Guild Wars 2

I have not met a user who genuinely wants a DPS race on all major enemies where there is a timer involved, but I also know a lot of users who just want to spam 1 and maybe 2 through out the fight. I don’t see an easy solution where “Eff u, I do wat I wan” mentality exists in our culture and our community.

Mesket.5728:

Galen Grey.4709:

Doesnt duration automatically increase potency of a boon though? if the mights you apply last for 10s instead of say 8s doesnt that mean your might buff is now 20% more potent?

Not really, they way the game works now lets you stack 25 mights without struggle and you don’t even need 1% boon duration to make it. We are again the land where on paper their idea was not bad but it was implemented wrong. Still, I think support need a stat that allow players specialize into it and if it was me, I would replace healing for it. If they truly want to remove healers as a role then why do we have a stat for it?

Galen Grey.4709:

Thing is removing some dps and introducing support and control isnt removing something important and introducing something useless, you’re removing one element and adding another.

In the equation it’s not the same. That is why zerk groups are more efficient. Damage stats scale ridiculously better and there are no other stats to increase other roles.

I think the OP has a point and I agree with him. The current game only cares for one role and its damage. The other roles are not developed. If you take all the gear combos and split the stats into groups you will find that most of the if not all falls into 3 categories: Damage, Tank and Healer (trinity brought up by their own stat selection while designing the game). The game really looks like they worked in different departments with poor communication between each other.

which profession can keep 25 stacks of might on permanently on itself without an effort? Dont think this is the case with any profession really. Even with full boon duration dont think its possible for any singular character to do it especially if they’re gear towards dps

You misunderstood what they’re trying to do, they dont want to eliminate the healer role, they dont want to eliminate any role, the only thing they’re trying to eliminate is dedicated roles. IE its no longer just a healer who does nothing but heal, its now a support role. if you want to keep an ally alive healing by itself will not do, you need to put in some support and crowd control in with the healing for maximum suvivability of an ally. etc…

why would you say damage scales ridiculously better then anything else? If you spec your character for maximum damage you’re getting what 100% more damage? lets compare with say if you spec full boon duration. With the right build you can achieve twice the duration you normally get on your boons. that means full stacks of might that last twice as long which can give 25% extra damage BUT its not just on yourself its on 5 characters which essentially means 125% increase in damage and thats just from might. you also have quickness, retaliation, protection, aegis, fury, stability, vigor,regeneration that benefit from your build. So you’re making up for the loss of damage to your group by boosting theirs with a little extra (not just the extra 25% for the 5th might stack but also from yourself because lets not forget if you spec all out support you still do 50% of the damage) in addition you double the boons you give out that add more to the damage allies do as well as reduces the damage they receive.

not sure why you’d feel support scales worst!

Again they didnt want to remove tanking or healing just tanking and healing as a dedicated role. You can still tank and you can still heal but on their own they’re not enough tanking needs to be augmented with healing and interrupting of damage while healing needs to be augemented with crowd control and protection buffs to be fully effective.

Mesket.5728:

Follow me on this thought, in GW2 3 roles where promoted: Damage, Control and Support… where the other classic 2 roles (heal and tank) were excluded. I find this amazing and I would’ve loved to see that implemented. For some cosmic reason I can’t figure out why, they placed stats for the roles excluded (tank and heals) on gear but there is not a single stat that works for support and control (consider healing aside from support if healing is not a role). This is the big design flaw I always criticize. Why are there no stat that increase the potency of my buffs?

It’s this way because boons, defensive and offensive, were used as part of the balancing formula for professions. Necros get a larger life bar and a second life bar, but get fewer boons. Guardians get a smaller life bar and more boons. Tie boon potency to gear and you’ve taken a step down a road that leads either to: a dedicated boon character’s boons are too strong; or a non-dedicated boon character’s boons are too weak to serve their intended purpose.

It’s this way because damage, control and support were not envisioned to be roles one geared for and stayed in in a dedicated fashion. ANet chose not to replace two dedicated, required roles with two new, dedicated, required roles. It’s not a design flaw, it’s working as intended.

Harper is right, the current GW2 game design offers the maximum freedom possible. Moving back to more restrictive character builds would be a step in the wrong direction.

For all the whining about “toxicity” I rarely actually see any in-game outside of those stupid poison krait mobs Anet somehow thought was a good idea. Generally it goes like this:

1) A posts “zerk only” LFG.
2) B isn’t a zerk but joins anyway. Either:
3a) A probably suspects B isn’t a zerk but puts up with it so long as he’s willing to put up the pretense.
3b) A asks B to ping gear. B either refuses and leaves or pings the wrong gear and is kicked.
4) Both players move on with their lives.

You only encounter “toxicity” when you’re making it clear you’er not really into the whole “teamwork” thing and even then you sometimes don’t get kicked. I once went into COF with a bearbow ranger, pinged my cleric gear from the start, spammed knockbacks to move mobs out of stacks, and ran around aggroing nearby mobs and pulling them into the party instead of fighting the boss and I STILL didn’t get kicked.

Mesket.5728:

My point wasn’t that UO was better where GW2 fail. It was that GW2 didn’t bring something new by removing the holy trinity and providing players freedom to build as they want.

Well the “holy trinity” really didn’t exist in MMOs until EverQuest came along anyway. It existed in tabletop (D&D notably) but not so much in the MMOs up before EQ. Then it began to gather steam since it’s an interesting design puzzle to leave for players – “you now have to figure out how to fill your party up, but if you aren’t careful then your party won’t be as efficient or even work too well”.

It is something as old, probably older, as the example provided (UO). But, the fact that we can actually compare them and open debate on which one is better, sums up to my point… why are we comparing games almost 2 decades apart? (design wise, of course not mechanic and graphic wise)

Because age doesn’t translate to good or bad design choices purely on whether they’re newer or older? Also because I’ve been paying attention to the specific design choices of games for the last couple years after getting to talk with some game devs and hearing their reasoning for why certain decisions are made?

Or it could be because after EverQuest really put the trinity idea into MMOs (DPS, healer, tank), it’s been somewhat standard for most of them? So by talking about a game older than that, we get to something before the trinity, before the formula.

And finally, I’m not quite debating which one was better . . . honestly, neither of them gets my vote for which one was more fun to work with. I had much more fun with a WC/Krannan/Shally character than I did with my UO mage.

Galen Grey.4709:

sorudo.9054:

Galen Grey.4709:

kristof.7182:

Just play with necro mark AoE-spam and then play as stricte support role and you’ll understand.

Irony of Ironies is Staff isnt a damage focused weapon, dagger is the Major Necro DPS..

Staff is a support/Crowd Control weapon primarily.

So Ironically the example you just gave is how play Support / Control can be pretty rewarding too.

then why am i doing more damage with my staff?
no really, what i do with my staff against whole groups makes dagger pale in comparison, and daggers are single target focused.

Dagger is indeed single target focus but not scepter / dagger. Add in Epidemic to the mix and you shouldnt be doing more damage then if you were using your staff.

Not that staff is useless, I love it kittene it a lot myself but mainly for support and control if your intention is to do raw damage staff isnt really the best choice.

scepter is really horrible, it agro’s more and more enemies without even a shred of control.
that’s why the staff is superior, you can control what you hit and see where you aim.
the better way to use DPS is by using dagger/horn, with that you can do both single and AOE DPS in one go, add well of corruption and even objects can be destroyed within seconds and bosses can’t do a thing to stop you from doing DPS (beside KD/KB of course)

If somebody says that PVE in this game isnt oriented on dps probably didnt play too much . Yes it is , it doesnt make sense to use something different then berzerk gear when every mob,boss can melt before it even attacks !? Just look at example of graveling breeder from ac . As dps you can kill it in one combo and graveling even wont touch you , but as tank,heal you can start fight , after few seconds you have :25 bleed, hundreds small gravelings and you are finally dead . Zerker isnt the only one problem but mostly stupid mob ai that let thme go to the corner like lambs to the slaughter . Better ai, bigger dmg modifer for mobs and zerkers will melt in open fight . It would be still possible to finish every content in full zerker party but it wont be the most efficient way and they will wipe a lot . It will force people to look for different builds and tactics but who cares ? lets go speedrun ls in 50 min and come back to forum .

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I once went into COF with a bearbow ranger, pinged my cleric gear from the start, spammed knockbacks to move mobs out of stacks, and ran around aggroing nearby mobs and pulling them into the party instead of fighting the boss and I STILL didn’t get kicked.

LOL. I’d love to see a video of that. Did the pugs not even notice what you were doing or just assume that you were such a noob that they had mercy and carried you?

William Bradley Knight.2609:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I once went into COF with a bearbow ranger, pinged my cleric gear from the start, spammed knockbacks to move mobs out of stacks, and ran around aggroing nearby mobs and pulling them into the party instead of fighting the boss and I STILL didn’t get kicked.

LOL. I’d love to see a video of that. Did the pugs not even notice what you were doing or just assume that you were such a noob that they had mercy and carried you?

I’d assume “carrying” is a foreign concept to that group of Pugs. They let him do his thing while they did their’s. Imo, the dungeons were a lot nicer before “carry” became one of the dungeoneer’s favourite buzzwords. You could contribute in your own way and no one was breathing down your neck like a nosey supervisor.

Dual.8953:

I’d assume “carrying” is a foreign concept to that group of Pugs. They let him do his thing while they did their’s. Imo, the dungeons were a lot nicer before “carry” became one of the dungeoneer’s favourite buzzwords. You could contribute in your own way and no one was breathing down your neck like a nosey supervisor.

So you’re basically talking about a situation from before Everquest or Ultima Online? That’s almost 18 years now, you’d think you wouldn’t bother with something that annoys you for that long.

VOLTCIEAGE.3029:

If somebody says that PVE in this game isnt oriented on dps probably didnt play too much . Yes it is , it doesnt make sense to use something different then berzerk gear when every mob,boss can melt before it even attacks !? Just look at example of graveling breeder from ac . As dps you can kill it in one combo and graveling even wont touch you , but as tank,heal you can start fight , after few seconds you have :25 bleed, hundreds small gravelings and you are finally dead . Zerker isnt the only one problem but mostly stupid mob ai that let thme go to the corner like lambs to the slaughter . Better ai, bigger dmg modifer for mobs and zerkers will melt in open fight . It would be still possible to finish every content in full zerker party but it wont be the most efficient way and they will wipe a lot . It will force people to look for different builds and tactics but who cares ? lets go speedrun ls in 50 min and come back to forum .

Just saying. You’re supposed to interrupt the summon combo. You should never, ever see any mobs from the breeder, even if you’re going in with Nomad for laughs.

Ditto for the Dredge Mining Suits.

And Risen Krait Hypnoss.

And Veteran Risen Acolytes.

[Insert Summoner Mob Here].

Etc.

If running T5 dry top, you should know about the Moa and Interrupting its disengage mechanic as well.

Rangersix.1754:

Dual.8953:

I’d assume “carrying” is a foreign concept to that group of Pugs. They let him do his thing while they did their’s. Imo, the dungeons were a lot nicer before “carry” became one of the dungeoneer’s favourite buzzwords. You could contribute in your own way and no one was breathing down your neck like a nosey supervisor.

So you’re basically talking about a situation from before Everquest or Ultima Online? That’s almost 18 years now, you’d think you wouldn’t bother with something that annoys you for that long.

No, I’m talking about the first few months after beta. Or did you quote the wrong person?

Dual.8953:

William Bradley Knight.2609:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I once went into COF with a bearbow ranger, pinged my cleric gear from the start, spammed knockbacks to move mobs out of stacks, and ran around aggroing nearby mobs and pulling them into the party instead of fighting the boss and I STILL didn’t get kicked.

LOL. I’d love to see a video of that. Did the pugs not even notice what you were doing or just assume that you were such a noob that they had mercy and carried you?

I’d assume “carrying” is a foreign concept to that group of Pugs. They let him do his thing while they did their’s. Imo, the dungeons were a lot nicer before “carry” became one of the dungeoneer’s favourite buzzwords. You could contribute in your own way and no one was breathing down your neck like a nosey supervisor.

Bearbow, clerics, knocking mobs out of damage, and intentionally aggroing enemies is “contributing?” That group was indeed nice. Or they were so bad they didn’t notice how bad he was playing. ;-)

Anet screwed up and squeezed diversity out of the game.

That’s what people want – diversity of build.

I don’t know that they’ll bother to change this, since no one actually shows up to work at Anet.

The problem with the meta is it’s boring.

If the game must completely revolve around DPS, then how about shaking things up by introducing diversity into DPS?

Some games have things like Fire Damage, Cold Damage, Lightning Damage, Arcane Damage, Nature Damage, etc.

There’s DoT, and AoE (both ranged and PBAOE).

Anet could have gone that route – a pure DPS game, with many different kinds of damage, that work off different resists and different side effects (conditions).

Instead, we got a one size fits all system.

And this leads to monotony.

Many people simply want a less monotonous game. Because that leads to tactical thinking. It leads to having to make choices during combat.

Combat grows stale in GW2 because of this.

Will they ever do anything about it?

I highly doubt it.

sorudo.9054:

Galen Grey.4709:

sorudo.9054:

Galen Grey.4709:

kristof.7182:

Just play with necro mark AoE-spam and then play as stricte support role and you’ll understand.

Irony of Ironies is Staff isnt a damage focused weapon, dagger is the Major Necro DPS..

Staff is a support/Crowd Control weapon primarily.

So Ironically the example you just gave is how play Support / Control can be pretty rewarding too.

then why am i doing more damage with my staff?
no really, what i do with my staff against whole groups makes dagger pale in comparison, and daggers are single target focused.

Dagger is indeed single target focus but not scepter / dagger. Add in Epidemic to the mix and you shouldnt be doing more damage then if you were using your staff.

Not that staff is useless, I love it kittene it a lot myself but mainly for support and control if your intention is to do raw damage staff isnt really the best choice.

scepter is really horrible, it agro’s more and more enemies without even a shred of control.
that’s why the staff is superior, you can control what you hit and see where you aim.
the better way to use DPS is by using dagger/horn, with that you can do both single and AOE DPS in one go, add well of corruption and even objects can be destroyed within seconds and bosses can’t do a thing to stop you from doing DPS (beside KD/KB of course)

I prefer staff too but specifically because its got tons of support and control capability. Keep in mind my reply wasnt about which weapon is better or more fun to use. Just that Staff is primarily a support and control weapon as opposite to raw DPS.

ipan.4356:

Anet screwed up and squeezed diversity out of the game.

That’s what people want – diversity of build.

I don’t know that they’ll bother to change this, since no one actually shows up to work at Anet.

The problem with the meta is it’s boring.

If the game must completely revolve around DPS, then how about shaking things up by introducing diversity into DPS?

Some games have things like Fire Damage, Cold Damage, Lightning Damage, Arcane Damage, Nature Damage, etc.

There’s DoT, and AoE (both ranged and PBAOE).

Anet could have gone that route – a pure DPS game, with many different kinds of damage, that work off different resists and different side effects (conditions).

Instead, we got a one size fits all system.

And this leads to monotony.

Many people simply want a less monotonous game. Because that leads to tactical thinking. It leads to having to make choices during combat.

Combat grows stale in GW2 because of this.

Will they ever do anything about it?

I highly doubt it.

You’ve got about 80 different skills, 21 different armor prefixes, about 85 traits making about 150k possible builds so please how did they squeeze diversity out of the game exactly? If you find the meta boring just dont play the meta easy.

Why does a game have to put a gun to one’s head so that that person plays what they enjoy? Does a game have to use stupid artificial limitations so that suddenly a player recognizes they have great diversity?

There is already fire based damage and ice based damage in the game does the game have to make it obvious by having some mobs get more damage from one or the other for players to suddenly realize ohh look I got water and ice spells too not just fire?

Does the game have to make people face certain dead if they dont cleanse conditions so that they realize there is a whole set of support tools available to them? Cant the modern MMO player do anything without hand holding?