Guild Wars 2

I’m opposed to this, if only because, any tool given to accomadate min/maxers, promotes min/maxing, and creates more min/maxers. The only way to keep elitism at bay is to not give it a rock to stand on.

Since when elitist equals to theorycrafter or min/maxer? I think you’re confusing what means elitist.

Dual.8953:

I’m opposed to this, if only because, any tool given to accomadate min/maxers, promotes min/maxing, and creates more min/maxers. The only way to keep elitism at bay is to not give it a rock to stand on.

Min/Maxers are usually players that have experience in the game, are not here just to enjoy it but want to take it to the limit

Elitists are (mostly, in the least pathetic form) kids that have nothing more important in life than play video games, their delusion makes them think everyone is on the same page and call “bad” people who can’t dedicate the same amount of time (or that doesn’t give that much importance to a video game).

Everyone is cool with Min/Maxers since they are most of the times people who give advises or create guides for others.

Everyone hates elitists and their single line troll comments on the forums.

(PS. most elitists are min maxers, not all min maxers are elitists).

Mesket.5728:

Dual.8953:

I’m opposed to this, if only because, any tool given to accomadate min/maxers, promotes min/maxing, and creates more min/maxers. The only way to keep elitism at bay is to not give it a rock to stand on.

Min/Maxers are usually players that have experience in the game, are not here just to enjoy it but want to take it to the limit

Elitists are (mostly, in the least pathetic form) kids that have nothing more important in life than play video games, their delusion makes them think everyone is on the same page and call “bad” people who can’t dedicate the same amount of time (or that doesn’t give that much importance to a video game).

Everyone is cool with Min/Maxers since they are most of the times people who give advises or create guides for others.

Everyone hates elitists and their single line troll comments on the forums.

(PS. most elitists are min maxers, not all min maxers are elitists).

Min/maxers themselves maybe fine, but if they share the fruits of thier labours enmasse, the elitists get ahold of it and use it to enforce their opinions and egos. The min/maxer who created it may not mean any harm, but neither did the scientists that invented TNT and splid the atom. Once the method is out there, the intentions become moot. Elitist and Min/Maxers both crave “the one build”, and the clearer in image of that build becomes, the easier it is for those with the wrong intentions to abuse it.

moiraine.2753:

Combo field will work the same way if some buff is cast only on one character.So the one who has the buff or the combo field his dmg will be increased.
Combo field is not a new concept.It is in old MMOs presented too just not as combo field but as a buff cast on single target.
I don’t understand what is confusing here.It’s quite simple.

So you’d basically screw everyone that plays their share of support by not giving them credit for the fields they put down? What about the mesmer with the feedback bubble that happens to do a ton of damage to the enemy but only because he caught them off guard and got them to fire into/through it? This isn’t some lesser trinity-based combat where your dps characters only do dps (and hopefully avoid standing in fire). That’s why a damage meter won’t work. If all you’re doing is damage, you’re doing it wrong.

ArchonWing.9480:

Yes to a personal meter. The combat log is utterly useless.

I really hate to inform you all, but unfortunately there are objective metrics to performance. Whether or not you accept these metrics to be indicative of character ability is another story, but people are theorycrafting “optimal” builds regardless and personally I want to see if the build I’m trying out is more effective than the one I was doing last. Stats are always subjective to interpretation, but to form an analysis of any value, you need actual numbers.

Having the game hide this kind information just because people may get their feelings hurt is silly. Do people not realize many things are situational; and if whatever you’re using is “bad”, then it’s bad? So what if it suggests your build is trash? It probably is. So what? I’m a pretty terrible player, so I don’t hang out with elitists. Cool story really; I do play the way I want, but I don’t want to make any excuses either.

And it does help if we can prove that a build a friend is running is suboptimal to run something else. Better than failing 20-30 times I say.

Also, the next time you bring your non-fotm build/class in and you can prove it can just do just as well as their “favored” builds. Well, wouldn’t that be swell?

As for people being jerks, people always be jerks, and you shouldn’t play with them. The whole thing comes down to the zerker debate. There’s jerks on both ends. I compare rude speedrunners that forum warrior to people who drive fast, constantly tailgate while swapping lanes and think they own the highway, honking at people who get in their way. And then there’s the zerker haters who want to “drive the way they want” but think that going 40 mph in the fast lane and blocking it is perfectly acceptable. (aka the person that feels entitled to join speedruns without gearing for one)

Slower traffic keep to the right. That’s all I’ll say.

this is a good post. So naturally, it was overlooked by the naysayers.

VOLKON,
You clearly have no idea how a combo field works.
So here is a link for you to read how they work – http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combo

I haven’t played a MMO where the one who triggers and the one who casts were always treated equally.
One of them was always more buffed than the other

ArchonWing.9480:

Yes to a personal meter. The combat log is utterly useless.

I really hate to inform you all, but unfortunately there are objective metrics to performance. Whether or not you accept these metrics to be indicative of character ability is another story, but people are theorycrafting “optimal” builds regardless and personally I want to see if the build I’m trying out is more effective than the one I was doing last. Stats are always subjective to interpretation, but to form an analysis of any value, you need actual numbers.

Having the game hide this kind information just because people may get their feelings hurt is silly. Do people not realize many things are situational; and if whatever you’re using is “bad”, then it’s bad? So what if it suggests your build is trash? It probably is. So what? I’m a pretty terrible player, so I don’t hang out with elitists. Cool story really; I do play the way I want, but I don’t want to make any excuses either.

And it does help if we can prove that a build a friend is running is suboptimal to run something else. Better than failing 20-30 times I say.

Also, the next time you bring your non-fotm build/class in and you can prove it can just do just as well as their “favored” builds. Well, wouldn’t that be swell?

As for people being jerks, people always be jerks, and you shouldn’t play with them. The whole thing comes down to the zerker debate. There’s jerks on both ends. I compare rude speedrunners that forum warrior to people who drive fast, constantly tailgate while swapping lanes and think they own the highway, honking at people who get in their way. And then there’s the zerker haters who want to “drive the way they want” but think that going 40 mph in the fast lane and blocking it is perfectly acceptable. (aka the person that feels entitled to join speedruns without gearing for one)

Slower traffic keep to the right. That’s all I’ll say.

So much this.I just couldn’t say it better.

haviz.1340:

Since when elitist equals to theorycrafter or min/maxer? I think you’re confusing what means elitist.

I agree with you.Elitist and Theorycrafter are not the same thing

If you’re talking about having a type of feature similar to GW1 Isle of Nameless where you could go in, with your build, and beat on barrels that represented the various armor ratings to see how much damage you did, or the guy that told you ‘you do x damage per second. death after x seconds’. Sure, I could see that added to the game, tossed into the mists somewhere so you could try out some build variations. I used to enjoy doing that, liked comparing my pve vs pvp outputs as well when I was using skills that were split, so I wouldnt necessarily mind having something in the pve section either. Maybe a training area in your home instance for trying out builds?

On the other hand, if you’re talking like the WoW meters, where you can see how much everyone in the party is doing (which it doesn’t sound like you are), nope no thank you. We have enough class/armor/weapon discrimination already. They don’t need more tools to make it that much easier.

moiraine.2753:

VOLKON,
You clearly have no idea how a combo field works.
So here is a link for you to read how they work – http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combo

I haven’t played a MMO where the one who triggers and the one who casts were always treated equally.
One of them was always more buffed than the other

You’re babbling on now with no idea what you’re babbling about. I notice you’ve avoided completely things like Feedback and Confusion which require enemy actions to cause damage. I’m not sure what you’re going on about regarding combo fields. They’re not buffs. A ranger firing through a fire field doesn’t find he’s been buffed, he instead finds his shots doing fire damage as well. Now, there are other situations where you do stack might, for example, on a group. Those examples would be character buffs, but it’s pretty clear that’s not what I’m talking about.

There’s far more going on than a simple “I buffed you” scenario.

Downfall.2671:

Charak.9761:

I want it so rangers know how garbage they are in dungeons and we can stop the arguement about why we don’t like them in dungeons.

Exactly this is the reason why i’m absolutely against dmg meters. People will start to believe that damage is the only thing that matters in this game and we will have even more of those 1337 zerkers that watch the fight while laying in the dust. finish the run before I get through the first trash pull.

Bad zerkers will definitely fall fast. But a good zerker will often output enough damage to make up for this or not even die at all. They can dodge and greatly reduce the incoming damage done to them.

On the other hand, someone in Soldier gear, regardless of skill will do much less damage even if they get higher uptime and are able to “facetank”.

The thing is support is dependent on your traits and skill selection, not gear besides boon duration and healing power. And unfortunately, healing power scales poorly compared with other stats.

That being said, it’s reasonable to say that a subpar player in nonzerker gear is better off than in berserkers and that you can’t expect ideal situations from random people or your casual friends. It really depends on what they’re doing with their higher survivability. My personal opinion is that people should gear for the highest dps possible that doesn’t land them on the floor. And honestly, if they can’t do it in zerker, well they shouldn’t. But I doubt this threshold is at PTV gear either. From what I’ve read of the class forums that I play, a lot of people aren’t aware of the potential their profession has. In fact one of the best advice I recieved was that Altruistic Healing for Guardians wasn’t mandatory. That advice wasn’t good because it was stressing “omg moar dps”, but because it opened a lot more flexibility in builds and suddenly there are more options then if you lock yourself into thinking certain things are required.

This is of course assuming you’re partying with randoms. If not, then realize that grinding for virtual currency is also a time waster anyways, and it doesn’t matter. But in the end this tool would help quite a few people. Regardless of what you’re doing, there’s often a “sweet spot” that can be more closely measured. As for the people that would abuse it currently; honestly, they already are doing this. People have been chasing the “best” play ever since the beginning of video games, after all.

In the end, I feel it’s not reasonable to expect anything from randoms who have a wide variety of skill levels. Certainly, I don’t want any griefing or AFK’ers or people who don’t communicate, but if we’re going for efficiency, then you will need to find people you know and trust. Doing otherwise is like running to the corner of the street and expecting the next person you see will be able to stack and dps. For anyone that prizes efficiency and then goes out to find a bunch of subpar randoms while proceeding to rage at and abuse them, I think that’s honestly a very bizzare gap in logic and they themselves might be subpar in some aspects too.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

If you’re talking about having a type of feature similar to GW1 Isle of Nameless where you could go in, with your build, and beat on barrels that represented the various armor ratings to see how much damage you did, or the guy that told you ‘you do x damage per second. death after x seconds’. Sure, I could see that added to the game, tossed into the mists somewhere so you could try out some build variations. I used to enjoy doing that, liked comparing my pve vs pvp outputs as well when I was using skills that were split, so I wouldnt necessarily mind having something in the pve section either. Maybe a training area in your home instance for trying out builds?

On the other hand, if you’re talking like the WoW meters, where you can see how much everyone in the party is doing (which it doesn’t sound like you are), nope no thank you. We have enough class/armor/weapon discrimination already. They don’t need more tools to make it that much easier.

No not like WoW’s recount.
I want similar tool to what GW1 had.

There was a damage counter in GW1 and I missed that. I spent a ton of time attacking it tweaking damage vs tank styles of play.

I feel the need to restate my concern about a damage meter, in relation to the arguement: “elitists already exist”. My concern is the ratio of elitist to casuals. Lets say the game community is 90% casual, 10% elitist. Many casuals don’t know what is truely optimal in the game, and since it’s difficult to prove what is optimal definitively, they consign them themselves to the fact that it doesn’t matter in the long run. However, it is in our basic human nature to persue what we believe is the “best”, which is why min/maxers and elitists exist. With a damage meter, we could have a better view of the best dps setup in the game, but this knowledge could promote a desire for casual layman to persue this “best”. This mentality converts what currently would be a casual player, into an elitist, demanding only the best.
This shift in the general mentality of the could very well have toxic effects on the community. The ratio of casual to elitist could very well flip, to elitists outnumbering the casuals. The toxic mentality of the growing elitist population would likely make this game very unfriendly to casuals, anti-meta and newbie players, as the elitist masses would disallow them from joining their groups, and since they’d be the majority, it would be difficult for non-elitist to find parties.
This may seem like a dismal view of humanity, but from what of mmo communities, and western society in general, I don’t think my concerns are unfounded.

+1
To a damage taking dummy that displays DPS
-1
To anything remotely close to WoW

Be sure to make it clear in your posts exactly what type of model you’re promoting

Dual.8953:

I feel the need to restate my concern about a damage meter, in relation to the arguement: “elitists already exist”. My concern is the ratio of elitist to casuals. Lets say the game community is 90% casual, 10% elitist. Many casuals don’t know what is truely optimal in the game, and since it’s difficult to prove what is optimal definitively, they consign them themselves to the fact that it doesn’t matter in the long run. However, it is in our basic human nature to persue what we believe is the “best”, which is why min/maxers and elitists exist. With a damage meter, we could have a better view of the best dps setup in the game, but this knowledge could promote a desire for casual layman to persue this “best”. This mentality converts what currently would be a casual player, into an elitist, demanding only the best.

I don’t get it. Trying to improve or seek something better doesn’t mean someone’s not casual.

This relies on a faulty assumption that casuals would like to remain ignorant, and elitists are going to use these statistics to min-max everything. But this just represents a false dichotomy. A lot of people wouldn’t say no to something that allows them to get what they want. At the same time, a lot of so-called “elitists” meaning the type that actively excludes and kicks people often don’t care about reasoning and numbers but rather just conforms to the fotm mentality that something is objectively the best without figuring out why… in reality they already made up their minds already.

My point is these so-called min-maxers are also the ones that frequently edit wiki pages so that people such as myself that are too lazy to figure it out on my own can know too. This is just really the same thing. What you view as toxic elitists is not the same as the people that actively explore the mechanics of the game, and it’s honestly quite insulting to them.

ArchonWing.9480:

Dual.8953:

I feel the need to restate my concern about a damage meter, in relation to the arguement: “elitists already exist”. My concern is the ratio of elitist to casuals. Lets say the game community is 90% casual, 10% elitist. Many casuals don’t know what is truely optimal in the game, and since it’s difficult to prove what is optimal definitively, they consign them themselves to the fact that it doesn’t matter in the long run. However, it is in our basic human nature to persue what we believe is the “best”, which is why min/maxers and elitists exist. With a damage meter, we could have a better view of the best dps setup in the game, but this knowledge could promote a desire for casual layman to persue this “best”. This mentality converts what currently would be a casual player, into an elitist, demanding only the best.

I don’t get it. Trying to improve or seek something better doesn’t mean someone’s not casual.

This relies on a faulty assumption that casuals would like to remain ignorant, and elitists are going to use these statistics to min-max everything. But this just represents a false dichotomy. A lot of people wouldn’t say no to something that allows them to get what they want. At the same time, a lot of so-called “elitists” meaning the type that actively excludes and kicks people often don’t care about reasoning and numbers but rather just conforms to the fotm mentality that something is objectively the best without figuring out why… in reality they already made up their minds already.

My point is these so-called min-maxers are also the ones that frequently edit wiki pages so that people such as myself that are too lazy to figure it out on my own can know too. This is just really the same thing. What you view as toxic elitists is not the same as the people that actively explore the mechanics of the game, and it’s honestly quite insulting to them.

My problem isn’t the min/maxer who do legwork or want to improve themselves.
My problem is the players who disallow other players from joining parties.
I want players to be allowed to run what they like without being forced to conform to one specific build.
My concern is with a damage meter, players will find the highest dps build, and it will invalidate any build other then it in the eyes of the masses. All who don’t play that build will not be allowed into most parties; which I might add would halt experimentation.
I want players to be free to play as they choose, not be forced to run fotm. I realize this already happens to some degree, and I don’t want this attitude to permeate the entire player base.

Dual.8953:

ArchonWing.9480:

Dual.8953:

I feel the need to restate my concern about a damage meter, in relation to the arguement: “elitists already exist”. My concern is the ratio of elitist to casuals. Lets say the game community is 90% casual, 10% elitist. Many casuals don’t know what is truely optimal in the game, and since it’s difficult to prove what is optimal definitively, they consign them themselves to the fact that it doesn’t matter in the long run. However, it is in our basic human nature to persue what we believe is the “best”, which is why min/maxers and elitists exist. With a damage meter, we could have a better view of the best dps setup in the game, but this knowledge could promote a desire for casual layman to persue this “best”. This mentality converts what currently would be a casual player, into an elitist, demanding only the best.

I don’t get it. Trying to improve or seek something better doesn’t mean someone’s not casual.

This relies on a faulty assumption that casuals would like to remain ignorant, and elitists are going to use these statistics to min-max everything. But this just represents a false dichotomy. A lot of people wouldn’t say no to something that allows them to get what they want. At the same time, a lot of so-called “elitists” meaning the type that actively excludes and kicks people often don’t care about reasoning and numbers but rather just conforms to the fotm mentality that something is objectively the best without figuring out why… in reality they already made up their minds already.

My point is these so-called min-maxers are also the ones that frequently edit wiki pages so that people such as myself that are too lazy to figure it out on my own can know too. This is just really the same thing. What you view as toxic elitists is not the same as the people that actively explore the mechanics of the game, and it’s honestly quite insulting to them.

My problem isn’t the min/maxer who do legwork or want to improve themselves.
My problem is the players who disallow other players from joining parties.
I want players to be allowed to run what they like without being forced to conform to one specific build.
My concern is with a damage meter, players will find the highest dps build, and it will invalidate any build other then it in the eyes of the masses. All who don’t play that build will not be allowed into most parties; which I might add would halt experimentation.
I want players to be free to play as they choose, not be forced to run fotm. I realize this already happens to some degree, and I don’t want this attitude to permeate the entire player base.

I don’t believe in designing game features based around the concern some people that might be terrible.

If someone is willing to be rude to someone that did them no wrong, then with or without a dps meter, I would want nothing to do with them. In fact, I would honestly think that helps weed out such folk. Any kind of information or discovery leads to this, not just a dps meter.

Frankly, I place more priority into honing my own style of play over other people kicking me over it. I’ll always have friends to play with anyways.And if that leaves me with less people to play, then they weren’t worth playing with.

it should be available and it should be an option. something only u can see. or show it at the end of dungeons or something. idk. either that or improve the combat log and have there be some kind of way to have it write to a file and show more detailed information like heals and condition dmg ticks.

Dual.8953:

My concern is the ratio of elitist to casuals. Lets say the game community is 90% casual, 10% elitist.

You are either a casual or elitist? There’s nothing else beside that?

haviz.1340:

Dual.8953:

My concern is the ratio of elitist to casuals. Lets say the game community is 90% casual, 10% elitist.

You are either a casual or elitist? There’s nothing else beside that?

I think casual/elitist in this sense can be better explained as either being the type of player that would take negative action (kicking from dungeon, making negative comments, etc.) on another player based on their choice of build, play style, or gear (within reason) or being the type of player that will not, for whatever reason.

haviz.1340:

Dual.8953:

My concern is the ratio of elitist to casuals. Lets say the game community is 90% casual, 10% elitist.

You are either a casual or elitist? There’s nothing else beside that?

I’m a casual.

Serelisk.6573:

I think casual/elitist in this sense can be better explained as either being the type of player that would take negative action (kicking from dungeon, making negative comments, etc.) on another player based on their choice of build, play style, or gear (within reason) or being the type of player that will not, for whatever reason.

So what if I don’t kick people solely because of their build, play style or gear but I do kick them if they play badly? Besides, what you have just said, makes absolutely no sense regarding their unofficial definitions.

Tobbygnome.6793:

+1
To a damage taking dummy that displays DPS
-1
To anything remotely close to WoW

Be sure to make it clear in your posts exactly what type of model you’re promoting

I’m talking for personal meter specifically.It’s not someone else job to see what people are contributing to the group.
The dps Meter is only for personal use for improving your build,seeing what spell with how much is increasing your dps or healing .I want to be able to test different things on the dummies in the Mysts.

I vote + one to personal dps meters,

Dual.8953:

ArchonWing.9480:

Dual.8953:

I feel the need to restate my concern about a damage meter, in relation to the arguement: “elitists already exist”. My concern is the ratio of elitist to casuals. Lets say the game community is 90% casual, 10% elitist. Many casuals don’t know what is truely optimal in the game, and since it’s difficult to prove what is optimal definitively, they consign them themselves to the fact that it doesn’t matter in the long run. However, it is in our basic human nature to persue what we believe is the “best”, which is why min/maxers and elitists exist. With a damage meter, we could have a better view of the best dps setup in the game, but this knowledge could promote a desire for casual layman to persue this “best”. This mentality converts what currently would be a casual player, into an elitist, demanding only the best.

I don’t get it. Trying to improve or seek something better doesn’t mean someone’s not casual.

This relies on a faulty assumption that casuals would like to remain ignorant, and elitists are going to use these statistics to min-max everything. But this just represents a false dichotomy. A lot of people wouldn’t say no to something that allows them to get what they want. At the same time, a lot of so-called “elitists” meaning the type that actively excludes and kicks people often don’t care about reasoning and numbers but rather just conforms to the fotm mentality that something is objectively the best without figuring out why… in reality they already made up their minds already.

My point is these so-called min-maxers are also the ones that frequently edit wiki pages so that people such as myself that are too lazy to figure it out on my own can know too. This is just really the same thing. What you view as toxic elitists is not the same as the people that actively explore the mechanics of the game, and it’s honestly quite insulting to them.

My problem isn’t the min/maxer who do legwork or want to improve themselves.
My problem is the players who disallow other players from joining parties.
I want players to be allowed to run what they like without being forced to conform to one specific build.
My concern is with a damage meter, players will find the highest dps build, and it will invalidate any build other then it in the eyes of the masses. All who don’t play that build will not be allowed into most parties; which I might add would halt experimentation.
I want players to be free to play as they choose, not be forced to run fotm. I realize this already happens to some degree, and I don’t want this attitude to permeate the entire player base.

But you wouldn’t want to run with those type of players anyway, would you?
The people who want highest dps pugs will ask you to ping gear or even tell them your build. They don’t need a damage meter.

Wukunlin.8461:

But you wouldn’t want to run with those type of players anyway, would you?
The people who want highest dps pugs will ask you to ping gear or even tell them your build. They don’t need a damage meter.

Very true. They are going to gear check / build check you before they even accept the self-invite to the group. Unless you slide in using the lfg, at which point they’ll just boot you if you don’t comply. Its extremely easy to spot these types of players, and I avoid them like the plague (that I feel they are). I’d rather play with a terrible player (ie lacking in skill) that is a fun person and fail repeatedly (you’d be amazed at how hilarious this can sometimes be), than one of those people any day of the week.

Wukunlin.8461:

Dual.8953:

ArchonWing.9480:

Dual.8953:

I feel the need to restate my concern about a damage meter, in relation to the arguement: “elitists already exist”. My concern is the ratio of elitist to casuals. Lets say the game community is 90% casual, 10% elitist. Many casuals don’t know what is truely optimal in the game, and since it’s difficult to prove what is optimal definitively, they consign them themselves to the fact that it doesn’t matter in the long run. However, it is in our basic human nature to persue what we believe is the “best”, which is why min/maxers and elitists exist. With a damage meter, we could have a better view of the best dps setup in the game, but this knowledge could promote a desire for casual layman to persue this “best”. This mentality converts what currently would be a casual player, into an elitist, demanding only the best.

I don’t get it. Trying to improve or seek something better doesn’t mean someone’s not casual.

This relies on a faulty assumption that casuals would like to remain ignorant, and elitists are going to use these statistics to min-max everything. But this just represents a false dichotomy. A lot of people wouldn’t say no to something that allows them to get what they want. At the same time, a lot of so-called “elitists” meaning the type that actively excludes and kicks people often don’t care about reasoning and numbers but rather just conforms to the fotm mentality that something is objectively the best without figuring out why… in reality they already made up their minds already.

My point is these so-called min-maxers are also the ones that frequently edit wiki pages so that people such as myself that are too lazy to figure it out on my own can know too. This is just really the same thing. What you view as toxic elitists is not the same as the people that actively explore the mechanics of the game, and it’s honestly quite insulting to them.

My problem isn’t the min/maxer who do legwork or want to improve themselves.
My problem is the players who disallow other players from joining parties.
I want players to be allowed to run what they like without being forced to conform to one specific build.
My concern is with a damage meter, players will find the highest dps build, and it will invalidate any build other then it in the eyes of the masses. All who don’t play that build will not be allowed into most parties; which I might add would halt experimentation.
I want players to be free to play as they choose, not be forced to run fotm. I realize this already happens to some degree, and I don’t want this attitude to permeate the entire player base.

But you wouldn’t want to run with those type of players anyway, would you?
The people who want highest dps pugs will ask you to ping gear or even tell them your build. They don’t need a damage meter.

I wouldn’t run with them, I just don’t want the chances of running into such a group to be any greater then it is now. I prefer them being a minority so most people don’t have to run into them on a regular basis, to not have to spend hours looking for a party, just because they aren’t running certain build.

Dual.8953:

Wukunlin.8461:

Dual.8953:

ArchonWing.9480:

Dual.8953:

I feel the need to restate my concern about a damage meter, in relation to the arguement: “elitists already exist”. My concern is the ratio of elitist to casuals. Lets say the game community is 90% casual, 10% elitist. Many casuals don’t know what is truely optimal in the game, and since it’s difficult to prove what is optimal definitively, they consign them themselves to the fact that it doesn’t matter in the long run. However, it is in our basic human nature to persue what we believe is the “best”, which is why min/maxers and elitists exist. With a damage meter, we could have a better view of the best dps setup in the game, but this knowledge could promote a desire for casual layman to persue this “best”. This mentality converts what currently would be a casual player, into an elitist, demanding only the best.

I don’t get it. Trying to improve or seek something better doesn’t mean someone’s not casual.

This relies on a faulty assumption that casuals would like to remain ignorant, and elitists are going to use these statistics to min-max everything. But this just represents a false dichotomy. A lot of people wouldn’t say no to something that allows them to get what they want. At the same time, a lot of so-called “elitists” meaning the type that actively excludes and kicks people often don’t care about reasoning and numbers but rather just conforms to the fotm mentality that something is objectively the best without figuring out why… in reality they already made up their minds already.

My point is these so-called min-maxers are also the ones that frequently edit wiki pages so that people such as myself that are too lazy to figure it out on my own can know too. This is just really the same thing. What you view as toxic elitists is not the same as the people that actively explore the mechanics of the game, and it’s honestly quite insulting to them.

My problem isn’t the min/maxer who do legwork or want to improve themselves.
My problem is the players who disallow other players from joining parties.
I want players to be allowed to run what they like without being forced to conform to one specific build.
My concern is with a damage meter, players will find the highest dps build, and it will invalidate any build other then it in the eyes of the masses. All who don’t play that build will not be allowed into most parties; which I might add would halt experimentation.
I want players to be free to play as they choose, not be forced to run fotm. I realize this already happens to some degree, and I don’t want this attitude to permeate the entire player base.

But you wouldn’t want to run with those type of players anyway, would you?
The people who want highest dps pugs will ask you to ping gear or even tell them your build. They don’t need a damage meter.

I wouldn’t run with them, I just don’t want the chances of running into such a group to be any greater then it is now. I prefer them being a minority so most people don’t have to run into them on a regular basis, to not have to spend hours looking for a party, just because they aren’t running certain build.

why would damage meter create more of these players? would a PVT hammer tank warrior suddenly change to a axe/sword berserker warrior when a damage meter is implemented?

The evidence of zerker superiority is out there already, so a DPS meter wouldn’t make bads change their build anyway.

Personal DPS meter I don’t think is a problem, a group DPS meter is something I would like but understand that bads don’t like being shown for what they truly are so it would never be implemented.

Wukunlin.8461:

Dual.8953:

Wukunlin.8461:

Dual.8953:

ArchonWing.9480:

Dual.8953:

I feel the need to restate my concern about a damage meter, in relation to the arguement: “elitists already exist”. My concern is the ratio of elitist to casuals. Lets say the game community is 90% casual, 10% elitist. Many casuals don’t know what is truely optimal in the game, and since it’s difficult to prove what is optimal definitively, they consign them themselves to the fact that it doesn’t matter in the long run. However, it is in our basic human nature to persue what we believe is the “best”, which is why min/maxers and elitists exist. With a damage meter, we could have a better view of the best dps setup in the game, but this knowledge could promote a desire for casual layman to persue this “best”. This mentality converts what currently would be a casual player, into an elitist, demanding only the best.

I don’t get it. Trying to improve or seek something better doesn’t mean someone’s not casual.

This relies on a faulty assumption that casuals would like to remain ignorant, and elitists are going to use these statistics to min-max everything. But this just represents a false dichotomy. A lot of people wouldn’t say no to something that allows them to get what they want. At the same time, a lot of so-called “elitists” meaning the type that actively excludes and kicks people often don’t care about reasoning and numbers but rather just conforms to the fotm mentality that something is objectively the best without figuring out why… in reality they already made up their minds already.

My point is these so-called min-maxers are also the ones that frequently edit wiki pages so that people such as myself that are too lazy to figure it out on my own can know too. This is just really the same thing. What you view as toxic elitists is not the same as the people that actively explore the mechanics of the game, and it’s honestly quite insulting to them.

My problem isn’t the min/maxer who do legwork or want to improve themselves.
My problem is the players who disallow other players from joining parties.
I want players to be allowed to run what they like without being forced to conform to one specific build.
My concern is with a damage meter, players will find the highest dps build, and it will invalidate any build other then it in the eyes of the masses. All who don’t play that build will not be allowed into most parties; which I might add would halt experimentation.
I want players to be free to play as they choose, not be forced to run fotm. I realize this already happens to some degree, and I don’t want this attitude to permeate the entire player base.

But you wouldn’t want to run with those type of players anyway, would you?
The people who want highest dps pugs will ask you to ping gear or even tell them your build. They don’t need a damage meter.

I wouldn’t run with them, I just don’t want the chances of running into such a group to be any greater then it is now. I prefer them being a minority so most people don’t have to run into them on a regular basis, to not have to spend hours looking for a party, just because they aren’t running certain build.

why would damage meter create more of these players? would a PVT hammer tank warrior suddenly change to a axe/sword berserker warrior when a damage meter is implemented?

I don’t think it will make more of them.They are already in the game.Have people forgotton what was CoF P1 before the gold nurf?The elitists and bads are already in the game.I don’t think they will increase just from one personal dmg meter.
Even now a party leader can ask you to link gear and if he doesn’t like it he can kick you.

Conner.4702:

moiraine.2753:

Conner.4702:

You don’t give the toxic elements tools to be even more toxic with.

You want to test builds? Grab pen and paper and do the math manually.

Sorry but i don’t live in the 90’s anymore.When there are better options available it’s a common sense to use them

Oh you mean you are lazy, got it.

I’m neither lazy neither theorycrafter.Pen and paper will be good for someone who is working with Mathematics.

I’m against this because I don’t want to see play-how-you-want BHB trash rant and qq even more on the forums.