Guild Wars 2

So, can I get an official answer? How it can brake game mechanic and etc. ?

Play to have fun!

But, if I think that to know my(only) DPS is fun?

I think it would be nice to have a dps meter and perhaps even a way to see the stats and dps of people in the party. This would be a great way to build reliable teams for endgame content. However, I can also see this as a problem for casual players because they may have some problems getting into good groups when their stats don’t meet party expectations.

As for a personal dps meter, we have the combat log which is about as close as we have to a dps meter atm. I personally dislike the jumbled mess of the combat log and would enjoy a better dps meter, even if it was only for personal dps.

For the same reason why you can’t inspect players, it is to prevent people from doing content by being judged by their ability.

I would love to use this

It would be so use full to test builds etc..

DPS meters and inspection lead to degenerate gameplay. 90% of players don’t actually follow the zerk meta and like to stay mr bad cleric guardian tank/healer that doesn’t exist except in their minds. Regardless of my opinion of this, they are a majority. Anet will want to make the game fun for the majority. Being kicked for low DPS or gear is not fun as essentially the community then decides what build you run rather than you.

Even if it was only personal DPS. Right now some groups ask to ping gear, they will find a way to get you to ping DPS too.

Either way, it doesn’t really matter for anyone but puggers. If you are in a dedicated PvE guild all of the people in your party are likeminded people whom you trust. No need for inspection or DPS check them. If the fight takes longer than normal its easily identifiable who’s fault it is with only 5 players. Same can be said for pugs. If you see a party member’s guardian engage a boss with a shield equipped and you are getting healed for alot more than normal and said guardian is hitting like a wet noodle you can quite easily determine he is not running meta and still kick him.

Those who say ‘it would be nice to find the perfect build’. There is no need, guilds like rT and DnT have already done these calculations for you. Don’t think that they somehow missed something and that you are gonna find the next big thing cuz of your DPS meter. The meta as it is now will stay like this forever bar some extremely significant changes.

I think Verificus is a wonderful (/end sarcasms) example of why we don’t have damage meters in this game.

Don’t we all love how he assumes that because someone chooses to use cleric gear. Or not follow the meta. That they are automatically bad. Doesn’t matter whether its true or not.

DPS meters, inspect, etc encourage that type of mentality, which is something we absolutely don’t want. Don’t get me wrong, I have nothing against personal DPS meters (like testing a build in Isle of the Nameless in GW1), but when most people think “dps meter” they think “group” and we absolutely don’t need that.

Because Marty would complain about how he is being excluded.
(I will now refer to the people who complain about zerker “elitism” as Marty because it helps keep me from writing angry rants about them)

Because they ARE bad. If you had even the slightest understanding of combat and boss mechanics in this game you would know that the Dungeons and Fractals were designed (intentionally) to support high damage builds (like zerk) more so than any other type of build. Part of being a good player is being able to notice these things and adapt to it accordingly. So while said Cleric guardian could have lightning fast reflexes to have all his blocks and blinds up whenever the group needs it, keeps himself alive by knowing every attack in any encounter and dodging at the right time and knows when to set up reflects or condition clear, he is still a bad player for being suboptimal towards the group. All what I mentioned above means nothing when it’s 4 zerkers and 1 cleric. Zerker doesn’t work anymore then. Being cleric would mean about a 15% total group DPS loss. This leads to the fight lasting unnessecarily long and will often result in people (the guardian in particular) to run out of blocks/dodges/blinds. Builds are designed to last exactly x amount of seconds in battle as x fight takes x amount of seconds to complete. That is why pugs usually fail. It’s not that they don’t dodge or act like idiots, it’s that one or several players aren’t zerk and causing the other players to run out of damage negation and since they are squishy, they go down fast. Leaving the Guardian still alive, falsely thinking that ‘these zerkers’ must be really bad players cuz ‘they are down and I am still alive!’. While it is in fact his fault that the party died. So yes, wearing cleric does mean that you are a bad player. Or if you want me to nuance it, it means you don’t give a kitten about teamwork and being useful to your party and would rather run something ‘fun’ and completely sub-optimal causing everyone to spend way more time than needed in that dungeon. You could be the best pvp’r in the world and possess high individual combat skills, but you are still bad.

Only people who do speed runs need it, so a stopwatch and a regular path would work.

1) In some instances they might actually be bad players, not necessarily.

2) Making a choice to be something other than zerker does not mean that they don’t know combat or boss mechanics.

3) There is more to the game than kittening dungeons and fractals, and even there everything is viable. Not optimal, true, but still viable.

4) The change in burn down time for many bosses would be negligible in your example. Not all, but there are exceptions to all things.

5) Choosing to be something other than zerk does not mean you are “not useful” to your party

I am deeply interested to hear will this tool result into ban or will ArenaNet make this option available in-game.

I really wish to use it, but its best to ask here first.

How a personal DPS meter segues to inspection? A DPS meter is just a personal tool to test and improve.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

1) In some instances they might actually be bad players, not necessarily.

2) Making a choice to be something other than zerker does not mean that they don’t know combat or boss mechanics.

3) There is more to the game than kittening dungeons and fractals, and even there everything is viable. Not optimal, true, but still viable.

4) The change in burn down time for many bosses would be negligible in your example. Not all, but there are exceptions to all things.

5) Choosing to be something other than zerk does not mean you are “not useful” to your party

1: You misunderstand my definiton of bad. With bad I mean anti-meta, inconsiderate of teamwork and the party. When I make groups I specifically state I want experienced people in zerker gear. People choose to ignore these wishes and join anyway. They are selfish, arrogant meta-haters that come in to try and prove a point and in the end we wipe or the dungeon takes twice as long as normal and then they rage at me and my party rather than admit their own shortcomings. That is a bad player IMO.
2: I’ll sum it up again. Knowledge of combat or boss mechanics is irrelevant when you join a 4 zerker party as a cleric. You WILL make the party wipe with the loss of DPS. Zerker builds are specifically designed to pack the absolute minimum amount of surival in favor of DPS. Even if the individual fights last only 10 seconds longer that is enough time to offset the delicate balance and all 4 zerkers can and will wipe in that 10 second window. Could a team exist with 5 cleric guardians and complete the dungeon? Yes, most certainely, but why the hell would you do that if it means the dungeon lasts an hour instead of 15 minutes. I don’t have oceans of free time. I need these dungeons to end quick.

3: Yes, there is more to it, but this topic is specifically about PvE. Ofcourse the other stat combinations are highly useful in WvW or Tequatl and other ventures. Viable and optimal are very far apart from eachother in this game. This is something I dislike too and I would rather see viable and most optimal be less than 10% difference of eachother as Zerker does tend to get boring eventually. It isn’t however so I adapt because I support being optimal.

4: It would not be negligible. I don’t really feel like doing calculations but you can find out yourself. Gw2dungeons lists all the boss’ armor and health of any dungeon and fractal in the game. Guilds like DnT and rT have accurately calculated DPS of each class for the meta build. Construct yourself a hypothetical 5 man max DPS build then remove one and add in a cleric build and see what happens to the kill times. Unless you consider my above example of 10 seconds per boss negligible I would say it’s quite a large impact on performance. E.g. a boss that normally lasts 30 seconds now lasting 40 seconds is a big deal.

5: It does if you join a party that wishes to finish the dungeon fast. Note that this is entirely different than speedclearing. People always think that all zerkers are speedclearers. I’ve never even attempted a speedclear. However my time is precious, there is alot of stuff to do in this game and also in my life outside the game. If I want to do all the easy and fast dungeon paths in 1 day for gold/mats whatever I’d be playing 12 hours or more if I were to join all those ‘fun and viable’ cleric pug runs. I don’t have time for that at all and make that clear in the party description when LFG. Instead all paths take me about 3-4 hours and then I can go do something else.

Verificus.4320:

1: You misunderstand my definiton of bad. With bad I mean anti-meta, inconsiderate of teamwork and the party. When I make groups I specifically state I want experienced people in zerker gear. People choose to ignore these wishes and join anyway. They are selfish, arrogant meta-haters that come in to try and prove a point and in the end we wipe or the dungeon takes twice as long as normal and then they rage at me and my party rather than admit their own shortcomings. That is a bad player IMO.

I can agree that someone that joins a party asking for ‘x’ that is not ‘x’ is a “bad” person. That’s a big issue, on both sides of the fence (because you have meta players that are just as bad joining the casual groups and being kittens). I will agree that type of person is in the wrong.

2: I’ll sum it up again. Knowledge of combat or boss mechanics is irrelevant when you join a 4 zerker party as a cleric. You WILL make the party wipe with the loss of DPS. Zerker builds are specifically designed to pack the absolute minimum amount of surival in favor of DPS. Even if the individual fights last only 10 seconds longer that is enough time to offset the delicate balance and all 4 zerkers can and will wipe in that 10 second window. Could a team exist with 5 cleric guardians and complete the dungeon? Yes, most certainely, but why the hell would you do that if it means the dungeon lasts an hour instead of 15 minutes. I don’t have oceans of free time. I need these dungeons to end quick.

Yes, zerker builds are designed for a specific purpose, with a specific amount of survivablity; however, you are incorrect in stating that having 1 non-zerker (cleric or otherwise) will cause a wipe. This is not necessarily true, as there have been many successful runs to prove otherwise. Yes, in certain instances it may contribute. Yes, on certain bosses it will be distinctly more obvious. However, in general, the dps loss is negligible.

3: Yes, there is more to it, but this topic is specifically about PvE. Ofcourse the other stat combinations are highly useful in WvW or Tequatl and other ventures. Viable and optimal are very far apart from eachother in this game. This is something I dislike too and I would rather see viable and most optimal be less than 10% difference of eachother as Zerker does tend to get boring eventually. It isn’t however so I adapt because I support being optimal.

Yes the topic is about pve, which is more than just dungeons and fractals. The discussion is pve in general. It is also not specifically about being “optimal.” Yes it would be nice if the zerker wasn’t quite so far ahead of the rest, but it’s better with the ferocity change.

4: It would not be negligible. I don’t really feel like doing calculations but you can find out yourself. Gw2dungeons lists all the boss’ armor and health of any dungeon and fractal in the game. Guilds like DnT and rT have accurately calculated DPS of each class for the meta build. Construct yourself a hypothetical 5 man max DPS build then remove one and add in a cleric build and see what happens to the kill times. Unless you consider my above example of 10 seconds per boss negligible I would say it’s quite a large impact on performance. E.g. a boss that normally lasts 30 seconds now lasting 40 seconds is a big deal.

In grand scheme of things 10 seconds is negligible. So the fight requires 1 extra dodge, big deal. It’s manageable. Like I’ve said, there have been plenty of pug speed clears where someone is not zerk and they make it through just fine. It refutes the point you’re trying to make.

5: It does if you join a party that wishes to finish the dungeon fast. Note that this is entirely different than speedclearing. People always think that all zerkers are speedclearers. I’ve never even attempted a speedclear. However my time is precious, there is alot of stuff to do in this game and also in my life outside the game. If I want to do all the easy and fast dungeon paths in 1 day for gold/mats whatever I’d be playing 12 hours or more if I were to join all those ‘fun and viable’ cleric pug runs. I don’t have time for that at all and make that clear in the party description when LFG. Instead all paths take me about 3-4 hours and then I can go do something else.

The argument of joining a group asking for ‘x’ when you are not ‘x’ was not the point of my point. You made a blanket statement that essentially anything non zerk is not being a team player, not helpful, etc. Which is patently untrue.

The issue of zerks trolling casual runs, or clerics trolling speed clears is a different topic, it’s own issue. Not specifically what was being discussed here.

People will use it to weed other people out in damage specific rolls. It may add a drama that other mmo’s have faced. Likewise, they would use the dps meter to determine who they want over who they need; just because player A is a few points lower in dps than player B, doesn’t necessarily mean that player B is better…

I think a dps meter in a selected area of hotm would be nice. As well as a meter that measured your toughness – vitality – survival rate in a given scenario or attack (a thieves 6k heartseeker for example)

A high dps shouldn’t govern anything, instead used as a comparison tool for that user only; to compare his current build’s damage to his last build’s damage.

Verificus.4320:

This is something I dislike too and I would rather see viable and most optimal be less than 10% difference of eachother

If you’re going to make the gear basically the same in output why not go whole hog and eliminate gear stats from the game? I mean, you’re talking about 10% as if that was some happy compromise. It’s just your arbitrary feeling. If the different functionality of different stats is the problem the solution isn’t to water the system down its to eliminate the system.

But wait: the stats aren’t the problem because there is no problem.

as Zerker does tend to get boring eventually.

I don’t know what this means. How does a stat set “get boring”? That’s like saying five dollar bills are boring so this week I’m going to spend one dollar bills only. Stat sets, regardless of the type, confer passive bonuses. Key word: passive. As in they don’t change how you do anything. You’re bored of meleeing in zerker, so how is meleeing in celestial not boring? You’re going to have to range bosses because typical YOLO melee strats “won’t work” in tanky gear (I disagree but for the sake of this lets go with it). You can range the boss in zerker too. It will be equally as exciting as ranging in Clerics because -bringing it all home- gear stats are passive and don’t change what you are doing.

hybrid.5027:

Verificus.4320:

This is something I dislike too and I would rather see viable and most optimal be less than 10% difference of eachother

If you’re going to make the gear basically the same in output why not go whole hog and eliminate gear stats from the game? I mean, you’re talking about 10% as if that was some happy compromise. It’s just your arbitrary feeling. If the different functionality of different stats is the problem the solution isn’t to water the system down its to eliminate the system.

But wait: the stats aren’t the problem because there is no problem.

as Zerker does tend to get boring eventually.

I don’t know what this means. How does a stat set “get boring”? That’s like saying five dollar bills are boring so this week I’m going to spend one dollar bills only. Stat sets, regardless of the type, confer passive bonuses. Key word: passive. As in they don’t change how you do anything. You’re bored of meleeing in zerker, so how is meleeing in celestial not boring? You’re going to have to range bosses because typical YOLO melee strats “won’t work” in tanky gear (I disagree but for the sake of this lets go with it). You can range the boss in zerker too. It will be equally as exciting as ranging in Clerics because -bringing it all home- gear stats are passive and don’t change what you are doing.

I have preached many times before that I’d like to see stats removed from the game or at the very least the sPvP system implemented in PvE..
And I suppose you are right. It is the system. Even with a 10% difference I’d probably still gravitate towards Zerk. So I don’t like the system..

It is a playstyle, not a stat set. Zerker encompasses a whole playstyle that I find increasingly annoying and borning. One could also just call it GW2 PvE but I call it zerker as to indicate why I dislike GW2 PvE. A.k.a. the glass canon type playstyle. I’m an old school MMO’r and I’m not at all happy with all this new innovative crap. I like tanks and healers. I’ve played a healer in WoW for years and in my personal opinion skill plays a far greater role in being a healer in WoW then skill plays a role in pretty much any area of GW2 PvE. Part of the fun of this game is constructing builds. Theorycrafting. At least to me it is. I can spend hours making different builds the only problem is if I ever want to be viable I am forced to run Zerker anyway.

The way you can tweak your build in WvW is how I’d like to be able to in PvE. E.g. you can tweak your build in WvW in such a way that you can build to be able to survive certain attacks of certain classes if you assume they run the class’ meta build. Especially if you do alot of roaming and obsidium sanctum trolling there is alot of fun to be found in building your character rather than just playing it. This aspect is missing from GW2 PvE. I also personally don’t have any problem in passive effects from stats being more important in this game. Those things are quite important in WoW too and still you can very easily see the vast difference in skill between a raid member of a server 1st guild or just some random pug.. Example of this would be how top guilds complete the raids in record times in very low tier gear and only start gearing up once they win the server 1st race and have the time to focus on improving gear level. While you also have groups that grind the absolute best gear and still can’t progress through heroic in time before the next raid is released. That is due to lack of player skill, coordination and organization. So important passive mitigation/stats w/e can be very important without removing the concept of skill.

I would love to run an auramancer build and be very useful in dungeons. I like the flashy glowy aura’s and constantly sharing boons seems like a fun thing to do in my opinion. Even if I were to run a zerker auramancer I’d be extremely suboptimal becuz of 1: persisting flames and 2: aura’s being totally useless becuz giving protection, regen and stuff like that to you party does nothing in PvE when running with coordinated groups.

And this is just the gameplay part. Don’t even get me started on boss mechanics and encounter design, there is even more to improve in that area.

Verificus.4320:

I’m an old school MMO’r and I’m not at all happy with all this new innovative crap. I like tanks and healers. I’ve played a healer in WoW for years and in my personal opinion skill plays a far greater role in being a healer in WoW

Thanks for admitting what so many PHIW’ers won’t. You want a trinity game. Sorry bud, this isnt a trinity game, wasnt advertised as a trinity game and was sold to you as an action based combat game. Stop trying to ruin our action combat game and go back to wow, and I mean that in the niceest way possible.

Can we please get back on the topic? Just in case you forgot:

Deathmond.7328:

But, if I think that to know my(only) DPS is fun?

Because 90% of the points here are void as soon as the tool shows personal DPS only.

Verificus.4320:

Even if it was only personal DPS. Right now some groups ask to ping gear, they will find a way to get you to ping DPS too.

May I ask how? Linking Imgur links so you’ll have to type 4 web links into your browser to look at some (possible) photoshopped pictures? Gear check is common because Anet made it possible. The whole idea of having personal DPS-Meters is NOT to do that.

In my opinion it is. It is for when situation are unsure wether or not a specific player is messing up DPS and you want to know who it is. As I said, all the calculations have been made without the use of a DPS meter so the optimal gear/rune/sigil set-up and the best possible comps per fight are already known. It will only be used as a griefing tool as a guild like DnT would have no need for a DPS meter telling them what they have already found out themselves. As to how to ping DPS. All DPS calculators in most game have a way to /post a log in party chat in which you can display DPS for all to see. They could remove this option ofcourse but then is it not just a glorified combat log? The combat log already tells you enough information personally. You can add up all the damage numbers when fight starts till fight ends and calculate based on boss HP and toughness to get a DPS number that should be accurate with maybe a max 5% deviation. The only thing that would be added is a tool that makes this calculation for you and displays the number which is little more than a quality of life update for the combat log. Which, as you say makes 90% of the points discussed here irrelevant for the discussion.

@Hybrid
I’d think you’d be surprised how many people are left in the competitive MMO scene that DO want some form of a trinty. I don’t necessarily want WoW’s system but a complete void of a trinity is also not what I want. I will not go back to WoW however as there are many other aspects of gameplay that GW2 innovated on that I do like and I could not bear to play such an outdated game as wow anymore. I always check out the expansion for the story but I can’t really play it for more than a week.

A personal DPS meter I think would be fine, in the sense that it doesn’t affect anyone but yourself. Though I wouldn’t personally use that.

One of the things I absolutely love about this game is that you cannot inspect gear/stats or measure DPS from other players. I believe this leads to a bad community as people get more obsessed about having to be this or that. No one should tell you how to play. Ultimately, what you play and how you play is no one’s business but your own and every player shouldn’t be forced to being an open book all the time, even when it doesn’t apply. This is what bothers me about games like WoW, where you can freely inspect anyone at any time and even have an online armory for easier stalking.

On a side note, if your group is doing a particular activity and you are asked to have a particular build for chance of greater success then you are volunteering to adjust your play style to the ultimate goal. I think that is fine and a separate thing altogether.

Yay, certain guilds and individuals have made all the calculations for us. All the best builds have been discovered! Praise them; now we don’t have to think ourself.
…
And meanwhile we go make the 15422th thread about lacking build diversity in PvE. \sarcasm

See the connection? If not, just think about the time where everyone said 100b dps best dps. Where people were laught at when they said staff ele deals decent damage. When they said guardians and engineers deal more damage than warriors.
And there are still many people who think so. Not on the forums, but only a small percentage of the playerbase visites the forum.

This dps tool is not about framing people. It’s about education. I dont want to be able to know your dps. I want you to be able to know your dps.

I don’t want to put out a calculator or a spreadsheet everytime I try something new. Well, I could, but what about those who cannot? Not everyone is well educated in math.

This way not only rumors like the above mentioned would die out faster, it would also give players a tool to evaluate themself leading to a deeper game experience. And if you dislike it, you can choose to turn it of, the same way you can choose to not join your average 17k AP+ ZERK ONLY EXP dungeon group.

EDIT: Yes, basicly a QoL patch for the combat log. Have you ever tried to calculate dps with the combat log? If yes, you may understand the cry for a QoL patch. Because it’s just no fun.

0% care about wasting the devs time with something like this.

Molch.2078:

Yay, certain guilds and individuals have made all the calculations for us. All the best builds have been discovered! Praise them; now we don’t have to think ourself.
…
And meanwhile we go make the 15422th thread about lacking build diversity in PvE. \sarcasm

See the connection? If not, just think about the time where everyone said 100b dps best dps. Where people were laught at when they said staff ele deals decent damage. When they said guardians and engineers deal more damage than warriors.
And there are still many people who think so. Not on the forums, but only a small percentage of the playerbase visites the forum.

This dps tool is not about framing people. It’s about education. I dont want to be able to know your dps. I want you to be able to know your dps.

I don’t want to put out a calculator or a spreadsheet everytime I try something new. Well, I could, but what about those who cannot? Not everyone is well educated in math.

This way not only rumors like the above mentioned would die out faster, it would also give players a tool to evaluate themself leading to a deeper game experience. And if you dislike it, you can choose to turn it of, the same way you can choose to not join your average 17k AP+ ZERK ONLY EXP dungeon group.

EDIT: Yes, basicly a QoL patch for the combat log. Have you ever tried to calculate dps with the combat log? If yes, you may understand the cry for a QoL patch. Because it’s just no fun.

You name examples of GW2’s past that have long since been debunked because we now know alot more about the game. No one today thinks 100b is max DPS and math proves it. I don’t understand why you people keep ignoring math. It’s like insisting grass is blue instead of green. It makes no sense to me. There are no more secrets in GW2 everything is known and has been calculated. Build diversity lacks because of encounter and gameplay design. Not because DnT has made calculations that tell us ‘run zerk!’. There is always a meta. How diverse that meta is depends on math, numbers. If multiple options produce similar mathematical results then there is build diversity. If one option vastly outperforms the other then there is no build diversity. It’s really simple.

Your argument doesn’t make sense to begin with. You say ‘I want YOU to know your DPS’. Whats the difference between the game telling you or DnT’s calculations telling you? You learn nothing from both. Both don’t tell you why or how something is best. You will have to find out that information yourself or read the non-abridged version of all that data, something a simple DPS meter will not provide. You want players to see with their own eyes that when they do x weapon chain vs y weapon chain that one is superior rather than reading it. It saves them gold and resources if they are just outright told rather than experimenting with it. Especially newer players who don’t have hordes of gold, it is especially important to make the so called ‘right’ choice because if they buy super sub-optimal gear they will be stuck with it for quite a while and subsequently kicked from groups.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I think Verificus is a wonderful (/end sarcasms) example of why we don’t have damage meters in this game.

Don’t we all love how he assumes that because someone chooses to use cleric gear. Or not follow the meta. That they are automatically bad. Doesn’t matter whether its true or not.

DPS meters, inspect, etc encourage that type of mentality, which is something we absolutely don’t want. Don’t get me wrong, I have nothing against personal DPS meters (like testing a build in Isle of the Nameless in GW1), but when most people think “dps meter” they think “group” and we absolutely don’t need that.

Because they are bad… They actively ignore the reality that they are inefficient and playing a weaker build just because they want to play the way they want. Not only are they bad, they are selfish and shouldn’t be joining parties with people. If you want to run a kitten build and waste your own time that is fine, but don’t drag other people down with you.

if you want to see boring numbers go and play with your calculator

Don’t get me wrong though. I would LOVE to play how I like and be optimal. My posts above display my disconent with the games gameplay mechanics and encounter design. However I try to balance that with what is meta. In HS for example, I run meta decks but my own twists on them. There is only 1 meta here though so zerk it up!

Dinks.2478:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I think Verificus is a wonderful (/end sarcasms) example of why we don’t have damage meters in this game.

Don’t we all love how he assumes that because someone chooses to use cleric gear. Or not follow the meta. That they are automatically bad. Doesn’t matter whether its true or not.

DPS meters, inspect, etc encourage that type of mentality, which is something we absolutely don’t want. Don’t get me wrong, I have nothing against personal DPS meters (like testing a build in Isle of the Nameless in GW1), but when most people think “dps meter” they think “group” and we absolutely don’t need that.

Because they are bad… They actively ignore the reality that they are inefficient and playing a weaker build just because they want to play the way they want. Not only are they bad, they are selfish and shouldn’t be joining parties with people. If you want to run a kitten build and waste your own time that is fine, but don’t drag other people down with you.

That doesn’t make them bad players. They could be very good players choosing to play in a different manner, for an assortment of reasons. (Maybe they got tired of facerolling foes with zerk gear. Some people find that boring)

Ok, if they join an a group asking for all zerks, I can see them being selfish and trolly in that scenario. Sure, their wrong in that instance. However, conversely there is nothing wrong in joining an ‘all welcome’ group.

DPS meters would only be borderline usefull to people who do extreme speedclears, all other wannabees should just say no. There is no need.

If you’d be using the
-wisest of setups,
-and food/
-full buffs/
-perfect reflects/
-dedicated dungeons weapons. (yes different GS’s for all dungeons, ore whatever dungeon you roll, 2 differnt ones for paths in COE and SE, if I’m right. People in a speedclear guild I knew had 9 ascended GS’s on 1 character. some with night and type some with force and type. It’s probably very usefull…. I can imagine getting 21% free dmg from you (G)sword outweighs fire and bloodlust.)
-optimize swapping ,
-continiously use speedboosts,
-have noone slack off due to full inventories and stuff ( AND you shouldn’t take the box anyways as it costs time in a speedrun, but wait weren’t we doing a run for the drops? NO! just for speed not even cash, pressing F can take a couple of seconds if you are not in the right place if you kill your boss… and might have you standing wrong)
- turn of the phones when doing speedruns, or throw your mobile phone in the toilet or give it to a friendly neighbourhood hobo… sell the dog give, your wife away…
On and on….
If you do all this and know your path: You’d be very fast.

Else do not bother with dps meters…. When you look at the meter instead of Alpha
(example) you die, then you do 0 dps and wreck peoples run…. showing you are not in the league for a DPS meter, and not for a speedrun…

If you do know how to do speedruns, you will not need a dps meter as well: as it’s a waste of computer power and attention you should focus on the game, your roulation of skills… Your utilities, all…things important…

Conclusion DPS meters are useless, is the final conclusion.

(note: Of course not everyone is using GS’s but he was rolling warrior.)

You don’t seem to understand. The choice they make completely invalidates their skill as a player. Their choice makes them bad. When they make the choice they stop being ‘very good players’.

Like we don’t have enough elitists.

Because it makes people play to DPS rather than to any other metric, and that leads to bad play and bad player behavior.

Verificus.4320:

You don’t seem to understand. The choice they make completely invalidates their skill as a player. Their choice makes them kittenoon as they make the choice they stop being ‘very good players’.

Choice invalidates skill?

Well that’s a first. So the people that can (and have) completed the dungeons naked are not skilled players. Gotcha. Because they made a choice to not use zerk gear to do it.

Edit: You know, that could be flipped on you just as easily. The choice to run zerk negates skill. You could look at from the perspective that you need to run a gimmick in order to be successful.

Except it’s not a gimmick, it’s meta. It’s the best way to play.

Verificus.4320:

Except it’s not a gimmick, it’s meta. It’s the best way to play.

chuckle

Gimmick. Meta. Same kitten thing. ‘Meta’ is just a nicer word for it is. Perhaps you would prefer cookie cutter instead?

Verificus.4320:

Except it’s not a gimmick, it’s meta. It’s the best way to play.

I don’t think that word means what you think it means.

why all the need to be the highest dps in the world and why talk about liberals and that gun no sense

well i cant understand elitist , they are too elite for me

Verificus.4320:

Because they ARE bad. If you had even the slightest understanding of combat and boss mechanics in this game you would know that the Dungeons and Fractals were designed (intentionally) to support high damage builds (like zerk) more so than any other type of build.

~Snip~.

How do you know what the design intentions where behind Fractals and Dungeons, do you work for A.net, are you on the Dev team…did you participate in the testing on those designs before they went live? If you can answer yes to any of those then I’d believe you, but since you probably can’t, and I can answer yes to one of them I can factually state it wasn’t the intentional design of A.net to make Fractals and Dungeons easier to do with max dps…the original intent was for the entire dungeon/fractal to be cleared, not speed clears, that was a design error which they chose not to correct.

As for the OP, A.net has stated many times that 3rd party programs are against the ToS, and that goes for personal DPS meters.

You guys are steering off course. The point is that people who don’t play meta are bad and should only play with people who are also bad and against meta build. Don’t come near us, don’t join our games if we advertise zerk exp, go play how you want in your own instances. Or make a LFG saying: no zerk all welcome something like that. But don’t try to argue that meta isn’t the best and most optimal way to play. There are no valid arguments to be made, you cannot dispute math and numbers.

@ Zaklex

You can easily see the intended design by analzying the encounter mechanics and overall gameplay. Only one conclusion can be made and I bet if you’d ask an Anet dev they would also agree Zerk is meta and is closest to their philosophy of ‘everyone can heal and cc, deal dmg and individual skill matters most’ Go for as low defense as your skill allows so you can go as high DPS as possible. That is the intended design.

They are bad for speed clearing dungeons, that is all.

Verificus.4320:

I’ve played a healer in WoW for years and in my personal opinion skill plays a far greater role in being a healer in WoW then skill plays a role in pretty much any area of GW2 PvE.

- snip -

I also played a healer in WoW. You’re comparing apples to oranges. The skills required in WoW, overlap, but are not the same as those required in GW2.

WoW/Trinity MMO’S

• Tracking a large numbers of skills
• Timing skill use properly
• Primary attention on health bars or raid frames (as a healer)
• Minor amounts of situational awareness
• Repositioning to get out of red circles or because the encounter mechanics call for it
• Minor emphasis on twitch reflexes
• Knowing encounter mechanics

GW2

• Track fewer skills
• Timing skill use properly
• Primary attention on the encounter, not the UI, thus greater situational awareness
• Minor build tweaking from encounter to encounter
• Large emphasis on twitch reflexes
• Repositioning consists of maintaining buff distances while avoiding some AoE
• Knowing encounter mechanics

Personally, I find both present about the same challenge, but executing in GW2 to be way more fun. You, fairly obviously, feel the opposite. You disdain GW2. I’m trying hard to stop disdaining WoW, but it’s hard.

In the traditional MMO, there is a heavy emphasis on having the right (or better) numbers on your gear for the content. This is imposed by the game. In GW2 the emphasis on having the “right” gear is imposed by players. But of course, stats on gear are not representative of skill, just preparation.

Two things to remember: complex encounter mechanics do not have to depend on there being a tank/healer; and in GW2, gear complements build, it is not a primary characteristic of build.

Verificus.4320:

You guys are steering off course. The point is that people who don’t play meta are bad and should only play with people who are also bad and against meta build. Don’t come near us, don’t join our games if we advertise zerk exp, go play how you want in your own instances. Or make a LFG saying: no zerk all welcome something like that. But don’t try to argue that meta isn’t the best and most optimal way to play. There are no valid arguments to be made, you cannot dispute math and numbers.

1) Just because people choose to play differently does not make them bad players. Choice does not negate skill, period.

2) You don’t want non-zerks to join your all zerk groups. That’s fine. I’ve agreed with that general topic as well.

3) We aren’t arguing that zerk isn’t the best dps, or the most optimal armor. In fact I have agreed on that point too.

I will argue that the meta might not be the best for the game as a whole. Health wise,but that’s neither here nor there. The point still stands that simply choosing not to play a cookie cutter build doesn’t make you a bad player. Conversely, choosing to play the meta / cookie cutter / gimmick doesn’t make you good either.

If the combat log we have now was down to the second, it would give us the option of figuring out DPS ourselves.

The only time ever where a glass cannon would die because someone else is tankier is probably CM with the rifle men as they deliberately pick the easiest to kill target and that’s when you are yoloing the dungeon and running around like headless chickens AAing everything. In no other situation should power builds die because someone else has more survivability.

I do not die when I run full offense when someone else is tanky in anything outside CM when the above example is present.

Verificus.4320:

Except it’s not a gimmick, it’s meta. It’s the best way to play.

It’s still not skill. Have seen many speedrunners that are very good at doing speed runs, that actually lack personal skills. When forced out of their comfort zone, they show up that they are unable to play well. Meta is a gimmick that lets them remain unskilled.
Also, it’s those people that do step out of meta that created it the first time. And that will create it again if the situation changes and the old ways become obsolete.

Lets try again. By allowing a dps meter they’re at the very least tacitly saying that DPS is something that should be recorded and judged.

It opens a massive can of worms for CS and negative player behavior. You don’t give players more tools to be kittens to each other with.

“performance meters” can be used correctly, our challenge at the moment is because of well, I think I’ve stated this numerous times, is that the community culture would not be receptive to it currently largely due to how it has formed with the selection of content available and how it is balanced.

If you gave performance meters to say the dark souls community, they would probably used it responsibly.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Verificus.4320:

I’ve played a healer in WoW for years and in my personal opinion skill plays a far greater role in being a healer in WoW then skill plays a role in pretty much any area of GW2 PvE.

- snip -

I also played a healer in WoW. You’re comparing apples to oranges. The skills required in WoW, overlap, but are not the same as those required in GW2.

WoW/Trinity MMO’S

• Tracking a large numbers of skills
• Timing skill use properly
• Primary attention on health bars or raid frames (as a healer)
• Minor amounts of situational awareness
• Repositioning to get out of red circles or because the encounter mechanics call for it
• Minor emphasis on twitch reflexes
• Knowing encounter mechanics

GW2

• Track fewer skills
• Timing skill use properly
• Primary attention on the encounter, not the UI, thus greater situational awareness
• Minor build tweaking from encounter to encounter
• Large emphasis on twitch reflexes
• Repositioning consists of maintaining buff distances while avoiding some AoE
• Knowing encounter mechanics

Personally, I find both present about the same challenge, but executing in GW2 to be way more fun. You, fairly obviously, feel the opposite. You disdain GW2. I’m trying hard to stop disdaining WoW, but it’s hard.

In the traditional MMO, there is a heavy emphasis on having the right (or better) numbers on your gear for the content. This is imposed by the game. In GW2 the emphasis on having the “right” gear is imposed by players. But of course, stats on gear are not representative of skill, just preparation.

Two things to remember: complex encounter mechanics do not have to depend on there being a tank/healer; and in GW2, gear complements build, it is not a primary characteristic of build.

Well that is your opinion ofcourse. I suppose it’s 50/50 on this matter. For me I find this game easier at the highest level than WoW. You misunderstand my point too. In an ideal world the best of both MMO’s would shake hands in a new game. There is aspects of both MMO’s that I prefer over the other. Thought, neither are completely what I desire.

Also, To say that in this game having the right gear is imposed by the players is false. It IS imposed by the game. You will agree with me when I say that least amount of deaths combined with highest DPS uptime (and total DPS) leads to the fastest possible clear of a dungeon, the fastest way to aquire your reward and gold and allows for the most amount of content to be completed in a single day. Thus, any player that has a limited amount of time to play (which is nearly everyone, wether you hardcore it or not you have limits) will receive more rewards, gold and completion when using the ‘meta’. If this is the case then for all intents and purposes, the game dictates meta, not the player. As no one loves to have less rewards, less gold and less completion. The problem is that people cannot accept that certain ways will not get them that. They want THEIR way to give them the best results. I get that, I to wish my preference would get me the best results. The reality is different however, not imposed by myself, other players but by facts based on the game’s design.

@Shadowflame

Let’s both stop arguing about point 1. I feel differently then you do and I decide who enters my games and who doesn’t so I can enforce my beliefs. As can you in your games.
I will agree though that playing meta can still mean you are bad. Vice versa, not so much though, but again, my opinion. Based on facts. But I suppose different interpretations of facts are possible.

As to wether or not a meta is healthy for the game. I suppose its not. But this is more of a philosophical discussion. I would argue meta will be unavoidable in any game. By default there always is a meta. It makes a gaming community toxic yes but that is more an inherent flaw in humanity. As such, from now until forever, if games are released, meta’s will be present and people will kitten and argue about it.

@Windsagio
I agree on this. I do not see the need for DPS meters. As a competitive PvE’r, the calculations top guilds have made are enough information for me to attempt perfect play and character building in PvE. For anyone who does not play competitive PvE how much DPS you do and being judged on it is toxic and irrelevant and will only cause more griefing. Maybe someone should design a total that copies your combat log into a spreadsheet of some sorts with a database of all GW2’s enemies and allows for perfect calculation of DPS. For those that really want to know all the ins and outs for every possible build variation.