Guild Wars 2

Can’t really see why anyone is defending the Ascended gear… Seriously.
Ascended should only have been skins. Period.

As far as I know no one has come to the forums telling “Great! Ascended gear was exactly what I was looking for in this game and it was lacking!”

Really… I would like someone to come and tell us this and explain because I really can’t see.
- Either you want somethign to grind in which case skins would have worked just fine
- Either you want better stats… But why? Every one person defending the ascended gear is telling that ascended is not needed. So why better stats?

Really can’t understand.

BeoErgon.9107:

Can’t really see why anyone is defending the Ascended gear… Seriously.
Ascended should only have been skins. Period.

As far as I know no one has come to the forums telling “Great! Ascended gear was exactly what I was looking for in this game and it was lacking!”

Really… I would like someone to come and tell us this and explain because I really can’t see.
- Either you want somethign to grind in which case skins would have worked just fine
- Either you want better stats… But why? Every one person defending the ascended gear is telling that ascended is not needed. So why better stats?

Really can’t understand.

Same here, I almost got all professions and cannot choose a main. But ascended armour/weapons kinda force me towards creating a main and let others go a bit. I cannot imagine any MMO wants players to ignore their alts.

jheryn.8390:

Change will always happen. Not accepting that fact, I believe, is unhealthy.

I agree, but there are much healthier ways to make gear progression additions and changes. I outlined a much better vertical gear route in my OP and hopefully we get something similar to it sooner than later.

BeoErgon.9107:

Can’t really see why anyone is defending the Ascended gear… Seriously.
Ascended should only have been skins. Period.

As far as I know no one has come to the forums telling “Great! Ascended gear was exactly what I was looking for in this game and it was lacking!”

Really… I would like someone to come and tell us this and explain because I really can’t see.
- Either you want somethign to grind in which case skins would have worked just fine
- Either you want better stats… But why? Every one person defending the ascended gear is telling that ascended is not needed. So why better stats?

Really can’t understand.

Actually I will say that, ascended added something to the game that was lacking for me. When I started playing I thought Exotic was going to be that for me, but it was too easy to acquire them. I like something to work for. Ascended gives me that. Also I don’t see it as a grind. I am not a players that needs everything right now. I play the way I play and the items just come.

I could have 4 or 5 ascended weapons right now if I was to go and grind for them, but that takes away from playing the way I want. I run dungeons, I do world bosses when I feel like it. Dragonite Ore is the main thing I am always lacking to complete my weapons. But I don’t enjoy running world bosses all the time so I get it when I get it. But I always have something to work towards, something I know my time has earned. It is fun for me this way.

Hjorje.9453:

BeoErgon.9107:

Can’t really see why anyone is defending the Ascended gear… Seriously.
Ascended should only have been skins. Period.

As far as I know no one has come to the forums telling “Great! Ascended gear was exactly what I was looking for in this game and it was lacking!”

Really… I would like someone to come and tell us this and explain because I really can’t see.
- Either you want somethign to grind in which case skins would have worked just fine
- Either you want better stats… But why? Every one person defending the ascended gear is telling that ascended is not needed. So why better stats?

Really can’t understand.

Actually I will say that, ascended added something to the game that was lacking for me. When I started playing I thought Exotic was going to be that for me, but it was too easy to acquire them. I like something to work for. Ascended gives me that. Also I don’t see it as a grind. I am not a players that needs everything right now. I play the way I play and the items just come.

I could have 4 or 5 ascended weapons right now if I was to go and grind for them, but that takes away from playing the way I want. I run dungeons, I do world bosses when I feel like it. Dragonite Ore is the main thing I am always lacking to complete my weapons. But I don’t enjoy running world bosses all the time so I get it when I get it. But I always have something to work towards, something I know my time has earned. It is fun for me this way.

Fine with having a long term goal… But why the increase of stats? Legendaries were exotics with skins too and people loved to grind for them.
I really want to know if you think that the increase of stats that the Ascende gears introduces is needed and why?

And please, not wanting them right here right now does not mean you don’t have to grind for them… Just counting the quantity of mats you need for leveling up a craft, many of those account bound, means that like it or not, slow or fast, you have to grind those mats (that is a grind for me: repetitive tasks to obtain more and more of the same account bound mats.)

You enter in the first idea I had : you wanted something long to obtain, a big goal. But why the increase in stats? That is what I don’t get.

Hjorje.9453:

Actually I will say that, ascended added something to the game that was lacking for me. When I started playing I thought Exotic was going to be that for me, but it was too easy to acquire them. I like something to work for. Ascended gives me that. Also I don’t see it as a grind. I am not a players that needs everything right now. I play the way I play and the items just come.

If GW2 actually had meaningful build diversity, you’d be able to farm all the various stat sets available to try new and fun different builds !

Alas, only Zerk matters.

stof.9341:

Hjorje.9453:

Actually I will say that, ascended added something to the game that was lacking for me. When I started playing I thought Exotic was going to be that for me, but it was too easy to acquire them. I like something to work for. Ascended gives me that. Also I don’t see it as a grind. I am not a players that needs everything right now. I play the way I play and the items just come.

If GW2 actually had meaningful build diversity, you’d be able to farm all the various stat sets available to try new and fun different builds !

Alas, only Zerk matters.

meaningful build diversity is severely lack here.

Vayne.8563:

So when Anet released the game, the max level gear was it. Done. Exotics were top level and it’s all we could get. And people weren’t staying with the game. We know that because Anet said it, but also because of stuff posted on the forum. I know it anecdotally from my own observations.

So Anet gave it the old college try and saw it wasn’t working. They made changes to try to bring players back to the game, or keep players that were playing the game. Unfortunately, that left other players out in the cold.

ok Vayne, if you were lead developer in charge of gear implementation and progression, how would you design all gear related systems that would be beneficial for anet and not keep any player out in the cold?

Given that:
1 I can’t afford to buy gems for gold because i have a real life (house, bills, family)
2 I don’t farm because i already have a job. Same for playing the TP.
3 I don’t want to spend the little time i have to play harvesting stuff because it’s freaking boring. Same for FoTM.
4 I’m poor (9gold atm , see point number 2)

My question is simple: will they plan to add other ways to obtain Ascended Weapon/Armors other than Crafting or 0,000000000000001% drop from Champions?
Because i can’t see me acquiring them the way they are now, and if things won’t change i’m better off quitting.

stof.9341:

jheryn.8390:

I appreciate your views. And I totally get what you are saying, but I didn’t say the situation was unhealthy, I said that not accepting change was unhealthy.

Why would it be healthy to accept changes for the worse? Of course it’s a matter of opinion in the end. Still …

I actually think it would stof. If something changes and you don’t accept it, that is called denial. That isn’t healthy! LOL

Of course, there is nothing wrong with doing what you can to reverse or change what has been changed for the worse. We don’t have to like change, but we do have to accept that it happens. What we do with it after that is up to us.

BeoErgon.9107:

Hjorje.9453:

BeoErgon.9107:

Can’t really see why anyone is defending the Ascended gear… Seriously.
Ascended should only have been skins. Period.

As far as I know no one has come to the forums telling “Great! Ascended gear was exactly what I was looking for in this game and it was lacking!”

Really… I would like someone to come and tell us this and explain because I really can’t see.
- Either you want somethign to grind in which case skins would have worked just fine
- Either you want better stats… But why? Every one person defending the ascended gear is telling that ascended is not needed. So why better stats?

Really can’t understand.

Actually I will say that, ascended added something to the game that was lacking for me. When I started playing I thought Exotic was going to be that for me, but it was too easy to acquire them. I like something to work for. Ascended gives me that. Also I don’t see it as a grind. I am not a players that needs everything right now. I play the way I play and the items just come.

I could have 4 or 5 ascended weapons right now if I was to go and grind for them, but that takes away from playing the way I want. I run dungeons, I do world bosses when I feel like it. Dragonite Ore is the main thing I am always lacking to complete my weapons. But I don’t enjoy running world bosses all the time so I get it when I get it. But I always have something to work towards, something I know my time has earned. It is fun for me this way.

Fine with having a long term goal… But why the increase of stats? Legendaries were exotics with skins too and people loved to grind for them.
I really want to know if you think that the increase of stats that the Ascende gears introduces is needed and why?

And please, not wanting them right here right now does not mean you don’t have to grind for them… Just counting the quantity of mats you need for leveling up a craft, many of those account bound, means that like it or not, slow or fast, you have to grind those mats (that is a grind for me: repetitive tasks to obtain more and more of the same account bound mats.)

You enter in the first idea I had : you wanted something long to obtain, a big goal. But why the increase in stats? That is what I don’t get.

I agree with Hjorje on this one. And I think the answer to your question is another question. “Who would grind or have a long term goal of getting a weapon or armor that are equal to the exotics we can already easily obtain?” I sure wouldn’t work that hard for a mere skin.

jheryn.8390:

I actually think it would stof. If something changes and you don’t accept it, that is called denial. That isn’t healthy! LOL

Of course, there is nothing wrong with doing what you can to reverse or change what has been changed for the worse. We don’t have to like change, but we do have to accept that it happens. What we do with it after that is up to us.

That’s not denial, that’s called disagreeing with the evolution of a game and a franchise I loved. That’s not unhealthy, that’s standing up for me and not following the sheeps down the standard treadmill MMO genre.

In fact, I do believe it’s more healthy to have a no statistics evolution MMO past the tutorial part. GW2 having lost it’s way just means I’m not giving them any more money nor playing their product until they fix that mistake.

BeoErgon.9107:

Hjorje.9453:

BeoErgon.9107:

Can’t really see why anyone is defending the Ascended gear… Seriously.
Ascended should only have been skins. Period.

As far as I know no one has come to the forums telling “Great! Ascended gear was exactly what I was looking for in this game and it was lacking!”

Really… I would like someone to come and tell us this and explain because I really can’t see.
- Either you want somethign to grind in which case skins would have worked just fine
- Either you want better stats… But why? Every one person defending the ascended gear is telling that ascended is not needed. So why better stats?

Really can’t understand.

Actually I will say that, ascended added something to the game that was lacking for me. When I started playing I thought Exotic was going to be that for me, but it was too easy to acquire them. I like something to work for. Ascended gives me that. Also I don’t see it as a grind. I am not a players that needs everything right now. I play the way I play and the items just come.

I could have 4 or 5 ascended weapons right now if I was to go and grind for them, but that takes away from playing the way I want. I run dungeons, I do world bosses when I feel like it. Dragonite Ore is the main thing I am always lacking to complete my weapons. But I don’t enjoy running world bosses all the time so I get it when I get it. But I always have something to work towards, something I know my time has earned. It is fun for me this way.

Fine with having a long term goal… But why the increase of stats? Legendaries were exotics with skins too and people loved to grind for them.
I really want to know if you think that the increase of stats that the Ascende gears introduces is needed and why?

And please, not wanting them right here right now does not mean you don’t have to grind for them… Just counting the quantity of mats you need for leveling up a craft, many of those account bound, means that like it or not, slow or fast, you have to grind those mats (that is a grind for me: repetitive tasks to obtain more and more of the same account bound mats.)

You enter in the first idea I had : you wanted something long to obtain, a big goal. But why the increase in stats? That is what I don’t get.

Why increase the stats. Well the original idea was for exotics to play that role, guess what, they have increased stats over rares. They felled on the quest for exotics. So they added ascended. Instead of increasing the stats at the same percentage as exotics over rares they only increased them slightly.

And I am sorry, playing my way, how I want is not a grind to me at all. I run dungeons every day with my guildies. Guess what, I do it for fun, because I enjoy them, not for the rewards, not for the drops, but because I enjoy them. I also don’t jump on the champ trains, I kill champs when their in my way if I can. I also enjoy doing temple events with my guildies. Those are things I enjoy. I was doing them before the ascended weapons were added and I am still doing them now, no more, no less. So how is that a grind, you choose to see it as a grind, I choose to look at it, as the way I play.

And as for the mats, I had enough mats to level my weaponsmith up to 500 when it came out, I didn’t have to grind for them. I didn’t have to spend money for them. But I am a hoarder so I have lots of stuff. Now after leveling my weaponsmith up, I don’t have enough to level Huntsman, or Artificer up, but that will come with time as I gather during my normal play session.

And you comment about Legendarys and people grinding for them, now that is something I consider a grind, one I will probably never get because it doesn’t fit how I play, if I end up with the mats and a precursor, then sure I will get one, but I am not going out of my way and grind for one.

caiomacos.1694:

Peetee.9406:

What if the majority of players like to grind?

If I liked grinding I would buy a game that is based on it (and there are tons of grind-based MMOs), and not one that promotes itself as the opposite. But maybe thats just me.

Your talking here so you bought GW2. So you have purchased a game based on grind.

What many don’t realize is that GW2 WAS released as originally advertised…no grind. The only real heavy grind was for legendaries…as was intended to be. Exotics dropped FAR more frequently than they do now, especially from dragons when you could regularly get 2 exos from the same chest, but it was a similar story in dungeons too. T6 mats also dropped far more frequently. It’s widely believed a stock sale deal that was made with Nexon was largely responsible for an enormous loot nerf throughout all parts of GW2. This was first noticed around mid last November (2012), when several huge (1000’s of posts) threads popped up on the forums, as well as on Reddit and other scene sites, complaining there was something wrong with the loot system. To my knowledge, after following the threads for months, before giving up and stopping play, Arenanet NEVER replied with anything other than vagaries or to close threads to try and bury the issue. It crystalized during Lost Shores when after killing so many karka, so many veterans and champs, bags were all but empty. Then there was the uncharacteristic chest at the end of lost shores which gave out a ridiculous amount of precursors, I know people who received 2. After Lost Shores the reality began to sink in. Jumping puzzle chests very rarely returned anything other blues, greens were rare and the only rares you ever saw where crests. Dungeon, world boss, temple and dragon chests were no better, regular champs never dropped anything, ever. Regular farming areas were nerfed in to the ground or changed to make them too difficult to farm. Everything seemed like it was trying to push you in to the fractals or to buy gems. I detested this ploy and stopped playing the game for a long time.

After 7 months off, I started playing again for Halloween, the clock tower being the only JP I was missing, and while not nearly as good as pre-November 2012, loot is much better than it was last winter. Of course, it may only be temporary while they try to get people to buy in to ascended crafting. Personally, while it’s cheaper than a legendary, I’m, still not convinced and will continue to save a for a legendary until such time I feel comfortable with ascended.

McSlappy.1372:

caiomacos.1694:

Peetee.9406:

What if the majority of players like to grind?

If I liked grinding I would buy a game that is based on it (and there are tons of grind-based MMOs), and not one that promotes itself as the opposite. But maybe thats just me.

Your talking here so you bought GW2. So you have purchased a game based on grind.

He so did not. The game was advertised as anti-grind and for the first glorious four months of it`s existence was as anti-grind as you could get. Do you know what I did when I saw what had happened with the release of the lost shores patch? I returned the game for a refund, that`s what I did, claiming false advertising. It was permitted.

I only bought it again a couple months later for half off, after the easing of requirements to acquire ascended gear. This crafting debacle has made me almost regret it.

There are two reasons i bought this game:
- i like wvw
- i don’t like grind
Now i need to grind harder than anywhere else, and i need to wait in long queues for wvw.
If i am lucky, i will be able to get one set of ascended gear for one character within a year or two. What about build diversity? And what about other characters?
At least i don’t need to buy more character slots, since i am forced to play with one.
But this doesn’t make me happy…

jheryn.8390:

Things change. That includes development statements of any kind for any game, project or anything else.

Manifestos can change as well. Sometimes things just go in a different direction.

Perception is also a contributing factor. What one person perceives as true may not be true for another.

Looking at things objectively, I understand why many of you feel as you do thinking that the original statements by developers were not adhered to. When they said those things I am certain they meant to do them. We will never know why or how things changed or even if they did.

Addressing grind, I personally don’t see where grind is necessary to play this game. There are many things anyone can do without having to grind for anything.

There are weapons and armor and achievements that will absolutely require some grinding, but no one has to do these things in order to play the game.

As someone said above, a certain amount of time sinks (grind) are necessary for any game to keep going. Also, there are those people out there, myself included, that enjoy working toward a goal. I don’t mind farming mats because I am working toward a goal. I know that isn’t for everyone, but for some it is great. We don’t look at it as grind, we look at it as a means to an end. So grind to some may not be grind to others. Again, it is a perspective thing.

Concerning statements about the game, I don’t see much of what was in the original statements of the dev and the manifesto as being wrong or misleading. I think this comes from my perception of what was said and my acceptance of change.

Change will always happen. Not accepting that fact, I believe, is unhealthy.

Yes, not accepting change is unhealthy. However, that does not mean I can’t wish things had been as promised and mourn the loss of the game I had bought.

I am not one to say “they broke the Manifesto, I leaving the game!!” However, I can say that I refuse the gear treadmill (that means no ascended or further), play with people who likewise refuse the gear treadmill (or do not mind that I am), and choose to not give them any more money unless things change to something I prefer.

Certainly the game will continue to change. It will either go in a direction I cannot stand or I will find a game I think I would prefer, at which time I will simply leave, or it will go somewhere I like, at which time Anet will get my money again.

McSlappy.1372:

caiomacos.1694:

Peetee.9406:

What if the majority of players like to grind?

If I liked grinding I would buy a game that is based on it (and there are tons of grind-based MMOs), and not one that promotes itself as the opposite. But maybe thats just me.

Your talking here so you bought GW2. So you have purchased a game based on grind.

Well, no. Since I bought this game under the premise that it would be based on horizontal progression. But youre right about this game (after ascended introduction) being based on mandatory grind.

Hjorje.9453:

Why increase the stats. Well the original idea was for exotics to play that role, guess what, they have increased stats over rares.

Which is belied by comments before launch about BiS being easily available at end game then 2 months after launch anet made exotics easily available with the karma consumables.

caiomacos.1694:

McSlappy.1372:

caiomacos.1694:

Peetee.9406:

What if the majority of players like to grind?

If I liked grinding I would buy a game that is based on it (and there are tons of grind-based MMOs), and not one that promotes itself as the opposite. But maybe thats just me.

Your talking here so you bought GW2. So you have purchased a game based on grind.

Well, no. Since I bought this game under the premise that it would be based on horizontal progression. But youre right about this game (after ascended introduction) being based on mandatory grind.

Sorry didn’t emphasis the sarcasm enough. I know I bought the game based on a next to no grind just as you did. Then 3 months later it turned in to the most grindy MMO in existence. Making WoW look more like the the manifesto then the game they have evolved.

So I’ve looked at the manifesto again this afternoon. Blizzard has delivered on every single point in there except for the trinity which seeing how ANet has failed with it I’d say it’s better the other way. They haven’t reinvented the game but there are elements of everything in the manifesto in the current parts of the WoW expansion and probably will be going forward.

morrolan.9608:

Hjorje.9453:

Why increase the stats. Well the original idea was for exotics to play that role, guess what, they have increased stats over rares.

Which is belied by comments before launch about BiS being easily available at end game then 2 months after launch anet made exotics easily available with the karma consumables.

But then they nerfed the ability to gain karma, again making it more of a grind.

Leamas.5803:

But then they nerfed the ability to gain karma, again making it more of a grind.

Yeah but that was after another what 8 months or so. By then it didn’t matter.

I think a lot of this discussion is coming from two different viewpoints. 1.) The view point of GW1 players. There was zero vertical progression. You leveled to 20 bought some armor and weapons and it was cheap. Gw2 compared with that game is grindy.

2.) Players coming from games with raid locks where level curves are steep etc. find this game a breeze.

The problem: When they were saying they wanted it to be cosmetic only, it was mostly read by the GW1 vets. That was the largest player base reading all of the early hype. It feels as if it was aimed at that. The problem is that the devs over sold what it was going to be.

Keep in mind they were also saying there may not be a level cap and that we would get actual expansions. Things have changed with the devs and the consumer’s opinion. It makes sense that some people are disgruntled and others are not. Sometimes though, if you bought something for a reason based off of what a developer said and the game now doesn’t match that (and it doesn’t match the early things said by the devs by their own admission of iteration) then sometimes it’s best to move on.

I for one am waiting to hear what the permanent content was that Colin was talking about earlier in the year. I will give the benefit of the doubt til then.

o.O The white knights are in short supply on this thread. What happened, did they become bitter too or just tired? lol

I think the intersection of two things bit GW2 in the kitten here.

1. Anet wanted a mainstream MMO and a bigger piece of the pie
2. The niche ideals that made GW1 awesome wouldn’t allow them that piece of pie.

They strayed from the game’s advertised direction once they realized this(or was this intended?), it turned into an odd mash-up of ideas and a lot players are tired of the continuing corporate double speak.

I play multiple characters, and I don’t want to keep gearing them up. I want to log in and fight against other groups of people with my guildmates. Stat chasing sucks kittens.

Iason Evan.3806:

I think a lot of this discussion is coming from two different viewpoints. 1.) The view point of GW1 players. There was zero vertical progression. You leveled to 20 bought some armor and weapons and it was cheap. Gw2 compared with that game is grindy.

2.) Players coming from games with raid locks where level curves are steep etc. find this game a breeze.

The problem: When they were saying they wanted it to be cosmetic only, it was mostly read by the GW1 vets. That was the largest player base reading all of the early hype. It feels as if it was aimed at that. The problem is that the devs over sold what it was going to be.

Keep in mind they were also saying there may not be a level cap and that we would get actual expansions. Things have changed with the devs and the consumer’s opinion. It makes sense that some people are disgruntled and others are not. Sometimes though, if you bought something for a reason based off of what a developer said and the game now doesn’t match that (and it doesn’t match the early things said by the devs by their own admission of iteration) then sometimes it’s best to move on.

I for one am waiting to hear what the permanent content was that Colin was talking about earlier in the year. I will give the benefit of the doubt til then.

Not sure which group you was putting me in, but I am a GW1 vet. I still play GW1 when I feel the need to run FoW or Urgoz. But I played Everquest and DAoC for years, and loved them, I didn’t mind the grind back then when I was younger and had a lot more time to play.

I started GW1 because I needed something new. It fit into my new playstyle. GW2 also fits that. But I know what a grind is, I have played in games that had a grind, GW2 doesn’t have a grind for my playstyle. Now the players that either have to have everything right now, or thought everything was going to be handed to them, then their is a grind in this game, but that is their fault for the mindset that they play with. Myself and everyone in the guild I am with don’t feel this game has a grind, it is fun to play, and I know that I will continue to play it until it isn’t fun for me.

There are things ANET releases that I don’t like, but ascended items aren’t one of them. If I was to look at ascended weapons, you know the hardest part about them is. Getting your crafting to 500, because after that, it really isn’t that hard or grindy to make a weapon. The grind is getting to 500 if you didn’t have a stock pile of mats laying around (which I did for my first 500), then if you had to get it done fast it would be a grind, or take your time and it will take a while to get there.

jheryn.8390:

I agree with Hjorje on this one. And I think the answer to your question is another question. “Who would grind or have a long term goal of getting a weapon or armor that are equal to the exotics we can already easily obtain?” I sure wouldn’t work that hard for a mere skin.

Well, there are lots of player grinding for Legendaries that were mere skins just not long ago…
And don’t forget the OP quoted comments : long term goals were supposed to be just that: skins.
Me and as far as I can see many in the forums liked this game just as it was: no grind for stats.

Hjorje.9453:

Snip…

Exotics were just fine as advertised : maximum stats by leveling 80. Craft them, use dungeon tokens, get them by exploration, for karma,… Easy to obtain and everyone can afford.

And you talk about minimum stat increase with ascended, but with jewels, now weapons and later armors the increase will be far from minimal, just like there is a big gap between full exotic and rare.

And lucky you to have had all the mats at hand to craft, but for many people, specially those that never bothered to level up the crafting, there is a big investment in time and money to just be able to start crafting one weapon.
When Armor crafting comes out the investment will increase even more.
How is this not a grind? Even if it takes you months playing it your way the number of mats needed does not change.

This is creating a gap in stats between players. Armors will increase that gap.
How can anyone tell this is a good thing?
I absolutelly hated the equipment induced gap in other MMOs.

Well, at least PVP players are not affected, but I seriously pity those in WvW if one full exotic confronts one full ascended player and both have same level of skills.

Hjorje.9453:

There are things ANET releases that I don’t like, but ascended items aren’t one of them. If I was to look at ascended weapons, you know the hardest part about them is. Getting your crafting to 500, because after that, it really isn’t that hard or grindy to make a weapon. The grind is getting to 500 if you didn’t have a stock pile of mats laying around (which I did for my first 500), then if you had to get it done fast it would be a grind, or take your time and it will take a while to get there.

I agree, I don’t have a problem with the ascended weapons, but I do worry, that they will change the recipes for the legendaries and the various gifts associated to make them will require crafting level 500. I can afford to do one of the gifts now, but certainly not both. I’ve been “playing” the game rather than trying to grind incessantly to the legendary. Now if they make the legendary even more difficult/expensive/grindy to get, I’ll not be impressed.

BeoErgon.9107:

jheryn.8390:

I agree with Hjorje on this one. And I think the answer to your question is another question. “Who would grind or have a long term goal of getting a weapon or armor that are equal to the exotics we can already easily obtain?” I sure wouldn’t work that hard for a mere skin.

Well, there are lots of player grinding for Legendaries that were mere skins just not long ago…
And don’t forget the OP quoted comments : long term goals were supposed to be just that: skins.
Me and as far as I can see many in the forums liked this game just as it was: no grind for stats.

Hjorje.9453:

Snip…

Exotics were just fine as advertised : maximum stats by leveling 80. Craft them, use dungeon tokens, get them by exploration, for karma,… Easy to obtain and everyone can afford.

And you talk about minimum stat increase with ascended, but with jewels, now weapons and later armors the increase will be far from minimal, just like there is a big gap between full exotic and rare.

And lucky you to have had all the mats at hand to craft, but for many people, specially those that never bothered to level up the crafting, there is a big investment in time and money to just be able to start crafting one weapon.
When Armor crafting comes out the investment will increase even more.
How is this not a grind? Even if it takes you months playing it your way the number of mats needed does not change.

This is creating a gap in stats between players. Armors will increase that gap.
How can anyone tell this is a good thing?
I absolutelly hated the equipment induced gap in other MMOs.

Well, at least PVP players are not affected, but I seriously pity those in WvW if one full exotic confronts one full ascended player and both have same level of skills.

Stop using WvW as a scapegoat, aside from rare 1v1s and any other scenario where the player count is even and for some odd reason only one side has full ascended and one side has full exotics, Ascended gear matters little. Many people who push at the fact that Full ascended gear is 15% better than full exotics are pointing at effective power of full serkers, I’m not sure how many full serker builds out there are viable in WvW. Lastly WvW is inherently unbalanced as said multiple times, and the stat difference of ascended vs Exotics gets blown out of the park when you just have 1 extra person in a small man fight.

People pointing to the manifesto as “proof” is wrong because half of them never even read it, they simply just heard someone talked about it. when this was shown to them and that no where in the manifest states there would be no gear progression, and in fact unless you skew what two of the things they’ve said to great extremity can you even think they’ve said it. Just like how the OP took out only a small part of what the devs said and took it out of context.

Keiel.7489:

Stop using WvW as a scapegoat, aside from rare 1v1s and any other scenario where the player count is even and for some odd reason only one side has full ascended and one side has full exotics, Ascended gear matters little. Many people who push at the fact that Full ascended gear is 15% better than full exotics are pointing at effective power of full serkers, I’m not sure how many full serker builds out there are viable in WvW. Lastly WvW is inherently unbalanced as said multiple times, and the stat difference of ascended vs Exotics gets blown out of the park when you just have 1 extra person in a small man fight.

People pointing to the manifesto as “proof” is wrong because half of them never even read it, they simply just heard someone talked about it. when this was shown to them and that no where in the manifest states there would be no gear progression, and in fact unless you skew what two of the things they’ve said to great extremity can you even think they’ve said it. Just like how the OP took out only a small part of what the devs said and took it out of context.

It’s perfectly valid for the OP to be upset with the minor power gear grind that exists. ANet had a history of having no power gear grind.

When they say they don’t want you to grind and you combine that with what they did historically, there’s no reason to not make the assumption they were talking about gear grind as well as grinding to have fun.

Again, I don’t blame ANet for any of this, at the time it happened (Loot nerf, fractals, ascended) it all pointed to the Nexon sale. I think it was forced by Nexon and NCSoft and ANet had little control over the situation. Given their history with GW1 and the first 4 months of GW2, I do feel a little sorry for ANet because I really don’t believe this is what they had in mind for GW2.

Keiel.7489:

snip.

Who is talking about a scapegoat? I talked about WvW because the differences will be more than evident there. Many people like to roam, you know? Not everything is zerg vs zerg.

What I fear the most myself will be that to justify ascended gear, Anet might introduce later some PVE content where you need it. It is the logical course of action, right? Why introduce full new tier of equipement if it is useless? Let’s make some content where you need it!!!
When that happens will be the time GW2 will start segmenting the player base upon gear. And I really fear this will come soon.

Still, apart from telling ‘I want those’, no one has really justified the need of higher stats in weapons. They are useless right now, divide the player base and might introduce a change in politics in the game that might lead GW2 to look like any other MMO, with a grind for stats to be able to do some part of the content.

Again, why? What was wrong with leveling your toon, getting it its gear and just, I don’t know… just play? Disconect for a month and come back with full force? Not having to level up ALL THE CRAFTS if you have mutliple toons using various weapons and spend ridiculous amounts of time and mats to gear them instead of playing?

GW2 at the beginning was just fine for me (yes, I talk for me, as everyone here in the forums does). Should have continued like that.

BeoErgon.9107:

Keiel.7489:

snip.

Who is talking about a scapegoat? I talked about WvW because the differences will be more than evident there. Many people like to roam, you know? Not everything is zerg vs zerg.

What I fear the most myself will be that to justify ascended gear, Anet might introduce later some PVE content where you need it. It is the logical course of action, right? Why introduce full new tier of equipement if it is useless? Let’s make some content where you need it!!!

Of course they will do that once most players have ascended equipment, they will have to.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

People keep using phrases like “honor their word”. Like this was some kind of holy writ. Something that Anet decided they would abandon lightly. But no one really knows.

First Anet is a company comprised of many people. Like all such companies, as people leave and new people come in, things change. Because everyone has different visions. Games aren’t science, they’re a form of art. You can’t always predict where art will go.

There are times as a writer where I’ve submitted a proposal and the end product was quite different (in a couple of cases drastically different) than what was originally presented. It happens. Not because I’m a liar. Not because I’m not a man of my word.

It’s because I tried something that didn’t work quite the way I thought it would. And then I thought of something that I felt made the piece better. Maybe more suited to the audience I was writing for, maybe more plausible. Maybe just more entertaining from my point of view. Indeed, I can’t write from anyone else’s point of view.

So when Anet released the game, the max level gear was it. Done. Exotics were top level and it’s all we could get. And people weren’t staying with the game. We know that because Anet said it, but also because of stuff posted on the forum. I know it anecdotally from my own observations.

So Anet gave it the old college try and saw it wasn’t working. They made changes to try to bring players back to the game, or keep players that were playing the game. Unfortunately, that left other players out in the cold.

For Anet it was a lose/lose situation. Stick to your guns, do something you see isn’t working, or change it to the best of your ability within time and budget constraints to make it work. That was their choice.

Is this about integrity? What about the integrity to those who enjoy the game and wouldn’t have had anyone to play with if they’d kept going as they were?

I’m sorry but all this hyperbole about betrayal and honor and sticking to your word is just something I’m having trouble comprehending.

Comprehending the perceptions should not be that hard. All of the pre launch information was advertising for the game. People spent money based on their expectations for the game. Those expectations were based on the advertising. If a game evolves away from what was advertised (and this one has), people are going to perceive that what is being delivered is no longer what was advertised. This is going to generate negative feelings toward the company. And yes, companies that fail to honor their advertising lose face, which is exactly what has happened.

Your analogy about a writing project is not applicable, unless you advertised to potential customers that the finished product would have features x, y and z and in fact at press did not have x, y and z. I somehow doubt that was the case, because it would make your project different than every other book, short story, or play out there. One and done product purchases like books are not a good comparison for an MMO, anyway.

Nope the writing analogy works perfectly. I submit a proposal for a book and the publisher accepts that proposal. While working on the book, I see something that’s there doesn’t really work. Most of the time it’s something minor, but sometimes it’s something major. I’ve had a book I’ve delivered so completely different from the synopsis I sold that you’d almost not know it was the same book. The publisher doesn’t care if the book is good and the book will sell.

Anet is a business. They’re not your best friend. They’re not your parents. They’re a company. They put out a product they try something and if that thing seems to not be working they are pretty much obligated to try something else. From this perspective it makes them neither dishonorable or liars. It does, however, make them pragmatic.

If you invested millions into a product, millions of dollars, five years of your life, and you saw it not work, what’s your responsibility to the player base? To remain attached to what you said three years ago, before you saw the trends, or to change the game to make it work “better”.

Not everyone is necessarily going to agree what’s better, but Anet wouldn’t have changed it if things were going great in the first place.

So the question is, what would you do now if they hadn’t changed it and there were like 12 people left playing? If there wasn’t enough money to fix bugs or create updates. Would that have been less of a betrayal somehow?

ok Vayne, if you were lead developer in charge of gear implementation and progression, how would you design all gear related systems that would be beneficial for anet and not keep any player out in the cold?

Swagger.1459:

ok Vayne, if you were lead developer in charge of gear implementation and progression, how would you design all gear related systems that would be beneficial for anet and not keep any player out in the cold?

Well, see this is the problem.

First, don’t make any mistakes. I’m against, in principle, ascended gear. I don’t like it and I don’t think it’s necessary.

However, I understand I’m not typical of people who play MMOs and might not well be in the majority. I’ve seen far too many people get to max level and leave the game because they had “nothing to do”.

Arguably, most of us would rather have more content than grind for ascended gear, but no matter how fast content is made, once it’s consumed we’re in the exact same place again.

Dynamic events weren’t working to keep people playing. Lots of people say because they’re not rewarding enough, but if every dynamic event had enough rewards to keep people playing them, the inflation would be insane, and people would keep needed to do it to catch up. It’s not a solution.

So Anet probably had some sort of meeting about what to do, and there were probably lots of suggestions. Of those suggestions, most would take time and a short time later leave them in exactly the same situation.

They can’t make content fast enough….no company can. People run out of things to do and they leave.

Annecdotally at least, it seems concurrency numbers are very important to Anet. They have said directly that it’s what they look at, because they’re not a subscription game. They can’t get concurrency numbers up if people don’t log in. That’s why the current situation exists.

Anet might have tried many other untried, untested, longer to implement solutions to keep people playing, but that involves increased risk. More time to program, more downtime if it doesn’t work and then what?

So they did what businesses always do when something they’ve tried doesn’t work. They go to something that they suspect will work. It’s the best thing to do for the business, which in my mind is probably the best thing to do for the game.

Will they lose people? Undoubtedly. But the alternative may well have been to lose more people.

Vayne.8563:

—snip—
Will they lose people? Undoubtedly. But the alternative may well have been to lose more people.

Honestly though, Vayne, I would just do what they did previously for power progression. Because that’s ultimately what this comes down to, power progression. There’s horizontal and vertical, horizontal is coming at some point they’ve said. They should do what they did in Guild Wars and tie the two together.

That was PvE skill & titles in Guild Wars. Now I’m not saying do the same exact implementation, but do the same concept. PvE skills were the horizontal progression, title progression was the vertical progression.

The power progression on the titles was very shallow, but noticeable. Skills had an increase in power with incremental power decreasing exponentially, which was brilliant. It was effectively diminishing returns on vertical progression.

This was a well thought out system. You could earn all the skills you wanted or just target, which skills you wanted. Additionally, the progression was spread out into categories (races, factions, etc.), so that the different categories could be progressed independently, but you were still progressing power for a group of abilities, instead of all skills or one skill.

Now this system by itself wouldn’t have been successful if it weren’t for the supporting cast of features in the game that supplemented the progression, such as campaign books, dungeons (nomal/hard mode), the story (normal/hard mode), and vanquishing. The other thing that made this work so well, was build diversity in Guild Wars. You could use the PvE skill progression to supplement your build or use some of the skills as the feature of the build.

There were obviously downsides to this system, such as Ursan Blessing, and other players having the option to see what your progression was on these titles. And for some of titles it wasn’t obvious, how to progress, and fairly daunting to progress.

Why not take the good, fix the bad, figure out a way to implement it into GW2 and do it. It was a really solid way to blend horizontal and vertical progression.

Shockwave.1230:

Vayne.8563:

—snip—
Will they lose people? Undoubtedly. But the alternative may well have been to lose more people.

Honestly though, Vayne, I would just do what they did previously for power progression. Because that’s ultimately what this comes down to, power progression. There’s horizontal and vertical, horizontal is coming at some point they’ve said. They should do what they did in Guild Wars and tie the two together.

That was PvE skill & titles in Guild Wars. Now I’m not saying do the same exact implementation, but do the same concept. PvE skills were the horizontal progression, title progression was the vertical progression.

The power progression on the titles was very shallow, but noticeable. Skills had an increase in power with incremental power decreasing exponentially, which was brilliant. It was effectively diminishing returns on vertical progression.

This was a well thought out system. You could earn all the skills you wanted or just target, which skills you wanted. Additionally, the progression was spread out into categories (races, factions, etc.), so that the different categories could be progressed independently, but you were still progressing power for a group of abilities, instead of all skills or one skill.

Now this system by itself wouldn’t have been successful if it weren’t for the supporting cast of features in the game that supplemented the progression, such as campaign books, dungeons (nomal/hard mode), the story (normal/hard mode), and vanquishing. The other thing that made this work so well, was build diversity in Guild Wars. You could use the PvE skill progression to supplement your build or use some of the skills as the feature of the build.

There were obviously downsides to this system, such as Ursan Blessing, and other players having the option to see what your progression was on these titles. And for some of titles it wasn’t obvious, how to progress, and fairly daunting to progress.

Why not take the good, fix the bad, figure out a way to implement it into GW2 and do it. It was a really solid way to blend horizontal and vertical progression.

I agree with you. They should have implemented horiztal rather than vertical progression. The problem of course, then becomes balance. They had a bevy of balance issues as they continued in Guild Wars 1 and they were in no way ready to deal with that in Guild Wars 2.

I’ve always believed ascended gear to be a stop gap measure. Something they threw out there while trying to get other stuff under control, with the eventual goal of adding other types of progression.

But because that progress DOES take longer to implement, they needed to not only do something, but do something fast.

Development time doesn’t often take weeks, it takes months or years. Adding new skills, weapons, professions, races, all that stuff takes a ton of time.

I think we all know the game launched too early, probably because they felt they had to get it out before MoP. So they did. Then they had a year of fixing all the stuff that didn’t get done because it was released too early. Only now are they really in a position to start working on other forms of progression.

In the meantime, they couldn’t wait until now to start doing something about the problem.

Vayne.8563:

Nope the writing analogy works perfectly. I submit a proposal for a book and the publisher accepts that proposal. While working on the book, I see something that’s there doesn’t really work. Most of the time it’s something minor, but sometimes it’s something major. I’ve had a book I’ve delivered so completely different from the synopsis I sold that you’d almost not know it was the same book. The publisher doesn’t care if the book is good and the book will sell.

The publisher in your analogy is not comparable to the customer in an MMO. The publisher is NCSoft.

Vayne.8563:

Anet is a business. They’re not your best friend. They’re not your parents. They’re a company. They put out a product they try something and if that thing seems to not be working they are pretty much obligated to try something else. From this perspective it makes them neither dishonorable or liars. It does, however, make them pragmatic.

I think that choosing to tell lies arguably does make one a liar. Advertising X in order to convince people interested in X to purchase your product, and then, after collecting their money, choosing to not deliver X is arguably both dishonorable and an example of lying.

Vayne.8563:

If you invested millions into a product, millions of dollars, five years of your life, and you saw it not work, what’s your responsibility to the player base? To remain attached to what you said three years ago, before you saw the trends, or to change the game to make it work “better”.

Your responsibility to your consumers is to deliver the product you advertised to them in order to convince them to spend their money.

Vayne.8563:

Not everyone is necessarily going to agree what’s better, but Anet wouldn’t have changed it if things were going great in the first place.

According to ANet things were going great from the beginning. This has been used to further advertise and sell the game. The turn around began within what, two months of launch ? A little hard to argue that the advertised model was failing when ANet has maintained that the game has done well from the beginning and the model was changed so shortly after launch.

jheryn.8390:

I agree with Hjorje on this one. And I think the answer to your question is another question. “Who would grind or have a long term goal of getting a weapon or armor that are equal to the exotics we can already easily obtain?”

Seeing as the ascended weapons were meant (as per original statement) for people that already started then going after Legendaries (you know, those heavy-grind equipment that was equal in stats to easily accessible exotics), i’d say the answer would be “everyone the devs made ascended stuff for”.

Vayne.8563:

Nope the writing analogy works perfectly. I submit a proposal for a book and the publisher accepts that proposal. While working on the book, I see something that’s there doesn’t really work. Most of the time it’s something minor, but sometimes it’s something major. I’ve had a book I’ve delivered so completely different from the synopsis I sold that you’d almost not know it was the same book. The publisher doesn’t care if the book is good and the book will sell.

The reader, that bought the book thinking it was a sci-fi thriller, but got a sparkling vampire romance novel, might care a lot, lot more, though. Even if the book did indeed sell better than the one originally advertised would.

McSlappy.1372:

caiomacos.1694:

Peetee.9406:

What if the majority of players like to grind?

If I liked grinding I would buy a game that is based on it (and there are tons of grind-based MMOs), and not one that promotes itself as the opposite. But maybe thats just me.

Your talking here so you bought GW2. So you have purchased a game based on grind.

It was not based on grind when i bought it. That came later.

Vayne.8563:

Nope the writing analogy works perfectly. I submit a proposal for a book and the publisher accepts that proposal. While working on the book, I see something that’s there doesn’t really work. Most of the time it’s something minor, but sometimes it’s something major. I’ve had a book I’ve delivered so completely different from the synopsis I sold that you’d almost not know it was the same book. The publisher doesn’t care if the book is good and the book will sell.

The publisher you’re selling the book to is not the end-user. The advertising is not going to get to the end-user until the product is closer to being finalized and is thus more likely to accurately reflect what’s in the book. Also, the book is not going to change after the end-user has spent money because they’re buying the finished product. If we were discussing changes made by the writer before the book gets to the publisher with regard to GW2, we’d be talking about the arrangements between ANet and NCSoft, something we have no access to.

Books are a product. MMO’s are both a product and a service. Whether Anet was correct about what the game “needed” for financial success is irrelevant to the consumer. Some consumers are going to believe that the advertising should apply to the service as well as the product because it’s understood that an MMO is both a product and a service. They have every right to be upset if what was advertised changes, no matter what the reason. Ultimately the company has to do what they have to do, but that doesn’t mean the consumer is wrong to be upset.

To those who are saying Anet advertised a game that was going to be one thing and ended up another…sure. They did. Because there were unforseen circumstances revolving around people not playing the game they advertised.

So if they stayed true to form and the game died completely and couldn’t be updated, that would have helped you how? That would have been better for you, how?

Those of you not playing the game would not be playing the game either way. But those who don’t mind, or understand why it had to happen are STILL playing the game.

You might very well be playing a game that dies. Anet could have kept their word. But when you purchased the game, you didn’t buy an MMO you thought would be dead in six months either? Isn’t that a sort of “promise” too. That the game would continue and they would add to it? But without numbers, they couldn’t add to it. Not easily and not quickly. They’d have to lay off part of their staff as some of the big MMOs have done. And that means less content, and less fixes.

And everyone completely ignores the amount of times that Anet has used the word iteration. They had a blog post about it. They said it directly. If something doesn’t work, we change it, sometimes drastically. I mean that’s paraphrased but it’s what they said and it’s how artists often work. They try something, they see if it works and if it doesn’t they might cut the whole thing.

Not that might be hard to understand from a consumer point of view, but I understood when I was getting it that if things didn’t work things would change. I’d be pretty unhappy if the game didn’t do well because they stuck to a promise that killed the game.

Changing a plan due to a change in circumstance isn’t a lie. And I’m not thinking it’s a betrayal either. It’s what businesses do if they want to survive. It’s called adaptation.

Without gear progression of some kind, I believe this game would have failed. And how would that help those who now feel betrayed?

You know what?
Should Anet come with some numbers telling us : look, sales and income were dropping and we had to take hard decisions and forget about our initial goals; X% of the player base, the majority, was asking for vertical progression so we gave them what they asked in hopes of saving the game…

Well, I would bow and pass my way. I know their goal is to keep the game alive and produce income and it is just natural.

But here, they changed plans and vision of the game without explaining why apart that legendaries were too fast to obtain. But again, legendaries were just skins! People were grinding and farming for them, they surely would have farmed for more skins.

But without clear comunication we are here, moaning and feelign betrayed by a change that we don’t like. And as far as I see, and even if it is not representative, only one person in this thread has told that he liked the introduction of a new tier of stats and I have never seen a forum thread (might have missed it) telling ’Wow! Great! Thanks for a new tier of stats Anet!"

Almost no one seems to like it (in the forums).
Really sad decision I think.

Well its guildwars 2 not wow or eq or any other MMO its Guildwars 2 they doing their own thing and most of us are happy with that.

Goldrock.9076:

Well its guildwars 2 not wow or eq or any other MMO its Guildwars 2 they doing their own thing and most of us are happy with that.

Needs to be said over and over again unfortunately.

I think Anet is missing an important point here.
What was the thing that guaranteed the long success of GW1? No subscription AND no vertical progression. They were apart from other games and had their own niche. You could create your toon, log out, come back a month later or for an expansion and remain competitive.

Now, if someone stops a month or two in GW2 and comes back to find that his toon needs to grind for new armor and weapons he might as well go and look that other new MMO that comes out all shiny and new. Why stay in GW2 if it is just like any other MMO?

But well, this thread is sterile. They can’t go back now in ascended weapons if they don’t want to risk a riot from those that spent their time gettign them.
We can only hope they NEVER introduce ascended armors (yes, I know they will, but I can dream, can’t I?)

BeoErgon.9107:

I think Anet is missing an important point here.
What was the thing that guaranteed the long success of GW1? No subscription AND no vertical progression. They were apart from other games and had their own niche. You could create your toon, log out, come back a month later or for an expansion and remain competitive.

Now, if someone stops a month or two in GW2 and comes back to find that his toon needs to grind for new armor and weapons he might as well go and look that other new MMO that comes out all shiny and new. Why stay in GW2 if it is just like any other MMO?

But well, this thread is sterile. They can’t go back now in ascended weapons if they don’t want to risk a riot from those that spent their time gettign them.
We can only hope they NEVER introduce ascended armors (yes, I know they will, but I can dream, can’t I?)

You’re actually making an assumption that the success of Guild Wars 1 was because of no vertical progression. You can’t really back that up. It’s a theory only. Guild Wars 1 had a lot of unique things going for it, only one of which was no vertical progression.

In fact, you can’t even prove it wouldn’t have been more successful with vertical progression.

Yeah, I admit is an assumtion. I strongly believe it is because of those reasons.
Guilty about that.

BeoErgon.9107:

Yeah, I admit is an assumtion. I strongly believe it is because of those reasons.
Guilty about that.

I believe Guild Wars 1 would have lost many of the players it enjoyed. What I don’t know is with gear progression, how many would have joined who walked away because it didn’t have it.

Astralporing.1957:

Yes, you can sit in LA chatting with friends. Now, technically speaking, no other game is grindy either if you don’t want to grind.

. . . OR, you can play the game as intended with everyone else. =)

You can play the game just as much as anyone else, even if you don’t grind. You might have to wait a bit longer to do high level Fractals though.