surgery.

maybe i misread but i thought you said they should all be around the price of leather.

“But again, my preference would be to lower the cost of all of them to at most the cost of Leather, if not lower.”

Yes, you misread me, as I explained in the block you quoted, but apparently did not read, above those comments.

I agree with Ohoni.6057 on costs. I don’t have much money, and would like to buy cloths for cheap. Everything in this game should be made cheap, so new players can afford the same things as high level players.

It’s not even about new or old players, there are plenty of established, long-time level 80 players that do not have enough to fully gear their character, much less alts. But yeah, new players would certainly benefit.

TL;DR
Did I mention that changing the insignia recipes will solve the problem and at the same time keep the difficulty?
Also plots from simulation, because graphics are nice.
Also cloth gathering nodes.

The problem is not difficulty
The problems is not the individual prices of any material
The problem is the disproportional prices of ascended armors in relation to eachother caused by game mechanics
I’m all ok with Ascended armor being expensive and hard to get and it being a hardcore task or whatnot.
But I’m not ok with Ascended armor being more expensive and harder to get for light armor people compared to medium and heavy armor people because of nothing other than game mechanics. If it was a demand created by a high number of light armor users, then that’s all fine. But it’s not. It’s a demand created solely by the fact that light armor requires almost only damask and creating any armor at all requires more damask than anything else. See earlier post: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Why-is-silk-going-up-in-price/4852182

Simply changing insignia recipes to require the base material of that crafting discipline instead of damask changes that, keeps the required materials per ascended material, keeps the number of ascended materials needed but balances out the cost of the different armors in the long run so that they are equal in price.

Currently the system is partially uncontrolled, there is no choice that can be made that affects the demand ratio between the materials. Damask will always be highest in demand.
There also is no choice that can be made that affects the supply ratio between the materials in a way that’s positive for cloth since cloth cannot actively be gathered.
As such, the system will continue to go out of whack as it is now.

Introducing the choice for insignias introduce what you, in systems control, call a feedback loop where a controller, the crafter, can make a choice based on some variables in the system, the price on the materials, and thus affect the demand of the different materials directly. The demand in turn affects the price. The choice will also affect the demand ratio positively for Damask since for all armors, you can choose to spend 18 non-damask materials and thus have less Damask than anything else in your armor set. Since the player can be assumed to go for the path of minimal resistance, he will go for what is cheapest and create a demand for that in favor of creating a demand for what’s expensive.
This means that regardless of supply, the materials will always be balanced in price and demand after they have initially settled with time. The prices may still go up and down, but they will do so uniformly.

Introducing gathering nodes for cloth will affect the supply side of the system and introduces a controller for the supply since the players can then make a choice that affects the supply of cloth, namely to go after the nodes and farm it. Depending on the price, more or less people will do so, which will affect the supply.
Not introducing choices for the crafting will however mean that the demand will keep trying to push damask out of whack, but there’s at least a chance that the supply may be able to do something about it. There is however not a guarantee that this will keep it balanced, it depends on how much each player is able to supply and how much they are willing to supply, while insignia material choices will always keep it balanced in the long run.

Attachments:
The plots are the result of a simulation that generated 1000 players of a random class, uniformly distributed.
The simulation doesn’t consider supply, only demand. It’s supposed to show how the demand changes depending on if the system includes a choice or not.
Demand is used instead of price, since there is no supply in the system and a price can’t be emulated. Demand will suffice for the experiment since it’s only meant to show the impact of a self-controlled system. In reality, the price would be the variable that would be used and that would create a demand which, together with supply, would create a price. However lowering the demand will always lower the price when supply is unchanged and because of that, the simulation still works.
The same list of players are used for both instances.
Players craft their own armor weight.
The initial demand values are set subjectively in order to simulate the current demand of the different materials.
The scale is not realistic, but it doesn’t matter since the point of the simulation is to show the impact of the choice.
In the first instance, the player is not given a choice but must craft the insignias with the current recipes.
In the second instance, the player will always choose to create insignias of the material that is lowest in demand.
The txt file is the MATLAB script file that produces the result of the simulation, for verification purposes.

Ohoni.6057:

[Snip]

I could not care even slightly less about material promotion, but if ANet views it as a problem, they can just adjust the recipes accordingly to provide/require more/less mats. It’s not rocket surgery.

[Snip]

Everything I [Snipped] leads down the path of Anet having to micromanage just about everything to satisfy(impossible) your desire for price control and what YOU feel is the proper price.

As to what I left. Whether you care about it or not, material promotion is a system in place in the game that has influence on the cost of materials. This is just another example from you that shows, no matter how many words you type, how narrow your understanding is. And of course, your solution to any foreseeable/unforeseeable issue with material promotion is more micromanagement.