Guild Wars 2

apawolla.6923:

i hit twice as much with my condition ranger then i do with my zerker chars.
Those that are making squads and only accepting zerker builds aren’t very smart ….

apawolla.6923:

1.9k toughness and 24k hp (more survavibility equals more dmg!

is this a joke? inexperienced or delusional. You’re not even specced for full damage condi.

People coming up with conclusions without proper testing or data aren’t very smart

I always like to think of the Guild wars general discussion section as the casual discussion section.

Here we have in its natural habitat, a roaming PHIW player. He has been playing how he wants since the beta years and now he has come to the forums to settle down for the night. He has created a thread within which to nest, crafted meticulously from scraps of bear fur and bow strings that he has gathered from the dungeons he has managed to stay in without being kicked. The recent summer months have been harsh on the PHIW player, with the lack of real life events taking place he must take to the lfg to form a party and sully his spare time. The PHIW player does not wish to hurry, however mother nature is a fickle beast and many a hardcore will answer the call with a swift kick to the buttocks of the PHIW before he even enters the dungeon. To deal with this harsh reality, the PHIW forms many layers of defence in its proverbial coat. One such defence mechanism is the claim that dead dps is no dps. This has generally not been particularly effective when combating people with logic and reasoning but it does bode well for the self deluded. Much like a pigeon playing chess, the PHIW will knock over the pieces and crap on the board before returning to voice communications to croon of his victories to his flock.

laokoko.7403:

IvanTheGrey.2941:

I’ll leave this right here to agree

This video demonstrate why condition damage is terrible in 90% of the PvE encounter.

If you are leveling in the open world(especially in the early level), monster die in a few second, so burst damage > sustain damage. Berserker > Condition.

If you are farming mobs in open world events, monster die in a few seconds, condition damage just take too long to be effective. You really want as much burst damage to fight for loot, if you dont’ do enough dps in those 1 to 2 second the monster are up, you won’t get loot. Berserker> Condition.

If you are doing world boss, condition damage is cap at 25. Having 100 people constantly applying bleeding, your bleed damage will just get overlapped and do no damage at all.

If you are doing dungeon etc. You still have the problem of condition damage cap at 25. If you have another condition damage players, you’ll do half amount of damage. Even without it, most class will still do some condition damage which will cancel out your condition damage. Notice how the character in the video can cap the condition damage at 25 by himself. If there are other players, he’ll actually do “less damage”. Berserker> condition.

So basically it dont’ matter if condition actually do damage, because it isn’t useful “most of the time”.

ps did I forget to mention it is “so” annoying to hit structure with condition build. eg. wearing rabid gear in snowbind fractal is “very annoying”.

The video that I posted was in response to the overarching statement that berserker gear isn’t the only damaging armor set available. I’m well aware of the limitations of condi builds in both PuG dungeon running and open world content. In certain specific situations however, condi build can be superior. Those situations are purely limited to solo instances, as you’ve stated the problems with applying conditions in a group setting, but it is nice to see some bosses get completely wrecked by condis, even more than with berserker gear, as the video shows.

You could just bring a set of Zerker armor with you, and leave it in your inventory of pinging purposes. Or, you could ping it from your bank before you waypoint to the dungeon. That way, you can wear what you want and they think you are wearing Zerker. Win/win.

Goose.5196:

You could just bring a set of Zerker armor with you, and leave it in your inventory of pinging purposes. Or, you could ping it from your bank before you waypoint to the dungeon. That way, you can wear what you want and they think you are wearing Zerker. Win/win.

There’s a couple of ways to tell if someone isn’t pulling their weight, I’ve caught them before and after kicking the rage is intense :).

Goose.5196:

You could just bring a set of Zerker armor with you, and leave it in your inventory of pinging purposes. Or, you could ping it from your bank before you waypoint to the dungeon. That way, you can wear what you want and they think you are wearing Zerker. Win/win.

noot really

but i myself wish for more build and gears

that post only would bring u on my block list

…i will not block u just saying

Pandaman.4758:

Ettanin.8271:

A Zerker on:
Claw of Jormag
Tequatl The Sunless
The Shatterer
Fire Elemental
Jungle Wurm
Triple Trouble
Shadow Behemoth
Golem Mark II

is a weakened character. You cannot critically hit those bosses. Two stats wasted.

EDIT: Can’t say the abbreviation of GNU Image Manipulation Program here.

So? It’s generally accepted knowledge you don’t bring Zerk gear to anything that can’t be crit, just like it’s accepted that you don’t bring condi to any group event because the cap makes anything more than two condition builds completely redundant.

Also have a shameless self-plug of a half-baked idea on how condition can be fixed for PvE.

You need berserker here for the last phase.

Two things:

Condition > Direct Damage

If your original claim is correct, then you weren’t running a complete DPS build when you tried zerk. Once you have the proper armor, trinkets, traits, runes, utilities, and weapons, zerk will deal more damage than your condition build. If condition builds were better than direct damage builds, the meta crowd would run them. Trust me — gaming attracts a lot of semi-autistic nerds. The math has been done, the results have been compared. Conditions do not outperform direct damage.

Q_Q I don’t like getting kicked for not following the LFG

Ok. Make your own LFG then, and be specific: “p2 causal run, anyone welcome”. If you still want to place some restrictions, you can do that, too: “p1 exp 80, all builds welcome”. The beauty of this method is that if someone joins your group and complains about folks not being zerk, now you get to kick them for not reading the LFG

Remember, if you don’t want to play the same way the rest of us do, no one is forcing you to. Complaining that different playstyles exist is not going to help anything. Just find people to play with that you’re compatible with. The tools are available.

apawolla.6923:

Ok then here it comes:
Elite skill 26.454k dmg (150 sec cd)
utility skill 1 3.360k dmg (25sec cd)
utility skill 2 10 s 3x stacks of confusion- 1k dmg on skill use plus reflects dmg 6 sec (30 s.cd)
Pet: 1.3k dmg every sec or so +2.4k bleeding every 6 secs plus other pet skills. Can switch pets to stack up might (double result for condition build and more bleeds and stuff).
Normal skills: 11k burning (20 sec cd)
8k buring (8 sec cd)
6.7k bleeding (6 sec cd)
4.420k bleeding (9 sec cd)
1.350k bleeding (12 sec cd)
Aoe auto attacks
1.9k toughness and 24k hp (more survavibility equals more dmg!

I will not even mention my traits which amplify my condition dmg even more.

Hello, pulling numbers out of my poo hole.

Call me crazy, but I’m going to keep using my ascended Knight’s armor on my ranger, even for dungeons. You don’t do any DPS when you’re dead, and I spend a lot of time having to pick the other players up off the floor. When I do CoE and it’s Subject Alpha time, I often end up soloing him because I’m the only one left alive.

Blazing Liger.1236:

Call me crazy, but I’m going to keep using my ascended Knight’s armor on my ranger, even for dungeons. You don’t do any DPS when you’re dead, and I spend a lot of time having to pick the other players up off the floor. When I do CoE and it’s Subject Alpha time, I often end up soloing him because I’m the only one left alive.

When you get better you’ll see that Knights aren’t requiered, so it’s ok i guess.

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Hello, pulling numbers out of my poo hole.

My idol <3

Less-Than-Ideal Conditions

Zerker is definitely not the only DPS build. There’s Assassin, too!

The problems with condition damage are inherent to the game design, and as much as I wish it were not so, severely punish their use in groups.

Of the twelve conditions, seven of them don’t do any damage at all — though Vulnerability increases incoming damage, which does increase effective DPS from other sources by up to 25% at the cap, which is definitely not trivial.

But the cap and the nature of effect stacking are where the fundamental problems with conditions lie.

Conditions like Burning and Poison only stack in duration, which means it doesn’t matter how many players apply them. Moreover, weaker conditions applied by players with poor condition damage traits can overwrite stronger ones, and many autoattacks apply conditions.

So a condi Guardian standing next to a power Guardian, for example, will be trading off Burning from their automatically-applied Virtues of Justice, one weak, one strong. And even if both have strong condition damage and enough duration traited to maintain 100% burning uptime, the Burning DPS for both of them will be the same as one of them. Add more Guardians and DPS stays the same, no matter how many more you add.

Conditions like Bleeding, Confusion and Torment stack in intensity to a maximum of 25 stacks. Many autoattacks apply Bleeding automatically, whether the player wants it or not, which contributes to the stack, and makes it very common to see bosses constantly afflicted with 25 stacks of Bleeding.

The problem with this arrangement is that it is quite easy for condition users to hit the cap, and once the cap is reached (two of just about any decent Bleeding build can easily maintain 25 stacks), DPS is capped along with it.

That means a HUNDRED identical bleed-stackers pounding away at a boss will do no more damage than TWO of them. That is not good scaling.

Meanwhile, there is no such restriction on direct damage: a hundred direct-damage dealers will deal a hundred times as much damage as one of them.

That’s why the PvE “meta” relies on direct damage, and why it doesn’t even matter if a single condition build is better than a single direct damage build.

For solo play and PvP situations, condition builds can be devastating. But in group situations, the game world itself is literally stacked against you.

Sorry.

Oh look, it’s this thread again.

shh it’s good. This is good.

Balsa.3951:

Goose.5196:

You could just bring a set of Zerker armor with you, and leave it in your inventory of pinging purposes. Or, you could ping it from your bank before you waypoint to the dungeon. That way, you can wear what you want and they think you are wearing Zerker. Win/win.

noot really

but i myself wish for more build and gears

that post only would bring u on my block list

…i will not block u just saying

Oh, if you want to block me, that is fine. I have five level 80s and all five have Zerker armor. One of them, my guardian, also has the healing armor. Most of the time, I try and join a casual group because they are often full of pugs who will die a lot. That is when I enjoy being a healer. However, if there are no groups to join except a speed run 80 zerker group, I might bring my guardian. They have never noticed and we have always gone through just as fast as with my zerker professions. I don’t play to get a lot of money. I play because I enjoy doing dungeons. A part of keeping those dungeons fresh, since ANet refuses to add new ones, is by making different playstyles. So yeah… I try and avoid you guys, but sometimes (rarely) I will join a zerker group. As long as you aren’t actually bad, they will not notice. Anyhow… I am working on a full rampager’s gear necro that I am looking forward to trying out.

Pinging one set of gear in order to get into a specific req group and then using a totally different set of gear (unknown to the other players) is never acceptable behavior, regardless as how someone wants to spin it.

Oh sure it is, because people who use berserker gear are sub humans who deserve to be mocked, ridiculed and trolled by the rest of the community, doing their holy work of purging the game of filthy DPS so we can all run afk healer and tank builds.

The sad thing is, that Berserker Gameplay, is actually encouraged. Instead of addressing it, Anet builds their game around it. I don’t see how stacking a boss in a corner is challenging, or even fun. The same can be said for Champ Zergs. There isn’t any thought process put into it. It just breeds elitists in the community, and all you have to do is read the comments in these posts.

I disagree with certain people therefore they are elitists

The ride never ends.

maha.7902:

I disagree with certain people therefore they are elitists

You can be sarcastic all you want, but if you don’t want to acknowledge, that one playstyle is preferred over the others, then i can’t help your ignorance. If you don’t think, that kicking people, and requiring people to link their berserker gear, is not elitist, then you really shouldn’t comment on things that you have no clue on.

It also has nothing to do with disagreeing. It’s about discussing how to diversify playstyles in GW2, to make the game better for everyone, and not for a certain playstyle only.

GW2 is actually worse than a trinity MMO. You cannot play anything else, lest you be scorned and kicked. At least in trinity MMOs, you can have 3 choices. In GW2, it’s berserker, or gtfo.

If that’s the case why is it I can join groups on my condition spec and nothing happens? Why is it I get in to groups quickly and nobody asks about my gear?

grats op, way to show everyone you are a moron that doesn’t know how to play gw2

nexxe.7081:

maha.7902:

I disagree with certain people therefore they are elitists

You can be sarcastic all you want, but if you don’t want to acknowledge, that one playstyle is preferred over the others, then i can’t help your ignorance. If you don’t think, that kicking people, and requiring people to link their berserker gear, is not elitist, then you really shouldn’t comment on things that you have no clue on.

It also has nothing to do with disagreeing. It’s about discussing how to diversify playstyles in GW2, to make the game better for everyone, and not for a certain playstyle only.

GW2 is actually worse than a trinity MMO. You cannot play anything else, lest you be scorned and kicked. At least in trinity MMOs, you can have 3 choices. In GW2, it’s berserker, or gtfo.

I was watching the new WP vid the other day and he said something to the extent that there’s a “Zerk problem”. I see that people are saying the same thing often on this subforum and it truly begs the question:

What is the problem with berserker gear?

I’m truly curious as to why players think that there is a problem with this gear. The content can be completed with any other gear set in the game, and some of it even faster with condition spec gear/weapons/traits/runes/sigils (solo at least). Will it be as fast as it could be done with berserker’s gear? Most likely not, but who cares? You’re not going for a record run when you open up the lfg, so really, why does it matter? Now, I realize that some people will state that the “toxic community has stated that it’s berserker or gtfo”, and that may be so, but those are truly the kind of people that you don’t want to play with if you want a relaxing experience.

As far as group dungeon running content is concerned, it comes down to a very simple thing: Reading the lfg. If you join a group that requests you to “ping zerk or gtfo” with condition damage based gear, or an AH guardian, or a shout/rifle warrior, it’s completely understandable why they would kick you, and vice versa.

I’m not trying to be a troll here, but I’m genuinely curious as to what people think is the true issue with berserker gear.

Is it that other players will kick you if you don’t wear it?
Is it that the damage can be less than berserker gear?
Is it that there’s a cap on conditions?
Is it that other players’ conditions will overwrite yours?

What is truly the problem? Please don’t say that “content was designed for berserker gear in mind”, because it truly wasn’t.

So wait a moment. You think you can just come here to the forums and disprove all the work done by people such as Dekeyz with their insanely complicated DPS spreadsheets and frame-by-frame analyses by looking at your tooltip?

I mean you are saying that

1.9k toughness and 24k hp (more survavibility equals more dmg!

which pretty much says “Hey I’m a noob and I have no idea what I am talking about and yet I still think I am right whereas the ENTIRE GW2 COMMUNITY seems to be wrong”.

You need to work on your attitude.

Ettanin.8271:

A Zerker on:
Claw of Jormag
Tequatl The Sunless
The Shatterer
Fire Elemental
Jungle Wurm
Triple Trouble
Shadow Behemoth
Golem Mark II

is a weakened character. You cannot critically hit those bosses. Two stats wasted.

EDIT: Can’t say the abbreviation of GNU Image Manipulation Program here.

Yes, and the cap on conditions makes sure that condition damage gear is completely wasted here.

Some soloers experimented with condi damage because pve content in this game is nearly 2 years old and there is nothing to do. They found out that in a solo setting, on some classes, against some bosses, condi specs can do damage competitive with direct damage set ups.

The condition cap as it is currently implemented means that none of this will be relevant outside of solos. It’s a technical issue that would take a system overhawl to address, and since it is not a balance problem that effects pvp it is unlikely to change any time soon.

So, I essentially hear that people want the condi cap to be raised, and the implementation of said conditions to be re-organized. Would this stop the complaining (couldn’t think of a more tactful word, I’m sorry) about beserker gear?

Ettanin.8271:

A Zerker on:
Claw of Jormag
Tequatl The Sunless
The Shatterer
Fire Elemental
Jungle Wurm
Triple Trouble
Shadow Behemoth
Golem Mark II

is a weakened character. You cannot critically hit those bosses. Two stats wasted.

EDIT: Can’t say the abbreviation of GNU Image Manipulation Program here.

Triple wurm’s heads can be crit’d. Most wear berserkers as it’s impractical to swap out sets between phases.

So precision and ferocity is wasted? For there to be a “waste” there has to be a better alternative otherwise this isn’t much of an argument against berserker gear. What would that alternative be? For all of those world bosses, your survival is not at risk if you’re competent.

Also, most of these world bosses have events where there are things that can be crit’d. It’s also impractical to carry two different sets of gear as well.

edit: typos

IvanTheGrey.2941:

So, I essentially hear that people want the condi cap to be raised, and the implementation of said conditions to be re-organized. Would this stop the complaining (couldn’t think of a more tactful word, I’m sorry) about beserker gear?

Yessss…..

Raise the condi cap. this would be wonderfull. So that when I am in WvW, I can now epidemic 100 bleed stacks to 5 unsuspecting souls. Instantly melting them and having them come crying to the forums that Conditions are over powered!!!

I like this plan.

Ropechef.6192:

IvanTheGrey.2941:

So, I essentially hear that people want the condi cap to be raised, and the implementation of said conditions to be re-organized. Would this stop the complaining (couldn’t think of a more tactful word, I’m sorry) about beserker gear?

Yessss…..

Raise the condi cap. this would be wonderfull. So that when I am in WvW, I can now epidemic 100 bleed stacks to 5 unsuspecting souls. Instantly melting them and having them come crying to the forums that Conditions are over powered!!!

I like this plan.

So, this would, of course, be over-powered. What do you think that it should be raised by? 5? 10? 25? What would be reasonable? How would you deal with people who have less condi damage than you applying bleeds/burns/torment/poison/etc over yours?

nexxe.7081:

maha.7902:

I disagree with certain people therefore they are elitists

You can be sarcastic all you want, but if you don’t want to acknowledge, that one playstyle is preferred over the others, then i can’t help your ignorance. If you don’t think, that kicking people, and requiring people to link their berserker gear, is not elitist, then you really shouldn’t comment on things that you have no clue on.

It also has nothing to do with disagreeing. It’s about discussing how to diversify playstyles in GW2, to make the game better for everyone, and not for a certain playstyle only.

GW2 is actually worse than a trinity MMO. You cannot play anything else, lest you be scorned and kicked. At least in trinity MMOs, you can have 3 choices. In GW2, it’s berserker, or gtfo.

Lol.
I make a party. I specify what I want in the lfg. People ignore it/don’t read. I’m the elitist for kicking them. So unless I just take anyone and anything I’m a horrible person. Sorry mate but I’m not a charity, I’m there to get dungeons done, not hold people’s hands and put up with their kitten PHIW builds that they think are good for hours on end everyday. The only form of ‘elitism’ in this game is when someone joins someone elses party and expects those people to put up with their kitten, and play the game how they want.

IvanTheGrey.2941:

Ropechef.6192:

IvanTheGrey.2941:

So, I essentially hear that people want the condi cap to be raised, and the implementation of said conditions to be re-organized. Would this stop the complaining (couldn’t think of a more tactful word, I’m sorry) about beserker gear?

Yessss…..

Raise the condi cap. this would be wonderfull. So that when I am in WvW, I can now epidemic 100 bleed stacks to 5 unsuspecting souls. Instantly melting them and having them come crying to the forums that Conditions are over powered!!!

I like this plan.

So, this would, of course, be over-powered. What do you think that it should be raised by? 5? 10? 25? What would be reasonable? How would you deal with people who have less condi damage than you applying bleeds/burns/torment/poison/etc over yours?

just my personal opinion:

I dont think it needs to be raised at all. There are only 2 formats where Condition builds just dont work well. World boss events, and Power based Dungeon Runs. adjusting the cap to “fix” only 2 methods of play over everything else. would prove to be a very tricky situation in balance in PvP and WvW.

I just personally think that Conditions are fine the way they are. Maybe tweak it so that Poison and Burning is Stackable vs Durational. might offer some alternative methods of play.

((Shrug))

Ropechef.6192:

IvanTheGrey.2941:

Ropechef.6192:

IvanTheGrey.2941:

So, I essentially hear that people want the condi cap to be raised, and the implementation of said conditions to be re-organized. Would this stop the complaining (couldn’t think of a more tactful word, I’m sorry) about beserker gear?

Yessss…..

Raise the condi cap. this would be wonderfull. So that when I am in WvW, I can now epidemic 100 bleed stacks to 5 unsuspecting souls. Instantly melting them and having them come crying to the forums that Conditions are over powered!!!

I like this plan.

So, this would, of course, be over-powered. What do you think that it should be raised by? 5? 10? 25? What would be reasonable? How would you deal with people who have less condi damage than you applying bleeds/burns/torment/poison/etc over yours?

just my personal opinion:

I dont think it needs to be raised at all. There are only 2 formats where Condition builds just dont work well. World boss events, and Power based Dungeon Runs. adjusting the cap to “fix” only 2 methods of play over everything else. would prove to be a very tricky situation in balance in PvP and WvW.

I just personally think that Conditions are fine the way they are. Maybe tweak it so that Poison and Burning is Stackable vs Durational. might offer some alternative methods of play.

((Shrug))

If they could increase the cap on NPCs ONLY maybe?