Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

mesme.5028:

Vayne.8563:

Mungrul.9358:

Subdue.5479:

YOU CAN CHOOSE NOT TO MAKE ASCENDED ITEMS. NOT MAKING THE ASCENDED ITEMS DOES NOT LOCK YOU OUT OF ANY CONTENT.

I’m going to use your dirty little trick against you and lordkrall: Not having Ascended gear DOES lock you out of some game content: High-end Fractals.
No ifs, no buts.
No Ascended gear?
Your Fractal progression is locked to a certain level.

And was designed SPECIFICALLY for that in mind. The fractals were designed to give people who want to grind that play style. That’s their purpose.

If you don’t want to do it, you can play EVERY fractal without ever getting ascended gear. You can see every fractal. You can experience every boss.

You can’t play the higher levels, but you know…that’s a great compromise. The kind of compromise most games don’t provide.

I don’t find fracts a grind, i do find ar a grind thou, i would much prefer they removed ar and let us play to lvl 80 fracts, some peeps enjoy hard content but don’t enjoy hard grind.

Without the grind, people would be done with it in a week and they’ve have nothing to do. That’s really the whole point of the exercise. If it was going to be something you can just do, it would not have been successful…not in the way that Anet needed it to be anyway.

I would love them to let us play and progress without ar, each level a % harder without a level cap, isnt pushing yourself and conquering things you struggle with fun? lots would agree I’m sure.

Grinding world bosses for ore and mats sure isn’t fun for me.

I haven’t read the whole topic, but I stay by my opinion about this. It’s optional. You don’t have to do it. And grind is a grind if you make it a grind. I have made 3 pieces of ascended armor because it keeps me busy and I need a new armor set if a cool gem store armor comes out anyways. I haven’t even maxed out wep.smith because I don’t care, I used exo wep till I got my ascended drop from Teq week ago.So yeah, otherwise I wouldn’t care. I’m not in full ascended, am I at disadvantage? No nor do I care. Am I beaten in WvW?, sometimes, because I’m a pve guy and don’t want to change my gear. Never felt I was at disadvantage nor it was a grind. Different mindset makes a different game.

Ronah.2869:

What does BiS stand for?

Best in slot gear. Right now, ascended gear is best in slot. It’s the highest stats you can get in each slot (except like aqua breather I think).

Some people feel they must have the highest numbers, even though they don’t need those numbers for anything they’re doing.

@Ronah: http://www.wowwiki.com/Best_in_slot

Zalman.8719:

I haven’t read the whole topic, but I stay by my opinion about this. It’s optional. You don’t have to do it. And grind is a grind if you make it a grind. I have made 3 pieces of ascended armor because it keeps me busy and I need a new armor set if a cool gem store armor comes out anyways. I haven’t even maxed out wep.smith because I don’t care, I used exo wep till I got my ascended drop from Teq week ago.So yeah, otherwise I wouldn’t care. I’m not in full ascended, am I at disadvantage? No nor do I care. Am I beaten in WvW?, sometimes, because I’m a pve guy and don’t want to change my gear. Never felt I was at disadvantage nor it was a grind. Different mindset makes a different game.

@subdue
although my feelings are obviously different than Zalman’s, this is precisely what i meant in the beginning. what do you think about BiS and VP?

@zalman, thank you for your polite and in-topic answer.

Vayne.8563:

Ronah.2869:

What does BiS stand for?

Best in slot gear. Right now, ascended gear is best in slot. It’s the highest stats you can get in each slot (except like aqua breather I think).

Some people feel they must have the highest numbers, even though they don’t need those numbers for anything they’re doing.

thank you. I saw that bis things in many thread but none explained it.

What i find funny about the ascended armor is, peeps who need the armor do high level fracts, they do higher level for the challenge, don’t want it made easier with better stats, but have to get ascended or ar limits the level they can go.

The only ones who look to care about the stat increase are ones who link gear in guild chat or stand around la and never venture into higher lever fracts anyway.

Vayne.8563:

Without the grind, people would be done with it in a week and they’ve have nothing to do. That’s really the whole point of the exercise. If it was going to be something you can just do, it would not have been successful…not in the way that Anet needed it to be anyway.

It’s not saying much that this is the best they could come up with for that.
I understand the reason, but not the implementation. And the forgotten fact seems to be that some people did start getting it in less than a week.
It’s like they just assumed that because MMO’s and RPGS have had mindless grind in them for so many years now that people must love it.
To be honest, the addition of Ascended grind is the reason I am patiently waiting for new MMO’s to come out. The grass isn’t always greener, I know, but GW2 has proven that in itself by catering to this model of endgame. I came here to get away from the standard MMO stagnation of tier grind, but ended up in the same situation. If I wanted the Ascended experience, I could pick up any MMO from the last 15 years and get the same grind.

MrRuin.9740:

Vayne.8563:

Without the grind, people would be done with it in a week and they’ve have nothing to do. That’s really the whole point of the exercise. If it was going to be something you can just do, it would not have been successful…not in the way that Anet needed it to be anyway.

It’s not saying much that this is the best they could come up with for that.
I understand the reason, but not the implementation. And the forgotten fact seems to be that some people did start getting it in less than a week.
It’s like they just assumed that because MMO’s and RPGS have had mindless grind in them for so many years now that people must love it.
To be honest, the addition of Ascended grind is the reason I am patiently waiting for new MMO’s to come out. The grass isn’t always greener, I know, but GW2 has proven that in itself by catering to this model of endgame. I came here to get away from the standard MMO stagnation of tier grind, but ended up in the same situation. If I wanted the Ascended experience, I could pick up any MMO from the last 15 years and get the same grind.

Sure. But how many MMOs can you say that you can experience 99.9 % of the content without BIS gear is the question.

Most MMOs lock you out of content if you don’t gear up. Guild Wars 2 not so much.

All themepark MMOs are going to run into the same problem. There won’t be enough content to play, and therefore, people will have to repeat stuff until new stuff comes out. I don’t really see any way around that.

Vayne.8563:

Sure. But how many MMOs can you say that you can experience 99.9 % of the content without BIS gear is the question.

Most MMOs lock you out of content if you don’t gear up. Guild Wars 2 not so much.

All themepark MMOs are going to run into the same problem. There won’t be enough content to play, and therefore, people will have to repeat stuff until new stuff comes out. I don’t really see any way around that.

The thing is, if there’s going to be a mindless BiS grind, I would rather there be some point to it besides Anet just adding the feeling of being behind.
At least then they are adding new content that at least needs this new gear that costs so much and requires so much grind.
I find it worse that Anet just added a tier for the sake of adding the feeling of being behind if you don’t.
And the thing is, there are ways around it. People have suggested many things, in this topic and others. In forums of other MMO’s. The playerbase is a fountain of ideas. There are many unexplored ways to go for endgame progression that doesn’t involve a tier based BiS system. Simply feels to me Anet took the easy way out and added a carrot-system just for the sake of it.
One of these days, someone will take these ideas and make a truly innovative MMO and revitalize the genre (at least for a while). Until then, GW2 stands as the best there is currently since the some of the other things they have in game are enough to outweigh the carrot-grind. I had the high-hopes of thinking GW2 was going to attempt to do just that, but was rather disappointed to see them take the same path, under a different guise.
We have grindy tier based BiS gears, only you don’t really need them and they’re just there to make you feel inadequate and behind the people who do have it.

Vayne.8563:

All themepark MMOs are going to run into the same problem. There won’t be enough content to play, and therefore, people will have to repeat stuff until new stuff comes out. I don’t really see any way around that.

Well yes, but that’s why we need sandbox MMOs, or themepark-sandbox hybrids (even better). Games that allow the players to create the content or allow for a lot of emergent gameplay.

Shakkara.2641:

Vayne.8563:

All themepark MMOs are going to run into the same problem. There won’t be enough content to play, and therefore, people will have to repeat stuff until new stuff comes out. I don’t really see any way around that.

Well yes, but that’s why we need sandbox MMOs, or themepark-sandbox hybrids (even better). Games that allow the players to create the content or allow for a lot of emergent gameplay.

They’re different kind of games. Most of the best sandbox MMOs require a commitment most people can’t make. Take Eve for example. How many casual Eve players have you met?

Because of this, sand box games will usually have lower populations than themepark games. They’re just more demanding.

And they’ll probably all have open world PvP which a whole lot of people don’t like.

I just don’t get why a-net doesn’t look at the player base and the way peeps find fun.

High level fract runners need ar so give us fract armor obtainable from fract relics, make fracts harder and not easier, current lvl 49 is poss like the old 29, peeps do it for the challenge not the gear.

Zerk speed dungeon runners, let them equip ruby orbs to infusion slots, bursting throu content is what they like, why nerf zerks?

Dynamic event train runners, give more dynamic events, and time them better.

Dungeon runners give them more dungeons and perhaps a nm/hm option like gw1.

What not to give peeps is a time gated ascended grind, with beyond silly mat requirements, perhaps as its time gated thou and by not making the ascended mats account bound they can be purchased on the tp and thus gems/transmutation crystal sales will do well, the stat increase im sure wasn’t something most high fract runners were crying out for, more they knew everyone would get it that way.

Shakkara.2641:

Vayne.8563:

All themepark MMOs are going to run into the same problem. There won’t be enough content to play, and therefore, people will have to repeat stuff until new stuff comes out. I don’t really see any way around that.

Well yes, but that’s why we need sandbox MMOs, or themepark-sandbox hybrids (even better). Games that allow the players to create the content or allow for a lot of emergent gameplay.

it’s a good “study” of the mmo situation.
maybe sandbox games appeal to a very little population, or need open world pvp, and all of this is difficult to apply to famous trademarks,
but just taking some elements from them and put in mmos to improve them is not that bad.
it’s a lot of work, too.

sadly, anet has already taken a way, that usual (or almost usual, because, as you say, there is only fractals locked because of AR tiers, for now – and again that sense of “behind the others” still remains) gear vertical progression.

Vayne.8563:

They’re different kind of games. Most of the best sandbox MMOs require a commitment most people can’t make. Take Eve for example. How many casual Eve players have you met?

Because of this, sand box games will usually have lower populations than themepark games. They’re just more demanding.

And they’ll probably all have open world PvP which a whole lot of people don’t like.

I disagree. Sandbox games can be casual and can lack PVP. Just look at Ultima Online. Everquest Next. Wildstar.

They don’t have to be a hardcore PVP fest like EVE.

And I used to play EVE casually and have seen many casual player corporations. Just don’t expect to play 0.0 casually… Although you could just join a 0.0 corp as low-level grunt and casual through that too.

But anyway, I think sandbox-themepark hybrids are the way to go.

Wasn’t there a city of heroes add-on that allowed players to build their own dungeons and other players had to attack them, or something?

Vayne.8563:

MrRuin.9740:

Vayne.8563:

Without the grind, people would be done with it in a week and they’ve have nothing to do. That’s really the whole point of the exercise. If it was going to be something you can just do, it would not have been successful…not in the way that Anet needed it to be anyway.

It’s not saying much that this is the best they could come up with for that.
I understand the reason, but not the implementation. And the forgotten fact seems to be that some people did start getting it in less than a week.
It’s like they just assumed that because MMO’s and RPGS have had mindless grind in them for so many years now that people must love it.
To be honest, the addition of Ascended grind is the reason I am patiently waiting for new MMO’s to come out. The grass isn’t always greener, I know, but GW2 has proven that in itself by catering to this model of endgame. I came here to get away from the standard MMO stagnation of tier grind, but ended up in the same situation. If I wanted the Ascended experience, I could pick up any MMO from the last 15 years and get the same grind.

Sure. But how many MMOs can you say that you can experience 99.9 % of the content without BIS gear is the question.

Most MMOs lock you out of content if you don’t gear up. Guild Wars 2 not so much.

All themepark MMOs are going to run into the same problem. There won’t be enough content to play, and therefore, people will have to repeat stuff until new stuff comes out. I don’t really see any way around that.

This betrays the most common misconception about vertical progression that you see on the forums, that it is optional. You can have BiS but don’t really need it to play the content. I’m puzzled as to why people don’t understand the dynamics of relating power to time in a positive manner. We don’t really know what the slope of the power curve is in GW2, but we’ve seen about a 10% increase in power in it’s first year in the game. Can you play the game successfully given the current increase? Sure. But that ignores the effects of the increases of year two and beyond.

I’ve found it helpful to use an analogy here. Instead of games and power let’s consider real life and body weight. Let’s say you live in a universe where your body weight increases 10% per year. A moments thought will reveal to you that if you want to remain slim, you will need to get on the treadmill and the sooner the better. And, this is why the treadmill of VP is “technically” non-optional. The debate here should really be about whether you like the treadmill of VP or not, not about it’s optionality. In fact, that’s the major downside to VP—it’s coercive requirement to ride a treadmill that goes nowhere.

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

MrRuin.9740:

Vayne.8563:

Without the grind, people would be done with it in a week and they’ve have nothing to do. That’s really the whole point of the exercise. If it was going to be something you can just do, it would not have been successful…not in the way that Anet needed it to be anyway.

It’s not saying much that this is the best they could come up with for that.
I understand the reason, but not the implementation. And the forgotten fact seems to be that some people did start getting it in less than a week.
It’s like they just assumed that because MMO’s and RPGS have had mindless grind in them for so many years now that people must love it.
To be honest, the addition of Ascended grind is the reason I am patiently waiting for new MMO’s to come out. The grass isn’t always greener, I know, but GW2 has proven that in itself by catering to this model of endgame. I came here to get away from the standard MMO stagnation of tier grind, but ended up in the same situation. If I wanted the Ascended experience, I could pick up any MMO from the last 15 years and get the same grind.

Sure. But how many MMOs can you say that you can experience 99.9 % of the content without BIS gear is the question.

Most MMOs lock you out of content if you don’t gear up. Guild Wars 2 not so much.

All themepark MMOs are going to run into the same problem. There won’t be enough content to play, and therefore, people will have to repeat stuff until new stuff comes out. I don’t really see any way around that.

This betrays the most common misconception about vertical progression that you see on the forums, that it is optional. You can have BiS but don’t really need it to play the content. I’m puzzled as to why people don’t understand the dynamics of relating power to time in a positive manner. We don’t really know what the slope of the power curve is in GW2, but we’ve seen about a 10% increase in power in it’s first year in the game. Can you play the game successfully given the current increase? Sure. But that ignores the effects of the increases of year two and beyond.

I’ve found it helpful to use an analogy here. Instead of games and power let’s consider real life and body weight. Let’s say you live in a universe where your body weight increases 10% per year. A moments thought will reveal to you that if you want to remain slim, you will need to get on the treadmill and the sooner the better. And, this is why the treadmill of VP is “technically” non-optional. The debate here should really be about whether you like the treadmill of VP or not, not about it’s optionality. In fact, that’s the major downside to VP—it’s coercive requirement to ride a treadmill that goes nowhere.

You’re making the assumption that more tiers of gear will be added. We simply don’t know that. It may happen.

I might even leave the game if it does.

I still believe this was a stop gap measure while Anet worked on other things to keep people playing.

This is a theme park mmo whose primary source of income is item mall. There will always be design choices that are unfavorable to the average player.

Master of Timespace.2548:

This is a theme park mmo whose primary source of income is item mall. There will always be design choices that are unfavorable to the average player.

well….no. “always” is not correct. “atm, and the most part of mmo” is good.
but, if you want to say that it’s a statistical curve and not all the ppl of a population are the same and will have the same things, spend same money, spend same time ingame, still these “design choices unfavorable to average players” could be purely cosmetic.

and these cosmetics or any other things can still be a source of income.

ex: i (and many i used to play with) would buy some gems for a cool mini. or a hairstyle. or a race. or a class. or anything else. (i’ve already bought gems in the past, no problems about it. i felt free in my choice. it was a form of “thank you, anet”)
sure, many people wouldn’t spend money except for “pay to win” (mats for crafting, boosts, better gear directly or indirectly acquired. only things that have a visible impact in game, or make the game easier or quicker in acquiring something )

anet had to do a choice. i think they indeed chose the second population…but are still trying to keep a foot in both camps. (or call it a compromise)
but IMHO it won’t last long.

Kevan.8912:

anet had to do a choice. i think they indeed chose the second population…but are still trying to keep a foot in both camps. (or call it a compromise)
but IMHO it won’t last long.

It’s not going to last long, players who are into the whole vertical progression thing will get their gear and will be screamming and QQ’ing again because there is “nothing to do”.

Anet underestimated the player base at launch, they needed 1000’s of more skins and a better thought out horizontal progression system in order to keep to their original promises and ideals to cater to the original player base they were shooting for. They received too many players who only know the WoW playstyle and were expecting a free to play WoW, thus they had to make the comprise to cater to this player base so they added a bandaid fix with Ascended to buy themselves time. I believe alot of the rage could of been avoided if Ascended was available to earn through multiple styles of play instead of the linear timegated grindfest that has been presented to us.

I personally have only seen nothing but negative effects to this decision, once being a part of 2 major guilds with at point had 100’s of active players is now a great wall of greyed out names, and my main guild is down to only 10 active players on a good night. I am still somewhat enjoying the game, ignoring the Ascended thing has helped greatly but a big part of me is still very annoyed with the decision.

If you feel obligated to grind for ascended armor and cannot play the game happily until you have every character slot filled with that pinkish-magenta text, I pitty you. People keep banging this “I feel obligated to get it” drum over and over. This leads me to believe it has more to do with your “psychological conditioning” than with Guild Wars itself. You’ve probably been trained by every game since 1985 to not stop until you have all the best items possible. The original idea of fun has been erased from your mind and replaced with a hunger that cannot be sated.

I shall posit an analogy for your anger. It is akin to the reaction of a young child learning to read. He becomes frustrated and says “books are dumb!” But books are not really dumb. The child simply doesn’t have the understanding, and the most basic primitive human reaction to a problem is to attack it or run away from it.

Ascended gear isn’t dumb, you just don’t yet understand that it’s an optional long-term goal meant for certain players who have the time and resources to pursue it. You are angry because you have been trained to expect something. Well things change. Different games are different. Is it not humanity’s ability to adapt one of its greatest strengths?

Kevan.8912:

Shakkara.2641:

Vayne.8563:

All themepark MMOs are going to run into the same problem. There won’t be enough content to play, and therefore, people will have to repeat stuff until new stuff comes out. I don’t really see any way around that.

Well yes, but that’s why we need sandbox MMOs, or themepark-sandbox hybrids (even better). Games that allow the players to create the content or allow for a lot of emergent gameplay.

it’s a good “study” of the mmo situation.
maybe sandbox games appeal to a very little population, or need open world pvp, and all of this is difficult to apply to famous trademarks,

EvE Online has open world PvP after a fashion, from what I hear. It also is a game I won’t touch with a ten foot pole because it is incredibly demanding of constant attention if you don’t want to wind up dead or trapped.

There’s also DayZ and Rust shaping up to be almost like each other in the “sandbox open world PvP” matter. Quite a lot of interesting stories out of those games, but “fair” is not what those games are. I’d go so far as to say “fun” is all a matter of whether you’re victim or victimizer in them.

Shakkara.2641:

Vayne.8563:

They’re different kind of games. Most of the best sandbox MMOs require a commitment most people can’t make. Take Eve for example. How many casual Eve players have you met?

Because of this, sand box games will usually have lower populations than themepark games. They’re just more demanding.

And they’ll probably all have open world PvP which a whole lot of people don’t like.

I disagree. Sandbox games can be casual and can lack PVP. Just look at Ultima Online. Everquest Next. Wildstar.

Don’t throw up Ultima Online as “casual” and “lacks PvP”, when they launched with the concept of players being able to do whatever they could get away with outside guard protection. Or the “PvP” of, oh, tamers who would tame monsters and release them on top of people to get around “no PvP”.

Its casual bits were somewhat stifled over requiring some rather immense grind to do things, and the ever-present risk of being killed getting ore to make metal to work your Blacksmithing.

Xenon.4537:

If you feel obligated to grind for ascended armor and cannot play the game happily until you have every character slot filled with that pinkish-magenta text, I pitty you. People keep banging this “I feel obligated to get it” drum over and over. This leads me to believe it has more to do with your “psychological conditioning” than with Guild Wars itself. You’ve probably been trained by every game since 1985 to not stop until you have all the best items possible. The original idea of fun has been erased from your mind and replaced with a hunger that cannot be sated.

I shall posit an analogy for your anger. It is akin to the reaction of a young child learning to read. He becomes frustrated and says “books are dumb!” But books are not really dumb. The child simply doesn’t have the understanding, and the most basic primitive human reaction to a problem is to attack it or run away from it.

Ascended gear isn’t dumb, you just don’t yet understand that it’s an optional long-term goal meant for certain players who have the time and resources to pursue it. You are angry because you have been trained to expect something. Well things change. Different games are different. Is it not humanity’s ability to adapt one of its greatest strengths?

i’m sorry as english is not my language, and i won’t be so elegant.
this is the usual demonstration that “ascended are not that bad”, and you also show a paternalistic compassion to underline your superiority.
you can explain the things in a more polished way, but things remain as they are.

there is not any conditioning here. it’s the exact opposite.

i play for the game itself. for what a game can offer. plot, graphics, gameplay.
so, i’m mainly a single-player-games player (sorry for the riddle).
skyrim. bioshock. oblivion. mass effect. far cry. crysis. half life. just to give you an idea.

i tried some mmo’s for a “cultural” (to try something that everybody is talking about) and “social” reason (to join friends who already liked the genre)
many mmo’s, same end: I quitted as finished exploring-leveling, because i hate any form of increasing numbers and new gear.
diablo 3. wow. path of exile. lotro
everything i tried, ended in…grinding/farming.
every guild i tried was populated by psychologically disturbed people who wasted their lives following best dps, best tier, best achievement…you know. dozen hrs every week.
the common internet gaming addiction.

until a friend of mine linked that kitten ed manifesto.
(you’ll say again: you misunderstood it. anet did it right…etc etc etc.
ok. what do you want. it’s not important here. don’t bother me about it again )
i liked the idea that there was no grinding at all (at least, not for BiS, that i acquired within hours from hitting 80), the fact everything you did gave you exp, so leveling was not a grind. and of course, no real money auction house or payto win, no botters.
“if you don’t like mmo…” we’ll know these words.
just pay the game once, and keep playing.
so i started gw2..leveled till 80 a pair of characters, did part of the storyline, did some dungeons, some world events.
i mainly explored maps, and did events as they found them in the world, coop-ing with everybody i met. just for my love for exploration.
followed living story when i had time.
everything was fine for me.

until the introduction of ascended.
and here we are.
that sense of inferiority. of betrayal if you want.
of course not that childish conditioning you blabla about.

and…if you want to find such conditioning, i think you can see it in the people (wow kids and so on) who asked for it in a game that was supposed to have mainly a horizontal growth.
and when anet satisfied their requests just to have their money..it’s my duty to adapt to it?
this is madness.
nobody said ascended is dumb.
it very smart indeed. it’s a trick to have a pause from horizontal progression while still keeping “carrot boys” online. i just call it with its true name.

and you miss one important thing.
here in italy, we say that “customer is always right”.
it’s not my obligation to bow to what gw2 has become.
but it’s my right to say what i dislike of a product i bought, give a feedback, and quit that game if it ‘s not what i expected from it, or if it revealed different/changed after i bought it. that’s what we’re doing here and now.

again, as i previously said.
no professors here. i’m adult, i know what i want and what i like.
so, @Xenon: do you like VP and ascended?
if you don’t, why?

Kevan.8912:

i many mmo’s, same end: I quitted as finished exploring-leveling, because i hate any form of increasing numbers and new gear.
diablo 3. wow. path of exile. lotro
everything i tried, ended in…grinding/farming.
every guild i tried psychologically disturbed people who wasted their lives following best dps, best tier, best achievement…you know. 30-40hrs every week.
the common internet gaming addiction.

until a friend of mine linked that kitten ed manifesto.
(you’ll say again: you misunderstood it. it is right…etc etc etc. ok. what do you want.
it’s not important here. )
i liked the idea that there was no grinding at all (at least, not for BiS, that i acquired within hours from hitting 80), the fact everything you did gave you exp, so leveling was not a grind. and of course, no real money auction house or payto win, no botters.
“if you don’t like mmo…” we’ll know these words.
just pay the game at start, and keep playing.
so i started gw2..leveled till 80 a pair of characters, did part of the storyline, did some dungeons, some world events.
i mainly explored maps, and did events as they found them in the world, coop-ing with everybody i met. just for my love for exploration.
followed living story when i had time.
everything was fine for me.

until the introduction of ascended.
and here we are.

Well said. I’m in the same boat. If I liked WoW, I’d play that game. I played this game because it was advertised as doing thing different. No grind for stupid numbers going up. Cosmetic progression only.

it’s not my obligation to bow to what gw2 has become.

Exactly. The devs must get back on track and adhere to the manifesto and the things Colin promised us before release.

Xenon.4537:

Ascended gear isn’t dumb, you just don’t yet understand that it’s an optional long-term goal meant for certain players who have the time and resources to pursue it. You are angry because you have been trained to expect something. Well things change. Different games are different. Is it not humanity’s ability to adapt one of its greatest strengths?

The same arguments could have been (and in some cases were) used to respond to the people who complained about nothing to do. Just as there is nothing sacred about a dislike for Ascended, there is nothing sacred about liking it, either. There is nothing inherently superior about either position.

Shakkara.2641:

Exactly. The devs must get back on track and adhere to the manifesto and the things Colin promised us before release.

i don’t want to discuss again about manifesto. it’s a nightmare.
((@shakkara, i also interpreted manifesto as you did it.
and it’s not the way to solve anything
demonstrating that they didn’t keep their word because manifesto said xxxxxx doesn’t delete ascended!))

still, what i mean in this post is to explain my (our!) feeling about what gw2 has become. and collect many gamers’ opinion so that anet is aware of it.
i don’t really think that they’ll listen to us.
but it’s our right as customers to judge their work.

many of us hate what gw2 is at the moment.
hate to max out crafting, hate the long hours required to have ascended.
hate the feeling of being behind and that “must work to reach the other people”
and it’s not important if that difference is evident or not. it exists, and it s sufficient.

so, once again, please. no moralizers. no preachers.
just respect our dislike.

Xenon.4537:

Ascended gear isn’t dumb, you just don’t yet understand that it’s an optional long-term goal meant for certain players who have the time and resources to pursue it. You are angry because you have been trained to expect something. Well things change. Different games are different. Is it not humanity’s ability to adapt one of its greatest strengths?

Point was kind of missed here.
Angry is a strong term for probably anybody opposed to Ascended. Disappointed I find to be more fitting. You are right, we have been trained to expect one thing. The stagnant MMO genre has trained us to expect to have to grind BiS gear.
This game claimed to be more friendly, throwing aside the grind and stagnation of the MMO genre pushing away from the tired gear-tier stat climb in favor of something more innovative.
Whats disappointing is to see them fall into the same stagnant and tired trend of just throwing a tier-grind into the endgame for lack of doing anything else.
I was ready to adapt to new kind of MMO only to find this one turn into the same tired and boring grind for “new content” as every other MMO thats out there.
Yeah its optional…its also the only new thing they’ve added to work for.
Where’s the horizontal progression? Wheres the cosmetic progression? Wheres the innovative turn from traditional MMO’s? Tossed away in favor of tedious grind that any other MMO has.
Legendary did fill this spot. And they should have continued with it. A flashy weapon to work toward that did not give stat gain.
They could have added legendary armor, with stats that can changed out of combat, with infusion slots, with flashy skins, variable skins, and so on……all with the same stats as exotic. You would have flashy eye candy, with conveniences like stat changing and something to show off………………all without this stupid stat crawl.
Different games are different. Too bad this one chose to conform and be the same as all the others.

a majestic +1
it’s a good traditional mmo, with some differences…but not huge differences.
of course, not that mmo killer.

Vayne.8563:

HiddenNick.7206:

Vayne.8563:

Thank you for posting this. I agree with this. I would prefer there was no vertical progression in the game. I don’t think that it makes this a better game.

Dude… As far as I know when you play the game you level up a character. And as soon as it’s a level 80 and the vertical progression is over you make another one. So there is not so much difference between you and people that want to progress their characters instead of creating a new one.

There are other ways to progress your characters without vertical progression. There are ways to progress via horizontal progression.

I didn’t say I’m against progression. I’m against gear grind in general.

People played Guild Wars 1 for years, without any stat progression on armor or weapons. What they got instead was new and better skills. And you could level up some skills, so they did more. That to me was far more fun than getting better gear.

I never wanted to be a coat rack for greatness. And if I wanted gear grind, I’d have become a watchmaker.

I’ve played gw1. I was pretty experienced pvp gamer in that game. But I’ve always considered PvE aspect of gw1 to be lacking. After completing the main story it was always about farming gold… It was grindy and repetitive. There was hundred of ways to play it but there was always that one valid way you could find on the wiki. Pretty horrible experience to me. And it’s pretty much what gw2 is becoming. So you don’t need to tell me how gw1 was. And how h.p. worked in that game. I know it from my own experience.
I’m pretty sure that gw1 would die soon if it wasn’t about its PvP component.
Just to clarify. I’m not saying that gear grinding is the way to go. But I know that if you consider gw1 as a perfect example of progression implementation then you are wrong.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Xenon.4537:

Ascended gear isn’t dumb, you just don’t yet understand that it’s an optional long-term goal meant for certain players who have the time and resources to pursue it. You are angry because you have been trained to expect something. Well things change. Different games are different. Is it not humanity’s ability to adapt one of its greatest strengths?

The same arguments could have been (and in some cases were) used to respond to the people who complained about nothing to do. Just as there is nothing sacred about a dislike for Ascended, there is nothing sacred about liking it, either. There is nothing inherently superior about either position.

Actually, I’d argue that a liking for ascended is an inherently superior position, because it does not take choices away from others. From those who like ascended item’s point of view, if you don’t want to work/grind/etc for them, you don’t have to, that’s your call. But those of you arguing against ascended aren’t just unwilling to work/grind/etc for them, you want to remove the option for others. That makes that side inherently selfish and inferior.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Xenon.4537:

Ascended gear isn’t dumb, you just don’t yet understand that it’s an optional long-term goal meant for certain players who have the time and resources to pursue it. You are angry because you have been trained to expect something. Well things change. Different games are different. Is it not humanity’s ability to adapt one of its greatest strengths?

The same arguments could have been (and in some cases were) used to respond to the people who complained about nothing to do. Just as there is nothing sacred about a dislike for Ascended, there is nothing sacred about liking it, either. There is nothing inherently superior about either position.

This is 100% correct. There is nothing objectively good or bad about ascended gear, but I personally think it adds nothing at all to the game…well nothing good anyway.

Subdue.5479:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Xenon.4537:

Ascended gear isn’t dumb, you just don’t yet understand that it’s an optional long-term goal meant for certain players who have the time and resources to pursue it. You are angry because you have been trained to expect something. Well things change. Different games are different. Is it not humanity’s ability to adapt one of its greatest strengths?

The same arguments could have been (and in some cases were) used to respond to the people who complained about nothing to do. Just as there is nothing sacred about a dislike for Ascended, there is nothing sacred about liking it, either. There is nothing inherently superior about either position.

Actually, I’d argue that a liking for ascended is an inherently superior position, because it does not take choices away from others. From those who like ascended item’s point of view, if you don’t want to work/grind/etc for them, you don’t have to, that’s your call. But those of you arguing against ascended aren’t just unwilling to work/grind/etc for them, you want to remove the option for others. That makes that side inherently selfish and inferior.

It’s all a matter of perspective. There was one MMO that suggested it was not about grinding for BiS. Some people bought that game in spite of that advertising and QQ’d enough about nothing to do that BiS grind was added. This was also in spite of the fact that there are plenty of MMO’s that offer progression. Essentially, these people were saying. “Every game has to be the way we want it, you can’t have one like you want it.” That’s the poster child for selfish.

However, it’s not that simple from either side. People who asked for grind did not set out to take anything away from anyone, and people who hate Ascended are not trying to take anything away from anyone. Both sides are arguing for a game that is played the way they want it to play. Next time you want to throw stones at people over this issue, I suggest you look at which side actually got their way and which side didn’t.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Next time you want to throw stones at people over this issue, I suggest you look at which side actually got their way and which side didn’t.

I still don’t have Ascalon back in the hands of mankind. For that reason alone, asura killing will continue until it happens. If I run out of asura, I’ll start on the quaggans and skritt.

Now on a more serious note…

I just put trust Arenanet realizes how badly this whole thing about Ascended (right now the only vertical progression anyone actually cares about) was received and cool it off. Given the tone of the CDI thread? I’d say they’re aware and really trying to figure out some way of avoiding a solely vertical progression in the future.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Next time you want to throw stones at people over this issue, I suggest you look at which side actually got their way and which side didn’t.

I still don’t have Ascalon back in the hands of mankind. For that reason alone, asura killing will continue until it happens. If I run out of asura, I’ll start on the quaggans and skritt.

Now on a more serious note…

I just put trust Arenanet realizes how badly this whole thing about Ascended (right now the only vertical progression anyone actually cares about) was received and cool it off. Given the tone of the CDI thread? I’d say they’re aware and really trying to figure out some way of avoiding a solely vertical progression in the future.

i’d like to think that anet is trying to fix this ascended thing…making us acquire in an easier way or through different activities. (and of course, making ascended last BiS tier.)
but i m not so sure.

@indigo: +1

Subdue.5479:

Actually, I’d argue that a liking for ascended is an inherently superior position, because it does not take choices away from others. From those who like ascended item’s point of view, if you don’t want to work/grind/etc for them, you don’t have to, that’s your call. But those of you arguing against ascended aren’t just unwilling to work/grind/etc for them, you want to remove the option for others. That makes that side inherently selfish and inferior.

I’d say the people who complained and got a gear grind added to a game that didn’t need it and that many of us didn’t want are inherently selfish. I’m not unwilling to work for them, I feel compelled to work towards them, constantly. I recognize that compulsion in myself, I just don’t enjoy it. That’s why I look for games that don’t cause that feeling, like this one was before they added ascended.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Subdue.5479:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Xenon.4537:

Ascended gear isn’t dumb, you just don’t yet understand that it’s an optional long-term goal meant for certain players who have the time and resources to pursue it. You are angry because you have been trained to expect something. Well things change. Different games are different. Is it not humanity’s ability to adapt one of its greatest strengths?

The same arguments could have been (and in some cases were) used to respond to the people who complained about nothing to do. Just as there is nothing sacred about a dislike for Ascended, there is nothing sacred about liking it, either. There is nothing inherently superior about either position.

Actually, I’d argue that a liking for ascended is an inherently superior position, because it does not take choices away from others. From those who like ascended item’s point of view, if you don’t want to work/grind/etc for them, you don’t have to, that’s your call. But those of you arguing against ascended aren’t just unwilling to work/grind/etc for them, you want to remove the option for others. That makes that side inherently selfish and inferior.

It’s all a matter of perspective. There was one MMO that suggested it was not about grinding for BiS. Some people bought that game in spite of that advertising and QQ’d enough about nothing to do that BiS grind was added. This was also in spite of the fact that there are plenty of MMO’s that offer progression. Essentially, these people were saying. “Every game has to be the way we want it, you can’t have one like you want it.” That’s the poster child for selfish.

However, it’s not that simple from either side. People who asked for grind did not set out to take anything away from anyone, and people who hate Ascended are not trying to take anything away from anyone. Both sides are arguing for a game that is played the way they want it to play. Next time you want to throw stones at people over this issue, I suggest you look at which side actually got their way and which side didn’t.

Regardless of what you feel people set out to do, the fact remains that the way ascended gear was implemented, those who don’t like to grind are in no way forced to, and are in no way locked out of content, outside of their own psychosis that is. The opposite is true if ascended gear were not implemented at all, the people who enjoy that sort of thing would have nothing.

Vayne.8563:

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

MrRuin.9740:

Vayne.8563:

Without the grind, people would be done with it in a week and they’ve have nothing to do. That’s really the whole point of the exercise. If it was going to be something you can just do, it would not have been successful…not in the way that Anet needed it to be anyway.

It’s not saying much that this is the best they could come up with for that.
I understand the reason, but not the implementation. And the forgotten fact seems to be that some people did start getting it in less than a week.
It’s like they just assumed that because MMO’s and RPGS have had mindless grind in them for so many years now that people must love it.
To be honest, the addition of Ascended grind is the reason I am patiently waiting for new MMO’s to come out. The grass isn’t always greener, I know, but GW2 has proven that in itself by catering to this model of endgame. I came here to get away from the standard MMO stagnation of tier grind, but ended up in the same situation. If I wanted the Ascended experience, I could pick up any MMO from the last 15 years and get the same grind.

Sure. But how many MMOs can you say that you can experience 99.9 % of the content without BIS gear is the question.

Most MMOs lock you out of content if you don’t gear up. Guild Wars 2 not so much.

All themepark MMOs are going to run into the same problem. There won’t be enough content to play, and therefore, people will have to repeat stuff until new stuff comes out. I don’t really see any way around that.

This betrays the most common misconception about vertical progression that you see on the forums, that it is optional. You can have BiS but don’t really need it to play the content. I’m puzzled as to why people don’t understand the dynamics of relating power to time in a positive manner. We don’t really know what the slope of the power curve is in GW2, but we’ve seen about a 10% increase in power in it’s first year in the game. Can you play the game successfully given the current increase? Sure. But that ignores the effects of the increases of year two and beyond.

I’ve found it helpful to use an analogy here. Instead of games and power let’s consider real life and body weight. Let’s say you live in a universe where your body weight increases 10% per year. A moments thought will reveal to you that if you want to remain slim, you will need to get on the treadmill and the sooner the better. And, this is why the treadmill of VP is “technically” non-optional. The debate here should really be about whether you like the treadmill of VP or not, not about it’s optionality. In fact, that’s the major downside to VP—it’s coercive requirement to ride a treadmill that goes nowhere.

You’re making the assumption that more tiers of gear will be added. We simply don’t know that. It may happen.

I might even leave the game if it does.

I still believe this was a stop gap measure while Anet worked on other things to keep people playing.

The only assumption I’m making is that VP will happen. And we can assume that because Anet said it would be happening. There is no need for new tiers of gear. In fact, when they introduced VP in the AMA they said they had no current plans for new tiers of gear and that they planned to carry VP out through upgrades (infusions) to existing gear once it was all out.

I, too, believe that they introduced VP as a stop gap measure to keep people playing; an incentive to play is one of the key reasons to introduce VP. But, at any rate, it’s here and will be here until it’s removed from the game.

Subdue.5479:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Xenon.4537:

Ascended gear isn’t dumb, you just don’t yet understand that it’s an optional long-term goal meant for certain players who have the time and resources to pursue it. You are angry because you have been trained to expect something. Well things change. Different games are different. Is it not humanity’s ability to adapt one of its greatest strengths?

The same arguments could have been (and in some cases were) used to respond to the people who complained about nothing to do. Just as there is nothing sacred about a dislike for Ascended, there is nothing sacred about liking it, either. There is nothing inherently superior about either position.

Actually, I’d argue that a liking for ascended is an inherently superior position, because it does not take choices away from others. From those who like ascended item’s point of view, if you don’t want to work/grind/etc for them, you don’t have to, that’s your call. But those of you arguing against ascended aren’t just unwilling to work/grind/etc for them, you want to remove the option for others. That makes that side inherently selfish and inferior.

We are not talking about Ascended gear as a final point in time. We are not actually talking about choices either. We are talking about vertical progression where the power level of the game is related positively to time. That is, as time progresses, the power level of the game increases. In WoW, when I started playing, my HP was around 6k – 10k. Now it’s ~500k. The game still plays the same. Mobs take just as long to kill as they used to and I die just as quickly. The effects of VP haven’t actually taken that game anywhere; they have just forced a gaming population to ride a treadmill over time by artificially making current gear useless and forcing them to hop on the treadmill periodically.

That’s what VP is and it’s the selfish position to want to force it on a population that bought a game that was advertized as being “not about grinding gear”.

Just wanted to share what’s on my mind for a while now. I have no problem with the new acsended grade stuff. But to say it’s optional i don’t know and there lies my problem. Just last week i crafted my first weapons after 3 weeks of preparing it. And the req of mats made me stop after this one. But i like fractals i like the challange and the team play aspact of it or a least this is how i percieve it when i play. But after lvl 39 it comes to a hold becourse of the AR. I should also note that i have around 1 a 2 hours to play a day if i’m lucky. But back to the subject i’m unable to play it further becourse the lack of stats. So if i want to enjoy the aspect of the game that i like it isn’t optional. But unable to get becourse of the immense job to get more then 40AR note the other 5 should come from the 250 ecto of infusing the backpiece. This is just my thought that bothers me. The part that i like is to much of a grind for the time that i have avalible. just wanted to share this so that i have it off my back ^^

Cheers,

Raine.1394:

In WoW, when I started playing, my HP was around 6k – 10k. Now it’s ~500k. The game still plays the same. Mobs take just as long to kill as they used to and I die just as quickly. The effects of VP haven’t actually taken that game anywhere; they have just forced a gaming population to ride a treadmill over time by artificially making current gear useless and forcing them to hop on the treadmill periodically.

That’s what VP is and it’s the selfish position to want to force it on a population that bought a game that was advertized as being “not about grinding gear”.

+1…
still, it’s likely that VP won’t stop…because also if it’s the last tier, there will be the infusion treadmill.
what to say…maybe it’s too late for us

Kevan.8912:

Raine.1394:

In WoW, when I started playing, my HP was around 6k – 10k. Now it’s ~500k. The game still plays the same. Mobs take just as long to kill as they used to and I die just as quickly. The effects of VP haven’t actually taken that game anywhere; they have just forced a gaming population to ride a treadmill over time by artificially making current gear useless and forcing them to hop on the treadmill periodically.

That’s what VP is and it’s the selfish position to want to force it on a population that bought a game that was advertized as being “not about grinding gear”.

+1…
still, it’s likely that VP won’t stop…because also if it’s the last tier, there will be the infusion treadmill.
what to say…maybe it’s too late for us

They were talking about World of Warcraft, not Guild Wars 2 with that treadmill of VP. There’s currently no treadmill, just the one step and the potential for the next.

I have my doubts that step is going to happen as rapidly or as severely as people want to suggest too.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Kevan.8912:

Raine.1394:

In WoW, when I started playing, my HP was around 6k – 10k. Now it’s ~500k. The game still plays the same. Mobs take just as long to kill as they used to and I die just as quickly. The effects of VP haven’t actually taken that game anywhere; they have just forced a gaming population to ride a treadmill over time by artificially making current gear useless and forcing them to hop on the treadmill periodically.

That’s what VP is and it’s the selfish position to want to force it on a population that bought a game that was advertized as being “not about grinding gear”.

+1…
still, it’s likely that VP won’t stop…because also if it’s the last tier, there will be the infusion treadmill.
what to say…maybe it’s too late for us

They were talking about World of Warcraft, not Guild Wars 2 with that treadmill of VP. There’s currently no treadmill, just the one step and the potential for the next.

I have my doubts that step is going to happen as rapidly or as severely as people want to suggest too.

i know, i used to play WoW
and i know, for now it’s just one kitten grindy tier and not a treadmill. but we DO know (or, it’s VERY likely) there will be, at least with infusions.
may be it’s not rapid or “severe”, but it wouldn’t solve the problem

Subdue.5479:

IndigoSundown.5419:

It’s all a matter of perspective. There was one MMO that suggested it was not about grinding for BiS. Some people bought that game in spite of that advertising and QQ’d enough about nothing to do that BiS grind was added. This was also in spite of the fact that there are plenty of MMO’s that offer progression. Essentially, these people were saying. “Every game has to be the way we want it, you can’t have one like you want it.” That’s the poster child for selfish.

However, it’s not that simple from either side. People who asked for grind did not set out to take anything away from anyone, and people who hate Ascended are not trying to take anything away from anyone. Both sides are arguing for a game that is played the way they want it to play. Next time you want to throw stones at people over this issue, I suggest you look at which side actually got their way and which side didn’t.

Regardless of what you feel people set out to do, the fact remains that the way ascended gear was implemented, those who don’t like to grind are in no way forced to, and are in no way locked out of content, outside of their own psychosis that is. The opposite is true if ascended gear were not implemented at all, the people who enjoy that sort of thing would have nothing.

Way to miss the point. What you want is morally superior? You’d have nothing? Bull gravy.

Without Ascended, you’d have the entire game, minus steeper gear acquisition. With Ascended, we have the entire game, minus shallower gear acquisition. You call our “want” a psychosis, while implying that your want is a divine right. Sorry, your want is not better than ours, it’s just different.

Lack of Ascended would not lock you out of content. If Agony had been implemented without Ascended, there would have been another way to get resistance. Other types of grind could have been added to feed your “need to grind” neurosis. You got Ascended because it was easier and cheaper busywork to implement than other options.

And fwiw, I’m not arguing against Ascended because I want to take it away from you. I’m arguing to get ANet to think twice about adding more tiers. Ascended is a done deal, they won’t take it away from you.

The problem with ascended was with the method of release.

If it were all released at once and we were assured “Yep we felt like we were missing a tier at release, so this is it!” , people would be annoyed but at least you’d be able to plan out what you wanted to do. A lot of people would realize the nominal boost wasn’t trivial but at the very least you could point out it was a whole lot of work for not that much gain and ignore it mostly.

But because it was released bit by bit there were time gates and people feeling like they had to hoard all kinds of materials because “what if…” and if they were done crafting the crap they wanted, they had to stand around waiting for w/e new ascended crap to be released.

If people could get dark matter and fragments and dragonite from the very moment ascended came along I would bet there would be much less squabble. But here it just feels like you’ve completing one annoying task only to be beset by another. By staggering the release, they dictated the pace of this “long term” goal. And that’s something I don’t like. I really don’t care if someone acquires full ascended in a month. I care about what I gear myself with.

It just seemed like a tacky way of getting people who just want to grind for gear to stay around longer. That’s a futile task. It also didn’t help that ascended trinkets were missing stat combinations, giving an additional feeling that this wasn’t thought over much.

Ultimately, it’s not that huge unless you’re like roaming wvw or something. The main source of angst is now that there is no guarantee that this is the final tier. The sliding ascended releases just made a few feel “is this the end yet?” And I think a lot of people don’t even mind (even if they don’t like) spending a bunch of effort to get something. But if said time and effort gets tossed aside because more crap gets released, then why bother? Same reason why exotic jewelry feels like quite the waste.

Also, alts. The end.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I do believe that economics played an important role in the Ascended decision. We’ll never know what might have happened if ANet had opted to provide the promised horizontal/cosmetic progression rather than shallow vertical progression. They had the opportunity to push the alternative MMO progression they advertised. However, it doesn’t take an economist to realize that adding Ascended Rings and a back-piece took a lot less resources than developing the robust options for skill-based and/or cosmetic progression that would have been needed for HP.

It also doesn’t take a programmer to realize the difficulty of retooling some things which are desperately called for (ranger pets, “DPS is king”, “Traherne killed my story”) are expensive in employee hours and requirement for creating new assets in some cases to handle it without botching.

Right now, Arenanet has their focus on finishing out their Living World “Season 1” with Scarlet. They have their CDI notes, but we know nothing significant and quick is going to come out of them.

Even if they hit the brakes right now on everything else and started working on something purely horizontal progression, we would probably be . . . I’ll say three months from seeing it hit live release.

During which, there’s the risk of people departing because there’s no longer anything to do except wait.

Yeah. If ANET will not change things until D3 RoS will be released I’m out. Grinding for gear is much more fun in D3 as it was DESIGNED for this. You get gear by killing monster – simple what about this game is. And Blizzard at least heard players – no more RMAH, loot better, mystic that will allow to change stats on the gear.

GW2 was designed to not have gear grind. They added it but didn’t give any new content with it. Like really ?! I need to go and grind for middle tier mats with my lvl 80 char in low level zones ?! Best design ever !

WRay.2391:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I do believe that economics played an important role in the Ascended decision. We’ll never know what might have happened if ANet had opted to provide the promised horizontal/cosmetic progression rather than shallow vertical progression. They had the opportunity to push the alternative MMO progression they advertised. However, it doesn’t take an economist to realize that adding Ascended Rings and a back-piece took a lot less resources than developing the robust options for skill-based and/or cosmetic progression that would have been needed for HP.

It also doesn’t take a programmer to realize the difficulty of retooling some things which are desperately called for (ranger pets, “DPS is king”, “Traherne killed my story”) are expensive in employee hours and requirement for creating new assets in some cases to handle it without botching.

Right now, Arenanet has their focus on finishing out their Living World “Season 1” with Scarlet. They have their CDI notes, but we know nothing significant and quick is going to come out of them.

Even if they hit the brakes right now on everything else and started working on something purely horizontal progression, we would probably be . . . I’ll say three months from seeing it hit live release.

During which, there’s the risk of people departing because there’s no longer anything to do except wait.

Yeah. If ANET will not change things until D3 RoS will be released I’m out. Grinding for gear is much more fun in D3 as it was DESIGNED for this. You get gear by killing monster – simple what about this game is. And Blizzard at least heard players – no more RMAH, loot better, mystic that will allow to change stats on the gear.

GW2 was designed to not have gear grind. They added it but didn’t give any new content with it. Like really ?! I need to go and grind for middle tier mats with my lvl 80 char in low level zones ?! Best design ever !

Your point is absolutely the only valid point I have ever seen against vertical progression. I am for vertical progression, but I agree entirely that it is pretty lame to release a new gear tier with no content to support it.

Instead, you go and farm eons of low level mats or….. convert money to gems and buy the mats.

WRay.2391:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I do believe that economics played an important role in the Ascended decision. We’ll never know what might have happened if ANet had opted to provide the promised horizontal/cosmetic progression rather than shallow vertical progression. They had the opportunity to push the alternative MMO progression they advertised. However, it doesn’t take an economist to realize that adding Ascended Rings and a back-piece took a lot less resources than developing the robust options for skill-based and/or cosmetic progression that would have been needed for HP.

It also doesn’t take a programmer to realize the difficulty of retooling some things which are desperately called for (ranger pets, “DPS is king”, “Traherne killed my story”) are expensive in employee hours and requirement for creating new assets in some cases to handle it without botching.

Right now, Arenanet has their focus on finishing out their Living World “Season 1” with Scarlet. They have their CDI notes, but we know nothing significant and quick is going to come out of them.

Even if they hit the brakes right now on everything else and started working on something purely horizontal progression, we would probably be . . . I’ll say three months from seeing it hit live release.

During which, there’s the risk of people departing because there’s no longer anything to do except wait.

Yeah. If ANET will not change things until D3 RoS will be released I’m out. Grinding for gear is much more fun in D3 as it was DESIGNED for this. You get gear by killing monster – simple what about this game is. And Blizzard at least heard players – no more RMAH, loot better, mystic that will allow to change stats on the gear.

GW2 was designed to not have gear grind. They added it but didn’t give any new content with it. Like really ?! I need to go and grind for middle tier mats with my lvl 80 char in low level zones ?! Best design ever !

Way to not understand how the game works.

You don’t EVER have to grind mats in a middle level zone. You can run dungeons, play around in Orr, earn gold and buy low level mats on the trading post. There’s no real grinding involved, unless for some odd reason you absolutely MUST get the mats yourself.

In a game where anyone can go anywhere, only the people who want to go back to those zones have to. Everyone else can do whatever tasks they like that make money. Dungeons work. Fractals work. Following the champ train works. Playing the marketplace works. Going and doing world events works.

No one is telling you you have to take your character into low level zones. That’s a mental thing, based on the idea that you don’t want to throw gold at the mats you need.

WRay.2391:

GW2 was designed to not have gear grind. They added it but didn’t give any new content with it. Like really ?! I need to go and grind for middle tier mats with my lvl 80 char in low level zones ?! Best design ever !

I mean, if you want to have the gear. Sure, go nuts, that’s the only means right now.

Personally? I don’t want to bother so I’m going to be comfy in the stuff I have now (which isn’t ugly) and work on achievements for Wintersday (I want to complete the toy mini set) and once done with that? Work on completing my banner collection with my alts (just need to get over Sieran and go for it). After that?

Probably try to get better at WvW.

spiritus.7983:

Kevan.8912:

vertical progression binds me to a sense of inferiority, grind like a necessary work to be done for a mandatory aim.

tell this to “dedicated players”

I believe you meant “dedicated grinders” here ? If it’s a gameplay then I will definitely leave this game. For now I’m just hanging here waiting for results of CDI thread.

timidobserver.7925:

WRay.2391:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I do believe that economics played an important role in the Ascended decision. We’ll never know what might have happened if ANet had opted to provide the promised horizontal/cosmetic progression rather than shallow vertical progression. They had the opportunity to push the alternative MMO progression they advertised. However, it doesn’t take an economist to realize that adding Ascended Rings and a back-piece took a lot less resources than developing the robust options for skill-based and/or cosmetic progression that would have been needed for HP.

It also doesn’t take a programmer to realize the difficulty of retooling some things which are desperately called for (ranger pets, “DPS is king”, “Traherne killed my story”) are expensive in employee hours and requirement for creating new assets in some cases to handle it without botching.

Right now, Arenanet has their focus on finishing out their Living World “Season 1” with Scarlet. They have their CDI notes, but we know nothing significant and quick is going to come out of them.

Even if they hit the brakes right now on everything else and started working on something purely horizontal progression, we would probably be . . . I’ll say three months from seeing it hit live release.

During which, there’s the risk of people departing because there’s no longer anything to do except wait.

Yeah. If ANET will not change things until D3 RoS will be released I’m out. Grinding for gear is much more fun in D3 as it was DESIGNED for this. You get gear by killing monster – simple what about this game is. And Blizzard at least heard players – no more RMAH, loot better, mystic that will allow to change stats on the gear.

GW2 was designed to not have gear grind. They added it but didn’t give any new content with it. Like really ?! I need to go and grind for middle tier mats with my lvl 80 char in low level zones ?! Best design ever !

Your point is absolutely the only valid point I have ever seen against vertical progression. I am for vertical progression, but I agree entirely that it is pretty lame to release a new gear tier with no content to support it.

Instead, you go and farm eons of low level mats or….. convert money to gems and buy the mats.

LoL I’m sure that was one of the reasons. Exactly that is why I will never buy gems from ANET anymore until they’ll fix this at least at some extent. If I’ll need gold so badly I’ll prefer to buy it from some gold spammer in current circumstances.