Guild Wars 2

Amiron.1067:

And this right here is the issue. People see certain stat combinations as “training wheels”. That should never be the case. Every stat combination should be meaningful and add to the gameplay, not act as some sort of stepping stone to the almighty stat combination of power, precision, and ferocity. When one stat combination rules all, there is a clear issue in game design.

The part I bolded is your subjective opinion, and not factual statement. The faster you come to understand that the happier you’ll be.

Here are some true facts for you though…

1. Tanky gear in PvE might not be “training wheels” but it is a “security blanket.”
2. This is clearly intended based on self-evident trends in how players approach the game as well as developer comments.
3, For every person who, like you, does not enjoy the game’s non-trinity active combat system, there are AT LEAST as many who do.
4. Anet was quite clear in the lead up to this game that there would be no defined roles and every character would have to contribute DPS, support and control. This is, accurately enough, exactly the game they delivered.

I’m glad you are passionate about the game, but the game is what the game is. You are significantly better off embracing the game combat system for what it is than spending time worrying about what it is not. If what the game is not is too troubling for you to continue, I won’t begrudge you to find a more traditional trinity MMO that allows you to role play the tank or healer you want to be. But again, we enjoy Guild Wars 2 and enjoy the combat system as designed and implemented by Anet. Please stop advocating that our fun be destroyed for your roleplaying benefit.

Sylent.3165:

So I’ve read a lot of posts about how this game doesn’t have the trinity in the game which is a great thing. However it seems the players themselves made a trinity. Warrior, guardian, elementalist.

This is not a trinity. It’s DPS with DPS buffs, DPS with mass AoE immunity, and DPS with both of those as well as enemy debuffs. It’s still all DPS. The reason some classes are ignored is that they don’t do as much DPS and/or their buffs are already covered in a better manner by the others.

The elimination of the trinity system was an attempt to fix something that wasn’t really broken, in my opinion. Some players hated having to rely on healers, so they got their wish. The flip side of this is that players who actually enjoyed being in supporting roles are now forced to DPS or find another game. Whether or not you’re happy about this probably depends on which type of player you were.

Personally I was never all that excited about eliminating the trinity system. The trinity system allows players to focus on what they enjoy most. That’s why most games have it.

Sylent.3165:

Thoughts? And again yes Premade parties are fine, but a dungeon finder queue can be for everyone else.

As usual, these complaints always break down to, “I want to wear any gear I prefer and be able to waltz into the LFG and get a party right away, without having to go through the monumental effort of typing, ‘anything goes group’.”

xDudisx.5914:

Condi gear really good at wvw?! All the gvg and zerging meta is power based. Conditions only work in small scale roaming and spvp.

And roaming isn’t WvW?? Anyway, like I said condition is a problem in its current stats that need to be address and fix. But its not because one aspect of the game need a fix that everything need to be changed, especially since a lot of ppl like the general direction of the game and only want small change. Oppose to you that advocate a trinity game.

Amiron.1067:

And this right here is the issue. People see certain stat combinations as “training wheels”. That should never be the case. Every stat combination should be meaningful and add to the gameplay, not act as some sort of stepping stone to the almighty stat combination of power, precision, and ferocity. When one stat combination rules all, there is a clear issue in game design.

You keep bringing up WvW, but if you didn’t notice, I was talking about PvE instances. And even in WvW, berserker is still the meta in large zergs.

Every stat combination should be meaningful and add to the gameplay is your opinion. In life you always have different option and nothing make sure that they all are equal. Some stats are powerful in pvp, other in spvp, other in open world other in dungeon. If they could add more good choice in the mix (aka Sinister in dungeon) that would be nice, they going out of their with the goal of making all stat combinaison equal will just destroy the game, if its even possible to attempt.

Fair enough for WvW. You talk about PvE, so I said what the purpose of defensive gear and condition gear. But what the hell are you talking about with your zerker gear in large zerg? Soldier is the meta in WvW zerg. Some profession can use zerker gear, but that’s dangerous are rarely apply on a large scale by guild that do gvg. Zerker have its place in WvW zerg, but that’s definitively not the meta lol.

Removing the holy trinity was a big fail. It’s the reason you get such amazing game play like stacking in a corner to kill a boss.

Bernie.8674:

Sylent.3165:

So I’ve read a lot of posts about how this game doesn’t have the trinity in the game which is a great thing. However it seems the players themselves made a trinity. Warrior, guardian, elementalist.

This is not a trinity. It’s DPS with DPS buffs, DPS with mass AoE immunity, and DPS with both of those as well as enemy debuffs. It’s still all DPS. The reason some classes are ignored is that they don’t do as much DPS and/or their buffs are already covered in a better manner by the others.

The elimination of the trinity system was an attempt to fix something that wasn’t really broken, in my opinion. Some players hated having to rely on healers, so they got their wish. The flip side of this is that players who actually enjoyed being in supporting roles are now forced to DPS or find another game. Whether or not you’re happy about this probably depends on which type of player you were.

Personally I was never all that excited about eliminating the trinity system. The trinity system allows players to focus on what they enjoy most. That’s why most games have it.

The bolded is absolutely untrue. I’m one of those people, I like playing roles that are more about supporting your team than simply doing what you do yourself.

What people don’t seem to understand is that you can still support without tanking or being an overpowered healer.

Aegis, blinds, reflects, stability, protection, and condi cleanses are absolutely amazing. There’s a reason people call guards " PUG carriers". Mesmers are also huge in that. I was in an Arah path a while back, warrior with less than 1k ap, pretty darn new to the game. Came in without any knowledge of Lupi, running an Axe+Axe build. Should have died. Well… he didn’t. We had 2 guards and a mesmer. Every projectile was blocked. Every swipe was covered by an Aegis and condi cleanse. And he was tanky enough to survive the lift attack. The rest of us had a good laugh after at the fact that we were able to keep this guy up even though he knew nothing about what he was doing.

If that’s not support, I don’t know what is…

Support in GW2 is more about the nullification of damage than healing. That doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

The big difference between this game and trinities is not that you can’t play different roles, but that you can’t be a one trick pony, everyone needs to both do damage and keep themselves alive, and if you want to be good, using your tools to help others do the same.

Nat.4029:

Removing the holy trinity was a big fail. It’s the reason you get such amazing game play like stacking in a corner to kill a boss.

They changed that 6 months ago, get over it. Stacking in a corner shouldn’t be use in most fight now.

Nat.4029:

Removing the holy trinity was a big fail. It’s the reason you get such amazing game play like stacking in a corner to kill a boss.

As opposed to stacking around a tank to kill a boss?

Removing trinity isn’t the fail. So far, the devs haven’t pushed what a non-trinity game can do, because much of their design thought is still rooted in trinity combat and gimmick monolith bosses.

Nat.4029:

Removing the holy trinity was a big fail. It’s the reason you get such amazing game play like stacking in a corner to kill a boss.

it is not just that… also resurrecting in combat, downed state, dodges etc.

There is stacking in games with trinity too. Everyone just “stack” behind boss Stacking is normal.

Soloing out in the world and exploring is great in GW2. Team content just isn’t fun to me. Maybe it’s been improved since the last time I played. I just enjoy the Trinity. I loved healing with my monk back in the day and healing with my Paladin in WoW. The most fun I’ve ever had in a game was running around with a buddy and leveling on a PvP server in WoW. Guild Wars missions and elite areas were so much fun with friends. I just haven’t ever gotten that with GW2.

Nat.4029:

Soloing out in the world and exploring is great in GW2. Team content just isn’t fun to me. Maybe it’s been improved since the last time I played. I just enjoy the Trinity. I loved healing with my monk back in the day and healing with my Paladin in WoW. The most fun I’ve ever had in a game was running around with a buddy and leveling on a PvP server in WoW. Guild Wars missions and elite areas were so much fun with friends. I just haven’t ever gotten that with GW2.

And its ok. Trinity is obviously a good system since so much ppl like to play it. But that’s not the only system that can exist and be popular and GW2 is the proof. Like trinity is not love by everybody, gw2 system is not love by everybody. Both system have ppl that love to play them and that’s what important.

Jerus.4350:

Bernie.8674:

The elimination of the trinity system was an attempt to fix something that wasn’t really broken, in my opinion. Some players hated having to rely on healers, so they got their wish. The flip side of this is that players who actually enjoyed being in supporting roles are now forced to DPS or find another game. Whether or not you’re happy about this probably depends on which type of player you were.

The bolded is absolutely untrue. I’m one of those people, I like playing roles that are more about supporting your team than simply doing what you do yourself.

What people don’t seem to understand is that you can still support without tanking or being an overpowered healer.

Aegis, blinds, reflects, stability, protection, and condi cleanses are absolutely amazing. There’s a reason people call guards " PUG carriers". Mesmers are also huge in that. I was in an Arah path a while back, warrior with less than 1k ap, pretty darn new to the game. Came in without any knowledge of Lupi, running an Axe+Axe build. Should have died. Well… he didn’t. We had 2 guards and a mesmer. Every projectile was blocked. Every swipe was covered by an Aegis and condi cleanse. And he was tanky enough to survive the lift attack. The rest of us had a good laugh after at the fact that we were able to keep this guy up even though he knew nothing about what he was doing.

While I can agree that you were fulfilling a supporting role, my admittedly limited experience in this game suggests that your primary role was to DPS and that the support you provided was on the side. The group you described had three DPSers with group-wide damage mitigation. That is not the same as a group with two DPSers and one mitigator. Also, as you pointed out, if this new guy hadn’t been in your group all that mitigation would have been unnecessary.

I will admit that you don’t need to find another game if you don’t want to do DPS as your primary role. However, you’re going to have a heck of a time finding groups who will accept you as such.

Lifestealer.4910:

Necro: nothing of value

An overstatement at best, total rubbish at worst.

Some people don’t actually “play” games anymore, they min/max accounting and play like little robots attempting to maximize every narrowly defined “efficiency” that their skewed views identify. Think of a bunch of tax accountants playing Monopoly…yeah, how exciting!

And, yes. ANet fails (via dev direction contribution) when they cater to this silliness by caving into the teaming meta-lemming masses. It’s all quite understandably human and sad.

The Necromancer being useless in dungeon is has become a “truism” solely by virtue of being a GW2 cliche.

I’ve leveled 2 Necro’s to 80, and I have seen this “fact” being regurgitated and spread like cholera from one unclean body to another.

People create their own echo chambers of self-fulfilling expectations or the lack there of…

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1dv4sp/why_are_necromancers_considered_so_bad_for/

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/A-New-Appreciation-for-Necros

Bernie.8674:

Jerus.4350:

Bernie.8674:

The elimination of the trinity system was an attempt to fix something that wasn’t really broken, in my opinion. Some players hated having to rely on healers, so they got their wish. The flip side of this is that players who actually enjoyed being in supporting roles are now forced to DPS or find another game. Whether or not you’re happy about this probably depends on which type of player you were.

The bolded is absolutely untrue. I’m one of those people, I like playing roles that are more about supporting your team than simply doing what you do yourself.

What people don’t seem to understand is that you can still support without tanking or being an overpowered healer.

Aegis, blinds, reflects, stability, protection, and condi cleanses are absolutely amazing. There’s a reason people call guards " PUG carriers". Mesmers are also huge in that. I was in an Arah path a while back, warrior with less than 1k ap, pretty darn new to the game. Came in without any knowledge of Lupi, running an Axe+Axe build. Should have died. Well… he didn’t. We had 2 guards and a mesmer. Every projectile was blocked. Every swipe was covered by an Aegis and condi cleanse. And he was tanky enough to survive the lift attack. The rest of us had a good laugh after at the fact that we were able to keep this guy up even though he knew nothing about what he was doing.

While I can agree that you were fulfilling a supporting role, my admittedly limited experience in this game suggests that your primary role was to DPS and that the support you provided was on the side. The group you described had three DPSers with group-wide damage mitigation. That is not the same as a group with two DPSers and one mitigator. Also, as you pointed out, if this new guy hadn’t been in your group all that mitigation would have been unnecessary.

I will admit that you don’t need to find another game if you don’t want to do DPS as your primary role. However, you’re going to have a heck of a time finding groups who will accept you as such.

That’s the thing, while yes, I may be set to say 70% DPS and 30% support for Lupi. It’s that 30% support that I make sure to grab first. The DPS comes in because I know I’m safe with only the 30% I require, so why wouldn’t I stack DPS after that?

And, with that, no, really I have no problem finding groups. In fact I’d say these supportive roles are things most people like to have around. Now, there’s no reason to play them in a way where they go all out defense when all the group wants from them is just 1 or 2 skills, that’s where a lot of people get it wrong when we’re talking about a game like GW2.

I often bring my mesmer to COE, why? Because I can reflect the golem as well as keep it stripped of boons. After that I can strip condis and give stab at times, and even drop a mass invis for the pre-husk skip. I’ve never had a complaint, in fact just the other day had a guy say “you know I thought I’d miss the Ele, but this mesmer is great” after I joined them for path 3 (I had to assume they had an Ele as their 5th before me).

Play your class right, and don’t be wasteful in your resources and no one will complain. I’d even point out that the reason Necro is so frowned upon is not because of their lack of damage (it’s really not bad, lower side but not bad), it’s because they offer absolutely nothing that some other profession doesn’t do far better, and even then what they offer is not much (some vuln stacking?)

Kuldebar.1897:

Some people don’t actually “play” games anymore, they min/max accounting and play like little robots attempting to maximize every narrowly defined “efficiency” that their skewed views identify. Think of a bunch of tax accountants playing Monopoly…yeah, how exciting!

And, yes. ANet fails (via dev direction contribution) when they cater to this silliness by caving into the teaming meta-lemming masses. It’s all quite understandably human and sad.

Well-stated.

Kuldebar.1897:

The Necromancer being useless in dungeon is has become a “truism” solely by virtue of being a GW2 cliche.

I’ve leveled 2 Necro’s to 80, and I have seen this “fact” being regurgitated and spread like cholera from one unclean body to another.

Like I told my daughter, who created a necro, the condition damage cap is low so in group play most of the necro’s condition-heavy damage is effectively wasted because everyone else in the group will already be applying conditions. For solo play, however, they do well. That having been said, I have yet to experience content in this game that was gated by DPS.

Necros are definitely not useless in dungeons, but they are not as useful as other classes. Sadly, as you pointed out, many players view their gaming as serious business that demands a baseline level of performance.