Guild Wars 2

le forum bug
/15 kittens

I have to agree with OP on several points. Yes the Beserker meta is fine. Yes it’s largly due to mechanical and content design that push towards glass cannon builds. However, my main issue with the beserker meta is that it tends to bring out the worst in players. I generally run PUGs with “any welcome” tags, and do quite well most of the time. They may not always be speed clears, but we generally have a good time. However we do get the beserker “elitist” jerk in the party occassionally who will insult the other players who may be having a hard time, or new to the dungeon. I get alot of flack for using a valk warrior axe/axe build with shouts or banners. I am good at this build, having spend alot of time and research into how to play it well. I don’t join “zerker only” or “speed clear” LFGs. If anyone wants to do a glass cannon berserk build. Great! More power to you! But please, for the Six sake, don’t hate on those who don’t feel the same way about beserker as you do. Don’t think that because we have a different play style/build that we are bad players. Our builds require just as much skill as beserker, just different. We still need to know when to dodge, watch telegraphs, when to pop a certain utility or weapon skill, use what skills at what times for combo finishers and fields, etc.

Thats all we ask, and thats why some non beserkers, at least from what I see, feel the way we do about beserkers.

Flissy.4093:

So when they die your “tanky guard” can out DPS the healing of Alpha? Wow, you’re magic!

Do you have a better solution for what to do when everyone in your party consistently wipes but you? There’s still this problem with people dying. Your dps is 0 when you are dead. Most zerk pugs (in my experience) do not have the necessary gear/skill to pewpew down Alpha before taking condition damage.

Dalanor.5387:

This Nemesis logic kills me. Pugs are bad, so i should be bad too. Whyyyyyy? ( ._.)

Okay, minus the part “I should be bad too”, I can see where you came to that. I should have been less vague. I am a veteran dungeon runner and I pug a LOT. I run across many new players. And many players who spec/gear for zerk. These two tend to overlap. Result: a lot of dead zerk players. So I have traited a character to compensate for the ones I run into because I want to finish the dungeon and move on.

What I never said: All zerk players are bad. Zerk is bad. Nerf zerk. Zerk players are the enemy.

What I should have stated at the top, but forgot to because I am tired and also human: OP’s point to learn how to survive if you want to play zerk is an excellent one.

pdavis.8031:

I have to agree with OP on several points. Yes the Beserker meta is fine. Yes it’s largly due to mechanical and content design that push towards glass cannon builds. However, my main issue with the beserker meta is that it tends to bring out the worst in players. I generally run PUGs with “any welcome” tags, and do quite well most of the time. They may not always be speed clears, but we generally have a good time. However we do get the beserker “elitist” jerk in the party occassionally who will insult the other players who may be having a hard time, or new to the dungeon. I get alot of flack for using a valk warrior axe/axe build with shouts or banners. I am good at this build, having spend alot of time and research into how to play it well. I don’t join “zerker only” or “speed clear” LFGs. If anyone wants to do a glass cannon berserk build. Great! More power to you! But please, for the Six sake, don’t hate on those who don’t feel the same way about beserker as you do. Don’t think that because we have a different play style/build that we are bad players. Our builds require just as much skill as beserker, just different. We still need to know when to dodge, watch telegraphs, when to pop a certain utility or weapon skill, use what skills at what times for combo finishers and fields, etc.

Thats all we ask, and thats why some non beserkers, at least from what I see, feel the way we do about beserkers.

^— This.

@Allaraina

I got it, i hope you dont feel offended. I just wanted to say, if i would change my gaming style / preference / whatever due to how pugs works in this game, i should run PVT warrior to never die. But instead i stick to my goal and try to learn everyfight and get better in berserker on ele. And usually due to superior DPS from FGS carries the group. But ofc when you have 4 crappy warriors and your FGS simply time out at Alpha, you cant do much just die.

Players should cooperate and synergy well. In a full zerk group i just breeze trough everything, going down a few times maybe due to my scrubbiness. But in a crap party (read: wvw players or the ones who dont give a skritt about efficiency) i just simply die, because my character isnt suited for 10 minutes afk fights and lacks sustain. And im a noob ofc.

Allaraina.8614:

Flissy.4093:

So when they die your “tanky guard” can out DPS the healing of Alpha? Wow, you’re magic!

Do you have a better solution for what to do when everyone in your party consistently wipes but you? There’s still this problem with people dying. Your dps is 0 when you are dead. Most zerk pugs (in my experience) do not have the necessary gear/skill to pewpew down Alpha before taking condition damage.

Better solutions?
1) Quit a party that is so bad. Bad player with the right build (AKA zerker that die all the time) is 100 times worst than good player with bad build (AKA tanky player that know the encounters and don’t play idiotic build like minions or bearbow).
2) Do dungeon with some people of your guild. You can easily carry 1 or 2 bads with a solid core group.
3) Ask or join group with specific demands like speed run, exp, etc. This is not perfect, but I usually don’t have problem with pugs except once every 10 runs when a have a really bad party.

Its a side effect of the forums. We talk so much about how the meta with zerker gear is the best option, that a lot of people try that out without know how to use it. Meta are higher risk and higher reward. Its faster, but if you don’t know how to use it, then you will hurt your party more than anything. But we have to keep in mind that the community is not single minded. We all have our ideas. Some people can’t stand someone not using the meta, other encourage ppl to use the meta, but they should feel comfortable with it, other ppl know the meta is better, but prefer the safer way of a hybrid, and other are completely blind and find their healing guardian staff so kitten (but i keep you alive while you DPS dude).

For me, you should always try to go toward the meta and zerker gear for PVE because its the best options. But you should also have the skill to back it up. You can use hybrid build while you are learning and you can even stick with an hybrid if you are not confident with your skills or you just don’t play enough the game to develop these skills. But you should always know, you are using a supoptimal build for your own survivability and not to support your team and you should always at least try to get better at meta and not simply toss it aside. Meta is about DPS and zerker because that’s the best options currently with the information that most of the community have. If these information change over time or if someone figure out something completely new, the meta will evolve with that new information. If the best way would be to heal everything to death, then THAT would be the current meta. Its not the agenda of a particular group, its only the best solution the majority of player could find out with the information we have now.

Can someone point me to a dungeon boss where control is viable? I honestly don’t know any.
As long as dealing damage is only thing to do against bosses, zerk gear will rain supreme. There should be a variety in bosses, but due to defiant stacks, control is well non existent.
Since GW2 skills were designed around 3 pillars : damage/control/support, which is shown in PvP…. PvE encounters seems to have been designed around damage/support.

Like thread name says Zerk stats is fine. Gear stats were never the problem. Bosses dealing slow and small auto-attack damage coupled with really high one hit attack put emphasis on dodging and skills that negate damage. Which is fine, we don’t want tanking in GW2. But control and to be honest support (it’s ok atm, but support roles should have bigger impact) needs to be see more use in PvE… then other gears will see more usage in game

pdavis.8031:

I have to agree with OP on several points. Yes the Beserker meta is fine. Yes it’s largly due to mechanical and content design that push towards glass cannon builds. However, my main issue with the beserker meta is that it tends to bring out the worst in players. I generally run PUGs with “any welcome” tags, and do quite well most of the time. They may not always be speed clears, but we generally have a good time. However we do get the beserker “elitist” jerk in the party occassionally who will insult the other players who may be having a hard time, or new to the dungeon. I get alot of flack for using a valk warrior axe/axe build with shouts or banners. I am good at this build, having spend alot of time and research into how to play it well. I don’t join “zerker only” or “speed clear” LFGs. If anyone wants to do a glass cannon berserk build. Great! More power to you! But please, for the Six sake, don’t hate on those who don’t feel the same way about beserker as you do. Don’t think that because we have a different play style/build that we are bad players. Our builds require just as much skill as beserker, just different. We still need to know when to dodge, watch telegraphs, when to pop a certain utility or weapon skill, use what skills at what times for combo finishers and fields, etc.

Thats all we ask, and thats why some non beserkers, at least from what I see, feel the way we do about beserkers.

but you see, your issue has very little to do with zerker. It’s jerk players that are just using zerker as a springboard for their jerkiness. It doesn’t always present itself as zerker, sometimes it’s classism (no rangers!), sometimes it’s rage towards uplevels, etc.

Despite your best efforts to explicitly state your /lfg description, you will inevitably get a player who insists on imposing his “higher” standards on a group which is intentionally operating at lower standards. But you will run into this same type of player everywhere, in any game.

It has very little to do with zerker gear, but more-so, an arrogant individual who feels the desire to needlessly enforce what he believes are the standards with which the rest of the group should operate, whether the rest of the group wants to or not.

Dalanor.5387:

Bosses with tankable hits = balanced for PVT

If they hit fast enough I agree, otherwise it falls into the slow attack.

Dalanor.5387:

Bosses with with slow strong attacks = balanced for dodge

balanced for dodge = zerker, since you want to kill as fast as possible and zerker is the answer since defense will be irrelevant.

Dalanor.5387:

Bosses immune to condition (I’m looking at you Assault Knights) -> After phase changes boss get bonus damage after conditions = encourages build diversity

Nope, POWER gets bonus damage for each cond applied.
in the middle of the zerg, if 1 zerker: warrior is causing bleed + vulnerability, 1 guardian is causing burn, 1 thief is causing poison and weakness, would be better than cond players doing so.

Dalanor.5387:

The last part is interesting, is there such a thing? Btw you can power ress a downed team mate in PVT with less fear to die. So again, false.

Less fear, yes I agree, but in some fight, you can tank for a while, but you won’t be able to tank for too long, in those fights a zerker class with an auto ress skill will perform better since the boss will die faster.

Belzebu.3912:

bullkitten

As i asked you politely, watch the videos or leave the discussion. You obviously didnt do the former one, but i’ll answer for the last time.

1. Watch the video. Even the eles can tank the kicks and swipes with permaprotection on them.

2. False logic. The hit should kill a zerker, apart from warriors maybe IF they miss a dodge, since you cant assume from a balance staindpoint that you have at least 1 guardian in the group for aoe aegis.
The two side of the spectrum can deal with two different ways with a hit.
PVT just tanks it. Zerker try to burn it as fast as possible.
Slap in some other active defense, to help out players.

3. As i said, encourage build diversity. You need conditions there, to gain the bonus damage, even if it applies to power users too. Conditions being applied by power users is another issue tough, which should be another topic.

4. Its again the inability by the average player to optimize tanky builds and party compositions. Again, watch the video.

Watch the videos please or leave the discussion, since you only provide misinformation in the topic.

I propose adding Lilith’s corollary to Godwin’s Law. “As an online discussion about GW2 dungeons and stacking grows longer, the probability of a example involving the AC Spider Queen approaches.”

IndigoSundown.5419:

I propose adding Lilith’s corollary to Godwin’s Law. “As an online discussion about GW2 dungeons and stacking grows longer, the probability of a example involving the AC Spider Queen approaches.”

Plausibly an undeniable law of nature.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Xenon.4537:

The gear is fine.

The content being designed solely around it isn’t fine.

looks around for content designed solely for berserker gear

>.> <.<

can’t find

If you can solo it as berserk, then it was designed on a berserk standard since its the weakest (in terms of survivability) you can find. (Disclaimer: berserk meaning pure dps build and not exclusively the set p/p/f).

Different would be if by no mean a berserk could survive said content and requires the constant assistance of a support character, either buffing with aegis, vigor and cleanse or a control character to keep his rotation up to interrupt un-dodgeable attacks.

Then we will have content that is not fit for berserk only.

One hit, dodge or die PLUS timer on bosses = designed exclusively for berserk, aything else is a waste of stats (and I don’t find this fine in any mean from a game design point of view. I find this to be the biggest flaw in GW2).

Faerun.3091:

Can someone point me to a dungeon boss where control is viable? I honestly don’t know any.

Arah P1 Shoggroth

OldSomalia.6180:

Faerun.3091:

Can someone point me to a dungeon boss where control is viable? I honestly don’t know any.

Arah P1 Shoggroth

+ TA Champion Nightmare Vine, CoE P1 Bjarl the Rampager, Arah P2 Berserker Abomination, to name a few.

Control is technically viable on every boss (that lacks CC immunity or access to Stability) since you can fire it off and have it disable the boss or strip a stack of Defiance. What makes a difference in its effectiveness is when and what CC you used.

+ Mai Trin.

CoE golem.

Ooze boss in thaumanova

Do you really think that those pathetic number of all bosses in dungeons + open world PvE is going to prove that CC is viable? And to go even further, 1 interrupt and then I have to waste 5 skills to get off the defiant stack? Not to mention some bosses even when interrupted has so low CD on their abilities it doesn’t make it worth while….
Control in PvE is pretty lacking, trying to prove it otherwise will take some convicing.

But honestly what upsets me the most, is that you are willing to say that CC is ok in PvE when clearly it isn’t. It doesn’t have any impact on the fight, you get off 1 interrupt, maybe 2 if your team has CC skills, and that’s it. For whole fight.

Dalanor.5387:

As i asked you politely, watch the videos or leave the discussion. You obviously didnt do the former one, but i’ll answer for the last time.

Unfortunately I can’t watch the videos now since I’m at work, but I will as soon as possible, for now I have to answer from my experience.

1. Watch the video. Even the eles can tank the kicks and swipes with permaprotection on them.

By the description, I’m assuming you linked an ele vs Lupi solo video.
Most solo videos I watched, zerkers was soloing Lupi, of course PVT, Valkyrie, Knight, and other sets gives better survivability and gives space for errors, but with high player skills, zerker will be the best set in almost every aspect of the game (in PvE)

Dalanor.5387:

2. False logic. The hit should kill a zerker, apart from warriors maybe IF they miss a dodge, since you cant assume from a balance staindpoint that you have at least 1 guardian in the group for aoe aegis.
The two side of the spectrum can deal with two different ways with a hit.
PVT just tanks it. Zerker try to burn it as fast as possible.
Slap in some other active defense, to help out players.

Yes, IF they miss a dodge, if they don’t zerker will be better, and usually even in full zerker party you will get protection, vigor, aegis, regen … all that will make PVT and Zerk survivability virtually the same, with difference only in the damage.

Dalanor.5387:

3. As i said, encourage build diversity. You need conditions there, to gain the bonus damage, even if it applies to power users too. Conditions being applied by power users is another issue tough, which should be another topic.

Build diversity, yes. Set diversity, no.
Bold part I agree.

Dalanor.5387:

4. Its again the inability by the average player to optimize tanky builds and party compositions. Again, watch the video.

Watch the videos please or leave the discussion, since you only provide misinformation in the topic.

I want to watch the videos, but I only later.
Don’t get me wrong, I myself use zerker/valk gear because I like to have a good survival where I can rely on, but I know that if I went full zerker I would perform much better and be more useful in PvE content.
PvP and WvW with full zerker is a bad idea and there PVT and Condition builds shiny much more

RESUMING: What I want to say is, zerker offer the best performance with little risk, tankier builds will have less risk (but will still have risks) and considerable less damage, and condition build in PvE is plain broken (that is another topic entirely).

Faerun.3091:

Do you really think that those pathetic number of all bosses in dungeons + open world PvE is going to prove that CC is viable? And to go even further, 1 interrupt and then I have to waste 5 skills to get off the defiant stack? Not to mention some bosses even when interrupted has so low CD on their abilities it doesn’t make it worth while….
Control in PvE is pretty lacking, trying to prove it otherwise will take some convicing.

What’s the particular number of bosses we have to cite for you to realize you’re wrong and quite ignorant about a lot of the more advanced tactics in the game?

Faerun.3091:

Do you really think that those pathetic number of all bosses in dungeons + open world PvE is going to prove that CC is viable? And to go even further, 1 interrupt and then I have to waste 5 skills to get off the defiant stack? Not to mention some bosses even when interrupted has so low CD on their abilities it doesn’t make it worth while….
Control in PvE is pretty lacking, trying to prove it otherwise will take some convicing.

Convincing you, that is.

They are not saying that CC as a whole is viable, they simply gave you exemple of boss where CC is important. You asked for exemple of bosses where CC is viable, of course people will give you exactly that. That doesn’t mean that CC is a viable thing that will push ppl into building toward that (like you see in WvW or sPvP).

@pdavis

I get alot of flack for using a valk warrior axe/axe build with shouts or banners. I am good at this build, having spend alot of time and research into how to play it well. I don’t join “zerker only” or “speed clear” LFGs. If anyone wants to do a glass cannon berserk build. Great! More power to you! But please, for the Six sake, don’t hate on those who don’t feel the same way about beserker as you do. Don’t think that because we have a different play style/build that we are bad players. Our builds require just as much skill as beserker, just different. We still need to know when to dodge, watch telegraphs, when to pop a certain utility or weapon skill, use what skills at what times for combo finishers and fields, etc.

Except, you clearly didn’t do research. I remember the thread. You were told to go axe/mace because as a warrior you would have full fury uptime and you didn’t need to use axe 4. Axe 5 is useless since it does worse damage against five targets that axe auto does against three. Your build does not require as much skill because you have vitality as a health buffer – it’s a logical conclusion to draw that the less defensive stats you stack, the more skill it requires since you are forced to go more towards active damage mitigation and less to soaking hits.

If you were dodging key attacks then you literally might as well just run berserker since you can survive with it – the crux of the issue however is that you had ascended valkyrie and you were adamant about using it despite being told to use other gear.

@Allaraina

Do you have a better solution for what to do when everyone in your party consistently wipes but you? There’s still this problem with people dying. Your dps is 0 when you are dead. Most zerk pugs (in my experience) do not have the necessary gear/skill to pewpew down Alpha before taking condition damage.

Actually your DPS gradually drops, it doesn’t just crash to zero. Remember what those letters mean. Here is how you survive alpha – aegis the burning (you can do this three times in a row), cleanse the burning with purging flames for the fourth burn and then use virtue of resolve for cleanse or heal if party is low. You don’t need to go PVT or anything like that.

@Faerun

Time to unleash the heavens of GW2 control. Brace yourself:

It exists!

You just can’t smash point blank shot and illusionary wave on bosses like most pugs try to!

@Mesket

Different would be if by no mean a berserk could survive said content and requires the constant assistance of a support character, either buffing with aegis, vigor and cleanse or a control character to keep his rotation up to interrupt un-dodgeable attacks.

That’s one of the worst ideas I’ve heard recently. Let’s remove the trinity then add it again for no reason. No, the whole fun of GW2 is you don’t need to have specific classes to beat content.

You have proven it to me guys. GW2 has the best PvE boss encounters in game genre where every role is equall in it’s viability. Thank you so much.

Dalanor.5387:

@Allaraina

I got it, i hope you dont feel offended. I just wanted to say, if i would change my gaming style / preference / whatever due to how pugs works in this game, i should run PVT warrior to never die. But instead i stick to my goal and try to learn everyfight and get better in berserker on ele. And usually due to superior DPS from FGS carries the group. But ofc when you have 4 crappy warriors and your FGS simply time out at Alpha, you cant do much just die.

Players should cooperate and synergy well. In a full zerk group i just breeze trough everything, going down a few times maybe due to my scrubbiness. But in a crap party (read: wvw players or the ones who dont give a skritt about efficiency) i just simply die, because my character isnt suited for 10 minutes afk fights and lacks sustain. And im a noob ofc.

No harm done. Sorry if I sounded snappy, it’s been a long day.

Your description of how you play is what I wish more pugs would do (at least the ones I run into). I actually made my guard specifically for CoE because groups just… kept… dying. It’s so frustrating! I’ve come across a small handful of players who use zerk builds and are absolutely AMAZING. But there seems to be this middle ground where players spec zerk, have a full exotic set, but haven’t mastered a particular dungeon and so turn to melty butter on the floor. I’d even be okay with that but it feels like (note word ‘feels’) the bulk of them come with an attitude. And that makes me sad because I love dungeoning.

Mmmn….. butter…. <3

Scrambles.2604:

pdavis.8031:

I have to agree with OP on several points. Yes the Beserker meta is fine. Yes it’s largly due to mechanical and content design that push towards glass cannon builds. However, my main issue with the beserker meta is that it tends to bring out the worst in players. I generally run PUGs with “any welcome” tags, and do quite well most of the time. They may not always be speed clears, but we generally have a good time. However we do get the beserker “elitist” jerk in the party occassionally who will insult the other players who may be having a hard time, or new to the dungeon. I get alot of flack for using a valk warrior axe/axe build with shouts or banners. I am good at this build, having spend alot of time and research into how to play it well. I don’t join “zerker only” or “speed clear” LFGs. If anyone wants to do a glass cannon berserk build. Great! More power to you! But please, for the Six sake, don’t hate on those who don’t feel the same way about beserker as you do. Don’t think that because we have a different play style/build that we are bad players. Our builds require just as much skill as beserker, just different. We still need to know when to dodge, watch telegraphs, when to pop a certain utility or weapon skill, use what skills at what times for combo finishers and fields, etc.

Thats all we ask, and thats why some non beserkers, at least from what I see, feel the way we do about beserkers.

but you see, your issue has very little to do with zerker. It’s jerk players that are just using zerker as a springboard for their jerkiness. It doesn’t always present itself as zerker, sometimes it’s classism (no rangers!), sometimes it’s rage towards uplevels, etc.

Despite your best efforts to explicitly state your /lfg description, you will inevitably get a player who insists on imposing his “higher” standards on a group which is intentionally operating at lower standards. But you will run into this same type of player everywhere, in any game.

It has very little to do with zerker gear, but more-so, an arrogant individual who feels the desire to needlessly enforce what he believes are the standards with which the rest of the group should operate, whether the rest of the group wants to or not.

While I agree with that, from my experience, it’s the mindset that TENDS to come with the gear. You see it even in this thread, with phrases like “Sub Par”, “Sub optimal”, “better skilled”, etc. It’s subtle, but it’s there. While a non DPS {insert gear here} build is “sub optimal” when compared to a DPS beserker build, doesn’t mean that gear set/build is bad, unless you are trying to do conditions with healing gear, and physical damage traits on the weapon sets that you don’t have, or something.

So while it may NOT be the gear in and of itself, but as you said, it’s a spring board for that behavior. Again, from my experience, its those running those builds and gearsets who tend to be the worst perpetrators of that behavior. I’ve yet to be chewed out by a cleric build for not doing x,y,z in a dungeon run. So yes, my issue is not with the gear itself, but the attitude that the gear fosters.

Fror.2163:

People are making threads for nearly one year about the berserker gear being bad. The recent modifications to the crit damages made low level dungeons easier and higher level dungeons harder.

This really should be stressed, although I disagree about the harder thing. Down-scaled dungeons explode currently.

On subject on lfg- It really isn’t too hard to post a ’LF Path X, casual run." This is how we did dungeon master. We got to explore the paths, meet generally laid back people and so.

Overall on zerk? Honestly, I’d just remove it from the game and be done with it. Good players will adapt, the game will go on. New problems will be addressed. Content becoming harder would only be a good thing at this point.

yes, let’s just remove it for absolutely no reason whatsoever

maha.7902:

yes, let’s just remove it for absolutely no reason whatsoever

Anet pls.

pdavis.8031:

While I agree with that, from my experience, it’s the mindset that TENDS to come with the gear. You see it even in this thread, with phrases like “Sub Par”, “Sub optimal”, “better skilled”, etc. It’s subtle, but it’s there. While a non DPS {insert gear here} build is “sub optimal” when compared to a DPS beserker build, doesn’t mean that gear set/build is bad, unless you are trying to do conditions with healing gear, and physical damage traits on the weapon sets that you don’t have, or something.

So while it may NOT be the gear in and of itself, but as you said, it’s a spring board for that behavior. Again, from my experience, its those running those builds and gearsets who tend to be the worst perpetrators of that behavior. I’ve yet to be chewed out by a cleric build for not doing x,y,z in a dungeon run. So yes, my issue is not with the gear itself, but the attitude that the gear fosters.

I’m glad we’re on the same page but it still seems like you are lumping zerker gear with your problem. Yes, bad mannered players seem to also run zerker gear, but bad mannered players would be more likely to blindly enforce the meta over people they can be rude to.

Think of all the proper, well meaning players that also run zerker gear. All it is, is a type of gear that orients your stats a certain way, yet because of the bad mannered players, we’ve developed a negative connotation that we associate with players just because of how they orient their stats.

Otherwise, ANY gear type is VIABLE but only a certain build type is OPTIMAL. Just because it’s not optimal doesn’t make it a bad thing. Don’t be offended if someone says your gear type isn’t optimal. If you’re goal IS to build optimally then you would probably be willing to seek constructive criticism on why your build isn’t optimal, but if it’s not your goal then who cares if your build isn’t optimal?

Sigh, can we stop having this “discussion” already?

Berserker gear is fine.

Yes, there are elitists who would use any and every measure to exclude “bads” from groups. Let them wait in LFG queues.

Yes, there are players and white knights who will take anyone to a group, maybe even teach them dungeon mechanics. They are brave and patient souls indeed. Let them make LFG runs with “full clear” or “casual” in their descriptions.

Does the zerker mentality annoy me? Sure does. I’m a big boy, and I’m learning to ignore it and make my own groups for how I want to play.

This is very much an agree to disagree situation and doesn’t need champs from both sides trying to “kill/exalt zerker meta.”

maha.7902:

@pdavis

I get alot of flack for using a valk warrior axe/axe build with shouts or banners. I am good at this build, having spend alot of time and research into how to play it well. I don’t join “zerker only” or “speed clear” LFGs. If anyone wants to do a glass cannon berserk build. Great! More power to you! But please, for the Six sake, don’t hate on those who don’t feel the same way about beserker as you do. Don’t think that because we have a different play style/build that we are bad players. Our builds require just as much skill as beserker, just different. We still need to know when to dodge, watch telegraphs, when to pop a certain utility or weapon skill, use what skills at what times for combo finishers and fields, etc.

Except, you clearly didn’t do research. I remember the thread. You were told to go axe/mace because as a warrior you would have full fury uptime and you didn’t need to use axe 4. Axe 5 is useless since it does worse damage against five targets that axe auto does against three. Your build does not require as much skill because you have vitality as a health buffer – it’s a logical conclusion to draw that the less defensive stats you stack, the more skill it requires since you are forced to go more towards active damage mitigation and less to soaking hits.

If you were dodging key attacks then you literally might as well just run berserker since you can survive with it – the crux of the issue however is that you had ascended valkyrie and you were adamant about using it despite being told to use other gear.

It was that very thread that prompted me to do some more research. I did find that axe 4 did grant a resonable uptime for fury, and axe 5 can be used to build adrenaline quickly, allowing for a near spam of axe F1, it also allowed to help bring down multple adds at the same time, as axe 5 is basically an AoE. Put that together with beserkers might, and burst precision, I can do a reasonable amount of damage in a short period of time. I found that my gearset, with the traits and weapons I have chosen, can do very well, yes its not the highest DPS, it’s not full glass. But I still need to dodge to 1 shot boss attacks, still need to move out of range from telegraphed attacks, still need to know when to pop axe F1 for maximum damage, etc. I still run the same gear set, and trait according to the situation and group. But I’ve noticed in BAD PUGs with the beserkers lying dead, I can more often than not solo the boss until completion. I’m not saying my valk setup is better than beserker, each of them have their place, its more of a preferencial playstyle than anything.

Fine is a little relative. It is optimal to point where it overshadows about everything else in 50% of the game. Its just how the game is. Active defenses are just too good, and completely null any downside to zerk.

Different stat sets shine in pvp at least. It would be neat to have that dynamic over in PvE, but short of a total rework, not seeing how they would go about it. More undodgeable attacks can only do so much.

Rauderi.8706:

Sigh, can we stop having this “discussion” already?

Berserker gear is fine.

Yes, there are elitists who would use any and every measure to exclude “bads” from groups. Let them wait in LFG queues.

Yes, there are players and white knights who will take anyone to a group, maybe even teach them dungeon mechanics. They are brave and patient souls indeed. Let them make LFG runs with “full clear” or “casual” in their descriptions.

Does the zerker mentality annoy me? Sure does. I’m a big boy, and I’m learning to ignore it and make my own groups for how I want to play.

This is very much an agree to disagree situation and doesn’t need champs from both sides trying to “kill/exalt zerker meta.”

Don’t you see that you’re perpetuating the very issue you’re complaining about by calling it the “zerker mentality?” I hesitate to call it even call it “elitist,” because elitist would imply a level of exclusivity that pugs would never be eligible to participate in.

It’s not a “zerker mentality” it’s a “jerk player mentality.” It’s jerk players that call you out for no reason, join pugs expecting organized-run level optimization, boot you for running on your ranger, thief, or upleveled, etc.

Just because they wear zerker gear and blindly adhere to the meta doesn’t make it fair to lump anyone who wears zerker gear in the same group as jerk players.

It was that very thread that prompted me to do some more research. I did find that axe 4 did grant a resonable uptime for fury

For Great Justice and (traited) Signet of Rage is 44 seconds of fury every 48 seconds. You don’t need axe 4 fury in a group.

and axe 5 can be used to build adrenaline quickly, allowing for a near spam of axe F1, it also allowed to help bring down multple adds at the same time, as axe 5 is basically an AoE

Healing surge/signet of fury. Spamming eviscerate isn’t that much of a DPS increase anyway, especially if you use berserker’s power, in which case it’s a flat loss.

Axe 5 is less damage if it hits five enemies than axe auto is hitting three enemies. I can give you the numbers I recorded if you want, or you can take my word for it. If you use axe auto the mob dies faster which means if a party member goes down they can rally. If you axe 5, they might go down and not be able to rally.

But I still need to dodge to 1 shot boss attacks, still need to move out of range from telegraphed attacks, still need to know when to pop axe F1 for maximum damage, etc. I still run the same gear set, and trait according to the situation and group.

If you still get one-shotted, use berserker. It’s basically more damage at no loss in survivability.

But I’ve noticed in BAD PUGs with the beserkers lying dead, I can more often than not solo the boss until completion. I’m not saying my valk setup is better than beserker, each of them have their place, its more of a preferencial playstyle than anything.

And when I was bothered to pug in dungeons, there were lots of Arah runs where my party ate the floor (you know, “bad pugs”) and I soloed the rest of the fight. Or they couldn’t do a skip and I just solo the next boss to pop the waypoint.

I’m not saying my valk setup is better than beserker, each of them have their place, its more of a preferencial playstyle than anything.

Here is the “place” for valkyrie – you enjoy roleplaying a tank, you enjoy roleplaying “support”, you want to use your ascended drop, you’re too lazy to get berserker or you want to make some sort of statement about how valkyrie is fine (which it is, but it’s suboptimal). It’s one of those four which is why you take an armour set with a defensive stat.

Fine is a little relative. It is optimal to point where it overshadows about everything else in 50% of the game. Its just how the game is. Active defenses are just too good, and completely null any downside to zerk.

The downside is you’re squishy. And let’s get something straight – you’re not an elite dungeon runner like some of us here are, so you’re not just dodging all of the attacks. You’re eating hits, you’re going down and you’re not invincible. Berserker gear has risks. Even in our dungeon runs we make mistakes and go down. The risk is there.

Different stat sets shine in pvp at least. It would be neat to have that dynamic over in PvE, but short of a total rework, not seeing how they would go about it. More undodgeable attacks can only do so much.

Mai Trin’s pistol shot is undodgeable. So …. we run berserker and the guy who has pistol aggro blocks it.

Undodgeable attacks don’t stop us running it. Unblockable attacks don’t stop us. Unreflectable attack don’t stop us. People need to stop suggesting these things which only punish the pug community. Us speed runners will blitz through it no matter what is done.

Belzebu.3912:

Bosses with 1 hit KO = designed for zerker

I have found very few enemies that will, in fact, 1 hit KO. However, I have found many more than can 1 hit KO me when I am using berzerker gear.

I normally use berzerker gear, but it amazes me how many times I hear “It will down you in one hit, anyway, so only dodges, blinds and blocks work. Don’t bring anything but berzerkers.”

I wear my aurora armor (for the Melandru runes), knight’s armor, PVT armor or celestial armor and find I can take 3 or more hits just fine. However, when I am wearing my berzerkers armor, I only take 1-2 hits. I keep hearing if I do higher level fractals I will change my mind, but I also heard that about Arah and other unspecified “high end” dungeon paths, too. I can still do them with or without berzerker.

The best reason to use berzerkers, IMHO, is that it is fast if you can survive. In Crucible of Eternity, for example, the first ice brood dog boss can take about 3 times as long in a strong non-berzerker group than a strong berzerker group.

Scrambles.2604:

Just because they wear zerker gear and blindly adhere to the meta doesn’t make it fair to lump anyone who wears zerker gear in the same group as jerk players.

And I did not.

Honestly, who do I want on the other side of a boss that I’m using my warrior to tank? The dps guy kitted out in the best kitten gear he can find. (And yes, I said tank. Because I do.) And the best dps gear is Berserker. No lie.

Heck, most of my warrior gear is Berserker, because my build is defensive, and I still get away with ignoring half the game’s damage mechanics and surviving things I shouldn’t. My friend dragged my build to PvP, and he got compliments for the synergy he provided.

I don’t even have (much of) a problem with “lf1m zerk only” as a description. It’s what those players want. It’s rude, but it’s what they want. A group like that is probably high stress, anyway, the moment a run goes north of 9 minutes.
I say the same thing about champ trains and guild runs and just about anything else.

Play how you want. Just don’t be a jerk about it.
What more needs to be said?

Bread.7516:

Xenon.4537:

ITT: people not reading what I post.

Yes you can do non-zerker.

Non-zerker is less efficient (hence why zerker is meta).

The reason why zerker is meta is because of the design of the content.

The content is too simple.

The content is stack and DPS.

The content was designed this way.

They designed it so that bosses only throw out 1 or 2 deadly attacks that can be dodged.

They designed bosses with high health pools that can be wedged into a corner, stacked and burned.

They might not have intended it, but this is what we got. Plain and simple.

So you guys are saying Anet didn’t sit down and say “Okay, how do we make Zerker meta?” Yes you’re right. They didn’t do that. Instead they sat down and designed something, and the best solution to their design happened to be the zerker meta.

So the content is designed, regardless of intention, to produce a zerker meta. Hence why we have a zerker meta.

Good players still wear berserker on solo runs where you don;t really “stack” explain that.

All games have a meta.

Oh and this: http://i.imgur.com/jJraP8Y.png

Belzebu.3912:

Bosses with 1 hit KO = designed for zerker
Bosses with with slow strong attacks = designed for zerker
Bosses immune to condition (I’m looking at you Assault Knights) = designed for zerker
Bosses where you don’t have space to ress others = designed for zerker (as in, even with tank build you can’t tank while ressing others and you won’t have damage to kill the boss)

There are probably more examples, but I can’t think in others right now.
EDIT: I only mentioned bosses because there are no regular mob that requires skill to fight, so the faster you kill the best (AKA zerker)

Play an action game, because obviously you haven;t.

While I don’t agree with Xenon, why take Mr. Hrouda out of context? Playing with Berserker’s is one way to play, not the “intended way” to play. Even Hrouda is not playing the way the “intended way”, in the same post you claim he is telling us Berserker’s playstyle is “intended.”

Yes Berserker’s is currently optimal, but that doesn’t mean it’s the intended way to play GW2, nor are non berserker’s players necessarily bad players (which you didn’t mention on this thread, to be sure.)

pdavis.8031:

While I agree with that, from my experience, it’s the mindset that TENDS to come with the gear. You see it even in this thread, with phrases like “Sub Par”, “Sub optimal”, “better skilled”, etc. It’s subtle, but it’s there. While a non DPS {insert gear here} build is “sub optimal” when compared to a DPS beserker build, doesn’t mean that gear set/build is bad, unless you are trying to do conditions with healing gear, and physical damage traits on the weapon sets that you don’t have, or something.

So while it may NOT be the gear in and of itself, but as you said, it’s a spring board for that behavior. Again, from my experience, its those running those builds and gearsets who tend to be the worst perpetrators of that behavior. I’ve yet to be chewed out by a cleric build for not doing x,y,z in a dungeon run. So yes, my issue is not with the gear itself, but the attitude that the gear fosters.

Sub Par, Sub Optimal, better skilled are not meant to be offensive. Its just the reality. We are not saying that a player that is using this kind of build is not skilled, only that he need less skill. I get killed in 2 shots with my beserker gear so i have place for only 2 mistake, while on a Valkyrie gear you could be killed in 3 or 4 shots and you have place for 2-3 mistakes not just 1. It doesn’t mean that you are less skilled, only that you don’t need as much skill. We are not saying that you are a suboptimal player, only that you are using a suboptimal build and gear.

We just need to keep it real. I used to have a AH build on my guardian. Did I used that for the party? No. Did I used that for my own survivability because I wasn’t sure enough of my self to run a better build? Totally. Each and single points of Vitality and toughness have ONLY 1 goal. To boost your own survivability.

Is that a bad thing? No at all, as long as you acknowledge it. I have a lot of guildmates with hybrid or tanky build. I like to play with them, but I make sure that they understand that they are doing that only for them. The problem is when you use a tanky or healing build and you think that you are giving something better for the group. No you are not. Its only for you and you only. Its ok, but people just need not to fool themselves. There is plenty of useful support in that game. There is not 1 meta, there is a lot of different good build for most professions. Plenty of choice depending on what you prefer.

Sirendor.1394:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Xenon.4537:

The gear is fine.

The content being designed solely around it isn’t fine.

looks around for content designed solely for berserker gear

>.> <.<

can’t find

Come on lol… berserker gear is promoted because dungeons can be completed by stack and dps. The problem is definitely not the gear, but it definitely IS the content in the dungeon being too mind-numbing stupid.

For all those arguing otherwise… learn to think and stop being a zombie.

Did you just tell people to learn to think and “stop being a zombie” by playing the game in that EXACT manner? Hide in a corner and auto attack! Learn to think by not thinking!

Sun Tzu said that, didn’t he?

Still gonna go into zerker groups with apothecary, because they barely can tell.

Rauderi.8706:

Scrambles.2604:

Just because they wear zerker gear and blindly adhere to the meta doesn’t make it fair to lump anyone who wears zerker gear in the same group as jerk players.

And I did not.

Honestly, who do I want on the other side of a boss that I’m using my warrior to tank? The dps guy kitted out in the best kitten gear he can find. (And yes, I said tank. Because I do.) And the best dps gear is Berserker. No lie.

Heck, most of my warrior gear is Berserker, because my build is defensive, and I still get away with ignoring half the game’s damage mechanics and surviving things I shouldn’t. My friend dragged my build to PvP, and he got compliments for the synergy he provided.

I don’t even have (much of) a problem with “lf1m zerk only” as a description. It’s what those players want. It’s rude, but it’s what they want. A group like that is probably high stress, anyway, the moment a run goes north of 9 minutes.
I say the same thing about champ trains and guild runs and just about anything else.

Play how you want. Just don’t be a jerk about it.
What more needs to be said?

When you call it a “zerker mentality” it sounds like that is the mentality you assume everyone that runs zerker has.

When you refer to a whole group of people with a negative connotation due to the actions of the minority, it creates a conflict because you are indirectly attacking people that have done you no harm.

What more needs to be said? Nothing. In fact, the issue is that too much is being said.

We need to recognize that our problem lies with the bad apple players that reside in every single video game, and move away from picking out arbitrary characteristics these bad players contain (wearing zerker gear), only to attack everyone that also shares those arbitrary characteristics.

Scrambles.2604:

We need to recognize that are problem lies with the bad apple players that reside in every single video game, and move away from picking out arbitrary characteristics these bad players contain (wearing zerker gear), only to attack everyone that also shares those arbitrary characteristics.

Yup.

I’d leave it at “Yup.” but.. 15 characters, or somesuch.

I come to these forums to provide ideas that (sadly and in vain) advance the game. Not to fix things that aren’t broken.

@Maha

As much as I wouldn’t mind continuing this discussion, it is WAY off topic. You run your beserker build, and I’ll run my valkyrie build. At the end of the day we both have fun.

@Thaddeus

Yes, I do acknowledge that toughness/vitality are for ones personal survivablity. I’m not denying that. I prefer to have a bit more surviabilty than being glassy. If I was running in speed clear groups I would gear/trait accordingly. But I don’t. I run casual groups and have fun. Whether or not it’s “sub optimal” is a moot point for me, as I’m doing groups that want to have fun, and not speed clear/faceroll everything. That may be fun for you, but I don’t find it so. And thats ok.

maha.7902:

@Mesket

Different would be if by no mean a berserk could survive said content and requires the constant assistance of a support character, either buffing with aegis, vigor and cleanse or a control character to keep his rotation up to interrupt un-dodgeable attacks.

That’s one of the worst ideas I’ve heard recently. Let’s remove the trinity then add it again for no reason. No, the whole fun of GW2 is you don’t need to have specific classes to beat content.

Because playing this with less roles than GTA online is better? Yeah! lets have many classes and play them all like thief wannabe! You are a wizard? fk off, get a dagger and melee! oh you a ranger? forget it! get a sword and melee! wait.. you have a shield there? drop it and get dps! yeah you are right! sounds more likely of the idea of an mmorpg. Lets completely destroy the concept of a party instead and group 5 damage dealers to do their things together.

Mesket.5728:

maha.7902:

@Mesket

Different would be if by no mean a berserk could survive said content and requires the constant assistance of a support character, either buffing with aegis, vigor and cleanse or a control character to keep his rotation up to interrupt un-dodgeable attacks.

That’s one of the worst ideas I’ve heard recently. Let’s remove the trinity then add it again for no reason. No, the whole fun of GW2 is you don’t need to have specific classes to beat content.

Because playing this with less roles than GTA online is better? Yeah! lets have many classes and play them all like thief wannabe! You are a wizard? fk off, get a dagger and melee! oh you a ranger? forget it! get a sword and melee! wait.. you have a shield there? drop it and get dps! yeah you are right! sounds more likely of the idea of an mmorpg. Lets completely destroy the concept of a party instead and group 5 damage dealers to do their things together.

If you don’t like GW2 there is no shortage of other games on Steam you could check out that will fulfill your desire for traditional trinity MMO.

maha.7902:

If I hadn’t completely wiped the floor with every single thing you said, you wouldn’t have said anything like that, but thanks to your lack of counterargument, you now just want to slink away.

Yeah.. thing is, you haven’t. You’ve justified your own gameplay by insulting everyone else. I’m loathe to point fingers, but it’s attitudes like yours that bring so much flak to the “elite” set in the first place.

We wouldn’t even have these ‘zerker’ threads if speed-run groups had a better reputation for civility.

Rauderi.8706:

We wouldn’t even have these ‘zerker’ threads if speed-run groups had a better reputation for civility were accessible by everyone without having to expend effort or build skill.

Yeah.. thing is, you haven’t. You’ve justified your own gameplay by insulting everyone else. I’m loathe to point fingers, but it’s attitudes like yours that bring so much flak to the “elite” set in the first place.

pdavis argues about and offers justifications for his build/trait/weapon/playstyle choices.

I offer reasons why his justifications are incorrect.

I also state his playstyle is fine, just suboptimal from an efficiency perspective.

how have I “insulted everyone else”?

Scrambles.2604:

Rauderi.8706:

We wouldn’t even have these ‘zerker’ threads if speed-run groups had a better reputation for civility were accessible by everyone without having to expend effort or build skill.

I’m sensing some hypocracy in your zerker support modus operandus. -_-
And at the same time, I’m seeing evidence that supports my hypothesis.

Maybe I’m taking it the wrong way, but negating a statement about reputation and civility and turning it into a statement of blaming on “everyone” (read as “the bads”) with no “effort” or “skill” is exactly the kind of thing that turns people off.

Philosophically, you can’t call for “being nice to zerkers” in one breath and slam another group in the next and still be taken seriously. But maybe I misinterpreted, which is also possible.

maha.7902:

If I hadn’t completely wiped the floor with every single thing you said, you wouldn’t have said anything like that, but thanks to your lack of counterargument, you now just want to slink away.

I stopped the aurgument because of A) it is off topic, B ) continuing this converstion would only result in more personal attacks against each other, and anyone else who wanted to join in, and C) It’s counter productive. Clearly beserker DPS is the fastest way to clear content. Period. Ripping apart my build and/or any other build because you don’t like it for whatever reason only serves to create dissention, and nothing more.

Furthermore, it’s this attitude that I was refering to ealier. It serves no purpose other than to stroke the ego of such players who get their jollies from putting down other players. I understand its not the entire beserker community, not saying it is. But the fact remains that it is there, and does more damage to the game as a whole than any broken mechanics and meta builds will ever do.

maha.7902:

Yeah.. thing is, you haven’t. You’ve justified your own gameplay by insulting everyone else. I’m loathe to point fingers, but it’s attitudes like yours that bring so much flak to the “elite” set in the first place.

pdavis argues about and offers justifications for his build/trait/weapon/playstyle choices.

I offer reasons why his justifications are incorrect.

I also state his playstyle is fine, just suboptimal from an efficiency perspective.

how have I “insulted everyone else”?

“Here is the “place” for valkyrie – you enjoy roleplaying a tank, you enjoy roleplaying “support”, you want to use your ascended drop, you’re too lazy to get berserker or you want to make some sort of statement about how valkyrie is fine (which it is, but it’s suboptimal). It’s one of those four which is why you take an armour set with a defensive stat.”
Here’s a nice example. You may not have noticed, but to the casual reader it looks like you’re trying to bully him into a zerker spec.