Guild Wars 2

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Again, Ascended gear isn’t a grind as per Anet’s standards.

By Anet’s standards, any activity which involves repeatedly killing the same creatures is a grind. By those standards, Silverwastes is a grind. Champion trains are a grind. Speed clearing dungeons is a grind. Collecting champ bags is a grind. Participating in those grinds is the only way to collect silk fast enough to keep up with the time gating. That’s why my claim is valid. Your claim that I can just do whatever I want and find myself with the silk I need is completely ignorant. Maybe back in your day five stacks of silk could be considered “drowning in silk.” Now they aren’t even enough to make one piece of ascended gear.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

It’s a long term goal that wasn’t meant to be achieved in a day.

When did I ever ask for it to be achieved in a day? I’m going on 10 months here. I’m just saying that maybe we could cut the requirements for a bolt of damask down from 300 silk to the original 200 silk. I never asked for the gating on damask to be removed.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I’m not here to say that you don’t think it’s a grind, only to inform you that your definition is your own. You choose to want items faster, thus in your mind, it becomes a grind for yourself only.

And I’m saying that you’re delusional if you think that any player is going to get the silk they need without grinding. That’s not just in my mind. That’s personal experience.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Want it the old fashioned way? Play the game.

The old fashioned way was that I played through the entire story, completing every mission (including bonus objectives) along the way. When I reached Granite Citadel I dumped a good portion of the mats and gold I had acquired along the way into the best set of armor available in the game (stat-wise), and I was done. The old fashioned way isn’t available any more. I still play the game. I get my daily completionist achievement almost every day. The difference is that I’m going on 10 months with only 3/6 pieces of ascended armor. The weapon I have came out of a weapons chest that I lucked into during guild missions. This is a far cry from the old fashioned way.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Lastly, getting 1,200 Silk scraps is fun. How so? You see, before Ascended gear came out, I was drowning in Silk from just playing the game. If you didn’t sell them, you had a good supply to make Silk Bolts.

Of course it’s fun for you. You collected a completely worthless material and overnight it became a cash cow for you. That’s not so fun for the new players that are essentially funneling all their earnings into your bank account now.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

There’s no required timeframe in which to get fully geared. If it takes him 5 years of casual gaming to get enough Silk scraps, that’s ok. We all play at our own pace. But there are ways to speed up the process.

And I think that’s where you deviate from the norm. What game requires five years to gear up? Even WoW, one of the grindiest games there is (by reputation), lets you achieve BiS in six months at any given time. Your expectation that casuals are content to wait five years for their gear is competely out of touch with reality.

Ohoni.6057:

You can get silk by playing any content in the game that has the level range of silk. Mileage may vary but the silk requirements for ascended gear don’t force you to play specific content. If you complete the same content over and over again to get silk because you think its the fastest way, thats your choice, not a requirement.

Pointless semantics.

Pointless statement as there is nothing semantic about it.
For all I know, you said the first part yourself, as you didnt provide a quote-link.

Bernie.8674:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

There’s no required timeframe in which to get fully geared. If it takes him 5 years of casual gaming to get enough Silk scraps, that’s ok. We all play at our own pace. But there are ways to speed up the process.

And I think that’s where you deviate from the norm. What game requires five years to gear up? Even WoW, one of the grindiest games there is (by reputation), lets you achieve BiS in six months at any given time. Your expectation that casuals are content to wait five years for their gear is competely out of touch with reality.

Casual players that need 5 years to acquire ascended gear usually dont want to have ascended gear in the first place.

Bernie.8674:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Again, Ascended gear isn’t a grind as per Anet’s standards.

By Anet’s standards, any activity which involves repeatedly killing the same creatures is a grind. By those standards, Silverwastes is a grind. Champion trains are a grind. Speed clearing dungeons is a grind. Collecting champ bags is a grind. Participating in those grinds is the only way to collect silk fast enough to keep up with the time gating. That’s why my claim is valid. Your claim that I can just do whatever I want and find myself with the silk I need is completely ignorant. Maybe back in your day five stacks of silk could be considered “drowning in silk.” Now they aren’t even enough to make one piece of ascended gear.

You keep falling into the same problem. Your definition of a grind is not what Anet considers a grind. Silverwaste farming is a grind, IF you choose to make it one. You aren’t required to farm 10 hours of SW and Vinewrath kills to finish the storyline. You aren’t required to Bandit chest farm. You aren’t required to train Champs or World Bosses. YOU made the conscious decision to do so. This type of “grind” is player made.

For full disclosure, I do all of the above. I made that choice, and I do see it as a grind, but it’s my own. When I get tired of it, I stop. It has no effect on how I view this game. Anet gave me the option to play this way, and I chose to do so.

So again, is there a grind being forced on you to complete your Personal Story, or Living World arcs? The answer is no. Anet kept their word since the days of the Manifesto.

Wanze.8410:

Casual players that need 5 years to acquire ascended gear usually dont want to have ascended gear in the first place.

You keep saying that, but whether they “need” it or not has nothing to do with this. ArenaNet excplicitly stated that BiS gear should be available to everyone without a grind. Why do you keep bringing that up when it has nothing to do with this thread?

Bernie.8674:

Wanze.8410:

Casual players that need 5 years to acquire ascended gear usually dont want to have ascended gear in the first place.

You keep saying that, but whether they “need” it or not has nothing to do with this. ArenaNet excplicitly stated that BiS gear should be available to everyone without a grind. Why do you keep bringing that up when it has nothing to do with this thread?

I said that a player who needs 5 years to acquire ascended gear usually doesnt want it, not that they dont need it.

If someone logs in for 5 years every day for 30 min to do some rp or level an alt, ascended gear is probably not their main goal, thats why it takes so long for them to acquire.

Yet you keep on saying ascended gear is a grind for them (which, by Anets definition means that they would have to kill the same enemies over and over again).
I dont know why you keep bringing your own definition of grind into this instead of arguing within the context Colin provided.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Bernie.8674:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Again, Ascended gear isn’t a grind as per Anet’s standards.

By Anet’s standards, any activity which involves repeatedly killing the same creatures is a grind. By those standards, Silverwastes is a grind. Champion trains are a grind. Speed clearing dungeons is a grind. Collecting champ bags is a grind. Participating in those grinds is the only way to collect silk fast enough to keep up with the time gating. That’s why my claim is valid. Your claim that I can just do whatever I want and find myself with the silk I need is completely ignorant. Maybe back in your day five stacks of silk could be considered “drowning in silk.” Now they aren’t even enough to make one piece of ascended gear.

You keep falling into the same problem. Your definition of a grind is not what Anet considers a grind. Silverwaste farming is a grind, IF you choose to make it one.

Your reasoning makes no sense. ArenaNet’s definition of grind is killing the same monsters over and over repeatedly. Your claim is that since you don’t have to kill anything over and over repeatedly then killing stuff over and over repeatedly isn’t a grind. By your definition, nothing is a grind. That’s like saying that murder isn’t murder because murderers don’t have to kill someone; they choose to. That makes no sense. Silverwastes involves repeatedly killing champions for bags and/or farming for chests in the same zone for hours on end. That’s a grind. Claiming that grinding isn’t grinding because players choose to grind doesn’t make it stop being a grind.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

You aren’t required to farm 10 hours of SW and Vinewrath kills to finish the storyline.

I agree, but what does that have to do with anything? I finished my storyline. Was I supposed to be rewarded with 7000 silk scraps at the end? If so I’ll file a bug report because I’m still a long ways from getting the silk I need.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

You aren’t required to Bandit chest farm. You aren’t required to train Champs or World Bosses. YOU made the conscious decision to do so. This type of “grind” is player made.

I didn’t make a decision to grind, and that’s why I’ve been playing for 10 months with only half a set of ascended gear. What I’m saying is that players I know who make the decision to grind get their gear in under a month. If we were talking about legendary items or unique weapon skins I would be perfectly fine with that. I’m saying that the disparity is unreasonable and you’re trying to convince me otherwise by pointing out that I have the choice to grind or not. The truth is that if I want to participate in high end content with my guild sometime in the next year I’m going to have to make the choice to grind. This is in conflict with ArenaNet’s purported “no-grind” philosophy. Whether players choose to grind or not grind doesn’t affect whether there’s a grind.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

For full disclosure, I do all of the above. I made that choice, and I do see it as a grind, but it’s my own. When I get tired of it, I stop. It has no effect on how I view this game. Anet gave me the option to play this way, and I chose to do so.

So of course you have a vested interest in perpetuating the system. Your preferred playstyle rewards players in a disproportionate manner, so of course you’re happy about it.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

So again, is there a grind being forced on you to complete your Personal Story, or Living World arcs? The answer is no. Anet kept their word since the days of the Manifesto.

This thread is about the price of silk. What does personal story or living world have to do with it? ArenaNet’s word in the manifesto was that you wouldn’t be grinding for BiS gear and that you wouldn’t be waiting to have fun. The reality is that you either have to grind for BiS gear or wait to have fun. Either choice is in conflict with ArenaNet’s word.

Wanze.8410:

I said that a player who needs 5 years to acquire ascended gear usually doesnt want it, not that they dont need it.

Again, what does that have to do with anything? Does it change the fact that ArenaNet’s manifesto explicitly stated that we wouldn’t have to grind for BiS gear?

Wanze.8410:

I dont know why you keep bringing your own definition of grind into this instead of arguing within the context Colin provided.

My definition of grind is participating in activities that involve killing the same creatures repeatedly for hours on end. That’s exactly the context that Collin provided. Where am I bringing a different definition into it?

Bernie.8674:

ArenaNet’s definition of grind is killing the same monsters over and over repeatedly.

ArenaNet’s definition of grind is having to do one specific task over and over again in order to get something.

Because the game is designed to allow you to do just about any task whatsoever and get the same items as a reward, there is no “grind”.

You can PvP for silk. You can PvE for silk. You can dungeon for silk. You can WvW for silk. You can TP for silk. You get silk for playing the game the way you want to play it, therefore you are not grinding.

Bernie.8674:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

So again, is there a grind being forced on you to complete your Personal Story, or Living World arcs? The answer is no. Anet kept their word since the days of the Manifesto.

This thread is about the price of silk. What does personal story or living world have to do with it? ArenaNet’s word in the manifesto was that you wouldn’t be grinding for BiS gear and that you wouldn’t be waiting to have fun. The reality is that you either have to grind for BiS gear or wait to have fun. Either choice is in conflict with ArenaNet’s word.

It’s connected. Price of Silk is due to Supply and Demand. Players who Demand it are also the ones who feel this game is a “grind”, because they “need” to have Ascended gear.

Again, you keep mixing your own definition of what a grind is, and what Anet sees as a grind. You aren’t required to kill the same thing over and over to advance the game and/or have fun. Anet doesn’t require a grind. But that doesn’t mean they eliminated the choice for players to “grind” on their own.

Not sure how else to explain it to you. It’s like going to a doctor, and him forcing you to eat three apples a day, everyday, for a year or you die. That’s a grind. But if the doctor just recommends eating three apples a day, everyday, for a year, you can make the choice to do so or not. It makes you healthier, but it won’t kill you to skip a day here and there.

Bernie.8674:

My definition of grind is participating in activities that involve killing the same creatures repeatedly for hours on end.

Ok, but where does Anet force you to do so? Show me where in the User Agreement that states in order to advance the game’s story, you need to spend hours in SW farming mobs.

mtpelion.4562:

Bernie.8674:

ArenaNet’s definition of grind is killing the same monsters over and over repeatedly.

ArenaNet’s definition of grind is having to do one specific task over and over again in order to get something.

I’ll let Colin Johanson clarify this for me:

ColinJohanson.2394:

- Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again. In particular, the biggest reference we’re talking about here in traditional MMO’s is having to kill the same creatures over and over again to farm for levels or gear. In Gw2, you can gain exp and levels from a massive variety of game play, game modes, and content types. Same goes for the ability to acquire the gear to build up your characters. Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals. Our new mastery system continues to this promise as well, which we’ll go into more detail on soon.

Just like I said, “having to kill the same creatures over and over again.”

mtpelion.4562:

Bernie.8674:

ArenaNet’s definition of grind is killing the same monsters over and over repeatedly.

ArenaNet’s definition of grind is having to do one specific task over and over again in order to get something.

Because the game is designed to allow you to do just about any task whatsoever and get the same items as a reward, there is no “grind”.

This maybe true for when trying to get gear & items. However it does not hold true to leveling. While its not exactly the same thing over and over. It is still doing the same stuff. Running around killing mobs, completing hearts, getting waypoints, vistas, and points of interest in a type of repetitive scenario. Yes you can PVP as well for Tomes of Knowledge, but thats just another path of repeating the same stuff over and over.

Honestly when I hear “grind” I think of the long time its going to take to get to max level. I don’t think about how long its going to take to farm for certain items.

mtpelion.4562:

You can PvP for silk. You can PvE for silk. You can dungeon for silk. You can WvW for silk. You can TP for silk. You get silk for playing the game the way you want to play it, therefore you are not grinding.

Agreed. I have no problems with the fact that silk is required. I have problems with the quantity of silk that’s required. How quickly are you going to collect the 7200 silk scraps required to make a full set of leather armor in PvP?

Vegeta.2563:

mtpelion.4562:

Bernie.8674:

ArenaNet’s definition of grind is killing the same monsters over and over repeatedly.

ArenaNet’s definition of grind is having to do one specific task over and over again in order to get something.

Because the game is designed to allow you to do just about any task whatsoever and get the same items as a reward, there is no “grind”.

This maybe true for when trying to get gear & items. However it does not hold true to leveling. While its not exactly the same thing over and over. It is still doing the same stuff. Running around killing mobs, completing hearts, getting waypoints, vistas, and points of interest in a type of repetitive scenario. Yes you can PVP as well for Tomes of Knowledge, but thats just another path of repeating the same stuff over and over.

Honestly when I hear “grind” I think of the long time its going to take to get to max level. I don’t think about how long its going to take to farm for certain items.

Hmm interesting.

I don’t think that there is even a way possible to be able to level up without having to do some similiar things repetively. For example, While killing mobs, doing events, and doing hearts, are generally the same type of play, you are not stuck in Queensdale until level 15 killing bandits and saving the same farm from being taken over by the bandits, over and over until you level up.

Is there a way to be able to level without killing mobs, doing events/hearts, PvP, exploration, etc. without having some of it be similar in nature? If so I certainly would love to see a system like that.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Again, you keep mixing your own definition of what a grind is, and what Anet sees as a grind. You aren’t required to kill the same thing over and over to advance the game and/or have fun.

For Pete’s sake! When did I ever say I had to grind to advance the game??? I said that you’re required to grind to collect enough silk scraps to complete a set of ascended armor in under a year!

I know you can collect some silk without grinding. I know I can stick to low level fractals without grinding. I’m saying that if I want to participate in high end content with my guildies any time in the next six months I’m going to have to grind to collect enough silk.

I know I’ll get some silk without grinding, but it won’t be enough silk. The fact that grinding is so rewarding has inflated prices on the TP beyond the reach of most non-grinders. In most cases, I don’t care because I tend to gather what I need along the way. Silk, however, is not readily available through the course of normal play. Unless, that is, your course of normal play is grinding.

I don’t grind. That’s why I only have 48 gold and no silk scraps. I’m at 3/6 ascended pieces. At current prices I can dump every last cent that I have into silk. That’ll complete one more piece for me and half of another.

To be clear, I have Mawdrey. I have all ascended rings and the amulet. My story line is complete. I have 100% map completion (WvW maps included). I’m not complaining about any of those things. I know I don’t need ascended armor to get any of them.

Here’s my complaint: I do not have silk. That’s what this thread is supposed to be about. It’s not about whether or not I need BiS armor. It’s not about whether the story line can be completed. It’s about the fact that ArenaNet’s manifesto made the claim that BiS armor shouldn’t be a grind. It’s about the fact that Colin reiterated that claim last month. It’s about the fact that the sheer quantity of silk required to craft ascended gear in conjunction with the low availability of silk through normal play has made grinding the only viable means of crafting ascended gear in a timely (< 6 months) manner.

Contrary to what’s been stated, I don’t expect a full set of ascended armor in a day. I don’t even expect it in a week. Getting it within six weeks of hitting level 80 would be reasonable in my mind. Having to gather silk for a year and a half, however, isn’t so reasonable. When the choice is between having to wait that long and having to grind, one of these promises is being broken:

ColinJohanson.2394:

- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)

GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs… it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun;

The second quote comes from the manifesto

I know that some will contend that grinding is fun. I respectfully disagree.

/sigh

Let me post a quote from Colin:

ColinJohanson.2394:

- Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again.

You aren’t required to farm for Silk. You aren’t required to craft Ascended gear. You aren’t required to WvW. You aren’t required to PvP.

The only thing the game requires you to do, in terms of story, is complete the prerequisite minimums before the next storyline is unlocked (i.e. Be level 10 for this, level 20 for that). THAT is the only thing Anet requires in this game. Everything else in the game is provided to you, and you make the choice to play them. Heck, Anet wants you to play them. However, if you don’t, it’s ok. Find your own fun.

So you need 1,700 Silk? Ok, your choice to need that. Play the game and gather the materials from drop salvages, or buy them on the TP. Grind to your heart’s content. Anet lets you play this game how you want to play. But because you decided to grind for these items, you can’t complain about it.

Edit – Reposting my doctor analogy: It’s like going to a doctor, and him forcing you to eat three apples a day, everyday, for a year or you die. That’s a grind. But if the doctor just recommends eating three apples a day, everyday, for a year, you can make the choice to do so or not. It makes you healthier, but it won’t kill you to skip a day here and there.

Bernie.8674:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

There’s no required timeframe in which to get fully geared. If it takes him 5 years of casual gaming to get enough Silk scraps, that’s ok. We all play at our own pace. But there are ways to speed up the process.

And I think that’s where you deviate from the norm. What game requires five years to gear up?

This game does not try to appeal to what is the norm and this game does not require you to gear up in full ascended, even if you want to do level 50 fractals. You’re premise is fail.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

You aren’t required to farm for Silk. You aren’t required to craft Ascended gear. You aren’t required to WvW. You aren’t required to PvP.

You are required if you want your gear anytime in the next year or so. What part of that don’t you understand? This is despite the fact that ArenaNet explicitly stated that you won’t be required to grind if you want your gear. What good will ascended gear do me a year from now? Most of my guild mates have quit playing because there’s nothing left for them to do except grind. They call this game Grind Wars. Mike O’Brien promised that there won’t be another tier of armor in HoT, but he didn’t rule out upgrades to existing armor. Why would I want to upgrade my exotic gear?

You know what? I’m not required to do any of that. I’m not required to play this game anymore or buy the expansion either. Ultimately that’s what ArenaNet should be thinking about. This game was marketed as being grind-free, but the current state of affairs suggests otherwise. Maybe my perception would have been different if I had levelled all my crafting when silk was going for a few coppers, but I happened to level it when silk was going for 2+ silver. When a material costs 20 times as much it’s going to take 20 times as long to purchase. That forces players to choose between grinding or spending 20 times as long as the intended amount of time to craft their gear. Either way, that’s completely contrary to the claims made in ArenaNet’s promo materials.

Bernie.8674:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

You aren’t required to farm for Silk. You aren’t required to craft Ascended gear. You aren’t required to WvW. You aren’t required to PvP.

You are required if you want your gear anytime in the next year or so. What part of that don’t you understand?

That’s just entitlement talking. That’s a self-imposed requirement to justify why you should have it on your time scale… not a relevant argument for Anet making a global change to the game.

Obtena.7952:

Bernie.8674:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

You aren’t required to farm for Silk. You aren’t required to craft Ascended gear. You aren’t required to WvW. You aren’t required to PvP.

You are required if you want your gear anytime in the next year or so. What part of that don’t you understand?

That’s just entitlement talking. That’s a self-imposed requirement to justify why you should have it on your time scale… not a relevant argument for Anet making a global change to the game.

Yeah… that’s just entitlement. 10 months playing several hours a night, 100% map completion, crafting maxed, Mawdrey obtained, and still only 3/6 pieces of ascended armor. What am I thinking? Obviously if you want something in the real game you have to work for it. Think about what you’re saying.

I did think about what I’m saying. It is not a requirement to have a piece of gear, just because you want it. That’s a nonsense statement. It’s also nonsense to imply you are OWED a peice of gear because you decide you have spend enough time playing to believe your earned it. Why I say that’s entitlement? Because those factors you list are not the requirements to make the gear you are after. No one cares if you spends hours a night ingame and own a Mawdrey. Those things are not required for making ascended armor. Yeah… that is just entitlement.

Bernie.8674:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

You aren’t required to farm for Silk. You aren’t required to craft Ascended gear. You aren’t required to WvW. You aren’t required to PvP.

You are required if you want your gear anytime in the next year or so. What part of that don’t you understand?

Where does it say that Anet is requiring you to do anything of the sort? What it all comes down to is you’re trying to push your own personal needs and desires onto the rest of the player base, and making the argument that “grind” is being required. So I challenge you to prove you actually need to get Silk. Prove you need to have Ascended gear.

I repeat myself – I don’t doubt that you feel that what you’re doing is grinding for gear. But I will keep reminding you that you’re misplacing your own needs for what’s actually required in this game. The day that Anet requires all players to be decked out in full Ascended gear is when you’ll be correct in your allegations that Anet didn’t follow their own Manifesto.

Bernie.8674:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

You aren’t required to farm for Silk. You aren’t required to craft Ascended gear. You aren’t required to WvW. You aren’t required to PvP.

You are required if you want your gear anytime in the next year or so. What part of that don’t you understand? This is despite the fact that ArenaNet explicitly stated that you won’t be required to grind if you want your gear. What good will ascended gear do me a year from now? Most of my guild mates have quit playing because there’s nothing left for them to do except grind. They call this game Grind Wars. Mike O’Brien promised that there won’t be another tier of armor in HoT, but he didn’t rule out upgrades to existing armor. Why would I want to upgrade my exotic gear?

You know what? I’m not required to do any of that. I’m not required to play this game anymore or buy the expansion either. Ultimately that’s what ArenaNet should be thinking about. This game was marketed as being grind-free, but the current state of affairs suggests otherwise. Maybe my perception would have been different if I had levelled all my crafting when silk was going for a few coppers, but I happened to level it when silk was going for 2+ silver. When a material costs 20 times as much it’s going to take 20 times as long to purchase. That forces players to choose between grinding or spending 20 times as long as the intended amount of time to craft their gear. Either way, that’s completely contrary to the claims made in ArenaNet’s promo materials.

I just bought a new account during the sale last week. I made a new toon, popped some exp boosters and played for about 2 hours, did the behemoth, some eotm and events until i had 5 gold in my wallet. since then I retired that character to the trading post.

It has been 5 days and i made 185g through trading. That is enough gold to buy 8400 silk scraps and I didnt even have to kill more than a couple of dozen monsters to get my initial investment.

I didnt spend more than 90 minutes on that account each day.

Granted, this avenue might not be suited for everyone but its still there but if the possibility is there, you cant say its required to kill the same creatures over and over again to get enough silk for your ascended gear in under a year.

Wanze.8410:

Bernie.8674:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

You aren’t required to farm for Silk. You aren’t required to craft Ascended gear. You aren’t required to WvW. You aren’t required to PvP.

You are required if you want your gear anytime in the next year or so. What part of that don’t you understand? This is despite the fact that ArenaNet explicitly stated that you won’t be required to grind if you want your gear. What good will ascended gear do me a year from now? Most of my guild mates have quit playing because there’s nothing left for them to do except grind. They call this game Grind Wars. Mike O’Brien promised that there won’t be another tier of armor in HoT, but he didn’t rule out upgrades to existing armor. Why would I want to upgrade my exotic gear?

You know what? I’m not required to do any of that. I’m not required to play this game anymore or buy the expansion either. Ultimately that’s what ArenaNet should be thinking about. This game was marketed as being grind-free, but the current state of affairs suggests otherwise. Maybe my perception would have been different if I had levelled all my crafting when silk was going for a few coppers, but I happened to level it when silk was going for 2+ silver. When a material costs 20 times as much it’s going to take 20 times as long to purchase. That forces players to choose between grinding or spending 20 times as long as the intended amount of time to craft their gear. Either way, that’s completely contrary to the claims made in ArenaNet’s promo materials.

I just bought a new account during the sale last week. I made a new toon, popped some exp boosters and played for about 2 hours, did the behemoth, some eotm and events until i had 5 gold in my wallet. since then I retired that character to the trading post.

It has been 5 days and i made 185g through trading. That is enough gold to buy 8400 silk scraps and I didnt even have to kill more than a couple of dozen monsters to get my initial investment.

I didnt spend more than 90 minutes on that account each day.

Granted, this avenue might not be suited for everyone but its still there but if the possibility is there, you cant say its required to kill the same creatures over and over again to get enough silk for your ascended gear in under a year.

On the topic of grind

Eotm is one of the best farms in the game.
Trading TP is the best earning in the game by far, of you know how to do it.

Point is yeah, grinding one content over and over is the best realistic option for getting gear in a timely fashion.

And that’s why the game is grindy, because the feasible way to achieve bis is to grind, as you showed us.

phys.7689:

On the topic of grind

Eotm is one of the best farms in the game.
Trading TP is the best earning in the game by far, of you know how to do it.

Point is yeah, grinding one content over and over is the best realistic option for getting gear in a timely fashion.

And that’s why the game is grindy, because the feasible way to achieve bis is to grind, as you showed us.

Anet never said there wouldn’t be any grind, ever. They only said that it wouldn’t be required. BiS gear is available for all players to get, if you’re willing to put in the efforts to get them.

Doesn’t take much effort to get Masterwork or Rare gear, if Exotic or Ascended gear is too out of your reach.

You’re not being honest here phys. You CAN grind if you want, but you don’t have to. It’s not a MUST to grind, even if you want BIS gear in a ‘timely’ fashion because what is timely is completely player-defined. I think it’s ‘timely’ to get ascended armor set in one year. I’m on track to that and I do what I want to get it. That’s not grindy to me nor is it grindy according to Anet’s definition. Now, if you choose timely to mean you have to grind and do things you have to repeat that you might not like, that doesn’t mean the game is grindy, it simply means you’ve chosen to make it that way.

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

Bernie.8674:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

You aren’t required to farm for Silk. You aren’t required to craft Ascended gear. You aren’t required to WvW. You aren’t required to PvP.

You are required if you want your gear anytime in the next year or so. What part of that don’t you understand? This is despite the fact that ArenaNet explicitly stated that you won’t be required to grind if you want your gear. What good will ascended gear do me a year from now? Most of my guild mates have quit playing because there’s nothing left for them to do except grind. They call this game Grind Wars. Mike O’Brien promised that there won’t be another tier of armor in HoT, but he didn’t rule out upgrades to existing armor. Why would I want to upgrade my exotic gear?

You know what? I’m not required to do any of that. I’m not required to play this game anymore or buy the expansion either. Ultimately that’s what ArenaNet should be thinking about. This game was marketed as being grind-free, but the current state of affairs suggests otherwise. Maybe my perception would have been different if I had levelled all my crafting when silk was going for a few coppers, but I happened to level it when silk was going for 2+ silver. When a material costs 20 times as much it’s going to take 20 times as long to purchase. That forces players to choose between grinding or spending 20 times as long as the intended amount of time to craft their gear. Either way, that’s completely contrary to the claims made in ArenaNet’s promo materials.

I just bought a new account during the sale last week. I made a new toon, popped some exp boosters and played for about 2 hours, did the behemoth, some eotm and events until i had 5 gold in my wallet. since then I retired that character to the trading post.

It has been 5 days and i made 185g through trading. That is enough gold to buy 8400 silk scraps and I didnt even have to kill more than a couple of dozen monsters to get my initial investment.

I didnt spend more than 90 minutes on that account each day.

Granted, this avenue might not be suited for everyone but its still there but if the possibility is there, you cant say its required to kill the same creatures over and over again to get enough silk for your ascended gear in under a year.

On the topic of grind

Eotm is one of the best farms in the game.
Trading TP is the best earning in the game by far, of you know how to do it.

Point is yeah, grinding one content over and over is the best realistic option for getting gear in a timely fashion.

And that’s why the game is grindy, because the feasible way to achieve bis is to grind, as you showed us.

But i wasnt grinding only one content.

I did personal story, eotm, behemoth and other pve events and traded on the tp and I only played about 8 hours so far, yet you call it a grind. Why?

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

Bernie.8674:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

You aren’t required to farm for Silk. You aren’t required to craft Ascended gear. You aren’t required to WvW. You aren’t required to PvP.

You are required if you want your gear anytime in the next year or so. What part of that don’t you understand? This is despite the fact that ArenaNet explicitly stated that you won’t be required to grind if you want your gear. What good will ascended gear do me a year from now? Most of my guild mates have quit playing because there’s nothing left for them to do except grind. They call this game Grind Wars. Mike O’Brien promised that there won’t be another tier of armor in HoT, but he didn’t rule out upgrades to existing armor. Why would I want to upgrade my exotic gear?

You know what? I’m not required to do any of that. I’m not required to play this game anymore or buy the expansion either. Ultimately that’s what ArenaNet should be thinking about. This game was marketed as being grind-free, but the current state of affairs suggests otherwise. Maybe my perception would have been different if I had levelled all my crafting when silk was going for a few coppers, but I happened to level it when silk was going for 2+ silver. When a material costs 20 times as much it’s going to take 20 times as long to purchase. That forces players to choose between grinding or spending 20 times as long as the intended amount of time to craft their gear. Either way, that’s completely contrary to the claims made in ArenaNet’s promo materials.

I just bought a new account during the sale last week. I made a new toon, popped some exp boosters and played for about 2 hours, did the behemoth, some eotm and events until i had 5 gold in my wallet. since then I retired that character to the trading post.

It has been 5 days and i made 185g through trading. That is enough gold to buy 8400 silk scraps and I didnt even have to kill more than a couple of dozen monsters to get my initial investment.

I didnt spend more than 90 minutes on that account each day.

Granted, this avenue might not be suited for everyone but its still there but if the possibility is there, you cant say its required to kill the same creatures over and over again to get enough silk for your ascended gear in under a year.

On the topic of grind

Eotm is one of the best farms in the game.
Trading TP is the best earning in the game by far, of you know how to do it.

Point is yeah, grinding one content over and over is the best realistic option for getting gear in a timely fashion.

And that’s why the game is grindy, because the feasible way to achieve bis is to grind, as you showed us.

But i wasnt grinding only one content.

I did personal story, eotm, behemoth and other pve events and traded on the tp and I only played about 8 hours so far, yet you call it a grind. Why?

The question is what activities were responsible for what earning.

Bernie.8674:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Again, you keep mixing your own definition of what a grind is, and what Anet sees as a grind. You aren’t required to kill the same thing over and over to advance the game and/or have fun.

For Pete’s sake! When did I ever say I had to grind to advance the game??? I said that you’re required to grind to collect enough silk scraps to complete a set of ascended armor in under a year!

I know you can collect some silk without grinding. I know I can stick to low level fractals without grinding. I’m saying that if I want to participate in high end content with my guildies any time in the next six months I’m going to have to grind to collect enough silk.

I know I’ll get some silk without grinding, but it won’t be enough silk. The fact that grinding is so rewarding has inflated prices on the TP beyond the reach of most non-grinders. In most cases, I don’t care because I tend to gather what I need along the way. Silk, however, is not readily available through the course of normal play. Unless, that is, your course of normal play is grinding.

I don’t grind. That’s why I only have 48 gold and no silk scraps. I’m at 3/6 ascended pieces. At current prices I can dump every last cent that I have into silk. That’ll complete one more piece for me and half of another.

To be clear, I have Mawdrey. I have all ascended rings and the amulet. My story line is complete. I have 100% map completion (WvW maps included). I’m not complaining about any of those things. I know I don’t need ascended armor to get any of them.

Here’s my complaint: I do not have silk. That’s what this thread is supposed to be about. It’s not about whether or not I need BiS armor. It’s not about whether the story line can be completed. It’s about the fact that ArenaNet’s manifesto made the claim that BiS armor shouldn’t be a grind. It’s about the fact that Colin reiterated that claim last month. It’s about the fact that the sheer quantity of silk required to craft ascended gear in conjunction with the low availability of silk through normal play has made grinding the only viable means of crafting ascended gear in a timely (< 6 months) manner.

Contrary to what’s been stated, I don’t expect a full set of ascended armor in a day. I don’t even expect it in a week. Getting it within six weeks of hitting level 80 would be reasonable in my mind. Having to gather silk for a year and a half, however, isn’t so reasonable. When the choice is between having to wait that long and having to grind, one of these promises is being broken:

ColinJohanson.2394:

- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)

GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs… it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun;

The second quote comes from the manifesto

I know that some will contend that grinding is fun. I respectfully disagree.

I know lowering the cost of how much silk is required to make Bolt of Damask isn’t really the answer, but how about getting more silk from salvaging light armor? Instead of 1-3, you would get like 4-6 silk per piece. And depending on what level it is (level 80 giving highest of 6 per) you’d get more silk. This might lower the cost on silk, but still keeping the requirements the same to craft ascended gear.

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

Bernie.8674:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

You aren’t required to farm for Silk. You aren’t required to craft Ascended gear. You aren’t required to WvW. You aren’t required to PvP.

You are required if you want your gear anytime in the next year or so. What part of that don’t you understand? This is despite the fact that ArenaNet explicitly stated that you won’t be required to grind if you want your gear. What good will ascended gear do me a year from now? Most of my guild mates have quit playing because there’s nothing left for them to do except grind. They call this game Grind Wars. Mike O’Brien promised that there won’t be another tier of armor in HoT, but he didn’t rule out upgrades to existing armor. Why would I want to upgrade my exotic gear?

You know what? I’m not required to do any of that. I’m not required to play this game anymore or buy the expansion either. Ultimately that’s what ArenaNet should be thinking about. This game was marketed as being grind-free, but the current state of affairs suggests otherwise. Maybe my perception would have been different if I had levelled all my crafting when silk was going for a few coppers, but I happened to level it when silk was going for 2+ silver. When a material costs 20 times as much it’s going to take 20 times as long to purchase. That forces players to choose between grinding or spending 20 times as long as the intended amount of time to craft their gear. Either way, that’s completely contrary to the claims made in ArenaNet’s promo materials.

I just bought a new account during the sale last week. I made a new toon, popped some exp boosters and played for about 2 hours, did the behemoth, some eotm and events until i had 5 gold in my wallet. since then I retired that character to the trading post.

It has been 5 days and i made 185g through trading. That is enough gold to buy 8400 silk scraps and I didnt even have to kill more than a couple of dozen monsters to get my initial investment.

I didnt spend more than 90 minutes on that account each day.

Granted, this avenue might not be suited for everyone but its still there but if the possibility is there, you cant say its required to kill the same creatures over and over again to get enough silk for your ascended gear in under a year.

On the topic of grind

Eotm is one of the best farms in the game.
Trading TP is the best earning in the game by far, of you know how to do it.

Point is yeah, grinding one content over and over is the best realistic option for getting gear in a timely fashion.

And that’s why the game is grindy, because the feasible way to achieve bis is to grind, as you showed us.

But i wasnt grinding only one content.

I did personal story, eotm, behemoth and other pve events and traded on the tp and I only played about 8 hours so far, yet you call it a grind. Why?

The question is what activities were responsible for what earning.

I know where you’re going with this, and I respectfully ask that you not turn this into a “TP players are evil” thread.

Oh, that Colin-post is up again?

Funny. In these forums it always appears around the time people start spamming the hollow term “entitlement”. Pretty much the only thing that remained from the poop-tornado of that franchise after Mass Effect 3 killed of Space Jesus…erm, Commander Shepard.

So about that hollow term:

No user here is entitled to anything, apart from their own opinion(which usually is something you bring up in a forum) and the legal terms we agreed on to make accounts and play the game.

Neither the users who want a change, nor the users who want it to remain the way it is, have any entitlement to it.

Honestly, I’ve got no problem with the max-stats armor being a grind, or a “long term goal”(A rose by any other name…).
Balance however, is still something that needs to be considered. This is a game. People have a certain tollerance towards economy-based imbalance, but an imbalance that sprouts from uneven crafting-recipes per profession, impacts that tollerance. As we see by those threads popping up every now and then, people notice it and critizice it. Which is their right to do so, as advocating for a change is.

As we’re on that occasion of that Colin-Post flying around:
Upon the idea to raise the amount of Mithril and Hard Leather to create the respective mats for Deldrimor Steel Ingots and Elonian Leather, people who advocate for the current balance brought up that a rise in the demand for Mithril would bring up the prices for the mystic forging of Precursors.
As we’re in the citing-mood:

“This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)”

Mhhh…
Mithril is close to vendor-price. Apart from Precursor-Forging(“optional”) and Mithtrillium it has no real use once people hit 80. As for my experience: Everyone I know has stockpiles of that stuff, it drops like crazy, it’s salvaged from lvl80 heavy armor and pretty much every weapon of that tier and you can get it directly from nodes.
Leather has the same drop-sources as cloth, except that leather has one more salvage-item per tier that the RNG can pop out.
If you keep the requirement of Deldrimor Steel Ingots for weapons in mind, a balance to give every profession the same long term goal isn’t that farfetched.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

Bernie.8674:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

You aren’t required to farm for Silk. You aren’t required to craft Ascended gear. You aren’t required to WvW. You aren’t required to PvP.

You are required if you want your gear anytime in the next year or so. What part of that don’t you understand? This is despite the fact that ArenaNet explicitly stated that you won’t be required to grind if you want your gear. What good will ascended gear do me a year from now? Most of my guild mates have quit playing because there’s nothing left for them to do except grind. They call this game Grind Wars. Mike O’Brien promised that there won’t be another tier of armor in HoT, but he didn’t rule out upgrades to existing armor. Why would I want to upgrade my exotic gear?

You know what? I’m not required to do any of that. I’m not required to play this game anymore or buy the expansion either. Ultimately that’s what ArenaNet should be thinking about. This game was marketed as being grind-free, but the current state of affairs suggests otherwise. Maybe my perception would have been different if I had levelled all my crafting when silk was going for a few coppers, but I happened to level it when silk was going for 2+ silver. When a material costs 20 times as much it’s going to take 20 times as long to purchase. That forces players to choose between grinding or spending 20 times as long as the intended amount of time to craft their gear. Either way, that’s completely contrary to the claims made in ArenaNet’s promo materials.

I just bought a new account during the sale last week. I made a new toon, popped some exp boosters and played for about 2 hours, did the behemoth, some eotm and events until i had 5 gold in my wallet. since then I retired that character to the trading post.

It has been 5 days and i made 185g through trading. That is enough gold to buy 8400 silk scraps and I didnt even have to kill more than a couple of dozen monsters to get my initial investment.

I didnt spend more than 90 minutes on that account each day.

Granted, this avenue might not be suited for everyone but its still there but if the possibility is there, you cant say its required to kill the same creatures over and over again to get enough silk for your ascended gear in under a year.

On the topic of grind

Eotm is one of the best farms in the game.
Trading TP is the best earning in the game by far, of you know how to do it.

Point is yeah, grinding one content over and over is the best realistic option for getting gear in a timely fashion.

And that’s why the game is grindy, because the feasible way to achieve bis is to grind, as you showed us.

But i wasnt grinding only one content.

I did personal story, eotm, behemoth and other pve events and traded on the tp and I only played about 8 hours so far, yet you call it a grind. Why?

The question is what activities were responsible for what earning.

I know where you’re going with this, and I respectfully ask that you not turn this into a “TP players are evil” thread.

Nah just math.
If certain variables contribute comparatively little of his earnings, they don’t really illustrate how you don’t have to grind content to get to do things in a timely fashion.

Ie if doing story mode contributed 1/100th of his earnings its not really worth mentioning in the equation of how I was able to by ascended in a decent time frame

phys.7689:

Nah just math.
If certain variables contribute comparatively little of his earnings, they don’t really illustrate how you don’t have to grind content to get to do things in a timely fashion.

Ie if doing story mode contributed 1/100th of his earnings its not really worth mentioning in the equation of how I was able to by ascended in a decent time frame

You can’t compare rewards earned from your Personal Story, with profits made off of the TP. We’ve been over this before. One is newly generated coin introduced to the game, while the other is the movement of existing coin between players, and removes 15% out of the game as tax.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Nah just math.
If certain variables contribute comparatively little of his earnings, they don’t really illustrate how you don’t have to grind content to get to do things in a timely fashion.

Ie if doing story mode contributed 1/100th of his earnings its not really worth mentioning in the equation of how I was able to by ascended in a decent time frame

You can’t compare rewards earned from your Personal Story, with profits made off of the TP. We’ve been over this before. One is newly generated coin introduced to the game, while the other is the movement of existing coin between players, and removes 15% out of the game as tax.

You are missing the point. Its not about tp earning or what should give more. Its just math
A + B +C + d = enough gold for ascended

If a is 1
B is 3
C is 20
D is 480

A and b are not worth mentioning in the how I got ascended money equation.
You can mention C, but its still pretty much not signifigant

If some one wants to know how to get gold for ascended d is the only thing that really matters

phys.7689:

You are missing the point. Its not about tp earning or what should give more. Its just math
A + B +C + d = enough gold for ascended

If a is 1
B is 3
C is 20
D is 480

A and b are not worth mentioning in the how I got ascended money equation.
You can mention C, but its still pretty much not signifigant

If some one wants to know how to get gold for ascended d is the only thing that really matters

You’re skipping the fact that there’s another equation.

(A + C)B = Ascended gear

Where

A = playing the game to get material drops
B = time to play the game to acquire the drops
C = coin earned from playing the game

Edit – reformulated the equation

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

You are missing the point. Its not about tp earning or what should give more. Its just math
A + B +C + d = enough gold for ascended

If a is 1
B is 3
C is 20
D is 480

A and b are not worth mentioning in the how I got ascended money equation.
You can mention C, but its still pretty much not signifigant

If some one wants to know how to get gold for ascended d is the only thing that really matters

You’re skipping the fact that there’s another equation.

A + B + C = Ascended gear

Where

A = playing the game to get material drops
B = time to play the game to acquire the drops
C = coin earned from playing the game

Eh nvm, we aren’t communicating well. Not that important anyhow

Psientist.6437:

Pardon the bluntness but I consider what you’re describing to be fundamentally flawed game design. Weight-locked insignias would increase the disparity for players who spend time for the sake of hypothetical parity among players who spend currency.

Your predictions are hypothetical, they do not take into account the wide range of possible player reactions. For instance, the change in TP demand for silk could be accompanied by a decrease in the TP supply of silk as both medium and heavy armor crafters move towards more reliable sources of leather and ore.

False. Neither you nor I will know whether it will increase disparity or not. The point of weight-restricted insignia would be to decrease the high demand for the various fabrics required, while at the same time increasing the demand for the various ores and leathers by the, on paper, same amount. Whatever the true result of that is, no one knows. As it stands now, I, personally, refuse to mine mithril as weapon and heavy armor salvage gives me what I need. I also vendor about a stack of thick leather sections once or twice a week (more if my work schedule permits more play time). Silk I often dont have because it’s being refined into damask’s T7 material, which, again due to play time currently, is usually 1-1.5 a week. Do I complain about my limited play time keeping me from farming silk or damask? No, why would I? If I was going to do that, I’d complain about elonian leather (being able to buy not applicable), deldrimor ingots (being able to buy not applicable), and spiritwood planks (being able to buy not applicable) because I’m similarly limited from crafting those as well.

Second, and this is going to be rather blunt, but of course my predictions are hypothetical, I’m not an economist, Jon Smith, OR Uncle Pennybags. Obviously my limited theoretical knowledge and (enough to get by) practical knowledge means I cant say, “silk is going to do this.”

Third, what reliable sources of leather? You mean the same exact ones that silk can come from? You know? Salvage and containers? Even if the supply decreases, that too would be temporary. If the demand is that high still, a drop in supply pushes value, which then creates incentives to go out and supply silk. Same is true of leather and mithril.

Had more, but gotta spend my time efficiently while I can x.x

Pointless statement as there is nothing semantic about it.
For all I know, you said the first part yourself, as you didnt provide a quote-link.

I can’t be held responsible for micro-managing your brain.

So you need 1,700 Silk? Ok, your choice to need that. Play the game and gather the materials from drop salvages, or buy them on the TP. Grind to your heart’s content. Anet lets you play this game how you want to play. But because you decided to grind for these items, you can’t complain about it.

Look, just stop it. This is a stupid argument that just drags down the whole discussion and you can be better than that. “You don’t have to want the things that you want” is not a position that means anything. It’s always true and always irrelevant. The player wants what he wants, the developer’s job is to provide as many players with what they want as they can achieve simultaneously. That doesn’t mean that they always have to give every player what they want, but it does mean that they need to evaluate their position against the players at every turn, and if they decide to go against the players they need a good reason for it. I do not believe anyone has yet made a compelling reason why they shouldn’t give the players what they want here.

It has been 5 days and i made 185g through trading. That is enough gold to buy 8400 silk scraps and I didnt even have to kill more than a couple of dozen monsters to get my initial investment.

And that, in a nutshell, is THE WORST.

If any player went on and said “yeah, I just logged onto a new account, played two hours, got him to level 20 or so, and ran off to Sparkfly and soloed Tequatl,” it would send the devs scrambling to figure out what exploits he was using and shut those down ASAP, but when people do that sort of thing on the TP, for some reason some of you seem to see it as a system that is working.

You can’t compare rewards earned from your Personal Story, with profits made off of the TP. We’ve been over this before. One is newly generated coin introduced to the game, while the other is the movement of existing coin between players, and removes 15% out of the game as tax.

And that distinction is completely irrelevant to anyone who isn’t tasked with making sure the economy works (ie 99.9% of the players).

Ohoni.6057:

I do not believe anyone has yet made a compelling reason why they shouldn’t give the players what they want here.

No one has made any compelling reasons to change things either.

Ohoni.6057:

the market still needs some fundamental changes made to it because this is a game and players are entitled

Well, I cant really say that’s a compelling reason but “thumbs up” for the honesty.

Bernie.8674:

The old fashioned way was that I played through the entire story, completing every mission (including bonus objectives) along the way. When I reached Granite Citadel I dumped a good portion of the mats and gold I had acquired along the way into the best set of armor available in the game (stat-wise), and I was done. The old fashioned way isn’t available any more. I still play the game. I get my daily completionist achievement almost every day. The difference is that I’m going on 10 months with only 3/6 pieces of ascended armor. The weapon I have came out of a weapons chest that I lucked into during guild missions.

Since you don’t do fractals why do you feel you need ascended armor?

No one has made any compelling reasons to change things either.

Because we want it. That’s a compelling reason. Now there needs to be a reason to not give us what we want. In game design, everything is about “what do the players want,” and “can we feasibly give it to them?”

Well, I cant really say that’s a compelling reason but “thumbs up” for the honesty.

You do know that cutting sentences in half to remove their context is the weakest form of discourse, right? Well, aside from random fart jokes, I suppose.

Well, a lot of people that play games want BiS gear since they feel like they aren’t really “playing” the game unless they get that.

Ascended gear takes a long time to make, but since they’ve said that it’s going to be the highest tier of gear in the game EVER, then if a player can earn it any time before the closing down of the game, they consider this reasonable.

Ohoni.6057:

Because we want it. That’s a compelling reason. Now there needs to be a reason to not give us what we want. In game design, everything is about “what do the players want,” and “can we feasibly give it to them?”

If Anet gave players everything that they wanted, the game would last one week. We’d all have 50k Gold, full Ascended armor, and every Legendary weapon upon purchase of the game.

That is why Anet doesn’t give in to each and every demand from players. They know better than that. So from a business standpoint, give them a compelling reason to listen to what you have to suggest, but make sure it’s also a suggestion that doesn’t ruin the game.

Keep in mind, no matter how you define grind, the ascended tier was added with the specific intent of taking a long time to acquire as an intermediate tier of activities between full exotic kit (arguably accomplished in minutes) and legendary weapons.

My problem is not that they take a long time. My concern is one segment of the players (light armor wearers) are unduly challenged by choices that make their primary component disproportionately difficult to amass. To me valid “solutions” include making leather/medium and metal/heavy armor more difficult to come by — which could have the benefit of brining leather value up to be more in keeping with what at first blush are symmetrical items.

Still hoping to hear back from John Smith about the impact of the difference in recipes between Dwayna’s Wings (all cloth/all weights) and the three Gift of Blades-based backpacks (cloth/leather/metal depending on craft used).

If Anet gave players everything that they wanted, the game would last one week. We’d all have 50k Gold, full Ascended armor, and every Legendary weapon upon purchase of the game.

Yes, which is why I never said that they should give us everything that we want and why you’re resorting to strawman arguments in full retreat.

What I said is that they should give us what we want, for no other reason than that we want it, unless they have a compelling reason not to. That reason might be time investment on their end, it might be damage to game balance, it might be burn out, there are plenty of reasons to not give payers what they want and where those reasons exist they have to make a judgement call, but my point is, “because we want it” is plenty of justification on the “pro” side, we don’t need anything more than that, while the “con” side has not made a compelling case for why not.

So no, I don’t think that they should “give us 50k Gold, full Ascended armor, and every Legendary weapon upon purchase of the game,” but I do think they should balance the three ascended armor classes better, and base materials in general, and that they should do so for no more reason than that the players would appreciate that, and that to argue against that you need to present a compelling reason why it would cause more harm than good, and so far those that have been presented have suffered an agonizing death.

Ohoni.6057:

What I said is that they should give us what we want, for no other reason than that we want it, unless they have a compelling reason not to.

I think this is the pure definition of Entitlement. “Give us what we want because we want it” is not a valid reason onto itself. Just like saying “Rich players should be taxed to balance them with how much Gold I have in my bank”, or “Make Precursors cheaper so that I can afford them easier”.

Right now, the Silk market is not broken. The economy is not broken. The only imbalance that exists is player skill. Some players know how to farm smarter and faster, and some players know how to efficiently profit on the open market. Asking Anet to simplify things to make you happy results in other players getting punished for being good at what they do.

Should the government punish Bill Gates and Steve Jobs for being innovators? Should the NFL punish Marshawn Lynch for being a good running back? And should Anet punish Wanze for making 200 Gold off of players who willingly buy his Silk?

Ohoni.6057:

You do know that cutting sentences in half to remove their context is the weakest form of discourse, right? Well, aside from random fart jokes, I suppose.

You mean apart from quoting someone else and removing their name and link to that post?

Nike.2631:

Keep in mind, no matter how you define grind, the ascended tier was added with the specific intent of taking a long time to acquire as an intermediate tier of activities between full exotic kit (arguably accomplished in minutes) and legendary weapons.

My problem is not that they take a long time. My concern is one segment of the players (light armor wearers) are unduly challenged by choices that make their primary component disproportionately difficult to amass. To me valid “solutions” include making leather/medium and metal/heavy armor more difficult to come by — which could have the benefit of brining leather value up to be more in keeping with what at first blush are symmetrical items.

Still hoping to hear back from John Smith about the impact of the difference in recipes between Dwayna’s Wings (all cloth/all weights) and the three Gift of Blades-based backpacks (cloth/leather/metal depending on craft used).

At this point, you may be better off opening a separate topic for proposed changes that target the disparity in ascended armor costs for armor classes. I think nobody opposes a fairer approach as long as it doesnt have too much negative impact on other markets, like precursors for example. Or greatly reduces the costs or time investment of all ascended armor because I dont think that is something that Anet wants because it is supposed to be a long term goal.

I think this is the pure definition of Entitlement. “Give us what we want because we want it” is not a valid reason onto itself.

I would say it’s the definitely of entitlement in the sense of “things players should feel entitled to,” but assuming you intended it in the derogatory sense, then no, these are not unreasonable expectations of paying customers, that the devs should want to make the game as good as they possibly can.

This isn’t expecting that they would change the game in favor of any one player, like “give ME a Precursor because I want one,” but it is requesting a change that I believe most players would benefit from, properly executed.

Asking Anet to simplify things to make you happy results in other players getting punished for being good at what they do.

Not really. It just means that they’ll get less advantage for doing it. “Punishing them” would mean that they would make less for “Being good” than if they were “bad.” All this would do is balance out the rewards a bit.

Again, some people like hardcore PvP, and would enjoy a game in which the best players slaughter newbs left and right and the weaker players can barely get out of town. Others prefer games with no PvP. The GW2 economy is not “broken” in the sense that it works for no one, but it does have some serious issues when compared to the rest of the game, as it is a “hardcore PVP” economy in an otherwise uber-casual friendly product. It’d be like if Disneyland had a strip club in the castle.

Should the government punish Bill Gates and Steve Jobs for being innovators? Should the NFL punish Marshawn Lynch for being a good running back? And should Anet punish Wanze for making 200 Gold off of players who willingly buy his Silk?

No, but efforts should be taken to balance out their rewards with everyone else so that things don’t become too stratified, and that is not a “punishment.” The more the make, the less of it you need, and the more of it should go to the public good.

You mean apart from quoting someone else and removing their name and link to that post?

I don’t remove anything. Ctrl+c, [-quote-]Ctrl+v, [-/quote-], reply. I don’t see why this bothers you. I don’t respond to people, I respond to concepts, so who says a thing is irrelevant, unless you’re so narcissistic that you only go hunting for responses to your own posts. I copy out portions of your posts, but I at least respond to complete thoughts.

Wanze.8410:

At this point, you may be better off opening a separate topic for proposed changes that target the disparity in ascended armor costs for armor classes. I think nobody opposes a fairer approach as long as it doesnt have too much negative impact on other markets, like precursors for example. Or greatly reduces the costs or time investment of all ascended armor because I dont think that is something that Anet wants because it is supposed to be a long term goal.

This is the most sensible thing I’ve seen in the last two or three pages of this thread. For all the attempted blaming and shaming of the various ideologies involved, none of it makes a difference in the fact that Ascended cloth crafting is imbalanced with the rest of the system. The silk market is just a symptom of that.

I’m not sure what other good ideas will come with reintroducing a more positive take on Ascended crafting, but changing insignia seems like a solid one with at least a little support from ‘both sides’.

If they haven’t already, Gaile or John could hand the idea forward for discussion. We won’t know for at least a few months. (So hey, hold on to all that excess leather~)