Guild Wars 2

Let’s begin saying that what the unwashed masses understand by “end-game” and “leveling-process” are nothing more than words for a bad game design. Unfortunately, the commercial success of WoW (41% of the MMORPG market share) made that these concepts were taken as law by the illiterate gamers that had no clue of how things were in the pre-WoW era (WoW easyness, linear and hand-holding design dragged an unimaginative and arcade-fond audience that was alien to the original complexity of the genre and even to the pure RPG concept).

Anyway, GW2’s designers put it clear through their Manifesto and media statements that they wanted to break with this mold, making “all the game as end-game” and retaking the concept of a virtual, living world. In essence, it sounded as if GW2 was to be a themepark-sandbox crossover or, at least, an extremely unlinear themepark.

GW2’s designers made two fatal mistakes a/o design decission that buried the “all game is end-game” and “virtual, living world” concepts:

- They nerfed the difficulty in the betas, due to cries of the impatient, unskilled crowd (why do this people play MMORPGs is a mystery to me).

- They introduced “vertical progression” and “power creep” in november, (possibly) due to the pressure of the WoW brainwashed crowd a/o their mother company, EXON.

Having said this, it’s moment to give the OP a simple answer, as she/he deserves: dear OP, the current endgame (forsake this word!) of this game is a decaffeinated version of WoW’s, nothing new to be seen.

Personally, I’ve taken my lesson: I’m not touching a themepark never, ever again, no matter how they advert them as “free-form”, “not-linear”… At the end of the day all themeparks, by their very design, result in an over-simplistic, petty, mind-numbing experience, in accordance with the sort of mainstream clientele they use to drag.

Good news for the sandboxers and RPers who may want to join along the “resistance” and run away from this general tide of MMORPG stupidity: We have a handful of very promising, AAA titles in the horizon, one of them by CCP itself

Tusuri.3178:

Good news for the sandboxers and RPers who may want to join the “resistance” alongside and run away from this general tide of MMORPG stupidity: We have a handful of very promising, AAA titles in the horizon, one of them by CCP itself

Let’s not go this far already. GW2 is young and does not seem to have a clear direction, they got their feedback to this progression failure, so we’ll see what comes along.
If not, ArcheAge, Black Desert…

Amra.6028:

Let’s not go this far already. GW2 is young and does not seem to have a clear direction, they got their feedback to this progression failure, so we’ll see what comes along.
If not, ArcheAge, Black Desert…

The fact that I still read the forums every now and then proves that I’ve not lost all hope

The only MMORPG I have ever played that had an end game was Star Wars Galaxies. That was only because your professions were actual professions. I remember having a doctors office by the tuskan fort. I would sell buffs and heal wounds, and made a good fortune on it. I was well known on the server for it as well, just like certain musicians and dancers were well known for what they did. I also remember that if you wanted the best weapons this side of the galaxy, you shopped at Froxx’s.

Every game I’ve ever played other than that was just a grind out, and the only ‘end-game’ were expansions.

Daltonymous.7259:

if I may share an observation…

It seems that those who say that there is nothing to do, have tunnel-visioned their play experience, and once they master their aspect, or simply tire from it, they are off to the forums to complain about lack of content.

An example would be a dungeon raider who completes all dungeons and masters fractals until he is tired of it, and then asks for more dungeons or better fractals.

Or a pvp player who tires of sub-avarage players in hotjoin and is an established pro in tournaments, and is asking for ladders (a fair request, btw)

I don’t want to flame anyones opinion here, just offer one of my own…

I believe that the one who gets the biggest chunk of the enjoyment pie, is the humble player who tries everything, and aims to conquer everything. When he has run a fractal and wants to not grind anymore, he goes to the mists and plays some pvp.

mr OP, you havent wasted any money. You must drop the endgame philosophy (as I am not the first to point out) and try to get the biggest chunk of the pie that you can! If you do, you will have a blast!

happy hollidays!

It’s not that. To some people, exploration wasn’t the intended end-all of how to play this game. ANet’s idea was to instead of having an endgame, mix it in to the leveling process, so that you’re basically doing the same exact thing at 80 as you do at level 1… I think they overlooked the fact that people would actually be getting to level 80 and then suddenly your character progression is almost over. Now you get your BiS, get the skin you want, and then why bother even logging on anymore? You beat GW2.

tonyl.5063:

Daltonymous.7259:

if I may share an observation…

It seems that those who say that there is nothing to do, have tunnel-visioned their play experience, and once they master their aspect, or simply tire from it, they are off to the forums to complain about lack of content.

An example would be a dungeon raider who completes all dungeons and masters fractals until he is tired of it, and then asks for more dungeons or better fractals.

Or a pvp player who tires of sub-avarage players in hotjoin and is an established pro in tournaments, and is asking for ladders (a fair request, btw)

I don’t want to flame anyones opinion here, just offer one of my own…

I believe that the one who gets the biggest chunk of the enjoyment pie, is the humble player who tries everything, and aims to conquer everything. When he has run a fractal and wants to not grind anymore, he goes to the mists and plays some pvp.

mr OP, you havent wasted any money. You must drop the endgame philosophy (as I am not the first to point out) and try to get the biggest chunk of the pie that you can! If you do, you will have a blast!

happy hollidays!

It’s not that. To some people, exploration wasn’t the intended end-all of how to play this game. ANet’s idea was to instead of having an endgame, mix it in to the leveling process, so that you’re basically doing the same exact thing at 80 as you do at level 1… I think they overlooked the fact that people would actually be getting to level 80 and then suddenly your character progression is almost over. Now you get your BiS, get the skin you want, and then why bother even logging on anymore? You beat GW2.

While completely ignoring that they did or could have had most of the content they claim to be missing while leveling, the time they spent focused on their XP bar and just mashing keys to get to 80 faster.
Is it the game’s fault to be not as stupid and require players to repeat the same fetch and kill quests over and over again for weeks just to keep all relevant aspects of the game for max level?

I like the end game in GW2 much better than other games where it’s run the thing until you get enough gear to kill the thing. That’s not challenging at all.

Amra.6028:

tonyl.5063:

Daltonymous.7259:

if I may share an observation…

It seems that those who say that there is nothing to do, have tunnel-visioned their play experience, and once they master their aspect, or simply tire from it, they are off to the forums to complain about lack of content.

An example would be a dungeon raider who completes all dungeons and masters fractals until he is tired of it, and then asks for more dungeons or better fractals.

Or a pvp player who tires of sub-avarage players in hotjoin and is an established pro in tournaments, and is asking for ladders (a fair request, btw)

I don’t want to flame anyones opinion here, just offer one of my own…

I believe that the one who gets the biggest chunk of the enjoyment pie, is the humble player who tries everything, and aims to conquer everything. When he has run a fractal and wants to not grind anymore, he goes to the mists and plays some pvp.

mr OP, you havent wasted any money. You must drop the endgame philosophy (as I am not the first to point out) and try to get the biggest chunk of the pie that you can! If you do, you will have a blast!

happy hollidays!

It’s not that. To some people, exploration wasn’t the intended end-all of how to play this game. ANet’s idea was to instead of having an endgame, mix it in to the leveling process, so that you’re basically doing the same exact thing at 80 as you do at level 1… I think they overlooked the fact that people would actually be getting to level 80 and then suddenly your character progression is almost over. Now you get your BiS, get the skin you want, and then why bother even logging on anymore? You beat GW2.

While completely ignoring that they did or could have had most of the content they claim to be missing while leveling, the time they spent focused on their XP bar and just mashing keys to get to 80 faster.
Is it the game’s fault to be not as stupid and require players to repeat the same fetch and kill quests over and over again for weeks just to keep all relevant aspects of the game for max level?

No, but it’s the game’s fault that it has an actual lack of content and progression when you get to that level. Eventually everyone is going to hit 80, and then what? It doesn’t matter if it takes you a week or 2 years, what is the point of level 80? What is the reason to log on anymore? The probably would have accomplished more if there was just no level cap, that you can keep getting stronger and stronger, and scale things up to your level (like some other games have actually successfully done)…

But without endgame, a level cap is useless. All it does is end progression. Where is your character advancement beyond that point?

Braggo.7819:

Although i have had GW2 since the first beta i haven’t played much as i have a WoW subscription. Im looking to cancel WoW and using GW2 as my MMO and playing alot of other single player games.

What is the end game like here? from what i can see it is mainly PvP based as i havent heard of raids other than the world boss style of things.

Do you Queue for instances or is it finding your own group? as finding your own group sounds difficult.

Is the “lack of players” i heard about troubling or just people talking crap?

Finally i am mainly a pve player so does this game suit me or do i need to be a pvper?

sorry the the wall of text and questions.

You will not find any form of satisfying PvE endgame here. What you do at level one is waht you do at level 80. The story doesn’t get better, the gear doens’t get better.

If you enjoy WoW, you will not enjoy his game. It delivers none of the satisfaction and fun.

tonyl.5063:

No, but it’s the game’s fault that it has an actual lack of content and progression when you get to that level. Eventually everyone is going to hit 80, and then what? It doesn’t matter if it takes you a week or 2 years, what is the point of level 80? What is the reason to log on anymore? The probably would have accomplished more if there was just no level cap, that you can keep getting stronger and stronger, and scale things up to your level (like some other games have actually successfully done)…

But without endgame, a level cap is useless. All it does is end progression. Where is your character advancement beyond that point?

No, it’s the game’s fault you expect it to be like another game which it isn’t.
People like you wouldn’t have come far in games like SW:G, Mortal or Darkfall as those don’t feature treadmills and babbycare.
You don’t want to go dungeons, you don’t want to do fractals. no PVP, no Wv3 because of what? Lemme guess, because of “IMA NOT GET ME EPIXX DERRPP”.

Amra.6028:

tonyl.5063:

No, but it’s the game’s fault that it has an actual lack of content and progression when you get to that level. Eventually everyone is going to hit 80, and then what? It doesn’t matter if it takes you a week or 2 years, what is the point of level 80? What is the reason to log on anymore? The probably would have accomplished more if there was just no level cap, that you can keep getting stronger and stronger, and scale things up to your level (like some other games have actually successfully done)…

But without endgame, a level cap is useless. All it does is end progression. Where is your character advancement beyond that point?

No, it’s the game’s fault you expect it to be like another game which it isn’t.
People like you wouldn’t have come far in games like SW:G, Mortal or Darkfall as those don’t feature treadmills and babbycare.
You don’t want to go dungeons, you don’t want to do fractals. no PVP, no Wv3 because of what? Lemme guess, because of “IMA NOT GET ME EPIXX DERRPP”.

No kitten I don’t want a point where any meaningful progression stops. I don’t want it to be possible to “beat” the game and literally run out of stuff to do. That’s how GW2 is designed right now. What point is there to level 80? What do we gain by being level 80 and not being able to level to 81? But hey, maybe if ArenaNet actually described the game better than they did, this would have never been an issue. They marketed the game as a game where the entire game plays like end-game in most MMOs, when in reality, endgame plays like leveling.

I bought a game that was going to be challenging from right when I created my first character, not a game where getting to level 80 just means keep doing the same thing with nothing really meaningful to work towards.

tonyl.5063:

No kitten I don’t want a point where any meaningful progression stops. I don’t want it to be possible to “beat” the game and literally run out of stuff to do. That’s how GW2 is designed right now. What point is there to level 80? What do we gain by being level 80 and not being able to level to 81? But hey, maybe if ArenaNet actually described the game better than they did, this would have never been an issue. They marketed the game as a game where the entire game plays like end-game in most MMOs, when in reality, endgame plays like leveling.

I bought a game that was going to be challenging from right when I created my first character, not a game where getting to level 80 just means keep doing the same thing with nothing really meaningful to work towards.

What point is there in watching a movie, what point is there in reading books, why go to work, why do you live if all you get is death at the end? Silly questions.
What you get when leveling is exploration, questing, you keep getting skill points to spend and you do dungeons and PVP/WvW. That’s exactly what you do after you hit max level, so you do the same thing. All game is end game, that’s exactly what they told and what you get.
If you expected a silly powergrind where you’ll always get levels that don’t mean anything but a counter on how much time you spent, I guess you need to go see a doctor.

Problem is that everything is so easy and rewards are crap. I can’t figure out why dragons are like one big joke. Why every server should kill dragon? Make them so hard that killing them would be epic, need some serious tactics and rewards should be something really awesome. When dragon spawn server every top guild should be there to kill it and even then it would be almost impossible. Same with orr temples. Too easy and reward is always something crap. This game lacks challenge and loot tables are too short. There should be huge amount awesome looking skins which drop rate would be like 1/10k or something. This would give me motivation actually go do some PvE.

There is no real end game at all, except if you count Fractals which pretty much killed all other PvE aspects to the game. I wouldn’t exactly call this game an MMO either. It’s more of an RPG with a multi-player option and group PvP. Even PvP as of late isn’t all that great. sPvP is losing people fast and WvW is pretty much a zerg fest with no real reward for holding anything.

The only thing this game has that is the same is the grind. If you love that part of a game, you’ll love this one.

Arena Net’s current PVE endgame is designed around the lowest common denominator. The end game is brain dead easy. You could be mentally challenged, slam your hand on a one button mouse and be successful.

Calae.1738:

Arena Net’s current PVE endgame is designed around the lowest common denominator. The end game is brain dead easy. You could be mentally challenged, slam your hand on a one button mouse and be successful.

I don’t imagine there’s too many people that got their Dungeon Master achievement with this method

Amra.6028:

tonyl.5063:

No kitten I don’t want a point where any meaningful progression stops. I don’t want it to be possible to “beat” the game and literally run out of stuff to do. That’s how GW2 is designed right now. What point is there to level 80? What do we gain by being level 80 and not being able to level to 81? But hey, maybe if ArenaNet actually described the game better than they did, this would have never been an issue. They marketed the game as a game where the entire game plays like end-game in most MMOs, when in reality, endgame plays like leveling.

I bought a game that was going to be challenging from right when I created my first character, not a game where getting to level 80 just means keep doing the same thing with nothing really meaningful to work towards.

What point is there in watching a movie, what point is there in reading books, why go to work, why do you live if all you get is death at the end? Silly questions.
What you get when leveling is exploration, questing, you keep getting skill points to spend and you do dungeons and PVP/WvW. That’s exactly what you do after you hit max level, so you do the same thing. All game is end game, that’s exactly what they told and what you get.
If you expected a silly powergrind where you’ll always get levels that don’t mean anything but a counter on how much time you spent, I guess you need to go see a doctor.

Why do i go to work? For the paycheck ofc. We need rewards and not a game that stops a week after you hit 80.
Dont get me wrong , the mechanics are actually good, BUT you are more or less not going to play a singleplayer game forever, due to GAMEPLAY getting duller over time.
You may call everyone that wants goals apart from cosmetics, a WoWkid , but i at the same time feel that your kind of GW2’ers are like major Apple fans.
It doesnt matter if Apple is right, or makes te right product or whatever, just aslong as its an Apple and it has their “vision” inbedded in the context.

On the otherhand, since you have grasped the “fun-factors” am having a bit trouble finding, please tell me what to do if am not an achivement-"w**** and gameplay ( allthough still good) not as exciting as it was a few months ago??

Zookeeper.2513:

There is no real end game at all, except if you count Fractals which pretty much killed all other PvE aspects to the game. I wouldn’t exactly call this game an MMO either. It’s more of an RPG with a multi-player option and group PvP. Even PvP as of late isn’t all that great. sPvP is losing people fast and WvW is pretty much a zerg fest with no real reward for holding anything.

The only thing this game has that is the same is the grind. If you love that part of a game, you’ll love this one.

Bolded the important part of this statement for emphasis. GW2 isn’t an MMO, hence why Arenanet won’t add any true endgame content. The even admitted that GW2 isn’t an MMO awhile back. True endgame is raiding and meaningful structured PVP.

Grinding the same 8 buggy dungeons is not endgame. Exploration is not endgame. Beating on a door for twenty minutes is not endgame. These are facts, not opinions.

Karizee.8076:

Calae.1738:

Arena Net’s current PVE endgame is designed around the lowest common denominator. The end game is brain dead easy. You could be mentally challenged, slam your hand on a one button mouse and be successful.

I don’t imagine there’s too many people that got their Dungeon Master achievement with this method

Only boss that requires you to pay attention is Simin in Arah path 4 because of the stupidly high DPS requirement. Other than her I snored my way through that achievement.

Amra.6028:

tonyl.5063:

No kitten I don’t want a point where any meaningful progression stops. I don’t want it to be possible to “beat” the game and literally run out of stuff to do. That’s how GW2 is designed right now. What point is there to level 80? What do we gain by being level 80 and not being able to level to 81? But hey, maybe if ArenaNet actually described the game better than they did, this would have never been an issue. They marketed the game as a game where the entire game plays like end-game in most MMOs, when in reality, endgame plays like leveling.

I bought a game that was going to be challenging from right when I created my first character, not a game where getting to level 80 just means keep doing the same thing with nothing really meaningful to work towards.

What point is there in watching a movie, what point is there in reading books, why go to work, why do you live if all you get is death at the end? Silly questions.
What you get when leveling is exploration, questing, you keep getting skill points to spend and you do dungeons and PVP/WvW. That’s exactly what you do after you hit max level, so you do the same thing. All game is end game, that’s exactly what they told and what you get.
If you expected a silly powergrind where you’ll always get levels that don’t mean anything but a counter on how much time you spent, I guess you need to go see a doctor.

You’re just not getting it. You can finish exploring the world. You can do every heart and jump puzzle. You can actually run out of content to work on. That’s a death sentence in group based games. Everyone playing relies on other people having something to work towards.

Actual endgame content has to exist, you nee to still have goals at the level cap. This game was marketed as an MMO, so it needs to be treated as one. What you want is basically multiplayer skyrim, while we want stuff you do as a group of people with a common goal, something to work towards with a sense of accomplishment at the end… Unless the idea really was that you can beat the game and then you’re done.

I am like you I have several subscriptions going with other game providers. And the way I see it I will keep my other subscriptions. You are going to get reply’s from everywhere and everyone plays different and have different ideas on how to play.. Myself I see GW2 as a game attempting to use the original success of the GW1 series to get another number one in gaming for a year or two.. I am seeing not as many playing most of the maps are dead unless you got a team hoping from map to map to do a champ that has a decent chest. Or they are doing the dungones for the armor/cash.. Also you wont make the in game cash here like you would in other games. But go figure GW1 was the same way in that department though. MY advice dont burn your bridges yet until you test the waters here for 12 weeks that will give you a better idea.. I would give you a idea of a few other gr8 platforms to play but it might get the post locked up.

tonyl.5063:

Amra.6028:

tonyl.5063:

No kitten I don’t want a point where any meaningful progression stops. I don’t want it to be possible to “beat” the game and literally run out of stuff to do. That’s how GW2 is designed right now. What point is there to level 80? What do we gain by being level 80 and not being able to level to 81? But hey, maybe if ArenaNet actually described the game better than they did, this would have never been an issue. They marketed the game as a game where the entire game plays like end-game in most MMOs, when in reality, endgame plays like leveling.

I bought a game that was going to be challenging from right when I created my first character, not a game where getting to level 80 just means keep doing the same thing with nothing really meaningful to work towards.

What point is there in watching a movie, what point is there in reading books, why go to work, why do you live if all you get is death at the end? Silly questions.
What you get when leveling is exploration, questing, you keep getting skill points to spend and you do dungeons and PVP/WvW. That’s exactly what you do after you hit max level, so you do the same thing. All game is end game, that’s exactly what they told and what you get.
If you expected a silly powergrind where you’ll always get levels that don’t mean anything but a counter on how much time you spent, I guess you need to go see a doctor.

You’re just not getting it. You can finish exploring the world. You can do every heart and jump puzzle. You can actually run out of content to work on. That’s a death sentence in group based games. Everyone playing relies on other people having something to work towards.

Actual endgame content has to exist, you nee to still have goals at the level cap. This game was marketed as an MMO, so it needs to be treated as one. What you want is basically multiplayer skyrim, while we want stuff you do as a group of people with a common goal, something to work towards with a sense of accomplishment at the end… Unless the idea really was that you can beat the game and then you’re done.

It sounds like you are talking about raids. But what happens when you beat the raid in that other game? Most of it is cheap easy these days.

Karizee.8076:

tonyl.5063:

Amra.6028:

tonyl.5063:

No kitten I don’t want a point where any meaningful progression stops. I don’t want it to be possible to “beat” the game and literally run out of stuff to do. That’s how GW2 is designed right now. What point is there to level 80? What do we gain by being level 80 and not being able to level to 81? But hey, maybe if ArenaNet actually described the game better than they did, this would have never been an issue. They marketed the game as a game where the entire game plays like end-game in most MMOs, when in reality, endgame plays like leveling.

I bought a game that was going to be challenging from right when I created my first character, not a game where getting to level 80 just means keep doing the same thing with nothing really meaningful to work towards.

What point is there in watching a movie, what point is there in reading books, why go to work, why do you live if all you get is death at the end? Silly questions.
What you get when leveling is exploration, questing, you keep getting skill points to spend and you do dungeons and PVP/WvW. That’s exactly what you do after you hit max level, so you do the same thing. All game is end game, that’s exactly what they told and what you get.
If you expected a silly powergrind where you’ll always get levels that don’t mean anything but a counter on how much time you spent, I guess you need to go see a doctor.

You’re just not getting it. You can finish exploring the world. You can do every heart and jump puzzle. You can actually run out of content to work on. That’s a death sentence in group based games. Everyone playing relies on other people having something to work towards.

Actual endgame content has to exist, you nee to still have goals at the level cap. This game was marketed as an MMO, so it needs to be treated as one. What you want is basically multiplayer skyrim, while we want stuff you do as a group of people with a common goal, something to work towards with a sense of accomplishment at the end… Unless the idea really was that you can beat the game and then you’re done.

It sounds like you are talking about raids. But what happens when you beat the raid in that other game? Most of it is cheap easy these days.

Raids have a replay value, you farm the gear. Jump puzzles, uncovering the map, doing hearts, and getting skill points don’t have a replay value. With no replay value, people stop doing it, when people stop doing it, people stop playing.

It doesn’t have to only be raids, that’s not the only form of endgame. The idea is to have LONG TERM GOALS, something they left out of the game when they went way too extreme towards the “no grind” idea. There’s just no reason to need to ever log on.

tonyl.5063:

Karizee.8076:

tonyl.5063:

Amra.6028:

tonyl.5063:

No kitten I don’t want a point where any meaningful progression stops. I don’t want it to be possible to “beat” the game and literally run out of stuff to do. That’s how GW2 is designed right now. What point is there to level 80? What do we gain by being level 80 and not being able to level to 81? But hey, maybe if ArenaNet actually described the game better than they did, this would have never been an issue. They marketed the game as a game where the entire game plays like end-game in most MMOs, when in reality, endgame plays like leveling.

I bought a game that was going to be challenging from right when I created my first character, not a game where getting to level 80 just means keep doing the same thing with nothing really meaningful to work towards.

What point is there in watching a movie, what point is there in reading books, why go to work, why do you live if all you get is death at the end? Silly questions.
What you get when leveling is exploration, questing, you keep getting skill points to spend and you do dungeons and PVP/WvW. That’s exactly what you do after you hit max level, so you do the same thing. All game is end game, that’s exactly what they told and what you get.
If you expected a silly powergrind where you’ll always get levels that don’t mean anything but a counter on how much time you spent, I guess you need to go see a doctor.

You’re just not getting it. You can finish exploring the world. You can do every heart and jump puzzle. You can actually run out of content to work on. That’s a death sentence in group based games. Everyone playing relies on other people having something to work towards.

Actual endgame content has to exist, you nee to still have goals at the level cap. This game was marketed as an MMO, so it needs to be treated as one. What you want is basically multiplayer skyrim, while we want stuff you do as a group of people with a common goal, something to work towards with a sense of accomplishment at the end… Unless the idea really was that you can beat the game and then you’re done.

It sounds like you are talking about raids. But what happens when you beat the raid in that other game? Most of it is cheap easy these days.

Raids have a replay value, you farm the gear. Jump puzzles, uncovering the map, doing hearts, and getting skill points don’t have a replay value. With no replay value, people stop doing it, when people stop doing it, people stop playing.

It doesn’t have to only be raids, that’s not the only form of endgame. The idea is to have LONG TERM GOALS, something they left out of the game when they went way too extreme towards the “no grind” idea. There’s just no reason to need to ever log on.

Dungeons have replay value too. You farm the gear also. Working on my TA set now

For long term goals you can make a legendary.

Then we have new content coming every month. End game looks pretty good to me compared to other MMOs.

Karizee.8076:

tonyl.5063:

Amra.6028:

tonyl.5063:

No kitten I don’t want a point where any meaningful progression stops. I don’t want it to be possible to “beat” the game and literally run out of stuff to do. That’s how GW2 is designed right now. What point is there to level 80? What do we gain by being level 80 and not being able to level to 81? But hey, maybe if ArenaNet actually described the game better than they did, this would have never been an issue. They marketed the game as a game where the entire game plays like end-game in most MMOs, when in reality, endgame plays like leveling.

I bought a game that was going to be challenging from right when I created my first character, not a game where getting to level 80 just means keep doing the same thing with nothing really meaningful to work towards.

What point is there in watching a movie, what point is there in reading books, why go to work, why do you live if all you get is death at the end? Silly questions.
What you get when leveling is exploration, questing, you keep getting skill points to spend and you do dungeons and PVP/WvW. That’s exactly what you do after you hit max level, so you do the same thing. All game is end game, that’s exactly what they told and what you get.
If you expected a silly powergrind where you’ll always get levels that don’t mean anything but a counter on how much time you spent, I guess you need to go see a doctor.

You’re just not getting it. You can finish exploring the world. You can do every heart and jump puzzle. You can actually run out of content to work on. That’s a death sentence in group based games. Everyone playing relies on other people having something to work towards.

Actual endgame content has to exist, you nee to still have goals at the level cap. This game was marketed as an MMO, so it needs to be treated as one. What you want is basically multiplayer skyrim, while we want stuff you do as a group of people with a common goal, something to work towards with a sense of accomplishment at the end… Unless the idea really was that you can beat the game and then you’re done.

It sounds like you are talking about raids. But what happens when you beat the raid in that other game? Most of it is cheap easy these days.

In WoW after you beat the raids there’s achievements for beating each boss a specific way and a meta-achievement for total dungeon completion that give unique rewards. There also bosses that drop better loot based on beating the fight in different ways, like killing a council style boss in an order that makes the fight harder. To say it’s not worth going back just because the content is outdated or “beaten” is incredibly short sighted.

Compare GW2. There’s one way to beat each boss, and 99% of the time it’s “dodge the attack.” There’s so few bosses in this game that actually have strategies outside this method that it’s not worth mentioning. No, the “press 2 to win” strategy on Zhaitan does not count since that’s bad design, not an interesting strategy.

Dungeons have replay value too. You farm the gear also. Working on my TA set now

For long term goals you can make a legendary.

Then we have new content coming every month. End game looks pretty good to me compared to other MMOs.

You grind for gear in WoW raids and dungeons too. They also reward you for completing achievements as I said up above. So far WoW dungeons offer you far more than GW2 dungeons.

Also, new content? Lost Shores was a joke. I have no doubt that January and February’s patches will be equally lousy additions to GW2’s so called “endgame.”

They recently added a ton of achievements. I imagine they will add more as time goes on

Vasham.2408:

Karizee.8076:

tonyl.5063:

Amra.6028:

tonyl.5063:

No kitten I don’t want a point where any meaningful progression stops. I don’t want it to be possible to “beat” the game and literally run out of stuff to do. That’s how GW2 is designed right now. What point is there to level 80? What do we gain by being level 80 and not being able to level to 81? But hey, maybe if ArenaNet actually described the game better than they did, this would have never been an issue. They marketed the game as a game where the entire game plays like end-game in most MMOs, when in reality, endgame plays like leveling.

I bought a game that was going to be challenging from right when I created my first character, not a game where getting to level 80 just means keep doing the same thing with nothing really meaningful to work towards.

What point is there in watching a movie, what point is there in reading books, why go to work, why do you live if all you get is death at the end? Silly questions.
What you get when leveling is exploration, questing, you keep getting skill points to spend and you do dungeons and PVP/WvW. That’s exactly what you do after you hit max level, so you do the same thing. All game is end game, that’s exactly what they told and what you get.
If you expected a silly powergrind where you’ll always get levels that don’t mean anything but a counter on how much time you spent, I guess you need to go see a doctor.

You’re just not getting it. You can finish exploring the world. You can do every heart and jump puzzle. You can actually run out of content to work on. That’s a death sentence in group based games. Everyone playing relies on other people having something to work towards.

Actual endgame content has to exist, you nee to still have goals at the level cap. This game was marketed as an MMO, so it needs to be treated as one. What you want is basically multiplayer skyrim, while we want stuff you do as a group of people with a common goal, something to work towards with a sense of accomplishment at the end… Unless the idea really was that you can beat the game and then you’re done.

It sounds like you are talking about raids. But what happens when you beat the raid in that other game? Most of it is cheap easy these days.

In WoW after you beat the raids there’s achievements for beating each boss a specific way and a meta-achievement for total dungeon completion that give unique rewards. They’re also bosses that drop better loot based on beating the fight in different ways, like killing a council style boss in an order that makes the fight harder. To say it’s not worth going back just because the content is outdated or “beaten” is incredibly short sighted.

Compare GW2. There’s one way to beat each boss, and 99% of the time it’s “dodge the attack.” There’s so few bosses in this game that actually have strategies outside this method that it’s not worth mentioning. No, the “press 2 to win” strategy on Zhaitan does not count since that’s bad design, not an interesting strategy.

Dungeons have replay value too. You farm the gear also. Working on my TA set now

For long term goals you can make a legendary.

Then we have new content coming every month. End game looks pretty good to me compared to other MMOs.

You grind for gear in WoW raids and dungeons too. They also reward you for completing achievements as I said up above. So far WoW dungeons offer you far more than GW2 dungeons.

Also, new content? Lost Shores was a joke. I have no doubt that January and February’s patches will be equally lousy additions to GW2’s so called “endgame.”

WoW dungeons are brain-dead easy unlike GW2 dungeons which require skill. But it sounds like you really want to play WoW. Here’s a hint, 95% of the people here want to play GW2. You are recruiting on the wrong forums.

Karizee.8076:

Vasham.2408:

Karizee.8076:

tonyl.5063:

Amra.6028:

tonyl.5063:

No kitten I don’t want a point where any meaningful progression stops. I don’t want it to be possible to “beat” the game and literally run out of stuff to do. That’s how GW2 is designed right now. What point is there to level 80? What do we gain by being level 80 and not being able to level to 81? But hey, maybe if ArenaNet actually described the game better than they did, this would have never been an issue. They marketed the game as a game where the entire game plays like end-game in most MMOs, when in reality, endgame plays like leveling.

I bought a game that was going to be challenging from right when I created my first character, not a game where getting to level 80 just means keep doing the same thing with nothing really meaningful to work towards.

What point is there in watching a movie, what point is there in reading books, why go to work, why do you live if all you get is death at the end? Silly questions.
What you get when leveling is exploration, questing, you keep getting skill points to spend and you do dungeons and PVP/WvW. That’s exactly what you do after you hit max level, so you do the same thing. All game is end game, that’s exactly what they told and what you get.
If you expected a silly powergrind where you’ll always get levels that don’t mean anything but a counter on how much time you spent, I guess you need to go see a doctor.

You’re just not getting it. You can finish exploring the world. You can do every heart and jump puzzle. You can actually run out of content to work on. That’s a death sentence in group based games. Everyone playing relies on other people having something to work towards.

Actual endgame content has to exist, you nee to still have goals at the level cap. This game was marketed as an MMO, so it needs to be treated as one. What you want is basically multiplayer skyrim, while we want stuff you do as a group of people with a common goal, something to work towards with a sense of accomplishment at the end… Unless the idea really was that you can beat the game and then you’re done.

It sounds like you are talking about raids. But what happens when you beat the raid in that other game? Most of it is cheap easy these days.

In WoW after you beat the raids there’s achievements for beating each boss a specific way and a meta-achievement for total dungeon completion that give unique rewards. They’re also bosses that drop better loot based on beating the fight in different ways, like killing a council style boss in an order that makes the fight harder. To say it’s not worth going back just because the content is outdated or “beaten” is incredibly short sighted.

Compare GW2. There’s one way to beat each boss, and 99% of the time it’s “dodge the attack.” There’s so few bosses in this game that actually have strategies outside this method that it’s not worth mentioning. No, the “press 2 to win” strategy on Zhaitan does not count since that’s bad design, not an interesting strategy.

Dungeons have replay value too. You farm the gear also. Working on my TA set now

For long term goals you can make a legendary.

Then we have new content coming every month. End game looks pretty good to me compared to other MMOs.

You grind for gear in WoW raids and dungeons too. They also reward you for completing achievements as I said up above. So far WoW dungeons offer you far more than GW2 dungeons.

Also, new content? Lost Shores was a joke. I have no doubt that January and February’s patches will be equally lousy additions to GW2’s so called “endgame.”

WoW dungeons are brain-dead easy unlike GW2 dungeons which require skill. But it sounds like you really want to play WoW. Here’s a hint, 95% of the people here want to play GW2. You are recruiting on the wrong forums.

I’m not recruiting anyone. I’m making fair comparisons between a poorly made newcomer in the MMO market to the industry standard. Just because the truth is hard for you to swallow doesn’t mean it’s any less true.

Also, don’t even try to say GW2’s dungeons are difficult in any true fashion. There’s plenty of fake difficulty with mob HP pools being stupidly high, buggy encounters and mechanics, and loads of trash mobs, but there’s no true challenge. I would ask you to run a heroic raid in or challege mode dungeon in WoW before spouting uninformed opinions.

Vasham.2408:

Karizee.8076:

Vasham.2408:

Karizee.8076:

tonyl.5063:

Amra.6028:

tonyl.5063:

No kitten I don’t want a point where any meaningful progression stops. I don’t want it to be possible to “beat” the game and literally run out of stuff to do. That’s how GW2 is designed right now. What point is there to level 80? What do we gain by being level 80 and not being able to level to 81? But hey, maybe if ArenaNet actually described the game better than they did, this would have never been an issue. They marketed the game as a game where the entire game plays like end-game in most MMOs, when in reality, endgame plays like leveling.

I bought a game that was going to be challenging from right when I created my first character, not a game where getting to level 80 just means keep doing the same thing with nothing really meaningful to work towards.

What point is there in watching a movie, what point is there in reading books, why go to work, why do you live if all you get is death at the end? Silly questions.
What you get when leveling is exploration, questing, you keep getting skill points to spend and you do dungeons and PVP/WvW. That’s exactly what you do after you hit max level, so you do the same thing. All game is end game, that’s exactly what they told and what you get.
If you expected a silly powergrind where you’ll always get levels that don’t mean anything but a counter on how much time you spent, I guess you need to go see a doctor.

You’re just not getting it. You can finish exploring the world. You can do every heart and jump puzzle. You can actually run out of content to work on. That’s a death sentence in group based games. Everyone playing relies on other people having something to work towards.

Actual endgame content has to exist, you nee to still have goals at the level cap. This game was marketed as an MMO, so it needs to be treated as one. What you want is basically multiplayer skyrim, while we want stuff you do as a group of people with a common goal, something to work towards with a sense of accomplishment at the end… Unless the idea really was that you can beat the game and then you’re done.

It sounds like you are talking about raids. But what happens when you beat the raid in that other game? Most of it is cheap easy these days.

In WoW after you beat the raids there’s achievements for beating each boss a specific way and a meta-achievement for total dungeon completion that give unique rewards. They’re also bosses that drop better loot based on beating the fight in different ways, like killing a council style boss in an order that makes the fight harder. To say it’s not worth going back just because the content is outdated or “beaten” is incredibly short sighted.

Compare GW2. There’s one way to beat each boss, and 99% of the time it’s “dodge the attack.” There’s so few bosses in this game that actually have strategies outside this method that it’s not worth mentioning. No, the “press 2 to win” strategy on Zhaitan does not count since that’s bad design, not an interesting strategy.

Dungeons have replay value too. You farm the gear also. Working on my TA set now

For long term goals you can make a legendary.

Then we have new content coming every month. End game looks pretty good to me compared to other MMOs.

You grind for gear in WoW raids and dungeons too. They also reward you for completing achievements as I said up above. So far WoW dungeons offer you far more than GW2 dungeons.

Also, new content? Lost Shores was a joke. I have no doubt that January and February’s patches will be equally lousy additions to GW2’s so called “endgame.”

WoW dungeons are brain-dead easy unlike GW2 dungeons which require skill. But it sounds like you really want to play WoW. Here’s a hint, 95% of the people here want to play GW2. You are recruiting on the wrong forums.

I’m not recruiting anyone. I’m making fair comparisons between a poorly made newcomer in the MMO market to the industry standard. Just because the truth is hard for you to swallow doesn’t mean it’s any less true.

Also, don’t even try to say GW2’s dungeons are difficult in any true fashion. There’s plenty of fake difficulty with mob HP pools being stupidly high, buggy encounters and mechanics, and loads of trash mobs, but there’s no true challenge. I would ask you to run a heroic raid in or challege mode dungeon in WoW before spouting uninformed opinions.

As of right now only 8000 guilds have done a heroic boss in a WoW raid. Thats less than 2% of their playerbase.

Seems like you are the one being shortsighted in not understanding that ANet made a brilliant decision not to go after that market

Vasham.2408:

SNIP

WoW certainly got the difficulty right with its raids and heroics. Ive had many an enjoyable night facing bosses with interesting mechanics. I dont think you’ll find anything in GW2 that even comes close to the complexity of say Mimiron. Guild Wars really needs to look at boss mechanics and add some form of raiding.

Doesnt mean you need to take away from the other aspects of the game just add something for the endgame raider to take part in with his / her guild.

Karizee, this game doesnt need to focus on raiders and soley support that market. It simply needs to offer something for those players to do in the current game and you add more players. Also heroic raids were only meant to be beaten by a few. Most of em had normal versions too and there were only a small amount that didnt. Many more did those raids and enjoyed them.

Ubung.7423:

Vasham.2408:

SNIP

WoW certainly got the difficulty right with its raids and heroics. Ive had many an enjoyable night facing bosses with interesting mechanics. I dont think you’ll find anything in GW2 that even comes close to the complexity of say Mimiron. Guild Wars really needs to look at boss mechanics and add some form of raiding.

Doesnt mean you need to take away from the other aspects of the game just add something for the endgame raider to take part in with his / her guild.

Karizee, this game doesnt need to focus on raiders and soley support that market. It simply needs to offer something for those players to do in the current game and you add more players. Also heroic raids were only meant to be beaten by a few. Most of em had normal versions too and there were only a small amount that didnt. Many more did those raids and enjoyed them.

Even their normal raids only has 5% of the playerbase participating. Raiding is really a dead concept.

GW2 has the large outdoor events for the “epic feel” and the escalating difficulty of Fractals for players that want to test their skills in a team environment.

Karizee.8076:

Ubung.7423:

Vasham.2408:

SNIP

WoW certainly got the difficulty right with its raids and heroics. Ive had many an enjoyable night facing bosses with interesting mechanics. I dont think you’ll find anything in GW2 that even comes close to the complexity of say Mimiron. Guild Wars really needs to look at boss mechanics and add some form of raiding.

Doesnt mean you need to take away from the other aspects of the game just add something for the endgame raider to take part in with his / her guild.

Karizee, this game doesnt need to focus on raiders and soley support that market. It simply needs to offer something for those players to do in the current game and you add more players. Also heroic raids were only meant to be beaten by a few. Most of em had normal versions too and there were only a small amount that didnt. Many more did those raids and enjoyed them.

Even their normal raids only has 5% of the playerbase participating. Raiding is really a dead concept.

GW2 has the large outdoor events for the “epic feel” and the escalating difficulty of Fractals for players that want to test their skills in a team environment.

Ok id like to know where you get your numbers because that seems very low and tbh I think its from a very very old ghostcrawler quote. Here is some data from 2011 that shows 31% of people beating Baleroc heroic the 2nd to last boss in Firelands.

Your statement only holds true for the last boss heroic Ragnaros with 2.2% of players having beaten him. Even then it shows enough people trying and succeding at raiding. Certainly enough to add some raiding into the game while not being the whole focus of the game.

Ubung.7423:

Ok id like to know where you get your numbers

There ya go!

http://www.wowprogress.com/

34,876 guilds beat one boss in MoP. Just one boss – not the last boss, the first boss.

34,332 were 10 man guilds. That’s 343,332.
2,823 were 25 man guilds. There’s 70,575.

For a grand total of 413,907 players.

They have a 10 million playerbase, that’s 4%. I rounded up to 5% to account for bench players.

Karizee.8076:

Ubung.7423:

Ok id like to know where you get your numbers

There ya go!

http://www.wowprogress.com/

34,876 guilds beat one boss in MoP. Just one boss – not the last boss, the first boss.

34,332 were 10 man guilds. That’s 343,332.
2,823 were 25 man guilds. There’s 70,575.

For a grand total of 413,907 players.

They have a 10 million playerbase, that’s 4%. I rounded up to 5% to account for bench players.

I’m just going to be blunt. You don’t know how statistics and data work. This website also does not track raid finder, which is designed for players without guilds and casual players.

This doesn’t change the facts though. GW2 has no endgame. Period. End of story.

Vasham.2408:

Karizee.8076:

Ubung.7423:

Ok id like to know where you get your numbers

There ya go!

http://www.wowprogress.com/

34,876 guilds beat one boss in MoP. Just one boss – not the last boss, the first boss.

34,332 were 10 man guilds. That’s 343,332.
2,823 were 25 man guilds. There’s 70,575.

For a grand total of 413,907 players.

They have a 10 million playerbase, that’s 4%. I rounded up to 5% to account for bench players.

I’m just going to be blunt. You don’t know how statistics and data work. This website also does not track raid finder, which is designed for players without guilds and casual players.

This doesn’t change the facts though. GW2 has no endgame. Period. End of story.

Raid finder? The equivalent to raid finder would be the epic outdoor events in GW2 like the dragon encounters and Corrupted God Temple events. Perfect for the casual or unguilded person

There is plenty of endgame in GW2.

Dungeons – collect all dungeon sets, get Dungeon Master achievement
Fractals – see how high you can go, get Ascended gear
Level all crafting disciplines, you can learn all 8 on one character
Mini pets – collect them all
Achievements
Titles
Build a legendary weapon
Jumping Puzzles
WvW – join your server’s Teamspeak, help your server win!
sPvP & tPvP
Exploring, finding/triggering obscure events, open all mini-dungeons
Find and collect all the toys and shapeshifter items in game
Organize or join a raid to take the Temple of Lyssa in Malchor’s Leap or any of the other Corrupted God Temples.
Get a couple friends and try to control the Jump puzzle in Eternal Battlegrounds (I’ve spent many a fine evening doing that, fun skirmishes & mesmer portal play)

Not really sure what you are looking for. Sounds like you just want to advertise for WoW on the GW2 forums.

Endgame? What endgame? I always thought the current storyline is just episode 1, like ‘Fellowship of the Ring’ to the whole Lord of the Ring storyline. The current so called ‘ending’ (I prefer to call it ‘season finale’) foretells there are other elder dragons (at least 4. I seriously hoped for Bubbles to be the official fifth) being queued for our motley band aka Destiny’s Edge to take down one by one.

Can’t wait to take down the next in line, hinting strongly to be Jormag the Unpunctual.

Karizee.8076:

Vasham.2408:

Karizee.8076:

Ubung.7423:

Ok id like to know where you get your numbers

There ya go!

http://www.wowprogress.com/

34,876 guilds beat one boss in MoP. Just one boss – not the last boss, the first boss.

34,332 were 10 man guilds. That’s 343,332.
2,823 were 25 man guilds. There’s 70,575.

For a grand total of 413,907 players.

They have a 10 million playerbase, that’s 4%. I rounded up to 5% to account for bench players.

I’m just going to be blunt. You don’t know how statistics and data work. This website also does not track raid finder, which is designed for players without guilds and casual players.

This doesn’t change the facts though. GW2 has no endgame. Period. End of story.

Raid finder? The equivalent to raid finder would be the epic outdoor events in GW2 like the dragon encounters and Corrupted God Temple events. Perfect for the casual or unguilded person

There is plenty of endgame in GW2.

Dungeons – collect all dungeon sets, get Dungeon Master achievement
Fractals – see how high you can go, get Ascended gear
Level all crafting disciplines, you can learn all 8 on one character
Mini pets – collect them all
Achievements
Titles
Build a legendary weapon
Jumping Puzzles
WvW – join your server’s Teamspeak, help your server win!
sPvP & tPvP
Exploring, finding/triggering obscure events, open all mini-dungeons
Find and collect all the toys and shapeshifter items in game
Organize or join a raid to take the Temple of Lyssa in Malchor’s Leap or any of the other Corrupted God Temples.
Get a couple friends and try to control the Jump puzzle in Eternal Battlegrounds (I’ve spent many a fine evening doing that, fun skirmishes & mesmer portal play)

Not really sure what you are looking for. Sounds like you just want to advertise for WoW on the GW2 forums.

Stationary dragons and poorly designed Risen Priests are not endgame, they’re overgrown quest mobs. Raid Finder, for all the flak it gets in WoW as easy mode, is harder than any world event boss in GW2 by a long shot. WoW also has world bosses, and in an upcoming patch anyone can join in at any time to get loot (good loot, I’ll add, unlike the Chest of Blues you get here) with the only stipulation being it’s been tagged by your faction.

Now, let’s take apart your list.

Dungeons – This counts as endgame, but they’re buggy and badly designed.
Fractals – Also endgame, but as before buggy and badly designed.
Level all crafting disciplines, you can learn all 8 on one character – Not endgame
Mini pets – Also not endgame
Achievements – Only endgame if it works in association to endgame content.
Titles – Same as achievements
Build a legendary weapon – Endgame only because you need to run dungeons to grind gifts.
Jumping Puzzles – Not endgame.
WvW – Not endgame because you can do it from level 2
sPvP & tPvP – Not endgame because you can do it from level 2
Exploring, finding/triggering obscure events, open all mini-dungeons – Not endgame. Exploration doesn’t count.
Find and collect all the toys and shapeshifter items in game – Not endgame
Organize or join a raid to take the Temple of Lyssa in Malchor’s Leap or any of the other Corrupted God Temples. – See my above rant. Not endgame.
Get a couple friends and try to control the Jump puzzle in Eternal Battlegrounds (I’ve spent many a fine evening doing that, fun skirmishes & mesmer portal play) – Part of WvW, thus it is not endgame.

Congratulations. Only two things on your list count as true endgame. So how are you going to justify your argument now?

Vasham.2408:

Congratulations. Only two things on your list count as true endgame. So how are you going to justify your argument now?

So you’d rather have to wait until 80 to do most of that? GW2 gives you the freedom to play how you want from the start and is less restrictive like other garbage MMOs that have outlived their usefulness. The entire concept of “endgame” is crap, and should be mostly done away with anyway. But of course the stupid WoW fanboys think endgame is a must and that grinding = endgame. They can’t handle a less restrictive MMO so they kitten about there being no endgame. If they want a gear treadmill they should either play fractals or look elsewhere.

Killing the Claw of Jormag feels 100x more epic to me than punching in a rotation to kill tentacles in WoW.

But it sounds like you really like it. Maybe that’s what you should be doing?

Karizee.8076:

Ubung.7423:

Ok id like to know where you get your numbers

There ya go!

http://www.wowprogress.com/

34,876 guilds beat one boss in MoP. Just one boss – not the last boss, the first boss.

34,332 were 10 man guilds. That’s 343,332.
2,823 were 25 man guilds. There’s 70,575.

For a grand total of 413,907 players.

They have a 10 million playerbase, that’s 4%. I rounded up to 5% to account for bench players.

That seems to be correct but there is something worth mentioning. People in the east dont raid much, its popularity according to that website is in the EU and US. Cant find much info on subscriber numbers for just the EU and US but I did find this.

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-1.png

(linked from http://mmodata.blogspot.co.uk/ )

I think we should use the current subscriber figures for WoW west in our calculations which is 5.1 million subs (although this number is from 2010 I think we can rely on it for now. From the rest of the graph when the total subs = 10 – 12 mill the west subs has been 4.4 to 5.4. 5.4 only being reached when the game hit 12 mill subs). So with your number of raiders at 413,907 and a subscriber base of 5.1 mill we get a total of 8% of people who completed the first boss. I couldnt find the part where it detailed 10 or 25 man guilds so I just used your raider number. You could probably lose a few and it would end up at 8% dead on.

Which I think is still an amount of players you would want to try to at least offer something for. Thats 413,907 more players playing and paying.

Barabbas.8715:

Vasham.2408:

Congratulations. Only two things on your list count as true endgame. So how are you going to justify your argument now?

So you’d rather have to wait until 80 to do most of that? GW2 gives you the freedom to play how you want from the start and is less restrictive like other garbage MMOs that have outlived their usefulness. The entire concept of “endgame” is crap, and should be mostly done away with anyway. But of course the stupid WoW fanboys think endgame is a must and that grinding = endgame. They can’t handle a less restrictive MMO so they kitten about there being no endgame. If they want a gear treadmill they should either play fractals or look elsewhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Study these and understand why your response is null and void.

To humor you a little though GW2 giving me the freedom to do what I want at 80 is a very novel and welcome concept. The only problem is that there is nothing to do.

Karizee.8076:

Killing the Claw of Jormag feels 100x more epic to me than punching in a rotation to kill tentacles in WoW.

But it sounds like you really like it. Maybe that’s what you should be doing?

I’d be careful telling people to go back to WoW. The way current population trends are showing makes it seem most GW2 players are following that advice.

There are things to do in Gw2, so long as you’re willing to put a carrot on a stick, and do whatever is enjoyable as a means of getting to it eventually. We’re fairly punished for trying to grind out things we want directly, so we have to do dungeons and such.

In all honesty, the only reason I don’t play WoW anymore is because I played for 8 years. Time to move on. Some still enjoy it, that’s fine too. Both games are catering to different groups of people.

I recently found myself joining my Server on mumble and coordinating for WvW. Quite fun. My long term goals are to get the Legendary shield, and eventually learn enough to be a decent enough commander.

to each his own.

Karizee.8076:

There is no proper end-game and/or guild progression in GW2, no matter how many words you want to type.

Barabbas.8715:

Vasham.2408:

Congratulations. Only two things on your list count as true endgame. So how are you going to justify your argument now?

So you’d rather have to wait until 80 to do most of that? GW2 gives you the freedom to play how you want from the start and is less restrictive like other garbage MMOs that have outlived their usefulness. The entire concept of “endgame” is crap, and should be mostly done away with anyway. But of course the stupid WoW fanboys think endgame is a must and that grinding = endgame. They can’t handle a less restrictive MMO so they kitten about there being no endgame. If they want a gear treadmill they should either play fractals or look elsewhere.

GW2 was marketed to us as a game that has THAT from level 1. Meanwhile in reality, it’s not in the game anywhere. And the idea of no vertical progression won’t hold that many people for too long, which will result in servers being spread pretty thin, especially at mid-levels.

Running out of stuff to do in these games kill them.

Vasham.2408:

I’d be careful telling people to go back to WoW. The way current population trends are showing makes it seem most GW2 players are following that advice.

I’m not saying Go Back To WoW. I’m saying if you want to raid, and since you’ve expressed that you like raids in WoW so much, maybe you should go raid. When you’re bored with raiding, then you can play GW2

Otherwise it’s a bit silly to complain on a message board about a game with no raids that there are no raids. Kinda like playing Chess and complaining it’s not Monopoly.

Btw, in case you haven’t noticed, the population of GW2 is continuing to trend upwards. Ever since launch, ANet has steadily increased server caps and just as fast as they increase them, the servers fill up again.

The game is packed with people. There hasn’t been a day in months that I don’t hit overflow – overflow every day, any time of day!

Karizee.8076:

Killing the Claw of Jormag feels 100x more epic to me than punching in a rotation to kill tentacles in WoW.

But it sounds like you really like it. Maybe that’s what you should be doing?

Then you’re easily amused. But that’s subjective opinion.

/discussion point

The constant arguments I’m seeing, which are riddled with flaws and often followed by a lot of ad hominem comments are

1: Don’t like it? don’t play it:

The height of ignorant and vapid responses and gets nobody ANYWHERE.

2: There’s lots of things to do insert list of horribly flawed gameplay elements:

If they were all working in a clever manner and weren’t so one sided towards meaningful rewards leading you to dungeons, this would be the case. But…. it’s not.

3: Do those large dragon sub bosses!!!:

And in between spawns… log out and play a meaningful game right? lol

4: 90% of the time, it works every time:

Usually numbers given as facts from disreputable sources, which fail to take into account some other logical points, for example was the “how many have downed HC ragnarok FL” percentile taken from A: active players or just total players registered B: only players who participated in firelands C: excluding players who only farmed trash in firelands

etc etc etc.

Here’s a point of view you’ll see a lot in WoW these days, LFR was NOT implemented to save raiding due to those percentiles, if it was there to justify the content then there was FAR better ways of implementing it than how it was… this has yet to be dis-proven.

example 2:

Even their normal raids only has 5% of the playerbase participating. Raiding is really a dead concept.

GW2 has the large outdoor events for the “epic feel” and the escalating difficulty of Fractals for players that want to test their skills in a team environment.

Source? remember it has to take into account the proper factors to get a real reading of the trends and percentiles to make this claim legit.

If 5% of the playerbase total is only raiding, that could be a much larger number if we remove the excess garbage bloat.

uncle chan voice OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONE MORE THING!

Heroic raids, whilst potentially obsolete and up for debate about being so. Are a convenient straw man as compared to raiding IN GENERAL as a WHOLE.

This game def needs raiding, and the epic feal isn’t really their with open world events since their braindead easy, ide like some raids were you have 30 people defending a keep two towers style :P

Blissified.8369:

This game def needs raiding, and the epic feal isn’t really their with open world events since their braindead easy, ide like some raids were you have 30 people defending a keep two towers style :P

And here’s where I disagree, because the ideal of raiding IS somewhat captured albeit badly in GW2 with the large dynamic event bosses like Claw of Jormagg, we don’t need “raiding” in GW2, we just need them to make the big bosses BETTER and stop making them akin to “do boss, wait for next respawn for ages, rinse lather and repeat”
let’s also not forget the lag and culling issues that having them moping around in the overworld causes as well as trivialization in terms of difficulty if too many folks spam him. They should have been in small instances which would allow for better mechanics environmentally and offering up challenge, it was a huge mistake to do them as they have.

People IMHO should stop asking for other games niche aspects, but instead look towards taking the badly implemented but brilliant ideas that A-Net came up with and telling them “DO IT BETTER!”

So reading through the whole postings here, nice to see many different opinions, however I see a lot of similarities as well.

The game is 4.5 – 5 months old (since launch) now, and the END GAME is more then most MMO’s had ever before at this stage of the game’s age, some seem very good at ignoring this fact.

Secondly many compare End Game content to what they are USED TO, meaning, what we know from previous MMORPG’s, I would never compare GW2 to the old mmo’s, If you really look at the core of old MMO’s endgame it was but 1 thing, get the best gear and weapon. That was it PvE wise, then you went to the PvP places and showed it off, get killed, and become better as a player. Stand AFK in the main city doing trading and chatting all day long and WoW players would do raids to get more money to spend on……..what exactly? you had the endgame gear.

In GW2 end game is a entirely different concept in itself, so stop thinking about what you are used to and try and adapt your view to what is end game here, and it is most definately NOT just running Fractals all kitten day.

Because of the upscaling (in certain situations and places) and downscaling you can utilize all of Tyria as end game zones, this makes it a lot bigger then getting super gear and facerolling through dungeons.

If you want a game like WoW then play WoW. You don’t play this game to gear grind forever.

I think GW2 is a bit unfinished right now. It needs more everything, but the great thing about an MMO is that it can always be added to.

Vasham.2408:

I’d be careful telling people to go back to WoW. The way current population trends are showing makes it seem most GW2 players are following that advice.

So…? We should rather tell them to play a game they don’t like? If they like their precious WoW better, they should go back. If they want raiding, why did they come to GW2…? This game shouldn’t prosper because it’s “better than WoW”, but because it’s good on it’s own. Not to mention it shouldn’t be compared with WoW at all, which some people still can’t understand… WoW raids and their “replayability” based on the gear treadmill is the most boring thing I can imagine in a game, it’s more boring than anything I can do in GW2. The best thing is that I don’t have to play GW2 4 hours a day every day. I guess it’s subjective, but I don’t want that magical endgame you miss from this game, which keeps you occupied all in your freetime, I want GW2 to be simply a game which I’m logging into when I like and have some fun. If this means it “dies” in a year, then so be it, there are other fun games. My biggest problem with games is that I only have 24 hours a day and I can’t play all the games I want, and then there are other thing I have to or want to do in my freetime, so I don’t want ONE game to take all my freetime. GW2 gives me FREEDOM compared to those 3-4 hour FRIKKIN BORING raid-sessions in WoW.

By the way, weren’t these things said about GW1 when it started? Everyone compared it to WoW, they said it’s bad and it will die because it has no real PvE, everyone wanted it to be another WoW… And look how it died. You don’t need 10 million subscribers for a game to be successful, not every game is for the masses. You can’t please everyone, and there is no such thing everyone will like.