Guild Wars 2

I just want personal dps meter that is win win for all if you for it or against it

Vayne.8563:

Not to mention how many “bad” zerkers I’ve happened across. Wearing zerker gear doesn’t necessarily make you good.

Yeah, I touched on that in a previous post trying to make my point too.

Using non zerk gear doesn’t automatically make you bad. Conversely, using zerk gear doesn’t automatically make you good.

It was conveniently ignored.

Killface.1896:

I just want personal dps meter that is win win for all if you for it or against it

I’m perfectly fine with a personal DPS meter of some sort. I’ve suggested several times that we could use something along the lines of GW1’s Isle of the Nameless.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

DaveGan.8065:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

The zerk speed clearers don’t want to play with those people, and that’s fine, but stop ridiculing them for being different. You don’t know a kitten thing about them!

I know that their ceiling is double digit percentage points lower than that of a zerker.

While most of us are aware of the imperfect correlation between “potential” and “reality”, the double digit percentage ceiling gap is indeed a reality and means a non-zerker has to play that much better to even catch up.

Another brutally honest truth: playing zerker/non-zerker is a choice (as opposed to a skill requirement), and choices have consequences. It’s up to you whether you take “sub-optimal” (in the context of ceiling/potential) as objective truth or subjective ridicule.

PS: You’ll only ever hear this word from me if you try to offer suboptimal advice to someone asking for help in map chat. But, if you do talk about how your tanking/healing/roleplaying setup is somehow optimal, you will no longer be entitled to my silence.

Never claimed to be optimal. Just different, which is a perfectly valid choice to make.

My point still stands. Just because they opt to run Valk over Zerk (for example) doesn’t make them a “bad” or skill-less players. Yes, they do less damage. Yes, they are not running the most efficient, face roll armor available. That still does not make them wrong. It does not make them bad ( although there are those that legitimately are). Which was the whole topic of the original conversation.

Not whether they were right or wrong for trying to join a zerk speed clear that is clearly called out as one. Not whether they do more or less damage. Not whether its optimal or not.

Assuming people are “bad” players just because they don’t run zerk gear is the same as assuming that the black man you pass on the street is absolutely going to mug you. It’s not necessarily true. That is the whole point of this conversation.

I am quite curious as to why you call zerk, a face roll armor?…if anything any gear that makes you noticeably more tanky through passive stats is more facerollish than zerk. A valkyrie thief for instance can make alot more mistakes in a dungeon than a zerk thief, evident in one of my cm runs where a valk thief facetanked a rocket turret without being downed while a zerk thief would be instantly in down state. The same pretty much goes for any fights where their are big hits involved.

Lifestealer.4910:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

DaveGan.8065:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

The zerk speed clearers don’t want to play with those people, and that’s fine, but stop ridiculing them for being different. You don’t know a kitten thing about them!

I know that their ceiling is double digit percentage points lower than that of a zerker.

While most of us are aware of the imperfect correlation between “potential” and “reality”, the double digit percentage ceiling gap is indeed a reality and means a non-zerker has to play that much better to even catch up.

Another brutally honest truth: playing zerker/non-zerker is a choice (as opposed to a skill requirement), and choices have consequences. It’s up to you whether you take “sub-optimal” (in the context of ceiling/potential) as objective truth or subjective ridicule.

PS: You’ll only ever hear this word from me if you try to offer suboptimal advice to someone asking for help in map chat. But, if you do talk about how your tanking/healing/roleplaying setup is somehow optimal, you will no longer be entitled to my silence.

Never claimed to be optimal. Just different, which is a perfectly valid choice to make.

My point still stands. Just because they opt to run Valk over Zerk (for example) doesn’t make them a “bad” or skill-less players. Yes, they do less damage. Yes, they are not running the most efficient, face roll armor available. That still does not make them wrong. It does not make them bad ( although there are those that legitimately are). Which was the whole topic of the original conversation.

Not whether they were right or wrong for trying to join a zerk speed clear that is clearly called out as one. Not whether they do more or less damage. Not whether its optimal or not.

Assuming people are “bad” players just because they don’t run zerk gear is the same as assuming that the black man you pass on the street is absolutely going to mug you. It’s not necessarily true. That is the whole point of this conversation.

I am quite curious as to why you call zerk, a face roll armor?…if anything any gear that makes you noticeably more tanky through passive stats is more facerollish than zerk. A valkyrie thief for instance can make alot more mistakes in a dungeon than a zerk thief, evident in one of my cm runs where a valk thief facetanked a rocket turret without being downed while a zerk thief would be instantly in down state. The same pretty much goes for any fights where their are big hits involved.

Just difference in how we view the term I suppose. Some people view it in the defensive manner (face tanking as you put it), others view it as being overpowered in the offensive manner. When I run around in zerk gear (which I do on my war) everything typically dies so kitten quickly that it really takes 0 effort to do.

Here is the reality on dps meters.

You can come up with a million and one theoretical reasons why they would be a good thing, but in practice (with years of anecdotal evidence), they have proven to be toxic and create hateful gameplay time and time again.

I wouldnt mind seeing test dummies or mock encounters in my home instance where I could – personally – practice killing faster and faster in a controlled environment, but a HUGE NO to dps meters. Regardless of any theoretical argument, history proves they would be bad for the game.

And, like so many have said, its already very easy to measure personal skill in the game. If speed kills are your thing, just time how fast you kill the same target and shoot for a faster kill the next time. Voila – there is your personal dps meter.

Blaeys.3102:

Here is the reality on dps meters.

You can come up with a million and one theoretical reasons why they would be a good thing, but in practice (with years of anecdotal evidence), they have proven to be toxic and create hateful gameplay time and time again.
—

So does this feature called chat.

Lifestealer.4910:

I am quite curious as to why you call zerk, a face roll armor?…if anything any gear that makes you noticeably more tanky through passive stats is more facerollish than zerk. A valkyrie thief for instance can make alot more mistakes in a dungeon than a zerk thief

The basis beyond zerker meta is that while indeed, it doesn’t allow you to make as much mistakes as tanky builds, it ends fights so fast that you don’t have time to make any. Lot of perfectly skilled speedrunners will kiss a floor in a pug run, because they depend on that speed, and are unable to function without it. Because their whole “skill” is tied to an execution of a single meta strategy.

If that is your opinion then pls leave AC and COF and start doing some Arah or highlevel fractals.

It’s very evident not many here do any type of high level PvE..

In high level fractals that Valk thief and Zerk thief would both get one-shot by many things. The stuff they are supposed to dodge. Not the in between small base attacks or other type of damage like conditions or w/e. There is no point to running Valk here as passive defense does absolutely nothing. Thus by making the choice to run Valk in these higher fractals they are lowering group DPS and getting nothing in return. They think they are surviving longer but in reality they don’t they are just bringing down the group’s performance. There is no amount of passive defense in the world that can work for you when a large part of encounters have some form of one-shot mechanic. Instead, it’s better to go max DPS so that the one-shot mechanic is encountered less because the fight is shorter. Thus requiring less dodges, blocks, blinds, invuln etc.

Maybe in fractal level 1 or something like AC someone who cannot play relaxed/properly with zerk equipped can stay alive longer when they go knights or w/e but since this topic is about a DPS-meter (a fairly hardcore feature I would assume), we are not talking about the easier PvE content. If I’m doing a level 50 fractal and i’m one guy short that I need to pug and he comes in with valk or knights he will very much affect the success of that run as the group DPS will drop by enough to allow some bosses to execute their one-shot fights more often cuz the fight lasts longer. In which case the party might wipe if we are out of damage negation. All the while this kid gets nothing in return for his extra defensive stats cuz he gets nuked by the content all the same. That makes you a bad player.

Verificus.4320:

It’s very evident not many here do any type of high level PvE..

In high level fractals that Valk thief and Zerk thief would both get one-shot by many things. The stuff they are supposed to dodge. Not the in between small base attacks or other type of damage like conditions or w/e. There is no point to running Valk here as passive defense does absolutely nothing. Thus by making the choice to run Valk in these higher fractals they are lowering group DPS and getting nothing in return. They think they are surviving longer but in reality they don’t they are just bringing down the group’s performance. There is no amount of passive defense in the world that can work for you when a large part of encounters have some form of one-shot mechanic. Instead, it’s better to go max DPS so that the one-shot mechanic is encountered less because the fight is shorter. Thus requiring less dodges, blocks, blinds, invuln etc.

Maybe in fractal level 1 or something like AC someone who cannot play relaxed/properly with zerk equipped can stay alive longer when they go knights or w/e but since this topic is about a DPS-meter (a fairly hardcore feature I would assume), we are not talking about the easier PvE content. If I’m doing a level 50 fractal and i’m one guy short that I need to pug and he comes in with valk or knights he will very much affect the success of that run as the group DPS will drop by enough to allow some bosses to execute their one-shot fights more often cuz the fight lasts longer. In which case the party might wipe if we are out of damage negation. All the while this kid gets nothing in return for his extra defensive stats cuz he gets nuked by the content all the same. That makes you a bad player.

I read it. I truly did, and while I can understand your perspective (to a point), all this says is..

“We have to burn the foe down as fast as we can so we don’t have to deal with his mechanics”

That’s the long and the short of it. The faster you kill him, the less skilled / tactical / strategic you need to be because you’re simply side stepping the mechanics. And you depend on that, which makes it a crutch.

People solo those bosses naked for fun, but to be honest, if you dont need any passive defense, why should you use it?

Cause I find it boring to kill things in 3 hits?
Cause I’m not necessarily playing to get to the shiny as fast as I can?
Sometimes I don’t care about the shiny at all because I’m just enjoying time with people I’m with?

Unless I’m farming, then yes killing things more quickly suits my needs.

shrug

That’s like asking why I eat chocolate. I don’t need it, but I sure do enjoy it. Same general idea in the game.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Verificus.4320:

It’s very evident not many here do any type of high level PvE..

In high level fractals that Valk thief and Zerk thief would both get one-shot by many things. The stuff they are supposed to dodge. Not the in between small base attacks or other type of damage like conditions or w/e. There is no point to running Valk here as passive defense does absolutely nothing. Thus by making the choice to run Valk in these higher fractals they are lowering group DPS and getting nothing in return. They think they are surviving longer but in reality they don’t they are just bringing down the group’s performance. There is no amount of passive defense in the world that can work for you when a large part of encounters have some form of one-shot mechanic. Instead, it’s better to go max DPS so that the one-shot mechanic is encountered less because the fight is shorter. Thus requiring less dodges, blocks, blinds, invuln etc.

Maybe in fractal level 1 or something like AC someone who cannot play relaxed/properly with zerk equipped can stay alive longer when they go knights or w/e but since this topic is about a DPS-meter (a fairly hardcore feature I would assume), we are not talking about the easier PvE content. If I’m doing a level 50 fractal and i’m one guy short that I need to pug and he comes in with valk or knights he will very much affect the success of that run as the group DPS will drop by enough to allow some bosses to execute their one-shot fights more often cuz the fight lasts longer. In which case the party might wipe if we are out of damage negation. All the while this kid gets nothing in return for his extra defensive stats cuz he gets nuked by the content all the same. That makes you a bad player.

I read it. I truly did, and while I can understand your perspective (to a point), all this says is..

“We have to burn the foe down as fast as we can so we don’t have to deal with his mechanics”

That’s the long and the short of it. The faster you kill him, the less skilled / tactical / strategic you need to be because you’re simply side stepping the mechanics. And you depend on that, which makes it a crutch.

Yeah but is it my, or the speedclear communities’ fault that we attempt this? Or is it anet for not designing encounters that are so trivial it leads to us approaching it in this way? It’s not exploiting as we are not using any programs, out of map stuff or any of the sorts to complete content. Anet provides all the tools by making encounters so trivial that if you go max dps you avoid a large part of the fight mechanics and just kill it. And by providing us with gear, dodge, block and other skills.

How would you reckon they’d fix this? Removing all those abilities? Then a trinity would probably be needed and no one wants that apparantly. Remove zerker? Another stat combination will come out on top. Probably some mix of cavalier/valk/knights/assassins to provide the best DPS. Understand that one of the reasons any of the above gear types would work is because having 25 vuln, might and fury up.. with banners and all the myriad flat % dmg boosts in traits is the real reason why we do so much DPS. What would they have to do then? Remove all gear that has precision and ferocity on it? Cuz that is the only thing that would work then. Removing just Zerk would mean a slight hit in DPS, a slight hit to the speedclear records but it would still mean cleric users get kicked from groups.

ArenaNet should just add the ability to write the combat log to a text file. It’s the simplest way to implement legal parsing. Although parsing it directly from memory is technically a violation, they’re not actively looking for it so it’s not like you’re going to get banned.

There’s really no reason to not allow a personal DPS meter. A public DPS meter however would lead to open world shaming during timed events, but that log isn’t even available.

Verificus.4320:

Yeah but is it my, or the speedclear communities’ fault that we attempt this? Or is it anet for not designing encounters that are so trivial it leads to us approaching it in this way?

While I don’t personally like speed clears, I’ve also stated that there isn’t anything wrong with them (in theory). It’s just how you and those like you ‘prefer’ to play. Just like I prefer to do more casual clears. But again, that’s beyond the original point that was being argued.

As for whose fault it is, the blames actually lies on both parties. Yes, Anet has the blame of not making the encounters more meaningful. However there is also fault on the speed clearers’ side in looking for ways to completely trivialize the content and intentionally sidestepping the mechanics and the spirit in how it was ‘designed to be played.’

It’s not exploiting as we are not using any programs, out of map stuff or any of the sorts to complete content.

Some would argue that intentionally finding a specific spot to stand in order to completely (or almost completely) negate a fight’s mechanics to be an exploit.

Anet provides all the tools by making encounters so trivial that if you go max dps you avoid a large part of the fight mechanics and just kill it. And by providing us with gear, dodge, block and other skills.

Its true, they did design and provide all those things. However, like all designers they also likely designed them with a ‘happy path’ in mind. Sure they catch many of the potential flaws and issues, but developers and QAs are human. They aren’t going to catch every scenario, every potential synergy. Besides, there are a lot more of us to come up with these things than there are of them.

How would you reckon they’d fix this? Removing all those abilities?

Not at all. But why can the foes not be smart enough to counter some of our tactics? Have the ability to detect /reveal stealth for example. What if foes in dungeons had no tethers and chased the party to the boss and dog piled them, instead of allowing to be skipped. There are (and have been) a lot of interesting twists they could throw in to make these fights more interesting, with mechanics you can’t simply ignore or glitch.

Then a trinity would probably be needed.

This isn’t necessarily true either.

Remove zerker? Another stat combination will come out on top.

I’m not saying to remove zerk either. But yes, doing so would simply mean that another gear would step into the best dps slot.

At this point we have completely moved well past the entire original point…

List those spots that completely disable a boss pls. I don’t know many, but i think i know most of them.
Most “stacking” spots do exactly nothing except making it easier to pull a group of mobs together

Verificus.4320:

You don’t seem to understand. The choice they make completely invalidates their skill as a player. Their choice makes them bad. When they make the choice they stop being ‘very good players’.

Non optimal is not bad unless the stated goal of a given run is for the best possible/perfect time. In such a circumstance non optimal gear will be no more bad than the fact that the vast majority of players, even in optimal gear, will not be able to perform at the level of the very best. This means that even the optimal gear users are bad by your logic because their performance is not optimal.

So, with very few exceptions, by your logic of non optimal = bad , everyone is bad.

Another thing that points out you don’t understand competitive PvE.
We don’t stack to negate mechanics. We stack because there is a maximum range on boons, because when everyone is stacked it’s easier to res a downed player, because melee by design is better than range (more damage and thus preferred for speedclearers) and becuz certain CC mechanics effect you less when you stack in a corner. E.g. stuff that knocks you miles away only disables you when you are in a corner, thus you don’t get out of boon range etc. Also, AOE’ing trash is easier if they are all grouped together in a corner.
This is intended design as evident by the fact anet has max boon radius in PvE and by how they actually contructed the dungeons. I would find it hard to believe no one at anet ever came up with the idea to stack behind a corner during alpha testing.
People can have their opinions but there is only one that can have opinions about what truly constitutes as exploiting and whatever consequences this has and that is Anet. Since they have stated repeatedly they are perfectly fine with stacking it can therefore never been seen as exploiting by anyone who wants to seriously contribute to a discussion like this.

As for putting the fault with both parties. Lol, no. If you come with stuff like ‘the spirit of how it was designed’ and other emotional crap then the argument is moot. In any game that has any kind of competitive element, those that want to be the best will find whatever way they can to get an edge. It’s human nature and its also the nature of competitive play. Wether it be sports, games w/e. Obviously the rules must not be broken but I can say I never exploit based on what Anet has outlined to be exploiting. Thus, any advantage I get with in those boundaries is nothing more than a logical thing to chase. If I need to equip cleric’s gear, stop stacking and w/e tactics to make something challenging or the ‘way it’s meant to be played’ then obviously something is wrong with design. Player’s should not attempt to make such choices. These choices should be enforced based on encounter design. That’s the only way to get rid of trivial content.

Wethospu.6437:

Blaeys.3102:

Here is the reality on dps meters.

You can come up with a million and one theoretical reasons why they would be a good thing, but in practice (with years of anecdotal evidence), they have proven to be toxic and create hateful gameplay time and time again.
—

So does this feature called chat.

GW2 Chat is shockingly positive and productive, dps meters aren’t meaningfully productive, except for kitten-measuring

The important point here anyways is that Anet has been clear about these kinds of things, and their answer is they don’t like them.

sigh

I’m aware that there is a max range on boons. Which is why everyone always wants you to be melee instead of ranged. To make sure everyone gets the might stacks and aegis.

Just because I don’t specifically touch on every point does not mean I’m not aware of it.

What next, are you going to point out at the dogs’ fear howl in CM can be dodged because I didn’t mention that specifically?

You’re making assumptions again.

There are things I don’t know, which I openly admit. I have no desire to do speed runs. No desire to to lvl 50 fractals. The “you must conform and do absolutely nothing else” mentality isn’t my style.

There is nothing wrong in approaching the game from the perspective in which is was designed. Yes, people have (and will) always chase the advantage as you put it, but that doesn’t change what the ‘intent’ behind the design may have been (and I highly doubt speed clearing was the intent behind the dungeon designs. That doesn’t make the argument moot, just a different way to look at it.

As for choices being enforced based on encounter, that ends up negating choice all together. People don’t want that either.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Assuming people are “bad” players just because they don’t run zerk gear is the same as assuming that the black man you pass on the street is absolutely going to mug you. It’s not necessarily true. That is the whole point of this conversation.

Sorry but no.

Profiling black people is wrong because race is not a choice.

As zerker/non-zerker is a choice every player has more or less equal opportunity (this game does not lack equality of opportunity with gear choice) to make, there is nothing morally or ethically wrong with profiling by gear.

The only thing that remains is whether or not profiling by gear will get you better players on average. Those who believe it does will rightfully profile by it.

GW2 consists of more than PvE, and PvE consists of more than dungeons. It is ridiculous to paint broad swaths of the playerbase with the “bad players” brush, when you’re really only talking about rapidly completing very tiny slices of highly scripted, instanced content in a game that is far, far larger than that. So you’ve got a specific recipe for beating less than 5% of the game in the fastest, most efficient manner possible. Congratulations, I guess?

If the claim is that people are “bad dungeon runners” for not running berserker gear stats, that’s highly debatable but at least a legitimate debate can be had. OTOH generically painting all non-berserkers as “bad players,” which has been consistently happening in this thread, is so far out of bounds that it qualifies as flat-out trolling.

I’ll also go out on a limb here and suggest that many if not most people don’t give a skritt’s backside about efficiency or optimization when it comes to their choices in entertainment content: “Gabriel Iglesias delivers a higher average ratio of laughs per minute than Chris Rock, so to maximize comedic efficiency nobody should listen to Chris Rock. Those who do are bad at consuming entertainment content.”

And none of this has anything to do with a DPS meter.

DaveGan.8065:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Assuming people are “bad” players just because they don’t run zerk gear is the same as assuming that the black man you pass on the street is absolutely going to mug you. It’s not necessarily true. That is the whole point of this conversation.

Sorry but no.

Profiling black people is wrong because race is not a choice.

As zerker/non-zerker is a choice every player has more or less equal opportunity (this game does not lack equality of opportunity with gear choice) to make, there is nothing morally or ethically wrong with profiling by gear.

The only thing that remains is whether or not profiling by gear will get you better players on average. Those who believe it does will rightfully profile by it.

The core problem isn’t whether it’s a useful tool though, the core problem is what it does to player interactions.

Windsagio.1340:

DaveGan.8065:

Sorry but no.

Profiling black people is wrong because race is not a choice.

As zerker/non-zerker is a choice every player has more or less equal opportunity (this game does not lack equality of opportunity with gear choice) to make, there is nothing morally or ethically wrong with profiling by gear.

The only thing that remains is whether or not profiling by gear will get you better players on average. Those who believe it does will rightfully profile by it.

The core problem isn’t whether it’s a useful tool though, the core problem is what it does to player interactions.

I got somewhat derailed as I was responding to a post about zerker gear, not one about DPS meters.

On your point, I think “what it does to player interactions” would only be a reason for ANet to not support the use of DPS meters, but not a reason for them to outlaw meters completely.

If all policy was set on how something could be abused or trolled, we wouldn’t have stuff like the Copper/Silver/Gold bosses in the Silverwastes who can fail because of one single troll.

Windsagio.1340:

The important point here anyways is that Anet has been clear about these kinds of things, and their answer is they don’t like them.

I wish I could give this to the anti-meta, anti-zerker crowd as a response to their whining, but I’d get infracted.

DaveGan.8065:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Assuming people are “bad” players just because they don’t run zerk gear is the same as assuming that the black man you pass on the street is absolutely going to mug you. It’s not necessarily true. That is the whole point of this conversation.

Sorry but no.

Profiling black people is wrong because race is not a choice.

As zerker/non-zerker is a choice every player has more or less equal opportunity (this game does not lack equality of opportunity with gear choice) to make, there is nothing morally or ethically wrong with profiling by gear.

The only thing that remains is whether or not profiling by gear will get you better players on average. Those who believe it does will rightfully profile by it.

I was comparing one stereotype (which is what automatically assuming non zerk = bad is) to another stereotype. The general concept still applies.

Teknomancer.4895:

GW2 consists of more than PvE, and PvE consists of more than dungeons. It is ridiculous to paint broad swaths of the playerbase with the “bad players” brush, when you’re really only talking about rapidly completing very tiny slices of highly scripted, instanced content in a game that is far, far larger than that. So you’ve got a specific recipe for beating less than 5% of the game in the fastest, most efficient manner possible. Congratulations, I guess?

If the claim is that people are “bad dungeon runners” for not running berserker gear stats, that’s highly debatable but at least a legitimate debate can be had. OTOH generically painting all non-berserkers as “bad players,” which has been consistently happening in this thread, is so far out of bounds that it qualifies as flat-out trolling.

I’ll also go out on a limb here and suggest that many if not most people don’t give a skritt’s backside about efficiency or optimization when it comes to their choices in entertainment content: “Gabriel Iglesias delivers a higher average ratio of laughs per minute than Chris Rock, so to maximize comedic efficiency nobody should listen to Chris Rock. Those who do are bad at consuming entertainment content.”

And none of this has anything to do with a DPS meter.

This topic is about a DPS meter. The only people who care about DPS meters are people who care about performance, people who are min/max’rs and people who engage in the highest difficulity level of PvE content. Thus when I brush certain groups of players off as bad I specifically mean in the context of this PvE content. How they perform outside of that or in any other area of the game is irrelevant to me.
I thought people in this thread were intelligently enough to make that connection. Or do you want to make my already enormous walls of text even larger to constantly point to which group of people I’m referring too?
DPS meters are a way to test performance. Performance that is highly tied into running meta and said DPS meters would be used to find variations in builds (traits) gear (how many pieces of assassin’s gear) and rotations of these meta builds (or to find better ones if they exist). As such, when talking about DPS meters, simple logic would allow you to be able to deduce that we’re talking about the ‘bad player in the dungeon and fractal enviroment’.

On Topic:
DPS meters and this whole discussion about zerker meta go hand in hand. The ones who request DPS meters (as in non-personal ones but group wide) are those that want to enforce this meta upon others. I can already enforce this meta fine on anyone who joins my advertised LFG. They ping their gear and if it’s bad or they don’t ping I kick them. I don’t need a DPS meter to do that. The DPS meter will mostly be used for griefing in random parties/pugs that aren’t even speedclear/zerk meta so that players who feel bad in real life can bring people down in MMO’s. As is evident by how DPS meters are used in most games. A personal DPS meter would be a fine addition but ultimately not extremely necessary at this point in time. We can already calculate DPS quite accurate (more or less) through various methods and a little bit of effort. People who really care about DPS will put in this effort to find out. I feel the development of a personal DPS meter would steal precious development time that might be better spent improving various other aspects of this game that need more immediate improving.

To make it harder for you to tell that I never use Zerker gear, that’s why there’s no DPS Meter.

DPS meters and GearScore will ruin this community/game. It will cause a rift between the elitists and casuals, and this place will soon become a ghost town.

But at the same time; it WILL push players in the social model of whats acceptable. Its already going that way with the AP numbers (Group LFM, AP 5k+ ONLY, Zerk). It all depends on how the MAJORITY of the community hands it. – But I find it funny how I see Players with AP 5k+ that are just as bad as the AP 1200+ so w/e.

Look at it this way, there is no monthly sub, a lot of players log in for the seasonal/LS stuff, and then quit after they achieve what they were after (I see more of this today then I did 18months ago). So players don’t feel ‘attached’ to this game as they do to a sub game (WoW for example), so I feel the desire to ‘be in the mold’ is just not there with how Anet had this game setup from launch and how its been going (Dumb down like crazy until level 45 or so)

Now look at my last experience in WoW. I played till the end(from Beta mind you) of WoTK (when Cata was in Beta). I Pugged the ENTIRE WOTK expac as a main tank (Pally) and played on MY terms. Due to how Gear Score was I could gauge my own build based on the GS and the %’s needed to maintain tankability. After WoTK was over I stepped away to see what Cata was going to bring(IMHO a horrible Mess) and you know what? I never went back. GearScore and Damage Meters (really anything that subsidies your play style) make a game super trivial and it becomes JUST a math problem.

I am done playing games like that.

And, I feel the same thing would happen here if GearScore and Damage Meter like things were implemented here.

/just my opinion after 16~ years in the world of MMOs (starting with classic Everquest in 1999)

Saiyan.1704:

People will use it to weed other people out in damage specific rolls. It may add a drama that other mmo’s have faced. Likewise, they would use the dps meter to determine who they want over who they need; just because player A is a few points lower in dps than player B, doesn’t necessarily mean that player B is better…

I think a dps meter in a selected area of hotm would be nice. As well as a meter that measured your toughness – vitality – survival rate in a given scenario or attack (a thieves 6k heartseeker for example)

A high dps shouldn’t govern anything, instead used as a comparison tool for that user only; to compare his current build’s damage to his last build’s damage.

100x, this. Having a dedicated area for making builds would be so helpful. It should have the option to eliminate cooldowns on utilities as well, if a player wants to practice a certain skillset over and over. Bringing a DPS meter out of a set area would be bad news though, like Saiyan and so many others have said.

Zerker’s gear is the meta and I support people who want to play that way. They have every right to speed through content if that makes them happy, and I do this too when enough of my friends are online and willing to speedrun. Pugs be pugs though. If I join a casual dungeon group that doesn’t specify speedrun, I make no assumptions about how people are geared/traited. People have really surprised me too, like a cleric’s guardian that plays very well and buffs the whole party and reflects all the things, or a dire necro who holds their own and uses cc appropriately. Runs like those are nowhere near as fast as a dedicated speedrun, for sure, but they’re a lot of fun. I’d hate for people to be discouraged from trying atypical builds just because someone will inevitably look at the DPS meter and tell them they’re “not helping.”

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

DaveGan.8065:

Sorry but no.

Profiling black people is wrong because race is not a choice.

As zerker/non-zerker is a choice every player has more or less equal opportunity (this game does not lack equality of opportunity with gear choice) to make, there is nothing morally or ethically wrong with profiling by gear.

The only thing that remains is whether or not profiling by gear will get you better players on average. Those who believe it does will rightfully profile by it.

The core problem isn’t whether it’s a useful tool though, the core problem is what it does to player interactions.

I got somewhat derailed as I was responding to a post about zerker gear, not one about DPS meters.

On your point, I think “what it does to player interactions” would only be a reason for ANet to not support the use of DPS meters, but not a reason for them to outlaw meters completely.

If all policy was set on how something could be abused or trolled, we wouldn’t have stuff like the Copper/Silver/Gold bosses in the Silverwastes who can fail because of one single troll.

It’s a 2-way calculation, y’know? The potentially griefable silverwastes bosses are a much bigger gain than a loss, and griefing hasn’t seemed to be a problem (in my experience). Meters are a very small gain for a very large loss… They know how these things have worked out in other games, and it’s been a huge dramafarm.

The gain is… minimal. It’s nice for people who take joy in absolute optimization (which is a pretty small group even out of context of the population), and it’s a tool to judge people who ’aren’t good enough to play with’ for others.

You end up with a tool that the vast majority of the players wouldn’t use, a small group would use and enjoy, and a different (and I suspect larger) small group would use to go after other players.

The SW bosses are a net gain, even if taking much more in the way of resources. Meters are at MOST another feature that nobody uses, and more likely a net negative

DPS meter would be something I can see Anet adding to the Gemstore but it’s not a necessary game function.

Verificus.4320:

You guys are steering off course. The point is that people who don’t play meta are bad and should only play with people who are also bad and against meta build. Don’t come near us, don’t join our games if we advertise zerk exp, go play how you want in your own instances. Or make a LFG saying: no zerk all welcome something like that. But don’t try to argue that meta isn’t the best and most optimal way to play. There are no valid arguments to be made, you cannot dispute math and numbers.

Let me correct this for you: “The point is that people who don’t play meta are bad annoying to players who do and should only play with people who are also bad and against don’t care about meta build”.

The build doesn’t make a player, any player, “good” or “bad”. You are “good” when you play masterfully your build, no matter that build, and “bad” when you play horrendously that build for what it is.

No wonder players who have builds that let them make bazillion mistake think they are “good”… You are not good. Your build is just extremely forgiving. My grand-mother could manage it without any problem and you beating ppl who have far less forgiving builds doesn’t make you better than them.

Meta = Jacking up on Power/Crit/Crit% so you can faceroll to rewards

Thats not my game sorry. Ill carry power/crit/crit% to a point, but I will never roll 100% zerker, thats boring and dull. And those that are doing that ARE the bad players. Period.

Why are we even talking about meta, when there’s a nice robust meta thread still on the front page?

It only relates to the meta discussion in so far as people want to use the DPS meter to police meta. The question then isn’t whether the meta is good or justified, but rather whether Arenanet is likely to want people policing each other builds.

(My bet is no, it just adds needless conflict)

DaveGan.8065:

On your point, I think “what it does to player interactions” would only be a reason for ANet to not support the use of DPS meters, but not a reason for them to outlaw meters completely.

True. The reason why the third party dps meters are not allowed is because they read their data from client’ memory, which is a level of integration Anet specifically forbids. From anet’s point of view, this is the same as hacking a client.

sirsquishy.8531:

I will never roll 100% zerker, thats boring and dull. And those that are doing that ARE the bad players. Period.

Yet those “bad” players somehow solo dungeons, fractals, and various bosses in that same zerk gear. Your statement that those who roll 100% zerk are bad is wrong. In fact usually it’s the exact opposite. Period.

Lifestealer.4910:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

DaveGan.8065:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

The zerk speed clearers don’t want to play with those people, and that’s fine, but stop ridiculing them for being different. You don’t know a kitten thing about them!

I know that their ceiling is double digit percentage points lower than that of a zerker.

While most of us are aware of the imperfect correlation between “potential” and “reality”, the double digit percentage ceiling gap is indeed a reality and means a non-zerker has to play that much better to even catch up.

Another brutally honest truth: playing zerker/non-zerker is a choice (as opposed to a skill requirement), and choices have consequences. It’s up to you whether you take “sub-optimal” (in the context of ceiling/potential) as objective truth or subjective ridicule.

PS: You’ll only ever hear this word from me if you try to offer suboptimal advice to someone asking for help in map chat. But, if you do talk about how your tanking/healing/roleplaying setup is somehow optimal, you will no longer be entitled to my silence.

Never claimed to be optimal. Just different, which is a perfectly valid choice to make.

My point still stands. Just because they opt to run Valk over Zerk (for example) doesn’t make them a “bad” or skill-less players. Yes, they do less damage. Yes, they are not running the most efficient, face roll armor available. That still does not make them wrong. It does not make them bad ( although there are those that legitimately are). Which was the whole topic of the original conversation.

Not whether they were right or wrong for trying to join a zerk speed clear that is clearly called out as one. Not whether they do more or less damage. Not whether its optimal or not.

Assuming people are “bad” players just because they don’t run zerk gear is the same as assuming that the black man you pass on the street is absolutely going to mug you. It’s not necessarily true. That is the whole point of this conversation.

I am quite curious as to why you call zerk, a face roll armor?…if anything any gear that makes you noticeably more tanky through passive stats is more facerollish than zerk. A valkyrie thief for instance can make alot more mistakes in a dungeon than a zerk thief, evident in one of my cm runs where a valk thief facetanked a rocket turret without being downed while a zerk thief would be instantly in down state. The same pretty much goes for any fights where their are big hits involved.

I wanted to avoid posting in this forum but here I feel I need to step in. He called zerk a face roll armor because thats exactly what it is. Zerker gear is whats enabling the stack meta. Where you push the boss into a corner and proceed to COMPLETELY NEGATE THE FIGHT by burning through it faster than the game can handle. It is actually bypassing the most dangerous mechanics of most boss fights. Part of the problem is with the dodge mechanic enabling you to actively stand in a stack (which in ANY OTHER GAME would be a 100% horrible idea) the other is the high damage low risk “meta” actively enabling what SHOULD be a high risk high reward playstyle to be a low risk high reward playstyle.

Namely. You will kill the boss FAR before it has even a remote chance of burning through whatever dodge rolls and aegis you can pop. It takes sustaining yourself through a fight completely out of the equation. Which in turn makes control and support useless but thats another story.

If you want to run full zerk groups feel free. But don’t you DARE act like its harder than it is. You aren’t playing the game in the hardest difficulty. Your doing it in the easiest method possible because your farming dungeons not fighting them. You know as well as I that having low toughness and vitality doesn’t mean anything when the boss simply wont have a chance to hit you.

Okay so aside from everyone being too scared to get their feelings hurt and ego deflated over a video game, which is pretty much the only reason why people don’t want one at this point, I personally would enjoy a DPS meter even if it just measures my DPS.

It’s nice for the people who choose to min/max their kitten and enjoy getting the best possible DPS out of their class. I don’t see why a large majority of people constantly suffer because of carebears in these types of situations.

Shadelang.3012:

Lifestealer.4910:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

DaveGan.8065:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

The zerk speed clearers don’t want to play with those people, and that’s fine, but stop ridiculing them for being different. You don’t know a kitten thing about them!

I know that their ceiling is double digit percentage points lower than that of a zerker.

While most of us are aware of the imperfect correlation between “potential” and “reality”, the double digit percentage ceiling gap is indeed a reality and means a non-zerker has to play that much better to even catch up.

Another brutally honest truth: playing zerker/non-zerker is a choice (as opposed to a skill requirement), and choices have consequences. It’s up to you whether you take “sub-optimal” (in the context of ceiling/potential) as objective truth or subjective ridicule.

PS: You’ll only ever hear this word from me if you try to offer suboptimal advice to someone asking for help in map chat. But, if you do talk about how your tanking/healing/roleplaying setup is somehow optimal, you will no longer be entitled to my silence.

Never claimed to be optimal. Just different, which is a perfectly valid choice to make.

My point still stands. Just because they opt to run Valk over Zerk (for example) doesn’t make them a “bad” or skill-less players. Yes, they do less damage. Yes, they are not running the most efficient, face roll armor available. That still does not make them wrong. It does not make them bad ( although there are those that legitimately are). Which was the whole topic of the original conversation.

Not whether they were right or wrong for trying to join a zerk speed clear that is clearly called out as one. Not whether they do more or less damage. Not whether its optimal or not.

Assuming people are “bad” players just because they don’t run zerk gear is the same as assuming that the black man you pass on the street is absolutely going to mug you. It’s not necessarily true. That is the whole point of this conversation.

I am quite curious as to why you call zerk, a face roll armor?…if anything any gear that makes you noticeably more tanky through passive stats is more facerollish than zerk. A valkyrie thief for instance can make alot more mistakes in a dungeon than a zerk thief, evident in one of my cm runs where a valk thief facetanked a rocket turret without being downed while a zerk thief would be instantly in down state. The same pretty much goes for any fights where their are big hits involved.

I wanted to avoid posting in this forum but here I feel I need to step in. He called zerk a face roll armor because thats exactly what it is. Zerker gear is whats enabling the stack meta. Where you push the boss into a corner and proceed to COMPLETELY NEGATE THE FIGHT by burning through it faster than the game can handle. It is actually bypassing the most dangerous mechanics of most boss fights. Part of the problem is with the dodge mechanic enabling you to actively stand in a stack (which in ANY OTHER GAME would be a 100% horrible idea) the other is the high damage low risk “meta” actively enabling what SHOULD be a high risk high reward playstyle to be a low risk high reward playstyle.

Namely. You will kill the boss FAR before it has even a remote chance of burning through whatever dodge rolls and aegis you can pop. It takes sustaining yourself through a fight completely out of the equation. Which in turn makes control and support useless but thats another story.

If you want to run full zerk groups feel free. But don’t you DARE act like its harder than it is. You aren’t playing the game in the hardest difficulty. Your doing it in the easiest method possible because your farming dungeons not fighting them. You know as well as I that having low toughness and vitality doesn’t mean anything when the boss simply wont have a chance to hit you.

Wow.. this kid..

Where is Spoj when you need him. I’m done here..

Verificus.4320:

Shadelang.3012:

snip

Wow.. this kid..

Where is Spoj when you need him. I’m done here..

It’s okay. For some people the Spider Queen in AC is hard endgame content.

At least it’s a step up from loot pinatas world boss trains.

Shadelang.3012:

If you want to run full zerk groups feel free. But don’t you DARE act like its harder than it is. You aren’t playing the game in the hardest difficulty.

Have you fought the Archdiviner in lvl 37+ Fractals as a full melee zerker? In a PuG group even? Are you confident enough to not equip a ranged weapon there?

Tell me all about how your 13379001 group kept him stuck on a corner for so long that you could ignore all his mechanics and not have to read all the tells behind them.

It’s pretty skillful to stand still and tank hits without any reaction.

Spider queen is pretty scary, unlike lupi who is just a q t pie.

Astralporing.1957:

Lifestealer.4910:

I am quite curious as to why you call zerk, a face roll armor?…if anything any gear that makes you noticeably more tanky through passive stats is more facerollish than zerk. A valkyrie thief for instance can make alot more mistakes in a dungeon than a zerk thief

The basis beyond zerker meta is that while indeed, it doesn’t allow you to make as much mistakes as tanky builds, it ends fights so fast that you don’t have time to make any. Lot of perfectly skilled speedrunners will kiss a floor in a pug run, because they depend on that speed, and are unable to function without it. Because their whole “skill” is tied to an execution of a single meta strategy.

Many speedrunners can adapt quite well and in fact, carry pugs group daily even if they all wipe. I am sure there are some people that fits the description you are referring to but those are the unskilled players and has nothing to do with zerk.

@shadelong: You should leave AC or COF for once and find out that zerk burning down boss before they could react while stacking is a myth. Also, all those fights can be done equally easy wearing PVT other gear. The fact that you think stacking automatically makes you immune to damage and trivialize fights also further proves that all you do is easy dungeons.

Do i need to link people the sentinel warrior facetank soloing lupi while not giving a rats kitten.. compared that to a zerk warrior who has to time and manage all his blocks and dodges.

Kitarpa.8143:

Okay so aside from everyone being too scared to get their feelings hurt and ego deflated over a video game, which is pretty much the only reason why people don’t want one at this point, I personally would enjoy a DPS meter even if it just measures my DPS.

It’s nice for the people who choose to min/max their kitten and enjoy getting the best possible DPS out of their class. I don’t see why a large majority of people constantly suffer because of carebears in these types of situations.

Well let’s be serious. It’s not a vast majority, it’s a vanishingly tiny minority.

And worse, of that minority, some would use it in disruptive ways.

They’re not going to make a tool that hurts their product.

People against dps meter are having tunnel vision…

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

It that were true (“getting things done”) then it really would not matter what the person was wearing, as it has been repeatedly pointed out that the game can be played naked.

I’m sorry about not specifying – it seems that even though i’ve done so many times above you missed the general idea. Still I should have specified.

Getting things done as fast as possible and with minimum or zero hassle.
By my initial things of “getting things done” I meant easy and fast rewards with no struggle to acquire them but it seems this concept is lost on some.

Again I do understand what you mean about choice not negating skill – not denying that.

The way I see it is skill is irrelevant since certain players demand certain things.
Opting to play a different way diminishes your potential as “useful” in the sense of participating to make that run as fast as possible.

Reward-driven people such as myself don’t really care much for anything but the reward – so if someone is not as useful as possible in participating to my party and getting those reward – regardless of reason, I won’t want him/her in the run.

Also most of the ridicule comes not from being different alone. Most of the ridicule and hostile attitude I’ve seen directed against them comes not from their choice of play but their choice of who to play with.
The main moment one of these people gets made fun of, told off or whatever is when he joins a party where he is not wanted against the other party members’ wishes.

Personally I just kick and move on without saying a word if someone joins and isn’t what I want – but there are others that don’t do such and prefer to make fun or whatnot. Not saying it’s right – but why were you there in the first place?

Why are we still talking about “ridicule”? lol…

The only 2 times I would ever ridicule you (anyone) for being non-zerker:

1.) You join my “80 exp’d zerkers” party as a non-zerker. Sorry, but if you can’t read/follow, I’d be justified in far more than ridicule, and kicking you at the last boss would not be out of the question as you were never legitimately a member of my party in the first place.

2.) Someone asks in map chat what a good/optimal build/gear setup to run is and you chime in with some defensive/healing crap. (I probably wouldn’t even ridicule here, as much as just mention that anything not maximizing self/party DPS is simply suboptimal.)

Is someone ridiculing you outside of one of those two situations? Then that person does not speak for me, and probably not even for the most of the filthy elitist zerker cesspool.

sirsquishy.8531:

Meta = Jacking up on Power/Crit/Crit% so you can faceroll to rewards

Thats not my game sorry. Ill carry power/crit/crit% to a point, but I will never roll 100% zerker, thats boring and dull. And those that are doing that ARE the bad players. Period.

So you add defense stats you don’t need (since you ARE good) for…. the fun of tanking hits? Griefing your party? Help me, I am at a loss.

Here is the simple fact: if you know how to dodge, block, evade, blind and position properly you don’t need defensive stats. It takes some combination of skill and experience to block, evade, blind and position properly. It take no skill to put on tanky gear and eat attacks. It’s not that you HAVE to wear glassy gear, or that you glassy gear makes you good, but that if you are good you should want it so you can play to your fullest potential.

This thread has been hijacked by off topic discussions of elitism, dungeon runs, and gear choices. None of which is actually about the topic of a performance meter. As I keep saying repeatedly, there’s more to this game than running in an instance. WvW and sPvP players could use a performance tool especially.