Guild Wars 2

Many MMOs have healers, tanks and such but everyone that has played other MMOs will know that dps classes and dps builds are by far the most popular. I’ve seen in more than one MMO in past years where there would be a terrible shortage of healers and tanks. It can cause people to sometimes wait upward of an hour to run a dungeon or a raid because of having to wait in a queue for healers and tanks or spend time trying to find them for the party.

On Guild Wars 2 it truly doesn’t matter what classes everyone in the party uses, that really is a matter of preference. That seems to be what Anet wanted GW2 to be like so that everyone can run content without having to invest time looking for specific classes to be able to run the content they want to run.,

There isn’t a perfect compromise but there could be some ideas, however it’s extremely unlikely Anet would ever do it because it would improve a reasonable taxing overhaul to things in the game. Content could be modified to force the need for actual support roles but how many players would quit because they bought GW2 because it doesn’t force us to need support roles?

If Anet modified classes to be more support then how many people would stop using that class or just quit the game? Each MMO is supposed to be as unique as it can be and I think it’s great that GW2 has no support roles. Some content is just so easy that it really doesn’t matter but some content can force people to work together and overall do more to complete the content which in turn should be more fun and entertaining for most.

I’ve been there done that with the running my main as a healer on DC Universe Online, my main alt was a tank. Originally I decided to go healer after having raided with too many fail healers so I wanted to try it out in hopes of improving the chances of raids not failing and I got very good as a healer. When I got to be one of the best healers on the game it became boring when a 2nd healer was present. The raids were designed to need 2 healers but I was able to solo heal and did so to make the raids more entertaining.

That game was supposed to run 2 tanks in raids also but it was easy for tanks to solo tank. I just used DCUO as an example but there’s no need in me going on about that or any other MMO further since this is GW2 forums. My point of this is the healer class, probably more so than tank, is reasonable unpopular in MMOs. I know this doesn’t hold true for all MMOs but overall it does more times than not.

Let’s all be completely honest here. Let’s say Anet did modify whatever they had to to proper implement a more proper and useful healer role. This would require a massive overhaul in skills and adding more functions and it would really just be as taxing as creating an entire expansion just for that or they could add a new class devoted to healing which would probably not be very popular if it couldn’t dps.

While people enjoy having a healer heal them, nobody enjoys spending time looking for a healer for their party. The theme of healer roles works and it doesn’t work. Anet chose to be unique and not have full support roles. Now everyone can have the freedom to play how they want to play. There are not that many people that would enjoy running a healer as their main character.

Anyone that wants a healer is either in the minority or just wants a healer to babysit them in dungeons. This may not be what some want to read and some may disagree with it or deny it which is their choice. GW2 will very likely never have a heavy support class. Guardian is probably as close to that as GW2 will ever get. Everyone needs to work together and enjoy the content the game has to offer without the need to spend an hour finding a healer.

Every class can be a dps and provide reasonable support though. Each class has some useful skills that can benefit the entire party. I know it’s a matter of opinion but it really is best how it is.

I know this was a long post lol but hopefully some people will read it. Here is another reason it’s good there are no healers and tanks in GW2, I never have to spend time waiting on a specific class to run any dungeon I want to run. All the time saved by not having to wait gives me more time to do other things like get caught up a bit on some TV shows.

A Volcano.2510:

Does healing power affect regen? If not, why not?

ofc it does.

It even got changed a few months back. Historically it used the HP of the entity it was applied to. Now the applicators HP is used. ( try applying regen to an npc, then swapping to a clerics weapon)

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

tramwajarz.2369:

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

Na it don’t Trivialsze anything , healing power is somthing that helps you relax and notice thing you never noticed before, because your glued to your keyboard trying to avoid every bullet aimed at your head just so you can get a Rare.

if everyone in this game just got 150-400 healing power , yes sure events would be a little but slower but people would have a higher uptime of damage , i’ve seen events like the World bosses dead with 9mins remaining ect because everyone is damage,damage,damage , so taking some healing power doesn’t change a thing but adding in a extra 3mins.

you caqn play good or bad how ever much you like , thats why there is these players that go WvW with full tank gear and 800 in healing power they do easly wreak 3-5 players at a time and the build set up allows them to fight forever untill they make mistakes , thats one thing i;ve learned from this take dps stats meta jive is that you’ll only survive so long as you can avoid the attacks and HoT is going to bring more of that so you can dodge as much as you’d like and call it I play good healing power will become a more important stat in the future.

you’ll just have to wait that little longer.

there’s nothing wrong with playing relaxed, with buffed vit or hp, however relaxed playstyle should be slower (less rewarding) than hardcore playstyle.

If you want a hardcore play style ask Anet for a Hardcore Mode for dungeons just as they did in gw1 for the More experianced crowd looking for more challenging content but i’d think fractals was ment to cover that , though they could take that idea and make hardcore dungeons.

the open world should not be subject to Hardcore playing its a open world not a Game mode that requires Stat min/maxing , getting healing power to a point where it is useful , but not needed would be the perfect balance but as of right now the Enviroment in game does not require any form of healing power you can even get away without even using your 6 heal, where dodges and evades are enough to keep you alive because guess what PvE creatures don’t deal enough conditions.

now people have pretty much abbandoned the Toxic alliance events they have gone back to running 0 healing power , where in those events you needed some form of Reliable healing sources be it you or other player .

you could say running 0 healing power does not extend your core Life duration so you’ll have x amount of time before you’ll go down , increasing the requirement for some healing power will only benifit the game and allows more windows for contructive content that needs Healing power , Or ( extended life ) to survive a situation .

bit like the Wyvern in the HoT beta you get cornered by burning ground and you must pass through the flames quickly (while you only have 20% hp left) yes you could double dodge over it only to be downed by the next flaming breath attack as he swoops , or you could have healing power rather than 0 have 150-400 or 800 – or 1500 it gives you the chance to tacticly use the correct ability to gain regen? , or heal a chunck of hp to deal with the brunt of the on comming attack to Prevent death rather than take the hit and heal after .

with healing power with this 0 stat whats the point going on , means you can’t recover with one heal from 20% vs that newer content and then you’d have to risk death to survive a bit counter intuitive of healing is it not , all because no one took healing power as a stat .

at the stats core 0 healing power is enough for you and one charater alone , but fighting the new content in HoT , it was much more effective to have some healing stat rather than 0 to buy you time against those unpredictable unprecedented events or creatures.

all i can think of is this is new content in its entireity with much more depth that that of silverwastes and complexitiy that you’ll need to think of more than just your own survival because at times Anet did say you’ll need skills to beat certain creatures or events by learning the lanuages of other races in the jungle to gain said skills.

You’ll need or “MAKE THE CHOICE” To have some healing power to survive while running between waypoints , i’ll tell you this by god there are waypoints but there are lots of obstacles blocking your route and gliders you’ll have to plan your landing , you’ll never know where to land and or if you can land safely then escape.

please read the " make the choice"

again anet did say if you’ve got swiftness you can only just escape the dinos in the boarderlands (if your built for mobility you can outrun them) so i’d expect the same type of creatures in the PvE of HoT.

so yes the healing stat will become more important , just not right now.

Nice wall of text. Open world is already doable naked so there’s no forcing anyone to use certain builds.

fuzdragonwind.7219:

cont because limits…

thief: this is my black sheep, i stay away from it because of my zealous friends. that said, i ran crit self heal, almost worked, i must just suck though. i tried venoms, OMG BEST THING EVER NO SARCASM, like holy kitten sorry but everything yes with giving people might, extra conditions, and live stealing. o.o if only they weren’t so limited to just that, like they don’t stack for one thing.

…why not thief? because its only venoms and if allies don’t do anything, then everything is a “nope”

I heal people with my thief with
a) shadow refuge (which also removes conditions apperantly)
b) blast when a ranger or elementalist is around

For the latter I even invested in some zealot trinkets (it does show).

Edit: And btw: Signet of malice is a thing of beauty, you don’t need to change your traits, just your healing skill. It’s usually “Man and Jana hasn’t got a scratch again”. But allof this only works when you know the class and when to use what skill.

Nash.2681:

I think you fell to some common missconceptions about gw2 combat.
a) Zerker is not a build, it’s a stat combination. Nothing more, nothing less.
b) There’s already quite a lot of support in the game, buffing allies with boons (might, fury, aegis, protection, quickness, etc.) handling defiance stacks on bosses, wise usage of blinds and reflects- this are all supportive tasks, yet you don’t need any specific gear to use them. Support evolves from trait choices, utility skills and group composition. So if you want to play a “support” role, you already can do that. The only thing that is usually excluded is traditional healing.
In fact, the demonised zerker-meta aka root of all evil (intentional exageration) includes quite a lot support, shared among all party members, unfortunatly quite a lot of people refuse to accept it and rather beat the dead “omg all they do is stack and press 1” horse.

Even though there’s still a lot room for optimization regarding combat and rewards, I don’t see much sense in OPs suggestion.

No misconception on my part, but you do raise a valid point that has actually changed the way I feel about this topic in the opposite direction. Previously I thought it was only a problem of reward and event design. But I now think more needs to be changed to buff support builds and stats. The fact you can make an effective support build using stats that are designed to be for high damage builds, you have to ask ‘Why bother giving us other stat options in PvE, if all you need is zerker?’.

Personally, the kind of changes I would like to see are not buffing healing power, but making supportive skills, traits and boons scale more with the stats you choose, much like how conditions scale with condition damage. Currently, protection is a static 33% damage reduction, with only an increase (often negligable) in duration. But if it scaled up with some kind of supportive stat (healing or maybe a new stat called protection power?), then it may encourage the need for more supportive stats. For example, protection could start at a base of say 15% damage reduction and increases to 33% with more points in healing/protection power.

I also had an idea on how they could make aegis increase with healing/protection power. When applied by someone with high support stats, it would apply more than one stack, say up to 3 stacks. Therefore, it would effectively block more than 1 attack if applied by a player with more points in support stats. The stack max would be 3, but players with low support stats will not be able to apply aegis if there is already 1 or more stacks on the ally.

Offensive stat options, such as zerker, could increase the more offensive support options, might and vulnerability in a similar way. Might could start at a base +15 power & CD, and increase to +30 with more points in power. Vulnerability could remain at 1% per stack and increase to 2% per stack with more points in precision.

It is good that zerker builds can be self sufficient, I have no issue with that at all, but I personally do not think they should have the same support power as a player who has invested stats into support. I would love to see stats mean more than just more damage or healing numbers. I would like to see stats have more of an effect on all of the conditions and boons we can apply. Make stat choices mean more, then players may be more inclinded to try different options.

@ Rin. At that point one would make sure to have no more than 1 guardian per party. and well damage would be even essentially the same. Longer might duration? The point when “proper” zerker parties time blasting might stacks/ EA(PS) warrior/Ele*alone*or with thieves? No one has problems with might unless they dont do it.

Seems like a massive boon to “bads” though. Not only could they before do no dodge challenges. now they probably wouldnt even have to move during encounters.

The true problem is People have decided that you need zerker.

YOU DONT NEED ZERKER.l Its just faster. Thats it! An sprinter doest mean that marathon runners are crap. Just different.

fuzdragonwind.7219:

playing support is indeed passive even in an active game,

You don’t understand how this game works if you think playing support is passive. The fact that you don’t know how reflects work and think that aegis on a guardian “is just a bonus” confirms this.

What makes a support class such as the guardian really strong is the vast amount of active defenses that the class offers to the party. These active defenses are the very reason the Berserker meta exists. Without them we’d need more passive defenses (toughness/vitality/healingpower) and the Berserker meta wouldn’t exist, but because we have blocks, blinds, reflects and dodges (and plenty of them) we don’t need toughness/vitality/healingpower, meaning we can put all our stats in power/precision/ferocity for more DPS and better results.

Blocks, blinds and reflects are the bread-and-butter of any guardian and if you’re not using them to their fullest potential you’re doing it wrong.

Rin.1046:

I agree that it is great that in GW2 you do not need to have a healer in the group. However, it should still be just as rewarding to play a healing and supportive role, if that is what you prefer to do. I don’t think anyone here is asking for there to be healing in the traditional trinity sense, at least I am not asking for that. I am glad Anet done away with the hard trinity. But it would be nice to have more of a benefit to having them. I’m not saying they should be vital, but there should be events that would go smoother with supportive players in the group. And supportive characters should be rewarded just as much for their efforts as zerkers are for their damage.

At the moment the open world can be conquered by zerkers, and that does nothing to encourage build diversity. Hopefully HoT will offer some solutions to this issue.

I think the problem is that (outside of a very small percentage of people who like the role), the only way to really make healing roles viable is to make them essential (because otherwise why would groups bring a healer when 5 dps does the job just as well). And once you’ve made them essential, then you’ve shattered the “no roles” thing GW2 is trying to do.

If you want healers to matter, remove all skills number 6

tramwajarz.2369:

If you want healers to matter, remove all skills number 6

Even then healers would still not matter in good parties.

If you want healers to truly matter you need to bring back the traditional “holy trinity” (which is still being used in modern games for a reason).

@DonQuack & chemiclord – Both valid points.

It is a difficult situation really. If you make healing more needed, it runs the risk of going back to the old hard trinity, which I do not want. But if you do not reward other roles in open world PvE (which is where the biggest issue is) players will be reluctant to play other builds.

And I agree, DonQuack, the zerker meta, in PvE at least, is merely a perception, that has come from the speed run mindset.

I guess I just like the idea of our stats having more impact on the support we offer, whether it be offensive, controlling or defensive. I still think rewards need to be fixed, for open world events at least.

fuzdragonwind.7219:

I’d like to open up with that some people still insist or try to make 100% healer role play styles. I understand that that is not possible and its best to mix tactics and stats around for better to best results.
agreeing: there is no healer due to lack of trinity
However, event and combat credit for those that try to stay off to the side flinging support (healing, buffs, and non damage related effects) grow disappointed that they do not get that participation check, or if they do, its not frequent enough to be noticed. This is 50% hearsay, 50% myself.
not agreeing, YOU should make sure you tag yout targets, when you run lower power you will need more hits to tag your enemy

Lets look at healing power itself. In most respects, its exactly as power, only applies to just healing related skills. In a lesser aspect, skills have fairly low ratios, specially over time effects even though that is justified. When one person tries to heal self, and this is his or her first time playing, he expects the self heal to recover 75% of thier hp in dangerous situations and take 30 seconds to repeat. What currently happens is a 40% hp heal with very wide range of downtimes from 15 seconds to 45 OR a 80% heal over 3 to 6 seconds on a 40 to 60 seconds recharge.
well healing is used for scaling #6 heals, skilll based heales, vampiric healing, sigil healing, regen and water & blast combo
Next lets look at synergy stats. Toughness is favored for defensive importance and role, its a no brainer and it works together with healing power and vitality for increasing survival balancedly. However, healing cannot crit so precision and ferocity is limited to just damage. Then vitality doesn’t quite work in healing’s favor, more health TO heal after all, which would be fine if it wasn’t hard to “catch up” to begin with.
No, Boon duration will synergize with regen, power& condition dmg will be needed to function as to tag and in combat situations, toughness has a minor role and vitality has no use other then possibly extending your life on the battlefields, which is about the same thing why you are using healing. Vitality is useless and toughness is viable, as you can save people by filling their HP when running high toughness, and them losing them slowly as opposed to not being able to fill them and them spending them like there is no tomorrow with vitality…
Effect stacking is my final topic, there’s a comfortable amount of mixing around we can do… except for conditions but i have trouble keeping up with news and thats a completely different topic. A single guardian or elementalist fully dedicated on healing, can only at most heal 7% hp/second with combined sum of effects towards others. Less if passive and hearsay a bit more if active. I do not remember if those mentioning active combined healing took in account for cooldowns or not. I do know that the strongest single AoE utility or trait sourced heals recover about 4000 health to self (or 7000 to others) under maximum conditions.
This could be transfusion used by necro’s, transfusion used on a full clerics necro can heal up to 8000 health to 5 ppl, but it is a channeled skill. If you combine a SB thief and a staff ele, skill 5 on water can be used to deliver between 7200 and 10000 hp in 5 seconds

Continuing

[Gentle] Solutions, at least two out of following would help:

1. A heal in a certain area count as hitting mobs towards participation credit. If this already happens, then its unoticable for most people that have been complaining or battles are too fast (blame those that stick to “zerkers”).
   No. If you cannot do damage you have no use. No damage, no tag, no loot.
2. Enable healing to crit. This sounds strong but its nothing compared to some more zealous suggestions i’ve heard. Just grant half benefit of precision and fero, for balance related comfort.
   No they could increase scaling of healing by 25, 33% or maybe even 50%. but healing power is no damage skill.
3. Give everyone 10% vitality added to healing power, or 5% power and vitality is added to healing power. Why am I suggesting this? To give more stat spreading comfort and to help healing “catch up”, all while at same time being very small (max from vit is 270 rounded up from this alone).
   No just have people wanting to build to healing power add a fitting armor piece.
4. Increase all healing over time/trigger by 1%, all utility/trait based healing that can affect others by 5%, and self heals by 10%. (most likely lesser degree for final mention).
   Why? If you want to run support do so. you will select traits so wou will be able to heal

[Extreme] Solutions :

1. Remove ferocity and in its place give crit related stat for healing that isn’t over time (such as healing signet or regeneration boon). This would require a lot of work merging effects such as half of precision is old fero, and new fero is just a copy of precision in effects but for healing.
   I do not see the point. Whe have healing signet scale with healing power already, regeneration does so already.
2. Add half of player’s level to a multiplier for all healing. I’m not sure where this came from but sounds kind of high, reason its in this category.
   If he wants healing let him trait, or buy appropriate armor/runes/trinkets
3. Double all healing, this isn’t happening but its what i heard asked.
   why? if you want more healing build it
4. Remove healing power and use power for increasing healing effects. I can see where this is coming from but it breaks too many things, yet it’ll simply a lot in both good and bad ways.
   would instantly make any armor other then zerk/soldiers useless

Zealots = power/precision/healing: DPS healing
Clerics = healing/power/toughness: max healing stat/power
Apothecary healing power/toughness/condition: max healing/condi dmg
Nomad= toughness/healing/vitality: heal bunker.
Givers (armor)= toughess/ healing/boon duration: true support…. non viable.
Settlers= toughness / healing power / condition dmg: condition bunker with healing…

Shaman = vitality/healing power/condition dmg: I do not have a clue
magi = healing power/vitality/precision: I do not have a clue….

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fVAQNApeWl8ApXotCxYIEENRCBl5M+P2foFl4yA0AA-TxxDABM8EAIUJYlq/80+DLr8DgTBAe6DCAgAE6MAkCwrpWA-e

Full healing/tank/boon guard…. I doubt you are running this…. but it is nice..If you have at least a zealots so you have an actual DPS set as well and just compare…

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fVAQNApeWl8ApXotCxYIEENRCBl5M+P2foFl4yA0AA-TxBBABYp8DV9BA8EAUV9Ht2fghTBwZKBJFgz6tA-e

I run both armors though the builds tend to vary. I’ll be honest, zealots will hold out nearly as long as clerics as the boons you provide will keepyou alive in most circumstances except for very hostile environments, the 2000+ power for the zealots build will be enough to provide dmg compared to the clerics/nomads, BUT there are niche situations where clerics/nomads will be way better

IMHO all healing based builds would get viable instantly on release of the Keepers (ZEALOT) ascened trinket set…

Rin.1046:

the zerker meta, in PvE at least, is merely a perception, that has come from the speed run mindset.

It’s not just merely a perception. It is factually the best stat combination for the smoothest and most optimal dungeon runs, assuming you have a decent party comp and everyone in the party knows how to play their class and how to handle the encounters.

That doesn’t mean you can’t do decently smooth dungeon runs in Valkyrie armor or Knights armor, if you know how to play your class and how to handle the encounters then most certainly you can do smooth dungeon runs in almost any stat-combination, but,

the less your DPS, the slower your dungeon run will be and if the party DPS is really low you will get in trouble with some encounters (for example in AC p1 with the burrows where you have to protect Hodgin, if your party DPS really sucks you will have a lot of trouble with that encounter).

In Guild Wars 2 PvE, when it comes to stats, a good offense is the best defense.

Rin.1046:

It is a difficult situation really. If you make healing more needed, it runs the risk of going back to the old hard trinity, which I do not want. But if you do not reward other roles in open world PvE (which is where the biggest issue is) players will be reluctant to play other builds.

Well, what I will tell you is that by my experience, open world PvE, regardless of game, is a “all random, all dps” deal. One of the biggest grumbles among the player base in World of Warcraft pre-Wrath of the Lich King and the multiple build setup was that healers felt compelled to respec every time they wanted to do open world PvE because being a healer out there was (1) less efficient damage and (2) barely, if ever needed.

So, I’m exactly sure if that is something that CAN be fixed, or if it really should or needs to. It seems pretty inexorable to the MMO experience.

Rin.1046:

Nash.2681:

[see page 1]

No misconception on my part, but you do raise a valid point that has actually changed the way I feel about this topic in the opposite direction. Previously I thought it was only a problem of reward and event design. But I now think more needs to be changed to buff support builds and stats. The fact you can make an effective support build using stats that are designed to be for high damage builds, you have to ask ‘Why bother giving us other stat options in PvE, if all you need is zerker?’.[…]

Heh, tbh I just waited for that highlighted question, glad you put it on the table
I thought about this myself- “why are there so many stat combos when all you really need is zerk/sins?”. Well, I found an answer for myself. For PvP/WvW it’s quite obvious, since there’s way more variability and more different builds are actually usefull. For PvE again…. the answer I found might not be satisfying for everyone but to me it’s quite simple- training wheels and test dummies. Training wheels for those that don’t get along with zerk armor right away, test dummies for those trying out stuff for WvW/PvP.

About your suggestion: though I think your ideas have indeed some potential (existing stats could be used for that, e.g. thoughness for blocks, healing power for reg/heal, vitality for protection, etc.), I came down to the conclusion, that it won’t effect PvE as much as one might think. Good partys that already burst everything down in seconds will still do so, it doesn’t really matter wether aegis blocks 1, 2 or 3 attacks. Not so good partys with players that need some more defensive gear to get along get some more support, prbly making it even easier for them to get things done.

I don’t run my healing warrior in speed runs since I know that isn’t where she’s wanted/needed.

That being said, in WvW she offers up killer support for both healing and mobility and other buffs while doing condi cleanse or substantial area healing (depending on loadout) and puts in enough damage and CC to be both helpful AND get rewarded for being a part of the fight.

Nothing is stopping your healing build from actively fighting to get rewards. Support builds support, but it doesn’t mean they can’t throw a few punches.

Kronos.2560:

Brother Grimm.5176:

Asking to change the game so others NEED your support is not realistic in the least…..

I don’t think anyone here asked for that. At least I for one do not want to need a healer/support. What I would like to see is the ability to have a healer but not need one.
…..

That is EXACTLY what you are asking for in an indirect manner. If a healer isn’t needed, then why are they in the party? I get you WANT to play that way, but the other 4 players have every right to ask the question, “why?”, do they not?

The ability for a party to “HAVE” a healer has always been present and what you REALLY want is for the game to be changed so other want them in the party. I hate to break it to you, but that will never happen unless they are “needed”.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

tramwajarz.2369:

If you want healers to matter, remove all skills number 6

Even then healers would still not matter in good parties.

If you want healers to truly matter you need to bring back the traditional “holy trinity” (which is still being used in modern games for a reason).

Pretty much. Anet could just nerf base healing. So unless people put stats in healing power, they can’t heal.

Also nerf might stacking and give monster more hp. So people dont’ kill boss with full might icebow in a few second.

Would probably make fractal 60 interesting if Anet did it.

laokoko.7403:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

tramwajarz.2369:

If you want healers to matter, remove all skills number 6

Even then healers would still not matter in good parties.

If you want healers to truly matter you need to bring back the traditional “holy trinity” (which is still being used in modern games for a reason).

Pretty much. Anet could just nerf base healing. So unless people put stats in healing power, they can’t heal.

Also nerf might stacking and give monster more hp. So people dont’ kill boss with full might icebow in a few second.

Would probably make fractal 60 interesting if Anet did it.

- Now the optimal choice is zerker, but you can play with any stats. But you want to force people to play only with gear with healing power? Gear diversity much. What happen if I don’t have any healing power? I can’t use 1/10th of my skills and all those other skill and trait that give healing would be useless without the right gear?
- They just nerf might stacking less than 2 months ago, you want them to nerf it again? We can’t kill boss from fractal 50 in few seconds, niether several of the boss from Arah like Lupi. It’s normal dungeon that have some issue with that. It’s a content issue, nothing to do with might.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Kronos.2560:

Brother Grimm.5176:

Asking to change the game so others NEED your support is not realistic in the least…..

I don’t think anyone here asked for that. At least I for one do not want to need a healer/support. What I would like to see is the ability to have a healer but not need one.
…..

That is EXACTLY what you are asking for in an indirect manner. If a healer isn’t needed, then why are they in the party? I get you WANT to play that way, but the other 4 players have every right to ask the question, “why?”, do they not?

The ability for a party to “HAVE” a healer has always been present and what you REALLY want is for the game to be changed so other want them in the party. I hate to break it to you, but that will never happen unless they are “needed”.

This.

At what point does a class that does little else but provide support become an optimal option?

In games where they are optional but not needed to clear content, why use them when you can get by without?

In games where they are needed to clear content, the game cannot progress without them, which means people will wait around until a decent healer shows up.

There’s no middle ground for classes dedicated entirely to healing (when it comes to dungeons, and dungeons specifically). We either need you or we don’t, on any given content.

Making them viable would mean creating content which requires their presence, which would gate that content twice. On the back end, people that want to play that content will need a dedicated healer. On the front end, people that want to play dedicated healer will only be needed on that content.

It makes much more sense to just not force people into roles.

You can’t force the game to consider healing power builds optimal, as it stands now. They will work, youll be able to kill stuff, but on dungeons, and dungeons SPECIFICALLY you will not be optimal, if the party is either speedrunning or knows how to run that dungeon.

Healing specs are welcome in small-and-large scale WVW fights though.

Thaddeus.4891:

laokoko.7403:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

tramwajarz.2369:

If you want healers to matter, remove all skills number 6

Even then healers would still not matter in good parties.

If you want healers to truly matter you need to bring back the traditional “holy trinity” (which is still being used in modern games for a reason).

Pretty much. Anet could just nerf base healing. So unless people put stats in healing power, they can’t heal.

Also nerf might stacking and give monster more hp. So people dont’ kill boss with full might icebow in a few second.

Would probably make fractal 60 interesting if Anet did it.

- Now the optimal choice is zerker, but you can play with any stats. But you want to force people to play only with gear with healing power? Gear diversity much. What happen if I don’t have any healing power? I can’t use 1/10th of my skills and all those other skill and trait that give healing would be useless without the right gear?
- They just nerf might stacking less than 2 months ago, you want them to nerf it again? We can’t kill boss from fractal 50 in few seconds, niether several of the boss from Arah like Lupi. It’s normal dungeon that have some issue with that. It’s a content issue, nothing to do with might.

That’s why I suggest only do it for fractal 60. That’s for the hardcore people anyway.

I’m not telling you to use healing gear. I’m telling you to learn to dodge so you dont’ get hit.

The thing is the game is so easy already. And people are talking about buffing healing power etc. There was a video of a warrior dancing infront of subject alpha, and a staff water elementalist killing spider queen afk. You don’t need to buff healing power any more. (that was a while ago, and healing signet is nerfed a bit, and spider queen aoe in melee now).

tramwajarz.2369:

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

so yes the healing stat will become more important , just not right now.

Nice wall of text. Open world is already doable naked so there’s no forcing anyone to use certain builds.

please read the " make the choice" , never even mentioned forcing people. geez just read it correctly.

about thief: ah yeah the important shadow refuge, vital in vinewrath but its a bit of a crutch for some people that i was treading thin ground, also i written wall of text at 5am.
signet of malice if self heal, and yes it great.
blash finishers are anyone, thiefs can perform a blast finisher pretty often though yes. just i can’t rely on a water field in a random zerg or off alone by myself.
i trip over myself in general with thief, i’m scared to say anything.

about failing at guardian: um, lets see… blinding and blocking skill at correct times, yup i have that for myself across all characters. am i perfect or sometimes not paying attention? yes. in most situations general people just spam thier skills. only on an event or boss that needs a certain skill, is when people WAIT on using something. vinewrath’s second boss for example, bring reflect. but bringing reflect in a random situation? nope timing so far gone that its more effective to kill than to “pre prot” the field.

i suppose i became spoiled by the growing casualness. i (used to) hunt for combos between skills and thats about it. i’m forced to rely on myself more now days that when i want to focus on someone else that i meet out in wherever, that most things fall short.

some people in thread have been saying “ignore OP and just make traits and buffs more meaningful” well increasing healing power’s ratio on skills does that as some others have said. introducing new things such as “increased buff effect” would be interesting but take far too long for the devs to smoothen the game out for.

its almost like the stacking conditions issue. how about dynamically changing the maximum stacks of effects? they’re removing defiant to be a secondary hp bar, why not do reverse for conditions or certain buffs (stability was interesting change i’m neutral about), to like catch up with player count.

about personal issues with tagging, well gee from my experience, simply hitting a monster once (if first hit) or twice (if not first hit) counts as tagging a monster. in a medium to huge group of people doing an event, thats NOT happening as now you’re racing time because oops things dead the moment you click… wonder why =/

fuzdragonwind.7219:

about thief: ah yeah the important shadow refuge, vital in vinewrath…

SR does heal ~420 per pulse (second) for 5 seconds.

fuzdragonwind.7219:

signet of malice if self heal, and yes it great.

You were talking about Assassin’s reward, so I assumed you didn’t know about that skill

fuzdragonwind.7219:

blash finishers are anyone, thiefs can perform a blast finisher pretty often though yes. just i can’t rely on a water field in a random zerg or off alone by myself.

Thieves can spam blast finishers like no other class and yes you have to rely on others for a waterfield.
I “heal” people in no matter what scenario with my daggerstorm as they will rally when the mob they attacked is dead – works (nearly) every time. You just have to know when to use it. Ironically I almost never use Shadow refuge or Blinding powder on myself, I use it to rez others.

fuzdragonwind.7219:

i trip over myself in general with thief, i’m scared to say anything.

Yeah, sorry, favourite class and stuff, so I want people to know how great thieves are. And like I said, my zealot ring did make a difference healing wise. Btw, I heal people for ~6 – 10k with one waterfield and my blast spam. And I did so in pug wvw zergs on my first server². On the server I’m now I’m mostly spamming poison fields. I like to run with the zerg but I really shouldn’t as a glass cannon thief, so I wanted to become a zerg waterfield healing ele and learned that they’re about as “tanky” as my thief and well I can either heal my zerg with ele waterfields or destroy the healing of the enemy zerg with my poison thief – the result is about the same and I’m better on thief. The zerg then gets a daggerstorm on top of that though, just to make sure. Sometimes I then also daggerstorm through a waterfield nearby and heal my allies with that.

Edit: ² – I have been able to fully run with the zerg back in the day, not really possible since last april anymore although it became better with the stability nerf for whatever reason. But I don’t really have the patience to run with a zerg anymore, so wheras my first server knew I was around and spamming blast my new server(s) didn’t/don’t. We had the rule to concentrate on the tag so all skills went to the tag. I didn’t randomly fire my blasts, although I can spam them, I was likely hitting each waterfield at least once. That is another argument why I don’t blast spam anymore (there’s no “concentrate all skills on tag” on the server I am now) and we hardly have any eles around in our pugs anyway.

Edit³: Trying to unravel potentially confusing grammar.

All of this works in PvE as well, it’s just not really needed – I still blast each waterfield I see though – no matter where.

if Anet make healing and tanking a bit more interesting like a trinity build
then maby we don’t see only zerks builds its get to boring to see

only zerks and nothing else even in dungeons only zerks -.-
GW2 a game with so many builds but every1 is going zerk build

Healers in this game are not viable because the very few skills that can heal other players are often under powered. ArenaNet says its a design choice to avoid the holy trinity but I think there is also another reason.

Currently there is a heavy emphasis that in PvE damage is more viable than healing (and for good reasons). As a consequence in fights players will try to maximise damage while self sustaining. If a player was to excel in healing other players then they would no longer have to worry about surviving the fight thus making the game easier.

This would create a disparity between groups with a healer and groups without a healer.
Arenanet would have to either leave the content as it is or increase it’s difficulty making it unplayable without a healer. I think ArenaNet is afraid of this.

But I disagree with this. As players can switch there builds in mid game this means that each players in a group could swap roles at any time as long as each professions is given a viable alternate support role. Hence ArenaNet should crank up the heals.

Pants Are Dangerous.2079:

Healers in this game are not viable because the very few skills that can heal other players are often under powered. ArenaNet says its a design choice to avoid the holy trinity but I think there is also another reason.

Currently there is a heavy emphasis that in PvE damage is more viable than healing (and for good reasons). As a consequence in fights players will try to maximise damage while self sustaining. If a player was to excel in healing other players then they would no longer have to worry about surviving the fight thus making the game easier.

This would create a disparity between groups with a healer and groups without a healer.
Arenanet would have to either leave the content as it is or increase it’s difficulty making it unplayable without a healer. I think ArenaNet is afraid of this.

But I disagree with this. As players can switch there builds in mid game this means that each players in a group could swap roles at any time as long as each professions is given a viable alternate support role. Hence ArenaNet should crank up the heals.

No, because that would force people to use certain builds which is a crime against free will and diversity and Arena Net as far as I remember is all about allowing everyone to succeedd on his own rules.

Well, i do not always go zerk into dungeons…

I like going wih alternative builds. thats why we have -l80 EXP-

I know stacking
I know routines.
I know how to use a character with CC
I know how to use a character with reflecting
I know how to use a character with healing
I know how to use a character with conditions, yes conditions.

Since Sinister power/condi hybrids are quite workable…
You do not -NEED- a CC-er but in cof 2 it is very pleasant to have a guy with a hammer for the 3 igniters. you do not need somone with immobilizes, but it can be very usefull,

When running conditions I have killed the boss more then once using lingering conditions… you need to dodge or whatever and the ticks still proc…
If i have a 2 ele, 1 guard 1 mesmer party my sword sword warrior will still do ~4500 condition dmg a tick and 2500-4000 normal DPS using sword. (it hits fast, way faster then GS. moree like axe… though axed does 2-2.5 times the dmg, but no conditions.) and final trust can crit for 8-12k…

When playing other classes you notice the damage from builds not being meta is lower, but not absent. (Unless you have a full nomads troll)

The way it should work IMO is that healing power and boon duration should have better synergy than they do currently so that, while you can’t make a 100% healer per se, you should be able to make a close to 100% effective support build. Only the Guardian can come anywhere close to that currently and even then it’s dubious.

Einlanzer.1627:

The way it should work IMO is that healing power and boon duration should have better synergy than they do currently so that, while you can’t make a 100% healer per se, you should be able to make a close to 100% effective support build. Only the Guardian can come anywhere close to that currently and even then it’s dubious.

and what 100% support build does better than e.g. normal build traited and slotted with appropriate utilities?

tramwajarz.2369:

Einlanzer.1627:

The way it should work IMO is that healing power and boon duration should have better synergy than they do currently so that, while you can’t make a 100% healer per se, you should be able to make a close to 100% effective support build. Only the Guardian can come anywhere close to that currently and even then it’s dubious.

and what 100% support build does better than e.g. normal build traited and slotted with appropriate utilities?

dont you read english? he said closer to 100% and he said better Synergy NOT better as in more effective.. take a break man think your comment through.

tramwajarz.2369:

Einlanzer.1627:

The way it should work IMO is that healing power and boon duration should have better synergy than they do currently so that, while you can’t make a 100% healer per se, you should be able to make a close to 100% effective support build. Only the Guardian can come anywhere close to that currently and even then it’s dubious.

and what 100% support build does better than e.g. normal build traited and slotted with appropriate utilities?

That’s the point. Almost all support currently is tied up with offense, which is weird. Support should be better distributed and balanced so that it would be feasible to make effective non-DPS builds.

I see it being 4 soft roles (or specialties) – dps, mitigation, boons, control. You should at baseline be good at any 2 of those roles, with some ability to hybridize into more and end up with at least a moderately effective character. A support character would be someone who was heavily focused on healing and boons, or healing and control.

Granted, it would be difficult to balance, but they could do a much better job than they have to this point.

Einlanzer.1627:

tramwajarz.2369:

Einlanzer.1627:

The way it should work IMO is that healing power and boon duration should have better synergy than they do currently so that, while you can’t make a 100% healer per se, you should be able to make a close to 100% effective support build. Only the Guardian can come anywhere close to that currently and even then it’s dubious.

and what 100% support build does better than e.g. normal build traited and slotted with appropriate utilities?

That’s the point. Almost all support currently is tied up with offense, which is weird. Support should be better distributed and balanced so that it would be feasible to make effective non-DPS builds.

I see it being 4 soft roles (or specialties) – dps, mitigation, boons, control. You should at baseline be good at any 2 of those roles, with some ability to hybridize into more and end up with at least a moderately effective character. A support character would be someone who was heavily focused on healing and boons, or healing and control.

Granted, it would be difficult to balance, but they could do a much better job than they have to this point.

But I like to be able to do everything with any class I’m using?
I like to solo stuff, I like to heal, support, kill without looking at someone in my party saying “YO; DO YOUR JOB!!”

Jana.6831:

Einlanzer.1627:

tramwajarz.2369:

Einlanzer.1627:

The way it should work IMO is that healing power and boon duration should have better synergy than they do currently so that, while you can’t make a 100% healer per se, you should be able to make a close to 100% effective support build. Only the Guardian can come anywhere close to that currently and even then it’s dubious.

and what 100% support build does better than e.g. normal build traited and slotted with appropriate utilities?

That’s the point. Almost all support currently is tied up with offense, which is weird. Support should be better distributed and balanced so that it would be feasible to make effective non-DPS builds.

I see it being 4 soft roles (or specialties) – dps, mitigation, boons, control. You should at baseline be good at any 2 of those roles, with some ability to hybridize into more and end up with at least a moderately effective character. A support character would be someone who was heavily focused on healing and boons, or healing and control.

Granted, it would be difficult to balance, but they could do a much better job than they have to this point.

But I like to be able to do everything with any class I’m using?
I like to solo stuff, I like to heal, support, kill without looking at someone in my party saying “YO; DO YOUR JOB!!”

What I’m talking about would not disrupt that. If you like to do a little of everything, then you’re hybridizing your build in the game currently instead of focusing too much on any one area. You’d still be able to do that in what I proposed above.

Einlanzer.1627:

Jana.6831:

Einlanzer.1627:

tramwajarz.2369:

Einlanzer.1627:

The way it should work IMO is that healing power and boon duration should have better synergy than they do currently so that, while you can’t make a 100% healer per se, you should be able to make a close to 100% effective support build. Only the Guardian can come anywhere close to that currently and even then it’s dubious.

and what 100% support build does better than e.g. normal build traited and slotted with appropriate utilities?

That’s the point. Almost all support currently is tied up with offense, which is weird. Support should be better distributed and balanced so that it would be feasible to make effective non-DPS builds.

I see it being 4 soft roles (or specialties) – dps, mitigation, boons, control. You should at baseline be good at any 2 of those roles, with some ability to hybridize into more and end up with at least a moderately effective character. A support character would be someone who was heavily focused on healing and boons, or healing and control.

Granted, it would be difficult to balance, but they could do a much better job than they have to this point.

But I like to be able to do everything with any class I’m using?
I like to solo stuff, I like to heal, support, kill without looking at someone in my party saying “YO; DO YOUR JOB!!”

What I’m talking about would not disrupt that. If you like to do a little of everything, then you’re hybridizing your build in the game currently instead of focusing too much on any one area. You’d still be able to do that in what I proposed above.

No, the trick is that I don’t have to spec into anything to do everything. I’m pure dps and can still heal, still give boons, still support – and I think that’s great.

Jana.6831:

Einlanzer.1627:

Jana.6831:

Einlanzer.1627:

tramwajarz.2369:

Einlanzer.1627:

The way it should work IMO is that healing power and boon duration should have better synergy than they do currently so that, while you can’t make a 100% healer per se, you should be able to make a close to 100% effective support build. Only the Guardian can come anywhere close to that currently and even then it’s dubious.

and what 100% support build does better than e.g. normal build traited and slotted with appropriate utilities?

That’s the point. Almost all support currently is tied up with offense, which is weird. Support should be better distributed and balanced so that it would be feasible to make effective non-DPS builds.

I see it being 4 soft roles (or specialties) – dps, mitigation, boons, control. You should at baseline be good at any 2 of those roles, with some ability to hybridize into more and end up with at least a moderately effective character. A support character would be someone who was heavily focused on healing and boons, or healing and control.

Granted, it would be difficult to balance, but they could do a much better job than they have to this point.

But I like to be able to do everything with any class I’m using?
I like to solo stuff, I like to heal, support, kill without looking at someone in my party saying “YO; DO YOUR JOB!!”

What I’m talking about would not disrupt that. If you like to do a little of everything, then you’re hybridizing your build in the game currently instead of focusing too much on any one area. You’d still be able to do that in what I proposed above.

No, the trick is that I don’t have to spec into anything to do everything. I’m pure dps and can still heal, still give boons, still support – and I think that’s great.

That is also my point and I agree completely. Spec goes only for gear. Gear is not a build. Traits and skills are build. Gear can only buff some choices you made while making a build.

Jana.6831:

Einlanzer.1627:

Jana.6831:

Einlanzer.1627:

tramwajarz.2369:

Einlanzer.1627:

The way it should work IMO is that healing power and boon duration should have better synergy than they do currently so that, while you can’t make a 100% healer per se, you should be able to make a close to 100% effective support build. Only the Guardian can come anywhere close to that currently and even then it’s dubious.

and what 100% support build does better than e.g. normal build traited and slotted with appropriate utilities?

That’s the point. Almost all support currently is tied up with offense, which is weird. Support should be better distributed and balanced so that it would be feasible to make effective non-DPS builds.

I see it being 4 soft roles (or specialties) – dps, mitigation, boons, control. You should at baseline be good at any 2 of those roles, with some ability to hybridize into more and end up with at least a moderately effective character. A support character would be someone who was heavily focused on healing and boons, or healing and control.

Granted, it would be difficult to balance, but they could do a much better job than they have to this point.

But I like to be able to do everything with any class I’m using?
I like to solo stuff, I like to heal, support, kill without looking at someone in my party saying “YO; DO YOUR JOB!!”

What I’m talking about would not disrupt that. If you like to do a little of everything, then you’re hybridizing your build in the game currently instead of focusing too much on any one area. You’d still be able to do that in what I proposed above.

No, the trick is that I don’t have to spec into anything to do everything. I’m pure dps and can still heal, still give boons, still support – and I think that’s great.

I don’t think that’s a good thing and I don’t see how anyone can argue that it is. If someone who specs purely into DPS can do everything else, what is the point of spec’ing into anything but DPS? That’s the problem that the majority of the community is complaining about.

You should be able to do a little of everything regardless of spec, but you shouldn’t be really good at everything when spec’ing into DPS.

Einlanzer.1627:

Jana.6831:

Einlanzer.1627:

Jana.6831:

Einlanzer.1627:

tramwajarz.2369:

Einlanzer.1627:

The way it should work IMO is that healing power and boon duration should have better synergy than they do currently so that, while you can’t make a 100% healer per se, you should be able to make a close to 100% effective support build. Only the Guardian can come anywhere close to that currently and even then it’s dubious.

and what 100% support build does better than e.g. normal build traited and slotted with appropriate utilities?

That’s the point. Almost all support currently is tied up with offense, which is weird. Support should be better distributed and balanced so that it would be feasible to make effective non-DPS builds.

I see it being 4 soft roles (or specialties) – dps, mitigation, boons, control. You should at baseline be good at any 2 of those roles, with some ability to hybridize into more and end up with at least a moderately effective character. A support character would be someone who was heavily focused on healing and boons, or healing and control.

Granted, it would be difficult to balance, but they could do a much better job than they have to this point.

But I like to be able to do everything with any class I’m using?
I like to solo stuff, I like to heal, support, kill without looking at someone in my party saying “YO; DO YOUR JOB!!”

What I’m talking about would not disrupt that. If you like to do a little of everything, then you’re hybridizing your build in the game currently instead of focusing too much on any one area. You’d still be able to do that in what I proposed above.

No, the trick is that I don’t have to spec into anything to do everything. I’m pure dps and can still heal, still give boons, still support – and I think that’s great.

I don’t think that’s a good thing and I don’t see how anyone can argue that it is. If someone who specs purely into DPS can do everything else, what is the point of spec’ing into anything but DPS? That’s the problem that the majority of the community is complaining about.

You should be able to do a little of everything regardless of spec, but you shouldn’t be really good at everything when spec’ing into DPS.

But this is the philosophy of GW2. Every build is a winner. It is clear to me from day 1. Changing it would make it a different game ending up with exodus of players.

tramwajarz.2369:

Einlanzer.1627:

Jana.6831:

Einlanzer.1627:

Jana.6831:

Einlanzer.1627:

tramwajarz.2369:

Einlanzer.1627:

The way it should work IMO is that healing power and boon duration should have better synergy than they do currently so that, while you can’t make a 100% healer per se, you should be able to make a close to 100% effective support build. Only the Guardian can come anywhere close to that currently and even then it’s dubious.

and what 100% support build does better than e.g. normal build traited and slotted with appropriate utilities?

That’s the point. Almost all support currently is tied up with offense, which is weird. Support should be better distributed and balanced so that it would be feasible to make effective non-DPS builds.

I see it being 4 soft roles (or specialties) – dps, mitigation, boons, control. You should at baseline be good at any 2 of those roles, with some ability to hybridize into more and end up with at least a moderately effective character. A support character would be someone who was heavily focused on healing and boons, or healing and control.

Granted, it would be difficult to balance, but they could do a much better job than they have to this point.

But I like to be able to do everything with any class I’m using?
I like to solo stuff, I like to heal, support, kill without looking at someone in my party saying “YO; DO YOUR JOB!!”

What I’m talking about would not disrupt that. If you like to do a little of everything, then you’re hybridizing your build in the game currently instead of focusing too much on any one area. You’d still be able to do that in what I proposed above.

No, the trick is that I don’t have to spec into anything to do everything. I’m pure dps and can still heal, still give boons, still support – and I think that’s great.

I don’t think that’s a good thing and I don’t see how anyone can argue that it is. If someone who specs purely into DPS can do everything else, what is the point of spec’ing into anything but DPS? That’s the problem that the majority of the community is complaining about.

You should be able to do a little of everything regardless of spec, but you shouldn’t be really good at everything when spec’ing into DPS.

But this is the philosophy of GW2. Every build is a winner. It is clear to me from day 1. Changing it would make it a different game ending up with exodus of players.

No it wouldn’t. Most players do not enjoy the current PvE dynamics which is why the game has steadily hemorrhaged players from day one. It simply is not compelling when you don’t have meaningful choices to make when building a character that fits into a party dynamic.

Note that I understand the distinction between builds and stats. Also note that I am not an advocate for the classical trinity, which I believe to be overly simplistic and outdated. With that out of the way, there are essentially two problems with the design of GW2:

1.) DPS is over-emphasized in the distribution of available stats. Healing Power doesn’t scale well enough, and there are inadequate sources for improvements to boon and control effects. It doesn’t make sense have so many different stat combinations affecting so many different things but for only one of them to be meta because it’s overtly more effective and easier to maximize.

2.) Support and control are both coupled too strongly with offense for all professions, and there are essentially no drawbacks to “building” around DPS and just riding with wind with secondary effects – in fact, it’s more effective than doing anything else. Support and control effects should have a stronger presence outside of offense so that players have a viable option of building around healing, support, and control and having an effective character that can contribute well in a party.

Einlanzer.1627:

Most players do not enjoy the current PvE dynamics which is why the game has steadily hemorrhaged players from day one.

I stopped reading at this point.
Data. Now.

tramwajarz.2369:

Einlanzer.1627:

Most players do not enjoy the current PvE dynamics which is why the game has steadily hemorrhaged players from day one.

I stopped reading at this point.
Data. Now.

It’s intuitively obvious – the game’s core community and dev attention centers around PvP when player numbers have plummeted since launch, and they fired the dungeon guy with no attention given to dungeons in well over a year due to dungeons not being very popular among the player base.

You obviously aren’t open-minded to have this discussion, though, so I’m not sure why I’m bothering.

So you have no data so your claims of “most players” not liking anything has no evidence. That’s pathetic.

Einlanzer.1627:

Jana.6831:

Einlanzer.1627:

Jana.6831:

Einlanzer.1627:

tramwajarz.2369:

Einlanzer.1627:

The way it should work IMO is that healing power and boon duration should have better synergy than they do currently so that, while you can’t make a 100% healer per se, you should be able to make a close to 100% effective support build. Only the Guardian can come anywhere close to that currently and even then it’s dubious.

and what 100% support build does better than e.g. normal build traited and slotted with appropriate utilities?

That’s the point. Almost all support currently is tied up with offense, which is weird. Support should be better distributed and balanced so that it would be feasible to make effective non-DPS builds.

I see it being 4 soft roles (or specialties) – dps, mitigation, boons, control. You should at baseline be good at any 2 of those roles, with some ability to hybridize into more and end up with at least a moderately effective character. A support character would be someone who was heavily focused on healing and boons, or healing and control.

Granted, it would be difficult to balance, but they could do a much better job than they have to this point.

But I like to be able to do everything with any class I’m using?
I like to solo stuff, I like to heal, support, kill without looking at someone in my party saying “YO; DO YOUR JOB!!”

What I’m talking about would not disrupt that. If you like to do a little of everything, then you’re hybridizing your build in the game currently instead of focusing too much on any one area. You’d still be able to do that in what I proposed above.

No, the trick is that I don’t have to spec into anything to do everything. I’m pure dps and can still heal, still give boons, still support – and I think that’s great.

I don’t think that’s a good thing and I don’t see how anyone can argue that it is. If someone who specs purely into DPS can do everything else, what is the point of spec’ing into anything but DPS? That’s the problem that the majority of the community is complaining about.

You should be able to do a little of everything regardless of spec, but you shouldn’t be really good at everything when spec’ing into DPS.

Same applies as I mentioned above about gear- it’s training wheels. If you’re a dedicated player knowing your class and the encounters, the game rewards you with the ability to spec and gear offensivly, thus getting things done faster. If you’re not (yet) that good, the game still offers you the possibility to spec and gear more defensivly and still get things done.
As soon as one gets rid of thinking in traditional RPG patterns, you will see that there’s a ton of support in GW2 you can do. Just the way you do it is quite different- no manualy selecting of team-members and using a skill on them but active positioning and doing the right things at the right time (giving aegis, using blinds, interrupting a key-skill, executing a combo-field). Just because there’s no big message on the screen like “Congratulations! Your aegis just prevented [insert party member names] from going into downstate!” doesn’t mean you did no support.

Btw.- it’s always a bad idea to claim speaking for the majority of the community…

tramwajarz.2369:

So you have no data so your claims of “most players” not liking anything has no evidence. That’s pathetic.

You mean other than the fact that Anet doesn’t support dungeons because nobody plays them, and that poor PvE is sited by a large number of both current and former players?

Einlanzer.1627:

tramwajarz.2369:

Einlanzer.1627:

Most players do not enjoy the current PvE dynamics which is why the game has steadily hemorrhaged players from day one.

I stopped reading at this point.
Data. Now.

It’s intuitively obvious – the game’s core community and dev attention centers around PvP when player numbers have plummeted since launch, and they fired the dungeon guy with no attention given to dungeons in well over a year due to dungeons not being very popular among the player base.

You obviously aren’t open-minded to have this discussion, though, so I’m not sure why I’m bothering.

So, open-minded equals “agrees with Einlanzer?”

Every MMO hemorrhages players over time. What evidence do you have that lower player numbers in GW2 are due to players not enjoying the PvE dynamics, or that “most players” do not enjoy them? Everyone I know who has left did so for two other reasons: lack of content or dissatisfaction with PvP. I’m open minded, but I’m not gullible. Prove your assertions — or don’t use them as justifications.

Einlanzer.1627:

tramwajarz.2369:

So you have no data so your claims of “most players” not liking anything has no evidence. That’s pathetic.

You mean other than the fact that Anet doesn’t support dungeons because nobody plays them, and that poor PvE is sited by a large number of both current and former players?

I agree that Anet doesnt support dungeons. The rest of this is your speculation supported with 0 data, 0 evidence, 0 quotes. We dont know why they do this, we can only guess. The difference is I’m not trying to make such silly assumptions as you do and sell them as facts.

What I can tell – the game is selling, new players are showing up, some people go, some people stay. The game is not scrapped from production, therefore it must be doing good the way it is which means a complete revamp and change of direction you’re suggesting is like saying to those who like current state “f*** you” and gamble if more players stay or leave.

If you don’t like how the game works you should change the game. You can suggest some tweaks, improvements, but suggesting a combat/gear overhaul is ridiculous. It’s like making a new game.

Like I said Zealots allows for acombat healer, a REAL one…

Theory crating: (impossible due to missing trinkets)

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fFAQFAWnMISLD20AOOAdEGADwIHDeBfQRBgyDhbQPA-TxxDABM8AA6UHwnq/80+DAcBA4SJYoK/IFgz6tA-e

food could be changed for delicious riceballs, adding a further 10% to allies… with a minor los to precision…
And camp wateerrrrrr……for soothing mist…
spam 1 for nice 1000-1200 healing to allies,
water 5+ blast for another nice blast(s, max 6) 1.8k and ~10 secs of regen…
skill 3+blast for instant 4.8k+1.8k health
swapping to water for a insta heal
and last but not least dodging or cleansing wave eaxh 10 seconds

IndigoSundown.5419:

Einlanzer.1627:

tramwajarz.2369:

Einlanzer.1627:

Most players do not enjoy the current PvE dynamics which is why the game has steadily hemorrhaged players from day one.

I stopped reading at this point.
Data. Now.

It’s intuitively obvious – the game’s core community and dev attention centers around PvP when player numbers have plummeted since launch, and they fired the dungeon guy with no attention given to dungeons in well over a year due to dungeons not being very popular among the player base.

You obviously aren’t open-minded to have this discussion, though, so I’m not sure why I’m bothering.

So, open-minded equals “agrees with Einlanzer?”

Every MMO hemorrhages players over time. What evidence do you have that lower player numbers in GW2 are due to players not enjoying the PvE dynamics, or that “most players” do not enjoy them? Everyone I know who has left did so for two other reasons: lack of content or dissatisfaction with PvP. I’m open minded, but I’m not gullible. Prove your assertions — or don’t use them as justifications.

You’re doing nothing different than I am. You are simply assuming the veracity of the claim that everyone loves the current status quo. Let’s just acquiesce that neither of us is going on anything but logic and intuition and instead focus on a more productive and thought provoking discussion regarding different ways roles could be handled in the game.

It is worth noting that they have already stated they are making some overhauls to various game systems to support more build diversity with HoT, so this is not a useless discussion. The mechanics of the game are not static and will evolve.

Einlanzer.1627:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Einlanzer.1627:

tramwajarz.2369:

Einlanzer.1627:

Most players do not enjoy the current PvE dynamics which is why the game has steadily hemorrhaged players from day one.

I stopped reading at this point.
Data. Now.

It’s intuitively obvious – the game’s core community and dev attention centers around PvP when player numbers have plummeted since launch, and they fired the dungeon guy with no attention given to dungeons in well over a year due to dungeons not being very popular among the player base.

You obviously aren’t open-minded to have this discussion, though, so I’m not sure why I’m bothering.

So, open-minded equals “agrees with Einlanzer?”

Every MMO hemorrhages players over time. What evidence do you have that lower player numbers in GW2 are due to players not enjoying the PvE dynamics, or that “most players” do not enjoy them? Everyone I know who has left did so for two other reasons: lack of content or dissatisfaction with PvP. I’m open minded, but I’m not gullible. Prove your assertions — or don’t use them as justifications.

You’re doing nothing different than I am. You are simply assuming the veracity of the claim that everyone loves the current status quo. Let’s just acquiesce that neither of us has hard data backing up our claims and focus instead on a more productive and thought provoking discussion about possible ways roles could be handled in the game.

The fact that game isn’t bankrupt is a fact of being succesful the way it is.