With the new expansion, will Anet avoid HoT?
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I was wondering after the HoT aftermath and the damage it did to the game and player population, will Anet have the strength to forget HoT and move on?
What went wrong with HoT, IMHO, and should never be repeated:
01. Pricing the expansion as the full game for players already owning the original game
02. DLC worth of new content, not worthy of expansion name
03. Rushed and short story mode, with a really underwhelming final battle design.
04. Questionable map design, not the beauty of HoT maps, just usability. Minimap system is not enough for HoT layout.
05. Lack of new character slot for the new profession (remedied after an outcry from players).
06. Killing the casualness of the original Guild Wars 2 in more than one way and thus making maps either extremely hard or right down impossible for solo completion.
07. Nerfing the older content, all in hope player base will be forced to buy into deeply flawed new one.
08. Essentially killing off PvP with tying it to the expansion.
09. Nearly destroying WvW which survival is still up in the air.
10. etc.
I agree with point 4, the HoT map with it’s different planes is just too huge to represented accurately by the minimap.
There is no clear indication of where to go to the lower plane and where to go to the higher plane.
i agree with point 6, i hope they learned their lesson and remedy this in the upcoming expansion! Core tyrias difficulty was fine.
Why suddendly make it so much more difficult in HoT ? i’m a casual and i don’t want to have to group up to finish HoT!
and the maps mobs aren’t solo friendly either.
(edited by AncientYs.8613)
I was wondering after the HoT aftermath and the damage it did to the game and player population, will Anet have the strength to forget HoT and move on?
What went wrong with HoT, IMHO, and should never be repeated:
01. Pricing the expansion as the full game for players already owning the original game
Guild wars 2 vanilla went F2P shortly before HoT launched. Walue of Gw2 was set at 0 euro/ dollar. They bundled the 2 for the cumulative prices 0 for Gw2 vanilla and 50 euro for HoT. You value your game still on the original price; It’s like buying a car driving it 100000 miles in 3 years and returning it to the garage and expecting you get the purchase price back. The world doesn’t work like it.
02. DLC worth of new content, not worthy of expansion name
I never felt cheated. In the end HoTfullfilled my wishes I had BUT the introduction could have been more solid and less hyped. All people fully clamped to the hypetrain and refused to jump off when the rails went somewhere else then they expected.
03. Rushed and short story mode, with a really underwhelming final battle design.
The story mode should have been more worked out, LS S3 shows they are commited to a better product. I hope this holds true. The final battle was reworked and is pretty stable nowadays, Oh, and soloable….
04. Questionable map design, not the beauty of HoT maps, just usability. Minimap system is not enough for HoT layout.
I still find the maps infinitely more fun then the flatand simple vanilla maps.
The fact Season 3 is providing much more layers shows the concept has foothold.
Also worth noting: most ppl didn’t complain about HoT other then TD which might be confusing the 1st time you get in but is a very rewarding map and simple map to navigate if you have played all lane’s factions (Nuhoch, Ogre, Rata Novus and Scar)
It also proved to be my most liked map… I still find a lot to do and fun, after the AB nerf and the slow demise of VB…. The content is good ppl just seem to have passed the station…
05. Lack of new character slot for the new profession (remedied after an outcry from players).
Well… Not going here. I got 2 in the end, I paid for one which was an option to begin with.
06. Killing the casualness of the original Guild Wars 2 in more than one way and thus making maps either extremely hard or right down impossible for solo completion.
I did the full story line on 12 characters, the better number solo. and completed the elite specialisation on 22 lvl 80s. Casualness was vanilla, A lot of players wanted more difficulty and more rewarding gameplay. I’ve seen this to be an issue still. The fact ppl bough tthe game unlcoked a package and ran into the jungle with no clue whatsoever backfired hard.
07. Nerfing the older content, all in hope player base will be forced to buy into deeply flawed new one.
Yes agree on this, providing you mean dungeons.
08. Essentially killing off PvP with tying it to the expansion.
I disagree, but balance was a problem. The fact PvP and PvE cannot be deisconnected until 2 yrs later was a huge probelm, the balance patches were always a problem in 1 of the gamemodes. The werid obsession with gw2 needing to ba an E-sport was bad and consensus still is , balane is moderate, MEta dominated due to 1 build still being superior.
09. Nearly destroying WvW which survival is still up in the air.
Disagree. But the desert map is definately NOT my favorite. WvW did get a boost and I hope it will ressurect itself. It’s a limited gamemode anyways due to the small amount of places avaialble…
10. etc.
I cannot argue with an abbrevation which has no consise points. I can state however it is wrong to imply “there are many more thing” while a lot of thing were done to improve and ignore this completely.
23 lvl 80’s, 9 times map, 4ele, 4ncr, 3war, 3grd, 3rgr, 2thf, 2msm, 1eng, 1 rev.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
I was wondering after the HoT aftermath and the damage it did to the game and player population, will Anet have the strength to forget HoT and move on?
What went wrong with HoT, IMHO, and should never be repeated:
01. Pricing the expansion as the full game for players already owning the original game
02. DLC worth of new content, not worthy of expansion name
03. Rushed and short story mode, with a really underwhelming final battle design.
04. Questionable map design, not the beauty of HoT maps, just usability. Minimap system is not enough for HoT layout.
05. Lack of new character slot for the new profession (remedied after an outcry from players).
06. Killing the casualness of the original Guild Wars 2 in more than one way and thus making maps either extremely hard or right down impossible for solo completion.
07. Nerfing the older content, all in hope player base will be forced to buy into deeply flawed new one.
08. Essentially killing off PvP with tying it to the expansion.
09. Nearly destroying WvW which survival is still up in the air.
10. etc.
HoT was awesome! I disagree with everything you complained about.
New Main- 80 Thief – P/P- Vault Spam Pro
221 hours over 1,581 days of bank space/hot pve/lion’s arch afk and some wvw.
221 hours over 1,581 days of bank space/hot pve/lion’s arch afk and some wvw.
Sorry but everything about WvW is in fact worse than before. The DBL is probably the least-damaging thing they did to it of all the negatives in all honesty.
Guild Halls/ locking +5 behind thousands of gold made tons of invested small groups straight up stop on day 1. This was further exacerbated by banners and tacs.
The balance in WvW has never been worse, less diverse, or less fun than now.
Rewards in terms of gear and affordability really did not change that much.
It’s being upheld by the masses flocking to WvW for the AP and skins with the recent patch, but when most of these players realize it’ll take 16 straight weeks * 6 hours of fighting per day at peak performance to get the backpiece in the tickets alone, and probably close to a year of play to reach the 2k rank mark, the populations will fall and fall quickly.
Prior to HoT, only bottom-tier servers really suffered from population issues. Now, T1/T2 servers sometimes lack queues even with links to more servers. While T7 was a ghost town, I did transfer eventually and fondly recall being on T2 before HoT launched and having queues of over 100 people on most weekend nights.
Formal Thief Elite Spec proposal:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
I was wondering after the HoT aftermath and the damage it did to the game and player population, will Anet have the strength to forget HoT and move on?
What went wrong with HoT, IMHO, and should never be repeated:
01. Pricing the expansion as the full game for players already owning the original game
02. DLC worth of new content, not worthy of expansion name
03. Rushed and short story mode, with a really underwhelming final battle design.
04. Questionable map design, not the beauty of HoT maps, just usability. Minimap system is not enough for HoT layout.
05. Lack of new character slot for the new profession (remedied after an outcry from players).
06. Killing the casualness of the original Guild Wars 2 in more than one way and thus making maps either extremely hard or right down impossible for solo completion.
07. Nerfing the older content, all in hope player base will be forced to buy into deeply flawed new one.
08. Essentially killing off PvP with tying it to the expansion.
09. Nearly destroying WvW which survival is still up in the air.
10. etc.
HoT was awesome.
1) The pricing was comparable to other expansions. Content/price of an expansion compared to content/price of the core game doesn’t matter. Expansions never deliver an equitable content/price on any additional releases after their core games. If this was an actual issue then nobody would ever buy expansions and DLC’s.
2) There was more content than what you’d expect from a typical DLC.
3) Story wasn’t rushed. It was shorter than what it could have been because of pacing. One of the writers elaborated about this last year.
4) Map design was fine. There’s a lot of content packed into the maps without a ton of “dead” space like wide open maps tend to have. The mini map also still works well on TD. You just need to learn how to use it.
5) Debatable.
6) Most events can be done solo with exception of those labeled as group events. That’s obvious. I have done most meta chains solo except for those that are group events as they tend to have a champion boss or require more than one players such as the east pylons. Core maps had group events and meta events that players could not solo as well.
7) Older content wasn’t nerfed.
8) PvP was suffering for reasons beyond the expansion.
9) WvW was suffering for reasons beyond the expansion.
01. Pricing the expansion as the full game for players already owning the original game
They priced the same way every other kitten MMO prices their expansions. Most recent WoW expansion – Legion: Base 49.99, Deluxe 69.99. Just to give you one example. And if you don’t already own the game, it’s another 19.99.
02. DLC worth of new content, not worthy of expansion name
Whether or not you feel it is worth the price tag they stuck on that is your personal opinion. Some felt as you do, some did not. That is an issue with all products. However, it’s in Anet’s hands to determine what their price tag will be. If you don’t like it, don’t buy it. The same as with any other product. Or wait for it to go on sale. Or wait for the price to drop when the inevitable next expansion comes out, at which point you should factor in additional costs (such as LS3) into whether it was worth not ever buying it.
03. Rushed and short story mode, with a really underwhelming final battle design.
I didn’t find the final battle underwhelming, although I will agree that the story felt rushed. Hopefully they do better with the next expansion. I am hoping the ‘rushed’ feeling of the HoT story comes from them finally coming to terms with whether or not they were actually doing expansions or just Living World. However, all we can do is wait and see.
04. Questionable map design, not the beauty of HoT maps, just usability. Minimap system is not enough for HoT layout.
I think the layering of the map is fine in general. It takes a bit to get used to. The mini map, and world map layering could use some fine tuning in general, but this was true prior to HoT as well. So simply saying its not enough for HoT, I feel, is unfair. Even prior to the extent of the layering in HoT, it wasn’t enough just for some of the basic layering that existed in Core.
06. Killing the casualness of the original Guild Wars 2 in more than one way and thus making maps either extremely hard or right down impossible for solo completion.
I have mixed feelings on this. A lot of people cried for harder content in general. And Anet got a lot of solidly good feedback from the HoT beta regarding the difficulty of HoT’s open world content. Some going so far as to ask for it to be harder. Anet did actually nerf some of that difficulty before HoT’s launch, and then did a further pass later on was more people asked for it to be ‘dumbed down.’ But no, it’s definitely not on par with the ease of Core, and I don’t think that’s a bad thing. I don’t think it’s perfect by far in some aspects, but it’s not awful either.
07. Nerfing the older content, all in hope player base will be forced to buy into deeply flawed new one.
I do agree here. Their nerf to the Core game when they made it Free to Play sent a terrible message.
08. Essentially killing off PvP with tying it to the expansion.
Had they done a better job with balance, this would never have been an issue. They can still adjust this. It will just take them time. Then again, they’ve always been awful with balance, so I suppose none of us should be surprised.
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
01. The price of the expansion was typical for any major online game expansion.
02. The amount of content added was more than worthy of the name of being an expansion. People often just say, “oh, there are only 4 new maps,” while ignoring all the numerous changes to all the game modes, to the professions, and to the very nature of the overall game structure. People also fail to take into consideration all the events, adventures, and things to do within each map as well as the “quality” of the content that was added. The amount of work that went into the map designs was unbelievable but perhaps it takes a little knowledge of game design and coding to appreciate that.
03. The story did not feel rushed to me, but then I tend to pace myself with gaming. I don’t play 8+ hours a day, and when I am on, I vary my gaming activities so that I don’t “rush” getting things done. In fact, I still have an achievement left to do for the final story. I think its more of an issue of people rushing through the content as opposed to the content rushing people through it. But hey, I would love to have more story as well.
04. The map design was simply incredible. These are the most complex, beautifully designed, and entertaining maps I have ever seen in an MMO. Imaging, a massive map where it is entirely possible to get lost! Loved it!
06. The masses complain that the maps are too easy, so Anet makes something more challenging, and the masses complain that its too hard. People will QQ regardless of what the issue is. The HoT maps were not “too hard”, they are just a little more challenging in that one actually has to pay attention to what one is doing, and go in prepared with the proper gear both of which are reasonable expectations. The maps did not kill the casualness of GW2 in any way. You could however make an argument that raids have introduced exclusionary content to the game.
07. I assume that you are referring to dungeons. As a dungeon lover, this affected me greatly, and I was certainly not happy about it, but with the power creep, Anet’s move to do this was entirely understandable on multiple levels though they did replace most of the “nerf” to rewards so not really much of an issue either.
HoT introduced a lot of changes, and I can understand that change is difficult for some people, but the way people reacted to it was …covfefe?
Anyways, I loved the HoT maps so I definitely hope to see more of the same type of beautiful, complex designs that offer challenging exploration and numerous events and activities around every corner.
(edited by Silvatar.5379)
What went wrong with HoT, IMHO, and should never be repeated:
For starers, not everyone agrees with you.
01. Pricing the expansion as the full game for players already owning the original game
See the 30 other threads on the topic — not everyone is bothered by this, and some welcome the influx of new players that identical pricing brings.
02. DLC worth of new content, not worthy of expansion name
I totally disagree that this is an issue. For me, adding gliding and autolooting completely changed my game experience; that’s plenty for an “expansion” for me.
I think the ‘problem’ could be better restated as “too much emphasis on mechanics and revamping systems, not enough emphasis on things to do, especially after a long content drought.”
03. Rushed and short story mode, with a really underwhelming final battle design.
Also a matter of preference. I didn’t find it rushed or short. I like the final battle.
04. Questionable map design, not the beauty of HoT maps, just usability. Minimap system is not enough for HoT layout.
Map design is awesome. I really like the maps, even though I have extremely limited spacial relationship abilities (partly exacerbated by dyslexia). The minimap has always socked for multiple heights — it’s a problem in e.g. Black Citadel, not just HoT.
05. Lack of new character slot for the new profession (remedied after an outcry from players).
in other words, they already addressed that for HoT
06. Killing the casualness of the original Guild Wars 2 in more than one way and thus making maps either extremely hard or right down impossible for solo completion.
Can’t agree with either statement. Maps are soloable (with a few exceptions) and I feel open world remains casual.
I’d rephrase it as “there’s no transition zone from core Tyria to HoT — you’re forced to deal with verticality and more intense mobs, even as you are working on masteries and just finding your way around.”
07. Nerfing the older content, all in hope player base will be forced to buy into deeply flawed new one.
I have no idea what this means, except that I disagree that ANet intended to “force” anyone to transition in the way you suggest.
08. Essentially killing off PvP with tying it to the expansion.
Maybe you mean the new specializations are too high-powered compared to the old ones.
09. Nearly destroying WvW which survival is still up in the air.
And how did they do that, other than not giving it enough attention for since seasons ended? Recently, they just released a huge patch that was mostly about WvW.
10. etc.
Can’t assume anyone knows what you mean here.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
I simply cannot believe the complaints of the op, I love hot it is not perfect but seriously your complaining about an expansion cost when this Isn’t even a sub based mmorpg? Not to mention there is tons of content the problem is your not including elite specs, jump puzzles and etc it is not just about the story, what about meta events and rewards?" Not to mention masteries was a very good alternative then another gear treadmill, did you really think about this hard enough op?
Your only listing cons and ignoring the pros which is only validating your convicions instead of trying to be more subjective here. Also the game has tons of casualness just because it is more challenging does not make it less casual, it is still a choice not everyone wants the entire game to be easy, it is an rpg after all and it is supposed to get more challenging as you go. You still get to jump in and out and do not get left behind like in other mmorpgs.
I was wondering after the HoT aftermath and the damage it did to the game and player population, will Anet have the strength to forget HoT and move on?
What went wrong with HoT, IMHO, and should never be repeated:
01. Pricing the expansion as the full game for players already owning the original game
02. DLC worth of new content, not worthy of expansion name
03. Rushed and short story mode, with a really underwhelming final battle design.
04. Questionable map design, not the beauty of HoT maps, just usability. Minimap system is not enough for HoT layout.
05. Lack of new character slot for the new profession (remedied after an outcry from players).
06. Killing the casualness of the original Guild Wars 2 in more than one way and thus making maps either extremely hard or right down impossible for solo completion.
07. Nerfing the older content, all in hope player base will be forced to buy into deeply flawed new one.
08. Essentially killing off PvP with tying it to the expansion.
09. Nearly destroying WvW which survival is still up in the air.
10. etc.
I completely agree with all of the above.
I haven’t purchased HoT and it is most likely that I never will because of these reasons.
Also, the game in general seems rather dead to me and completely boring. Not to mention the GW2 community, who claim to be helpful and friendly, are actually quite the opposite when it comes down to it.
Lastly, most players only hang around Lions Arch doing fractals or the occasional world boss for their free trash loot.
No effort; no challenge.
Problem is deeper imo, because of horizontal progression, once you done the base game, you figure out the horizontal thing, and then doing HoT becomes less engaging, it is just the same kitten all over the place
In other game you grind the content to evolve your character, at the end of the journey you feel the change, so it was worth it
At the end of HoT you feel nothing special, gliding? ok cool now what?
For upcoming expansion, they need to find a way to make the player feel the change in the progression, they need something so they can say i’m different now after all these hours
Oh, and they should make old maps still relevant with updated stuff, instead of splitting comunity into 3 different content, Base/HoT/NewExpac
But this will requiere everyone else to get the newExpac
This just explain an even deeper problem
GW2 got released and it was something revolutionary, but they then decided to go back to old generic standard MMO design, dungeon behind an UI screen, raids behind an UI screen, new expac in new zone etc..
They should have went the subscription route with free xpac so no matter what everyone will get the same content, and they can release new stuff in old maps no matter what
You can’t mix revolution with old standard
I invite GW2 developpers to play a game called Realm of the Mad God: http://www.realmofthemadgod.com/
it is a flash based MMO, each god (stronger enemies) will have a chance to drop a portal for a dungeon upon death, each dungeon is open to everyone, some have player limit
This is how dungeons should be, not behind an UI, why having a big living world if it’s to pu dungeons behind a kitten UI ?
I love HoT though
Oh, and they should make old maps still relevant with updated stuff, instead of splitting comunity into 3 different content, Base/HoT/NewExpac
But this will requiere everyone else to get the newExpac
This just explain an even deeper problem
GW2 got released and it was something revolutionary, but they then decided to go back to old generic standard MMO design, dungeon behind an UI screen, raids behind an UI screen, new expac in new zone etc..
They should have went the subscription route with free xpac so no matter what everyone will get the same content, and they can release new stuff in old maps no matter what
You can’t mix revolution with old standard
If they went subscription based game, players would have left the game en masse. Why saying that they went backward in design when they created dungeons behind an UI screen ? Dungeons were released with the game as the original revolutionary design that you claim.
I was wondering after the HoT aftermath and the damage it did to the game and player population, will Anet have the strength to forget HoT and move on?
What went wrong with HoT, IMHO, and should never be repeated:
01. Pricing the expansion as the full game for players already owning the original game
02. DLC worth of new content, not worthy of expansion name
03. Rushed and short story mode, with a really underwhelming final battle design.
04. Questionable map design, not the beauty of HoT maps, just usability. Minimap system is not enough for HoT layout.
05. Lack of new character slot for the new profession (remedied after an outcry from players).
06. Killing the casualness of the original Guild Wars 2 in more than one way and thus making maps either extremely hard or right down impossible for solo completion.
07. Nerfing the older content, all in hope player base will be forced to buy into deeply flawed new one.
08. Essentially killing off PvP with tying it to the expansion.
09. Nearly destroying WvW which survival is still up in the air.
10. etc.
1) a company charging for the product that they spent vast sums of money producing is not a bad thing. I do have to wonder if those supporting the OPs argument give their own employer a discount on this year’s paycheck because the employer paid them last year. Do you work for free, or half wages this year because your employer paid you last?
2) seemed like a decent amount of content to me. Remember that a HoT purchase includes the LS3 zones as well.
3) the entire expansion, every zone, incljding events, meta, etc are part of the story mode.
4) yes, hard to navigate for me too. Doesnt make the design questionable, just means that you (and I) dont like it.
5) I agree, and said so at the time of release.
6) I am an extremely casual player and do not find HoT very hard, nor impossible, to solo. There is a difference between casual and unwilling to learn.
7) you have yet to demonstrate, or support, any claim that the expansion was deeply flawed, as you put it. There is a difference between, “I do not like something,” and it being truly flawed. This is especially true in the entertainment field.
8) how so?
9) how so?
10) this is the most cogent and coherent argument in the entire list.
Maybe some day people will learn that they are not the center of the universe and that them not liking something does not make it bad, flawed, or somehow universally wrong.
All of this from someone who does not like HoT either, but who recognizes that doesnt make it bad. I dont like hip hop, rap, most pop music, country music either. That doesnt mean that those artists should all stop making their prefered styles of music in order to accommodate my tastes. Nor should restaurants stop serving seafood, or using mayonnaise, or serving iced tea.
I’m removing the ones I don’t comment on:
01. Pricing the expansion as the full game for players already owning the original game.
Pricing was fine, IMO. In fact, I wouldn’t mind at all if they increased the price of the next expansion, provided they don’t make the same mistakes (as you are listing here). I didn’t like the idea of making the core game free-to-play, though, which was part of the pricing strategy.
02. DLC worth of new content, not worthy of expansion name.
It was fine content-wise, although they seem to have expanded how they do things since HoT (in LSS3). It’s not right to demand that they make different content, just because they’re giving away current content. Really, they SHOULD charge for LSS3 episodes, but their business model seems to be working as is.
04. Questionable map design, not the beauty of HoT maps, just usability. Minimap system is not enough for HoT layout.
This is exactly correct. While I like the 3D maps somewhat, they’re a real pain to navigate. They MUST change the minimap somehow before ever returning to the multi-tiered maps. (And, they seem to have forgotten this message in LSS3 episode 5.)
06. Killing the casualness of the original Guild Wars 2 in more than one way and thus making maps either extremely hard or right down impossible for solo completion.
This is HUGE. There’s no way it can be overstated: HoT was a complete disaster in this area.
07. Nerfing the older content, all in hope player base will be forced to buy into deeply flawed new one.
Another huge mistake. They mostly corrected things, but they have stopped working on the core Tyria content. Just because they made the decision to make it F2P doesn’t mean they should abandon it.
08. Essentially killing off PvP with tying it to the expansion.
09. Nearly destroying WvW which survival is still up in the air.
10. etc.
I can’t really speak to PvP/WvW, since I don’t play them.
My biggest concerns are the maps/minimap and the strength of the enemies.
The minimap MUST be fixed, and they need to test their fix in HoT, not in an expansion. We shouldn’t have to pay for them to fix one of HoT’s biggest failings.
And, a solo character simply cannot break many of the creatures break-bars. And some are mere veterans. Veterans were promoted to champion-level power, and elites are off the scale. Creatures were made impossible to interrupt, but at the same time were given nearly infinite-interrupt capability of their own. The whole expansion was grossly overpowering.
What’s wrong with the mini map? Far as I can tell it works well.
HOT sucks, I know this, because I don’t play it the way I played the original game. If it didn’t suck. I would be done with all it’s content by now.
I was wondering after the HoT aftermath and the damage it did to the game and player population, will Anet have the strength to forget HoT and move on?
What went wrong with HoT, IMHO, and should never be repeated:
01. Pricing the expansion as the full game for players already owning the original game
02. DLC worth of new content, not worthy of expansion name
03. Rushed and short story mode, with a really underwhelming final battle design.
04. Questionable map design, not the beauty of HoT maps, just usability. Minimap system is not enough for HoT layout.
05. Lack of new character slot for the new profession (remedied after an outcry from players).
06. Killing the casualness of the original Guild Wars 2 in more than one way and thus making maps either extremely hard or right down impossible for solo completion.
07. Nerfing the older content, all in hope player base will be forced to buy into deeply flawed new one.
08. Essentially killing off PvP with tying it to the expansion.
09. Nearly destroying WvW which survival is still up in the air.
10. etc.
I can only hope.
it’s this luck based mystic toilet that we’re all so sick of flushing our money down. -Salamol
What’s wrong with the mini map? Far as I can tell it works well.
You cannot identify passages above and below you, even though you’ve been there before. The minimap needs some kind of dotted lines or colored lines to indicate that there’s a passage above or below you (IF you’ve been to it before).
I only go to the HoT zones when I absolutely have to, and I dread it every time. Solo-unfriendly, unlike the core game, and a navigation travesty. This is not how an expansion should make me feel. It seems like such a waste of zones, they feel so inaccessible to me. Perhaps leave the high difficulty for instances like dungeons, fractals, raids.
When I wrote the opening post I fully realised that those were some of my observation and it why I have put an IMHO.
However, personal likes and dislikes aside, what is not up to debate is how devastating HoT has been to player base in all three aspects of the game: PvE, PvP and WvW.
I remember vividly how after the first Open Beta of HoT (earned through random Silverwastes token drop) my guild at that time, mostly made of hardcore players that sharpened their skills in Guild Wars I, had a lively debate on what we thought of Verdant Brink and how it will affect the game if all other maps and their mechanics turn out like it in some way. We were split down the thirds, some of us liked the change, some of us did not and some of us recognised the potential problems these layouts could invoke, often citing the Black Citadel as a negative example, the problems with such long metas without even knowing the mess with masteries and the grind HoT will bring. I’d say more than half of us waited and did not preorder the expansion, partially because of the pricing policy, partially because of the lack content, partially because of the announced changes to Tyria and partially of not knowing what to expect.
After the release, most of those who did not preorder did not buy the game and by the time Anet realised the effect HoT was having and the release of the first batch of changes, the guild with over 300 people fell apart, with most of the guild’s active player base moving away from the game. From what I have gathered and observed our guild was far from an exception and my friends list became grey.
I personally took an 8 months break from Guild Wars and got back into it when the first discount or price drop landed and made HoT available for 23 Euros instead of 46. Quite a few of people bought the Hot in those weeks and started playing through it, but what was noticeable is that players who already played Through HoT were missing from the maps as metas failed on a regular basis without the input from more experienced among us. Maps were busy those few weeks, not particularly efficient but busy. Now, maps are empty during the working part of the week with filling in only in those 15 minutes and mostly in the afternoon leading to meta finals apart from Verdant Brink, which is utterly empty all the time with the exception of days where Verdant Brink is a part of Dailies Rotation.
The minimap is not working well as it does not scale vertically either well or at all. HoT maps are complex almost as the real world would be, but whereas we as human beings perceive real world immersed with all our senses, we perceive game within a rectangular screen, so the map becomes a necessity. Unfortunately for HoT layout, the Guild Wars map is lacking. This could be remedied either through the active annotations on the minimap or perhaps through signposts with clear directions within the 3D world.
10. Tying quaternary content to primary (adventures tied to masteries), the grind for map and story progression, the grind for various collections or advancement, the magical mushrooms supplying vertical lift right where You need them to, unscaling HP points, Guild Halls – time and money wasting nothingness…
(edited by Excellent Name.9574)
I only go to the HoT zones when I absolutely have to, and I dread it every time. Solo-unfriendly, unlike the core game, and a navigation travesty. This is not how an expansion should make me feel. It seems like such a waste of zones, they feel so inaccessible to me. Perhaps leave the high difficulty for instances like dungeons, fractals, raids.
I completely agree. Some players said that Anet meant HoT to be really difficult but all that means is that many players will avoid it. So really difficult + group content doesn’t seem like a good mix since you end up with less people to help with that group content.
it’s this luck based mystic toilet that we’re all so sick of flushing our money down. -Salamol
I fully expect that, irrespective of validity or lack of validity of the OP’s points, ANet will avoid/ignore HoT once the new XPac launches, except for fixing the occasional bug or exploit. After all, isn’t that what all MMO developers do with old content once new content rolls around?
More importantly, though, I expect that players will not avoid HoT, at least not for quite some time, especially if significant numbers of players who have not bought HoT get access to it via the previously announced bundling of HoT in with the new XPac.
I fully expect that, irrespective of validity or lack of validity of the OP’s points, ANet will avoid/ignore HoT once the new XPac launches, except for fixing the occasional bug or exploit. After all, isn’t that what all MMO developers do with old content once new content rolls around?
More importantly, though, I expect that players will not avoid HoT, at least not for quite some time, especially if significant numbers of players who have not bought HoT get access to it via the previously announced bundling of HoT in with the new XPac.
Yes this is true but that is becouse they add levels so the old content is dead content, gw2 will never have dead open world content as long as it gets in new players.
Whether the developer adds content that makes old content obsolete (to players) or not, they aren’t likely to spend a lot of resources on old content when they are releasing new content.
Thus, yes, ArenaNet will ‘avoid/ignore’ HoT, and release the new expansion and Living World Season 4 and its corresponding maps (if any) and content.
I was actually pretty satisfied with HOT. And I haven’t even played any of the guild content or done any raids.
“What we do in life echoes in eternity”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6zkT2uZAGA – GW2 – A world of wonder
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6zkT2uZAGA – GW2 – A world of wonder
I fully expect that, irrespective of validity or lack of validity of the OP’s points, ANet will avoid/ignore HoT once the new XPac launches, except for fixing the occasional bug or exploit. After all, isn’t that what all MMO developers do with old content once new content rolls around?
More importantly, though, I expect that players will not avoid HoT, at least not for quite some time, especially if significant numbers of players who have not bought HoT get access to it via the previously announced bundling of HoT in with the new XPac.
Yes this is true but that is becouse they add levels so the old content is dead content, gw2 will never have dead open world content as long as it gets in new players.
My first response was to have asked, “How much did they do with core after HoT released.” However, my answer was, "Not that much, but they did do little events like the Caladbolg collection, bandit and ley events. So, you’re right.
I don’t think it is a good idea for the them to ignore HoT once the new expansion is out. Hot and the new expac will come out as a package for new players. The best they can come out with, is have rewards and/or content that makes players go back to HoT zones imo. If the zephyrites came back into the scene, then they would obviously would want to see the dragon they protected, so that means we would go to tarir.
01. Pricing the expansion as the full game for players already owning the original game
02. DLC worth of new content, not worthy of expansion name
03. Rushed and short story mode, with a really underwhelming final battle design.
04. Questionable map design, not the beauty of HoT maps, just usability. Minimap system is not enough for HoT layout.
05. Lack of new character slot for the new profession (remedied after an outcry from players).
06. Killing the casualness of the original Guild Wars 2 in more than one way and thus making maps either extremely hard or right down impossible for solo completion.
07. Nerfing the older content, all in hope player base will be forced to buy into deeply flawed new one.
08. Essentially killing off PvP with tying it to the expansion.
09. Nearly destroying WvW which survival is still up in the air.
10. etc.
Hrm, many of those I don’t agree with, but you raise some very good points.
For me, there are two really big problems with HoT:
Rushed story
The story was genuinely good. Up until about where you go to TD, and specifically when you hit Rata Novus. From there on out it was very noticeable that everything was cut short and shorter and shorter. This was so sad because it was such a grand and in theory amazing storyline culminating in Mordremoth, but because of the rushed nature it all felt… stupid. Trivial. Meaningless.
Power creep
My, my, my… When you said the mobs in HoT would be stronger, I didn’t think this implied that we’d make a 2x++ jump in power to compensate, and all you meant to do was utterly trivialize any non-HoT element of the game, plus make PvP silly in the process.
This is in theory reversible (heavily nerf the elite specs and especially their mechanical advantages, add downsides to them), but I can’t see it happen.
Going forward, I’d prefer if the core concepts of the expansion are more thought out. The maps were amazing (even though I agree that the minimap needs to be 3D or something…), but the story and extra specs were annoying as hell, and the specs specifically caused a lot of long-term damage to the gameplay as a whole.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
I’m pretty sure they learned from HoT, but map design in HoT is still my absolute favourite at this time. Draconis Mons felt comparable though, but unlike HoT maps that map has quite a lot of ‘dead’ space that you really have no reason to go to other than because you can.
I find you highly biased against the expac half of what you said gave meaning to alot of players who would abandon this game but focushing on the more hardcore audience for a change. I can agree tho that the way the handled the elite specs in pvp and the lack of balancing in wvw was bad choices but they had nothing to do with hot as an expac and more with anet themselves as poor managers of their own game.
The expac never presented it self as a content focushed one you can see it as a feature pack with the scope of an expansion and it purpose was to put the ground work and foundation for the future expansions.
Wonna hear a Dlc worth of content expac? Morrowing. Hot had a respectable on release amount of content and things to go for and if 1-2 months after release lw started roling and with it a bunch of new stuff the expac would have been a whole lot more loved.
I have to say the story was pretty weak in HOT, maps were not to bad but there was only 4 so the variety just isnt there.
Then you get masterys and elite specs which in my opinion were horrible. It killed the fun from PvP and WvW. Anet came out with this huge WvW patch and i can already see PvE players leaving. Im currently in CD and tnoight i had what seem to be a PvE commander leading the zerg only to get criticize for running from every fight. You could tell the commander and his guild mates were getting frustrated with some of the comments from players on the border land questioning his/her ability.
I mean Build diversity is such a huge thing for GW2 since we only have 9 classes and for Anet to make elite specs the way they did was a terrible joke.
Out of the 10 or so guild members still playing, all 10 of us loved GW2 core. We just simply wished for something more like end game content or challenging rewards to earn.
None of us felt HOT brought that though i can say 6 out of the 10 like HOT with 4 of us not. We all agree that the content was very short so think that thats what Anet truly needs to address in the next expansion.
Hot maps with 3 levels are very very good idea and they works extremely well.
DS map on other hand is a disaster. Its not only back to the normal 1 level map but its only used for single meta event and there is nothing else on it. I hope they avoit DS map design (and partially Auric bassin). I hope they dont repeat this pointless experience.
01. Pricing the expansion as the full game for players already owning the original game
This is somewhat wrong. I like it was full-price. If I calculate the amount of money I had to pay to play FF14 and get content updates, I paid MORE than a full-price game for it (€13/month * 6 = 78€) and the content sucked often big times AND the expansion for a full price. (I did not buy Heavensward and pre-ordered HoT, that’s who I got here). Together with the cash shop and overly engaged Final Fantasy fanboys buying EVERYTHING for ridiculous prices and same shipping cost, it’s only reasonable for ArenaNet to charge full price for opening a new huge chapter in the game.
To be honest, I’d like to spend much more on the game to show my appreciation, but there is nothing that fits my characters right now and I just want a silenced pistol with the right sound..
Apart from that, I am very, very happy with HoT. The mastery system is great, it really expands my abilities in every bit and gates some content behind a clever system. I mean, of course I do not show up as random guy and instantly befriend with strange Hyleks. It takes some time to learn languages, getting used to gliding and stuff like that. The map design of HoT however is really difficult and sometimes really frustrating, but in the air, it’s so cool to permanently glide trough the air and see Mordrem underneath me, fighting boars and other players.
As solo playability, I’d really like to have a mixed bag. Enjoying that some monsters make me Shadowstep into safety because I picked a fight I can’t win and require a party, but then I’d like to manage more stuff on my own instead of just silently join a mob of players running around without any intent of socializing “becuz da eventz daily speedrunz iz businez”. In the cutscenes and missions I do cool stuff, but outside I am way more helpless all out of a sudden. This has to be balanced out a bit.
Also, last but not least, the HoT areas are way too unsafe for me as Thief or let alone Daredevil. Just last time I killed myself by jumping off a cliff and breaking my neck on a boulder after being 150m in freefall and my glider did not work and/or I have been CCed otherwise (can’t remember what actually happend, but I might also just get rammed off a cliff, but I can not do that in return, meh).
Everything is on a small ledge, peak or some other very small place. Thief’s fighting however contains a lot of jumping and dashing, and it’s just bad that I can not use my skills because else I fall into an abyss. I found myself often just draw my pistols and unload 100s of bullets into a bunch of enemies because it’s the safest way to clear that narrow, elevevated passage in front of me I have to walk up…
Excelsior.
Zedexx, sly Asura Thief/Assassin
and politically highly incorrect. (#Asuracist)
“We [Asura] are the concentrated magnificence!”
and politically highly incorrect. (#Asuracist)
“We [Asura] are the concentrated magnificence!”
(edited by Zedek.8932)
However, personal likes and dislikes aside, what is not up to debate is how devastating HoT has been to player base in all three aspects of the game: PvE, PvP and WvW.
On the contrary, people are debating that very point.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
However, personal likes and dislikes aside, what is not up to debate is how devastating HoT has been to player base in all three aspects of the game: PvE, PvP and WvW.
On the contrary, people are debating that very point.
this is very true but yet their are some setting back and just watching it all and waiting to see how it all rolls out this time around . before making any jumpy moves at all . compared to last time around.
the very fact of all that fake hype and hot itself put together. well seeing some trying to become hype trains right now sure is not a good kitten idea at all to have happen .giving how hot came down and all that giving the facts there is no details as of yet from the company at all . i think it can be well said a lot of us this time are taking the next pack a whole lot more differently .than the first time around . hype=death
no new system upgrades coming
(edited by WARIORSCHARGEING.2637)
However, personal likes and dislikes aside, what is not up to debate is how devastating HoT has been to player base in all three aspects of the game: PvE, PvP and WvW.
On the contrary, people are debating that very point.
this is very true but yet their are some setting back and just watching it all and waiting to see how it all rolls out this time around . before making any jumpy moves at all . compared to last time around.
the very fact of all that fake hype and hot itself put together. well seeing some trying to become hype trains right now sure is not a good kitten idea at all to have happen .giving how hot came down and all that giving the facts there is no details as of yet from the company at all . i think it can be well said a lot of us this time are taking the next pack a whole lot more differently .than the first time around . hype=death
And a lot of us will still preorder the next expansion, regardless. I will. My wife will. In fact, I’d say a good 90% of the people in my guild will.
So maybe an extra few percent of people won’t preorder. I don’t really believe the numbers of people who won’t preorder are there, particularly if the price is cheaper and the preorder bonus is decent.
However, personal likes and dislikes aside, what is not up to debate is how devastating HoT has been to player base in all three aspects of the game: PvE, PvP and WvW.
On the contrary, people are debating that very point.
this is very true but yet their are some setting back and just watching it all and waiting to see how it all rolls out this time around . before making any jumpy moves at all . compared to last time around.
the very fact of all that fake hype and hot itself put together. well seeing some trying to become hype trains right now sure is not a good kitten idea at all to have happen .giving how hot came down and all that giving the facts there is no details as of yet from the company at all . i think it can be well said a lot of us this time are taking the next pack a whole lot more differently .than the first time around . hype=death
you know hype is in the eye of the beholder right? The only people that need to take thing differently this time round are those that blindly bought a product without knowing enough to determine it it met their needs and felt the need to complain and blame about it. Everyone else takes responsibility for their own actions already.
“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize
However, personal likes and dislikes aside, what is not up to debate is how devastating HoT has been to player base in all three aspects of the game: PvE, PvP and WvW.
On the contrary, people are debating that very point.
this is very true but yet their are some setting back and just watching it all and waiting to see how it all rolls out this time around . before making any jumpy moves at all . compared to last time around.
the very fact of all that fake hype and hot itself put together. well seeing some trying to become hype trains right now sure is not a good kitten idea at all to have happen .giving how hot came down and all that giving the facts there is no details as of yet from the company at all . i think it can be well said a lot of us this time are taking the next pack a whole lot more differently .than the first time around . hype=death
So last time there was “fake hype” which was bad (as opposed to true hype? Is there such a thing as fake hype? I thought hype was hype, neither true nor false but simply the excitement generated by an upcoming thing) and now there’s no hype, which is also bad.
Just out of curiosity, how much “not fake” hype should ANet promote that’s neither too much nor too little?
And how “fake” was the HoT hype? We knew it was content light. We knew the number of maps and their footprints in the map. We knew the price being asked. We knew it was supposed to be harder than vanilla Tyria. What part was fake?
Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.
ANet may give it to you.
However, personal likes and dislikes aside, what is not up to debate is how devastating HoT has been to player base in all three aspects of the game: PvE, PvP and WvW.
On the contrary, people are debating that very point.
this is very true but yet their are some setting back and just watching it all and waiting to see how it all rolls out this time around . before making any jumpy moves at all . compared to last time around.
the very fact of all that fake hype and hot itself put together. well seeing some trying to become hype trains right now sure is not a good kitten idea at all to have happen .giving how hot came down and all that giving the facts there is no details as of yet from the company at all . i think it can be well said a lot of us this time are taking the next pack a whole lot more differently .than the first time around . hype=death
I’m confused, what does hype or sitting back have to do with the OP’s contention “[it] is not up to debate …how devastating HoT has been to player base”?
Were some people disappointed by HoT? Of course. Did some people leave the game because HoT wasn’t to their liking? Sure. Did some people decide that they wouldn’t pre-order from ANet again? Definitely.
And, it’s also true that some were pleasantly surprised, that HoT attracted some new people and some people are more likely to pre-order from ANet this time, than they were last time.
I have no problem with the OP stating that HoT wasn’t their cup of tea nor with telling ANet they won’t preorder Expac #2. I do have a problem with the OP making it seem like that’s a universally held opinion (or worse, pretending it’s a “fact”).
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
There was a rather enigmatic statement made a while ago by either Anet or Ncsoft that “they had learned their lesson with HoT” ….
I am rather curious to see with the next expansion what those lessons were.
However, personal likes and dislikes aside, what is not up to debate is how devastating HoT has been to player base in all three aspects of the game: PvE, PvP and WvW.
On the contrary, people are debating that very point.
this is very true but yet their are some setting back and just watching it all and waiting to see how it all rolls out this time around . before making any jumpy moves at all . compared to last time around.
the very fact of all that fake hype and hot itself put together. well seeing some trying to become hype trains right now sure is not a good kitten idea at all to have happen .giving how hot came down and all that giving the facts there is no details as of yet from the company at all . i think it can be well said a lot of us this time are taking the next pack a whole lot more differently .than the first time around . hype=death
I’m confused, what does hype or sitting back have to do with the OP’s contention “[it] is not up to debate …how devastating HoT has been to player base”?
Were some people disappointed by HoT? Of course. Did some people leave the game because HoT wasn’t to their liking? Sure. Did some people decide that they wouldn’t pre-order from ANet again? Definitely.
And, it’s also true that some were pleasantly surprised, that HoT attracted some new people and some people are more likely to pre-order from ANet this time, than they were last time.
I have no problem with the OP stating that HoT wasn’t their cup of tea nor with telling ANet they won’t preorder Expac #2. I do have a problem with the OP making it seem like that’s a universally held opinion (or worse, pretending it’s a “fact”).
while i did not mean to confuse you at all on this . as that was not i was trying to achieve at all. but yet i got to say after reading your post . you said what i said far more better .with out my umm kryptic word phrasing . and i do agree with you on them points now if only i could get the forums post linking to work on this forum .
no new system upgrades coming
There was a rather enigmatic statement made a while ago by either Anet or Ncsoft that “they had learned their lesson with HoT” ….
I am rather curious to see with the next expansion what those lessons were.
That statement, iirc, immediately followed the admission that HoT had not produced revenue in the amounts they predicted. “Meeting expectations” is a big deal for businesses with shareholders. So, the most likely lesson learned is in how to modify the predictions for the next XPac to match the likely revenue.
Sure, they could be referring to any number of other things ranging from the business model to price point to type of content offered. However, shareholders may not be aware of any of that. It’s more likely, imo, that shareholders interpreted the statement as referring to predictions.
If the company is of the same mind as the op I would be very angry. HoT was amazing for me. To lose the feel of exploration, beauty and yes challenge I might as well not play. So they gain the op’s approval but lose at least one player in the process.
Thankfully the maps in season three lead me to believe they are no where near the op’s thought process.
I was wondering after the HoT aftermath and the damage it did to the game and player population, will Anet have the strength to forget HoT and move on?
What went wrong with HoT, IMHO, and should never be repeated:
01. Pricing the expansion as the full game for players already owning the original game
02. DLC worth of new content, not worthy of expansion name
03. Rushed and short story mode, with a really underwhelming final battle design.
04. Questionable map design, not the beauty of HoT maps, just usability. Minimap system is not enough for HoT layout.
05. Lack of new character slot for the new profession (remedied after an outcry from players).
06. Killing the casualness of the original Guild Wars 2 in more than one way and thus making maps either extremely hard or right down impossible for solo completion.
07. Nerfing the older content, all in hope player base will be forced to buy into deeply flawed new one.
08. Essentially killing off PvP with tying it to the expansion.
09. Nearly destroying WvW which survival is still up in the air.
10. etc.I completely agree with all of the above.
I haven’t purchased HoT and it is most likely that I never will because of these reasons.
Also, the game in general seems rather dead to me and completely boring. Not to mention the GW2 community, who claim to be helpful and friendly, are actually quite the opposite when it comes down to it.
Lastly, most players only hang around Lions Arch doing fractals or the occasional world boss for their free trash loot.No effort; no challenge.
Since you don’t even have access to half the game I think your view is completely skewed. You really don’t have any conception of what a vast majority of players are doing by only playing core. Perhaps it’s dead and boring because you’re still playing vanilla gw2 and have missed out on 2 years of updates….
im a came back player who quit at the expension , should i wait the new expension or buy HoT expension? will the new expension release this year? ( sorry for my bad english)
I like to think of HOT as a test. Some things were hits (how did we ever do without gliding) while other things were real dogs (looking at you ‘adventures’). Many more things got mixed reviews but it produced a lot of feedback of how it could be better. Probably their biggest oops if focusing too much on systems over content, however now that the systems are in place they can get back to producing a lot of content.
As to cost? Meh. Trivial in the long term as it is not a subscription-based game. Ask yourself, for whatever package/sale you bought it at did you get the same amount of enjoyment as that amount of time in a subscription game?
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