Guild Wars 2

This game is fun, leveling is fun, farming crafting materials is fun, dungeons are fun and different, the world is exciting spvp and wvw are awesome. However the game depends greatly on numbers so if no one is online the game quickly becomes unfun. Also compared to MMO’s like WoW the community is extremely young in this game. The dungeons in this game are not hard they are not difficult and they do not take a long time to do. But Arah which is arguably the “hardest” dungeon no one ever wants to do because it’s to hard it takes longer than 30 minutes wahhh… That ruins the game for me. Dungeons should have different rewards from crafting and other dungeons to give more incentive to do them. Which I think is a big mistake that they don’t.

RochelleFreeman.5603:

Also compared to MMO’s like WoW the community is extremely young in this game.

Really?
The vast majority of players have have met in-game have been 25+, whilst in WoW the most common age seems to be something like 15-20.

Vayne.8563:

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Vayne.8563:

And when the argument goes against you,

What arguments? You trade in opinions, not arguments.

You say this all the time. It’s only true if you refuse to read the stuff I actually write.

You talk about things like balance or depth of game play and how much better it is was in Guild Wars 1.

I’ve replied to this sort of thing several times in several different threads. Talking about how in Guild Wars 1 there were plenty of balance issues as well. I’ve brought up stuff like the perma-sin nerf, the ursan nerf, etc. I’ve brought up in various threads how ritualists were so OP, it completely killed PVe for just about anything but a couple of high end instances. I’ve talked about how necromancers may have had a ton of elite skills, but you pretty much used three of them. I’d say just about every necro in the game was either using discord, aura of the lich, or blood is power if they were farming with a team in UW.

Yes, I’ve given data to back up my opinions. Guild Wars 1, balance wise, isn’t exactly a bastion of virtue. It had it’s flaws, some of them serious. And a lot of people left Guild Wars 1 because of balance issues.

The game was too hard to balance, because of the depth. And it got worse as the game went on, because more skills were added.

So Anet goes with a system that’s easier to balance and has less skills. We don’t know if more skills will be added over time or not, but if they are, it still should be easier to balance, particularly with skills being tied to weapons.

The problem is, when you guys attack me personally because you don’t like my opinion. I’m not ENCOURAGED to have a conversation with you.

I’ll let others decide whether or not I’m just a man of opinions or if I have facts to back them up. I know I have a few detractors on these forums, but as many detractors as I have, I’ve gotten personal messages from far more people who like what I have to say.

I think the point hes making here is not that you shouldnt have an opinion. I think he is saying that simply dismissing everything as opinion is worthless in terms of actual problem solving. Hes saying dont just say nothing matters because everyone has an opinion.

Say i have this opinion based on these factors, heres where i think something is strong, and heres where i think something is lacking. The point is to have a discussion that may give deeper understanding or bear fruit. The topic is do you find the game fun. Of course its going to be an opinion, but theoretically by discussing why yes, and why no, someone seeking solutions maybe able to glean useful information on why people are happy, or not happy, and better allot their resources towards making the game over all, better.

Of course nothing may come of it, but eh point of a forum is discussion, why not try.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Vayne.8563:

And when the argument goes against you,

What arguments? You trade in opinions, not arguments.

You say this all the time. It’s only true if you refuse to read the stuff I actually write.

You talk about things like balance or depth of game play and how much better it is was in Guild Wars 1.

I’ve replied to this sort of thing several times in several different threads. Talking about how in Guild Wars 1 there were plenty of balance issues as well. I’ve brought up stuff like the perma-sin nerf, the ursan nerf, etc. I’ve brought up in various threads how ritualists were so OP, it completely killed PVe for just about anything but a couple of high end instances. I’ve talked about how necromancers may have had a ton of elite skills, but you pretty much used three of them. I’d say just about every necro in the game was either using discord, aura of the lich, or blood is power if they were farming with a team in UW.

Yes, I’ve given data to back up my opinions. Guild Wars 1, balance wise, isn’t exactly a bastion of virtue. It had it’s flaws, some of them serious. And a lot of people left Guild Wars 1 because of balance issues.

The game was too hard to balance, because of the depth. And it got worse as the game went on, because more skills were added.

So Anet goes with a system that’s easier to balance and has less skills. We don’t know if more skills will be added over time or not, but if they are, it still should be easier to balance, particularly with skills being tied to weapons.

The problem is, when you guys attack me personally because you don’t like my opinion. I’m not ENCOURAGED to have a conversation with you.

I’ll let others decide whether or not I’m just a man of opinions or if I have facts to back them up. I know I have a few detractors on these forums, but as many detractors as I have, I’ve gotten personal messages from far more people who like what I have to say.

I think the point hes making here is not that you shouldnt have an opinion. I think he is saying that simply dismissing everything as opinion is worthless in terms of actual problem solving. Hes saying dont just say nothing matters because everyone has an opinion.

Say i have this opinion based on these factors, heres where i think something is strong, and heres where i think something is lacking. The point is to have a discussion that may give deeper understanding or bear fruit. The topic is do you find the game fun. Of course its going to be an opinion, but theoretically by discussing why yes, and why no, someone seeking solutions maybe able to glean useful information on why people are happy, or not happy, and better allot their resources towards making the game over all, better.

Of course nothing may come of it, but eh point of a forum is discussion, why not try.

As I’ve said in my examples above, I do go reasons for my opinions. Or I have done in a number of threads, until a couple of people decided to get personal. At that point, I have less desire to share reasons or opinions with those people. I think this is entirely reasonable.

I’ll happily give reasons for my opinions to you, should a post required it. But I don’t feel the need to abide rudeness.

Vayne.8563:

I’ve replied to this sort of thing several times in several different threads.

Hi. You’re talking to me. I have no idea what you’ve done “several times in several different threads.” My perception of your posts is based on your interaction with me. Review our posting interaction. You tend to post opinions and discredit my posts about facts or figures as opinion. That’s trading in opinion. It’s pointless.

The problem is, when you guys attack me personally because you don’t like my opinion. I’m not ENCOURAGED to have a conversation with you.

Where have I personally attacked you? Is this like you claiming I think gear progression is “the devil incarnate”? Provide evidence or retract your slander.

I’ll let others decide whether or not I’m just a man of opinions or if I have facts to back them up. I know I have a few detractors on these forums, but as many detractors as I have, I’ve gotten personal messages from far more people who like what I have to say.

Yes, and some of my posts refuting yours have received a lot of “likes.” Does that ultimately mean anything? No.

Unlike you, I’m not interested in (unverifiable) popularity contests.

Your posts have become tainted with martyr syndrome. Unless you post something substantive, you’re welcome to the last word.

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Vayne.8563:

I’ve replied to this sort of thing several times in several different threads.

Hi. You’re talking to me. I have no idea what you’ve done “several times in several different threads.” My perception of your posts is based on your interaction with me. Review our posting interaction. You tend to post opinions and discredit my posts about facts or figures as opinion. That’s trading in opinion. It’s pointless.

The problem is, when you guys attack me personally because you don’t like my opinion. I’m not ENCOURAGED to have a conversation with you.

Where have I personally attacked you? Is this like you claiming I think gear progression “is of the devil”? Provide evidence or retract your slander.

I’ll let others decide whether or not I’m just a man of opinions or if I have facts to back them up. I know I have a few detractors on these forums, but as many detractors as I have, I’ve gotten personal messages from far more people who like what I have to say.

Yes, and some of my posts refuting yours have received a lot of “likes.” Does that ultimately mean anything? No.

Unlike you, I’m not interested in (unverifiable) popularity contests.

Your posts have become tainted with martyr syndrome. Unless you post something substantive, you’re welcome to the last word.

If you don’t like my posts, feel free not to respond. It’s pretty much that simple. I don’t have a problem with it.

phys.7689:

I think the point hes making here is not that you shouldnt have an opinion. I think he is saying that simply dismissing everything as opinion is worthless in terms of actual problem solving. Hes saying dont just say nothing matters because everyone has an opinion.

Say i have this opinion based on these factors, heres where i think something is strong, and heres where i think something is lacking. The point is to have a discussion that may give deeper understanding or bear fruit. The topic is do you find the game fun. Of course its going to be an opinion, but theoretically by discussing why yes, and why no, someone seeking solutions maybe able to glean useful information on why people are happy, or not happy, and better allot their resources towards making the game over all, better.

Of course nothing may come of it, but eh point of a forum is discussion, why not try.

Exactly. When I talk about something like, I think the game lacks depth because of XYZ, it would be more prudent to discuss XYZ rather than dismiss the idea that the game lacks depth because you don’t think so.

That is the whole point and why we keep running in to these issues.

If we have an opinion about the game, one should state why they have that opinion. Then instead of attacking that opinion with another, you should argue the reasons behind the first person’s opinion. That is how good conversation and arguments happen.

clay.7849:

phys.7689:

I think the point hes making here is not that you shouldnt have an opinion. I think he is saying that simply dismissing everything as opinion is worthless in terms of actual problem solving. Hes saying dont just say nothing matters because everyone has an opinion.

Say i have this opinion based on these factors, heres where i think something is strong, and heres where i think something is lacking. The point is to have a discussion that may give deeper understanding or bear fruit. The topic is do you find the game fun. Of course its going to be an opinion, but theoretically by discussing why yes, and why no, someone seeking solutions maybe able to glean useful information on why people are happy, or not happy, and better allot their resources towards making the game over all, better.

Of course nothing may come of it, but eh point of a forum is discussion, why not try.

Exactly. When I talk about something like, I think the game lacks depth because of XYZ, it would be more prudent to discuss XYZ rather than dismiss the idea that the game lacks depth because you don’t think so.

That is the whole point and why we keep running in to these issues.

If we have an opinion about the game, one should state why they have that opinion. Then instead of attacking that opinion with another, you should argue the reasons behind the first person’s opinion. That is how good conversation and arguments happen.

Except that in many threads I do provide information to back up why I think what I think, and you just dismiss it or ignore it anyway.

In a thread about Anet hiring people instead of laying off people, as possibly showing the health of game, you claim that they could be hiring people even if the game is doing badly. When I talk about the servers being expanded, as per an Anet rep, you deftly sidestep that fact too.

It actually doesn’t really matter if I support my opinion or not in posts to you, because you don’t pay any attention to what I say anyway.

I wouldn’t say GW2 is boring, but neither is it exactly fun.
I play it just because I have nothing better to play.
I log in, stand in LA thinking what I should do, and that’s because I’ve already done everything.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

phys.7689:

I think the point hes making here is not that you shouldnt have an opinion. I think he is saying that simply dismissing everything as opinion is worthless in terms of actual problem solving. Hes saying dont just say nothing matters because everyone has an opinion.

Say i have this opinion based on these factors, heres where i think something is strong, and heres where i think something is lacking. The point is to have a discussion that may give deeper understanding or bear fruit. The topic is do you find the game fun. Of course its going to be an opinion, but theoretically by discussing why yes, and why no, someone seeking solutions maybe able to glean useful information on why people are happy, or not happy, and better allot their resources towards making the game over all, better.

Of course nothing may come of it, but eh point of a forum is discussion, why not try.

Exactly. When I talk about something like, I think the game lacks depth because of XYZ, it would be more prudent to discuss XYZ rather than dismiss the idea that the game lacks depth because you don’t think so.

That is the whole point and why we keep running in to these issues.

If we have an opinion about the game, one should state why they have that opinion. Then instead of attacking that opinion with another, you should argue the reasons behind the first person’s opinion. That is how good conversation and arguments happen.

Except that in many threads I do provide information to back up why I think what I think, and you just dismiss it or ignore it anyway.

In a thread about Anet hiring people instead of laying off people, as possibly showing the health of game, you claim that they could be hiring people even if the game is doing badly. When I talk about the servers being expanded, as per an Anet rep, you deftly sidestep that fact too.

It actually doesn’t really matter if I support my opinion or not in posts to you, because you don’t pay any attention to what I say anyway.

First, your factual evidence is often your opinion based on how you see the way you and your guild play the game. It is anecdotal at best.

Second, someone attacking your claim that ANet hiring people = the game doing well is exactly the kind of thing that should happen. They should simply say that the game isn’t doing well because they think you are wrong, they should say why your claim that is it doing well because ANet is hiring people is wrong.

It is the hiring of people that = success of a game that should be argued. And, it is a pretty easy argument to deny. There are plenty of cases as to why a company that isn’t doing well may still be hiring without even getting in to the discussion of whether those job postings even led to someone being hired rather than just being job postings. It is a fact that a lot of jobs are not being filled in this country even though it appears that companies have those job positions listed as open and available.

http://blogs.hbr.org/cs/2013/03/why_employers_arent_filling_th.html

See that, I also included a link to something relevant to that backs up my claim.

This is how good arguments work. You shouldn’t try to attack the logical statement just for being a statement you don’t like – you should attack the reasons behind why the person thinks that the statement is logical.

I do pay attention to what you say, and sometimes you do make good points. But, you all too often say that someone is wrong simply because you don’t agree, not because there is something wrong with their assumptions.

@vayne – this is no attack at you but all this talk about opinions being valid and whatnot has pretty much been blown out of proportion. The only thing that really bugged me is that when i had solid reference to back up some of the things i said and why I felt a certain way (no-grind game topic), you pretty much completely dismissed it without linking me to any sources that say otherwise and it was just me being ignorant.

I was not at fault when they said that they “don’t want Gw2 to be a grind game” when in fact after playing the game I found it to be a fairly high-grind based game.

That’s pretty misleading don’t you think? Can you blame me for being a little upset?

Also, the discussion about making Gw2 different for the better, well….
Assassins Creed has been kept the same throughout the series… the only difference is they have improved on the core systems, refine mechanics with new stories and added new features in each addition. They never turned it into a first person shooter otherwise it wouldn’t be “Assassins Creed”, would it? And each addition to the series got better. I know Assassins Creed is not an MMO but the principles still stand.
As for Gw2, they may as well have changed it to a first person shooter.

Basically, this is the point I’ve been trying to make this whole time to help justify why I feel this way about this game.

gkrit.9416:

@vayne – this is no attack at you but all this talk about opinions being valid and whatnot has pretty much been blown out of proportion. The only thing that really bugged me is that when i had solid reference to back up some of the things i said and why I felt a certain way (no-grind game topic), you pretty much completely dismissed it without linking me to any sources that say otherwise and it was just me being ignorant.

I was not at fault when they said that they “don’t want Gw2 to be a grind game” when in fact after playing the game I found it to be a fairly high-grind based game.

That’s pretty misleading don’t you think? Can you blame me for being a little upset?

Also, the discussion about making Gw2 different for the better, well….
Assassins Creed has been kept the same throughout the series… the only difference is they have improved on the core systems, refine mechanics with new stories and added new features in each addition. They never turned it into a first person shooter otherwise it wouldn’t be “Assassins Creed”, would it? I know Assassins Creed is not an MMO but the principles still stand.
As for Gw2, they may as well have changed it to a first person shooter.

Basically, this is the point I’ve been trying to make this whole time to help justify why I feel this way about this game.

How many people on these forums, besides me, have said this is NOT a grind game or that there’s no grind in the game, or that the grind is completely optional. Surely I’m not the only person you’ve seen who’s said this.

You can put all the data you want down, but data doesn’t mean everything and in some ways it doesn’t mean anything. Or at least, it only means things to certain kinds of players.

My wife plays this game, and she doesn’t really look at numbers at all. She doesn’t care about them. She either can beat something or she can’t and if she can’t, she’ll make changes until she can. It’s a different thought process, a different way of looking at the world.

You’re completely justified in your view of the game. You don’t have to prove it to anyone, least of all yourself. It’s okay to find a game grindy or not like a game.

I’m simply saying that there’s also a different mindset out there, and that it’s a pretty wide-spread one. People play these games for all different reasons.

When I try to show the other side of the coin, it doesn’t mean that your opinion is wrong. It means that all the examples and math and whatever that you show only means something to people who actually care about that particularly thing.

For example, someone did math to show how much more powerful a person is with ascended gear vs. not having ascended gear.

When I go into WvW, I hardly ever 1v1 anyway, but when I do, I win about as often as I lose. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. I have no clue what the other guy is wearing. He could have full ascended gear and he could not.

The idea that there is a higher stat doesn’t take into account the fact that when you meet someone in one vs. one combat, you already have a build and they already have a build and you each already have professions and based on that alone, that battle could already be won or lost. If you’re depending on boons and the other guy is adept at stripping boons, you’re at a major disadvantage. It’s entirely possible having ascended gear isn’t going to save you.

So I go into WvW, knowing that it’s not balanced for 1v1 anyway and most of the time I’m with a group. The guys who play better or have the better builds for the encounter will likely win. The ascended stuff doesn’t make enough difference for me to worry about it.

You can worry about it if you want. Lots of people do, but they’re making a whole bunch of assumptions when they meet another player in a 1v1 situation.

It doesn’t invalidate the opinion of the person who feels he needs ascended gear. But nor does that invalidate my opinion that that person only needs it because he feels he needs it, not because the game requires him to need it…and that’s a major difference to me.

In Rift, if I didn’t have 100 focus, I couldn’t queue for a dungeon. Didn’t matter what I felt or what I didn’t, I couldn’t do the content. But I get around WvW without ascended gear just fine.

It’s not that the math behind someone’s opinion is wrong. It’s that it takes a certain mindset to care about that, and I simple don’t personally have that mindset.

ArenaNet really should take down that Manifesto video from everywhere, since apparently people have a rather major issue with understanding the point of a manifesto and will forever bring up said manifesto when something they don’t like turn up in the game.
This has been the case with every single update since release.
People point to the manifesto and how ArenaNet lied in said manifesto because they added something they didn’t liked.

clay.7849:

The customer is always right…

As someone who has worked in retail, I hate this phrase. As someone who works currently in food service? Oh I really hate this phrase. It inevitably has been corrupted into being used in ways unintended by those who created it. I prefer the other format used by Cesar Ritz: “The customer is never wrong”. While logical examination of the two phrases says they’re the same, in reality they’re subtly different.

Judge Banks.9018:

For those who never wanted to face the reality, read up on it here

Okay, what reality are we supposed to be facing? Because the reality I started facing a long time ago is simple: trailers are common to misrepresent what actually is. I mean, they try to make Friedberg and Seltzer movies look appealing.

I’ve repeated a lot about what I felt about the Manifesto: it was a goal, an ideal to strive for. This is what they want to do when they make a game, as best as they can. They missed. That doesn’t make it a lie, and people repeatedly trying to take single sentences out of context annoy me more than the people labeling it as “one great marketing lie”. (Half right, it was a marketing ploy.)

phys.7689:

I think the point hes making here is not that you shouldnt have an opinion. I think he is saying that simply dismissing everything as opinion is worthless in terms of actual problem solving. Hes saying dont just say nothing matters because everyone has an opinion.

Say i have this opinion based on these factors, heres where i think something is strong, and heres where i think something is lacking. The point is to have a discussion that may give deeper understanding or bear fruit. The topic is do you find the game fun. Of course its going to be an opinion, but theoretically by discussing why yes, and why no, someone seeking solutions maybe able to glean useful information on why people are happy, or not happy, and better allot their resources towards making the game over all, better.

Of course nothing may come of it, but eh point of a forum is discussion, why not try.

I don’t bother too much with “trying” very hard for a couple reasons:

- I don’t find Trahearne to be a crazed glory hound out to steal all the credit for everything ever done around him.

- I like playing the game when I have the time.

- I don’t feel the need to go get things which I don’t have the time/requirement to have.

- I don’t mind paying for something I actually want, even if it’s largely “it looks neat”.

- I don’t think this game is the bestest thing evar, nor the puppy-beating spawn of the devil.

- I tend to change my opinions rather than stick to them even after I no longer believe them anymore.

This generally puts me at odds with 90% of forum residents.

Vayne.8563:

When I go into WvW, I hardly ever 1v1 anyway, but when I do, I win about as often as I lose. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. I have no clue what the other guy is wearing. He could have full ascended gear and he could not.

Are you playing a ranger? If you are, how do you win, because I have yet to actually win a 1v1 match in WvW

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

When I go into WvW, I hardly ever 1v1 anyway, but when I do, I win about as often as I lose. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. I have no clue what the other guy is wearing. He could have full ascended gear and he could not.

Are you playing a ranger? If you are, how do you win, because I have yet to actually win a 1v1 match in WvW

I am playing a ranger. Scary huh? I’m specced so my pet does a lot more damage than me. Most people tend to ignore my pet and go after me. I’m also a sylvari and get 3 seconds of invulnerability with my elite. When combined with the turrets that spawn and my pet and me…well…I can be pretty hard to kill. If they take down my pet first, or try to, I just switch pets before it dies.

Like I say, I win as much as I lose. Naturally dodging and knowing when to back off help a lot.

Vayne.8563:

gkrit.9416:

-cut-

I was not at fault when they said that they “don’t want Gw2 to be a grind game” when in fact after playing the game I found it to be a fairly high-grind based game.

That’s pretty misleading don’t you think? Can you blame me for being a little upset?

Also, the discussion about making Gw2 different for the better, well….
Assassins Creed has been kept the same throughout the series… the only difference is they have improved on the core systems, refine mechanics with new stories and added new features in each addition. They never turned it into a first person shooter otherwise it wouldn’t be “Assassins Creed”, would it? I know Assassins Creed is not an MMO but the principles still stand.
As for Gw2, they may as well have changed it to a first person shooter.

Basically, this is the point I’ve been trying to make this whole time to help justify why I feel this way about this game.

How many people on these forums, besides me, have said this is NOT a grind game or that there’s no grind in the game, or that the grind is completely optional. Surely I’m not the only person you’ve seen who’s said this.

You can put all the data you want down, but data doesn’t mean everything and in some ways it doesn’t mean anything. Or at least, it only means things to certain kinds of players.

My wife plays this game, and she doesn’t really look at numbers at all. She doesn’t care about them. She either can beat something or she can’t and if she can’t, she’ll make changes until she can. It’s a different thought process, a different way of looking at the world.

You’re completely justified in your view of the game. You don’t have to prove it to anyone, least of all yourself. It’s okay to find a game grindy or not like a game.

I’m simply saying that there’s also a different mindset out there, and that it’s a pretty wide-spread one. People play these games for all different reasons.

When I try to show the other side of the coin, it doesn’t mean that your opinion is wrong. It means that all the examples and math and whatever that you show only means something to people who actually care about that particularly thing.

For example, someone did math to show how much more powerful a person is with ascended gear vs. not having ascended gear.

When I go into WvW, I hardly ever 1v1 anyway, but when I do, I win about as often as I lose. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. I have no clue what the other guy is wearing. He could have full ascended gear and he could not.

The idea that there is a higher stat doesn’t take into account the fact that when you meet someone in one vs. one combat, you already have a build and they already have a build and you each already have professions and based on that alone, that battle could already be won or lost. If you’re depending on boons and the other guy is adept at stripping boons, you’re at a major disadvantage. It’s entirely possible having ascended gear isn’t going to save you.

So I go into WvW, knowing that it’s not balanced for 1v1 anyway and most of the time I’m with a group. The guys who play better or have the better builds for the encounter will likely win. The ascended stuff doesn’t make enough difference for me to worry about it.

You can worry about it if you want. Lots of people do, but they’re making a whole bunch of assumptions when they meet another player in a 1v1 situation.

It doesn’t invalidate the opinion of the person who feels he needs ascended gear. But nor does that invalidate my opinion that that person only needs it because he feels he needs it, not because the game requires him to need it…and that’s a major difference to me.

In Rift, if I didn’t have 100 focus, I couldn’t queue for a dungeon. Didn’t matter what I felt or what I didn’t, I couldn’t do the content. But I get around WvW without ascended gear just fine.

It’s not that the math behind someone’s opinion is wrong. It’s that it takes a certain mindset to care about that, and I simple don’t personally have that mindset.

Countless others have said that it IS a a grind game lol. So what is it I wonder?

Now this is where discussion goes nowhere. This topic discussion however has gone as long as it has because obviously there is two sides to this story and somewhere along the lines, something is not right. This is where the middle man (Anet in this case) needs to be included to take both sides into account and move forward from there. I just really hope they read these threads.

gkrit.9416:

Vayne.8563:

gkrit.9416:

-cut-

snip

snip

My wife plays this game, and she doesn’t really look at numbers at all. She doesn’t care about them. She either can beat something or she can’t and if she can’t, she’ll make changes until she can. It’s a different thought process, a different way of looking at the world.

You’re completely justified in your view of the game. You don’t have to prove it to anyone, least of all yourself. It’s okay to find a game grindy or not like a game.

I’m simply saying that there’s also a different mindset out there, and that it’s a pretty wide-spread one. People play these games for all different reasons.

When I try to show the other side of the coin, it doesn’t mean that your opinion is wrong. It means that all the examples and math and whatever that you show only means something to people who actually care about that particularly thing.

For example, someone did math to show how much more powerful a person is with ascended gear vs. not having ascended gear.

When I go into WvW, I hardly ever 1v1 anyway, but when I do, I win about as often as I lose. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. I have no clue what the other guy is wearing. He could have full ascended gear and he could not.

The idea that there is a higher stat doesn’t take into account the fact that when you meet someone in one vs. one combat, you already have a build and they already have a build and you each already have professions and based on that alone, that battle could already be won or lost. If you’re depending on boons and the other guy is adept at stripping boons, you’re at a major disadvantage. It’s entirely possible having ascended gear isn’t going to save you.

So I go into WvW, knowing that it’s not balanced for 1v1 anyway and most of the time I’m with a group. The guys who play better or have the better builds for the encounter will likely win. The ascended stuff doesn’t make enough difference for me to worry about it.

You can worry about it if you want. Lots of people do, but they’re making a whole bunch of assumptions when they meet another player in a 1v1 situation.

It doesn’t invalidate the opinion of the person who feels he needs ascended gear. But nor does that invalidate my opinion that that person only needs it because he feels he needs it, not because the game requires him to need it…and that’s a major difference to me.

In Rift, if I didn’t have 100 focus, I couldn’t queue for a dungeon. Didn’t matter what I felt or what I didn’t, I couldn’t do the content. But I get around WvW without ascended gear just fine.

It’s not that the math behind someone’s opinion is wrong. It’s that it takes a certain mindset to care about that, and I simple don’t personally have that mindset.

Countless others have said that it IS a a grind game lol. So what is it I wonder?

Now this is where discussion goes nowhere. This topic discussion however has gone as long as it has because obviously there is two sides to this story and somewhere along the lines, something is not right. This is where the middle man (Anet in this case) needs to be included to take both sides into account and move forward from there. I just really hope they read these threads.

They read some of them. I doubt they can read every thread. After all, Anet isn’t a person, it’s a company. Even if people in the company do read every thread, they’d still only bring certain threads to the attention of the devs, like first readers in publishing companies.

The thing is, whether it’s a grind game or not is completely a matter of perspective. Of how you approach the game. I don’t think Anet thinks their game is grindy because they’ve said they don’t make grindy games. Therefore, they don’t see the grind. My guess is, they’re approaching it from my point of view, more than your point of view.

There was a ton of grind in Guild Wars 1 too…optional grind. But even so there was grind that could make your character more powerful. People seem to forget this. Your luxon, sunspear, lightbringer, norn, asura, ebon vanguard and deldrimor skills all increased as you leveled that faction. You got more power for that grind. And that grind was far worse than getting ascended weapons.

No way anyone can convince me that technobabble, pain inverter and save yourselves, when leveled in Guild Wars 1, weren’t almost game-breakingly powerful in PVe. And they all required grind to level them to be useful.

Plus in some areas, or against some enemies you got bonuses for grinding in EotN. Grind isn’t new to this franchise.

But again, you didn’t have to do it in Guild Wars 1 and you don’t have to do it here. (See I provided data, aren’t you proud of me? lol).

I really think Vayne and Clay need their own forum section. Then Anet could box it and sell it.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’ve repeated a lot about what I felt about the Manifesto: it was a goal, an ideal to strive for. This is what they want to do when they make a game, as best as they can. They missed. That doesn’t make it a lie, and people repeatedly trying to take single sentences out of context annoy me more than the people labeling it as “one great marketing lie”. (Half right, it was a marketing ploy.)

This is pretty funny.

But what exactly has been taken out of context in this situation?

gkrit.9416:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’ve repeated a lot about what I felt about the Manifesto: it was a goal, an ideal to strive for. This is what they want to do when they make a game, as best as they can. They missed. That doesn’t make it a lie, and people repeatedly trying to take single sentences out of context annoy me more than the people labeling it as “one great marketing lie”. (Half right, it was a marketing ploy.)

This is pretty funny.

But what exactly has been taken out of context in this situation?

The sentence most taken out of context is the one about grind. It’s clear from the context exactly what Colin is talking about and people try to use it to say that Anet said there would be on grind in this game. Not quite what was said in the manifesto however.

Vayne.8563:

gkrit.9416:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’ve repeated a lot about what I felt about the Manifesto: it was a goal, an ideal to strive for. This is what they want to do when they make a game, as best as they can. They missed. That doesn’t make it a lie, and people repeatedly trying to take single sentences out of context annoy me more than the people labeling it as “one great marketing lie”. (Half right, it was a marketing ploy.)

This is pretty funny.

But what exactly has been taken out of context in this situation?

The sentence most taken out of context is the one about grind. It’s clear from the context exactly what Colin is talking about and people try to use it to say that Anet said there would be on grind in this game. Not quite what was said in the manifesto however.

anywayz .. all good.

This game just didnt hook me like the first one did.. my loss i guess.

gkrit.9416:

Vayne.8563:

gkrit.9416:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’ve repeated a lot about what I felt about the Manifesto: it was a goal, an ideal to strive for. This is what they want to do when they make a game, as best as they can. They missed. That doesn’t make it a lie, and people repeatedly trying to take single sentences out of context annoy me more than the people labeling it as “one great marketing lie”. (Half right, it was a marketing ploy.)

This is pretty funny.

But what exactly has been taken out of context in this situation?

The sentence most taken out of context is the one about grind. It’s clear from the context exactly what Colin is talking about and people try to use it to say that Anet said there would be on grind in this game. Not quite what was said in the manifesto however.

anywayz .. all good.

This game just didnt hook me like the first one did.. my loss i guess.

The first game was great. In fact, we’re having a guild event now every week in Guild Wars 1, going back and helping people who haven’t seen it, see the law and get some HoM points. It’s pretty cool.

They really are very different games. And I like them both.

killcannon.2576:

I really think Vayne and Clay need their own forum section. Then Anet could box it and sell it.

Didn’t they already make a tv series about it…it was called the Odd Couple. lol

It would seem that some of you are trying to prove your opinions to each other. There is no need, as that is as fruitless as these forum discussions are. The developers aren’t going to be convinced of anything by our discussions. Every time a new interview is released, they prove again and again that they live in their own little bubble.

As for the question this thread poses:
This game is so good. It is so close to being great. I had great fun for these months since beta weekends; leveling 5 80’s and gearing them… working on leveling more. Over 1100 hours of fun has been had. Real money has been spent in the gem store. I regret nothing.

Now? Not so much fun have I. I log in to do my daily, for fear of falling behind on some intangible advantage. Then, I go play other games that I actually enjoy. If there was another MMO that seemed worth the time, I would switch in a heartbeat.

RNG boxes, Arenanet tossing their own manifesto out the window, small dribbles of bland content called a “living story”, ridiculously out of touch developer comments, and the knowledge that there is no expansion in the works have drained me of almost all of the passion I have for this game.

The Super Adventure Box is the only actual fun I have had in months.

gkrit.9416:

Countless others have said that it IS a a grind game lol. So what is it I wonder?

Now this is where discussion goes nowhere. This topic discussion however has gone as long as it has because obviously there is two sides to this story and somewhere along the lines, something is not right. This is where the middle man (Anet in this case) needs to be included to take both sides into account and move forward from there. I just really hope they read these threads.

heres the thing, they said that people misunderstood, they clarified it before the game came out.
You dont have to grind to have fun was or be able to do things.
the second part of the whole grind talk was, yeah you may have to kill 1000s of monsters for a certain item, but it will be cosmetic, which honestly is pretty accurate, (ascended is a bit different, but ascended is generally time gated, not straight grinded)

and taking people use GW as an example, GW was just as grindy as GW2. Most of the reason it didnt seem grindy was because they didnt plan out the economy that well. Over time there got to be so many runes in circulation the prices dropped, but they were not cheap or easy to get in prophecies. GW1 titles were pretty insane. I spent a great deal of time and resources getting vabbian armor, and i never had close to the amount of mats that obsidian armor would have required.

I would get 0-3 ectos an underworld run, and chaos gloves cost 75, and 10k plat.

GW2 is grind for cosmetics, its pretty different from other games with gear checks. That said, while a long term game needs long term goals, I think anets current reward guys plug some pretty off putting numbers into things, and put too much repetitive into tasks.

Null Unit.4375:

It would seem that some of you are trying to prove your opinions to each other. There is no need, as that is as fruitless as these forum discussions are. The developers aren’t going to be convinced of anything by our discussions. Every time a new interview is released, they prove again and again that they live in their own little bubble.

As for the question this thread poses:
This game is so good. It is so close to being great. I had great fun for these months since beta weekends; leveling 5 80’s and gearing them… working on leveling more. Over 1100 hours of fun has been had. Real money has been spent in the gem store. I regret nothing.

Now? Not so much fun have I. I log in to do my daily, for fear of falling behind on some intangible advantage. Then, I go play other games that I actually enjoy. If there was another MMO that seemed worth the time, I would switch in a heartbeat.

RNG boxes, Arenanet tossing their own manifesto out the window, small dribbles of bland content called a “living story”, ridiculously out of touch developer comments, and the knowledge that there is no expansion in the works have drained me of almost all of the passion I have for this game.

The Super Adventure Box is the only actual fun I have had in months.

i agree that laurels as they currently are, are a bit of a pain, and make you feel like you have to log on, rather than you want to log on. I think the execution would be better if they had some other means of obtaining them, like from achievement points, or certain other tasks gave you some.

And SAB i think is probably the most fun addition they have done recently. This is not just due to nostalgia, it has a better overall design than a lot of other content;
the level is designed with hidden secrets and multiple ways to handle the same areas, you get rewarded for exploration as much as beating the level. (if you know where the spots are you can get as many or more baubles just doing hittng teh secrets) If they added a couple unpredictable elements, from a level design standpoint it would be up there.

Reality is though, there will always be moments between content in all forms. Its easier to consome it, than create. When i draw a sequential art page, it takes like 4-12 hours a page. people read it in 30 seconds to 2 minutes. What can you do? 2 hour movies take a year+ to create.
there will always be times when things arent as exciting or you did it all, unless they artificially inflate doing it all with various filler, that many people say they dont want.

gkrit.9416:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’ve repeated a lot about what I felt about the Manifesto: it was a goal, an ideal to strive for. This is what they want to do when they make a game, as best as they can. They missed. That doesn’t make it a lie, and people repeatedly trying to take single sentences out of context annoy me more than the people labeling it as “one great marketing lie”. (Half right, it was a marketing ploy.)

This is pretty funny.

But what exactly has been taken out of context in this situation?

It’s not this situation per se, as I’m not going to bother poring over posts not directed at me over this. I just get tired of the Manifesto being held up like it was TEH LAW and any deviation from it must mean ArenaNet are cheats, liars, and only our for our money, yo.

Like I said, I may be the only person who saw it and said “isn’t that nice, let’s see some gameplay”. And who didn’t commit until I had people who played the BWEs to give me some feedback. After I picked their brains for details, I bought my game and that was that.

And when I’m no longer enjoying myself, I’ll take a break. I have before, from the utter perfection which was Guild Wars 1 (or so you’d think it to be, reading these forums) when all I had left was Lucky and Zaishen Supporter :P

I’d have to say not fun. It’s really a shame because all the elements are there for it to be epic. They just don’t seem to be able to find the right balance. The experience winds up being monotonous and boring.

I will say this, I’ve never seen a game with more potential. (which makes it being lackluster all the more frustrating.)

clay.7849:

Otherwise, I would be quite content to discuss what I think this game does well, what it doesn’t do well, why, and how to make it better.

I love discussions on that vein, the problem is what people think would make it “better” isn’t always the same. There’s always someone talking about mounts, or raids, or other stuff to make the game better.

For me? I want stuff honed. ArenaNet has a potentially great game here if they can polish and tune it. (I won’t go so far as to say it’s on my Top 20 but it’s still great.) There’s a lot of things they included which didn’t work properly and had to be fine-tuned, or removed outright. I’d like to see them figure out how to put them back in, or to complete what potentially could be there.

New races? Professions? New areas? I can wait on those . . .

Give me the Living Story with a monthly story arc which starts big, ends big, and moves on.

Give me occasional (occasional!) diversions like the Super Adventure Box, Wintersday, Shadow of the Mad King.

Give me some WvW play which rewards those who sit back and do defense or support work (you know, so people actually feel like it’s not a waste of their time/gold).

Give me another method of earning Ascended Amulets. A sane one.

Give me more crafting options at 400. Like alternate skins, because I don’t like Pearled :P

Ultimately, all I really care about is that PvP become as good as it was in GW1. For this to happen, combat needs to be better and we need some new objectives. Fortunately, I think these things could actually happen if the devs decided they wanted to do them. Unfortunately, I don’t know that these things are a priority. But, I’m sure someone will come along in their infinite wisdom and say something like PvP doesn’t sell and dismiss the whole idea before it gets started. THAT is the kind of thing I despise.

Eh, you’re on a section of the game I don’t touch and probably won’t. Frankly, I lack proper skill to PvP on any level. I didn’t experience it much in GW1 either, other than to find out a solid build meant nothing when my team’s opponents were halfway decent. I never did see the Hall of Heroes . . .

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I love discussions on that vein, the problem is what people think would make it “better” isn’t always the same. There’s always someone talking about mounts, or raids, or other stuff to make the game better.

For me? I want stuff honed. ArenaNet has a potentially great game here if they can polish and tune it. (I won’t go so far as to say it’s on my Top 20 but it’s still great.) There’s a lot of things they included which didn’t work properly and had to be fine-tuned, or removed outright. I’d like to see them figure out how to put them back in, or to complete what potentially could be there.

New races? Professions? New areas? I can wait on those . . .

Give me the Living Story with a monthly story arc which starts big, ends big, and moves on.

Give me occasional (occasional!) diversions like the Super Adventure Box, Wintersday, Shadow of the Mad King.

Give me some WvW play which rewards those who sit back and do defense or support work (you know, so people actually feel like it’s not a waste of their time/gold).

Give me another method of earning Ascended Amulets. A sane one.

Give me more crafting options at 400. Like alternate skins, because I don’t like Pearled :P

Eh, you’re on a section of the game I don’t touch and probably won’t. Frankly, I lack proper skill to PvP on any level. I didn’t experience it much in GW1 either, other than to find out a solid build meant nothing when my team’s opponents were halfway decent. I never did see the Hall of Heroes . . .

I agree. I think there is a lot of honing. It is why I am generally upset that it was released the way it was. It felt really unfinished. I understand that money is important, but IMO, releasing a game that is ready is more important, otherwise you’re just kind of selling out your customers.

I agree on waiting for new races and professions. There is plenty to do with what we have, and IMO, new classes kinda screwed up GW1 when they were introduced. So, I would be hesitant to see them introduced now, especially that I believe the game is still kind of in beta.

The Living Story to me doesn’t feel alive, it just feels like a new quest of things to do each month centered around a pre-written story. I would love to see something where choices made by servers or races or something can actually influence the story and the world. Same thing with dynamics events. They aren’t really dynamic.

ANet has always been good about diversions like Wintersday and April Fools, etc. So, I am happy they continue to do this well.

I agree with WvW. A new map in the rotation, some new ways to get badges that don’t include zerging, etc. would go a long way to making it more fun. I enjoyed it for a bit, but it still lacks attention to make it feel complete and robust.

Agreed on the Ascended Amulets. Dailies are very prohibiting to gearing one character in a decent amount of time, let alone someone with a multitude of alts. FoTM is fun, but there really should be other ways to get Ascended Gear. Hell, put me on an epic quest that takes 500k karma to complete to get one ascended piece, I would love that, as I’m sure WvW players would love to see badges count towards ascended gear, regardless of how many it takes. People just want options.

Crafting is meh, but I don’t care much for crafting.

Also, I wish everyone could know what it was like to progress through all the maps in HA to then win and hold halls. PvP, IMO, was always a great end game activity. HA and GvG were the most fun I have had in any game I have ever played. Winning a MTG tournament was a close second. It was this thing specifically that I thought ANet could replicate in GW2 and the thing with which I am most disappointed. However, I do think that it can get better without breaking the foundation upon which this game was made. I just don’t feel ANet really cares sometimes. That, ultimately, is my problem.

GW1 had a great philosophy of change and did a great job implementing it. GW2 also had a great philosophy of change, but IMO and many others’ opinions, they did not implement it well enough to meet the expectations of those people looking for that change. I realize that people love the game, and I am glad they love it and I hope that it keeps them enthralled for year and I don’t want to bring them down because of my own experiences or unmet expectations. But, at the same time, I don’t need to be told my opinion is wrong, or that it doesn’t matter, or that this game isn’t for me, or that I simply don’t know enough about MMOs, or that I’m unrealistic. I try not to battle people who have opinions that the game is good, but I do resent when people try to tell me that my opinion doesn’t count or that I should quit the game or that I shouldn’t have bought it.

I used to- when it 1st started I was hooked, BLTP costs were low & everyone was starting to figure out dungeons & so forth. It used to be fun.

anymore though, I’ll get on once in awhile- just not as fun as it was.

I’m still having fun. I did play it so much at first that I burned myself out on it for a couple months … but, see, since there’s no worry about falling behind and no monthly payment, I was able to take a couple months off and not stress over it. Came back a couple weeks ago, was reminded all over again why I love the game and am back to enjoying it all over again. Most MMOs don’t give you that same sense of freedom; it was one of the things I loved about GW1, too, and I played that on and off for years. (and happily bought all the expansions)

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

I really think Vayne and Clay need their own forum section. Then Anet could box it and sell it.

Personally, I just like trolling Vayne because he has a habit of telling people they are wrong without any proof.

Otherwise, I would be quite content to discuss what I think this game does well, what it doesn’t do well, why, and how to make it better.

Unfortunately, that is near impossible because of all the fanboys that get insulted that someone thinks their game isn’t perfect.

Ultimately, all I really care about is that PvP become as good as it was in GW1. For this to happen, combat needs to be better and we need some new objectives. Fortunately, I think these things could actually happen if the devs decided they wanted to do them. Unfortunately, I don’t know that these things are a priority. But, I’m sure someone will come along in their infinite wisdom and say something like PvP doesn’t sell and dismiss the whole idea before it gets started. THAT is the kind of thing I despise.

Other than that, it is quite funny to rile up the fanboys, especially the ringleader.

Omg this made me lol! So true clay lol.

The game became un-fun for me because of:

A: Dungeons – too hard and rewards weren’t consistent with risks and effort involved.

B: DR – Why oh why do they have this. If I want to farm for Tiny Claws, why they heck aren’t I allowed to do it?

So, back to WoW for me.

Cheers.

Lankybrit.4598:

The game became un-fun for me because of:

A: Dungeons – too hard and rewards weren’t consistent with risks and effort involved.

B: DR – Why oh why do they have this. If I want to farm for Tiny Claws, why they heck aren’t I allowed to do it?

So, back to WoW for me.

Cheers.

A: not too hard. Master your class better and learn the mechanics.
B: this game is not centered on farm.
Also as a note: Cya!

Vayne.8563:

The problem is, when you guys attack me personally because you don’t like my opinion. I’m not ENCOURAGED to have a conversation with you.

I’ll let others decide whether or not I’m just a man of opinions or if I have facts to back them up. I know I have a few detractors on these forums, but as many detractors as I have, I’ve gotten personal messages from far more people who like what I have to say.

Maybe try seeing things from the other person’s point of view before posting? It’s generally a good way to gain perspective on some of the different and maybe less popular ideas out there and might give you a glimpse of what’s outside the box.

Agreed, it is not your (or anyone else’s) job to educate fellow forum users but, if someone has a strong opinion on a given subject and that opinion differs from yours the easiest way to conclude an argument is to provide enough evidence for your case. By evidence I refer to official developer/industry expert statements – relevant to the topic being discussed. Excuses like “I can’t be bothered looking for the link” (edit: from discussions I’ve had with you in the past) will severely undermine your future credibility and just opens the door to condescending replies or personal attacks.

Voltron.1043:

As many stated before. It was fun, I was hooked, after 6 monts there was nothing to do. All dungeons were piece of cake, all char had thier gear and all I got was to get Legendary. But game is so unrewarding that I burnt out. I think this is what mostly got me- unrewarding system, too much RNG, too much gold sinks, and always feeling poor even after 1k hours of playing and mastering every content. I feel poor enough in RL, so when I feel always poor and urewarded in game taht suppose to be fun outside the RL and reward me for skills and dedication and playing (not for TP wall street), I just burn out and move on.

@Vayne- I am sorry, but I read forum just to see what is going on, and in every thread when there is even one thing against GW2 you jump in and make this thread an Holy War. You just cant stand any critic and just shut up and deal with diffrent opinions. You are trying almost maniacal and obssesive to prove everyone that they are wrong. You have more post than anyone on any “Put your opinion on GW2” therad on this forum. Like some fanatic who is jumping from one person to another in all threads and trying with loooong posts to always prove he is right, all with diffrent opinions are wrong. And your talks about opinions and facts.. man- this is hypocrisy. It is not personal, it is just how you look for averge forum reader who is not taking part in your “flaming passion discussions”.

I think you should drop forum, start to take some walks, and get other interests then Gw2, maybe read some books. Just chill out man, really. It is not crusade. I think you are too obsesive and there are other things in world then GW2, much better.

You haven’t read enough of the forums if you haven’t seen me criticize the game. I have. What I won’t have is people spouting nonsense with NOTHING to back it up. People who say the game is dying or losing population…totally ridiculous. There are enough people playing (and paying) to keep the game going a long time. I know it because I see what I see. It’ll never have ten million players, but it’ll have more than enough to keep going. Those who think other wise can get back to me in a couple of years.

The point is, I do speak out about stuff. And I don’t answer every thread where someone has a legit complaint. What I do answer is people who insist in exaagerating or using hyperbole to try to prove a point. People who make stuff up…well, I’m perfectly happy to talk to them.

There are issues with this game, I never said otherwise. But that doesn’t mean Anet lied to people with the manifesto. It doesn’t mean that the game population is going down. It means it’s a new MMO.

And if you don’t like my posts, feel free not to read them.

SadieDeAtreia.8912:

Vayne.8563:

The problem is, when you guys attack me personally because you don’t like my opinion. I’m not ENCOURAGED to have a conversation with you.

I’ll let others decide whether or not I’m just a man of opinions or if I have facts to back them up. I know I have a few detractors on these forums, but as many detractors as I have, I’ve gotten personal messages from far more people who like what I have to say.

Maybe try seeing things from the other person’s point of view before posting? It’s generally a good way to gain perspective on some of the different and maybe less popular ideas out there and might give you a glimpse of what’s outside the box.

Agreed, it is not your (or anyone else’s) job to educate fellow forum users but, if someone has a strong opinion on a given subject and that opinion differs from yours the easiest way to conclude an argument is to provide enough evidence for your case. By evidence I refer to official developer/industry expert statements – relevant to the topic being discussed. Excuses like “I can’t be bothered looking for the link” (edit: from discussions I’ve had with you in the past) will severely undermine your future credibility and just opens the door to condescending replies or personal attacks.

I have plenty of evidence to back up what I say. By some people that evidence is ignored. Simply put, I can fight fire with fire.

Half my case, though is built on long term observation. Whether you like it or not, experience matters. If I say that other games have had imbalances over the years, and I’ve played a dozen games, I don’t have to go to every game site and every forum and point out exactly where or what those imbalances are. Want to know why?

Because anyone who’s played those games knows it’s the truth. And I’m not trying to convince a handful of naysayers that games like Guild Wars 1 had major imbalanced over the years. It really is common knowledge.

If I decided to say the Earth wasn’t flat, I wouldn’t put in a reference either.

Vayne doesn’t like it either when you say that MMOs in general don’t live up to expectations and there is no evidence that GW2 will be any different. Actually making a game that will last a long time is the exception and not the norm and as of yet we have no way to tell if GW2 will be the exception.

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Vayne.8563:

And if you don’t like my posts, feel free not to read them.

Pretty hard when half of all the posts in these threads are yours.

If the suggestions sub-forum wasn’t such a total waste of time, and didn’t swallow up threads to be forever lost in clutter, I may have given enough of a kitten to post there with a “Maximum forum post count per day” suggestion.

Think about it… people would have to stop trolling and really plan their daily posts carefully. Might lead to actual discussion, instead of the fanboi-apologist-trolling we are subjected to now.

Vayne.8563:

Drew.1865:

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

I really think Vayne and Clay need their own forum section. Then Anet could box it and sell it.

Personally, I just like trolling Vayne because he has a habit of telling people they are wrong without any proof.

Otherwise, I would be quite content to discuss what I think this game does well, what it doesn’t do well, why, and how to make it better.

Unfortunately, that is near impossible because of all the fanboys that get insulted that someone thinks their game isn’t perfect.

Ultimately, all I really care about is that PvP become as good as it was in GW1. For this to happen, combat needs to be better and we need some new objectives. Fortunately, I think these things could actually happen if the devs decided they wanted to do them. Unfortunately, I don’t know that these things are a priority. But, I’m sure someone will come along in their infinite wisdom and say something like PvP doesn’t sell and dismiss the whole idea before it gets started. THAT is the kind of thing I despise.

Other than that, it is quite funny to rile up the fanboys, especially the ringleader.

Omg this made me lol! So true clay lol.

At least he can admit that he’s trolling me. I’ve known it all along, but it puts a lot of what he does and says in perspective, and makes me question the veracity of everything he says.

I’m the ying to your yang. Together, we balance the universe. :P

SadieDeAtreia.8912:

Think about it… people would have to stop trolling and really plan their daily posts carefully. Might lead to actual discussion, instead of the fanboi-apologist-trolling we are subjected to now.

This is an excellent suggestion.

Guns and Giblets.9308:

SadieDeAtreia.8912:

Think about it… people would have to stop trolling and really plan their daily posts carefully. Might lead to actual discussion, instead of the fanboi-apologist-trolling we are subjected to now.

This is an excellent suggestion.

Agreed.

yes I think this game is a lot of fun

the best part is that I have never felt the need to grind to experience content. I didn’t like some of the dailies and monthlies… so I didn’t do then but I still got to experience flame and frost. the new characters seem good

combat is really fun, artwork is excellent and my guild is a great laugh! and wvw has some epic battles. overall if you treat thus game as something you play for entertainment it’s incredible. if you’re a traditional hardcore mmo player who is looking for a game to dedicate their life to and repeat things over and over to experience the next upcoming content on release then look away.

Vayne.8563:

You haven’t read enough of the forums if you haven’t seen me criticize the game. I have. What I won’t have is people spouting nonsense with NOTHING to back it up. People who say the game is dying or losing population…totally ridiculous. There are enough people playing (and paying) to keep the game going a long time. I know it because I see what I see. It’ll never have ten million players, but it’ll have more than enough to keep going. Those who think other wise can get back to me in a couple of years.

The point is, I do speak out about stuff. And I don’t answer every thread where someone has a legit complaint. What I do answer is people who insist in exaagerating or using hyperbole to try to prove a point. People who make stuff up…well, I’m perfectly happy to talk to them.

There are issues with this game, I never said otherwise. But that doesn’t mean Anet lied to people with the manifesto. It doesn’t mean that the game population is going down. It means it’s a new MMO.

And if you don’t like my posts, feel free not to read them.

I only came back to this thread just to see if it moved on lol but then i came across this post.

How do you know that the population is not going down? Are you able to provide statistics? or are you just basing it on what you “see”?

And as for losing even 1 paying customer… that can be a serious thing. You lose 2 then 3 and its starts to get worse. Don’t underestimate the value of 1 person because if you did not have one person to begin with, then, you’re not going anywhere.

I know that the group of people that I used to play with, are no longer playing (hence reduction in possible in-game purchases… already a loss the company). Now if others say their groups have stopped playing also, then yeah… you get the picture (or not)

You say people are spouting nonsense without any backup… well that’s what you just did in this post.

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Vayne.8563:

And if you don’t like my posts, feel free not to read them.

Pretty hard when half of all the posts in these threads are yours.

Would just mean less reading for you. I’d think you’d welcome that.

gkrit.9416:

Vayne.8563:

You haven’t read enough of the forums if you haven’t seen me criticize the game. I have. What I won’t have is people spouting nonsense with NOTHING to back it up. People who say the game is dying or losing population…totally ridiculous. There are enough people playing (and paying) to keep the game going a long time. I know it because I see what I see. It’ll never have ten million players, but it’ll have more than enough to keep going. Those who think other wise can get back to me in a couple of years.

The point is, I do speak out about stuff. And I don’t answer every thread where someone has a legit complaint. What I do answer is people who insist in exaagerating or using hyperbole to try to prove a point. People who make stuff up…well, I’m perfectly happy to talk to them.

There are issues with this game, I never said otherwise. But that doesn’t mean Anet lied to people with the manifesto. It doesn’t mean that the game population is going down. It means it’s a new MMO.

And if you don’t like my posts, feel free not to read them.

I only came back to this thread just to see if it moved on lol but then i came across this post.

How do you know that the population is not going down? Are you able to provide statistics? or are you just basing it on what you “see”?

And as for losing even 1 paying customer… that can be a serious thing. You lose 2 then 3 and its starts to get worse. Don’t underestimate the value of 1 person because if you did not have one person to begin with, then, you’re not going anywhere.

I know that the group of people that I used to play with, are no longer playing (hence reduction in possible in-game purchases… already a loss the company). Now if others say their groups have stopped playing also, then yeah… you get the picture (or not)

You say people are spouting nonsense without any backup… well that’s what you just did in this post.

I’m not saying nonsense without any back up. Let’s look at all the facts.

Fact 1. Every single MMO loses people after the initial rush. People buy it and the game isn’t for some people and they go.

Fact 2. Every single MMO also has people who start playing it after launch. Not everyone buys it at launch.

Fact 3. Just about every MMO has people who leave and come back to see it later.

The equation goes something like this. If the number of new people are signing on and coming back are greater than the number of people who have left, the game’s population will go up.

I never said people aren’t leaving. Of course people are leaving. But people leaving an MMO are not necessarily an indication that the population is going down. It’s only an indication that the game doesn’t suit or appeal to a certain segment of the population.

Guild Wars 1 was the same way. Both my sons left Guild Wars 1 to go play WoW but Guild Wars 1, during that time, still had a rising population. The reason was that new people were finding the game, even as people who didn’t like it were leaving.

The fact is two MMOs have come out recently that didn’t do so well and both of them were forced to lay off staff (SWToR and TSW). This is an undeniable fact. It’s also a fact that Anet is currently hiring. If it laid off people we’d have heard about it.

Another fact is that servers were expanded. I know people say that Anet can say anything and they might be lying, but considering some people actually saw the population on all the servers go from high to medium at the same time lends support to the fact that Anet has had to expand how many people can be on each server.

You may not like these facts, and yes, some of them are circumstantial, but without layoffs, server mergers or any other evidence, it seems to me more reasonable to believe the game is doing well than the game is doing badly.

Edit: Not to mention we know the game is doing well from the NcSoft quarterly report which anyone can read if they wanted to. But it’s just faster to say it’s not doing well. One of us provided something besides anecdotal evidence.

Vayne.8563:

It’s also a fact that Anet is currently hiring. If it laid off people we’d have heard about it.

Not a known fact. The FACT is that they have hiring posts up. Not that they are actually hiring. Many companies having posts looking to hire people without hiring anyone to fill the post. In fact, that has been in the news. We do not know that they have filled any positions or that they have in fact hired anyone.

Another fact is that servers were expanded. I know people say that Anet can say anything and they might be lying, but considering some people actually saw the population on all the servers go from high to medium at the same time lends support to the fact that Anet has had to expand how many people can be on each server.

It is not a fact that making servers bigger is a result of needing more people to be active on the server, merely that more accounts can be on the server. It is a FACT that server size is account based not activity based.

Edit: Not to mention we know the game is doing well from the NcSoft quarterly report which anyone can read if they wanted to. But it’s just faster to say it’s not doing well. One of us provided something besides anecdotal evidence.

Evidence of the game selling well in the first full quarter after release is not an indication that the population is doing well.

See, this is how arguments work. You are entitled to your opinion that the game is doing well. However, there are counter arguments to all of the details you use to uphold your idea that your opinion is more valid than the opinion that the game is not doing well.

I am not saying that you opinion is wrong. I’m saying that your opinion is no more valid than the opinion that the game is doing poorly and that you “evidence” can easily be dismissed just as easily as you dismiss the evidence people use to say the game is doing poorly.

Why don’t we just wait and see instead of having this same conversation over and over and over again?

Actually one of my guildies has a daughter that just got a job with Anet. Unless she’s lying to me, which I suppose is possible, well, they’re hiring. And yes, I’m not making this up. Against all the odds, someone in my guild has told me their daughter got a job with Anet. I almost wish she didn’t because it sounds like something I invented.

All you’re doing it trying to refute reasonable believes by saying this may not be true, or this might not mean something. It’s still more evidence that something is true than not. You don’t want to see it, but most other people probably can.