Guild Wars 2

Good job OP, couldn’t have said it better myself.

I’ve put forth this suggestion in another thread. Award tokens after completing each event(bell choir, jumping puzzle, snowball fight, and infinitarium). Have each of the collectibles have a token cost. Since the snowglobe took 3 successful jumping puzzle completions charge 3 tokens for it….. etc. etc. This I think would be a reasonable way to go about earning the skin. That way you could do the events you want and still earn the skin. After all isn’t the game about entertainment?

Dashingsteel.3410:

To get Winter’s Presence you are required to finish the winter jumping puzzle 3 times. I believe that would be a platforming requirement.

And how is Winter’s Presence part of the game world? Is it necessary to continue a Story? A Map? Access a Point of Interest, HP, or Vista? A Dungeon? A Fractal?
It’s a skin!

Not having Winter’s Presence does not in any way bar you from experiencing the game, so just like the other platforms which are a sideshow, just skip it.

EDIT

I’ve put forth this suggestion in another thread. Award tokens after completing each event(bell choir, jumping puzzle, snowball fight, and infinitarium). Have each of the collectibles have a token cost. Since the snowglobe took 3 successful jumping puzzle completions charge 3 tokens for it….. etc. etc. This I think would be a reasonable way to go about earning the skin. That way you could do the events you want and still earn the skin. After all isn’t the game about entertainment?

I could be behind this. It is perfectly reasonable on the grounds that the difficulty of achieving the shoulders is quantifiably as difficult as it is now.

One of the most enjoyable things in GW2 in my opinion is the customization to characters appearance. While I don’t expect to have every legendary in the game. I do like to collect the “special event or festival items and skins”. This would be a nice skin to put on one of my characters. Previous to HoT and its Mario Wars 2 approach I probably would have been able to achieve it. I know the world doesn’t end because I don’t get it. I just want Anet to understand that customers aren’t happy with some of their changes

If players keep having to “skip” the cool stuff. More players might skip throwing money at the screen.

Zephyra.4709:

This is a delicate subject, indeed.

While I too, have empathy towards those that literally can not do this collection due to physical impairment(s) etc, I can not see any constructive alternative suggestions by OP in regards to obtaining specific items.

• instead of completing Bell Choir, another alternative could be to defeat X amount of creatures OR complete X treasure hunt to create the item required in the Mystic Forge

That is one suggestion I can think of, yet it trails back to what I originally wanted to mention in regards to rewards being locked behind certain things.

We have mystic forge recipes, treasure hunts, slay X of this or craft X of that… Now all of a sudden we are delivered with a Jumping Puzzle to complete and I think this may be the devs wanting to try out something different other than the usual requirements for things.

Change is a good thing from the same old typical routine.

It is unfortunate that yes, it may well and truly be impossible for those with certain disabilities to complete such a task but I agree in sense – The collection requirements could have been more alternative friendly.

I am open minded about this topic in general but I also agree with what others are stating in this thread in regards to rewards. Some things just aren’t supposed to be handed out to everyone.

Luckily, this specific collection item is obtainable outside of the seemingly impossible. It is buyable off the Trading Post.

A hefty cost but it is there as an alternative option if you seriously want that item.

The month is supposed to be full of joy & good times, it is unfortunate that these issues have impacted that in a negative way.

At this point, “constructive alternatives” are all but irrelevant. The chances of Anet doing anything about this beyond tweaking some number values (which is already an insanely low chance) is probably something like 0.0001%. Even if they cared enough to bother, they’d have to do the work and push it out very quickly, disrupting the existing atmosphere in the process and upsetting people who already spent loads and/or invested loads of time to get the reward.

Which could be avoided if they would give us a public Test Server and let us see stuff like this a week or two BEFORE it gets published to the actual game. So many problems throughout the lifetime of this game could have been avoided with a public test server and getting feedback early enough to do something about it.

That aside, the solution would be pretty simple. Multiple achievements that give the needed special items for each one, particularly achievements that span different aspects of the game and paths that are easier for people who spend a lot of time in a particular part of the game (e.g. PvPer gonna have an easier time with PvP version, WvWer easier time with WvW version).

This, of course, goes against funneling everything into Wintersday content, but it’s foolish to design a system that all but forces people into the holiday content if they want the reward (and is a slog at the same time). You want them to do it because it’s fun and it’s the holidays, or else it becomes a chore and they get so sick of the content that they hate how recycled it is the next year. If you allow them to play the holidays their own way and still get the reward(s) out of it, they can dip in and out of the holiday-specific content as they desire and when next year comes around, they won’t feel any reason to complain about it being recycled because they never felt obligated to participate in it in the first place.

Dashingsteel.3410:

One of the most enjoyable things in GW2 in my opinion is the customization to characters appearance.

That is still not content. This is not content locked behind other content. This is a skin locked behind content. Customising your characters appearance is not content. It’s enjoyable to do, yes. It is pretty much all the end-game we have, yes, but it is not content.

Well… What should I say? I am disabled. For most of the stuff ingame it doesn’t really make a difference. But I can’t do the wintersday JP for example, just like most of the others. I can’t do the majority of the oh so fun adventure minigames in HoT – not even for bronze – and they’re a requirement for mastery points AND collections. (So no Bo for me, thanks!)

And thats just some of the things. That’s frustrating enough. Having people telling me it is so easy and well I don’t have to play and stuff doesn’t make it better.

At least for the Wintersday JP I found a nice person doing that for me, just like I got to know some nice people that helped me with other things. (Couldn’T find help for the adventure problem though, as they’re just open after doing x, y or z on the maps)

If I wouldn’t have help, I’d have given up on the game already. I understand that disabled people or those with other problems in their RL are a minority in the comunity and that Anet can’t always listen to them. Still, it feels bad to be pushed aside like that, especially for some holiday stuff or something that is required to go on.

I’ll never have my masteries done in HoT – so I basically gave up on playing it that much. It’s sad but that’s how it is. There’s no point in doing stuff you can’t, just to become more and more frustrated.

Oh and… for people stating that some things should just go to “the elite” of “us”… Really? Do you have so little self esteem that you need to define yourself over a game? I think that’s the most sad opinion of all.

I really don’t care if everyone has something or not – it’ll disappear after a few weeks anyway, because new stuff is coming. Everyone deserves it – After all it’s just a game! Some people seem to forget about that while losing themselves in the virtual world.

And just to make it clear: I already got Winter’s presence! So I’m not crying at all, and I got it thanks to the help of the comunity.

Where did I say it was content?

I personally think that exclusivity of stuff should stay relatively same over time. I understand that festivals are meant to be time-limited and I don’t mind that but:

1) All festival items should be available next year.

2) Effort needed to spend during the festival should be low.

I’m not saying that items should be easy to get, just that you should be able to work on them at your own pace.

Dashingsteel.3410:

Where did I say it was content?

This is what you’ve been missing from that CIndeR has been trying to say. I never said that you said it was content. I’m merely pointing out the what you’re completely missing.

CIndeR.3479:

I completely agree that if actual game content were gated behind a platform, like part of a map or something then you would be absolutely right, I’d be right there with you. But there is nothing but a single skin designed to be acquired only by the most elite of us gated behind that platform…one skin…and people are losing their minds over that. Its ridiculous…

CIndeR.3479:

Dashingsteel.3410:

To get Winter’s Presence you are required to finish the winter jumping puzzle 3 times. I believe that would be a platforming requirement.

And how is Winter’s Presence part of the game world? Is it necessary to continue a Story? A Map? Access a Point of Interest, HP, or Vista? A Dungeon? A Fractal?
It’s a skin!

Not having Winter’s Presence does not in any way bar you from experiencing the game, so just like the other platforms which are a sideshow, just skip it.

Also, it helps if you quote the person you’re replying to, otherwise your comment can get lost.

Just want to remind you all that by buying HoT and spending money on the gem store, you are supporting ANet continuing to do this.

Also, I find the OP’s defense of “having empathy” to make an argument primarily attacking the playerbase for ANet’s design choices to be shallow and wickedly inconsiderate.

His argument about content had nothing to do with my previous comments. It isn’t that I missed what he was saying.

Whether a skin is content doesn’t matter. What matters is the change in philosophy that gw2 has made on platforming.

Here is my experience.

1) checked out the item. I thought it was pretty cool looking.
2) looked up how to achieve it on Dulfy
3) quickly realized it would be a grind and rather frustrating with the JP stuff. I have no problem doing JP but it does take me awhile.
4) weighed the pros and cons
5) Decided my gaming time would be more enjoyable spent doing something else because even tho this is a cool item, the grind would be too boring. The time investment and grind did not seem worth it to me so I am passing on this item.

Now if you happen to be a snowman I can see your point. You really need this item so you don’t melt in the jungle. In that case maybe I would advocate for some nerf.

Andraus.3874:

Now if you happen to be a snowman I can see your point. You really need this item so you don’t melt in the jungle. In that case maybe I would advocate for some nerf.

This guy

But yeah your experience was identical to mine in every way (right down to Dulfy). I’m actually pretty sure I couldn’t do it even if I tried, not enough time to play everyday for that many beverages lol. But hey I’m enjoying the money I’m getting from selling the Wintersday gifts

Shayne Hawke.9160:

Also, I find the OP’s defense of “having empathy” to make an argument primarily attacking the playerbase for ANet’s design choices to be shallow and wickedly inconsiderate.

)-_-)

Is this not exactly what people are doing when they tell off people with disabilities for wanting options?

I don’t see how the OP attacked anyone. Admonished, maybe. Chided, perhaps. Attacked is a strong word. He is primarily asking for people to be considerate of the problems of other people. If that’s an attack to you, then maybe you have some problems being considerate. I’m not saying you do. I’m just saying that’s where it seems to lead if that is how it comes across to you.

I think the argument is simple: there should be alternatives to getting an item or achievement or even progression that caters to all play styles.

The thing to remember here is that this game was marketed that way: as an MMO that caters to nearly all iterations of a gamer. The game even allows non-paying gamers to access stuff in the Gem Store through the exchange system. You might claim the exchange rate can be unfair at times, but at least the option is there.

When you start gating content behind things a certain iteration of gamer can’t or won’t do (for various reasons that should all be valid regardless; who are you to judge?), then that becomes a problem.

If some players are complaining about equal-access being unfair, then wouldn’t it be an easier solution to give players who (can) go the extra distance better rewards?

Focus on the discussion’s objective: a piece of gear that can only be got by doing a specific activity, and three times at that.

Would that we all could easily do a three-dimensional motion puzzle, or the time AND patience to do so.

But we don’t.

And that’s why some of us play this game. Because, before, we didn’t need to do these things.

Now we do.

Kampilan.3895:

If some players are complaining about equal-access being unfair, then wouldn’t it be an easier solution to give players who (can) go the extra distance better rewards?

No you can’t. This would make perfect sense and is definitely the solution. BUT that is exactly what is going on and look at all the Issues. Winter Presence IS a reward for people that go the “extra distance”. There’s plenty of other things to do or get with Winters day. This isn’t the only thing. It is definitely one of the coolest things but not the only thing. And since it is one of the coolest things it is harder to get and therefore players that go the extra distance get it.

Andraus.3874:

No you can’t. This would make perfect sense and is definitely the solution. BUT that is exactly what is going on and look at all the Issues. Winter Presence IS a reward for people that go the “extra distance”. There’s plenty of other things to do or get with Winters day. This isn’t the only thing. It is definitely one of the coolest things but not the only thing. And since it is one of the coolest things it is harder to get and therefore players that go the extra distance get it.

)“-”)

What other things are there to get? It seems to be the only skin other than the green ones that you can get dirt cheap year round off the TP.

Andraus.3874:

Kampilan.3895:

If some players are complaining about equal-access being unfair, then wouldn’t it be an easier solution to give players who (can) go the extra distance better rewards?

No you can’t. This would make perfect sense and is definitely the solution. BUT that is exactly what is going on and look at all the Issues. Winter Presence IS a reward for people that go the “extra distance”. There’s plenty of other things to do or get with Winters day. This isn’t the only thing. It is definitely one of the coolest things but not the only thing. And since it is one of the coolest things it is harder to get and therefore players that go the extra distance get it.

This sounds like a reasonable response, in reality it’s just not true. Paying to get something is not “going the extra mile” and anyone who pays can get the item, most other people will not be able to. People shouldn’t be punished for not being able to play thegame 24 hours a day and they shouldn’t be punished for not paying, especially since this game is B2P. If anet want to put the shoulders behind a paywall, then they could and should do that.

Please don’t pretend that the imbimber achievement requires any effort. It doesn’t. It just requires money and/or no job because parent’s credit card. Everyone else is excluded.

wolfyrik.2017:

Andraus.3874:

Kampilan.3895:

If some players are complaining about equal-access being unfair, then wouldn’t it be an easier solution to give players who (can) go the extra distance better rewards?

No you can’t. This would make perfect sense and is definitely the solution. BUT that is exactly what is going on and look at all the Issues. Winter Presence IS a reward for people that go the “extra distance”. There’s plenty of other things to do or get with Winters day. This isn’t the only thing. It is definitely one of the coolest things but not the only thing. And since it is one of the coolest things it is harder to get and therefore players that go the extra distance get it.

This sounds like a reasonable response, in reality it’s just not true. Paying to get something is not “going the extra mile” and anyone who pays can get the item, most other people will not be able to. People shouldn’t be punished for not being able to play thegame 24 hours a day and they shouldn’t be punished for not paying, especially since this game is B2P. If anet want to put the shoulders behind a paywall, then they could and should do that.

Please don’t pretend that the imbimber achievement requires any effort. It doesn’t. It just requires money and/or no job because parent’s credit card. Everyone else is excluded.

Of course that’s how a lot of things are in this game. It’s Anets model. Just like legendary weapons. So you want this behind something like a raid then? People are upset about doing the JP three times. Putting it behind a raid would be worse. I never said it takes skill. It takes lots of grind or money. And some JP skill. In this case and like at Halloween, people who go the extra distance are just grinding a lot or spending real life money.

And this isn’t a punishment. It’s just a flashy item. Unless of course you are a snowman.

Andraus.3874:

wolfyrik.2017:

Andraus.3874:

Kampilan.3895:

If some players are complaining about equal-access being unfair, then wouldn’t it be an easier solution to give players who (can) go the extra distance better rewards?

No you can’t. This would make perfect sense and is definitely the solution. BUT that is exactly what is going on and look at all the Issues. Winter Presence IS a reward for people that go the “extra distance”. There’s plenty of other things to do or get with Winters day. This isn’t the only thing. It is definitely one of the coolest things but not the only thing. And since it is one of the coolest things it is harder to get and therefore players that go the extra distance get it.

This sounds like a reasonable response, in reality it’s just not true. Paying to get something is not “going the extra mile” and anyone who pays can get the item, most other people will not be able to. People shouldn’t be punished for not being able to play thegame 24 hours a day and they shouldn’t be punished for not paying, especially since this game is B2P. If anet want to put the shoulders behind a paywall, then they could and should do that.

Please don’t pretend that the imbimber achievement requires any effort. It doesn’t. It just requires money and/or no job because parent’s credit card. Everyone else is excluded.

Of course that’s how a lot of things are in this game. It’s Anets model. Just like legendary weapons. So you want this behind something like a raid then? People are upset about doing the JP three times. Putting it behind a raid would be worse. I never said it takes skill. It takes lots of grind or money. And some JP skill. In this case and like at Halloween, people who go the extra distance are just grinding a lot or spending real life money.

And this isn’t a punishment. It’s just a flashy item. Unless of course you are a snowman.

Well… it’s wintersday, isn’kitten (IT becomes kitten? Nice to know xD)
The Halloween thingy can be done anytime you want as long as you got your bat wings which wasn’t a problem. Winter’s Presence can only be done during wintersday – the most expensive and probably last achievement for that is bound to that time, because in January, it’ll be gone.

Now – It’s Christmas time outside the virtual world – People spend lots of time with their families and friends, shop gifts and all that stuff, make preparations for their xmas parties and what so ever. The lonely ones have the time. Should they be rewarded for not having any social contacts? The rich ones have the money – yeah, should they be rewarded for having money, while others can’t effort it?

CHRISTMAS or WINTERSDAY is about GIVING to those who are not so privileged, it’s about love for your family and friends, it’s about being together and having FUN.
The whole achievement thing destroys the SPIRIT of Xmas or Wintersday.

They should have made it possible for anyone to get, at least it’s a holiday item, really. (I know Halloween is a holiday too – at least in the US and GB, but as I said you can complete that item anytime)

For the spirit of Wintersday they should have considered offering it to every player in the game.

I mean… can anyone remember the first year of Wintersday? We were actually given a GIFT that was really worth it back them. Everyone was happy. That followed the spirit of Wintersday. This year (it’s my 4th Wintersday) it just doesn’t feel right.

What happened to the game anyway? Skins were something you could get ingame with little effort – it’s only eyecandy anyway, but nowadays? Either you have to spend insane amounts of money on the Gemstore or you’re forced into ridiculous achievements you wouldn’t have done otherwise. And some of them cost you even more money. Does anyone really like that? I don’t.

kuscheldrow.6415:

Andraus.3874:

wolfyrik.2017:

Andraus.3874:

Kampilan.3895:

If some players are complaining about equal-access being unfair, then wouldn’t it be an easier solution to give players who (can) go the extra distance better rewards?

No you can’t. This would make perfect sense and is definitely the solution. BUT that is exactly what is going on and look at all the Issues. Winter Presence IS a reward for people that go the “extra distance”. There’s plenty of other things to do or get with Winters day. This isn’t the only thing. It is definitely one of the coolest things but not the only thing. And since it is one of the coolest things it is harder to get and therefore players that go the extra distance get it.

This sounds like a reasonable response, in reality it’s just not true. Paying to get something is not “going the extra mile” and anyone who pays can get the item, most other people will not be able to. People shouldn’t be punished for not being able to play thegame 24 hours a day and they shouldn’t be punished for not paying, especially since this game is B2P. If anet want to put the shoulders behind a paywall, then they could and should do that.

Please don’t pretend that the imbimber achievement requires any effort. It doesn’t. It just requires money and/or no job because parent’s credit card. Everyone else is excluded.

Of course that’s how a lot of things are in this game. It’s Anets model. Just like legendary weapons. So you want this behind something like a raid then? People are upset about doing the JP three times. Putting it behind a raid would be worse. I never said it takes skill. It takes lots of grind or money. And some JP skill. In this case and like at Halloween, people who go the extra distance are just grinding a lot or spending real life money.

And this isn’t a punishment. It’s just a flashy item. Unless of course you are a snowman.

Well… it’s wintersday, isn’kitten (IT becomes kitten? Nice to know xD)
The Halloween thingy can be done anytime you want as long as you got your bat wings which wasn’t a problem. Winter’s Presence can only be done during wintersday – the most expensive and probably last achievement for that is bound to that time, because in January, it’ll be gone.

Now – It’s Christmas time outside the virtual world – People spend lots of time with their families and friends, shop gifts and all that stuff, make preparations for their xmas parties and what so ever. The lonely ones have the time. Should they be rewarded for not having any social contacts? The rich ones have the money – yeah, should they be rewarded for having money, while others can’t effort it?

CHRISTMAS or WINTERSDAY is about GIVING to those who are not so privileged, it’s about love for your family and friends, it’s about being together and having FUN.
The whole achievement thing destroys the SPIRIT of Xmas or Wintersday.

They should have made it possible for anyone to get, at least it’s a holiday item, really. (I know Halloween is a holiday too – at least in the US and GB, but as I said you can complete that item anytime)

For the spirit of Wintersday they should have considered offering it to every player in the game.

I mean… can anyone remember the first year of Wintersday? We were actually given a GIFT that was really worth it back them. Everyone was happy. That followed the spirit of Wintersday. This year (it’s my 4th Wintersday) it just doesn’t feel right.

What happened to the game anyway? Skins were something you could get ingame with little effort – it’s only eyecandy anyway, but nowadays? Either you have to spend insane amounts of money on the Gemstore or you’re forced into ridiculous achievements you wouldn’t have done otherwise. And some of them cost you even more money. Does anyone really like that? I don’t.

QFT. I loved that first wintersday. Getting presents from Anet on Christmas day was brilliant. I always kept my backpack, even though when my bank slots were full, I ditch other stuff in order to keep it. To this day, my main carries the sack. This iteration with the 10,000 drink achievement is just Scroogey.

Negrudamus.7581:

Its this mentality that everyone should have everything regardless of effort put forth that wrecks games. Not that I’m not sympathetic to those who cant get the stuff they want, but like playing CoD/BF/WoW/any game and complaining that you cant do X because its hard and it should be nerfed to fit you, It’s just silly.

It is not about making it easy but about giving alternatives for players and this does not wreck games per se but was one of the reasons why GW2 was a success in the first place.

One example: In the past, people needed WvW maps for world completion and a lot of PvE players where farmed on those maps and for a lot of PvE players this was not fun. As a result, A-Net removed WvW maps from the 100% world completion requirement.

For some players the game was too easy and this was not fun for these players.
For some players the game is too hard (especially since HoT) and this is not fun for these players.

A-Net needs to balance the game and the different game modes, so that most of the players (not all, because that is not possible) are having fun in the game.

When I remember a lot of discussions of last year (2014) correctly, the test of the scavenger hunt, and that you have to touch different game modes to complete a scavenger hunt, was acclaimed by a lot of players.

However, I think A-Net did “too much” of this and it should be toned down a little.

And: Making an already problematic game mode (time gated jumping puzzles and the HoT-adventures) more essential was not a good decision.

Last year I completed the Wintersday-JP after a lot of practicing (this year I do not bother to do it) and depending on the time of day it was possible to finish or it was impossible. Because of the lag the game had in the evening , it was impossible for me to finish in the evening. That was not fun but frustrating. Of course, that is just me.

The game technology behind GW2 is not very good to make this “timing sensitive Super Mario style” mini-games and makes it unnecessary hard and very unfun for some players. Players are not only challenged by the “game content” but players (some more than others) also have to fight the limitations of the game technology/engine.

This is why I think those “mini-games” should not be a required part of scavenger hunts, achievements and masteries.

I don’t like Fractals, so please don’t gate stuff like Ascended gear behind them.

See, there’s a million things in this game gated behind content some people don’t like doing, or can’t and not just due to some physical impairment as the OP is referring to .. where do you draw the line?

Dashingsteel.3410:

It is not “entitlement” to ask that a game stick to its original philosophy. In vanilla gw2 platforming was sideshow attraction. There was maybe a title and achievement points attached to them. Gaining skins or items was never attached to jumping puzzles.

With the introduction of HoT, the emphasis on platforming has skyrocketed. Skins, mastery points, and even the nature of the new maps require platforming. I bought an rpg not a platform game!!

I didn’t sign up for Mario Wars 2.

Never have asked that the skins are given to me. I already said I have earned other items and skins in game. I am asking for the process of acquisition to be akin to some of the great events in the past.

+1

Gating skins and Masteries behind platforming is a terrible idea. Jumping puzzles are a great and fun diversion to the game, but I never wanted the most desirable content to require platforming. This isn’t Metroidvania Wars 2.

Kerin.9125:

I don’t like Fractals, so please don’t gate stuff like Ascended gear behind them.

See, there’s a million things in this game gated behind content some people don’t like doing, or can’t and not just due to some physical impairment as the OP is referring to .. where do you draw the line?

Oh, acquisition of Ascended gear indeed needs a lot of improvement, i completely agree.

And as for drawing the line? I don’t think that having everything be accessible through all avenues is possible (or even necessary), but 2-3 distinct ways to get anything (or even 4 – PvE casual, PvE hardcore, WvW, sPvP) seems reasonable.

At this moment the very least thing Anet could do (because i don’t believe they’d actually make any bigger changes mid-holiday) would be to add all the components (and a 1000-drinks barrel) as a selectable option to the holiday sPvP track. Which would have an additional bonus of promoting their broken League idea.

Kerin.9125:

I don’t like Fractals, so please don’t gate stuff like Ascended gear behind them.

See, there’s a million things in this game gated behind content some people don’t like doing, or can’t and not just due to some physical impairment as the OP is referring to .. where do you draw the line?

I assume you mean the back piece as there are plenty of other alternatives to get ascended gear. The difference is, you can work on the back piece in your own time doing the content at your pace. There is no requirement of a timed JP that doesn’t allow for lag/internet/disability issues that there is no way around and only available for a couple of weeks or so and then its gone.

This is a festival, a celebration of (yes I’m going there – Christmas in a poor disguise). It is about enjoyment and socializing, this is NOT the time to be talking about “exclusive content”.

Unfortunately, I disagree. After reading the part about “Guild Wars 2 is a video game”, it has become obvious to me that TS does not understand that video games have a lot of genres.

Guild Wars 2 belong to the MMORPG genre and all MMORPG are known to have grind contents so when you or anyone decided to play MMORPG, they should have be prepared to grind for things one way or another. People can complain about certain items are overpriced while using existing items as guidelines but to complain about grind itself in a MMORPG is stupid. No people in the position capable of making changes will bother to respond if the complain is about grind.

Honestly, if people complain in a more reasonable and logical manner, it will be more well-received. Take for example if people phrase it this way, 10,000 drinks are a little too much given that wintersday will end in (2 or 4 weeks time) as compare to legendary which you can take your time to grind for while legendary have substantial use for it but winter’s presence is just a skin yet cost way more efforts (due to limited time frame) than legendary, thus the item is obviously overpriced.

As for people who for some reasons not able to complete JPs, be it medical or simply bad at JPs. They can always ask their friends to play their account to complete for them. Yes, it is against the TOS and if anet do ban people for helping others then it is better to just find a new game, you can point a middle finger at anet while doing so.

Oh and yes, I bought this because of GW1 and the MMO design and feel. If I had EVER wanted to do a platformer I would have bought a console years ago and likely never have been here ( I hated Jet Set Willy for all the old UK spectrum fans)!

Consuming 10000 drink’s achievement is too mean, and not fun at all.

I tihnk the game is let player feel leisure, but this games achievement is more hardcore and not fun at all recently.

I agre with the OP. Not for all items, but for festival items. If there was cool stuff for casuals and hard core players to get, I wouldn’t have a problem. As it is, I decided not to even try for the Wintersday item. I’ll be selling my gifts this year.

OP, one thing that is a silver lining in this is due to hard core people who much have this shoulder piece, you can make a decent chunk of change selling gifts instead of trying to kill yourself getting something that really makes no difference to the game anyway.

You can use that windfall toward precursor crafting or creating ascendeds, or even buying some black lion skins you really want.

So the picture isn’t completely black. It does, however, require a change of mindset.

Most of the community is fine. Actually, compared with other games most of this community is more than fine. It’s just that you tend to notice the bad apples, in the same way that you only notice the bad car drivers.

You know that christmas is close when GW2 players are even more angry and fed up than usually. Everybody in guild swearing and curse anet in team speak. Anet really know how to bring christmas spirit in players hearts. I personally going to skip this gw2 christmas like i skip it every year.

Crossaber.8934:

Ashen.2907:

Crossaber.8934:

When a game required a player to sit tight in front of the computer 2 hours+ straight otherwise you can’t finish part of the game content or aquire some item. It is no longer a game. How many 2 hours we got pet day? Thats 1/12 of our life and it is crazy demanding.

Last i check my play per day i am still sitting at 2hrs per day but you know what? I am already playing more than 55% of the whole player base. Yet i am not able to run any contents that require 2 hrs+. That mean there are majority of players are much casual than Anet expected.

I actually prefer RNG and TP when it comes to item aquire. At least the contents are reasonably created. We are not forced to do super long contents and still get the same chance aquiring items. It was once the beautiful of GW2 but it is no longer the case now.

Two hours per day is half of our lives?

1/12 can you even read properly?

Did you play too much already?

Get some rest dude

Uhm, if 2 hours a day is 1/12 of your life… I think a better way of phrasing would have been ’it’s a 1/12 of a day’. Otherwise you’re going to die 24 hours after being born :P

Thing is, as said above, MMOs are time consumers as are RPGs. That’s been known for years. GW1 used to pop up a message to take a break after 2 hours of play. How much time you put into the game is up to you but I don’t think I’ve ever been able to play any RPG game for less than 2 hours at a time simply because I wouldn’t progress very far. I think the only exception to that has been if I’ve popped on to grab a time limited reward, unless you count handheld games á la Tetris or Pokemon. To me it’s like saying ‘I don’t have 2 hours to cook a joint of lamb but I want it to be tender and falling off the bone.’

I have the time but I’m restricted by my disabilities – my concentration is no longer what it was (thanks MDD/bipolar!), I can’t sit for long periods of time (thanks lipodystrophy and hypermobility!). I accept that being differently abled I’m not going to be able to do everything that other people can. The platforming skills I developed as a kid playing Sonic etc on the Mega Drive have evaporated somewhat so actually finishing a JP for me is a massive achievement. Timed JPs? I don’t do well under that kind of pressure – Chemical Plant Zone in Sonic 2 was always my least favourite. But as I finished the whole of Sonic 2 in 2 hours earlier this year, I know that I can do it with enough practice. In terms of this shoulder skin, I might not ever complete the JP in order to get it. But hey, that’s just how it is. I’m not asking for the time-restriction on certain JPs to be removed just because I can’t do them.

I can see the OP is trying to be supportive of disabled players, but to me it’s a bit patronising. We’re not a homogeneous mass of people, we have many varied limitations and what could be helpful for some disabled people could be a hindrance for others.

Tbh what we need is a confirmation on whether the 10k will be reset at the end of Wintersday or not. That seems to be the main gripe of everyone.

I’d have to agree.

This achievement has soured the entire holiday for me. Because I know no matter how much I try, I don’t have neither the skills and/or time to be able to finish it at all, and I’m washing my hands of it and just selling all my drinks and presents.

Holidays are suppose to be fun little events that act as downtime between the real content, and gating the holiday items behind huge grindy achievements ruin that fun for a good amount of people. I understand the need for prestige items, and I’m all for them adding more in gated behind raids, hard modes, guild stuff, and group content like triple wurm, but holidays are suppose to be fun and leisurely.

I agree with OP’s sentiment.

I don’t think he’s calling to make getting the item any easier, just saying that we shouldn’t be so harsh on the people who come here and say they physically can’t do the thing because of how they are in the real world.

Y’know, cos Christmas.

Actually it doesn’t look like OP is suggesting any change at all to how you actually get the item. Looks like he’s just disappointed that some people don’t seem to care about the feelings of people who just want to be included.

I personally think there should be alternative options for how to get it. All challenging options, but at least a few different ones so more people have a better chance of not hitting a roadblock due to disability etc. But that’s just me. I don’t think I have seen anyone in this thread asking for the thing to be given to them on a silver platter, despite some of the critics seeming to suggest that in this thread. Did they even read the whole thing?

@OP: I think the people who claim not to understand this are actually few and far between. Not even sure if any of them are serious or just trolls. I think it’s really easy to get behind the idea of not being mean to people just for speaking up that they don’t feel included. Particularly at Christmas.

Could I just pay 1,000 gold to NOT have to bang my head against that stupid jump puzzle? I’d LOVE to be able to buy my way around that requirement.

Look. I’ll get the tree this year. I’ll set aside 2 bank slots and pile up one present a day until next year’s Winterfest and open them all then. But that *$&@($ing! jump puzzle just ain’t happening for me.

Nike.2631:

Could I just pay 1,000 gold to NOT have to bang my head against that stupid jump puzzle? I’d LOVE to be able to buy my way around that requirement.

Look. I’ll get the tree this year. I’ll set aside 2 bank slots and pile up one present a day until next year’s Winterfest and open them all then. But that *$&@($ing! jump puzzle just ain’t happening for me.

I had a problem with the jp, spent 4 hours the first day trying then the next day I adjusted my camera speed, lowered the gamma and turned off particle effects and I managed to get 3 done in 1hr. I just need 300g to buy enough drinks now :P

why not give an option you can get said item thru event A or do event B…like the snow globe..i know some hate JPs or lag…. maybe you could find it in a wintersday gift or dropped by killing holiday enemies…or hunt 1000 presents in pve..just other choices..

Surely the same theory behind the PvP legendary back pack could have been applied here: if you’re good, it will take a short amount of time. If you’re not so good, you’ll still be able to get it but not as fast.

So, completing wintersday events should have rewarded some sort of festival token. Sure, some of the events/achievements could award more tokens if they are more challenging. But there are plenty of methods to get enough tokens, so it’s possible for the loyal majority to have the chance of getting it.

Here’s a mock-up:

100 tokens are required, just as an arbitrary amount. (e.g. the tokens would be exchanged for ingredients required for the mystic forge, or to buy items for the collection achievement. The tokens could also be exchanged for other festive goods.)

-1 token awarded for each wintersday daily completed.
-Generally speaking, 1 token would be awarded for each tier for each wintersday achievement (given upon completion of the achievement)
-The infinite/repeatable achievements give 1 token for “completing and resetting” the achievement

So that’s 60 tokens from achievements, excluding the repeatable ones, dailies and the Grawnk stuff from last year.

Assuming that Wintersday will last 4 weeks (28 days) and we’ll get 112 total Wintersday dailies and thus 112 possible tokens from dailies.

So that’s 172 possible tokens, excluding the plenty that also could be available from repeatable tracks.

It still requires some dedication (which means it will still have some prestige), but people of all abilities will have the opportunity to get it by playing how they want to. This sort of inclusive play is what A-net is all about, is it not?

LimitBreaker.4165:

I had a problem with the jp, spent 4 hours the first day trying then the next day I adjusted my camera speed, lowered the gamma and turned off particle effects and I managed to get 3 done in 1hr. I just need 300g to buy enough drinks now :P

No amount of fiddling is going to change than I get exactly 5 seconds of 60-70 ping followed by 3-5 seconds of DEAD LINE (repeat infinitely). Yes, I’m currently trying to actually choke my ISP to death by willpower alone while waiting for them to fix it, but I have little confidence I’ll see results before I’m completely enmeshed in familial activities for the season.

I’ll experiment, because what else can I do, but my technologically induced handicap is pretty damming.

AirimirOfGondor.9081:

I agree with OP’s sentiment.

I don’t think he’s calling to make getting the item any easier, just saying that we shouldn’t be so harsh on the people who come here and say they physically can’t do the thing because of how they are in the real world.

Y’know, cos Christmas.

Actually it doesn’t look like OP is suggesting any change at all to how you actually get the item. Looks like he’s just disappointed that some people don’t seem to care about the feelings of people who just want to be included.

I personally think there should be alternative options for how to get it. All challenging options, but at least a few different ones so more people have a better chance of not hitting a roadblock due to disability etc. But that’s just me. I don’t think I have seen anyone in this thread asking for the thing to be given to them on a silver platter, despite some of the critics seeming to suggest that in this thread. Did they even read the whole thing?

@OP: I think the people who claim not to understand this are actually few and far between. Not even sure if any of them are serious or just trolls. I think it’s really easy to get behind the idea of not being mean to people just for speaking up that they don’t feel included. Particularly at Christmas.

Great post OP. I agree with this as well.

As someone with enough of a disability that not everything is achievable for me I would like to see alternative ways of being able to reach the same goal. I certainly do not want anything given to me on a silver platter. I enjoy working towards a goal – a lot of times the getting there can be tremendous fun and the satisfaction of achieving is tremendous especially in light of my disability. I managed to make Mawdrey II, get Princess and make 2 Legendary weapons and ascended armor so I know I have the determination to achieve goals. I guess I was lucky that I was able to get those done but there are other things out there I know I won’t achieve so I try to concentrate on what I can do and have as much fun as possible.

You will always have folk who can rip through the requirements in no time, those who have limited time to play due to RL obligations, those who have disabilities that limit how much they can accomplish and those who are just plain lazy and thus it is “too hard” to get but feel they should get it anyway. That’s life virtually and real…. Bottom line is we should acknowledge everyone’s differences and opinions with respect but also try to put ourselves in other’s shoes and realize just because you can do it easily doesn’t mean the other person can or will be able to.

Kampilan.3895:

I think the argument is simple: there should be alternatives to getting an item or achievement or even progression that caters to all play styles.

And I strongly disagree. There should be all sorts of items with all sorts of methods to obtain them, some that cater to specific game modes and abilities, and most that do not. There are items that can only be obtained via competitive PvP; I don’t think they should be offered in PvE.

The game shouldn’t cater to any single group, including those that restrict themselves to certain modes of the game (whether due to interest or ability).

I’d be against every item having strenuous requirements, but that’s not the case here — the vast majority of items can be obtained by anyone willing to spend time; only a tiny number require particular skill sets.

That said, I think that ANet should rethink their rewards for future festivals. In theory, these events are designed to appeal to the masses and to bring together players from all modes, which is why it includes both PvP and PvE style activities. In keeping with that concept, the rewards should also be more inclusive.

So for example, instead of requiring completing all of the activities, ANet could require completion of most, allowing people to substitute coin or karma or time spent in something else.

tl;dr I don’t think the game should cater to anyone, including people kittentrict the parts of the game that they play. However, ANet should reconsider whether festival rewards should include heavy restrictions and perhaps leave the somewhat more exclusive items to somewhat more restricted parts of the game.

Just please remember all…some of us are not awash in gold to buy it out to finish it.

I see 3 possible simple solutions.

1. Leave the achievement open, so those of us who will not have the time to hammer out 10K drinks in the span of the event, can chip away at it over the rest of the year(if you have the Tree in your Home Instance) and perhaps finish it up next Wintersday, even if you don’t have the Tree. This also does not harm those who have already done the 10K.(Which I think is the best way to go.)
or
2. Cut the requirement from 10K down to say 5K.(But that involves crediting or somehting to those who spent Gold and did the 10K)
or
3. Add just the drinks (in single purchase or groups like x5 or x10) to a Karma Vendor. The Six know we can crank out the Karma on the Bells or by doing the gift-wrap thing.

Its a game.

Cosmetic stuff could be handed out like confetti at a parade, and it wouldn’t alter the game world or experience one iota.

Anyone who argues about economies, exclusivity, the difficulty of acquisition, etc., etc. is missing the point, and comes across as kind of… well you know. Anyone who thinks the Batwings, or the falling snow should only be available to those able to sink all their time into the game is missing the point of games entirely, and views said games, and grindy MMOs in general as jobs.

You can tell who these people are. They spam “N00B” in chat, talk about how elite they are, their skills at speedclears and such.

The game should cater to EVERYONE. Every cosmetic rewards that isn’t gemstore could be mailed to every single player en masse and it wouldn’t affect gameplay one bit. Certain peoples’ kittens would shrink a bit, but that’s their problem.

The worst part about Wintersday is just how much it makes me realize the lack of empathy among gamers. Sure, its not all, but its enough to be depressing.

Eleri Tezhme.3048:

CIndeR.3479:

You are right, there are people who are simply unable to get certain items from the game. But to make it easier for those people is to cheapen it for others who are proud of what they’ve done.

Not easier, equal. We should all have an equal chance to get things in this game.

When you make content that is especially difficult or impossible for players with disabilities to do part of a requirement for an event, item or story, then you are actively excluding players. You are making them less than the other players.

Imagine you are a brown eyed person, and you enjoy a game. Most of the time, the colour of your eyes has no impact on your gameplay; you make some adjustments, you avoid optional content that is difficult for you, and you keep playing. Then they start adding required content that works better for blue eyed people. Blue eyed people can get through it just fine, so can green eyed people… but for brown eyed people, it is difficult, even physically debilitating and harmful.

And people’s response to that? To tell you to suck it up, quit whining, just ‘keep practicing’, to not expect the devs to make it ‘easier’ for you, because that ruins it for everyone else. All because you want equal access to the game.

This whole attitude is exactly why, when I got violently ill playing a particular HoT story mission, I wrote directly to GW2 support… only to be told I needed to go post on the forum, because that’s where the Devs are.

I didn’t want to post here on the forum, because despite it being 100% better than most MMOs, it is still filled with people who would happily insult me, belittle me, and berate me for trying to ‘ruin’ their game, just because I expect better out of ANet- not content that is deliberately designed to trigger physical disability.

You are asking for near impossibility for two different, but equal ways (okay, that does sound really bad as I type this, ya know?). Take for instance the tokens instead of jump puzzle. First, how do you decide what is equal time? That can vary. Second, where do you put the tokens? Garunteed one per gift? Then people with money can easily buy it, making it an easier path (not equal). Random chance in a gift? You’ll get people complaining about rng and not having money to buy gifts or hate grinding the other activities and dailies. Not to mention, the time factor. What if someone with a disability also has only an hour of play time? Should that be taken into consideration as well? Is it really possible to design something to include every single person and design it around their life?

No. That’s when its being asked too much. Look, people are getting upset at pixels and unable to obtain, them. Pixels in a video game that won’t be around forever. And are you really going to be thinking in 20yrs, “man, I wish I had gotten those cool snow shoulder pads from a game no longer running anymore”.

I really hope not.

Not getting an item shouldn’t ruin your gaming experience. If you don’t get it, wait for the next chance instead of beating yourself up. And if, you are beating yourself up, I suggest taking a step back and remembering its a game, and if that doesn’t work, seek help

Kaleban.9834:

Its a game.

Cosmetic stuff could be handed out like confetti at a parade, and it wouldn’t alter the game world or experience one iota.

Anyone who argues about economies, exclusivity, the difficulty of acquisition, etc., etc. is missing the point, and comes across as kind of… well you know. Anyone who thinks the Batwings, or the falling snow should only be available to those able to sink all their time into the game is missing the point of games entirely, and views said games, and grindy MMOs in general as jobs.

You can tell who these people are. They spam “N00B” in chat, talk about how elite they are, their skills at speedclears and such.

The game should cater to EVERYONE. Every cosmetic rewards that isn’t gemstore could be mailed to every single player en masse and it wouldn’t affect gameplay one bit. Certain peoples’ kittens would shrink a bit, but that’s their problem.

The worst part about Wintersday is just how much it makes me realize the lack of empathy among gamers. Sure, its not all, but its enough to be depressing.

Exactly, its a game. You don’t need the cosmetic items at all as it won’t affect your gameplay one bit. All armors could be removed and you just allocate your stats instead and the gameplay would remain the same.

CIndeR.3479:

Dashingsteel.3410:

To get Winter’s Presence you are required to finish the winter jumping puzzle 3 times. I believe that would be a platforming requirement.

And how is Winter’s Presence part of the game world? Is it necessary to continue a Story? A Map? Access a Point of Interest, HP, or Vista? A Dungeon? A Fractal?
It’s a skin!

Not having Winter’s Presence does not in any way bar you from experiencing the game, so just like the other platforms which are a sideshow, just skip it.

EDIT

I’ve put forth this suggestion in another thread. Award tokens after completing each event(bell choir, jumping puzzle, snowball fight, and infinitarium). Have each of the collectibles have a token cost. Since the snowglobe took 3 successful jumping puzzle completions charge 3 tokens for it….. etc. etc. This I think would be a reasonable way to go about earning the skin. That way you could do the events you want and still earn the skin. After all isn’t the game about entertainment?

I could be behind this. It is perfectly reasonable on the grounds that the difficulty of achieving the shoulders is quantifiably as difficult as it is now.

This is exactly how I feel about all of this. We should never treat people poorly for their inability to do certain things in-game, but we also mustn’t forget that this skin is not required. Putting insane tasks like this as a gate for personal story or world exploration would be cause for uproar but not for a side-quest that leads to an item 99% of players will never own.

I do like this token idea though, which also allows players to continually do what they enjoy. This is a good fix for this issue, albeit a bit too late for this year. Hopefully Anet uses this when planning the next festival.

Wintersday is scheduled to end on January 12, 2016. words from Gaile Gray herself. as for the drinks achievement we can earn it throughout the year instead only wintersday. Happy drinking everyone.

AlienMenace.7516:

I have been seeing a lot of discussion recently about Winter’s Presence – the new festival item that gives a snowing effect.

Before going on, I just want to remind everyone that Guild Wars 2 is a video game. It is a leisure activity meant for downtime – something to do after a hard day of work, for example. It is meant to be played for fun. For many people, of all walks in life, it is a brief escape from the day-to-day problems they have to deal with every day in their real lives. That is one of the many reasons why entertainment like this exists in the first place, and why entertainment like this is able to attract and sustain a large audience (i.e. why the medium is able to continue and be profitable).

Guild Wars 2 boasts that it has one of the nicest, most welcoming, and friendliest communities. I would expect that around Wintersday – around the time of the winter holidays – people would be feeling extra-festive and full of goodwill for their fellow man. You would think this would be a time for the strengths of that community to really shine through.

Instead, I see people who want to play the game – to have some time off and enjoy a fantasy world without the same problems of real life – being told by some other players that their real-life problems should limit them in game as well. That because of their real-life problems they don’t deserve a fair chance at this item or that they are entitled for wanting a fair chance at it.

I have seen several people saying that they cannot complete the jumping puzzle requirement to get this item due to various physical limitations or disabilities they have in real life. I have seen people respond to those people by saying things which, in essence, boil down to “tough luck – you’re disabled in real life so you shouldn’t be able to get this item in game.”

I have also seen other people saying they are not sure they will be able to complete the requirement of getting and consuming ten thousand – 10,000 – drinks during the short period during which this festival is active. I have seen responses to those people discussing the merits of taking on additional work in real life, and trying to figure out what wage/hour rate of work in real life can cover the cost of the item. Even if we pretend for a minute that unlimited work is available in all regions of the world at all times, why does the state of the real-life economy have to come into a discussion about Wintersday at all?

I don’t think I fall into either of these groups. I can complete the jumping puzzle just fine – my reaction time and hand-eye coordination are solid enough to get that done – and I’m sure that one way or another I could somehow muster the ten thousand drinks if I really set out for it. Not sure I feel up to all that nonsense, but it’s there.

But I have empathy. I know that not all people have the same options, and that that can be for real-life reasons beyond their control. I appreciate the people who know themselves well enough to know they can’t do this for reasons that are rooted in real life and are beyond their control. And I think that especially at the time of the winter holidays, we shouldn’t be telling these people they don’t deserve this, or that their real-life problems must also necessarily be in-game problems as well. It isn’t right, generally, but it especially isn’t right for the season.

It is downright depressing to see people responding to limited or disabled people this way. Especially at the holidays. Wintersday is supposed to be a cheerful and happy time. But people with limited physical capacities, who are already pushed to the sidelines enough in the real world, are being told that they have to have the same thing happen to them in-game for the same reasons. That’s not right. Holiday festivals like this should be enjoyable for everyone. And things like personal limitations or disabilities, or the state of the real-world economy, should not have an impact on these ingame leisure activity holidays.

I don’t have these limitations, and chances are if you’re already readying up a heated response, neither do you. But while you’re loading that ammo, preparing to tell me how wrong I am for sticking up these people, and how entitled and awful they are, why not just stop for a minute and try to think about what these winter holidays are supposed to be all about? Goodwill toward your fellow man. Empathy. Compassion. Yeah, this problem doesn’t effect us, but that’s not the point. The point is that we shouldn’t be excluding people, ingame, for things beyond their control in their real lives.

And if your best defense of this is “Anet still has to make money somehow so they need to do this,” in a video game people play to get a break from their real-life problems, something like disability shouldn’t have to be as frustrating or depressing ingame as it is in real life. If it is, they’re probably going to find a new leisure activity that’s something else. The playerbase can and will get fatigued if they are pushed to the sidelines even in-game for something they’re trying to get a break from in their real life – whatever that thing may be. This includes disabilities. That fatigue is not good for business – it doesn’t generate goodwill, nor does it grow the playerbase.

tl;dr: game = leisure activity that lets you get away from real life problems. Disability and the economy are real life problems. People don’t want those real life problems limiting their entertainment. Entertainment should help them get a break from all that. Some people are responding to these people and telling them “too bad. Your real-life problem has to be a problem ingame too.” That doesn’t seem right. It’s depressing to see. Especially around the holidays.

Happy Wintersday, everyone.

Definitely agree with the spirit of this post and showing both sides as well as compassion.

However gw and gw2 has always been about sideways progression. Meaning its easy to get exotics in several ways, but if you want certain skins you have to work for it. This is where the grind/no grind confusion debate comes in. There’s nothing wrong with anet making something hard to get, or costly. Its the same reason a lot of people couldn’t get the gauntlet mini. Same with legendary weapons/armor. Would I like some things tuned down some sure. But a lot of people have way to much entitlement issues these days (blaming some of this on politics)