Why no /inspect ?
I’m not sure why this isn’t even in the game. People are gonna check your gear anyway, by getting you to ping it. There’s really no reason an inspect option ISN’T in the game.
Elitism comes along with it – but if someone is advertising a speedrun and kicks you for being PVT, you had no room joining that group and were being ignorant by do so.
Rather than complaining it will segregate players, perhaps they should think about joining likeminded groups?
Just my 2c.
If someone is advertising a speed run, and in the ad already says ping gear, no reason not to. But if for other dungeons, fractals, and what not, where no such thing pinging gear is applied, /inspect becomes possible for people to discriminate against people with other builds. People sink into “various builds will only work for various dungeons, everything else will not work” mindset. We already started with that on cof 1, let’s not give that mindset to the other dungeons please. I want to play to have fun, not be judged because I came on my tanky bomb eng.
Don’t disturb me, I have a cat in me at the moment.
As I have said before, the game is running perfectly fine with this segregation it has at the moment. It is when you add tools that you start forcing things on people like “correct builds”. I run full zerk and with a good build so I’m not worried that people will judge me at the moment. Although look at it this way…. Anet want to add ascended armour right? Look at ascended trinkets and how long it can take to get the right ones you want. When people then start saying “ascended armour only” and the only way to get ascended armour is by playing content where people say “ascended armour only” – we have a problem.
Iaokoko you made an interesting point about the GW2 dungeon community and actually, I kinda agree. The dungeon community in this game can be very sour at times but I don’t think adding a tool like inspect will do anything good to help that, only make it worse. It would be nice to see what people are using but you can already do that by asking them to ping gear and the effort involved can deter people from this attitude. An inspect feature will encourage it more than anything.
I also think if a dungeon finder was to be implemented it would have to have options to separate people or a choice on which group you want to join, like G2WLFG. Issues will severely arise when they start throwing in extremely casual players with “efficient 1 build only” players. I don’t even wanna know what that would do to the already extremely divided dungeon community.
Rather than complaining it will segregate players
Exactly. It does. It will segregate players. Your complaining is equally ironic.
With CoF already as elitist as it gets, this feature might enforce particular specs being popular for other dungeons leading to the expectation that people WILL need a particular set up to be able to run any dungeon.
Then slowly, but surely, the games community degrades into one similar to another MMO that everyone knows about. The elitist mindset is already evident in this game, this would just push it further along. While you may not think that is an issue, many others would.
Minion
Why do people still think this game has some superb community? Most of it is just zombies camping world bosses.
Because it’s incredibly better than some mmo communities, which kinda reflects on how bad mmo’s have gotten as a whole.
So after watching some of the pvp spectating it seems they added a viable inspect window. Why dont we have this in PvE? Seems all the complaints of MF in dungeons, Multiple Condition people, and players not carrying their weight could be helped by this. You could make it group only or add an option to make it public or not. Perhaps even make it a link from the player like a /Show build command instead.
Because some players want to run in terrible sub-optimal (fun) builds. This is fine.
Some of these players also want to do dungeon content. This is also fine.
Some of those players lack friends/guilds to do said dungeons with and end up in groups with other players. Players that run in wonderful maximum DPS I-know-how-to-dodge-I-don’t-need-toughness builds. This is where the problem would begin.
Player A, the one in la-la land with his fun build is immediately called out by Player B for his sub par gear, stats, DPS and Magic Find. Cries of elitism ensue. Suddenly the servers catch fire and lo and behold demons walk the earth ready to drag our souls to eternal kitten ation.
And that is why we can not have inspect.
You have gotten what you paid for, all that remains is biweekly gemshop pushing.
If someone is advertising a speed run, and in the ad already says ping gear, no reason not to. But if for other dungeons, fractals, and what not, where no such thing pinging gear is applied, /inspect becomes possible for people to discriminate against people with other builds.
It is not a matter of discriminating other-than-zerker builds, /inspect will help to avoid builds and gear that are hands down just plain bad for group play and are not suited for any kind of teamwork and cooperation. You can find many examples in this thread, MF gear and 5-signet warriors are the most obvious cases.
Exactly. It does. It will segregate players. Your complaining is equally ironic.
Isn’t segregation already here? In this single thread you can notice the presence of at least two different groups of players with different approaches, that don’t want to play with each other. Even a simple discussion between these two groups turns into a heated argument. Why force them to play together if the don’t want to?
(edited by Konrad.9587)
If someone is advertising a speed run, and in the ad already says ping gear, no reason not to. But if for other dungeons, fractals, and what not, where no such thing pinging gear is applied, /inspect becomes possible for people to discriminate against people with other builds.
It is not a matter of discriminating other-than-zerker builds, /inspect will help to avoid builds and gear that are hands down just plain bad for group play and are not suited for any kind of teamwork and cooperation. You can find many examples in this thread, MF gear and 5-signet warriors are the most obvious cases.
Exactly. It does. It will segregate players. Your complaining is equally ironic.
Isn’t segregation already here? In this single thread you can notice the presence of at least two different groups of players with different approaches, that don’t want to play with each other. Even a simple discussion between these two groups turns into a heated argument. Why force them to play together if the don’t want to?
Because you don’t arm separatists with nuclear ICBMs just because they don’t want to have anything to do with the government?
Elitism is that bad apple that ruins the entire basket because the stink covers the whole marketplace
Elitists are already in game. Why would we want to give them an arsenal. Say no to gear scores, inspect and other invasive changes that give ammunition to those who want everything their way.
I’m not saying they can’t have their private little party. I’m saying that if they’re going to party anyway, we might as well sound proof the walls.
To the people who are against inspect : you are already getting kicked from my runs, why are you so vehement against a feature that would let me state it clearly before we enter the instance, rather than kick you mid run ? It’s not that difficult to spot terribad players during runs. It’s usually not for the stability active when you see a warrior with a Dolyak signet unless we’re doing lupicus. A warrior with axe offhand, a war with sword main hand, any of these will get kicked during the run, no need for a full gear check.
If I’m seeing these pathetic 1K heal appear on me I’ll know something is going wrong and someone is running shout heal. Booted.
If I see you do 100 blades and watch the mob bar go down by very little compared to my own autoattacking or even a whirlwind, I’ll know something is going wrong.Inspect would just allow me to kick you sooner. Both of us will waste less time. Because trust me, if there is another likeminded person in the group, consider yourself booted mid run.
To you…. You gotta be running dungeons to be kicked.. pfft.. That is no brainer.. And when I do run a dungeon I have never been kicked from a dungeon run obviously cause I didn’t have a spastic elitist in the rank. I am still against inspect.. You are not gonna change my mind so stop trying.
Together we stand in the face of evil!
Perhaps the most ironic thing in this thread is all the anti-elitist elitism.
Pointing out the flaws in hate against gays does not equate to discrimination of religion.
Telling a racist to shut his mouth is not the same as being racist for denying his white pride.
Explaining an elitist that I want to play a fun build instead of a cookie cutter, does not equate to elitism.
Treating anti-gay people or white priders the same way as they treat gay people/non-whites doesn’t make you morally superior, it makes you just like them, except, you’re also a hypocrite at the same time.
(Don’t get me wrong, I’m not anti-gay or racist, quite the contrary, you just fail to see the argument Guns and Giblets was making.)
Legion of Doom [LOD] – Death ’n Taxes [DnT]
“People wanting content where Berserker sucks should remember that it needs be so hard
that they will cry, not just a river, but a huge ocean.” – Wethospu
“People wanting content where Berserker sucks should remember that it needs be so hard
that they will cry, not just a river, but a huge ocean.” – Wethospu
If someone is advertising a speed run, and in the ad already says ping gear, no reason not to. But if for other dungeons, fractals, and what not, where no such thing pinging gear is applied, /inspect becomes possible for people to discriminate against people with other builds.
It is not a matter of discriminating other-than-zerker builds, /inspect will help to avoid builds and gear that are hands down just plain bad for group play and are not suited for any kind of teamwork and cooperation. You can find many examples in this thread, MF gear and 5-signet warriors are the most obvious cases.
Who are you to tell me that my tanky bomb engineer is just plain bad for group play? You’re running into two problems here: 1) you’re assuming people’s build is bad (according to some metric that only satisfies YOU) and 2) you’re not even sure if that build really is “terrible”.
Don’t disturb me, I have a cat in me at the moment.
Who are you to tell me that my tanky bomb engineer is just plain bad for group play? You’re running into two problems here: 1) you’re assuming people’s build is bad (according to some metric that only satisfies YOU) and 2) you’re not even sure if that build really is “terrible”.
The metric is how long it takes to finish the dungeon run. When you consistently do it in 10 minutes with a good group setup, then some night you have to fill out with PUGs and end up taking 50 or 100% longer, you know what’s going on.
The only metric that matters in PvE is damage output, and thus time taken to kill bosses and complete the dungeon. There is no fight in this game that isn’t made shorter by bringing more damage. When someone joins with So Awesome, So Support, OMG So Tank build, things take longer. Again, if we had DPS meters in this game, folks like you would realize how very little you actually contribute to fights compared to even an average zerk class/build. That’s why your favorite builds are terrible.
Retired. Too many casuals.
Who are you to tell me that my tanky bomb engineer is just plain bad for group play? You’re running into two problems here: 1) you’re assuming people’s build is bad (according to some metric that only satisfies YOU) and 2) you’re not even sure if that build really is “terrible”.
And who told you your bomb engineer is bad? It’s not rocket science but common sense, and you don’t need any kind of a metric to know that 5-signet warrior or the only guardian without a single reflect at grawl fractal 48, are just terrible for group play.
There are many more factors to consider if a dungeon run will turn out good or bad. Yes more damage means faster fights, but that holds true only if people are not dying left and right. So things like people getting downed, people knowing the fights, etc. Sure cof1 is mindnumbingly easy, but other dungeons are much harder, and not everyone is going to be perfect the first time around (i.e. dodging at the right time, using the right utilities, etc).
And who told you your bomb engineer is bad? It’s not rocket science but common sense, and you don’t need any kind of a metric to know that 5-signet warrior or the only guardian without a single reflect at grawl fractal 48, are just terrible for group play.
The guy above implicitly said that my build is bad because it is not a damage build.
Don’t disturb me, I have a cat in me at the moment.
If someone is advertising a speed run, and in the ad already says ping gear, no reason not to. But if for other dungeons, fractals, and what not, where no such thing pinging gear is applied, /inspect becomes possible for people to discriminate against people with other builds.
It is not a matter of discriminating other-than-zerker builds, /inspect will help to avoid builds and gear that are hands down just plain bad for group play and are not suited for any kind of teamwork and cooperation. You can find many examples in this thread, MF gear and 5-signet warriors are the most obvious cases.
Who are you to tell me that my tanky bomb engineer is just plain bad for group play? You’re running into two problems here: 1) you’re assuming people’s build is bad (according to some metric that only satisfies YOU) and 2) you’re not even sure if that build really is “terrible”.
What is tanky bomb engineer? When were they introduced in gw2?
If someone is advertising a speed run, and in the ad already says ping gear, no reason not to. But if for other dungeons, fractals, and what not, where no such thing pinging gear is applied, /inspect becomes possible for people to discriminate against people with other builds.
It is not a matter of discriminating other-than-zerker builds, /inspect will help to avoid builds and gear that are hands down just plain bad for group play and are not suited for any kind of teamwork and cooperation. You can find many examples in this thread, MF gear and 5-signet warriors are the most obvious cases.
Who are you to tell me that my tanky bomb engineer is just plain bad for group play? You’re running into two problems here: 1) you’re assuming people’s build is bad (according to some metric that only satisfies YOU) and 2) you’re not even sure if that build really is “terrible”.
What is tanky bomb engineer? When were they introduced in gw2?
p/s, bomb kit, full knights armor, full cavalier, 0/0/30/30/10 spec (hgh sub-build for damage), run around spamming bombs and healing groups.
Don’t disturb me, I have a cat in me at the moment.
If someone is advertising a speed run, and in the ad already says ping gear, no reason not to. But if for other dungeons, fractals, and what not, where no such thing pinging gear is applied, /inspect becomes possible for people to discriminate against people with other builds.
It is not a matter of discriminating other-than-zerker builds, /inspect will help to avoid builds and gear that are hands down just plain bad for group play and are not suited for any kind of teamwork and cooperation. You can find many examples in this thread, MF gear and 5-signet warriors are the most obvious cases.
Who are you to tell me that my tanky bomb engineer is just plain bad for group play? You’re running into two problems here: 1) you’re assuming people’s build is bad (according to some metric that only satisfies YOU) and 2) you’re not even sure if that build really is “terrible”.
What is tanky bomb engineer? When were they introduced in gw2?
p/s, bomb kit, full knights armor, full cavalier, 0/0/30/30/10 spec (hgh sub-build for damage), run around spamming bombs and healing groups.
I know, i was beaing sacrastics, engie is almost useless anyway but you are pushing the limit. HGH is pretty good in pvp have to admit. Now reroll zerker warrior and see the power.
If someone is advertising a speed run, and in the ad already says ping gear, no reason not to. But if for other dungeons, fractals, and what not, where no such thing pinging gear is applied, /inspect becomes possible for people to discriminate against people with other builds.
It is not a matter of discriminating other-than-zerker builds, /inspect will help to avoid builds and gear that are hands down just plain bad for group play and are not suited for any kind of teamwork and cooperation. You can find many examples in this thread, MF gear and 5-signet warriors are the most obvious cases.
Who are you to tell me that my tanky bomb engineer is just plain bad for group play? You’re running into two problems here: 1) you’re assuming people’s build is bad (according to some metric that only satisfies YOU) and 2) you’re not even sure if that build really is “terrible”.
What is tanky bomb engineer? When were they introduced in gw2?
p/s, bomb kit, full knights armor, full cavalier, 0/0/30/30/10 spec (hgh sub-build for damage), run around spamming bombs and healing groups.
I know, i was beaing sacrastics, engie is almost useless anyway but you are pushing the limit. HGH is pretty good in pvp have to admit. Now reroll zerker warrior and see the power.
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this mindset is what we’re actually trying to avoid. I have a zerker mes so trust me I have indeed seen the power. It’s just that some instances or group comps, i’d rather have my eng than my mes (esp in instances where survival is more important than damage).
Don’t disturb me, I have a cat in me at the moment.
If someone is advertising a speed run, and in the ad already says ping gear, no reason not to. But if for other dungeons, fractals, and what not, where no such thing pinging gear is applied, /inspect becomes possible for people to discriminate against people with other builds.
It is not a matter of discriminating other-than-zerker builds, /inspect will help to avoid builds and gear that are hands down just plain bad for group play and are not suited for any kind of teamwork and cooperation. You can find many examples in this thread, MF gear and 5-signet warriors are the most obvious cases.
Who are you to tell me that my tanky bomb engineer is just plain bad for group play? You’re running into two problems here: 1) you’re assuming people’s build is bad (according to some metric that only satisfies YOU) and 2) you’re not even sure if that build really is “terrible”.
What is tanky bomb engineer? When were they introduced in gw2?
p/s, bomb kit, full knights armor, full cavalier, 0/0/30/30/10 spec (hgh sub-build for damage), run around spamming bombs and healing groups.
I know, i was beaing sacrastics, engie is almost useless anyway but you are pushing the limit. HGH is pretty good in pvp have to admit. Now reroll zerker warrior and see the power.
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this mindset is what we’re actually trying to avoid. I have a zerker mes so trust me I have indeed seen the power. It’s just that some instances or group comps, i’d rather have my eng than my mes (esp in instances where survival is more important than damage).
Yea, cause engi is insane putting reflects, taking aways boons, curing conditions, pulling mobs, fast ressing with TW…
If someone is advertising a speed run, and in the ad already says ping gear, no reason not to. But if for other dungeons, fractals, and what not, where no such thing pinging gear is applied, /inspect becomes possible for people to discriminate against people with other builds.
It is not a matter of discriminating other-than-zerker builds, /inspect will help to avoid builds and gear that are hands down just plain bad for group play and are not suited for any kind of teamwork and cooperation. You can find many examples in this thread, MF gear and 5-signet warriors are the most obvious cases.
Who are you to tell me that my tanky bomb engineer is just plain bad for group play? You’re running into two problems here: 1) you’re assuming people’s build is bad (according to some metric that only satisfies YOU) and 2) you’re not even sure if that build really is “terrible”.
What is tanky bomb engineer? When were they introduced in gw2?
p/s, bomb kit, full knights armor, full cavalier, 0/0/30/30/10 spec (hgh sub-build for damage), run around spamming bombs and healing groups.
I know, i was beaing sacrastics, engie is almost useless anyway but you are pushing the limit. HGH is pretty good in pvp have to admit. Now reroll zerker warrior and see the power.
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this mindset is what we’re actually trying to avoid. I have a zerker mes so trust me I have indeed seen the power. It’s just that some instances or group comps, i’d rather have my eng than my mes (esp in instances where survival is more important than damage).
Yea, cause engi is insane putting reflects, taking aways boons, curing conditions, pulling mobs, fast ressing with TW…
lol?
Reflect? check http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toss_Elixir_U
Boon removal? check http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Throw_Mine
Curing conditions? check http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleaning_Formula_409
pulling mobs? check http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kit_Refinement
(if to pull mobs, you want to disorient their position/knockbacks then we have them too: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Big_Ol%27_Bomb and http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magnetic_Inversion)
4 out of 5, not bad I’d say.
and 3/5 of that is what I use regularly too. (I don’t use minefield coz no one really needs boon removal in pve, except in very rare circumstances)
Don’t disturb me, I have a cat in me at the moment.
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this mindset is what we’re actually trying to avoid. I have a zerker mes so trust me I have indeed seen the power. It’s just that some instances or group comps, i’d rather have my eng than my mes (esp in instances where survival is more important than damage).
Which encounter does this describe?
Retired. Too many casuals.
If someone is advertising a speed run, and in the ad already says ping gear, no reason not to. But if for other dungeons, fractals, and what not, where no such thing pinging gear is applied, /inspect becomes possible for people to discriminate against people with other builds.
It is not a matter of discriminating other-than-zerker builds, /inspect will help to avoid builds and gear that are hands down just plain bad for group play and are not suited for any kind of teamwork and cooperation. You can find many examples in this thread, MF gear and 5-signet warriors are the most obvious cases.
Who are you to tell me that my tanky bomb engineer is just plain bad for group play? You’re running into two problems here: 1) you’re assuming people’s build is bad (according to some metric that only satisfies YOU) and 2) you’re not even sure if that build really is “terrible”.
What is tanky bomb engineer? When were they introduced in gw2?
p/s, bomb kit, full knights armor, full cavalier, 0/0/30/30/10 spec (hgh sub-build for damage), run around spamming bombs and healing groups.
I know, i was beaing sacrastics, engie is almost useless anyway but you are pushing the limit. HGH is pretty good in pvp have to admit. Now reroll zerker warrior and see the power.
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this mindset is what we’re actually trying to avoid. I have a zerker mes so trust me I have indeed seen the power. It’s just that some instances or group comps, i’d rather have my eng than my mes (esp in instances where survival is more important than damage).
Yea, cause engi is insane putting reflects, taking aways boons, curing conditions, pulling mobs, fast ressing with TW…
lol?
Reflect? check http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toss_Elixir_U
Boon removal? check http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Throw_Mine
Curing conditions? check http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleaning_Formula_409
pulling mobs? check http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kit_Refinement
(if to pull mobs, you want to disorient their position/knockbacks then we have them too: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Big_Ol%27_Bomb and http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magnetic_Inversion)4 out of 5, not bad I’d say.
and 3/5 of that is what I use regularly too. (I don’t use minefield coz no one really needs boon removal in pve, except in very rare circumstances)
And what if smoke screen pop up? Boon removal nowhere near mesmer or necro. Condition curing is pretty good, have to admit on this. And i meant pulling mobs so warriors and reall DPS builds can kill them faster.
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this mindset is what we’re actually trying to avoid. I have a zerker mes so trust me I have indeed seen the power. It’s just that some instances or group comps, i’d rather have my eng than my mes (esp in instances where survival is more important than damage).
Which encounter does this describe?
Generally, most boss encounters. For example, the grast path in ac (although this is more applicable to aoe healing/boon-giving specs like staff ele), grawl fractal final boss (esp when someone gets hit by agony twice in a row), and other bosses that 1-2 hit you with a special attack if you’re not careful. Heck even the F&F final duo boss. I found it was faster and easier to do on my guard (wall of reflection ftw) than on my mes.
@sotva
if smokescreen pops up, well, it’s the lesser half, but still worthwhile nonetheless, and yea boon removal is terrible on eng but at least the option is present if you desperately need it (when do you actually need it in pve though? haven’t seen an encounter requiring one to do so). And magnetic pull thingy on bomb kit actually works pretty well, if not for the oddly-timed delay. It certainly is more consistent for grouping up mobs than temporal curtain.
And we’re derailing far too much from the topic. Although I can see a new issue possibly rising up: Is there such a thing as an “acceptable and viable” build for these elitists, or must it simply be pure zerker/damage-spec? This presents quite a conundrum because if the first one is accepted, what dictates what is an “acceptable and viable” build for each class? If the second one is accepted, what’s the point of other specs in the first place (further ostracizing a great many people playing different builds)?
Don’t disturb me, I have a cat in me at the moment.
(edited by penatbater.4710)
What you’re describing is differences in skill level. Dodging the right attacks has little to do with what class and build you bring. Player skill being equal, not a single encounter in the game will not be over faster with a higher damage-focused group setup. And that comes, in large part, from class, gear, and build.
Let me repeat that to be clear: there is no encounter in this game that isn’t over faster with more team DPS.
Retired. Too many casuals.
What you’re describing is differences in skill level. Dodging the right attacks has little to do with what class and build you bring. Player skill being equal, not a single encounter in the game will not be over faster with a higher damage-focused group setup. And that comes, in large part, from class, gear, and build.
Let me repeat that to be clear: there is no encounter in this game that isn’t over faster with more team DPS.
But that’s the problem. Player skill is not equal. So while some of us have to use tanky gear to compensate for our lack of skill, it is equally faulty to assume that someone has overcame the skill barrier by his usage of a high-dmg gear.
Moreover, player skill has a higher impact than gear itself.
I will, however, concede your point. Assuming everyone in the party is highly skilled, full-dps is preferable over other builds. However, we cannot make that assumption when taking in PUGs, and this is certainly a cause for concern. We cannot force people to be skilled when they’re not, nor expect them to suddenly be skilled as being skilled takes time and patience and each person improves at a different pace.
Don’t disturb me, I have a cat in me at the moment.
(edited by penatbater.4710)
That’s right….it’s all about how fast you can get to the cookie. “Gimme my rewards now kitten!”
/inspect encourages the mentality that we all must conform to a specific class/armor/spec/build and that to be different is somehow wrong.
“You must be x class”
“You must have x armor”
“You must have x weapon”
“You must have x, y, and z utilities”
“You must have x points in y trait, with options a, d, and f”
Nothing else will suffice. Nothing else is ‘ok.’
We already have issues with segregation, discrimination, and elitist attitudes. We do not need to make it worse by giving them things to make it easier.
-1 for /inspect
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
That’s right….it’s all about how fast you can get to the cookie. “Gimme my rewards now kitten!”
/inspect encourages the mentality that we all must conform to a specific class/armor/spec/build and that to be different is somehow wrong.
“You must be x class”
“You must have x armor”
“You must have x weapon”
“You must have x, y, and z utilities”
“You must have x points in y trait, with options a, d, and f”Nothing else will suffice. Nothing else is ‘ok.’
We already have issues with segregation, discrimination, and elitist attitudes. We do not need to make it worse by giving them things to make it easier.
-1 for /inspect
A lack of self-confidence leads to conforming to a specific build. Saying /inspect leads to cookie cutter builds is like saying that the Chat Window fosters elitism and leads to cookie cutter builds.
“This dude messaged me and told me my build sucks. We should get rid of in-game messaging, so people can’t criticize my build and force me to play their way.”
Bullies and bad mannered players will always force their will on you. It is up to YOU to stand up to them. We do this already by forming our own “all classes welcome” CoF runs.
Jerks and “elitists” will use whatever tools they have available to them, whether it is DPS meters, /inspect, text-chat, or even /spit emotes. This shouldn’t be a reason to deny the rest of the player base valuable tools.
If you enjoy your own, non-cookie cutter build so much, you should be able to defend your conscious decisions in choosing your gear and build. You should also avoid putting yourself in positions where people would criticize you gear. If you want to avoid elitists, stop trying to sneak into full-zerker runs.
What if Anet wanted to add in-game voice chat? Would we say no, because it would allow elitists to call us out through another medium besides text chat?
isn’t building an effective gear a part of being a skilled player?
Not tp jump on Konrad here, but I think this misconception should be addressed as it seems to be driving a lot of the debate. There’s a belief that having an accepted good build and having the right gear for that build, which could be seen in a theoretical inspect mode, are tied to player skill. That, however, is completely untrue.
I’ve played a warrior to level 3 and then deleted her because I wanted the slot for a different class. I have no real idea how the class works. I do, however, have a Guard at 80 and a Ranger at 80. I could very conceivably create a new warrior, craft her to level 80 and use my Guard and Ranger to collect/buy her the perfect gear set. I could then go to the Warrior section on this very forum to find out what the generally accepted best Warrior build is. Boom. Level 80 Warrior with the ability to pass almost any inspect with flying colours.. yet I’d have no idea at all how to play the class. Heck, I might not even have all of my weapon skills unlocked and could be pushing it for slotted skills too. Sure, it’s an extreme example, but it pretty clearly illustrates the point that there is no connection between what you see in an inspection and what you get in terms of player ability/knowledge/skill/etc.
@scrambles
I think everyone and their mother has conceded the fact that if you join a zerker speedrun of cof, you’d better have the gear. The cause for concern applies to other dungeons, having the potential to devolve into what we have for cof at the moment.
@nikaido
I’ve already stated boon removal isn’t an eng’s strong suite. Null field is indeed awesome, but the problem is it has such a small radius, or a static radius that people don’t run into it to remove their conditions. I also like to have a condition-removal on demand (like a traited mantra heal for mes) for those clutch moments. Anyway, this isn’t a debate about eng vs mes. It’s not even a debate whether a build is viable or not (although that is part of it). It’s a debate, in its entirety, about the effects of /inspect would on the community.
Don’t disturb me, I have a cat in me at the moment.
@scrambles
I think everyone and their mother has conceded the fact that if you join a zerker speedrun of cof, you’d better have the gear. The cause for concern applies to other dungeons, having the potential to devolve into what we have for cof at the moment.
If people were upfront with what they wanted from dungeon groups (like the current zerker CoF run) then it would be a non-issue. This is a “putting groups together” issue, not a /inspect issue.
What i am hearing is “I don’t want /inspect because it would lead to me being kicked from groups with people i wouldn’t want to group with in the first place.”
I feel like you should be supporting inspect, because it would be an obvious red flag as to who you don’t want to play with. If you join a seemingly normal CoF run, and the first thing the party leader does is start talking crap about your gear he just /inspected, then LEAVE! You shouldn’t have to take that crap! If it wasn’t for inspect he would probably just call you out for wiping 15 mins into the run. The way i see it, /inspect would save both parties that 15 mins.
You guys are so self-conscious about your builds and gear. This is an MMO, i don’t know what you expected but interacting with other sub-humans is part of the ride.
Rather than an /inspect, how about a one-button ping gear? How often are players running around with identical sets of gear with different stats? It seems like a lot of effort (and gold) spent just to try to run with the big kids. If these people exist, they’re going to try to fool inspect by changing once the run begins. If players notice anything, say, “X, ping gear now.” If s/he takes the time to change out a minimum of 13 pieces, this should be noticeable.
If people were upfront with what they wanted from dungeon groups (like the current zerker CoF run) then it would be a non-issue. This is a “putting groups together” issue, not a /inspect issue.
What i am hearing is “I don’t want /inspect because it would lead to me being kicked from groups with people i wouldn’t want to group with in the first place.”
I feel like you should be supporting inspect, because it would be an obvious red flag as to who you don’t want to play with. If you join a seemingly normal CoF run, and the first thing the party leader does is start talking crap about your gear he just /inspected, then LEAVE! You shouldn’t have to take that crap! If it wasn’t for inspect he would probably just call you out for wiping 15 mins into the run. The way i see it, /inspect would save both parties that 15 mins.
You guys are so self-conscious about your builds and gear. This is an MMO, i don’t know what you expected but interacting with other sub-humans is part of the ride.
They’d call me out for wiping IF we do wipe. But if not? Why are you unnecessarily discriminating against me if you haven’t even seen me play? How sure are you that my build will cause me to wipe? As I’ve said, if you ask people in a nice manner about their build, chances are, they would respond. The issue is more of discriminating against particular builds even before they’ve seen my performance, giving bullies the tools they need to antagonize other players more, etc.
Don’t disturb me, I have a cat in me at the moment.
If people were upfront with what they wanted from dungeon groups (like the current zerker CoF run) then it would be a non-issue. This is a “putting groups together” issue, not a /inspect issue.
What i am hearing is “I don’t want /inspect because it would lead to me being kicked from groups with people i wouldn’t want to group with in the first place.”
I feel like you should be supporting inspect, because it would be an obvious red flag as to who you don’t want to play with. If you join a seemingly normal CoF run, and the first thing the party leader does is start talking crap about your gear he just /inspected, then LEAVE! You shouldn’t have to take that crap! If it wasn’t for inspect he would probably just call you out for wiping 15 mins into the run. The way i see it, /inspect would save both parties that 15 mins.
You guys are so self-conscious about your builds and gear. This is an MMO, i don’t know what you expected but interacting with other sub-humans is part of the ride.
They’d call me out for wiping IF we do wipe. But if not? Why are you unnecessarily discriminating against me if you haven’t even seen me play? How sure are you that my build will cause me to wipe? As I’ve said, if you ask people in a nice manner about their build, chances are, they would respond. The issue is more of discriminating against particular builds even before they’ve seen my performance, giving bullies the tools they need to antagonize other players more, etc.
Bullies will use whatever tools they can to antagonize. They already thrive without these tools. That means we should deny legitimate players access to those tools as well? There are more reasons to use /inspect besides denying casuals entry into dungeons.
If you aren’t /inspected and you don’t wipe then obviously there is no issue. If someone /inspects you and says “NOPE! sorry no condition gear noob” then eff that guy! He doesn’t deserve to be grouped with you anyway. That is not a good enough reason to deny legitimate players access to more in-game tools.
Bullies will use whatever tools they can to antagonize. They already thrive without these tools. That means we should deny legitimate players access to those tools as well? There are more reasons to use /inspect besides denying casuals entry into dungeons.
If you aren’t /inspected and you don’t wipe then obviously there is no issue. If someone /inspects you and says “NOPE! sorry no condition gear noob” then eff that guy! He doesn’t deserve to be grouped with you anyway. That is not a good enough reason to deny legitimate players access to more in-game tools.
Aye, bullies can even use Zomorros to antagonize other players if possible. The question is, why are we giving them the tools in the first place? Is the need of legitimate players so great that we would be willing to accept this evil? Would the harm it cause justify the good it brings?
Don’t disturb me, I have a cat in me at the moment.
A lack of self-confidence leads to conforming to a specific build. Saying /inspect leads to cookie cutter builds is like saying that the Chat Window fosters elitism and leads to cookie cutter builds.
“This dude messaged me and told me my build sucks. We should get rid of in-game messaging, so people can’t criticize my build and force me to play their way.”
Bullies and bad mannered players will always force their will on you. It is up to YOU to stand up to them. We do this already by forming our own “all classes welcome” CoF runs.
Jerks and “elitists” will use whatever tools they have available to them, whether it is DPS meters, /inspect, text-chat, or even /spit emotes. This shouldn’t be a reason to deny the rest of the player base valuable tools.
If you enjoy your own, non-cookie cutter build so much, you should be able to defend your conscious decisions in choosing your gear and build. You should also avoid putting yourself in positions where people would criticize you gear. If you want to avoid elitists, stop trying to sneak into full-zerker runs.
What if Anet wanted to add in-game voice chat? Would we say no, because it would allow elitists to call us out through another medium besides text chat?
Oh I have no issue defending my choices…in GW1 or in GW2, and do so quite vocally. As I have said many times, we are more than the gear we wear and the weapon we choose. However I, and those like me, get cast out simply because we don’t conform. Plain and simple. It happens in EVERY game you play. We simply would like to curtail it as much as we possibly can in this one. Not enabling those mentalities is one such way of doing this, ie not giving them tools to make it EASIER.
People may claim all they wish, that the /inspect feature is just a benign way of not wasting time (theirs or yours) and I call bullkitten every time. Ok some people might actually use it in such a way, but the vast majority will not. They will abuse it and treat other players like garbage because they don’t conform. That is what this type of tool enables. We did just fine without in GW1, we do just fine without it now in GW2. It. Is. Not. Needed.
It is only a ‘valuable’ tool if it is used in a productive, useful manner by the majority. Which, in my personal experience, the /inspect tool almost never is. (I cannot think of any ‘value’ to a /spit emote except to be crude and abusive to another player. Polite people don’t spit in public)
Oh, and I have never (and will never) join a ‘zerker’ run. Nor ‘sneak into’ one. Personally, I’d love to see all speed clears abolished, BUT that’s just me. I realize some people enjoy them, so…so be it. My concern is such things getting out of hand….again. But that conversation is a whole different thread.
Edit: Side note….I actually have no issues with in game voice chat. I’m all for that.
Aye, bullies can even use Zomorros to antagonize other players if possible. The question is, why are we giving them the tools in the first place? Is the need of legitimate players so great that we would be willing to accept this evil? Would the harm it cause justify the good it brings?
It’s interesting that he calls out that this tool is necessary for ‘legitimate’ players. So….the rest of us are not legitimate players? lawl
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
(edited by LanfearShadowflame.3189)
Bullies will use whatever tools they can to antagonize. They already thrive without these tools. That means we should deny legitimate players access to those tools as well? There are more reasons to use /inspect besides denying casuals entry into dungeons.
If you aren’t /inspected and you don’t wipe then obviously there is no issue. If someone /inspects you and says “NOPE! sorry no condition gear noob” then eff that guy! He doesn’t deserve to be grouped with you anyway. That is not a good enough reason to deny legitimate players access to more in-game tools.
Aye, bullies can even use Zomorros to antagonize other players if possible. The question is, why are we giving them the tools in the first place? Is the need of legitimate players so great that we would be willing to accept this evil? Would the harm it cause justify the good it brings?
This is essentially the crux of the question. IMO, the positive uses for /inspect outweigh the negative impact. From what i’ve gathered, the negative impact is based on absolutely NO concrete evidence. Some people say it makes communities worse, yet i have seen both good and bad communities in games with /inspect functions.
Obviously, this is anecdotal, and i am no scientist, but i would venture to guess that the behavior of the community is based on the behavior of individual players, not the tools they have access to.
I’m baffled that a game that is ultimately based on personal skill (not stat based) and collecting neat aesthetics doesn’t have /inspect feature in PvE.
The fear is people will use /inspect to exclude you from content. Does exclusion from content not already exist?? Are people already being forced into cookie-cutter gears for high-end “elitist” runs?? What you are afraid that /inspect will bring already exists in-game.
also, laokoko made a point earlier that the conflict between the two groups of players (elitists and casuals) exists because of the content itself. Without hard-mode dungeons, casuals and elites are forced to intermingle unknowingly and this is where the conflict arises. If nothing else, /inspect would reduce this conflict, because players would have a better idea of the type of players they’re about to run with.
(edited by Scrambles.2604)
Edit: Side note….I actually have no issues with in game voice chat. I’m all for that.
Why add a voice chat? It would just be a tool that enables more elitism. The negative effects of it destroying our perfect community outweigh the increased accessibility of communication. Personally, i am a fast typer and have no need for voice chat. So, only elitists and bullies would use it to hurt my feelings. And if you really want to voice chat you can just use mumble or teamspeak. Do you see where i’m going with this?
Edit: Side note….I actually have no issues with in game voice chat. I’m all for that.
Why add a voice chat? It would just be a tool that enables more elitism. The negative effects of it destroying our perfect community outweigh the increased accessibility of communication. Personally, i am a fast typer and have no need for voice chat. So, only elitists and bullies would use it to hurt my feelings. And if you really want to voice chat you can just use mumble or teamspeak. Do you see where i’m going with this?
There’s a big difference here. Voice chat is completely optional. You don’t have to use it. No one can force you to use it, and if you opt to use it and they are kitten-bags, you log off of it.
You have NO SAY in someone /inspecting your armor, whenever and wherever they please. You have no say in someone booting you because you don’t conform to their standards even though perhaps they didn’t say they wanted x-y-z or you’re on par with their DPS, but they just don’t your setup. Yes, we have these issues already. I am saying that /inspect will make it worse.
“Judge not the book by its cover” and this is EXACTLY what inspect lets you do. First impressions are more often than not wrong, yet we still let them color our judgement. Don’t you think its time we rise above base human nature and be something better?
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
Edit: Side note….I actually have no issues with in game voice chat. I’m all for that.
Why add a voice chat? It would just be a tool that enables more elitism. The negative effects of it destroying our perfect community outweigh the increased accessibility of communication. Personally, i am a fast typer and have no need for voice chat. So, only elitists and bullies would use it to hurt my feelings. And if you really want to voice chat you can just use mumble or teamspeak. Do you see where i’m going with this?
There’s a big difference here. Voice chat is completely optional. You don’t have to use it. No one can force you to use it, and if you opt to use it and they are kitten-bags, you log off of it.
You have NO SAY in someone /inspecting your armor, whenever and wherever they please. You have no say in someone booting you because you don’t conform to their standards even though perhaps they didn’t say they wanted x-y-z or you’re on par with their DPS, but they just don’t your setup. Yes, we have these issues already. I am saying that /inspect will make it worse.
“Judge not the book by its cover” and this is EXACTLY what inspect lets you do. First impressions are more often than not wrong, yet we still let them color our judgement. Don’t you think its time we rise above base human nature and be something better?
Voice chat is just as optional as inspect. If someone is harassing you, mute/ignore them. If someone boots you because of your gear i ASSURE you that you are better off not playing with them. If this thread has shown anything, you are among like-minded players, and should have no problem grouping with someone who doesn’t care about your gear. I would recommend that you stop trying to play with people that dont want to play with you.
I avoid dungeon runs that call for specific class/gear and have never had an issue. I intentionally group with like minded people. One time, someone was acting like a jerk to someone else in my group, SO I LEFT! I’m not going to choose to play with people like that!
The only issue i have had in a dungeon, was being called a noob because of the gear it APPEARED i was wearing. My gear may look like a mix of blues/greens, when it is actually just transmuted full-exotics. That wouldn’t have happened with /inspect.
edit; I can also see a scenario where you would get booted outright from a group for not having voice chat activated, so there’s also that.
(edited by Scrambles.2604)
I’ve already stated boon removal isn’t an eng’s strong suite. Null field is indeed awesome, but the problem is it has such a small radius, or a static radius that people don’t run into it to remove their conditions. I also like to have a condition-removal on demand (like a traited mantra heal for mes) for those clutch moments. Anyway, this isn’t a debate about eng vs mes. It’s not even a debate whether a build is viable or not (although that is part of it). It’s a debate, in its entirety, about the effects of /inspect would on the community.
I’m really glad you said this, because it actually is a major part of the issue. Those of us that want /inspect and want to run full DPS groups aren’t concerned with what’s viable or not. The community concerned with speedclearing dungeons almost universally admits that any random assortment of classes and builds is viable in this game. We don’t just want viable builds in our groups, we want exceptional builds. And those are, unfortunately due to poor PvE balance, very few in number.
Of course, even a poor player in an exceptional build will underperform, but an average player in an exceptional build can easily outperform a quite good player on a subpar build.
Retired. Too many casuals.
Nothing that has been said has changed my mind. I still absolutely do not want anyone to be able to inspect my gear without my permission.
Anything I post is just the opinion of a very vocal minority of 1.
Voice chat is just as optional as inspect.
Inspect is not optional. Anyone can /inspect me at any time…without me knowing if they are even doing it. (And gods, please no annoying ‘so and so wants to inspect your armor’ pop ups). If we have the option to shut it off….how many people do you think are going to annoy you with ‘what are you afraid of? why won’t you let me /inspect you? come on chicken-kitten, show me what you got’ Ugh, bad WoW flash backs.
If someone is harassing you, mute/ignore them.
You’re aware that there is a limit to the ignore list right? Most people will probably agree that “most” of the players you meet in game are kittens, but you have to sift through the bad ones to find the few good ones. Still, if I tried putting all the bad ones on ignore, they wouldn’t all fit. [Maybe it’s just my luck. I’m naturally abrasive and opinionated -grin-)
If someone boots you because of your gear i ASSURE you that you are better off not playing with them. If this thread has shown anything, you are among like-minded players, and should have no problem grouping with someone who doesn’t care about your gear. I would recommend that you stop trying to play with people that dont want to play with you.
I avoid dungeon runs that call for specific class/gear and have never had an issue. I intentionally group with like minded people. One time, someone was acting like a jerk to someone else in my group, SO I LEFT! I’m not going to choose to play with people like that!
The only issue i have had in a dungeon, was being called a noob because of the gear it APPEARED i was wearing. My gear may look like a mix of blues/greens, when it is actually just transmuted full-exotics. That wouldn’t have happened with /inspect.
I don’t do dungeons (unless I absolutely have to) – too many kittens. I tried a few times…I really did. I was polite, I took suggestions, I asked questions, checked the wiki for guidance so I wasn’t completely without knowledge. Anet, give me back my kitten heroes!
I don’t do fractals – too many elitist kittens. Won’t even go near it.
Open world, I have no issues jumping into the mobs for DEs. I have no issues running around aimlessly for hours randomly helping people, but generally speaking, I play alone. Or with my husband when he opts to play.
Even being among ‘like minded’ individuals, most still aren’t into my play style. I like ‘stopping to smell the roses.’ I like taking my time and killing everything, not just speeding to the end boss (partly why 9 months later I STILL aint killed Zaitahn). I stop to talk (cause I can’t play and type) which slows EVERYbody down. I stop to help people out. I wander off on random tangents (my husband hates this). I’m a very odd player, and my sense of humor is only shared by select few.
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
I don’t do dungeons (unless I absolutely have to) – too many kittens. I tried a few times…I really did. I was polite, I took suggestions, I asked questions, checked the wiki for guidance so I wasn’t completely without knowledge. Anet, give me back my kitten heroes!
I don’t do fractals – too many elitist kittens. Won’t even go near it.
Open world, I have no issues jumping into the mobs for DEs. I have no issues running around aimlessly for hours randomly helping people, but generally speaking, I play alone. Or with my husband when he opts to play.
Even being among ‘like minded’ individuals, most still aren’t into my play style. I like ‘stopping to smell the roses.’ I like taking my time and killing everything, not just speeding to the end boss (partly why 9 months later I STILL aint killed Zaitahn). I stop to talk (cause I can’t play and type) which slows EVERYbody down. I stop to help people out. I wander off on random tangents (my husband hates this). I’m a very odd player, and my sense of humor is only shared by select few.
The way i see it, you are advocating against a tool you don’t plan on using, and since you don’t do a lot of dungeons and tend to play by yourself it is likely not to effect you.
No offense, but this reminds me of people who are against gay-marriage because they think it will ruin the sanctity of hetero marriages, when it reality it wont effect them at all.
I got kicked from a party that I put together once cause the last guy I invite started pinging gear and asked everyone else to don the same. I didn’t have a full zerk set at the time and got booted. It’s @-holes likes this that make it so we can’t have nice things and why an inspect function is a bad idea. Let them have some bad runs with peeps who lied about their gear, it’s all they deserve for acting like effin pricks.
Be careful what you wish for, Anet might just give it to you “HoT”
“…let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die;.”
“…let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die;.”
(edited by Julie Yann.5379)
The way i see it, you are advocating against a tool you don’t plan on using, and since you don’t do a lot of dungeons and tend to play by yourself it is likely not to effect you.
No offense, but this reminds me of people who are against gay-marriage because they think it will ruin the sanctity of hetero marriages, when it reality it wont effect them at all.
Whether I personally use it or not, I do still have the right to express my opinion on the topic. Share my experience with previous similar tools, and offer thoughtful debate either for or against, so long as it is constructive and valid in its presentation. All of which I have done.
Just because I ‘may not’ use it, does not mean that it does not necessarily affect me. Like I said, I don’t generally do dungeons, but sometimes I ‘have’ to (MF for example). If I ever want to finish the Destiny’s Edge storyline, I will need to finish the story paths for each dungeon, which I do intend to do…otherwise the completionist in me would never rest.
Just because ‘it doesn’t affect you’ doesn’t mean you don’t have an opinion. Doesn’t mean you don’t have a right to that opinion. Gay marriage doesn’t affect me, but I say go for it. Gay people should have the right to be just as miserable/happy (cause it goes both ways) in marriage as straight couples are.
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
The way i see it, you are advocating against a tool you don’t plan on using, and since you don’t do a lot of dungeons and tend to play by yourself it is likely not to effect you.
No offense, but this reminds me of people who are against gay-marriage because they think it will ruin the sanctity of hetero marriages, when it reality it wont effect them at all.
Whether I personally use it or not, I do still have the right to express my opinion on the topic. Share my experience with previous similar tools, and offer thoughtful debate either for or against, so long as it is constructive and valid in its presentation. All of which I have done.
Just because I ‘may not’ use it, does not mean that it does not necessarily affect me. Like I said, I don’t generally do dungeons, but sometimes I ‘have’ to (MF for example). If I ever want to finish the Destiny’s Edge storyline, I will need to finish the story paths for each dungeon, which I do intend to do…otherwise the completionist in me would never rest.
Just because ‘it doesn’t affect you’ doesn’t mean you don’t have an opinion. Doesn’t mean you don’t have a right to that opinion. Gay marriage doesn’t affect me, but I say go for it. Gay people should have the right to be just as miserable/happy (cause it goes both ways) in marriage as straight couples are.
Now think about how you feel about people that are against Gay-marriage and their reasoning for it and maybe you might understand where i’m coming from.
I played SWTOR back before they added DPS parsing, and everyone was saying the exact same thing. “Don’t add DPS parsing, this game isn’t about the numbers! It would only give more tools to elitists!! It will ruin the community!!”
Well, they added DPS parsing anyway and the community didn’t suddenly turn toxic. The casuals continued to play with the casuals and the raiders used DPS parsing for in-depth theory crafting.
When people claim adding a tool will ruin a community, this is based on their experiences with an already crappy community (cough, WoW). These claims are based on negative associations with the worst of worst players, which also make up a minority of the overall player base. More importantly, claims about tools fostering a toxic community have no empirical backing and are only perpetuated by forum hear-say.
In no way does a debate on an inspect function in any way equate to a debate on gay marriage. It’s a false comparison.
Anything I post is just the opinion of a very vocal minority of 1.
I know, i was beaing sacrastics, engie is almost useless anyway but you are pushing the limit. HGH is pretty good in pvp have to admit. Now reroll zerker warrior and see the power.
Engie is far from useless (my only glass cannon toon is a flamethrower engie with 9 perma might stacks that turn to 20 when I enter combat),
plus, what’s the point of game having 8 classes if you’re offering everyone to have only 1?