Guild Wars 2

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”

Yes or No?

“Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.”

Yes or No?

“Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it
doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun;”

Yes or No?

Uh I see no difference with those quotes and what the game is today. Especially the last point. Guild Wars 2 is still very much like Guild Wars as far as gear goes.

I know this because I have a very very busy life. If this game was a gear grind I would NOT be playing it. Reason being I have played all other MMORPG’s that ARE gear grinds and I stopped playing all of those.

That is the truth.

Not interested in supporting a company that can’t stay true to its own manifesto. The Manifesto was what convinced me to give MMOs another chance… shame, really.

I don’t care about the new gear. But taking literally from what they said and matching it to the game right now.

No. “..that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game..”

This new gear set does add power which does differentiate the existing tiers by power and not skins.

No. “..but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too..”

Kind of nit-picky on the wording. Peopel who acquire the new gear won’t be on a whole new level so to speak, but yes, having an exotic set compared to an ascended set does not make you just as powerful.

Yes. “It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it
doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun.”

This part of the manifesto is still in the game. You aren’t forced to a grinding treadmill. No matter what you say, you aren’t. This game has much more than simple competition between players and all current content can be done with pre-ascended gear it doesn’t a gate you from anything except bad elitsit groups dungeons, 1v1s in WvW which happens if the guy has a butt-load of boosters but how can you tell?..So nope, I don’t feel forced into doing anything, I’m going to stick with my exotics and happily do the new content no matter what. So it can’t be forced right? If “I”, myself can do all of the content still without the ascended gear. You can say it’s encourages you to get better gear but you are not forced, so literally, this still holds.

Anyways, my literal analysis on their manifesto. Still don’t care about the release, and think people need to just calm down.

Those 3 reasons pretty much sum up why i’m putting down my sword now and walking away.

Other mmo’s endless grind and dungeon gating was why I came to be interested in playing this game. I don’t want to spend ANY time preparing for fun. I want to get my endgame gear and be done with it. I want to know that WvW outcomes are based on strategy and skill only.

Lotro did its own version of infusions called ‘radiance’. Six months after introducing it they had a situation where no one new could get their radiance gear because everyone who had any would insist you had a minimum of x% to join their group. The community became one of ‘haves’ and ‘have nots’ where only the former group could do the endgame content.

Even though we haven’t even seen the new dungeon yet there are already threads asking for a method to ‘gear check’ other players agony scores. So anyone wanting this gear had better get in early or they will face being blocked from the dungeon by other players insistence on their gear scores.

Turbine had to admit they’d made a huge mistep with Radiance and removed it, but not before the damage was done. The company nearly went belly up, Warner had to step in to save them and the game having lost a huge proportion of its population went to f2p.

No, No, and No. They didn’t adhere to any of those.

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”

Yes or No?

If you don’t think the ascended gear sounds like a hell of a grind then I don’t even know what to say to you. What the hell.

No
No
No

Sadly… the precedence they have set in ONE patch has completely ruined their original statements.

If the patch poses a problem after I experience it for a few weeks, then I’ll take issue.

As of right now, we don’t know drop rates, we don’t know the alternate methods of gaining ascended gear (Crafting, WvW, merchants, tokens, etc.), and we don’t know if ANet will take measures to correct themselves a la the dungeon token update (remember how ridiculous it was at launch?)

So ANet must do a few things for me to lose faith:

1. Make an error with this patch (I’ll play through to see if the fears are well founded or not).

2. If there is an issue, not acknowledge the error (1-2weeks to acknowledge)

3. Not take steps to fix their mistake

Haette.2701:

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”

Yes or No?

If you don’t think the ascended gear sounds like a hell of a grind then I don’t even know what to say to you. What the hell.

Noone is forcing you to get this gear. If you want to go deep within this dungeon you will need this gear. If not, then you don’t.

I do not have full exotics on my ranger in WvW and I do JUST FINE. I can 1v1 and 2v1 very easily and win.

I have level 65 rare accessories equipped for goodness sake. Everyone is completely blowing this out of proportion.

Good lord, people are complaining VERY loudly about something before it’s even out, before they know how it will work. Bit early to be claiming this update invalidates their manifesto, isn’t it? People really aren’t going to be caring if you have exotic gear instead of ascended. Get it if you want it, don’t if you don’t.

People love to assume the worst before the evidence is actually there.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

Good lord, people are complaining VERY loudly about something before it’s even out, before they know how it will work. Bit early to be claiming this update invalidates their manifesto, isn’t it? People really aren’t going to be caring if you have exotic gear instead of ascended. Get it if you want it, don’t if you don’t.

People love to assume the worst before the evidence is actually there.

Regardless of the implementation, several known elements of the update straight up invalidate the manifesto. No more information is needed, the blog article alone invalidates elements of the manifesto. One of the core promised design goals of the game is being removed, one that was a key part of the game that attracted people to it. If you think that’s blowing it out of proportion I strongly doubt you understand the concerns of people upset over this.

Think the answer to those three questions are painfully obvious with this current patch..

Joey.3928:

Guild Wars 2 is still very much like Guild Wars as far as gear goes.

You’re kidding right? Almost everything about Guild Wars 2 is different from Guild Wars.

Toxica.6749:

Lotro did its own version of infusions called ‘radiance’. Six months after introducing it they had a situation where no one new could get their radiance gear because everyone who had any would insist you had a minimum of x% to join their group. The community became one of ‘haves’ and ‘have nots’ where only the former group could do the endgame content.

IIRC, didn’t they eventually get rid of Radiance? Only took them a few years to figure it out though. Which is exactly what you stated. The “haves” and “have nots”. It crippled the in-game community and in turn hurt the game in general.

Overall that a Big fat ((NO)) to living up to the Manifesto,

“Rare items differentiated by its visual appearance (not Power) Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear.”

((Going to have to lean towards ((NO)), on this one but will have to see just how long the tread mill has become)) From there statement they expect all players to realistically acquire the most powerful gear in the game. Has Ascended gear pushed the grind beyond reasonable for some …Likely it has.

“The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best.”

This is ((Yes and NO)) The Legendary weapons are still the rarest items in the game and they will be adjusted to now be par with Ascended gear. The reason this is also ((NO)) is because no one expected Arena net to shove gear in the middle of the Exotics and Legendary weapons and then just make a running upgrade on the legendary’s …they just rework the rule book and hope no one was paying attention.

“Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun;”

((NO)) They just added a mechanic to trickle out Ascended gear “piece by piece” extending a very long stick with a juicy carrot on it for months to come. GW2 is totally fallen into the traps of traditional MMORPGs

TheWarKeeper.5374:

dimgl.4786:

Joey.3928:

Guild Wars 2 is still very much like Guild Wars as far as gear goes.

You’re kidding right? Almost everything about Guild Wars 2 is different from Guild Wars.

No, let the man speaks, we are obvious undoctrinated GW1 scrubs in comparison to his mighty words.

I agree with this reply….

So either Arenanet was:

-totally and completely inept and incompetent in their design.
-lying to maximize sales right from the beginning.
-bullied by corporate bottom lines into abandoning their morals.

I can’t figure out which answer is the worst possibility.

Ryan.6951:

So either Arenanet was:

-totally and completely inept and incompetent in their design.
-lying to maximize sales right from the beginning.
-bullied by corporate bottom lines into abandoning their morals.

I can’t figure out which answer is the worst possibility.

Or in his own Ex WoW developer mind he is only doing what he knows and cannot see it as a lie.

Ryan.6951:

So either Arenanet was:

-totally and completely inept and incompetent in their design.
-lying to maximize sales right from the beginning.
-bullied by corporate bottom lines into abandoning their morals.

I can’t figure out which answer is the worst possibility.

I know it bothered me when I saw the company “NCSoft” attached to the game. The king of Korean MMO’s. Really made me hesitate buying GW2 in the beginning.

dimgl.4786:

Joey.3928:

Guild Wars 2 is still very much like Guild Wars as far as gear goes.

You’re kidding right? Almost everything about Guild Wars 2 is different from Guild Wars.

Guild Wars has easily obtainable best in slot gear. Same thing applies to Guild Wars 2. Are YOU kidding?

Ryan.6951:

So either Arenanet was:

-totally and completely inept and incompetent in their design.
-lying to maximize sales right from the beginning.
-bullied by corporate bottom lines into abandoning their morals.

I can’t figure out which answer is the worst possibility.

You forgot

- trying to respond to a generation of irresponsible gamers who whined constantly about the lack of things to achieve at endgame and needed some carrot to keep them going.

Don’t interpret that as supporting Anets move though, if they go through with this Ascended gear thing, it would be my single most hated change to any game in my MMO career.

Joey.3928:

I do not have full exotics on my ranger in WvW and I do JUST FINE. I can 1v1 and 2v1 very easily and win.

I have level 65 rare accessories equipped for goodness sake. Everyone is completely blowing this out of proportion.

You know, I’ve seen this argument from a few people now.

Ok, I know you think you are hot stuff. Maybe you are. But let’s say ONE day, you fight someone who IS on your level. He has gear that is 5% better, he’s got 5% more HP. He kills you, and has 4% HP left. Are you going to go “Haha, you got me, good job.” Or are you going to fume that you would have been victorious if only you had the same level of equipment?

Bottom line is, a competitive game should not be influenced by who has spent more time farming in PvE. Especially a game which has STATED THAT in its manifesto.

Easy question to answer – that would be NO, in this case!

No

but what can you do.

Joey.3928:

Uh I see no difference with those quotes and what the game is today. Especially the last point. Guild Wars 2 is still very much like Guild Wars as far as gear goes.

By current estimates it will cost 700 skill points to get a full set of infusions. Plus lots of very expensive material. Plus the acquisition of the Ascended gear, which will be rarer than exotics. I have yet to see a single exotic drop for me, and I’ve been here since release.

All the evidence points to no for all these questions.
All the people saying that it isn’t as bad as we think have no evidence to support their claims.

xtorma.1283:

No

but what can you do.

Contact a lawyer and see if you can file a false advertising complaint.

Do we know for sure then that this gear is going to be super hard to get? If its just a matter of going to the new dungeon and working your way through it and getting a special reward for it…What’s the problem? I guess I just think if its cost prohibitive like legendary weapons are, then I’d say it really stinks. But if you can put a group together and go have fun in epic new content while getting the special gear…how does that hurt?

Eder.9120:

Joey.3928:

I do not have full exotics on my ranger in WvW and I do JUST FINE. I can 1v1 and 2v1 very easily and win.

I have level 65 rare accessories equipped for goodness sake. Everyone is completely blowing this out of proportion.

You know, I’ve seen this argument from a few people now.

Ok, I know you think you are hot stuff. Maybe you are. But let’s say ONE day, you fight someone who IS on your level. He has gear that is 5% better, he’s got 5% more HP. He kills you, and has 4% HP left. Are you going to go “Haha, you got me, good job.” Or are you going to fume that you would have been victorious if only you had the same level of equipment?

Bottom line is, a competitive game should not be influenced by who has spent more time farming in PvE. Especially a game which has STATED THAT in its manifesto.

Thing is you are allowed to use consumables in WvW such as food and boosters. As well as racial elites (Snow Leopard is “op” for escaping or chasing down someone). I don’t see nearly the negative reaction regarding these as I see with this “new gear grind”.

I don’t claim to be hot stuff. But lets just say I am doing just fine without max stat gear on the “most broken” profession in the game.

The only grinding I did in this game was running Ascalon Catacombs about 10 times to get some armor. I did 0 grinding for karma and I have a few pieces from Orr.

I NEVER reached best in slot gear for any other MMORPG I played. I play Guild Wars 2 anywhere from 5-20 hours a week. I think that shows how Guild Wars 2 is NOT a game based on gear grind.

There is no way to prove me otherwise. How else could a “casual” player have exotic gear minus accessories with only playing that amount of time since August 25th?

Snoring Sleepwalker.9073:

xtorma.1283:

No

but what can you do.

Contact a lawyer and see if you can file a false advertising complaint.

And if you can, what does that solve?

Mandrax.7342:

Snoring Sleepwalker.9073:

xtorma.1283:

No

but what can you do.

Contact a lawyer and see if you can file a false advertising complaint.

And if you can, what does that solve?

Depends on how strong the consumer protection laws are wherever he files it. If it causes any money to be taken from ANET, they might rethink this whole thing, especially when other people hear of it and repeat the claim.

xtorma.1283:

No

but what can you do.

im complaining here and voting with my wallet. if they see a drop in gem sales they might be forced to comply with the manifesto.

Joey.3928:

Thing is you are allowed to use consumables in WvW such as food and boosters. As well as racial elites (Snow Leopard is “op” for escaping or chasing down someone). I don’t see nearly the negative reaction regarding these as I see with this “new gear grind”.

Because broken skills can be fixed with rebalalancing or countered with a large enough zerg. Consumables have been there since launch, so it’s not surprising to see people use them.

Fixing the gear grind after implementation is much harder.

I NEVER reached best in slot gear for any other MMORPG I played. I play Guild Wars 2 anywhere from 5-20 hours a week. I think that shows how Guild Wars 2 is NOT a game based on gear grind.

There is no way to prove me otherwise. How else could a “casual” player have exotic gear minus accessories with only playing that amount of time since August 25th?

Ascended items change that. Lets look at the cost of one infusion shall we:

Well i just tested this recipe :

1 Eldritch Scroll

20 Mystic Coin

250 Karka Shells

100 Ancient Bones

http://i46.tinypic.com/21nffvn.jpg

Results :

Vital Infusion
Stats:
+5 Vitality
+5 Agony Resistance
“ACCOUNT BOUND”

http://i50.tinypic.com/fxro5.png

Or as someone else put it, that’s 700 skill points to infuse all your gear. Plus materials and ascended items.

A manifesto, in general, is not a binding contract so what’s said and written down doesn’t mean execution must follow rigidly… Or at all

But at the same time, I think Anet did jump ship a little too quickly… I feel like there were a lot of possible strategies that could’ve been used which stayed in the confines of the manifesto. Whether or not they were better options than what got I suppose is debatable.

Snoring Sleepwalker.9073:

Joey.3928:

Thing is you are allowed to use consumables in WvW such as food and boosters. As well as racial elites (Snow Leopard is “op” for escaping or chasing down someone). I don’t see nearly the negative reaction regarding these as I see with this “new gear grind”.

Because broken skills can be fixed with rebalalancing or countered with a large enough zerg. Consumables have been there since launch, so it’s not surprising to see people use them.

Fixing the gear grind after implementation is much harder.

I NEVER reached best in slot gear for any other MMORPG I played. I play Guild Wars 2 anywhere from 5-20 hours a week. I think that shows how Guild Wars 2 is NOT a game based on gear grind.

There is no way to prove me otherwise. How else could a “casual” player have exotic gear minus accessories with only playing that amount of time since August 25th?

Ascended items change that. Lets look at the cost of one infusion shall we:

Well i just tested this recipe :

1 Eldritch Scroll

20 Mystic Coin

250 Karka Shells

100 Ancient Bones

http://i46.tinypic.com/21nffvn.jpg

Results :

Vital Infusion
Stats:
+5 Vitality
+5 Agony Resistance
“ACCOUNT BOUND”

http://i50.tinypic.com/fxro5.png

Or as someone else put it, that’s 700 skill points to infuse all your gear. Plus materials and ascended items.

They did not release all ascended items yet so it will not cost 700 skill points. If a new person comes to the game months down the road, they aren’t forced to get this gear. They have this option though if they want some kind of stat progression.

I for one am playing Guild Wars 2 because I am not forced to get this new gear. Going to do it at my own pace. All I want is that quiver back piece asap.

I will continue to be on the same competitive level with others in WvW because the game allows me to be. Everyone else can continue to complain.

Bruno Sardine.2907:

A manifesto, in general, is not a binding contract so what’s said and written down doesn’t mean execution must follow rigidly… Or at all

But at the same time, I think Anet did jump ship a little too quickly… I feel like there were a lot of possible strategies that could’ve been used which stayed in the confines of the manifesto. Whether or not they were better options than what got I suppose is debatable.

Depends how you look at it.

It was used as one of their primary advertising campaigns.

Also, I seriously doubt that this Agony Condition, Ascension gear and Infusions were all thought up, approved, developed, coded, and released in the tiny window since this game was launched.

Which means that while they were advertising and promising “There’s no grind! there’s no gated content, or gear treadmill” they were planning on doing the exact opposite.

To me that sound like textbook Bad Faith
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/bad+faith

bad faith 1) n. intentional dishonest act by not fulfilling legal or contractual obligations, misleading another, entering into an agreement without the intention or means to fulfill it, or violating basic standards of honesty in dealing with others. Most states recognize what is called “implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing” which is breached by acts of bad faith, for which a lawsuit may be brought (filed) for the breach (just as one might sue for breach of contract). The question of bad faith may be raised as a defense to a suit on a contract. 2) adj. when there is bad faith then a transaction is called a “bad faith” contract or “bad faith” offer. (See: good faith, fraud, clean hands doctrine)

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

Good lord, people are complaining VERY loudly about something before it’s even out, before they know how it will work. Bit early to be claiming this update invalidates their manifesto, isn’t it? People really aren’t going to be caring if you have exotic gear instead of ascended. Get it if you want it, don’t if you don’t.

People love to assume the worst before the evidence is actually there.

Probably because a vast portion populating this game have seen it done it before. I’m willing to bet a very small portion of the games population have never touched an MMO before.

No need to go all the way for False Advertising (unless you really want to), you can hurt them on their bottom line by requesting a refund:

https://en.support.guildwars2.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/9053/kw/refund

No, Anet have said so many things and did a 180 turn on them!

“No death penalty, Anet thinks DP isn’t fun etc”, “dyes account bound”

We now have delath penaty and dyes are not account bound, the list goes on

Having an unique look is awesome -> Yes! I agree.

Spending 1000 hour to farm for good loots = fun -> No! Hellz no.

Cosmetics is a reward for accomplishments. But really, is there something I’m not seeing here? How does it make your character feel special if he/she has spent hours to gain a legendary item? Yes, that makes you look cool…. But what’s the point if that item is the same as my item? You’ve got better art on yours than mine… I don’t find that being a big deal at all.

Do y’all really want to make this game become like the WoW today where players have put in so many hours into earning “good gaming stuffs” that they refuse to leave the game even when the gameplay no longer pans out? Pff.

MasterYoda.8563:

No, Anet have said so many things and did a 180 turn on them!

“No death penalty, Anet thinks DP isn’t fun etc”, “dyes account bound”

We now have delath penaty and dyes are not account bound, the list goes on

I’m still undecided how I feel about dyes being soulbound. I like collecting them so I don’t mind.

And we don’t really have a death penalty. Definitely not to the extent as we did in Guild Wars. Having 60% DP was pretty catastrophic.

I was one of the biggest advocates. After their addition of the next tier of armor, having to grind for money because the exchange rate is so low for gems, having to grind for such a large amount of karma (for just armor btw not even weapons 252k is a tad overboard), having nothing being done about the misses and problems with the least played class in the game when they are supposed to be treating all players/classes equally. So far, it’s not looking good. Anet is not living up to the standard they promised us they would be.

They have failed and acted in bad faith.
Yes they are shiftier than a politician winning a landslide. But what do you expect from a gaming company?This taught me a lesson to never believe anything from this industry again. My last game was Tor and now This. So from now on Dont believe the hype and wait a few months before jumping in the game.

Ask for a refund and get your money back – hit them like the politician in the pocketbook.

I think Arenanet has gone against their manifesto. No, they have not stuck to it.

Even if they haven’t gone against their manifesto—- they haven’t fulfilled it either. Either it’s not possible, they just didn’t have the talent, they decided it wasn’t profitable, but the game described in the manifesto is not what we got. I’m not saying that GW2 isn’t fun, it’s just not the game that I thought it was going to be based on their description in the manifesto.

It might just be that the vision they had for the game didn’t quit translate into reality.

Haha. They should just delete the videos and stuff. At this point it is misleading.

Honestly, I think someone peed in their cornflakes and forced them into this because this patch is a complete 180 from their vision.

_ If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game._

Is that why dungeon equipment with the best stat bonuses require multiple runs through them and they’re “soulbound” the moment you buy them so the ONLY way to get them is grinding a dungeon?

“Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game."

The rarest items in the game have always been more powerful than more common items. Only the legendary weapons are there for looks instead of being a significant upgrade.

“Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it
doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun;”

Hahahahah, where’d you hear that one?

Leaving one zone where you’ve finally finished into another even though you’re the recommended level or better will get you steamrolled by the garden variety enemies there. And because of the level scaling, your one and only advantage is the stat boosts higher level weapons and armor give you.

In short, that “manifesto” is just a BS PR release. GW2 is just another MMO like any other – a skinner box with hotkeys. And it’ll be my first and last.

Joey.3928:

dimgl.4786:

Joey.3928:

Guild Wars 2 is still very much like Guild Wars as far as gear goes.

You’re kidding right? Almost everything about Guild Wars 2 is different from Guild Wars.

Guild Wars has easily obtainable best in slot gear. Same thing applies to Guild Wars 2. Are YOU kidding?

Best in slot is legendary and you’re saying they are easy YOU are kidding. GW2 is not remotely related to GW1 or that manifesto anymore.

Snoring Sleepwalker.9073:

Mandrax.7342:

Snoring Sleepwalker.9073:

xtorma.1283:

No

but what can you do.

Contact a lawyer and see if you can file a false advertising complaint.

And if you can, what does that solve?

Depends on how strong the consumer protection laws are wherever he files it. If it causes any money to be taken from ANET, they might rethink this whole thing, especially when other people hear of it and repeat the claim.

Class Action anyone? Unemployment lines would start to fill up with “ex”-Anet employees