Guild Wars 2

Guild wars 2 has such a large amount of options with different stats on gear, should, traits, skills, and runes yet most builds are unusable and way under powered.

Alot of the builds are usable actually, it just depends on the situation.

they should buff the scaling of healing power to begin with
and remove Ferocity as a stat from the game. and make crit dmg 150% baseline.

also

ALLOT of traits for allot of classes need buffs or TOTAL reworks.

Zoltreez.6435:

they should buff the scaling of healing power to begin with
and remove Ferocity as a stat from the game. and make crit dmg 150% baseline.

also

ALLOT of traits for allot of classes need buffs or TOTAL reworks.

Not sure if serious…

Both of you spelt ‘a lot’ incorrectly.

And yeah, they need to do some serious skill and trait balancing for HoT.

depending on your goal, much more might be possible then you think

Power is only 1 of the ways you can use to buff your damage potential, and a lot of people ignore conditional (when target has conditionm/below x health) or weapons based bonusses, +5%, +10%…. even though they stack multiplicatively, also might is oftyen forgotten as an efficinet way to boost dmg for solo play.

Most builds are very viable, but most people just want 1, 2 maybe 3 main builds for pure DPS, if you look at WvW you’ll notice the variety of builds is much higher, people actually use condition builds for solo or small group play.

Not so though in PvE as the majority of people has been led to beleive zerk -meta- is the only way to play. Tis makes healing builds, boon/buff builds an unwanted stain on the set of people who are led to beleive conditions have no function (while they depend on vlulnerability, blinds, chill, stuns, dazes and weakness to stay alive.)

The difference between a zerk- meta and a speedrun group is the actual knowledge of conditions and applying them. DPS is partly gained by your build, but most is gained by efficiently supporting eachother.

Lifestealer.4910:

Zoltreez.6435:

they should buff the scaling of healing power to begin with
and remove Ferocity as a stat from the game. and make crit dmg 150% baseline.

also

ALLOT of traits for allot of classes need buffs or TOTAL reworks.

Not sure if serious…

Why would he not be? He’s absolutely correct. Ferocity is one of the reasons that Zerker builds are the meta. And healing power is currently pure garbage.

Ralanost.8913:

Lifestealer.4910:

Zoltreez.6435:

they should buff the scaling of healing power to begin with
and remove Ferocity as a stat from the game. and make crit dmg 150% baseline.

also

ALLOT of traits for allot of classes need buffs or TOTAL reworks.

Not sure if serious…

Why would he not be? He’s absolutely correct. Ferocity is one of the reasons that Zerker builds are the meta. And healing power is currently pure garbage.

Zerker is only meta in pve, his solution would completely butcher the other game modes. Not only that some class depends on zerker such as thieves and mesmers because its their way to do effecient damage, if the crit base was to be implemented then those classes would be gutted.

Ralanost.8913:

Lifestealer.4910:

Zoltreez.6435:

they should buff the scaling of healing power to begin with
and remove Ferocity as a stat from the game. and make crit dmg 150% baseline.

also

ALLOT of traits for allot of classes need buffs or TOTAL reworks.

Not sure if serious…

Why would he not be? He’s absolutely correct. Ferocity is one of the reasons that Zerker builds are the meta. And healing power is currently pure garbage.

Without ferocity knight would be the next meta .. and then we need to remove
precision

Beldin.5498:

Ralanost.8913:

Lifestealer.4910:

Zoltreez.6435:

they should buff the scaling of healing power to begin with
and remove Ferocity as a stat from the game. and make crit dmg 150% baseline.

also

ALLOT of traits for allot of classes need buffs or TOTAL reworks.

Not sure if serious…

Why would he not be? He’s absolutely correct. Ferocity is one of the reasons that Zerker builds are the meta. And healing power is currently pure garbage.

Without ferocity knight would be the next meta .. and then we need to remove
precision

Yes. People wanting these “changes” to the “meta” need to remember that any change to the current meta will just lead to the next meta, it’s an endless cycle of nerfs and metas.

It depends on what you mean by unusable.

There are very few (possibly no) builds in this game which are literally so bad that it’s impossible to play them at all. However there are many builds which (justified or otherwise) are not welcome in many groups. And if you’re talking about high-end “hardcore” group activities – speed clearing dungeons, winning PvP tournaments, etc. then you are down to a very small number of builds.

But for the majority of people, the majority of the time, it’s a lot more flexible.

For example my main character is ranger, who mainly focuses on conditions and critical hits, split evenly between her and her pet. I know for a fact it’s not the best possible ranger build, it’s not even the best one I could have made, but it’s the most fun I’ve found and works well enough that I’m able to do open-world PvE without problems and only need to make minor changes for casual dungeon groups and WvW.

Since that’s all I want to do on this character it works.

Because OP you have not come up with a new one everyone wants to use yet.

Most boss encounters are designed in a certain way. This favors certain builds. To change this you have to design encounters that have different goals. If the goal is to keep a key target alive by applying as many and as long-lasting boons to it as possible you need a different build compared to a goal where you have to control a key target as efficient as possible.

The key lies therefore in a much higher variety for the encounters than we have today.

Belenwyn.8674:

Most boss encounters are designed in a certain way. This favors certain builds. To change this you have to design encounters that have different goals. If the goal is to keep a key target alive by applying as many and as long-lasting boons to it as possible you need a different build compared to a goal where you have to control a key target as efficient as possible.

The key lies therefore in a much higher variety for the encounters than we have today.

That is a very good description of the current situation in the game.

Beldin.5498:

Without ferocity knight would be the next meta .. and then we need to remove
precision

Shouldn’t it be Rampager’s? If it’s about giving up defenses for highest possible DPS, a few more ticks of condition damage and higher frequency of crits would be preferable to toughness.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

depending on your goal, much more might be possible then you think

Power is only 1 of the ways you can use to buff your damage potential, and a lot of people ignore conditional (when target has conditionm/below x health) or weapons based bonusses, +5%, +10%…. even though they stack multiplicatively, also might is oftyen forgotten as an efficinet way to boost dmg for solo play.

Most builds are very viable, but most people just want 1, 2 maybe 3 main builds for pure DPS, if you look at WvW you’ll notice the variety of builds is much higher, people actually use condition builds for solo or small group play.

Not so though in PvE as the majority of people has been led to beleive zerk -meta- is the only way to play. Tis makes healing builds, boon/buff builds an unwanted stain on the set of people who are led to beleive conditions have no function (while they depend on vlulnerability, blinds, chill, stuns, dazes and weakness to stay alive.)

The difference between a zerk- meta and a speedrun group is the actual knowledge of conditions and applying them. DPS is partly gained by your build, but most is gained by efficiently supporting eachother.

OK lets tell the other 150+ players beating down on a boss to please work their conditions efficiently.
Sorry but I disagree with you.. the build diversity in GW2 is amongst the worst I have ever come across in an MMO in over 10+ yrs.
There simply is no need for Ferocity, Precision is more than enough. Healing Power sucks donkey and conditions builds are completely inefficient in PvE when Jo Bloggs the zerk warrior can make my necro conditions count for nowt.
Every class has the ability to push out a number of conditions whilst performing the tasks their actual build is meant for thus creating ineffective condi builds – simply put GW2 has inherently awful game mechanics when it comes to conditions.
The game is centred around zerk build 99% of the time, even much of the content is eered to this safe thinking to the point that bosses now have large condition invulnerability modes built into them (kicking condi builds in the face that little bit harder).
So yes I actually agree with the OP and others here.. the whole build diversity in GW2 (PvE) is a pile of Quaggan poop and needs a thorough rework by people that actually have a clue on what diversity does for an MMO…

Pandaman.4758:

Beldin.5498:

Without ferocity knight would be the next meta .. and then we need to remove
precision

Shouldn’t it be Rampager’s? If it’s about giving up defenses for highest possible DPS, a few more ticks of condition damage and higher frequency of crits would be preferable to toughness.

no because conditions in group pve are broken and therefore useless

Lifestealer.4910:

Zerker is only meta in pve, his solution would completely butcher the other game modes. Not only that some class depends on zerker such as thieves and mesmers because its their way to do effecient damage, if the crit base was to be implemented then those classes would be gutted.

It also doesn’t make much sense.
If you want to remove a direct damage stat (something I support, in general), then it ought to be Precision, crit chance.

Why?
Because inherent crit chance could be a very interesting class / trait / weapon balancing mechanic. Maybe a Thief would have a 10% higher innate crit chance, so, say, 25% base chance to crit, further increased by 5% for wielding a dagger for the attack. Maybe daggers having a 5% higher crit chance is a common feature of the weapon type.

(random examples, not at all thought out well :P )

But in any case, I could see a stable amount of crit chance as a very good balance tuning knob. I can’t see that with crit damage.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/PvX-Discussion-about-stats/first#post4836252

You’re mistaken, OP. All builds are usable, but only a select few builds are optimal. That goes without saying, though; no matter what you do some builds will be more useful for certain content than others, and that’s okay. You just have to decide if you want to play optimally or not, and make sure to set your expectations both for groups and for your personal speed based on that.

I found it kind of tragic that when I started playing league you had the exact same kind of boring topics on their boards as well whining about build diversity.

What people don’t understand is that there will always be a smaller number of optimal paths, but that a lot of other options are viable and you can beat content with it. For example, you can build full damage on tank champions even though they have huge base stats and don’t need it and will probably explode since you need to dive in fights and soak damage – but it’s still possible if your team can follow up or you have good enough positioning and reflexes.

Now coming to Guild Wars 2, you have your standard builds maximising support and damage featuring traits that consist of damage modifiers, increased offensive boon uptime (or depending on the class) or increased defensive boon uptime. These utilise stat combinations like berserker or assassin, and for solo content sinister is a very strong option on a number of classes too.

But just like here, in league you have people complaining about metas. You have people whining that there’s no point playing gragas mid when you’ve got powerhouses like lissandra or kassadin. well yeah, they’re strong (uh….. RIP kassadin next patch) – but that’s more because they counter a lot of the meta and they’re flex-picks that can’t be counterpicked either because they can just go in to a different lane and perform exactly the same. whereas if someone were to pick say, a katarina you know 100% they will be in the mid-lane and you can pick your mid laner accordingly since she’s a lot easier to counter pick. and that’s simply because some options are better than others. this is a reality in video games, and people need to understand that while all options are viable there will always be a select few that are optimal.

Just to throw the OP a bone…

I played this game since launch (on and off) and I find that a lot of the stat combinations are either sub-optimal or downright abysmal:

Optimal:

• Berserker: all round good for every kind of activity
• Knight: tankier version of berserker, still very good
• Celestial: another all-rounder, useful because more stat points compared to other set-ups
• Dire: probably the best condition build
• Rabid: 2nd best condition build (in my opinion)
• Sentinel: if you’re a WvW commander, else it’s bad

Sub-optimal:

• Soldier: cause berserker has more damage, and the extra vitality and toughness don’t really change a lot in most PvP situations, and are useless in PvE. Good for people who suck at their class, i.e. noobs.
• Valkyrie: vitality is a no-go for most classes because warrior, necro, ranger, engi, mesmer base HP are quite good; classes that have lower vitality still can use it such as guard, ele, thief (though the latter are better off with either celestial and berserk)
• Carrion: while not as good as dire or rabid (power on a condition build isn’t optimal), it’s still possible to run this “ok”.
• Settler: an “ok” condition stat for people who like healing, worse than the ones above though. I never use this without switching some dire or rabid in.

Abysmal:

• Every possible other stat combo

segman.3560:

Pandaman.4758:

Beldin.5498:

Without ferocity knight would be the next meta .. and then we need to remove
precision

Shouldn’t it be Rampager’s? If it’s about giving up defenses for highest possible DPS, a few more ticks of condition damage and higher frequency of crits would be preferable to toughness.

no because conditions in group pve are broken and therefore useless

Oh, true, was only thinking of single player PvE.

Ralanost.8913:

Why would he not be? He’s absolutely correct. Ferocity is one of the reasons that Zerker builds are the meta. And healing power is currently pure garbage.

staff ele with healing power can heal 70% of their teammates health back up. It’s not garbage, it’s just that most people don’t see the reason to run healer and therefore don’t know how useful it is.

segman.3560:

no because conditions in group pve are broken and therefore useless

group PVE is not the majority of the game though. In dungeons it works just fine even if your party has 2 hybrids and works very well in Spvp.

Belenwyn.8674:

Most boss encounters are designed in a certain way. This favors certain builds. To change this you have to design encounters that have different goals. If the goal is to keep a key target alive by applying as many and as long-lasting boons to it as possible you need a different build compared to a goal where you have to control a key target as efficient as possible.

The key lies therefore in a much higher variety for the encounters than we have today.

healing up siege carriers in Silverwastes is really fun. And Tequatl is Crit Immune. So I think that Anet is actually doing a variety of mechanics, but most don’t notice.

Zoltreez.6435:

ALLOT of traits for allot of classes need buffs or TOTAL reworks.

helps if you give suggestions to rework specific traits.

Whenever I switch to phalanx warrior build the whole party seems to love it. I’ve never seen other warriors (aside from 1 friend) have the same build as me and I’ve never gotten any push-back from it.

I feel like there’s at least a couple viable builds on each class. Seems like enough to me.. But for those who are unhappy with that, the new expansion will definitely add more

The planned role for condition damage, as has already been seen in the Silverwastes, seems to be as “nutcrackers” who specifically exist to deal with any heavily-armoured high-value targets that might show up.

Otherwise, healing power is actually decent already, as long as you actually want to be really good at surviving in long fights:

1. A Mesmer using Ether Feast on cooldown ‘spends’ 5% of her DPS to convert 5% of her healing power rating into hitpoints every second.
2. If we accept “the total amount of damage you might deal before dying” as a measure of a character’s value, then losing 5% of your DPS effectively makes each of your hitpoints 5% less valuable.
3. Were she completely unarmed and wearing nothing besides the default lingerie, our mesmer could have up to 18,182 hitpoints.
4. From this, it follows that our mesmer effectively loses 909.1 hitpoints as an additional ‘cost’ to pursuing a healing strategy beyond the cost of building healing power over vitality.
5. With 800 healing power, you create 40 hitpoints per second, and would need to heal a total of 8909.1 extra hp in order to get the same benefit as just taking 800 vitality. That takes 223 seconds.
6. Note that I’m pretending that Chaos gives Healing Power and Inspiration gives Boon Duration, because I’m too lazy to account for that not being true.

Remember that if you want to be tanky, you’re probably looking to get into long fights, so this makes healing power look fairly competitive to me. I’m fairly sure every prof has skills that give at least this good a return on healing power for the same or lower DPS loss.

Mirta.5029:

healing up siege carriers in Silverwastes is really fun. And Tequatl is Crit Immune. So I think that Carbine is actually doing a variety of mechanics, but most don’t notice.

TIL: The Mordrem Vinewrath and Tequatl the Sunless are bosses from Wildstar, not GW2. :P

Bloodstealer.5978:

Sorry but I disagree with you.. the build diversity in GW2 is amongst the worst I have ever come across in an MMO in over 10+ yrs.

I’m not exactly sure what MMO’s you were playing because this isn’t the case at all, outside of PVE GW2 has more viable builds than any other MMO.

Ferocity should stay. But would be nice to see a rework in the way it scales your crit dmg. After some point it should start having dimish returns. Requiring more and more ferocity for each extra 1% crit dmg. The magic find system is a good analogy. Thougness has dimish returns, for every 1% dmg reduction you need more and more thoughness.

Healing power needs a slighly buff. Not too much or it would be easy to outheal everything in spvp. Focus the buffs in group suppor rather than individual skills would be good. Maybe make blasting a water field consider the healing power from the player who places the water field. Similar to how thieves’ shared vennons work now. They use the condi dmg from the thief not from the ally that recieved it.

evilunderling.9265:

TIL: The Mordrem Vinewrath and Tequatl the Sunless are bosses from Wildstar, not GW2. :P

now I’m super confused, because re-done version of Tequatl launched earlier than Wildstar o.o

EDIT: oh, woops, wrote Carbine instead of Anet XD

that being said, I see correlation between aetherblade fractal, asura boss that spawns golems and the end of Skullcano and thaumanova reactor fractal end boss and X-89. :P

actually, make it so if you invest in to healing power you can fully burst heal your entire party

and then watch as people still don’t take healers

:)

Usable != Most efficient.

I can almost guarantee you that every single build in the game can complete the vast majority of the content.

Shiyo.3578:

Bloodstealer.5978:

Sorry but I disagree with you.. the build diversity in GW2 is amongst the worst I have ever come across in an MMO in over 10+ yrs.

I’m not exactly sure what MMO’s you were playing because this isn’t the case at all, outside of PVE GW2 has more viable builds than any other MMO.

Sorry but 2 maybe 3 viable builds per class is nothing amazing. WoW had that a decade ago, since tons of games copied WoW, by extension, so do they. GW2 is not great in viable build variety and certainly doesn’t have the most viable builds. It has tons of sub-optimal builds though, that’s mostly due to incredibly poor balancing and bad game design. Although you could make a sub-optimal build in WoW vanilla as well by just slapping points into random trees so it’s really nothing to be proud of.

Distaste.4801:

Shiyo.3578:

Bloodstealer.5978:

Sorry but I disagree with you.. the build diversity in GW2 is amongst the worst I have ever come across in an MMO in over 10+ yrs.

I’m not exactly sure what MMO’s you were playing because this isn’t the case at all, outside of PVE GW2 has more viable builds than any other MMO.

Sorry but 2 maybe 3 viable builds per class is nothing amazing. WoW had that a decade ago, since tons of games copied WoW, by extension, so do they. GW2 is not great in viable build variety and certainly doesn’t have the most viable builds. It has tons of sub-optimal builds though, that’s mostly due to incredibly poor balancing and bad game design. Although you could make a sub-optimal build in WoW vanilla as well by just slapping points into random trees so it’s really nothing to be proud of.

No, 2-3 viable builds per class in PVP is more than any MMO ever made.

lordkrall.7241:

Usable != Most efficient.

I can almost guarantee you that every single build in the game can complete the vast majority of the content.

150 condition builds trying to kill tequatl :P

Shiyo.3578:

Distaste.4801:

Shiyo.3578:

Bloodstealer.5978:

Sorry but I disagree with you.. the build diversity in GW2 is amongst the worst I have ever come across in an MMO in over 10+ yrs.

I’m not exactly sure what MMO’s you were playing because this isn’t the case at all, outside of PVE GW2 has more viable builds than any other MMO.

Sorry but 2 maybe 3 viable builds per class is nothing amazing. WoW had that a decade ago, since tons of games copied WoW, by extension, so do they. GW2 is not great in viable build variety and certainly doesn’t have the most viable builds. It has tons of sub-optimal builds though, that’s mostly due to incredibly poor balancing and bad game design. Although you could make a sub-optimal build in WoW vanilla as well by just slapping points into random trees so it’s really nothing to be proud of.

No, 2-3 viable builds per class in PVP is more than any MMO ever made.

Nope, Vanilla WoW had that. Frost mage, arcane mage, Fire mage and frost/fire combo. I know because I played all 4. Frost for CC/kiting the arcane was pom+toep+pyro, fire was fireballs and fire/fire allowed even more CC chains(was awesome for flag escort). Shamans had the healing spec, damage casting spec, and melee spec. Priests had holy, disc, or shadow. Warriors had prot and arms(which had 2 variants iirc). Warlocks had destruction or debuffs. Rogues had swords, daggers(backstab), or stun.

Any MMO with 3 trees has the exact same build variety that WoW did and GW2 does. GW2 is built in a way that things that could add to build diversity are either broken or underpowered. ArenaNet has refused in 2.5 years to fix them.

Distaste.4801:

GW2 is built in a way that things that could add to build diversity are either broken or underpowered. ArenaNet has refused in 2.5 years to fix them.

examples of that would be nice. Which traits, skills and/ or trait lines on which characters?

maha.7902:

and people need to understand that while all options are viable there will always be a select few that are optimal.

That’s lazy game design.

You are comparing this to League of Legends, but that’s a bad comparison – LoL is basically the same scenario (PvP with the lanes defending the fortresses and that combination of NPC management and player-controlled enemies to be killed), driven by a strong meta.

GW2 has no need to follow the same scenario all the time. Which means, while for each scenario there will certainly be only a few optimal builds, there is nothing preventing the game from having multiple different scenarions, so no build is the optimal build all the time, and all builds are the optimal build some of the time.

That’s GW2’s main failure, in this aspect. The same few builds are the optimal build in almost everything. That’s what needs to be changed.

lordkrall.7241:

Usable != Most efficient.

I can almost guarantee you that every single build in the game can complete the vast majority of the content.

Which is proof of how the vast majority of the game is way too easy.

Test.8734:

That’s GW2’s main failure, in this aspect. The same few builds are the optimal build in almost everything. That’s what needs to be changed.

Are you saying that the same build are the meta in PvE, WvW and sPvP? Because there are all different.

Test.8734:

Which is proof of how the vast majority of the game is way too easy.

And who is arguing that the game is too hard? We all know that the game is too easy and we all want harder content.

Mirta.5029:

Distaste.4801:

GW2 is built in a way that things that could add to build diversity are either broken or underpowered. ArenaNet has refused in 2.5 years to fix them.

examples of that would be nice. Which traits, skills and/ or trait lines on which characters?

I apologize for being that guy, but you can easily answer this question yourself by briefly skimming the first couple pages of basically any Proffession forum.

Every Proffession has a list of Traits, Weapon Skills, and Utilities they’ve voiced grievances about since day one.

These complaints are voiced so frequently and for so long that they can, and should, be considered common knowledge. I don’ t think it’s necessary to try and distract from the argument with unneccesary handwaving.

Krestfallen.8025:

I apologize for being that guy, but you can easily answer this question yourself by briefly skimming the first couple pages of basically any Proffession forum.

Every Proffession has a list of Traits, Weapon Skills, and Utilities they’ve voiced grievances about since day one.

These complaints are voiced so frequently and for so long that they can, and should, be considered common knowledge. I don’ t think it’s necessary to try and distract from the argument with unneccesary handwaving.

I looked at the character I’m on right now and I can see how all of the traits are useful. Perhaps they’re not the meta, doesn’t mean that they’re not useful.

LOOOOL at the people saying that its not meta but content still can be done

of course you can do most of the content with any build but but there is a difference when 1 build is 100%-200% more effective then another and THATS HUGE.

Zoltreez.6435:

LOOOOL at the people saying that its not meta but content still can be done

of course you can do most of the content with any build but but there is a difference when 1 build is 100%-200% more effective then another and THATS HUGE.

That doesn’t make a build unusable though. Which is what the whole discussion is about. You might not want to use it, but it is still very much usable.

The best way to solve the pve zerker issue without causing another stats set to bethe new ideal is to make mobs almost as strong as players (movement,attack speed, more skills and anti skills) then give mobs certain skills to make up for the unintelligent AI. By the time you get outnumbered by hard hitting mobs who have skills similar to endure pain, can cleanse well and apply 5 high stack damage condis you will be forced to mix up your stats.

Unfortunately this counts as hardcore which is against Anet’s agenda so don’t expect a meta change anytime soon.

Zoltreez.6435:

they should buff the scaling of healing power to begin

snip

ALLOT of traits for allot of classes need buffs or TOTAL reworks.

Ok, I’ll say it strait about these two suggestions (for ferocity, I have no constructive opinion to post here) :

• Buffing Healing power : WHATFOR ? What function will a boosted Healing skill perform that is not already covered by more active defenses ?
• Buffing or reworking traits : Which ones and (again) in order to fulfil what goal ?

Usually, when a dev team decides to rework a trait it’s because said trait does not work as intended. Tell me precisely which traits do not work as intended and then we’ll discuss what should be done.

Right now you’re flailing the emptiness with this kind of post.

It sounds like ANET is overhauling the game with HoT.
There is a lot of depth to this game, but It seems to me most of depth can only be appreciated in PvP

Mirta.5029:

Krestfallen.8025:

I apologize for being that guy, but you can easily answer this question yourself by briefly skimming the first couple pages of basically any Proffession forum.

Every Proffession has a list of Traits, Weapon Skills, and Utilities they’ve voiced grievances about since day one.

These complaints are voiced so frequently and for so long that they can, and should, be considered common knowledge. I don’ t think it’s necessary to try and distract from the argument with unneccesary handwaving.

I looked at the character I’m on right now and I can see how all of the traits are useful. Perhaps they’re not the meta, doesn’t mean that they’re not useful.

You will note that I did not employ the world “useless” (or any variation thereof) anywhere in my post. Rather I said specifically, “voiced grievances about.”

You and I are in agreement on the fundamental premise that anything which can be used does in fact have a use. However there is a distinction between something which has a use and something which has a practical use: The more “niche” an ability (weapon skill, utility, or trait) is, or if the sacrifice to obtain it is greater than the benefit of being able to use it, the less impact it has on build diversity.

Irregardless, if you are going to quote me then I humbly request that you address things I’ve actually said, rather than things you wish I had said: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Can somebody name a build that isn’t usable?

Seems as if a lot of the conflict here comes from a misunderstanding. “Useful,” and, “viable,” are not synonymous with, “optimal.”

Krestfallen.8025:

You will note that I did not employ the world “useless” (or any variation thereof) anywhere in my post. Rather I said specifically, “voiced grievances about.”

You and I are in agreement on the fundamental premise that anything which can be used does in fact have a use. However there is a distinction between something which has a use and something which has a practical use: The more “niche” an ability (weapon skill, utility, or trait) is, or if the sacrifice to obtain it is greater than the benefit of being able to use it, the less impact it has on build diversity.

Irregardless, if you are going to quote me then I humbly request that you address things I’ve actually said, rather than things you wish I had said: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

okay, then how about, if they’re not useless, they’re not broken? Some people use them in their builds when they build for specific purposes. Your normal meta would only build for straightforward damage, so removing/ changing builds would just result in less build diversity. So I’m still waiting on an answer of what the traits that are completely pointless are.

And can you stop being so negative towards people? “Should be considered common knowledge”, but that’s not necessarily what OP is talking about. Also if it’s common knowledge, why do I not know about it? Also quoting a strawman? How is saying that if traits are useful then they’re fine a strawman?

VodCom.6924:

• Buffing or reworking traits : Which ones and (again) in order to fulfil what goal ?

Venoms and traps for thief, especially venoms not basilisk, extremely weak and not worth using. 1s of chill x3? 1 stack of vuln x3? Remove venom share and rebalance venoms around only the thief having them applied, shadow arts is already the most bloated tree in existence, no reason for it to have SO many good traits while a tree like acrobatics doesn’t have anything past 3 points.