Guild Wars 2

Astralporing.1957:

Aleaf.8174:

Merthax.5172:

Casca Longinus.3168:

once again, you want the reward without the work

Let’s say I invite a friend to play GW2 with me. How long should it take them to start a new character, get to maximum level, and get max stat gear? What is a realistic amount of time where they have “earned” it?

This is a game, which I play it for fun. Once it has devolved into work, I know it’s time to move on to something else. If it’s work, I want to get paid for it.

This is an RPG. RPGs are known to have some form of work to show off an achievement. This “work” is often called a grind. It’s the genre.

Nope. RPG’s – as their name tells you – are games that entertain you by letting you play a role. Preferably as different from the real life as possible. Crpg’s have often lot of grind only because they had originally problems in converting RPG experience into a computer game. Some people may think this is part of a genre, but in reality it is just an old flaw they are repeating without even remembering where it came from.
RPG’s are not about achievements. They are about roleplay.

Which is a moot argument anyway – there is not very much of roleplay in today’s MMO’s. MMORPGs are not RPG games, contrary to their name. They have lost the genre connection long ago.

There wasn’t much roleplay in traditional RPGs either. The progenitors of the genre itself barely featured dialogue, and featured heavily the aspect of “grinding”. Let’s look at Final Fantasy. No, not the overly-cinematic anime-culture ones these days. The original one. Who were you? A warrior of light. What were you supposed to do? Kill things until you’ve saved the world. And that was the role you played. To accomplish this, one would, out of necessity have to fight many enemies in order to increase one’s level, in order to fight bigger and badder monsters until you’ve accomplished all there is in the game. This is the traditional RPG at its very core. Interestingly enough, this sounds very dissimilar from the game you describe. Perhaps it is instead modern RPgs which lost the genre connection.

Aleaf.8174:

Mhyrria.4160:

Aleaf.8174:

Merthax.5172:

Casca Longinus.3168:

once again, you want the reward without the work

Let’s say I invite a friend to play GW2 with me. How long should it take them to start a new character, get to maximum level, and get max stat gear? What is a realistic amount of time where they have “earned” it?

This is a game, which I play it for fun. Once it has devolved into work, I know it’s time to move on to something else. If it’s work, I want to get paid for it.

This is an RPG. RPGs are known to have some form of work to show off an achievement. This “work” is often called a grind. It’s the genre.

No. Ever played Baldur’s Gate or Icewind Dale or any classic Black Isle games? Probably not. Those are RPGs and THEY NEVER MADE YOU GRIND. The best gears come from exploring, understanding the lore and dialogues, and killing a very hard boss. A boss that even if you grind (which is close to impossible since most dungeons dont respawn enemies), you are not gonna be able to kill it unless you use your brain. So, again, NO. The pinnacle of the RPG world are held by games without grind. The only work you do is working your brain to come up with a strategy to defeat bosses.

Did you ever have to level up for a certain boss to ensure you wont die? Ever need to completely search a dungeon from corner to corner to make sure you didn’t miss anything? Every kill a few mobs out of the way for that extra gold?

Congratulations, you’ve found the grind. Of course, in single player games you don’t need to implement a large grind (or time sink) since they have your money already.

No, I did not need to level up to kill a certain boss. The bosses are well placed in the story that when you meet them, your level was sufficient. Except for hidden bosses, that lore states are very powerful, and common sense dictates you cannot beat it unless you are at max level.

So fully exploring dungeons are a grind now huh?

Mobs barely drop gold, or anything for that matter. You kill them because sooner or later when a strong enemy appears, chances are that those mobs are gonna make the battle harder.

You havent played the games I mention, clearly. And yet you assume that those games have the grind.

Casca Longinus.3168:

once again, you want the reward without the work

“without the work”

without the work

Guild Wars 2 wasn’t supposed to be about work, it was supposed to be about fun.

Before release, ArenaNet spoke often about other MMOs that make players do repetitive work before they can get to the fun stuff. This ascended gear is turning Guild Wars 2 into one of those other MMOs.

Is it suddenly about work? When I log in and begin playing, is my fun automatically stifled from the looming Sword of Damocles of Ascended gear? I think not, and if that’s the case for you, you need to have a deep examination of your psychological processes.

Vermillion Hawk.9037:

Astralporing.1957:

Aleaf.8174:

Merthax.5172:

Casca Longinus.3168:

once again, you want the reward without the work

Let’s say I invite a friend to play GW2 with me. How long should it take them to start a new character, get to maximum level, and get max stat gear? What is a realistic amount of time where they have “earned” it?

This is a game, which I play it for fun. Once it has devolved into work, I know it’s time to move on to something else. If it’s work, I want to get paid for it.

This is an RPG. RPGs are known to have some form of work to show off an achievement. This “work” is often called a grind. It’s the genre.

Nope. RPG’s – as their name tells you – are games that entertain you by letting you play a role. Preferably as different from the real life as possible. Crpg’s have often lot of grind only because they had originally problems in converting RPG experience into a computer game. Some people may think this is part of a genre, but in reality it is just an old flaw they are repeating without even remembering where it came from.
RPG’s are not about achievements. They are about roleplay.

Which is a moot argument anyway – there is not very much of roleplay in today’s MMO’s. MMORPGs are not RPG games, contrary to their name. They have lost the genre connection long ago.

There wasn’t much roleplay in traditional RPGs either. The progenitors of the genre itself barely featured dialogue, and featured heavily the aspect of “grinding”.

That was what i referred to as the flaw in computer conversion. Original genre is a pen and paper game.

If you think that MMOs should be more like pen and paper games then you have serious issues in examination of feasibility.

Aleaf.8174:

TsukasaHiiragi.9730:

Aleaf.8174:

TsukasaHiiragi.9730:

Veltoss.9135:

They already said they’re adding more ascended gear with more ways to get it, including from dungeons and more fun ways as well.

source?

“Ascended and infusion rewards will be available in both PvE and WvW over time, and be made available through all sorts of content around the world including existing content.”

Source

Oh I read that already ~ its all smoke and mirrors without an solid information. I wouldn’t put too much into that.

And there it is. You’re CHOOSING too ignore what they have said.

When it comes down to it, you have two choices:

-Accept what the company says and let things go.
-Choose to disregard what they say and wage a crusade against the game.

Either way, what you have to say will not change anything. They’ve already released it. There hasn’t been a mass exodus. There has been no signs of disgruntled customers outside of constant complaints from emotionally attached gamers (which isn’t bad to some degree).

And if anyone has had any experience in customer service, you’d know people are more likely to complain about bad things then to appreciate the good.

Over time is the issue here, and the more horrifying thing is the idea that they could overhaul the previous dungeons by applying the same gating mechanisms which has resulted in 15 people failing to form even one group for FotM because they’re all on different levels.

The fractals have only been out a week or two and you already have Tyria being overrun by unopposed dynamic events due to empty zones, you have empty dungeons, and you have lion’s arch threatening to sink into the sea under the mass and frustration of people using a cumbersomely gated dungeon system where half the people queueing for the same place can’t find a group.

Vermillion Hawk.9037:

If you think that MMOs should be more like pen and paper games then you have serious issues in examination of feasibility.

Never said that, just protested to attributing to RPG genre core qualities it doesn’t posess.

Veltoss.9135:

TsukasaHiiragi.9730:

Aleaf.8174:

TsukasaHiiragi.9730:

Veltoss.9135:

They already said they’re adding more ascended gear with more ways to get it, including from dungeons and more fun ways as well.

source?

“Ascended and infusion rewards will be available in both PvE and WvW over time, and be made available through all sorts of content around the world including existing content.”

Source

Oh I read that already ~ its all smoke and mirrors without an solid information. I wouldn’t put too much into that.

How the kitten is that not solid when it comes straight from them? You people are just trying your best to have a reason to freak the kitten out and keep your conspiracy theories going.

Um..because look at all the other people saying the same thing, hundreds ~ if not thousands of players can’t be wrong..right?

More interesting – why weren’t the ‘other avenues’ they want to introduce already in the game when they introduced it?
My guess – they want to force people to run FotM so they can go ‘see how many enjoy FotM, here are some more’.

If other avenues existed the WvW’ers would still focus mainly on WvW, those who dislike dungeons would still do what they did, if it were in other dungeons as well as FotM people would run them as well – and so on.
Now they have to run FotM to get the gear or get out of the game. It helps enforcing a pattern with which they can justify continuing said pattern.

Actually, given the effort required to obtain them, dungeon and WvW top tier exotics should just be adjusted to ascended. I mean its just as much effort as that required to put together one ascended back or nab a single ring as it is to get one piece of that gear, sometimes more.

because if they did Ascended gear in the dungeons that where in the game b4 Lost Shores, then they couldn’t pigeon hole everyone into one place

And the grinders would be yelling FOUL cause someone could get something they have without x number of fractual runs

Aleaf.8174:

Snoring Sleepwalker.9073:

Aleaf.8174:

Snoring Sleepwalker.9073:

Why should we be expected to work in a game we play for enjoyment just to get to the fun parts ?

Especially of those of us who don’t have much time to play due to actual work and/or family ?

Because that’s what MMORPGs/RPGs are. You earn something nice and shiny. You aren’t given anything free.

That would be a fair response if we were talking about any other MMO. But for GW2 ANET promised us a different game, which is why so many people with less available time bought it.

So now we come to the question: Why must MMOs be like that ?
Why can’t ANET produce the game they promised ?

Let’s look at other video game launches and things they promised their community:

-When SW:TOR was launched they promised a game that would “revolutionize the MMORPG Model.”

All I hear about SW:TOR is incompetence and by stupid design choices. So it’s probably a very bad example.

-When Mists was launched, they promised a much more engaging and challenging gameplay for their clients

What did Blizzard give them ?

Remember, I don’t like gear treadmills, so I don’t pay attention to WoW

-When Diablo 3 was launched, they promised to bring everything that made Diablo 2 into D3.

What did all three of those games actually provide ?

How about you pick some examples across the industry as a whole, not just two big names, and detail their promises along with how they were broken. In fact, detail of how they were broken is probably the most important part of detailing a broken promise. So why did you leave that detail out ?

But that aside, why does MMOs have to be like that? Well for one thing not all MMOs aren’t. MMORPGs are (There’s a difference, especially from a gameplay perspective).

Fair enough. I’ll be more precise next time.

Now why are MMORPGs like that? Mostly cuz of the fact that RPGs are like that too.

GW1 wasn’t. So it’s clearly possible to make a successful RPG that isn’t like that.

Ever play a JRPG? How about Dark Souls? You don’t have things handed to you. You earn it.

I didn’t ask why MMORPGs are like that. I asked “Why must they be like that ?”
Or to reword it a bit: Why can’t MMORPG’s be made without grind ?

You didn’t even try to answer the question I asked.

Aleaf.8174:

Snoring Sleepwalker.9073:

Aleaf.8174:

Dead.7385:

Casca Longinus.3168:

once again, you want the reward without the work

WoW provided loot in a much better manner…..

WoW provided loot on a weekly basis at an RNG rate. I think I’d much rather grind for something that I know I will receive than grind a raid once a week and pray to the RNG Gods I get it.

At least GW2 isn’t putting daily limits on how often we can farm/run a dungeon.

Is a daily roll of the RNG for an Ascended ring significantly better ?

Once a week from 1 mob vs Multiple times a week against multiple mobs.

Yes. It is.

Even if the drop rate is worse so much that the average time to acquire it is longer in the multiple game that gives more rolls ?

Aleaf.8174:

Pretty sure grind is a traditional part of MMORPGs.

So what ?
Tradition doesn’t make an idea good or bad. It just makes it what everyone has always done.
If tradition is good, shouldn’t GW2 move to the traditional MMO business model: Subscription only.

Healix.5819:

One of the reasons for ascended gear was to forcibly slow down progression.

But why did they do that ?

GW1 managed to do very well with faster progression than GW2 had on launch. Then Factions came out and made progression faster while max stats remained the same.

Snoring Sleepwalker.9073:

All I hear about SW:TOR is incompetence and by stupid design choices. So it’s probably a very bad example.

SW:TOR did originally have some decent promise if the corporate didn’t push Bioware into using things they didn’t agree. They built SW:TOR on an incomplete game engine and spent most of their money on voice acting as opposed to actual gameplay. In addition, the game became a WoW clone in a Star Wars subpar universe.

What did Blizzard give them ?
Remember, I don’t like gear treadmills, so I don’t pay attention to WoW

Easy carebear content that can be cleared by 12 year old kids (aka my cousins).
It was quite a depressing notion. Blizzard had it good back in BC(considered the best raiding time by most of the WoW population). The only reason people despised it (most casuals at least) was the whole notion of being left behind and not being able to catch up because of the weekly lockouts (something GW2 doesn’t have).

How about you pick some examples across the industry as a whole, not just two big names, and detail their promises along with how they were broken. In fact, detail of how they were broken is probably the most important part of detailing a broken promise. So why did you leave that detail out ?

I chose those titles as they are the most recent games released to a large fanbase like GW2 was. In addition both are RPGs of some kind and have disappointment follow release due to change in original design/promises.

GW1 wasn’t. So it’s clearly possible to make a successful RPG that isn’t like that.

GW1 wasn’t even advertised as an MMO. It was advertised as a CORPG. MMORPGs generally have a persistent outside world inside the game. GW1 was mostly, if not entirely instanced.

I didn’t ask why MMORPGs are like that. I asked “Why must they be like that ?”
Or to reword it a bit: Why can’t MMORPG’s be made without grind ?

It’s like asking why are scary movies scary. It’s the way they are. If they removed the whole idea of progressing your character through a constantly changing and evolving world, it wouldn’t be an RPG, let alone an MMORPG.

Healix.5819:

One of the reasons for ascended gear was to forcibly slow down progression.

But why did they do that ?

GW1 managed to do very well with faster progression than GW2 had on launch. Then Factions came out and made progression faster while max stats remained the same.

If most content (Including content you thought would originally take a year) was completed in the span of 1 month, you would probably also have to take a sharp look at everything.

People had legendaries within a month. People were fully exotic in a month with most dungeons completed.

Progession to end game should not be that fast for an online game. Once everything is done, what is there to do?

They had to add things to slow down progression and keep players interested. This was what they came up with (which I find better than other possibilities).

TsukasaHiiragi.9730:

Veltoss.9135:

TsukasaHiiragi.9730:

Aleaf.8174:

TsukasaHiiragi.9730:

Veltoss.9135:

They already said they’re adding more ascended gear with more ways to get it, including from dungeons and more fun ways as well.

source?

“Ascended and infusion rewards will be available in both PvE and WvW over time, and be made available through all sorts of content around the world including existing content.”

Source

Oh I read that already ~ its all smoke and mirrors without an solid information. I wouldn’t put too much into that.

How the kitten is that not solid when it comes straight from them? You people are just trying your best to have a reason to freak the kitten out and keep your conspiracy theories going.

Um..because look at all the other people saying the same thing, hundreds ~ if not thousands of players can’t be wrong..right?

Holocaust, Armenian Genocide, Slavery. All those were wrong, yet the idea was perpetuated by thousands of people.

Oh and even if says 2,000 people complained, compared the a population of say 100,000 subscribers, 2% of the overall population complaining isn’t that bad. Hell 10% isn’t even that bad since most of the time games have 1/3 of the population whining anyways.

Why is it that people feel that 5-player instances of any kind are the appropriate place in GW2 to obtain top gear?

Is it because you find it more challenging or frustrating than open-world content? Provided that you aren’t in a particularly disorganized group and sorta know what you’re doing, grinding the instanced content in GW2 is achievable by even the casual player. That is compared to doing most cursed shores DE chains with a handful of players nowadays.

Besides, not everyone buys mmos to end up repeating 5-player instances over and over again. Why wouldn’t Ascended gear be available in WvWvW as well as regular (non-instanced) pve and through a variety of means including Karma?

matenzo.9518:

Why is it that people feel that 5-player instances of any kind are the appropriate place in GW2 to obtain top gear?

Is it because you find it more challenging or frustrating than open-world content? Provided that you aren’t in a particularly disorganized group and sorta know what you’re doing, grinding the instanced content in GW2 is achievable by even the casual player. That is compared to doing most cursed shores DE chains with a handful of players nowadays.

Besides, not everyone buys mmos to end up repeating 5-player instances over and over again. Why wouldn’t Ascended gear be available in WvWvW as well as regular (non-instanced) pve and through a variety of means including Karma?

For the third time this thread, they already announced they will add Ascended Gear through WvW and other means.

Aleaf.8174:

matenzo.9518:

Why is it that people feel that 5-player instances of any kind are the appropriate place in GW2 to obtain top gear?

Is it because you find it more challenging or frustrating than open-world content? Provided that you aren’t in a particularly disorganized group and sorta know what you’re doing, grinding the instanced content in GW2 is achievable by even the casual player. That is compared to doing most cursed shores DE chains with a handful of players nowadays.

Besides, not everyone buys mmos to end up repeating 5-player instances over and over again. Why wouldn’t Ascended gear be available in WvWvW as well as regular (non-instanced) pve and through a variety of means including Karma?

For the third time this thread, they already announced they will add Ascended Gear through WvW and other means.

Ya they said that, my estimation of the cost in WvW 5000 Honor tokens per piece

Arreyanne.2683:

Ya they said that, my estimation of the cost in WvW 5000 Honor tokens per piece

Still better than trying to find a group all your level and running that repetitive dungeon over & over.