Guild Wars 2

DPS groups thrive by conditions and buffs, maximizing DPS mean you are not contributing to the party in keeping people alive. It just means you want to press buttons for damage. Dps is negatively affected by protection, regn, aegis, and often blinds, weakness and so on. Sometimes there are synergies of course…

Verificus.4320:

1: You misunderstand my definiton of bad. With bad I mean anti-meta, inconsiderate of teamwork and the party. When I make groups I specifically state I want experienced people in zerker gear. People choose to ignore these wishes and join anyway. They are selfish, arrogant meta-haters that come in to try and prove a point and in the end we wipe or the dungeon takes twice as long as normal and then they rage at me and my party rather than admit their own shortcomings. That is a bad player IMO.

The key portion of this being “IMO.” I dispute your assertion that anti-meta is bad in Guild Wars 2. If we were talking WoW I would agree with you, but I have yet to encounter a boss in this game that provides a challenging DPS race. I contend that anti-meta is a just different playstyle, but let’s not even argue about it. We’ll consider a world where your claim is valid and the meta is the only “correct” way to play this game.

By “inconsiderate of teamwork,” you really mean, “not wanting to get through the content as quickly as possible in order to satisfy your team mate — specifically, me.” Your requirements are not sustainable. I saw how this played out in WoW’s Cataclysm expansion. No one can play forever. If everyone demanded only experienced players in their group then inexperienced players would be unable to ever gain experience. Eventually you’ll be unable to find a group to satisfy your criteria in LFG. Ironically, when that day comes you’ll likely come back to these forums to complain about how the good players have all left the game. Instead of realizing that this elitist policy of demanding all experienced players all the time effectively starved the game of up and coming competent players, you’ll claim that the lack of challenge drove off anyone who was “good.”

Back when I started playing video games we didn’t treat them like a job that had to be completed as quickly as possible so that we could move on with the rest of our evenings. They were journeys to be enjoyed. If we replayed them it was to marvel at the graphics and/or discover aspects of the environment that had gone unnoticed before. I would argue that the selfish players are the ones demanding that everyone else abandon everything that makes a video game truly enjoyable and rush through everything so that the pros can continue to treat this game like a job.

Bernie.8674:

Verificus.4320:

1: You misunderstand my definiton of bad. With bad I mean anti-meta, inconsiderate of teamwork and the party. When I make groups I specifically state I want experienced people in zerker gear. People choose to ignore these wishes and join anyway. They are selfish, arrogant meta-haters that come in to try and prove a point and in the end we wipe or the dungeon takes twice as long as normal and then they rage at me and my party rather than admit their own shortcomings. That is a bad player IMO.

Snip..

I’m not saying only correct way to play in general. As I said, anyone is welcome to make their own parties and play how they like. They have the freedom to do so. I’m just saying don’t contaminate my LFG advertisements with it. Don’t join if you don’t meet the requirements.

Yes, that IS what I mean. At the end of the day all it comes down to when playing in pugs, with people you know nothing of, is that they reliably get you from point a to b in the fastest way possible. When I LFG i’m not looking for new friends, i’m looking for performance because it might be late at night and my guildies have gone to bed. I only PuG if I cannot get a team together with friends and guildies.
Also, the rest of you argument makes no sense. I meet lots of new players who have played other games on a competitive level and wish to know what is meta in GW2 right when they start playing. I am happy to teach these people the game and explain why the meta is the meta. Then it’s their choice if they wanna abide the meta and join me and my friends’ runs. I don’t think less of them as a person if they don’t and are PHIW but I will think less of them as a player valuable or useful to the team. Luckily there are a myriad of other areas in the game where we can play together. It’s a matter of attitude. Wether it’s a game or not, a positive attitude IMO is to always seek to better and improve yourself. There are always people who view games more as a form of escapism and aren’t even slightly concerned with being optimal but I would argue those are few. No matter how ‘casual’ you are, everyone likes being the overpowered hero in any game. So most people gravitate towards meta becuz meta often best encompasses this feeling of overpoweredness. I’m not saying in all cases but in most cases. The small group of people that whine and hate on the meta and rage here are people who are just upset their cleric mace/shield build isn’t one-shotting the bosses like all the zerkers are. They try to desperately find a way to disprove all the math and calculations because they cannot deal with the fact that their already is a proven meta and that this meta is not how they envisioned it would be. This is common in alot of games.

As for your last comment, do understand that this game is 2,5 years old and we have been playing the same dungeons and fractals over and over again and I’m pretty much done marveling, discovering and what not. I play mostly for my guild, social aspect and the story. All the other stuff does feel like a job as I need gold to cover for my in game expenses and I need mats to craft the stuff I want. So yes, I want to complete the incredibly boring and repetitive content we’ve had for, literally, years and go do something else like a new story episode or something else new or fun ASAP. I only want the rewards.

@Pax

That’s exactly the point though. This game allows you to do all that while still keeping up maximum DPS. Because of traits, skills knowing mechanics and coordination. Because you can pretty much completely go from full support to full DPS just by switching a few traits there is no reason to ever take off the zerker armor and by definition this means that the ultimate goal is to deal as much DPS as possible. Even when you are doing your block/blind rotation on your guard the only reason for that is to get a bit of extra seconds of DPS uptime so players don’t have to dodge and the boss can be downed ASAP.

Verificus.4320:

Also, To say that in this game having the right gear is imposed by the players is false. It IS imposed by the game. You will agree with me when I say that least amount of deaths combined with highest DPS uptime (and total DPS) leads to the fastest possible clear of a dungeon, the fastest way to aquire your reward and gold and allows for the most amount of content to be completed in a single day. Thus, any player that has a limited amount of time to play (which is nearly everyone, wether you hardcore it or not you have limits) will receive more rewards, gold and completion when using the ‘meta’. If this is the case then for all intents and purposes, the game dictates meta, not the player. As no one loves to have less rewards, less gold and less completion. The problem is that people cannot accept that certain ways will not get them that. They want THEIR way to give them the best results. I get that, I to wish my preference would get me the best results. The reality is different however, not imposed by myself, other players but by facts based on the game’s design.

What I meant was that in games where passive stats have to be at a certain level to even think about completing certain content, the only choice is to have those stats or not do that content. In GW2, the choice is have the stats or complete the content less efficiently. I see a decided difference there, and that’s what I mean by imposed by the game versus imposed by the player.

Not all players choose to play with maximum efficiency. Perhaps the opposition to damage meters indicates just how many think that way.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Verificus.4320:

You don’t seem to understand. The choice they make completely invalidates their skill as a player. Their choice makes them kittenoon as they make the choice they stop being ‘very good players’.

Choice invalidates skill?

Well that’s a first. So the people that can (and have) completed the dungeons naked are not skilled players. Gotcha. Because they made a choice to not use zerk gear to do it.

Edit: You know, that could be flipped on you just as easily. The choice to run zerk negates skill. You could look at from the perspective that you need to run a gimmick in order to be successful.

Shadowflame, dearheart, you enjoy this, don’t you? =P

There’s a fairly semantic fail in the argument, right?

“Zerk is best way for play”
No, it’s just fastest, with the condition of using a very specific and well-practiced strategy. “Best” carries too many qualifiers. It might be fast, but boring. It might be fast, but inflexible, assessed by demands to wipe after a failed boss strat downs half the party. It’s fiscally rewarding, but might not be emotionally rewarding. It’s grinding for some, not fun. If it is fun, well, rock on. Not gonna fault someone for getting jollies from earning cash.

“Zerk is for skill”
No, skill is for skill. Forgive the tautology. Speed-runs are practice, which correlates to skill, but is not itself skill.
If we wanted “skill,” we’d be asking for procedurally generated dungeons with random mobs, bosses, and goals. (I really want this, by the way~) There’s no path to learn, no set walls to kite a boss behind, just preparation and reaction. That’s skill.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Verificus.4320:

Also, To say that in this game having the right gear is imposed by the players is false. It IS imposed by the game. You will agree with me when I say that least amount of deaths combined with highest DPS uptime (and total DPS) leads to the fastest possible clear of a dungeon, the fastest way to aquire your reward and gold and allows for the most amount of content to be completed in a single day. Thus, any player that has a limited amount of time to play (which is nearly everyone, wether you hardcore it or not you have limits) will receive more rewards, gold and completion when using the ‘meta’. If this is the case then for all intents and purposes, the game dictates meta, not the player. As no one loves to have less rewards, less gold and less completion. The problem is that people cannot accept that certain ways will not get them that. They want THEIR way to give them the best results. I get that, I to wish my preference would get me the best results. The reality is different however, not imposed by myself, other players but by facts based on the game’s design.

What I meant was that in games where passive stats have to be at a certain level to even think about completing certain content, the only choice is to have those stats or not do that content. In GW2, the choice is have the stats or complete the content less efficiently. I see a decided difference there, and that’s what I mean by imposed by the game versus imposed by the player.

Not all players choose to play with maximum efficiency. Perhaps the opposition to damage meters indicates just how many think that way.

Ah that makes more sense. Yes that is true then. There is no real gearcheck in GW2 if that is what you mean. You can technically complete all content in any gearset possible.

I just can’t imagine why you wouldn’t want to play with max efficiency. What’s more fun then getting rewards playing a sub-optimal build? Getting more and better rewards (better as in higher % chance of good loot cuz more runs per day) by playing an optimal build. At least that’s how I see it. For me, GW2 is a great game, with many shortcomings but great nonetheless. It’s an honor to be even playing something that fun. I don’t give the slightest crap if I have to play meta as long as it gets me more legendaries, ascended gear, skins etc.

@ Rauderi
Fastests IS best. Because best in this game can only be what gives the most rewards as it’s a game based on horizontal progression. No one likes to grind bandit crests, it feels like work, yet everyone still does it to get all the new shinies. Once they get it they are satisfied. It’s a game yes but whoever came up with the idea ‘hey maaan its a game and game’s should be about fun not work!’ is probably the same dude that complains that his 2 hour/week gameplay does not give him equal chances at a precursor as mr nerd who plays all day everyday. Or the same person as the one who begged blizzard for the introduction of welfare epics (which they eventually gave and they still aren’t satisfied), which alot of veteran players consider to be the worst thing to ever happen to that game. As for inflexible. How is it inflexible? If you play properly you never die with zerk. The whole zerk meta is based on the fact there is so much damage negation and avoidance available to the players that one can be invuln for a substantial amount of time so they can DPS uninterrupted, especially if you add high stability uptime and on demand condition cleansing to that. If a failed boss strat downs the entire party they are either a) using the wrong boss strat b) not all using zerker c) not all using the meta build or d) not executing it properly. If the latter, that is a problem. Not everyone can be great at the game. I guess for some zerker is hard to play as they cannot twitch respond to a boss attack with a dodge when its needed. But those people should not desire the same rewards and results as the elite pve’rs. Yet they do. It’s as if they all play soccer but they cry because they don’t earn the same amount of money as Messi. Talent and skill play a large roll.

Zerk IS skill. If it wasn’t then everyone would be able to use it perfectly with enough practice. Yet this is not the case. Some really struggle and that is because they are not skilled enough to be that squishy. Even if a guard keeps up blocks and blinds there will still be moments when you need to hit your invuln/evade and some people cannot deal with the hecticness of speedrunning and they always mess up. This is because they lack the skill to keep a level head and execute their rotation and time it perfectly.

Your idea IS interesting though and I would definitely play that. I do consider that a form of skill.

Verificus.4320:

Then it’s their choice if they wanna abide the meta and join me and my friends’ runs. I don’t think less of them as a person if they don’t and are PHIW but I will think less of them as a player valuable or useful to the team. Luckily there are a myriad of other areas in the game where we can play together. It’s a matter of attitude. Wether it’s a game or not, a positive attitude IMO is to always seek to better and improve yourself.

Understood. I tried to explain why this is a selfish policy to adopt. I don’t care one way or another whether you choose to keep following it, but calling others call others selfish for not choosing to adhere to it is hypocritical.

Verificus.4320:

There are always people who view games more as a form of escapism and aren’t even slightly concerned with being optimal but I would argue those are few.

I suspect that you would lose this argument. Wildstar banked on your idea, and the results didn’t turn out as they had anticipated:

When Wildstar was launched, it was heavily toted as “hardcore” especially in the sense of raiding. It now appears Carbine is adjusting its view with both previous and this upcoming patch. I wanted to know whether this was a pivot away from hardcore or a resolve to “The Devs are listening.” The official word from Frost was “both”, after seeing the feedback and looking at gameplay analytics they found that there was a real need to focus on solo content. However, the solo quest content has been in the works for quite some time and was something intended for launch but wasn’t ready. It was something they decided to “beef” up and Frost confirmed that the solo storyline will continue in future content patches.

Verificus.4320:

No matter how ‘casual’ you are, everyone likes being the overpowered hero in any game. So most people gravitate towards meta becuz meta often best encompasses this feeling of overpoweredness.

The glass cannon style of play is only overpowered in terms of DPS. From others’ perspectives, the ability to shrug off boss mechanics is overpowered, even if killing a boss takes a little longer. Those who gravitate toward zerker gear just want to get the content over and done with so they can tick off the next box on their in-game to-do list that much sooner.

Verificus.4320:

I’m not saying in all cases but in most cases. The small group of people that whine and hate on the meta and rage here are people who are just upset their cleric mace/shield build isn’t one-shotting the bosses like all the zerkers are.

Players hating on the meta miss the GW1 days where figuring out a way to counter skills was more important than flat-out DPS.

Verificus.4320:

They try to desperately find a way to disprove all the math and calculations because they cannot deal with the fact that their already is a proven meta and that this meta is not how they envisioned it would be.

Who disputes math and calculations? GW1 was far more complex than straight up math and calculations. Figuring out the right combination of hexes, conditions, and interrupts for each boss made for more compelling game play than simply coming up with the combination of passive buffs and gear stats that gives the highest output.

Verificus.4320:

As for your last comment, do understand that this game is 2,5 years old and we have been playing the same dungeons and fractals over and over again and I’m pretty much done marveling, discovering and what not.

I found your problem right there. Why are you still running dungeons then?

Verificus.4320:

I play mostly for my guild, social aspect and the story.

What do zerker stats have to do with that?

Verificus.4320:

All the other stuff does feel like a job as I need gold to cover for my in game expenses and I need mats to craft the stuff I want.

And that’s the problem ArenaNet should be fixing. Guild Wars 1 was much better in this regard. They didn’t force you to repeatedly grind dungeons in groups in order to craft high end gear. We simply got the best gear in game near the end, and any further grind was purely for cosmetic purposes.

Verificus.4320:

So yes, I want to complete the incredibly boring and repetitive content we’ve had for, literally, years and go do something else like a new story episode or something else new or fun ASAP. I only want the rewards.

Playing the game is enough reward in and of itself. For many (most?) Guild Wars players, repetitive grinds aren’t rewarding. The concept of rewarding long grinds with better loot is more suited to WoW than this game. This is why caps were placed on Daily and Monthly APs and why it has been reworked yet again to be even less repetitive.

I’ve lost count of how many times I post a “zerks only” lfg (I enjoy playing with people who share the same mindset, don’t blame me) yet get people who join me to be completely opposite. When asked, they either claim they’re “zerks” or even go as far as linking zerk gear yet wearing something completely different. This is why I use a dps meter. It helps me keep the inconsiderate liars out of my parties.

I messed up the quote, so here..

@ Bernie
1: I call them selfish when they join my group anyway, disregarding my LFG advertisement. Not when they make their own group.
2: Maybe, that is indeed a good example. WoW is still the MMO-King though and you’d be hard pressed to find a majority there that doesn’t follow Icy Veins, Elitist Jerks and Fatboss like it’s the holy grail.
3: I guess so, opinions differ. This game’s target audience is alot different from most MMO’s. But because this game also has only a small number of the MMO-population I would argue my statement still holds true. Answers to questions like these would have to actually be investigated though. I base my statements on educated raw estimates. Lol.
4: Still running them because they are my best source of income. I TP alot too but i’m not a power trader. I get most my gold from spamming dungeons. I need to do them to cover my expenses.
5: It means I want to get over with dungeons and fractals fast so I can get to doing the stuff I enjoy. Thus requiring zerker as it gets me there fastest.
6: The ship has sailed on GW1. People need to learn to let go. Was it a better game? Possibly.. Who knows. Everyone’s looking at that through rose-tinted glasses. Had both games existed side-by-side today opinions might differ. Also, people like to remember things differently. GW1 had meta’s too and best builds. Maybe it was more diverse at various levels of play but at the absolute top you still had meta in some way or form and you’d do best to adhere to that meta. The difference is probably that the community was less toxic about meta and non-meta. MMO’s are alot popular now with even the crappiest MMO’s easily reaching a couple 100k players. Add that to WoW’s gargantuan 10 million and it stands to reason that as the MMO-community grows so does the toxcicity ( I grouped both of your GW1 comments in one reply here).
7: If that is the case then why are so many grinding crests, and geodes back in Dry Top.?
Those two zones are the pinnacle of grind content. Still, the maps are so filled that the LFG bugs out when finding a good map to join, be it high tier or high % SW. I guess not many people seem too bothered with it then. Cuz if they really were that bothered, they’d quit the game for something else. Instead they all swallow their negative criticisms and keep on grinding. I do it too. I kitten about the game but I grinded out boots and other stuff I needed too. Maybe the GW1 players have long left this game because of these things but it is evident that the current playerbase keeps joining the grind.

How about adding a meter and combat dummy (crittable / non object) to our home instances? Also, adding it to the WvW Citadel and spawns? This is something valuable to players whom have not one care for Dungeons.

If DPS continues to be the only thing that matters, a meter of some sort would be useful for testing builds. However, if ANet still plan to design future content in ways that make DPS secondary to player skill, it’s giving hand grenades to monkeys.

Ben K.6238:

If DPS continues to be the only thing that matters, a meter of some sort would be useful for testing builds. However, if ANet still plan to design future content in ways that make DPS secondary to player skill, it’s giving hand grenades to monkeys.

The problem is that “Only DPS matters” is a player construct. Arenanet would be foolish to encourage the idea.

Verificus.4320:

2: Maybe, that is indeed a good example. WoW is still the MMO-King though and you’d be hard pressed to find a majority there that doesn’t follow Icy Veins, Elitist Jerks and Fatboss like it’s the holy grail.

Then go play WoW. ArenaNet was founded by former Blizzard developers who wanted to target a different niche of the market than WoW was about to. This game is not now and was never intended to be WoW.

Verificus.4320:

4: Still running them because they are my best source of income. I TP alot too but i’m not a power trader. I get most my gold from spamming dungeons. I need to do them to cover my expenses.

The disparity between dungeon rewards and rewards for everything else in this game is insane. I think that’s more of a problem than the meta. To be sure, this calls a lot more attention to the meta issue. When the most efficient way to farm is in groups that all run a certain set of gear and skills, the dungeon queues get polluted with farmers. One nice aspect of Guild Wars 1 was that soloing was the most efficient way to farm. Those of us who wanted to actually enjoy the game could do so without having to interact with farmers and their non-stop complaints about inefficient content runs.

Verificus.4320:

5: It means I want to get over with dungeons and fractals fast so I can get to doing the stuff I enjoy. Thus requiring zerker as it gets me there fastest.

That’s kind of sad. You don’t even enjoy dungeons, but you feel obligated to do them. This is what ArenaNet should fix.

Verificus.4320:

6: The ship has sailed on GW1. People need to learn to let go. Was it a better game? Possibly.. Who knows. Everyone’s looking at that through rose-tinted glasses. Had both games existed side-by-side today opinions might differ. Also, people like to remember things differently. GW1 had meta’s too and best builds.

The best builds weren’t public. I learned quickly when I won a PvP template contest on the IGN forums only to see my build nerfed the following week. The sheer quantity of synergies in that game guaranteed a wide variety of OP builds. They also varied from class to class. I’m not under any illusion that we can match that system because it was too hard to balance from the PvP perspective, but Guild Wars 2 has gone to the other extreme. The current meta is overly generic: zerker gear for every class, and one prescribed weapon/rune set.

Verificus.4320:

7: If that is the case then why are so many grinding crests, and geodes back in Dry Top.?

Because they are the only means of obtaining the skins exclusive to Dry Top and Silverwastes. If farming those zones is so lucrative then why aren’t you doing that instead of grinding dungeons? You don’t need to answer that because I already know that you can make 10 times more grinding dungeons than you could hope to make in those zones. The difference is that once you’ve obtained the skins from Dry Top and Silverwastes you will have no incentive to go back. On the other hand, the dungeon rewards are so ridiculously inflated that you continue to run them again and again despite your admission that you want to get them over with quickly so you can go back to doing the things you actually like.

This particular overlay (there is not only dps meter) is something what I am look foward for. I hope devs will tell us here if its banable or not because its something what many ppl missing in game and its not bring any advantage for user only space for personal impovements.

Bernie.8674:

Verificus.4320:

2: Maybe, that is indeed a good example. WoW is still the MMO-King though and you’d be hard pressed to find a majority there that doesn’t follow Icy Veins, Elitist Jerks and Fatboss like it’s the holy grail.

Then go play WoW. ArenaNet was founded by former Blizzard developers who wanted to target a different niche of the market than WoW was about to. This game is not now and was never intended to be WoW.

Verificus.4320:

4: Still running them because they are my best source of income. I TP alot too but i’m not a power trader. I get most my gold from spamming dungeons. I need to do them to cover my expenses.

The disparity between dungeon rewards and rewards for everything else in this game is insane. I think that’s more of a problem than the meta. To be sure, this calls a lot more attention to the meta issue. When the most efficient way to farm is in groups that all run a certain set of gear and skills, the dungeon queues get polluted with farmers. One nice aspect of Guild Wars 1 was that soloing was the most efficient way to farm. Those of us who wanted to actually enjoy the game could do so without having to interact with farmers and their non-stop complaints about inefficient content runs.

Verificus.4320:

5: It means I want to get over with dungeons and fractals fast so I can get to doing the stuff I enjoy. Thus requiring zerker as it gets me there fastest.

That’s kind of sad. You don’t even enjoy dungeons, but you feel obligated to do them. This is what ArenaNet should fix.

Verificus.4320:

6: The ship has sailed on GW1. People need to learn to let go. Was it a better game? Possibly.. Who knows. Everyone’s looking at that through rose-tinted glasses. Had both games existed side-by-side today opinions might differ. Also, people like to remember things differently. GW1 had meta’s too and best builds.

The best builds weren’t public. I learned quickly when I won a PvP template contest on the IGN forums only to see my build nerfed the following week. The sheer quantity of synergies in that game guaranteed a wide variety of OP builds. They also varied from class to class. I’m not under any illusion that we can match that system because it was too hard to balance from the PvP perspective, but Guild Wars 2 has gone to the other extreme. The current meta is overly generic: zerker gear for every class, and one prescribed weapon/rune set.

Verificus.4320:

7: If that is the case then why are so many grinding crests, and geodes back in Dry Top.?

Because they are the only means of obtaining the skins exclusive to Dry Top and Silverwastes. If farming those zones is so lucrative then why aren’t you doing that instead of grinding dungeons? You don’t need to answer that because I already know that you can make 10 times more grinding dungeons than you could hope to make in those zones. The difference is that once you’ve obtained the skins from Dry Top and Silverwastes you will have no incentive to go back. On the other hand, the dungeon rewards are so ridiculously inflated that you continue to run them again and again despite your admission that you want to get them over with quickly so you can go back to doing the things you actually like.

Actually, I tested this and SW gives me alot more tier 6 mats. It is however more of the same as it remains a job-like feel just like dungeons. So it doesn’t really matter which of the two I choose, both is grinding. And before that incentive drops we will be alot of weeks into the future and then the new map with grind stuff is released and I’ll move on to that. Same old same old.

I did not know that about PvP, i was more referring to PvE. I must admit I never PvP’d much in GW1 as I was not at all good at it. Not good at the game in general to be honest. I did not even play all expansions.

And yes, it is sad. I cannot go back to WoW as GW2 has many other aspects that make it really hard to go back to an outdated game such as WoW.

there are no DPS meters because there is a plateau of power which is ascended equipment. This is not an MMO that gets monthly gear treadmill upgrades where your gear suddenly becomes obsolete over time…. end of discussion

That is a rather narrowminded statement. DPS can vary extremely between a player using Clerics or Berserker even when both players are using full ascended with stat infusions.

Rozbuska.5263:

This particular overlay (there is not only dps meter) is something what I am look foward for. I hope devs will tell us here if its banable or not because its something what many ppl missing in game and its not bring any advantage for user only space for personal impovements.

These have been consistently forbidden and called bannable offenses. No reason that another one would be different.

Verificus.4320:

That is a rather narrowminded statement. DPS can vary extremely between a player using Clerics or Berserker even when both players are using full ascended with stat infusions.

I would have thought people would have assumed I meant when everyone has zerker a dps meter makes no sense to have. But hey I assume the people that want the DPS meter are people who want to use it to only accept people with the highest dps in their dungeon or instance groups…… DPS meter is not needed when a combat log already tells you what kind of damage you are doing, plus using a little bit of math you might be able to tell your actual dps.

Question was: Why can’t I use DPS meter?
Discussion is: Trinity, Zerker Elitism, God, Democracy

…

I agree. As a competitive player you don’t need it as the best rotations, builds etc are already known. There is a point to be made how effective you are at doing rotations though. In WoW for instance. The difference between a good DPS’r and a bad one can often be timing of miliseconds that over the course of a 10 minute raid fight might turn out to be a 1-5% DPS difference. If you are a min/max speedclear guild this information might be relevant. However, I suspect a DPS meter would mostly be used to weed out non zekers when playing in pugs. As much as I hate those people invading my zerk advertised pug groups I would not resort to a griefing tool to actively try and search for bad players to kick. I simply kick whenever I feel a player is not contributing enough be it not being zerk or just being bad in general. At least then I give them a chance to prove themselves. It keeps a lid on my toxic elitist attitude that while I feel it’s a necessary attitude, needs to also be kept in check so that I don’t turn in TOO much of a kittenbag. It’s only a game after all.

We can’t have a dps meter because people who don’t understand why they’d be excluded from groups would use it as an excuse and burn it at the stake for being the reason they’re getting kicked when the actual reason is : they’re not useful players.

You heard me folks.

When you go in a party the other 4 members in your party are a resource which you make use of in order to obtain better results.

I don’t really care if the guy running nomad’s gear is the absolute best player in GW2 and the guys that are running the meta zerker gear and builds is the most terrible player outside of this meta – the bottom line remains : one is more useful than the other.

It’s not about personality, teaching, playing how you want or anything else. It’s about getting the most bang for your buck and for that reason you’ll want :

- Similarly minded players ( meta players in my case)
- The more AP the better ( although not a sure-fire method – it generally works)
- People who value rewards and consider loot the main goal ( ties into similar goals)
- People who know the content by heart.

Sadly people who are not valuable in groups do not understand this and blame the fact that they’re being kicked/excluded on a plethora of reasons such as :

-Zerker elitists are evil
- People aren’t nice to them
- People don’t give them a chance to show their amazing bearbow tanky gear never die skills.

Which is not the case. They’re getting kicked because they’re not a valuable resource.

Players hating on the meta miss the GW1 days where figuring out a way to counter skills was more important than flat-out DPS.

I don’t know what GW1 you played but the one I did had 2 methods of figuring out builds :

1) Have people who had it off PvX ping it to you.
2) Go to PvX and get it yourself.

There was no “figuring out” – someone figured it out – found out what the best build was – it was posted – became the meta and you ran it.

Same here today.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Verificus.4320:

You don’t seem to understand. The choice they make completely invalidates their skill as a player. Their choice makes them kittenoon as they make the choice they stop being ‘very good players’.

Choice invalidates skill?

Well that’s a first. So the people that can (and have) completed the dungeons naked are not skilled players. Gotcha. Because they made a choice to not use zerk gear to do it.

Edit: You know, that could be flipped on you just as easily. The choice to run zerk negates skill. You could look at from the perspective that you need to run a gimmick in order to be successful.

I missed your post.

Choice might not invalidate skill but it does invalidate usefulness.

If you choose to run something that’s not perfectly suited for what the party requires you could be god himself descended from heaven in terms of skill. Nobody cares.
You are not being as valuable as you could be and there’s no reason to have you.

Read my related post above regarding resources and their allocation.

It’s not at all about skill – but about getting things done.

If no-hands Harry ( no offense to any actual people called that) wanted in my party and regardless of his lack of hands he was a perfect machine at executing dungeon runs but was terrible at everything else I would still want him in my dungeon runs over anybody else. Because that’s where he’s needed and that’s what he does well.
His performance anywhere else is irrelevant to me.

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

Verificus.4320:

That is a rather narrowminded statement. DPS can vary extremely between a player using Clerics or Berserker even when both players are using full ascended with stat infusions.

I would have thought people would have assumed I meant when everyone has zerker a dps meter makes no sense to have. But hey I assume the people that want the DPS meter are people who want to use it to only accept people with the highest dps in their dungeon or instance groups…… DPS meter is not needed when a combat log already tells you what kind of damage you are doing, plus using a little bit of math you might be able to tell your actual dps.

like u said
plus using a little bit of math you might be able to tell your actual dps.

so why not use a meter for the dps then?

u make no sense sorry !

I am against a (personal) dps meter because it is not a usefull tool for several reasons:
1. a dps meter does not indicate if you are more skillfull since your encounter changes due to rng ( a boss different skills at the sam situations ,your weapon modifier was higher at your biurst skills, aggro , …).So you can’t decide at which moment you were skillful.
2. Some builds have lower personal dps but higher group dps. A dps meter would promote the more selfish player to be more efficient while if you switch to that build the party dps would be lower.
3. A dps meter would promote selfish play, like not reviving an ally since it hinders your dps.
4. A skillfull player does not need a dps meter to know when they screwed up. I will not that I am a skilled player but I know when I screwed in my rotation, positioning and I don’t need a dps meter.

I am agains a group dpsmeter since you can calculate that easy by using a timer and time how long it takes you to kill a boss/mob.

If you ever played WoW, you’d know why. Though kind of tools ruined the game.

Harper seems to articulate my own thoughts better than I do. 100% agree on everything.

Deathmond.7328:

But, if I think that to know my(only) DPS is fun?

You can’t figure it out from the combat log?

pupi.2465:

Play to have fun!

People will always have lame excuse that “play game for fun”… well define your fun man! I have fun when i’m having things under control on high level and tactics… That’s my definition of FUN…

So people stop bashing other peoples opinion!

=========
I would love to have DPS meter implemented, if not every where, i would love to have it at least in MIST, so i can set and manage my things to perfection..

Obtena.7952:

Deathmond.7328:

But, if I think that to know my(only) DPS is fun?

You can’t figure it out from the combat log?

Far from being accurate, I’m doing that now.. GW1 players know what DPS dummy/doll is, and that’s what we need in GW2.

Tim.6450:

I am against a (personal) dps meter because it is not a usefull tool for several reasons:
1. a dps meter does not indicate if you are more skillfull since your encounter changes due to rng ( a boss different skills at the sam situations ,your weapon modifier was higher at your biurst skills, aggro , …).So you can’t decide at which moment you were skillful.
2. Some builds have lower personal dps but higher group dps. A dps meter would promote the more selfish player to be more efficient while if you switch to that build the party dps would be lower.
3. A dps meter would promote selfish play, like not reviving an ally since it hinders your dps.
4. A skillfull player does not need a dps meter to know when they screwed up. I will not that I am a skilled player but I know when I screwed in my rotation, positioning and I don’t need a dps meter.

I am agains a group dpsmeter since you can calculate that easy by using a timer and time how long it takes you to kill a boss/mob.

Your arguments are plain false and selfish as well, don’t you think so?

1) No one ever said that this indicates skill-full-ness… and RNG is not big, every game has RNG and variation is still predictable, if you want DPS meter, than you normally have to know some statistics and math to argue when something is efficient!

2) I respect your PERSONAL opinion, but you are again just pointing out dark corners, and trying to give out political answer which would convince people from stop using it. True some builds have lower DPS, people with observation like yours wouldn’t get much out of DPS anyway. So don’t stand against it just because you don’t like it. I think you just fear that people who like to go PRO, will close that gap between awesome and average player.

3.1) If i revive a person, that’s my opinion and choice, this game is not “Saving private Ryan”…

3) What on earth are you even talking about? Again political answer. I’ll just prove that you are plain wrong! For example. DPS meter can tell a guardian how to efficiently use their skills, what’s the maximum burst that someone can deliver, and what’s the span that you have to protect yourself, how to out-sustain enemy and many many more things that you refuse to see, you just try to convince people that this is bad, and not look on bright side.

4) Again, DPS meter makes the difference between me and you and 3rd person that goes 3v1, 5v1 and comes out alive, why? You are not and you cannot be precise with your output calculation, and u’ll never know precise number with 5% variation without in-game tool like GW1 had(dps dummy/puppet). You can rotate godly, but if you don’t output the right numbers, if you don’t out-sustain enemy just because you missed minor thing of conditions over time, than your build will be just one of those average META builds.

I’ll just put it this way, because people think out of the box, they do math, statistics and go deep in numbers… Those are people, that make you wonder, “WHY IS MY META BUILD NOT WORKING!”, and here is your answer and key, to every perfect rotation, with perfect numbers. DPS meter.

I don’t wish to argue with people like you, but i just wanted to open your point of view with some more things that you can do with DPS; it’s not just how much damage you can do per second.

NOTE, i’ll leave my favourite personal GW2 quote:
“One dodge can save you for a second, and that’s all I need for next round of beating!!”

So many trolls here. Can we get this thread closed please?

Since when has fun = bad? Get this straight. You who want zerk do not have fun. You play so that you can eat the carrot at the end of the stick, but you aren’t having fun. I would take slowing a group down by 5 minutes every single time if it meant that I spent that entire dungeon having fun. I could make the dungeon shorter, but then I’d be bored the entire time I was playing. In the end stupid reasoning is stupid. I don’t play games to prove that I’m better at spending more time in a game than others but instead want to have fun. Variety is the spice of life. Down with zerker. blah blah blah

Thanatos.2691:

I think it would be nice to have a dps meter and perhaps even a way to see the stats and dps of people in the party.

It comes down to that, the main reason as far as I can figure there isn’t anything like a DPS meter. We already have things like “optimal” and “non-optimal” (read: “META” and “non-META”) getting in the way of things, if things like group DPS meters and inspect became features they’d have traded the trinity for a single META. They already did this in a way but no sense in taking things further down that dead-end. Nevermind the rampant elitism that would likely reach fanatical levels and alienate a large part of the player base, which is bad for the game as a whole, bad for the player base in general and bad for the company.

DaedalusDragon.3754:

Since when has fun = bad? Get this straight. You who want zerk do not have fun. You play so that you can eat the carrot at the end of the stick, but you aren’t having fun … Down with zerker. blah blah blah

I may be anti-DPS meter and anti-inspect but there’s nothing wrong with playing zerker, I mean I play in head-to-toe zerker gear and that’s my choice just as it’s everyone else choice to play the way they want to. Playing my way doesn’t make things any less fun simply because I choose to do it with a particular gear stat combo .. to each her / his own.

DaedalusDragon.3754:

So many trolls here. Can we get this thread closed please?

Since when has fun = bad? Get this straight. You who want zerk do not have fun. You play so that you can eat the carrot at the end of the stick, but you aren’t having fun. I would take slowing a group down by 5 minutes every single time if it meant that I spent that entire dungeon having fun. I could make the dungeon shorter, but then I’d be bored the entire time I was playing. In the end stupid reasoning is stupid. I don’t play games to prove that I’m better at spending more time in a game than others but instead want to have fun. Variety is the spice of life. Down with zerker. blah blah blah

rofl, another so called anti meta person thinking there is only one way to have fun.

I find it fun to improve and get things done effeciently, this goes for pretty much every game i play. But according to you, i am not having fun. Its people like you that are worse than the scumbag elitest that i have also encountered in my time.

Harlequin.8593:

DaedalusDragon.3754:

Since when has fun = bad? Get this straight. You who want zerk do not have fun. You play so that you can eat the carrot at the end of the stick, but you aren’t having fun … Down with zerker. blah blah blah

I may be anti-DPS meter and anti-inspect but there’s nothing wrong with playing zerker, I mean I play in head-to-toe zerker gear and that’s my choice just as it’s everyone else choice to play the way they want to. Playing my way doesn’t make things any less fun simply because I choose to do it with a particular gear stat combo .. to each her / his own.

I certainly should have clarified. By zerker/zerk I refer to those that believe that anything except zerker is “bad” and has no place in the game. Those kinds of people don’t play to have fun but instead to follow the simple skinner box.

Lifestealer.4910:

DaedalusDragon.3754:

So many trolls here. Can we get this thread closed please?

Since when has fun = bad? Get this straight. You who want zerk do not have fun. You play so that you can eat the carrot at the end of the stick, but you aren’t having fun. I would take slowing a group down by 5 minutes every single time if it meant that I spent that entire dungeon having fun. I could make the dungeon shorter, but then I’d be bored the entire time I was playing. In the end stupid reasoning is stupid. I don’t play games to prove that I’m better at spending more time in a game than others but instead want to have fun. Variety is the spice of life. Down with zerker. blah blah blah

rofl, another so called anti meta person thinking there is only one way to have fun.

I find it fun to improve and get things done effeciently, this goes for pretty much every game i play. But according to you, i am not having fun. Its people like you that are worse than the scumbag elitest that i have also encountered in my time.

I can’t edit that post from my iPad at the moment but please read that as it clarifies what I meant. My apologies. I dislike it when someone tells me that I’m bad because I don’t adhere to some meta that I don’t find interesting. Playing efficiently can be fun and I do it all of the time in other games.

DaedalusDragon.3754:

Lifestealer.4910:

DaedalusDragon.3754:

So many trolls here. Can we get this thread closed please?

Since when has fun = bad? Get this straight. You who want zerk do not have fun. You play so that you can eat the carrot at the end of the stick, but you aren’t having fun. I would take slowing a group down by 5 minutes every single time if it meant that I spent that entire dungeon having fun. I could make the dungeon shorter, but then I’d be bored the entire time I was playing. In the end stupid reasoning is stupid. I don’t play games to prove that I’m better at spending more time in a game than others but instead want to have fun. Variety is the spice of life. Down with zerker. blah blah blah

rofl, another so called anti meta person thinking there is only one way to have fun.

I find it fun to improve and get things done effeciently, this goes for pretty much every game i play. But according to you, i am not having fun. Its people like you that are worse than the scumbag elitest that i have also encountered in my time.

I can’t edit that post from my iPad at the moment but please read that as it clarifies what I meant. My apologies. I dislike it when someone tells me that I’m bad because I don’t adhere to some meta that I don’t find interesting. Playing efficiently can be fun and I do it all of the time in other games.

Just like you interchanged/mixed up words and expect/request people to understand, you should show the same benefit of the doubt to those filthy “zerkers” you despise.

Generally when they call you “bad” they mean “slower”, “sub-optimal”, or even “inefficient”, and I presume from your last sentence that you wouldn’t disagree with those words.

Very few would claim that you are not having fun (although they might say they are not having fun playing with you). Most people would acknowledge that you have a different standard/definition for fun. Most of us would simply appreciate if you could acknowledge the same for us.

We’ve got enough elites kittens in this game, I certainly don’t want to have more reason to complain and discriminate.

CureForLiving.5360:

We’ve got enough elites kittens in this game, I certainly don’t want to have more reason to complain and discriminate.

Nice example of respect and tolerance, certainly not toxic.

I don’t give a rat’s kitten about a dps meter, but I think the actual number or a % hp left on a boss would be glorious for skills like heartseeker or traits that activate when a target is at a certain % hp. It’s pretty annoying when I blow 3 initiative on what I think is 25% hp but really it’s like 28 or 29%.

Someone explain to me this, if I had a performance meter, how would that translate to elitism? The stats given would only be viewable by me. There would be nothing to link or give out to others. Thus, where does the “elitism” come from?

For performance, I know a friend and I had fun using the Scarlet Knights as a pseudo DPS meter. It was actually a lot of fun pushing to see what the max sustainable output was. Also, by doing so we were contributing a lot to everyone in LA during the event chain. I highly dislike that interesting and fun things are being withheld do to Dungeons. There’s A LOT more to the game than that.

DPS meter would create a tiny localized black hole which would rip your heart out of your chest and turn you into a cold dark minion, often referred as an elitist.

AlliedKhajiit.2794:

I don’t give a rat’s kitten about a dps meter, but I think the actual number or a % hp left on a boss would be glorious for skills like heartseeker or traits that activate when a target is at a certain % hp. It’s pretty annoying when I blow 3 initiative on what I think is 25% hp but really it’s like 28 or 29%.

Since the size of the HP bar on your screen is the same regardless of a boss, using a simple overlay would work for that, and won’t cause any problems.

Rauderi.8706:

Shadowflame, dearheart, you enjoy this, don’t you? =P

Oh my, whatever could you mean? I’m an innocent little angel! stuffs horns into purse

I’m just being me

Harper.4173:

Choice might not invalidate skill but it does invalidate usefulness.

“Usefulness” is subjective. It varies from person to person, group to group.

Harper.4173:

It’s not at all about skill – but about getting things done.

It that were true (“getting things done”) then it really would not matter what the person was wearing, as it has been repeatedly pointed out that the game can be played naked.

If no-hands Harry ( no offense to any actual people called that) wanted in my party and regardless of his lack of hands he was a perfect machine at executing dungeon runs but was terrible at everything else I would still want him in my dungeon runs over anybody else. Because that’s where he’s needed and that’s what he does well.
His performance anywhere else is irrelevant to me.

I get your point here, and in general the topic is not so much non zerks joining all zerk speedclear groups (that’s its own issue). Nor is it that zerk isn’t /shouldn’t be the optimal armor. It’s that absolutely everything is viable (even playing naked). Choosing to be something other than zerk (including playing naked) does not negate a players skill, it only states that they have opted to play a different way. That doesn’t make them bad or wrong, just different. The zerk speed clearers don’t want to play with those people, and that’s fine, but stop ridiculing them for being different. You don’t know a kitten thing about them!

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

The zerk speed clearers don’t want to play with those people, and that’s fine, but stop ridiculing them for being different. You don’t know a kitten thing about them!

I know that their ceiling is double digit percentage points lower than that of a zerker.

While most of us are aware of the imperfect correlation between “potential” and “reality”, the double digit percentage ceiling gap is indeed a reality and means a non-zerker has to play that much better to even catch up.

Another brutally honest truth: playing zerker/non-zerker is a choice (as opposed to a skill requirement), and choices have consequences. It’s up to you whether you take “sub-optimal” (in the context of ceiling/potential) as objective truth or subjective ridicule.

PS: You’ll only ever hear this word from me if you try to offer suboptimal advice to someone asking for help in map chat. But, if you do talk about how your tanking/healing/roleplaying setup is somehow optimal, you will no longer be entitled to my silence.

DaveGan.8065:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

The zerk speed clearers don’t want to play with those people, and that’s fine, but stop ridiculing them for being different. You don’t know a kitten thing about them!

I know that their ceiling is double digit percentage points lower than that of a zerker.

While most of us are aware of the imperfect correlation between “potential” and “reality”, the double digit percentage ceiling gap is indeed a reality and means a non-zerker has to play that much better to even catch up.

Another brutally honest truth: playing zerker/non-zerker is a choice (as opposed to a skill requirement), and choices have consequences. It’s up to you whether you take “sub-optimal” (in the context of ceiling/potential) as objective truth or subjective ridicule.

PS: You’ll only ever hear this word from me if you try to offer suboptimal advice to someone asking for help in map chat. But, if you do talk about how your tanking/healing/roleplaying setup is somehow optimal, you will no longer be entitled to my silence.

Never claimed to be optimal. Just different, which is a perfectly valid choice to make.

My point still stands. Just because they opt to run Valk over Zerk (for example) doesn’t make them a “bad” or skill-less players. Yes, they do less damage. Yes, they are not running the most efficient, face roll armor available. That still does not make them wrong. It does not make them bad ( although there are those that legitimately are). Which was the whole topic of the original conversation.

Not whether they were right or wrong for trying to join a zerk speed clear that is clearly called out as one. Not whether they do more or less damage. Not whether its optimal or not.

Assuming people are “bad” players just because they don’t run zerk gear is the same as assuming that the black man you pass on the street is absolutely going to mug you. It’s not necessarily true. That is the whole point of this conversation.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

DaveGan.8065:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

The zerk speed clearers don’t want to play with those people, and that’s fine, but stop ridiculing them for being different. You don’t know a kitten thing about them!

I know that their ceiling is double digit percentage points lower than that of a zerker.

While most of us are aware of the imperfect correlation between “potential” and “reality”, the double digit percentage ceiling gap is indeed a reality and means a non-zerker has to play that much better to even catch up.

Another brutally honest truth: playing zerker/non-zerker is a choice (as opposed to a skill requirement), and choices have consequences. It’s up to you whether you take “sub-optimal” (in the context of ceiling/potential) as objective truth or subjective ridicule.

PS: You’ll only ever hear this word from me if you try to offer suboptimal advice to someone asking for help in map chat. But, if you do talk about how your tanking/healing/roleplaying setup is somehow optimal, you will no longer be entitled to my silence.

Never claimed to be optimal. Just different, which is a perfectly valid choice to make.

My point still stands. Just because they opt to run Valk over Zerk (for example) doesn’t make them a “bad” or skill-less players. Yes, they do less damage. Yes, they are not running the most efficient, face roll armor available. That still does not make them wrong. It does not make them bad ( although there are those that legitimately are). Which was the whole topic of the original conversation.

Not whether they were right or wrong for trying to join a zerk speed clear that is clearly called out as one. Not whether they do more or less damage. Not whether its optimal or not.

Assuming people are “bad” players just because they don’t run zerk gear is the same as assuming that the black man you pass on the street is absolutely going to mug you. It’s not necessarily true. That is the whole point of this conversation.

Not to mention how many “bad” zerkers I’ve happened across. Wearing zerker gear doesn’t necessarily make you good.

So, time to recruit.

• 10 000+ AP
• Meta Build Only
• Full Ascended Berserker Gear, Jewelry
• Full set of Superior Rune of Strength
• Legendary Weapon(Berserker stats)
• All Offensive slots filled with Power Infusions
• Dungeon Master title
• Hobby Dungeon Explorer Achievement Completed
• Don’t be a baddie
• I must know you
• Link screenshot to your minimal DPS (if value is too low, we’ll reject you, and call you bad noob)

If you meet above requirements please leave your CV and maybe we’ll take you with us for a test run.