Guild Wars 2

Gaile Gray.6029:

As Mike O’Brien said in a recent post, "We’ve set a clear policy in the past year: we don’t talk speculatively about future development. We don’t want to string you along.

There is a difference on stringing people along and giving information.
I don’t really care what new maps are coming next, but I do care a lot if there will be a real additions to the map (the two small areas we have had since launch are nice, but they are just too small) or new races/classes at some point.
Stringing people along would, in example, be to promise them an expansion X. Giving people information would be saying that we are developing an expansion to be revealed at later. There is a difference.

Alerno.1425:

Gaile Gray.6029:

As Mike O’Brien said in a recent post, "We’ve set a clear policy in the past year: we don’t talk speculatively about future development. We don’t want to string you along.

There is a difference on stringing people along and giving information.
I don’t really care what new maps are coming next, but I do care a lot if there will be a real additions to the map (the two small areas we have had since launch are nice, but they are just too small) or new races/classes at some point.
Stringing people along would, in example, be to promise them an expansion X. Giving people information would be saying that we are developing an expansion to be revealed at later. There is a difference.

Problem with that is people would consider it ‘official’ regardless of what words are used like, “we’re designing/developing/? for the future” just because you (and I for that matter) can make the distinction between what might become ‘vaporware’ and reality does not encompass the entire player base, so because of this that not everyone can understand this concept its better nothing said, than something said and it not come to fruition.

What can be said I think is the current state of the game, example: like the missing animation for the female characters, or other insights into ‘existing’ problems & or bugs with the game that people have raised, items that don’t need promises that are common sense, while it is common sense and even stating things that are goes a long way to ease anxieties.

Look, the problem isn’t abstract or in the past where there isn’t something to be done right now. Mad Kings Day. All posts asking what will arrive on Tuesday have been met with silence for months.

That has nothing to do with optimistic sharing, nothing to do with future development. It’s just completely a problem of no communication.

If you are serious about hoping to improve things, then start there. Otherwise this all rings sort of hollow.

Well, they HAVE told us that the event from last year will repeat.

Later in October, we’ll be bringing back our famous Halloween festivities! Blood and Madness will be returning to Guild Wars 2 on October 21 and remain active until the return of Season 2.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/upcoming-events-in-guildwars2/

I do wonder why they should bother being more transparent when people quite clearly doesn’t even read what they do tell us.

The majority of people I see speaking about Halloween in LA are reminiscing about the first year when the JP was in and the dungeon, reaper’s rumble, etc. and how they were so disappointed about how none of that made it into last year’s iteration.

Being in tune with your playerbase is knowing what people want and I’ve found (based on conversations) that most don’t want that degree of change, and more specifically, lack of content from last year that was released in the first year.

Getting us all excited for Halloween might be good for new players, but for veterans it’s a bit of ‘hold your breath’ and see if they actually know how to listen to us, or just guess what we want, and that’ll do.

All this talk about what will happen this Halloween (it being my first event for Guild Wars 2), its odd to me that this never came up in Guild Wars 1 when we had events like Halloween, Christmas, etc. we never expected whole new content each time the best we wondered about was — “What was the new hat going to be!?”, “How much fun we was going to have in snowball arena”, etc. but I can’t think of a single instance where in Guild Wars 1 we even thought they’d add net content to the event.

We did however hope they would add to the content after the event, (never really happened).

@Gaile what u explained only appears/happens when u continue not satisfying the needs of the overall population of the game, instead putting effort in stuff we either don’t care, notice or don’t see as a priority. There have been things asked for since beta by a lot of people. There is literally no excuse for any of u at ANet for not achieving those needs. It’s like u guys make up excuses not to make stuff (the larger part of the community) wants. I can’t take you or Mike seriously i am sorry.
- No expansion
- 1 small (good) map in 2 years (southsun was such a fail and still is, we won’t take it into consideration)
- no races/classes/weapon types (skills u did add a few and they changed the game quite a bit in a good way i give u that)
- no precursor crafting (am not even going to bother detailing this any more…it’s gotten to the point u are literally trolling us)
- hands down the most unrewarding drops in any mmo i’ve played so far with no one able to give me another example, combined with extreme-grind for nothing really.
- EoTM…good map for farmer PvE players..literally NO USE to WvW players. The queue thing is debatable specially when u need ppl in WvW but they instead go in EoTM
- a LOT of bugged events that have been since the start of the game….but u instead fix anything that can be exploited by players in order to get a few more gold
- housing, guild halls, gvg…things that not only were asked even since beta, but they should have been mandatory.

Instead what did we get so far from u?
Gemstore items, A few UI teweeks and bug fixes (2 years…let that sink in), gemstore items, repetitive copypaste holiday events, Gemstore items, a 1 day worth of content at best living story that took a huge break to the point a lot of ppl don’t care anymore, and the amount of what u do during this season definitely seems less compared to last year, Gemstore items, wvw tournament (which i agree got better this time), Gemstore items, a new map in the LS which i admit it’s fun but again 2 years…..did it sink in your mind the firt time? let it sink even deeper, more Gemstore items with a trinkle of Gemstore items and just for the lulz we will give u a Gemstore item souce and a Gemstore item desert to go in your Gemstore bag.

Look..i am not saying that Gemstore items are bad…but when the percentage of what u give us visibly is 70-80% payed stuff and what u give us (from what the majority wants and we asked for 2 years now) is 20-30% I personally call bull- kitten . This game turned into Gemstore Wars 2

I am sorry but at this point in time anything u link i can only see as an excuse for more Gemstore items.

Valandil Dragonhart.2371:

The majority of people I see speaking about Halloween in LA are reminiscing about the first year when the JP was in and the dungeon, reaper’s rumble, etc. and how they were so disappointed about how none of that made it into last year’s iteration.

While most of this is true the JP was very much available last year.

I also seem to recall people quite disliking the dungeon and Reaper’s Rumble during the first Halloween, which might very well be the reason why they didn’t put them back during year two.

lordkrall.7241:

Well, they HAVE told us that the event from last year will repeat.

Later in October, we’ll be bringing back our famous Halloween festivities! Blood and Madness will be returning to Guild Wars 2 on October 21 and remain active until the return of Season 2.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/upcoming-events-in-guildwars2/

I do wonder why they should bother being more transparent when people quite clearly doesn’t even read what they do tell us.

I think most everyone here read that, though you can hardly berate people because they didn’t manage to read a sentence in a blog post from a month ago. Nor can you blame people for thinking that they would release more than just that single sentence by the time the patch is going to hit in a few days. Considering that they’ve done that every single time they’ve released an update in my memory. Jesus, they announced Feature Pack updates with a new blog post every day for THREE WEEKS.

How can anyone pretend that sitting here less than a week before the patch hits with no updates to the news blog other than a set of new minis isn’t unusual? They did a fun promotion for a new event to celebrate Mad King’s Day on Facebook, but it was for a fan event. They promoted that fan content over the content they’re about to provide.

Rebound.3409:

@Gaile what u explained only appears/happens when u continue not satisfying the needs of the overall population of the game
…
- No expansion
- 1 small (good) map in 2 years (southsun was such a fail and still is, we won’t take it into consideration)
- no races/classes/weapon types (skills u did add a few and they changed the game quite a bit in a good way i give u that)
- no precursor crafting (am not even going to bother detailing this any more…it’s gotten to the point u are literally trolling us)
- hands down the most unrewarding drops in any mmo i’ve played so far with no one able to give me another example, combined with extreme-grind for nothing really.
- EoTM…good map for farmer PvE players..literally NO USE to WvW players. The queue thing is debatable specially when u need ppl in WvW but they instead go in EoTM
- a LOT of bugged events that have been since the start of the game….but u instead fix anything that can be exploited by players in order to get a few more gold
- housing, guild halls, gvg…things that not only were asked even since beta, but they should have been mandatory.

Did you happen to see the Player Based GW2 2nd Year Statistics? It tries to sum the progress in GW2 year 2. It was ignored by Gaile/John.

@ Phenn: I love your last post! Couldn’t have said it better. I’d be surprised if you’ll be responded to, since your post is tagged “unfavorable” now.

Wwwes is right: I’m puzzled why they didn’t even popped a blog post saying “Halloween event” while they released a picture of a portal for LS2 3 months before it happens…

ANet is strangely battling against anything logical, and that will be there loss: too different doesn’t mean better.

@Korossive: Yup saw that link..pretty much sums things up.

aerial.7021:

All this talk about what will happen this Halloween (it being my first event for Guild Wars 2), its odd to me that this never came up in Guild Wars 1 when we had events like Halloween, Christmas, etc. we never expected whole new content each time the best we wondered about was — “What was the new hat going to be!?”, “How much fun we was going to have in snowball arena”, etc. but I can’t think of a single instance where in Guild Wars 1 we even thought they’d add net content to the event.

Well, most of people didn’t think they would make significant changes to Halloween in gw2. But Anet did make those changes, and changed the event for the worse. It’s no wonder people are wary about what may happen this year.

lordkrall.7241:

Well, they HAVE told us that the event from last year will repeat.

Later in October, we’ll be bringing back our famous Halloween festivities! Blood and Madness will be returning to Guild Wars 2 on October 21 and remain active until the return of Season 2.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/upcoming-events-in-guildwars2/

I do wonder why they should bother being more transparent when people quite clearly doesn’t even read what they do tell us.

That tells us that halloween will repeat (big news, that). It doesn’t really tell us, however, if it will be identical to the last one (which would be lazy, since some of the events there were visibly designed as one-shots, and having them repeat every year would be weird), or if there will be any changes.

This will go round and round in circles and occasionally include a comment regurgitating the “look what happened when they said this before ……” phrase which will be spun as a defense. The reality is, Anet needs to stop propagating the fact that they want to be transparent when they self impose limitations that preclude the ability to be transparent. You can’t tell us what we want to know and whatever your reasons are that’s the truth of the matter so don’t pretend that real communication exists when real information cannot be shared. There cannot be transparency because your own policy prohibits it from happening, end of story.
Communication at best should be termed discussion of ideas such as the CDI which hold value for some but that’s the limit you’ve set for yourselves and no amount of spin can change that until someone within the organization recognizes the need to lift said policy.
If it truly is within Anet’s ability to change the policy, then my hope is they do so, or continue to try and change the minds of those preventing the change. I know some may not appreciate the way I’ve expressed myself at the frustration of having to sit in the dark hoping you’re making the right moves with the game, but I honestly do feel very badly for all your employees who are forced to come here and deal with these issues, hands tied and no real voice, it’s shameful.

Gaile Gray.6029:

I’m sort of writing to think, but I’d like to understand what truly reaches the point of “I’d like more info, but I’m satisfied with what you’ve been able to tell us right now.”

Gaile, if you haven’t read it before, I recommend reading The Web Is a Customer Service Medium by Paul Ford. In particular, this paragraph is key here:

“Why wasn’t I consulted,” which I abbreviate as WWIC, is the fundamental question of the web. It is the rule from which other rules are derived. Humans have a fundamental need to be consulted, engaged, to exercise their knowledge (and thus power), and no other medium that came before has been able to tap into that as effectively.

As I said earlier in the thread, I’ve seen recent evidence that ArenaNet is listening to what people are saying on the forums but I also said I had concerns about the direction the game is going in and am concerned that ArenaNet doesn’t always interpret the message from the players correctly. I’m also concerned that ArenaNet will listen to the complaint of some players, which may be perfectly legitimate, and then implement a fix that absolutely destroys the game for other players. Without any back and forth dialog or consultation with the entire player community, the odds of such problems happening are fairly huge.

What happens in any complex game like this is that improving the game for one segment of the player community can harm the game for another segment of the community. For example, if you listen to hardcover players who want challenging content that can only be done through skill and coordination, you’ll alienate casual players who can’t do it. If you make all your content casual-friendly, you’ll bore your hardcore players. And players who are unhappy often don’t make much noise, so what can happen is that a change will be made to appease unhappy noisy players that destroys something that other players loved that maybe ArenaNet wasn’t even aware of, thus destroying the game for them. I think that happened with the megaservers.

The megaservers solved one set of problems that players were complaining about (empty maps and events that never or almost never got completed on low-population servers) and may have been very useful for ArenaNet by allowing the consolidation of servers, but it harmed or even ruined the game for other players, and I am not exaggerating with the word “ruined”.

Two of my friends (who played daily, have over 10,000 achievement points, spent money in the gem store, and got me to play Guild Wars 2 as my first MMO) have entirely stopped playing Guild Wars 2 because of what the megaservers did to the PvE part of the game and world events. They didn’t leave to go play another game. They just stopped playing Guild Wars 2 because they don’t enjoy it anymore. The megaservers wrecked the small town community feel that our server had, when a handful of familiar people would do events.

It also destroyed the community feel for people who liked to hang out in the cities like Lion’s Arch and chat. It made it hard for the role-players to find each other and play together. It made it nearly impossible to recruit for WvW in the game using map chat because people are no longer grouped by server. It ruined events for players who wanted the challenge of soloing them or doing them in small groups.

Sure, the megaservers fixed one problem but made a huge mess in a lot of other places. And we’re stuck with it without having been consulted and left wondering just how much of this was considered by ArenaNet before it was implemented. As a result, I’m very concerned about how ArenaNet might make other fixes to things like WvW (e.g., forced server merges) without considering what they’re going to destroy in the process.

In other words, people are concerned that if we don’t find out about the changes until they are a done deal that we’re going to be surprised in an unpleasant way by what we get because that’s already happened a few times.

Communication theory, 101.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Communicating-with-you/page/15#post4328343

I still don’t get it. Other companies talk in detail about an expansion about a year before release, let the palyes go to their test servers about 6-10 months before the release of the expansion and let communicate the community with the devs to even things out.

Here we don’t have any idea what the ‘next big thing’ is. Can’t imagine that’s those small mini updates in form of LS is. That would be ridiculous.

Roybe.5896:

Communication theory, 101.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Communicating-with-you/page/15#post4328343

The community cannot change anything at this stage, we don’t have the power all we can do is sit in silence and choose to wait for them to open up. In order to fix something one party has to make a move and since we are on the outside looking in, the ball is literally in their court now.

The community has to take the initiative and make the first move…..to another game.

U will see how fast they open up then.

Black Desert soon™

Berk.8561:

Gaile Gray.6029:

I’m sort of writing to think, but I’d like to understand what truly reaches the point of “I’d like more info, but I’m satisfied with what you’ve been able to tell us right now.”

In other words, people are concerned that if we don’t find out about the changes until they are a done deal that we’re going to be surprised in an unpleasant way by what we get because that’s already happened a few times.

My wife, who is a longtime player of the game and longtime defender of the game against the various trolls that complain about it, has also mostly gotten very tired of the total lack of info. And she pointed out that the history of Guild Wars is full of times when the company tries to surprise the players with something or puts in a fix without telling anyone ahead of time, and it nearly always goes poorly. Like 80% of the time they do this, it is a gigantic disaster that brings the morale of the players down for at least a week. And then is often followed up by the devs having to do a full court press here to defend their decisions.

I do think they want to do better in future, but it’s a bad habit that should always be in the back of their minds. The company has a tendency to think, “this will be easier if we just make a choice ourselves and deal with the blowback later”, and that instinct almost always leads to that blowback being much stronger and longer lasting.

Vlad Morbius.1759:

Roybe.5896:

Communication theory, 101.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Communicating-with-you/page/15#post4328343

The community cannot change anything at this stage, we don’t have the power all we can do is sit in silence and choose to wait for them to open up. In order to fix something one party has to make a move and since we are on the outside looking in, the ball is literally in their court now.

Actually, we have all the power, all the time, because we have what the game makers want and need: money. Video games aren’t a necessity. We’d be just fine without them. Without us, however, there would be no video game industry. No video game makers. If we could ever agree on, well, anything, the video game makers would dance to our tune — or they’d be seeking employment elsewhere.

Unfortunately, we seldom ever agree on anything, which pretty much gives the video game makers free reign to do (or not do) whatever they want (or don’t want) while we sit back and argue with each other about it.

Smart video game makers understand this and don’t abuse their perch in the fabled catbird seat too grievously or too often, because it can all come crashing down at the drop of a new game enhancement.

Sometimes, though, they forget.

Tachanon, I couldn’t agree more. They made a phenomenal game and I applaud the efforts that have gone into it, but at the end of the day if we had not chosen to acknowledge that work by purchasing and supporting it, it would have all been for nothing. That important point, and the support that long term players have brought seems to have been lost on many, especially the ones controlling the future and information.

lordkrall.7241:

Valandil Dragonhart.2371:

The majority of people I see speaking about Halloween in LA are reminiscing about the first year when the JP was in and the dungeon, reaper’s rumble, etc. and how they were so disappointed about how none of that made it into last year’s iteration.

While most of this is true the JP was very much available last year.

I also seem to recall people quite disliking the dungeon and Reaper’s Rumble during the first Halloween, which might very well be the reason why they didn’t put them back during year two.

Leaving stuff out that is already available because some people don’t like it is a lame excuse. Many people don’t like doing dungeons, should we remove all those from the game. Or what about all the people that hate pvp or wvw, should we remove those also. You should add content not remove it and those that don’t want to do it don’t have to. We all know not everyone is going to like everything. Which is why the more you give and the more varied the options you give, the better the chances of pleasing everyone.

Vlad Morbius.1759:

Roybe.5896:

Communication theory, 101.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Communicating-with-you/page/15#post4328343

The community cannot change anything at this stage, we don’t have the power all we can do is sit in silence and choose to wait for them to open up. In order to fix something one party has to make a move and since we are on the outside looking in, the ball is literally in their court now.

Actually, the community must understand their place in the communication process. We do not have any power in the process, this is true. However, our input does make a difference. Knowing these two facts, and taking them to heart is what is needed.

I repeat this…players have no power in the discussion. (The ONLY power they hold is to stop spending money on the game. This not only hurts the company, but is also cutting off their own nose to spite their face, as long as they desire to play the game. Many players overestimate the importance of this power source. Hint: It is the most important in business, but must be wielded by so many, in coordination, that it is ineffective).

What the forums equate to currently is a suggestion box at a place of business, with all the problems that entails. How frustrating is it that people put 1000’s of suggestions into the box and nothing comes from it, or worse, the suggestions you put in are acted on, but somehow make the workplace even worse to work in.

There is a way to begin to fix this issue. Announce all the suggestions that have been received. Also announce which ones have been implemented. This is the one of the important reasons behind the CDI. Another is the sheer quantity of ideas the CDI can generate from the CDI. However, ideas are just that. No matter how well thought out the suggestion it still has to be implemented into the system, which means it will be changed. Unfortunately, these changes introduce the second problem

The problem I do not know how to fix. This is the one dealing with improper implementation. Without a verification procedure, i.e. a true communication process, implementation of suggestions can lead to bigger communication problems.

The Commander Tag fiasco is a perfect example. It is apparent that the idea was received properly, but the implementation of the suggestion went directly against the reasons for the change to be implemented. This was either a major communication failure, or poor decision making base on inputs. Your choice of either answer is your opinion, which with the lack if information, keeps it in that realm, and increases the psychological noise of the player. We can point out similar problems in many other areas.

If players understand the above, and lower their expectations of the outcome from their suggestions, no matter how many suggest the same thing, we can get suggesting with less noise in the channels, leading to better suggestions. Implementation is up to the devs. Improper implementation is the true crux of this style of communication, and one that we must live with.

Well, as my Father would have put it: “Roll up your pants Son, it’s too late to save your shoes.” Telling players that Anet supports “Transparent Communications with our community” while maintaining a policy of non disclosure as outlined by Mike O’s posting is singular in my experience as both a Project Manager and a Player.

While I recognize Anet’s right to run its business as they see fit you still can’t have it both ways. As Vlad put it "The reality is, Anet needs to stop propagating the fact that they want to be transparent when they self impose limitations that preclude the ability to be transparent. "

Moreover, said policy is something created by humans for humans. It is not carved in stone. As I am fond of saying on my projects “Let me introduce you to my little red pen.”

Unfortunately, the more we ask for information the harder the door is being slammed in our face. I’m very surprised to see Mike, Chris, Gaile et al act as if they are being backed into a corner based on prior experience. That there is an Area 51 of topics that Must Not Be Discussed when it would be simple to post a note that you’re “on top of it” or “here’s the reason for the change” is darn weird to me.

As to the CDI’s they a wonderful way to sandbag (or slow walk) topics that would have been a no-brainer in the past. For example, if the CDI on Guild Halls was so essential to progress how did they ever get added to GW1? Or any other game for that matter? What remains are simply Bread and Circuses.

While I might make conjecture regarding the pressures both Anet and NCSoft are under at the moment it would be untoward to do so. However, the net effect is one of telling us repeatedly that “Transparency? Not our problem and you can’t fix it.”

Sadly, what remains is a situation where the Devs march out Project X while the Players are expecting Project Y.

Everybody loses.

I used to believe that Anet’s lack of transparency was a bad thing, but looking at how quick people are to fly to reddit when something happens that they dont like, in addition to all of the ridiculous suggestions we get and foot-stamping tantrums over the non-inclusion of features that Anet specifically said they’d be steering clear from, I’m actually glad they don’t talk about anything.

It keeps the forums more sane than they would be.

Roybe.5896:

Vlad Morbius.1759:

Roybe.5896:

Communication theory, 101.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Communicating-with-you/page/15#post4328343

The community cannot change anything at this stage, we don’t have the power all we can do is sit in silence and choose to wait for them to open up. In order to fix something one party has to make a move and since we are on the outside looking in, the ball is literally in their court now.

Actually, the community must understand their place in the communication process. We do not have any power in the process, this is true. However, our input does make a difference. Knowing these two facts, and taking them to heart is what is needed.

I repeat this…players have no power in the discussion. (The ONLY power they hold is to stop spending money on the game. This not only hurts the company, but is also cutting off their own nose to spite their face, as long as they desire to play the game. Many players overestimate the importance of this power source. Hint: It is the most important in business, but must be wielded by so many, in coordination, that it is ineffective).

What the forums equate to currently is a suggestion box at a place of business, with all the problems that entails. How frustrating is it that people put 1000’s of suggestions into the box and nothing comes from it, or worse, the suggestions you put in are acted on, but somehow make the workplace even worse to work in.

There is a way to begin to fix this issue. Announce all the suggestions that have been received. Also announce which ones have been implemented. This is the one of the important reasons behind the CDI. Another is the sheer quantity of ideas the CDI can generate from the CDI. However, ideas are just that. No matter how well thought out the suggestion it still has to be implemented into the system, which means it will be changed. Unfortunately, these changes introduce the second problem

The problem I do not know how to fix. This is the one dealing with improper implementation. Without a verification procedure, i.e. a true communication process, implementation of suggestions can lead to bigger communication problems.

The Commander Tag fiasco is a perfect example. It is apparent that the idea was received properly, but the implementation of the suggestion went directly against the reasons for the change to be implemented. This was either a major communication failure, or poor decision making base on inputs. Your choice of either answer is your opinion, which with the lack if information, keeps it in that realm, and increases the psychological noise of the player. We can point out similar problems in many other areas.

If players understand the above, and lower their expectations of the outcome from their suggestions, no matter how many suggest the same thing, we can get suggesting with less noise in the channels, leading to better suggestions. Implementation is up to the devs. Improper implementation is the true crux of this style of communication, and one that we must live with.

TLDR of the above: Anet dropped the soap and wants you to pick it up.

If Anet wants to continue making games they will have to change their tune. They do not have anything apart from the guild wars franchise and they won’t if they stick to their stubborn, we don’t talk about stuff in development, attitude.

Conner.4702:

Roybe.5896:

Vlad Morbius.1759:

Roybe.5896:

Communication theory, 101.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Communicating-with-you/page/15#post4328343

The community cannot change anything at this stage, we don’t have the power all we can do is sit in silence and choose to wait for them to open up. In order to fix something one party has to make a move and since we are on the outside looking in, the ball is literally in their court now.

Actually, the community must understand their place in the communication process. We do not have any power in the process, this is true. However, our input does make a difference. Knowing these two facts, and taking them to heart is what is needed.

I repeat this…players have no power in the discussion. (The ONLY power they hold is to stop spending money on the game. This not only hurts the company, but is also cutting off their own nose to spite their face, as long as they desire to play the game. Many players overestimate the importance of this power source. Hint: It is the most important in business, but must be wielded by so many, in coordination, that it is ineffective).

What the forums equate to currently is a suggestion box at a place of business, with all the problems that entails. How frustrating is it that people put 1000’s of suggestions into the box and nothing comes from it, or worse, the suggestions you put in are acted on, but somehow make the workplace even worse to work in.

There is a way to begin to fix this issue. Announce all the suggestions that have been received. Also announce which ones have been implemented. This is the one of the important reasons behind the CDI. Another is the sheer quantity of ideas the CDI can generate from the CDI. However, ideas are just that. No matter how well thought out the suggestion it still has to be implemented into the system, which means it will be changed. Unfortunately, these changes introduce the second problem

The problem I do not know how to fix. This is the one dealing with improper implementation. Without a verification procedure, i.e. a true communication process, implementation of suggestions can lead to bigger communication problems.

The Commander Tag fiasco is a perfect example. It is apparent that the idea was received properly, but the implementation of the suggestion went directly against the reasons for the change to be implemented. This was either a major communication failure, or poor decision making base on inputs. Your choice of either answer is your opinion, which with the lack if information, keeps it in that realm, and increases the psychological noise of the player. We can point out similar problems in many other areas.

If players understand the above, and lower their expectations of the outcome from their suggestions, no matter how many suggest the same thing, we can get suggesting with less noise in the channels, leading to better suggestions. Implementation is up to the devs. Improper implementation is the true crux of this style of communication, and one that we must live with.

TLDR of the above: Anet dropped the soap and wants you to pick it up.

If Anet wants to continue making games they will have to change their tune. They do not have anything apart from the guild wars franchise and they won’t if they stick to their stubborn, we don’t talk about stuff in development, attitude.

TLDR
If those in the forum community do not understand their place in the current structure, they will leave in numbers to small to matter.

Overblown expectations of suggestions given are the main reason for these peoples discontent. Arenanet’s lack of transparency only exacerbates this problem.
__________________________________________________________________

NcSoft, controlled by Nexon, will always make games, with or without the help of Arenanet. Arenanet can fight whatever battles it wants against these changes, but in the end what the boss says, goes.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Yes, that’s definitely true. As Mike O’Brien said in a recent post, “We’ve set a clear policy in the past year: we don’t talk speculatively about future development. We don’t want to string you along. Creating fun is an uncertain business: sometimes things work out and sometimes they don’t; sometimes we go back to the drawing board over and over before we get something right. If we make optimistic promises and then can’t deliver on them, everyone suffers. So when we attend a trade show or give an interview, we’re there to talk about what we’re getting ready to ship, not to speculate on what we might ship someday.”

We truly understand the interest that our loyal players have in knowing more, but we’re not able to share too much at this juncture for the reasons that are stated above and outlined in more detail in Mike’s post.

Rest assured — and my daily e-mails confirm this — the devs are reading the forums daily to keep abreast of your input on a wide variety of game elements, in addition to which they’re analyzing, prioritizing, weighing whether to and how to address areas of concern, considering how to implement positive changes, and much more, based on the input you give us on the forums.

As Mike also said in his post, much value has come through the CDI’s. I just prowled the hallways to see if I could find out more about the timeline for the current and future CDI. Alas, Chris Whiteside is in a meeting, but I know he’s committed to the format so I hope you’ll be involved in those and if there are some dates he or I can provide one of us will do that later.

This is such completely absurd idea. There is no reason you can’t disclose things you are/would like to work on/change. If it’s going slowly or becomes unworkable you can simply be honest and say it. More ANET FAIL.

Well that being said, maybe we should start a Kickstarter program to free Anet from this mess.

@Vlad Find out how much NCSoft would sell it for! Then start it up!

I love this game but if they dont add more to it, Black Desert can seriously take it down, and me with it

Gaile Gray.6029:

Berk.8561:

And that’s probably exactly why they’ve stopped talking about anything that’s not almost ready to be deployed, because anything they say that they are working on or intend on implementing with generate type and players will care about it a lot and they’ll get angry if it never happens or doesn’t happen for a long time.

Yes, that’s definitely true. As Mike O’Brien said in a recent post, “We’ve set a clear policy in the past year: we don’t talk speculatively about future development. We don’t want to string you along. Creating fun is an uncertain business: sometimes things work out and sometimes they don’t; sometimes we go back to the drawing board over and over before we get something right. If we make optimistic promises and then can’t deliver on them, everyone suffers. So when we attend a trade show or give an interview, we’re there to talk about what we’re getting ready to ship, not to speculate on what we might ship someday.”

We truly understand the interest that our loyal players have in knowing more, but we’re not able to share too much at this juncture for the reasons that are stated above and outlined in more detail in Mike’s post.

Rest assured — and my daily e-mails confirm this — the devs are reading the forums daily to keep abreast of your input on a wide variety of game elements, in addition to which they’re analyzing, prioritizing, weighing whether to and how to address areas of concern, considering how to implement positive changes, and much more, based on the input you give us on the forums.

As Mike also said in his post, much value has come through the CDI’s. I just prowled the hallways to see if I could find out more about the timeline for the current and future CDI. Alas, Chris Whiteside is in a meeting, but I know he’s committed to the format so I hope you’ll be involved in those and if there are some dates he or I can provide one of us will do that later.

Yeah, he said it. Its still not a good idea. Its very bad reasoning to say nothing for fear of someone misunderstanding something. The best way to handle misrepresentation of information is with accurate information.

Not to mention in this business YOU NEED to show a path/direction. This whole game as a service thing hinges upon people believing the service will continue, and grow. If there is announcements of intent, on valued content, you would see players increase dramatically.

Because part of this business is about the future of the game, which is currently a murky mess.

Its the wrong answer, it continues to be the wrong answer. There will never be any benefit to that policy.

Vlad Morbius.1759:

Well that being said, maybe we should start a Kickstarter program to free Anet from this mess.

::laughs::

No.

ANet pulling free from NCSoft might have been possible before the China release, but now it’s far too late. If they try to pull free now, NCSoft will just send a message some Friday morning and tell everyone they’re fired (like they did with Paragon Studios). Then, they’ll make a new team to run the game and keep it going in China at the very least. That market, and the reputation they’ve put on the line with it, is far more important to them than ANet itself is.

The people within ANet can leave and try to find new jobs, sure. But the company itself is a lost cause. If NCSoft says jump, ANet jumps.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Yes, that’s definitely true. As Mike O’Brien said in a recent post, “We’ve set a clear policy in the past year: we don’t talk speculatively about future development. We don’t want to string you along. Creating fun is an uncertain business: sometimes things work out and sometimes they don’t; sometimes we go back to the drawing board over and over before we get something right. If we make optimistic promises and then can’t deliver on them, everyone suffers. So when we attend a trade show or give an interview, we’re there to talk about what we’re getting ready to ship, not to speculate on what we might ship someday.”

We truly understand the interest that our loyal players have in knowing more, but we’re not able to share too much at this juncture for the reasons that are stated above and outlined in more detail in Mike’s post.

Rest assured — and my daily e-mails confirm this — the devs are reading the forums daily to keep abreast of your input on a wide variety of game elements, in addition to which they’re analyzing, prioritizing, weighing whether to and how to address areas of concern, considering how to implement positive changes, and much more, based on the input you give us on the forums.

As Mike also said in his post, much value has come through the CDI’s. I just prowled the hallways to see if I could find out more about the timeline for the current and future CDI. Alas, Chris Whiteside is in a meeting, but I know he’s committed to the format so I hope you’ll be involved in those and if there are some dates he or I can provide one of us will do that later.

I think the key issue is that this logic doesn’t lead to the conclusion you came to:

“If we make optimistic promises and then can’t deliver on them, everyone suffers.”

Now, I don’t like the notion that “everyone” suffers in these situations, but just for sake of simplicity, let’s run with it. Here are your options:

Make promise:

Can’t deliver → Everyone suffers.
Can deliver → Yay

Complete silence:

Can’t deliver → Everyone suffers.
Can deliver → Everyone suffers.

The silence option is always bad. The talking option, even assuming that every player is an idiot entirely incapable of understanding that sometimes problems happen, is still the better choice.

This is fun! And I thought I was the only one sick of bad decisions from this company…

You think we can buy the whole product off from them with gems?

CrashTestAuto.9108:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Yes, that’s definitely true. As Mike O’Brien said in a recent post, “We’ve set a clear policy in the past year: we don’t talk speculatively about future development. We don’t want to string you along. Creating fun is an uncertain business: sometimes things work out and sometimes they don’t; sometimes we go back to the drawing board over and over before we get something right. If we make optimistic promises and then can’t deliver on them, everyone suffers. So when we attend a trade show or give an interview, we’re there to talk about what we’re getting ready to ship, not to speculate on what we might ship someday.”

We truly understand the interest that our loyal players have in knowing more, but we’re not able to share too much at this juncture for the reasons that are stated above and outlined in more detail in Mike’s post.

Rest assured — and my daily e-mails confirm this — the devs are reading the forums daily to keep abreast of your input on a wide variety of game elements, in addition to which they’re analyzing, prioritizing, weighing whether to and how to address areas of concern, considering how to implement positive changes, and much more, based on the input you give us on the forums.

As Mike also said in his post, much value has come through the CDI’s. I just prowled the hallways to see if I could find out more about the timeline for the current and future CDI. Alas, Chris Whiteside is in a meeting, but I know he’s committed to the format so I hope you’ll be involved in those and if there are some dates he or I can provide one of us will do that later.

I think the key issue is that this logic doesn’t lead to the conclusion you came to:

“If we make optimistic promises and then can’t deliver on them, everyone suffers.”

Now, I don’t like the notion that “everyone” suffers in these situations, but just for sake of simplicity, let’s run with it. Here are your options:

Make promise:

Can’t deliver -> Everyone suffers.
Can deliver -> Yay

Complete silence:

Can’t deliver -> Everyone suffers.
Can deliver -> Everyone suffers.

The silence option is always bad. The talking option, even assuming that every player is an idiot entirely incapable of understanding that sometimes problems happen, is still the better choice.

The idiot players have the loudest mouths.

And your options are more like:

Make Promise:

->Some people hate it -> Deliver -> Rage
->Some people hate it -> Don’t deliver-> Wheres the update? -> Rage
->Some people hate it -> Changes so they like it -> Taking too long -> Where’s the update? -> Rage
-> The off chance that it’s widely accepted -> Taking too long -> Where’s the update? -> Rage
->The off chance that it’s widely accepted -> Can’t deliver – > Rage
-> The off chance that it’s widely accepted -> Deliver -> Player perception deems it “not as promised” -> Rage

Where as with silence:

Lol, not telling you squat —> Speculation that game is dying -> some ragers leave -> ->Alright, server space! They totally weren’t buying as many gems as they pretended to be -> “just as planned” face -> ->Can totally work on making sure China Gameplay is smooth -> Still Rage, but only for there being silence.

Azure.8670:

I love this game but if they dont add more to it, Black Desert can seriously take it down, and me with it

You mean just like how Elder Scrolls Online and Wildstar did?

No. The difference is in silence, ragers AND casual players leave in equal numbers. It is a fantasy to suggest that with silence you don’t have to worry about people who are angry about the games direction. And a difficult fantasy to maintain, too, since we are in a thread full of that.

You are assuming that casual players are even aware of the silence though. The vast majority of players never visits the forums, nor do they check on Reddit and such. They see what happens in game and MIGHT read a bunch of patch notes now and then. But that is about it. They don’t really care about what the devs say or doesn’t say as long as they can play the game.

lordkrall.7241:

You are assuming that casual players are even aware of the silence though. The vast majority of players never visits the forums, nor do they check on Reddit and such. They see what happens in game and MIGHT read a bunch of patch notes now and then. But that is about it. They don’t really care about what the devs say or doesn’t say as long as they can play the game.

the silence is deafening.
Casual people in fact get info
For example, even my sister and niece know that there is a star wars movie planned, they may not care, but they know.

casuals who play WoW are aware that they had an expansion in the works months ago.

casuals may not know about the latest patch notes, but they know that nothing noteworthy is going on with GW2.
They just arent going to say anything about it. They will just lose interest. They come back, look to see whats new, and leave.

hardcore leave because they want more.
casual leave because nothing new and exciting going on to make em excited for a bit

Hey there’s also the possibility Colin woke up one day, saw box-sales not going anywhere and gems are neglectable and decided to close shop. “John / Gaile, you two stall time while we put a few nails in the coffin, tell them we can’t say sh— even though we’d love to, should be enough. Art, you guys put some new minis, hell anything you want, don’t care. Programmers – you’re all fired. Lore, you guys, … lore? oh I forgot. So guys its been a good run but I have a private jet to take me to my yacht, see were sailing to the Bahamas where I’ma swing it again lol, so turn the lights off, and keep some servers up so they wont feel anything ADIOS SUCKERS!!!”

… did I go too far? o_o

Gaile Gray.6029:

Yes, that’s definitely true. As Mike O’Brien said in a recent post, “We’ve set a clear policy in the past year: we don’t talk speculatively about future development. We don’t want to string you along. Creating fun is an uncertain business: sometimes things work out and sometimes they don’t; sometimes we go back to the drawing board over and over before we get something right. If we make optimistic promises and then can’t deliver on them, everyone suffers. So when we attend a trade show or give an interview, we’re there to talk about what we’re getting ready to ship, not to speculate on what we might ship someday.”

We truly understand the interest that our loyal players have in knowing more, but we’re not able to share too much at this juncture for the reasons that are stated above and outlined in more detail in Mike’s post.

I’ll reiterate that we could really use some vision casting for the game. A series of “state of the game” posts. What, when they look at the game, do the executive design staff see? Where do they hope to take it? What are the core values against which every design decision be weighed and tested?

I remember a time when Rift was close to beta testing. I had a feeling it wasn’t going to be all that special. I remember explaining to people how I’d probably give Rift a try, but that I was sure GW2 was going to be so much more of a game.

My reasoning? Trion talked a little bit about their rift events. They made some vague noises about how the game was built so that they could change it frequently and add new content. But mostly, there wasn’t much information about how it was developing and what exactly was going to make it special.

In contrast, ArenaNet people were frequently speaking passionately about their hopes and dreams for GW2. What they wanted it to feel like to play it. What really cool project they were currently working on. I remember the initial reaction to the Sylvari followed by the announcement that they were going to get a redesign because green-skinned elves just wasn’t awesome enough for this game.

I knew GW2 was going somewhere because the people making it spoke boldly, and frequently, about what they wanted to do with the game.

It doesn’t have to include specific time-frames or book-jacket story spoilers. It just needs to be an expression of where the game is going, and that the people at ArenaNet are still passionate about it.

What does the CEO say to the department heads when he gathers them together to point the way forward? What does the design director say when he calls meetings of all the design team leaders? Where is this ship going?

As much as I like the idea of ArenaNet listening to the player base, I’m not sure that’s really the problem. Some of the most controversial decisions do seem like they were motivated by a reaction to what the players were saying, only in a direction no player would have imagined. That’s part of the reason many of us are getting the feeling that we have no idea what to expect.

We have CDI’s for ArenaNet to listen to us in an organized way (though I’m still firmly convinced 30 minutes of reading over the top page of the forums on any given day will give you most of what ends up being expressed in a CDI anyway) but what we really need is ArenaNet speaking back to us in a smeaningful, substantive way.

“Oh, that’s interesting, tell me more” is the bare minimum of conversation. It’s what therapists tell patients to keep things going without actually getting involved. Or husbands say to wives when their attention is really on the television.

wwwes.1398:

No. The difference is in silence, ragers AND casual players leave in equal numbers. It is a fantasy to suggest that with silence you don’t have to worry about people who are angry about the games direction. And a difficult fantasy to maintain, too, since we are in a thread full of that.

Sure you still have to worry, but at the same time you have liberty to work on developing whatever you want and not have to put up with “but you said we’d get this!!”

Silence alone is not the issue. Silence and a long time between updates is.

lordkrall.7241:

Azure.8670:

I love this game but if they dont add more to it, Black Desert can seriously take it down, and me with it

You mean just like how Elder Scrolls Online and Wildstar did?

I bought wild star actually… great game, sadly they did way too many things wrong. Ill never LEAVE GW2, I love it too much, but if something great comes along AND GW2 fails to just well… do something.. then yea

Azure The Heartless.3261:

wwwes.1398:

No. The difference is in silence, ragers AND casual players leave in equal numbers. It is a fantasy to suggest that with silence you don’t have to worry about people who are angry about the games direction. And a difficult fantasy to maintain, too, since we are in a thread full of that.

Sure you still have to worry, but at the same time you have liberty to work on developing whatever you want and not have to put up with “but you said we’d get this!!”

Silence alone is not the issue. Silence and a long time between updates is.

sorry they never really have that liberty, whether they tell us or not, they are still held responsible for what they deliver, or do not deliver. Expectations exist no matter what. By clearly expressing your intentions, you are most likely to get end users and creators aligning in expectations.

Phenn.5167:

I’m glad to hear that the “We’re aware of _ and working on it” seems doable to y’all.

The issue on communication, however, is broader than this. As far as long-term things are concerned (full-on expansions, additions of new classes/weapons, etc.) I think the present approach has been totally understandable. You all are the devs. You’ve got the leeway to withhold preliminary info on new content.

In this realm, the best kind of communication would be a decent breakdown of project priority. Even knowing as little as

“Our dev priority is…
1. Guild Halls
2. WvW class balance
3. Necro Re-work
4. etc.”

would go a long way to balancing expectations in the forums. When everyone hears “We’re aware of and working on _,” without some sort of prioritization associated with it, everyone ends up thinking their pet peeve is the number-one priority.

I would love to see something like this. Nothing specific, but just knowing where dev resources are going would be great for the community. (The nay-sayers will fuss and complain anyway, so K them.) It doesn’t even have to be everything. Though, wouldn’t it be amusing to see this project list:

Development projects:

• New-New Trait System
• Guild Halls
• Condition damage brainstorming, CDI pending
• Something special secret~

The buzz generates itself.

As has already been mentioned in this thread, it would help a lot if this game had something along the lines of a publicly available test server where people could try out and give feedback on new additions.

For example, I also play Neverwinter, and just the other day the launcher had an announcement that they were going to make some class changes. The full announcement on their website went into a bit more detail, invited all and sundry to try out the changes on the test server, included a link to the forum threads specifically set up by devs to contain class change feedback, and claimed that the devs would actually take player feedback into consideration when tweaking the changes. And guess what? Those threads may have a few people going “ZOMG you ruined this class” and “that skill is still OP, y u no nerf it” but for the most part posters are civilized and post reasonable feedback on how they think a class or skill is working.

Or consider Rift – we’ve known for months now that they were planning an expansion that would take us to the plane of water. Early on they just provided vague teasers, then gradually more and more detail. They wound up having to push back its launch date 2 weeks, and plenty of people complained about that, but the whole thing is available on the test server right now for anyone to try out. And like Neverwinter, Rift has a whole section of its forums dedicated to test server feedback where it’s not unusual to see devs respond to players, explain their reasoning for doing things, and even make changes based on their suggestions.

Well, new Profession balance information is coming this Friday, and they are taking feedback on those proposed changes, and will use it to adjust them….so, there’s that. =)

Azure The Heartless.3261:

wwwes.1398:

No. The difference is in silence, ragers AND casual players leave in equal numbers. It is a fantasy to suggest that with silence you don’t have to worry about people who are angry about the games direction. And a difficult fantasy to maintain, too, since we are in a thread full of that.

Sure you still have to worry, but at the same time you have liberty to work on developing whatever you want and not have to put up with “but you said we’d get this!!”

Silence alone is not the issue. Silence and a long time between updates is.

What you get in that instance is vastly more people being upset because a feature is thrown in that they didn’t really want while no attention is paid to something considered more important..

That is what created this latest controversy in the first place.