Guild Wars 2

So it is fair to make people get less loot because they should be carrying you through the dungeon faster? You assume that a full zerk zerg dungeon is the way to go? The whole point of gw2 is that there is no meta, none of this elitist crap and I have to say they are on the right track, they nearly have it. As far as you are concerned unless the player is in zerk he is not helping you… sounds a bit selfish to me.

Here is an extract from a recent post on lfg;
“LF1M DPS warrior with serker set. CoF path1 speed farm link armors for invite!”

This is not the way the game was intended to be, you might try to mask it under efficiency but at the end of you want your loot, your loot, you don’t care if others get theirs as long as they dps fast enough so you can farm all day. You do care about someone with MF gear as this means there is a chance that they get better loot before you, answer is simple, you wear MF also and stop crying stof. You can shove your stats where you like for all I care. If I decide to wear mf then I put my stats a little, barely noticeable, lower, if I put my stats higher then I am putting my loot on the back burner, pros/cons to each. The only difference is players don’t kick you from a party for wearing berserkers.

As for the “kid” comment LOL, I was around before you were in diapers “kid”

SneakyErvin.3056:

But AC isnt whats being discussed in this thread, its about the difference in MF gear compared to useful gear. Everything is done better and quicker in proper gear, even AC.

Explorer gear is awful for dps, just like you proved by posting your stats earlier in the thread. Attack, crit, critdmg does not lie, it’s simple math. You also claim ramapgers would be higher damage, when there are actually better dps sets for condi classes that provide more survivability aswell i.e Rabid gear.

You will never reach close to the same condi damage bonus with rampager since rabid syncs much better with undead runes and some class traits. The power you gain from rampagers is not worth it, since condi is the lesser stat. Rabid has condi as main stat and still keeps the same precision, in addition to that you will gain even more from undead runes due to the toughness on rabid.

No. You made a snarky comment about my mentioning AC. I responded to that. You don’t now get to explain your lack of reading comprehension by insisting this thread is only about MF. (p.s. I like snarky comments as long as you don’t get obscene.)

Explorer’s and Knight’s both have power & precision. Those are are two best DPS stats. Explorer’s gear will give you better DPS than anything but Berserker’s or Rampager’s.

Rampager’s is better than Rabid because all three of Rampager’s stats are damage. Undead runes only turn 5% of toughness into conditional damage. So no, they do not get you to Rampager levels of DPS. It won’t even get you to Knight’s/Explorer levels of DPS because power is far more valuable than precision when it comes to straight DPS. (to get to those cases where Rabid, and hence precision, is more valuable, you need sigils and traits that proc on crit as well as move away from straight DPS to more of a DPS/survive hybrid…which is a much more involved discussion)

Carrion is cond damage/power, and it’s right in there with Knight’s and Explorer’s level of damage provided you can stack conditions very fast.

Ya know how I keep bringing up I’m a better player than average? Well, I’m also a better theorycrafter than average. There is a reason I end up with piles o’ alts in every game I play. It’s cuz I really, really enjoy testing and twinking and seeing what kind of oddball stuff I can make work.

I’d recommend not trying to tell me what is and is not good DPS

alcopaul.2156:

which is in black and white is like this

1.) you sacrifice important stats like critical damage and toughness in favor of magic find, a stat that increases your drops
2.) critical damage increases your dps which means less time to kill a target. toughness helps your survivability which make you deal the dps that is needed. magic find increases your drops and doesn’t do anything to alter your dps.
3.) if you have higher/constant source of DPS, it will entail that you finish the map faster, thus saving time.
4.) MF users are aware that these numbers that help the DPS of a team are absent and chose to have the rare drops instead.
5.) in a party of 5 with 4 non mf users, the mf user chose to have rare drops instead instead of equipping something that helps the total dps of the team.
6.) 4 non mf users performing their full potential and getting average drops while the mf user underperforming because of the lack of stats and getting the rare drops

Which when translated to common speak, the mf user “punishes his team mates for him to get the good stuffs” and “consciously underperforms but getting rewarded the most.”

it’s called “implications.”

Interesting… except we weren’t discussing how MF reduces your performance, but how much it matters. None of that got you to “socially evil and undesirable stat”, did it? That would be a Red Herring, if I’m not mistaken.

stof.9341:

The issue is that MF users are selfish to impose such change for their sole benefit. No matter how small the change is, it remains that they made a selfish decision against their party members in a game that should be cooperative.

Just average every player MF in a party ANet and everything will be fine.

Sure, bringing MF instead of a more effective stat is “selfish”. So is choosing to bring an underleveled, undergeared alt instead of my decked out main, or an underperforming class instead of my guard. Come to think of it, it’s pretty selfish to be playing this game instead of going out and doing community service in my free time. Replace “MF” with any of the above in the previous 2 posts and it still applies.

Clearly, the difference matters more than you let on.

I understand your stance completely — I just happen to see where the facts end and the opinion begins, something that the 10+ people that keep trotting this argument out seem to be unable to grasp.
--—
In all honesty, I wouldn’t mind sharing the stat across the group as long as the essence of why I enjoy the stat isn’t compromised: I find the higher risk for higher reward mechanic to be entertaining. That being said, it would take quite a bit of effort to make that sort of change without buffing the effect of MF on our drops, which could possibly take the stat from marginal to a must-have. Also, I’m willing to bet that a change such as that would only please a marginal portion of the marginal group that seems to have a crusade against MF… which swings me back to wondering why you’re complaining so hard about something so insignificant.

Quote from http://www.relicsoforr.com/?p=2299#more-2299

A Shotgun Interview with ArenaNet

Q: What role do you at Arena Net feel Magic Find as a stat plays in the game? Could we see a rework of Magic Find to better fit the teamwork oriented design of dungeons?

A: Matt Wuerffel: The role of Magic Find is something that we’ve been discussing quite a bit. While we haven’t decided on a specific direction yet, we can say that it’s clear that the current implementation has some negative social impacts, and we definitely want to address that. Guild Wars 2 is a social game, and we want to foster positive player interactions, so it’s definitely an issue that we’re looking at very carefully.

I am not saying that MF stat wearer are not contributing to the team, I am saying they are contributing less in NORMAL circumstance.

There is no argument that MF as a stat brings nothing, NOTHING to the group.

Just use the average MF in a party for each player and that’s all. Simple and effective.

Xavori.3768: Actually no, rampagers in not better than rabids, since the dps for a condition class will be the same due to a much higher condi stat instead of some power, most attacks that apply condi damage have a very low damage value and they scale badly with power.

Not only that, but rabid has a much higher base condi damage than rampagers since its the primary stat, which isnt the case for rampagers. Sure, rampagers is better for someone that has condi as their secondary damage, but not for a true condi specced character. What matters mostly for condi classes is the ability to stack extra condi on crits. The survivability and higher condi damage from rabid outshines the little extra power you get from rampagers.

You keep bringing up how skilled you are, still your lack of knowledge about many professions tell me otherwise. There is a big reason most condi engis, necros, mesmers etc pick rabid over rampagers. The earlier comment about guardians and AH was the point where most of your credibility went down the drain for me.

For a sword warrior rampagers might be good, I dont know, I dont play one, but its a bad set for most other professions. It’s primary stat is precision and secondary is power/condi. You should really look up how poorly some of those, well most of those condi inflicting skills scale with power.

An example. My mesmer is a full burst build, 3500attack, 52% crit chance and 108% crit damage. His staff#1 skills, which inflicts conditions doesnt even break 1k on crits. Same goes with most every other condition inflicting skill in the game.

MF is bad in general, Power is a waste for conditions specs.

stof.9341:

Just use the average MF in a party for each player and that’s all. Simple and effective.

That would be too obvious and simple. If Anet wanted to fix problems rather than test an awesome social experiment, they would have done so by now.

How about MF gear boosts your party members’ chance to find rare items but not your own.

Now we can keep that awesome sociopathic “DO THIS OR KITTENS”, except in reverse!

I sure love prisoner’s dilemma.

Yeni.3507:

Quote from http://www.relicsoforr.com/?p=2299#more-2299

A Shotgun Interview with ArenaNet

Q: What role do you at Arena Net feel Magic Find as a stat plays in the game? Could we see a rework of Magic Find to better fit the teamwork oriented design of dungeons?

A: Matt Wuerffel: The role of Magic Find is something that we’ve been discussing quite a bit. While we haven’t decided on a specific direction yet, we can say that it’s clear that the current implementation has some negative social impacts, and we definitely want to address that. Guild Wars 2 is a social game, and we want to foster positive player interactions, so it’s definitely an issue that we’re looking at very carefully.

---

I am not saying that MF stat wearer are not contributing to the team, I am saying they are contributing less in NORMAL circumstance.

There is no argument that MF as a stat brings nothing, NOTHING to the group.

But if the party members don’t care, it doesn’t matter. So it’s a matter of attitude. The group can very well finish the dungeon/fractal/whatever in time-having a MF member or two-or indeed, all five-won’t determine whether there’ll be a party wipe. I don’t assume I am a “better player” than the MF gear player, just because I am using something else (I do not use MF gear.)

What would be nicer to everybody is that MF players would be able to group themselves together, or at the very least with players that don’t care. Magic Find in itself is not either inherently “selfish” or bad for the game-it is people that make a problem out of it. Given how many feel about this issue, I think it’s as simple as leaving the whole thing untouched, and letting people agree/disagree with who will be in the group.

The bad thing about allowing people to do gear checks is, as usual, elitism. The good thing is that MF people could group together, so nobody feels like someone is “riding” the player with the “better” gear (I find it unreasonable to ascertain that because someone is using MF, that he/she is “getting carried” by the non-MF gear-users in the group, though.) Gear checks can do more harm than good to the community, IMHO.

The MF divided among party members has its own problems as well, which others has discussed before.

In short, the best solution is to leave things as-is, and play with like-minded people, rather than finding fault with everyone that doesn’t play the way you play-since you won’t be playing with them, the problem disappears.

Turial.1293:

So it is fair to make people get less loot because they should be carrying you through the dungeon faster? You assume that a full zerk zerg dungeon is the way to go? The whole point of gw2 is that there is no meta, none of this elitist crap and I have to say they are on the right track, they nearly have it. As far as you are concerned unless the player is in zerk he is not helping you… sounds a bit selfish to me.

No one is saying that zerk is better than everything and all other armors can go kitten themselves.
Every other stat combination is a sidegrade, meaning they do different things, which are not comparable as a whole to each other, because they can be better or worse depending on the situation. However, Explorer’s is, no matter how you look at it, worse in combat than Berserker’s, which makes it an inarguable downgrade.
That also applies to Traveler’s compared to Rampager’s or Carrion.

Silentsins.3726:

Interesting… except we weren’t discussing how MF reduces your performance, but how much it matters. None of that got you to “socially evil and undesirable stat”, did it? That would be a Red Herring, if I’m not mistaken.

This is the problem here. How much it matters is very subjective, so most mf proponents will think it reduced performance doesn’t matter much, while people against it think reduced performance is a significant issue. So that’s all this arguement really is “does it matter to you?”, seeing as any facts are just dismissed as it doesn’t matter…

That’s probably how he got to the “socially evil and undesirable stat” thing too, so it’s not unrelated, he’s just saying it matters to him.

As for the unskilled/undergeared, it’s mostly because they don’t choose to be be that way and would gladly be skilled and well geared if they had the option, whereas mf users make the choice to nerf their performance.
And honestly, running full blues/whites can get hate/disapproval/noob status from a fair amount of people as well. (Although not necessarily anti-mf people.)

Corvi.3278:

3. Pretend that food and potions does not exist? What if the avatar is wearing MF gear with those uber upgrades/buffs?

I think most people are quite comfortable with the opposite of this; wear non-MF gear and get MF from the food.

Seems reasonable, seeing as the food is largely optional.

The main problem here is that everyone is talking in terms of hypotheticals; yes, there are probably many skilled players who can perform above-average despite being at a statistical disadvantage to characters without magic find. Likewise, a player with zero skill running magic find gear is missing out on stats that he or she desperately needs to scrape by.

These two examples are only the ends of a spectrum though; the average player is going to be of average skill level, based on the definition of average. These players are not the top-tier players who can use magic find, nor are they the skill-barren players who can’t help but die every pull. These players WILL be performing sub-optimally because of their gear, but at the same time, the party will be barely inconvenienced.

There is a lot of grey area here because, given the lack of absolute scenarios on one side or the other of the “spectrum” of skill, it is hard to determine when a player isn’t performing optimally because of his or her magic find gear. If a run takes thirty extra seconds because someone either isn’t doing the most DPS possible or because someone got downed because of low health, is that too much of an extra burden to the party? What if it’s five extra minutes? What about twenty?

Ultimately, people are going to answer this question differently. Some would argue that no delay caused by magic find gear is ever acceptable solely based on the principle that everyone should contribute. Likewise, some people would accept a fair amount of leeway because they hold the opinion that every player deserves to play in his or her own way.

Because of what I have just listed above, I believe that magic find should be removed from gear and maybe even from food and the game itself completely. I would suggest two options:
1) Remove magic find completely and simply increase drop rates to compensate. I don’t know if Arenanet is likely to choose this because of how greatly it would impact the economy.
2) Remove magic find from equipment (and possibly consumables) and make it something that one’s character accrues permanently over time, maybe by discovering lucky or enchanted artifacts or performing special quests or overcoming significant challenges. I like this idea a lot because it wouldn’t have a huge effect on the economy, it would provide a long-term goal for players to work for, and if implemented correctly it could give players a reward for doing something difficult.

Magic find feels neccessary because if you’re farming, you want the most out of it the fatest way, so you have to get MF.
I really despise MF because it means I have to run around and farm with some crappy ugly looking gear, which to me is boring.

What they could do is: remove MF from gear and keep the magic find from guild perks and food buffs etc…

why? because they love you more!

Hellkaiser.6025:

Corvi.3278:

jobah.7241:

This thread is in itself a proof that MF gear is a bad thing: It is splitting people

And even worse, it goes against A-nets design goal: that a game should be played to have fun, not be played “to prepare to have fun”.

For a lot of people, MF gear creates an eternal farming circle of preparing for something. Because why would you wear the “hard earned” gear (for your build) that was the very goal of your farming when you can farm much more wearing MF?

Result: Farming, i.e. “preparing to have fun”, becomes a goal in itself.
Bad design.

What is good gameplay?
1. Ban people lower than level 80 in dungeons that by design allows lower levels? Because they slow the group?
2. Ban people with MF gear (not considering higher level armor such as rare or exotics) but allow normal gear? Or since normal gear is bad enough accept only those with yellows and oranges?
3. Pretend that food and potions does not exist? What if the avatar is wearing MF gear with those uber upgrades/buffs?
4. Have good “non-evil” gear but slacking in gameplay? I’ve seen people do lazy runs not using all skills and that is a greater factor than MF. Especially for tough bosses I see only auto-attack when that happens I remind the group in chat.

Solution: Create a guild that caters to the absolute rule of you own self-righteous standard of gear usage and avoid that kind of preaching/debate in map chat or local chat.

Nearly all exaggerated straw man arguments, no one is calling for anyone or anything to be “banned” if it doesn’t exist then drop rates increase across the board, that’s the only way we walk away from the MF debate happy.

Really? Strawman even after pointing out cherry picking, hasty generalization, and making judgement without considering prior probabilities?

Well you only have to read back to see how people will “rudely remove” MF people in a party. And after that post where some will quit just because partymates are on MF food.

Nibiru.1423:

Reason I hate MF is people dont know when to use it, and when not. Just did lvl 30 daily and we wiped on valcano end boss (mainly because guard didnt know what a shield was) but after several attempts I look at the team and 3 of the 4 pugs still have MF nurishment. At that point i gave up!.

Really? Why disregard other factors (gameplay, food, potions, guild buffs, armor types, etc…) into the final equation? :p Seriously, formal argumentation accusation and sarcasm in an Internet game forum? Hellkaiser.6025 just relax dude.

SOLUTION: Create a guild/fellowship that caters to your own very strict armor requirements. Do that but don’t preach, bully nor force people in public game chat.

Also be aware of dungeon mechanics as even with “non-evil armor” there are countless of party wipes.

@SneakyErvin. You’re wrong. You obviously have no idea how damage works. I’m bored. I’ll explain.

Direct damage = (weapon * power * skill ) / target armor

Condition damage varies by condition
Poison = 4 + Level + .1*cond damage
Bleeding = 2.5 + Level + .05*cond damage
Burning = 8 + Level + .25*cond damage
Confusion = 10 + Level + .15*cond damage

Notice those tiny little multipliers? That’s what makes raising cond damage an iffy choice. It takes a lot more cond damage to get more damage than it does power.

For example:
Poison with 0 cond damage = 84 per tick, 1 tick per second (ie. 84 dps)
Posion with 1467 cond damage = 233per tick

1467 cond damage is 30 points into cond damage, the rabid jewel, and 6 undead runes in the Mists.

Poison with 1175 cond damage = 202 per tick.

1175 cond damge is Ravager and 6 undead runes (even tho 6th isn’t as useful).

So giving up 292 points of condition costs you a whopping 31 DPS for poison.

Bleeding stacks are at 43 with 0 condition. At 1467 they are at 117. At 1175 they are 101. That’s a whopping 16 DPS per stack you’ve lost with that horribad sucks so much ravager instead of rabid (and again, I stuck with undead runes while testing). Even if you build for lots of fast stacks of bleeding, you can’t push it as much as…

Thief autoattack 2&3 with nothing but 916 base power. ~290 per hit
Thief autoattack 2&3 with 1016 power. ~310 per hit … measely 100 points and we’ve already gone up more per hit than ~300 points of condition damage did for bleeds, and oh ya, we’re hitting faster than once per second
Thief autoattack 2&3 at 1116 power. ~345 per hit. Amazing how not having that tiny fractional coefficient makes power ever so much better than condition damage.
Thief autoattack 2&3 at 1216 power ~410 per hit. For the same 300 point difference between rampager and rabid in cond damage, you’ve picked up 110 points per hit on weapon strikes that are faster than condition proc’s.

Oh, and thief autoattack is actually one of the weaker skills. If you use bigger hitting skills, the straight multiplier of power gets that much more noticeable. I just didn’t feel like jumping between toons to get easy access to all the damage types.

So, power is better than condition damage. Rampager has power. Rabid has none. And I’m the one that was wrong about which was better for DPS?

Now, Rabid does have value. As you pointed out, it has a nice bit of synergy with undead runes, so if you’re say, building a necro who has built in high health making toughness the go to best choice for adding some extra survivability, then rabid gets you that toughness and lets you take advantage of some of the necros other tricks like a +400 toughness when channeling so stack conditions and then hit a long channel to make them all start ticking higher, or building a juggernaut engineer that skews a bit more towards tank than damage, etc.

Condition damage even without the runes also has value, espec versus bosses where you can get a lot of stacks of bleeding going (confusion sadly, not so good as bosses attack slow…but confusion rocks versus other players, espec bursty thieves who hit a whole bunch of skills as fast as they can). Unlike power, condition damage doesn’t care about armor. Bosses tend to have lots of that. As soon as you factor that in, condition damage’s lower DPS becomes a good choice versus high health (so you can get lots of stacks) high armor (that you’ll ignore) boss mobs.

In short, people who are ignorant of themselves like to blame numbers over skill, a few seconds over a few minute.
As a wise man once said,

It’s much easier to blame something you don’t understand than to excel in it – Lafiele

I dont hate people with MF geared player (especially good player).

I hate them when they down pretty often but not deal any significant damage. (which just a burden to my group.).

Star Ace.5207:

The MF divided among party members has its own problems as well, which others has discussed before.

What, who, where?

I have yet to see anyone commenting on that suggestion except you. It’s not even that I disagree with the problems, I haven’t seen anyone mention them.

Aluano.1826:

Magic find feels neccessary because if you’re farming, you want the most out of it the fatest way, so you have to get MF.

And then they nerf the drops.
Honestly, the approach Anet has to farming is just too inconsistent. On one side they support MF eq, going as far as putting 2 different MF builds among the ascended (while lot of other useful builds were omitted). On the other, anytime you start actually getting nice drops, they nerf it to the ground within hours.

Lafiel.9372:

In short, people who are ignorant of themselves like to blame numbers over skill, a few seconds over a few minute.
As a wise man once said,

It’s much easier to blame something you don’t understand than to excel in it – Lafiele

…i don’t think there is any reason to be proud of excelling in selfishness, is it?

having skipped pages 2-9 since everything here is so repetitive, i cant understand one thing:

arguements AGAINST Mf users: they are selfish, they chose to get more drops instead of helping the team, they sacrifice combat-important stats.

How comes you dont see defensive stats, Thoughness/Vit as NOT selfish? toughness and vit does not help your team a single bit, it only helps YOU surviving because you cant dodge/move right, you can survive anything in full glass cannon in pve, so there is absolutely no reason to pick tough/vit unless you fail at movement/dodging and chose the easier way to pick defensive gear. Even if a full glasscannon maybe has to get rezzed once or twice during a bossfight, he still provided much more dps to the group than one with defstats, and those defstats will probably only let you survive 1 or 2 more of the really deadly hits, if at all.

if players can SOLO arah explorable with a FULL GLASSCANNON spec and gear and in melee, dont. ever. tell me that toughness/vitality “helps” the group by staying alive,

to those who say they hate people in the group who regularly get downed and deal low damage, you basically say you want to run dungeons with only full exotic equipped people, since fresh 80’s with green/rare gear deal less damage and die more often than one with exotic mf gear (full rare glasscannon would deal more damage than exotic mf, but noone gets full rare gear anyway).

I “hate” magic find because it is a waste of attributepoints that contribute to your performance, it is simple as that and I don’t know why this thread has 10 pages filled with walls of text.

Rocklin.4106:

to those who say they hate people in the group who regularly get downed and deal low damage, you basically say you want to run dungeons with only full exotic equipped people

That’s my preference, yes.

Rocklin.4106:

having skipped pages 2-9 since everything here is so repetitive, i cant understand one thing:

arguements AGAINST Mf users: they are selfish, they chose to get more drops instead of helping the team, they sacrifice combat-important stats.

How comes you dont see defensive stats, Thoughness/Vit as NOT selfish? toughness and vit does not help your team a single bit, it only helps YOU surviving because you cant dodge/move right, you can survive anything in full glass cannon in pve, so there is absolutely no reason to pick tough/vit unless you fail at movement/dodging and chose the easier way to pick defensive gear. Even if a full glasscannon maybe has to get rezzed once or twice during a bossfight, he still provided much more dps to the group than one with defstats, and those defstats will probably only let you survive 1 or 2 more of the really deadly hits, if at all.

if players can SOLO arah explorable with a FULL GLASSCANNON spec and gear and in melee, dont. ever. tell me that toughness/vitality “helps” the group by staying alive,

to those who say they hate people in the group who regularly get downed and deal low damage, you basically say you want to run dungeons with only full exotic equipped people, since fresh 80’s with green/rare gear deal less damage and die more often than one with exotic mf gear (full rare glasscannon would deal more damage than exotic mf, but noone gets full rare gear anyway).

Basically it’s a matter of the answer to that question : Why don’t you use a more offensive build to make things faster ?

If the answer is “Sorry but I need my Vitality and Toughness to avoid getting downed too often which can easily lead to a loss of time and maybe even a full party wipe” then why not? The player isn’t as good as he could but we cannot ask too much.

Then, if the answer is “Sorry but I want to get more loots, even if the run goes slower, the loot bonus from MF overrides this and I end up with a net benefit”, then get the hell out of my groups because this answer is pure selfishness.

stof.9341:

Star Ace.5207:

The MF divided among party members has its own problems as well, which others has discussed before.

What, who, where?

I have yet to see anyone commenting on that suggestion except you. It’s not even that I disagree with the problems, I haven’t seen anyone mention them.

I have a few times.

I play easy content with magic find in the easy stuff because I don’t need stats to survive, and hence, am using gear that allows my higher skill to receive higher reward. I don’t want to see my rewards reduced because I’m carrying a bunch of people who either can’t, or won’t, run with magic find.

And yes, this means I would happily run AC, CM, fractals level 10-16 or so, in a party of people all wearing exotic MF gear. I already run in pug’s all the time consisting of inexperience peopled, people in non-exotic gear, people not built for raw dps, etc., so it’s not like I expect everyone to be built precisely the way they would need to be to minimize how long an AC run or whatever could take. More than that, even if they were, we’re only going to save a minute or two of real time. Trying for perfect would be way too much hassle for such a tiny return.

If you want to replace MF gear with something else, make sure that something else still provides higher rewards for higher skill and/or contribution. For example, a system that provided a reward buff on dungeon completion to the people who provided above average DPS, boons, healing, etc. For example, if you do 10% more DPS than the party average, you get 10% more gold and tokens when the dungeon is completed. By making sure to include more than just DPS, you can be sure that most good players will find a niche where they’ll get their reward buffs in pretty much every group they run with.

Xavori.3768:

For example, a system that provided a reward buff on dungeon completion to the people who provided above average DPS, boons, healing, etc.

I found a mechanic like this really attractive in a F2P MMO I’ve been playing lately. To give a rough analogy using a “contribution” metric, first would receive two exotics, second would receive one exotic, third would receive one rare, fourth and lower start pushing into current rewards (probably using greens as a minimum reward).

It gives you something to aim for when you’re wearing your try-hard hat, and there are otherwise sufficient static rewards that you’ll still make progress when you approach it more lackadaisically (making it easier for the try-hards to achieve their goal at the same time, generally improving PUG morale).

Xavori.3768:

stof.9341:

Star Ace.5207:

The MF divided among party members has its own problems as well, which others has discussed before.

What, who, where?

I have yet to see anyone commenting on that suggestion except you. It’s not even that I disagree with the problems, I haven’t seen anyone mention them.

I have a few times.

I play easy content with magic find in the easy stuff because I don’t need stats to survive, and hence, am using gear that allows my higher skill to receive higher reward. I don’t want to see my rewards reduced because I’m carrying a bunch of people who either can’t, or won’t, run with magic find.

And yes, this means I would happily run AC, CM, fractals level 10-16 or so, in a party of people all wearing exotic MF gear. I already run in pug’s all the time consisting of inexperience peopled, people in non-exotic gear, people not built for raw dps, etc., so it’s not like I expect everyone to be built precisely the way they would need to be to minimize how long an AC run or whatever could take. More than that, even if they were, we’re only going to save a minute or two of real time. Trying for perfect would be way too much hassle for such a tiny return.

If you want to replace MF gear with something else, make sure that something else still provides higher rewards for higher skill and/or contribution. For example, a system that provided a reward buff on dungeon completion to the people who provided above average DPS, boons, healing, etc. For example, if you do 10% more DPS than the party average, you get 10% more gold and tokens when the dungeon is completed. By making sure to include more than just DPS, you can be sure that most good players will find a niche where they’ll get their reward buffs in pretty much every group they run with.

Very nice suggestion.

But I hope it is not exotics at once as it would flood the market with supply. But the leading contributor will “get more” chances to better loot.

@Xavori.3768: All skills are effected by coefficients, not just condi damage.

“Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)”

“Tooltip damage = (average weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (level-based Armor value)”

You also keep ignoring the stacks of bleeds aswell. My necro with 1600 condi damage deals with an avarage stack of 12 bleeds and a poison 1720 dps. Thats what alot of other DD classes crit for with their #1 skill if they are in crit damage gear. Without it, they get crit somewhere around 1000-1200. Still depends on skill coefficients. And a sidenote, 12 stacks is just common, its not hard to get higher than that, it depends crit, sigils and traits. Currently its not rare to come to 20 stacks alone.

Would be nice with a list of power coefficients for condition stacking skills.

In the end, its not worth giving up toughness for a minor increase in power when you can get the same damage with pure condi damage.

And even in the mists with the easy to achieve 12 stacks, the rabid gear comes to 1404dps (1467 condi) vs your 1212dps (1175 condi). Thats a difference of 192dps (223 if you count poison), where your 300 power only gives you 110dps extra with direct attacks, and that is for a thief ontop of that, with a fairly high power scaling. I need to reduce my stacks to 5 or 6 if my poison is also running its course in order to get down to that damage increase, take not of the word down. Now compare rabid vs rampagers for a scepter or staff necro and the direct damage coefficient will be even lower and condi will benefit much more.

Also all the direct damage is mitigated by Armor, which reduces the damage more. And as your example seems to be a thief, they wont have any hard hitting skills really since they lack the crit damage with a condition build and each time you use another skill your initiative will go down and result in death blossom not getting used, resulting in no bleed ticks, rendering your condi spec pointless.

Well generally it is a dum stat, and this is coming from someone who HAS MF. Why not give everyone an equal chance instead of making us waste around 7-8G to buy the required armor + runes for it.

stof.9341:

rtommaso.3120:

Vehemently defending? Im only stating it is ridiculous to be against mf. There is a crusade against mf in a game where challenge is near zero because “you sacrifice some stats”. Just let people use whatever they want. That is what I am vehemently defending.

The issue is that MF users are selfish to impose such change for their sole benefit. No matter how small the change is, it remains that they made a selfish decision against their party members in a game that should be cooperative.

Just average every player MF in a party ANet and everything will be fine.

That solution won’t work

1) People using MF will complain that they die more because glass cannon gear, therefore they are paying more in repair to give benefits to the party.
2) You could exploit this by having a lvl 1 toon party with a lvl 80 in full MF
3) People in a party who don’t want MF will be upset at the person using MF. They will have a way to know now, which is pretty much a ghetto gear-check/inspect

The issue I have is that anti-MFers complain that MF users are being selfish, but demand that they not use MF. You are dictating the way somebody else plays for YOUR personal benefit (3minutes less in a dungeon run). That a great example of selfish and hypocrisy rolled into one.

@SneakyErvin,

By the numbers:
1)Bleed stacks. How long did it take you to stack enough bleeds to match DPS with a power-buffed direct damage attack? How much of your build do you have to focus on keeping those stacks around. Ya. Thought so.

2)Nowhere in my post did I mention crits. Crits is a whole ’nother discussion. But the cliffnotes version is that power is significantly better than precision. I suspect this is why so many traits and sigils are designed as on-crit. It serves to buff precision putting it back on par with power.

3)Your testing doesn’t isolate variables, and as I mentioned, I intentionally picked a bad skill for power scaling. Go run my tests again using a warrior greatsword and you’ll understand why it is nobody thinks condition damage when it comes to min/max DPS.

4) I mentioned the high health-high armor boss case specifically because it’s one of the few places where condition damage becomes really valuable. However, even there, it’s still not as valuable as power. So for maximizing your DPS versus said bosses, you want a lot of power and a lot of condition damage, and you want skills that let you stack conditions fast.

5) I picked thief as my example because it gave me ready access to a mediocre power skill, a poison skill, and bleed skill. Thieves also allow you to isolate on damage types. You can put your trait points into one area of damage and see how much each point affects things.

Just FYI, necro is a really bad choice for trying to test any DPS related stat because they simply can’t be built pure effectively. They have mixed traits, badly mixed weapon skills with lower damage multipliers since they were intended to have conditions, etc. What I mean is that the direct damage portion of their attacks have all been lowered with the assumption it will be made up for in condition damage. At least that’s the theory.

The reality is that it makes building effective DPS necros impossible since all the gear they’d need to maximize simply doesn’t exist. You really would want max power and then have a lot of condition damage and precision, and you can’t. Rampager and rabid are both precision, not power, heavy. The reason Rampager’s is better than Knight’s is because 3 DPS stats are better than 2, even if the balance isn’t optimal between them.

And again, all that said, there are cases where Rabid and Rampagers really are very good choices, but they’ll never be Berserker’s.

1.) It takes about 2 seconds to apply 10+ bleed stats on any of the bleed based classes. The stacks come natural as part of dealing damage, you dont need to focus nearly as much on it as having to stay in range for big hits, even thief condi application is dirt easy and stacks fast. They have the drawback of no bleed on crit trait. Engi is the only class with a drawback when it comes to condi, since their duration is short, necro isnt. And if you learn anything about DoTs and scaling, the longer their duration is the more beneficial is the condi coeff.

And claiming necro damage is bad or ineffective just shows that you have never played one, or atleast not properly. Their damage is realy easy to deal and it comes with alot of other side things at the same time, like cripples, chills and weakness. Necro is not a special case when it comes to poorly scaling DoT inflicters, that covers every class. Either they scale porly on power, or they have a key feature that requires something fromt he player, like positionals.

2). Crits does the same thing, it ups the damage, both for DD and condi classes, given they pick the right traits (this goes for both cases). And crit was taken into account with the gear, but it wouldnt make much of a difference in either of the examples. Well for a thief it would to a minor extent, since they have no bleed on crit traits.

3). Why on earth do you bring up warrior GS when talking condi damage? Are you out of your mind? The weapon has zero condition damage skills. You’ve just lost all proper arguments and go talk about War GS when discussing condi… oh gods, kitten You cant test something by comparing like that, you need to compare rabid vs rampagers on actual condi inflicting skills and weapons. You are starting to make less and less sense for each post.

4.) No you dont want power along with condi, unless the weapon scales very well with power. Otherwise you are better off with Rabid, which gives the highest possible condi through stats and toughness+rune aswell as a high crit chance.

5.) It’s not a poor skill, it probably has a higher scale than most other auto attack skills, it still didnt outdamage a simple easy to stack 12 stack bleed, didnt outdamage even a 10, 8 or 7 stack bleed. Same will be the case for any other class, since most other classes have much lower power scaling ont heir condi skills.

For pure condition based specs rabid will always be better than anything else, since it adds the most damage, as proven by my examples, taken straight from your own examples and the wiki scaling for DoTs.

Berserkers is the worst choice for any DoT spec, since it gives you 0 condi damage.

For a self proclaimed skilled player, you lack very much of the basic knowledge.

Ethics.4519:

That solution won’t work

1) People using MF will complain that they die more because glass cannon gear, therefore they are paying more in repair to give benefits to the party.
2) You could exploit this by having a lvl 1 toon party with a lvl 80 in full MF
3) People in a party who don’t want MF will be upset at the person using MF. They will have a way to know now, which is pretty much a ghetto gear-check/inspect

The issue I have is that anti-MFers complain that MF users are being selfish, but demand that they not use MF. You are dictating the way somebody else plays for YOUR personal benefit (3minutes less in a dungeon run). That a great example of selfish and hypocrisy rolled into one.

1) Well on the other hand, if that MF guy wants the full reward, he can try soloing the content instead. Or get the rest of the group to gear in MF too. Besides this behavior is EXACTLY the problem that needs fixing in the first place.

2) Exploit how much? By getting a group of 4 level 1s to get 20% more blue level 1 items to drop? It’s not exploitable at all.

3) Some people in a party will always be upset that someone isn’t using the right gear. At the minimum the MF stat will apply equal benefits to the whole party and not only to the guy using it. As was said before, even survivability stats improve the whole party survivability in a way. MF is the only stat currently that ONLY benefits the user itself no matter how you look at it.

Let me put it in a simple way that maybe everyone can understand. A bad player will always be a bad player, MF or not. A skilled player will always be a skilled player whether they are wearing MF or not. Most power base builds work well with MF armor/noble rune. Also, our secret “hot blooded” elite, allows us to do more damage in more risky environments yet come out unscathed. It’s all about morale.

Lafiel.9372:

Let me put it in a simple way that maybe everyone can understand. A bad player will always be a bad player, MF or not. A skilled player will always be a skilled player whether they are wearing MF or not. Most power base builds work well with MF armor/noble rune. Also, our secret “hot blooded” elite, allows us to do more damage in more risky environments yet come out unscathed. It’s all about morale.

And let me put it to you another way:
A Berserker’s user will do more damage than if they were using Explorer’s, whether they’re skilled or not.
And unlike every other stat combination, it doesn’t give anything valuable in combat in return for the reduced damage, and what it does give doesn’t even give a bonus to the group, unlike the damage it replaces.

@SneakyErvin

1) If it takes 2 seconds to get your bleed stacks, that’s an extra 2 seconds you have to account for when calculating DPS. Those two seconds don’t apply to direct damage. Math is fun.

2) Engineers can make fantastic cond damage toons. Just cuz you can’t figure it out doesn’t mean it’s not there.

3) Cond duration only matters in long fights. I’m pretty sure I’ve mentioned the whole “high health” thing a time or two already tho. Glad you finally agree with me on that. For the majority of the fighting you’ll do tho, it doesn’t matter at all as the stuff dies long before your conditions finish proc’ing.

4) Crits don’t do anything for cond damage. They also don’t care what your cond damage stat is at. Crits do care a great deal what your power is at as they multiply the base damage that is set by power. So for crits, precision sets how often you’ll get extra damage, power and critical damage decide just how much that extra damage will be. So…power is still the most important DPS stat.

5) A pure DPS necro has lower max DPS than a pure DPS anything else. I wish you the best of luck in your belief that that isn’t true. Maybe someday when minion AI includes actually attacking every fight, or weapon skills get rebalanced to work on their own, or more stat combinations get added to gear, that’ll change. But right now, you cannot build a DPS necro that does as much damage as even a DPS engineer (another class that suffers in this area)

p.s. I’ve played every class to 80, and most more than one 80. I have a bunker marks/wells necro who is a lot of fun to play, and she works well in groups because practically all her attacks set up combos for my teammates. I’ve tried a whole host of builds on her (I really, really want to go minions), but the one she’s running seems to work the best, espec in groups where her mediocre damage is offset by her ability to tank and help her teammates.

6) I brought up greatsword warrior to point out just how very wrong you are about cond damage being anywhere near as important as power. A high power greatsword warrior blows away any cond damage build in terms of DPS. They don’t have to wait 2 seconds for bleeds to stack. They don’t have to hope all the cond removal skills of their target are on cooldown. They just do a lot of damage.

7) Rabid is not as good as Rampager for total DPS. Rampager does so much better on the direct damage side that it more than makes up for the very small loss of condition damage. It takes a lot of points of condition damage to see meaningful changes in the DPS. Conversely, small changes in power make immediate meaningful boosts to DPS. Rampager’s has power. Rabid doesn’t. Rabid has nowhere near enough extra condition damage to make up for that lack of power.

8) Berserker’s is the best DPS armor, and I never said anything about it being the best condition damage armor.

You really do have trouble following along, don’t you. Either that, or you know your argument has gone poorly and you’re desperately attempting to build strawmen to cover the fact that your original claim, that rabid’s is better than rampager’s, was proven incorrect. That your follow up claim that condition damage, and hence the condition damage stat, is better than power and direct damage was proven incorrect. That pretty much every claim you’ve made about game mechanics has been proven incorrect.

By the way, I’m not trying to insult you. I had a bunch of misconceptions about how things worked until I either asked questions, had other people show me, or tested myself. I genuinely am hoping to explain how mechanics work so you’ll get better. I think you’ll have more fun if you understand how the game really works. I also don’t think you need to min/max to have fun, but if you at least understand what’s going on, you won’t end up as frustrated as to why every thief or warrior you meet seems to do more damage than your necro.

I’ve enjoyed MF so far. It’s gotten me decent items. I don’t keep count but if I have to I’d say I average a 2-4 rares a day, plenty of masterworks and fines and today in less than 30min also got 2 lodestones (score).

But no, I wouldn’t use this set in a dungeon. It’s purely a farming set for me.

Xavori.3768: You are making less and less sense for each post. You just dont see the difference in condi damage and DD. You probably love to see big numbers, but condi deals the same kinda of big numbers, only in a different way.

Your GS example (which you still hold onto) is a prime one of how you cant compare things properly. Time and time again I’ve stated clearly for you that Rabid gear is the best gear for a condition class, for a thief though it can be argued, but you would probably be better of with carrion there even, since the thief barely has any on crit procs that apply conditions. Carrion would max your condi and power as far as you could, while giving some wee bit extra surviviability.

Your comparisons are like comparing cucumbers to pineapples.

Crit does alot for condition specs, it helps you stacks more conditions faster if you have the traits that benefit from it, which is included in most condi builds. Extra bleeds, burns etc on crit.

You also fail to take things into acount, like when the stacks are up and rolling after a few seconds, you still need to stay within range to get benefit from your power (on a thief as the example was). While on a necro after the stacks are up, the one with more condi gear will do more dps (see numbers in previous post), and thats at a low stack of 6, which is up just as fast as yours.

On a thief it becomes even more or a difference, because when you decide to take time with your auto attack, the other guy builds his bleeds, your primary damage in the example. That way you sit there with no bleeds on the target, since you cant use death blossom and #1 at the same time. You example is flawed, your example should compare death blossom to death blossom, otherwise all you do is your auto attack damage and nothing else, while the other guy in rabid stacks his bleeds, making you fall behind more and more.

I say it again, clear as it can be.

Rabid gear is the currently optimal set for a condition based spec. It gives you top condi stat and as high crit as you possibly can get while keeping max condi damage.

Berserkers is the optimal set for DD specs for pure damage.

Rabid gear is worthless on DD sepcs.

Berserkers is worthless on condi specs.

Every other set is in between for their respective damage build type.

MF gear brings nothing to the table.

edit: Also to help you understand why your GS example is off the mark. GS is based around power, crit and crit damage, it has no benefit from condition damage. So you cant really use it to test out which condition gear is best, of course in that case whatever gear has power on it would pull ahead.

stof.9341:

3) Some people in a party will always be upset that someone isn’t using the right gear.

Haha, thank you for proving one of my points.

I’ve said it in the D3 forums, and I’ll repeat it here, MF has no place on armor. The point of armor is to crunch out your build, and efficiently design your character to maximize your potential, which is fun. Then comes MF, a stat that rewards you by replacing something. It pretty much doesn’t add anything in any form to improve the playstyle of your character, it in fact detracts from your prowess but adds a chance to be rewarded after combat. Why a stat like this is on your armor is beyond me.

If a designer was smart, he’d find a way to include MF in smarter shapes and forms. I mean, even the blundering D3 team saw it that it doesn’t work, and those guys are idiots, they pretty much screwed around with that game beyond belief. And I think ANet is far more capable than Blizzard on a good day, so why can’t they work around it.

Consumables and boosts are good examples of where MF fits perfectly, it works as a buff.

Maybe add a dedicated inventory slot for an item that grants MF and/or GF and/or +XP. That way you can play around with those to your hearts content without it clashing with character building stats.

What about a way of implementing the same sort of buff that some sigils give stacks with kills, but instead it adds MF. It could be a consumable, or even fit in the aforementioned new inventory slots.

Or perhaps it can purely be an item you keep in your inventory, which then grants you MF, at the cost of space.

Why not introduce some form of shrines around the world, sort of like skill challenges? These can give you an MF/XP/GF bonus that lasts for a time, and a few can even be placed in certain spots inside dungeons.

These are small ideas from a mere player, so I’m certain an actual designer can be far more innovative than me. All I know is, MF doesn’t belong on items, and with drops being as harsh as they are, a person sort of starts to feel that it might be mandatory.

some T/V armor becomes more usefull now that we cant wp zerg in dungeons..
well.. not all people are good at playing this game, and it helps em to survive on the count that you use them in parts.
people using MF gear are just selfish.. regardless of skill .etc.
its not the idea that he/she is unskilled enough to do well in MF gear, but the unwillingness to provide more in a group content such as dungeons are just selfish.!

@SneakyErvin

Okay, simple as can be.

Rabid is not as good as Rampagers for DPS. Neither is as good as Berserker’s. AND THAT INCLUDES ‘CONDITION’ CLASSES.

Since I know you won’t believe me, I grabbed my necro and took her to the mists. I cleared her stats, stripped her armor, and used nothing but scepter which, as I pointed out, is a hybrid weapon. Every attack includes both direct and condition damage.

In short, I isolated just the Rampager versus Rabid part.

With your precious Rabid her autoattack was
129-129-184 direct and 89 bleed – 176 poison.
DPS that works out to 258-258-368 as scepter is a 1/2 second attack. So even with Rabid, the direct damage is far better DPS than the conditions.

Rampager
171-171-215 direct 75 bleed – 148 poison
DPS 342-342-430.

Rampager lost 14 points of bleed and 28 points of poison and in exchange picked up 84-84-62 direct.

Oh, and since I know you’re thinking it…but…but..bleeds stack! Yup. In testing they get to 5 for a split second and hold at 4. Not enough to make up for the direct damage buff, and it takes 3 seconds to get there. And now you’re prolly thinking, but…but…I can use undead runes and earth or agony sigils and skills and stuffs to get more stacks. Yup. And a direct damage build can use direct damage runes and skills all of which hit harder with Rampager because power scales better than cond damage.

Oh, for giggles:
Berserker’s
248-248-354 direct 43 bleed 84 poison
496-496-708 DPS.

Berserker’s is even the best DPS choice on a ‘condition class’ like a necro.

And to really, really make the point:
30 Points in Curses for 300 points of condition damage
30 Points in Death Magic for 300 points of Toughness
6 Undead Runes for 183 condition damage and 50 Toughness & 5% of toughness to cond damage

Basically, I skewed this test as much as I could in favor of Rabid’s over Rampager’s

Rabid
141-141-202 w/ 118 bleed & 234 poison
282-282-404 DPS

Rampager
179-179-256 w/ 102 bleed & 203 poison
358-358-512 DPS

Rampager’s still wins because power is still better than condition damage as a DPS stat.

Oh, and I haven’t brought it up yet, but Rampager’s has more precision as well. So along with the better damage in normal attacks, you’re going to be looking at a higher crit rate. And if instead of purposely trying to skew things towards Rabid, I’d just gone and built a Rampager based DPS build with appropriate runes, sigils, skills, and traits, it’s not even close which is the better armor set.

(and again, neither of them will get to what a necro wearing berserker’s can get to)

because it doesn’t work at all

maddoctor.2738:

2. That’s reason enough, why should someone that does less be paid more? It’s the single stat that contributes nothing to a party…

If only life followed this rule…

Just replace MF gear entirely with zerker/knight (or rabid/carrion in the case of traveler’s MF gear) gear. Then, buff it’s effectiveness x5 and leave it so that the only sources are unstackable boosters or food buffs. The problem really seems to lie in player’s ability to stack ridiculous amounts of MF, which really affect’s their ability to participate meaningfully (and forcing a disparity financially between them and those that chose to gear more optimally).

@Xavori.3768:

Actually your math is flawed. Your dps calculation is way off.

Each strike of the skill takes ½sec, that means the chain takes 1.5sec total. You cant double the damage per strike to get the actual dps. Dps would be.

Rabid 129+129+184 / 1.5 = 295dps+(89×2)176 = 649 dps
Rampagers 171171+215 /1.5 = 305dps+(75×2)+148 = 603 dps

You are already behind after 1 attack chain from scepter.

Berserkers 248+248+354 /1.5 = 567dps+(43×2)+84 = 737 dps

This is the result after 1 chain, the initial dps from direct damage wont go up for each following chain, it will be the same, since the next chain you will have done.

(129+129+184)x2 / 3 = 295 dps etc. But the stacks of bleeding will double.

So after the second chain it will be like this.

Rabid 129+129+184 / 1.5 = 295dps+(89×4)176 = 827 dps
Rampagers 171171+215 /1.5 = 305dps+(75×4)148 = 753 dps
Berserkers 248248+354 /1.5 = 567dps+(43×4)+84 = 823 dps

And it goes on like this. To make it fair we can see how it will be with the avarage of 12 stacks. in a chain.

Rabid 129+129+184 / 1.5 = 295dps+(89×12)176 = 1539 dps
Rampagers 171171+215 /1.5 = 305dps+(75×12)148 = 1353dps
Berserkers 248248+354 /1.5 = 567dps+(43×12)+84 = 1167 dps

The higher the stacks go, the more beneficial Rabid is. You already see it tops rampagers even in the first Sc#1 chain.

Not sure where you got the idea from to calculate dps like that. You need to calculate total damage divided by time. Chain is 1.5 seconds long, so you need to divide the chains total damage with 1.5. Conditions are static and deal damage per seconds, in their case you just add up the sum for active stacks and you get the right number.

At your bottom example I can give you this, rampagers will be ahead by a whooping 24dps on the first chain, anything after that will be behind. There will be enough condition on the target by the time the second chain has reached its second attack on the target that rampagers will fall behind. Reason is because DD is static, but conditions stack, so at a certain point, in this case a very easy point, rabid will be far superior.

And if it came down to a PvP situation vs the two sets, rampagers wouldnt have the benefit of its power vs the toughness of the rabid set, just the two duking it out with auto attacks would make the rabid wearer win, because he mitigates your power while dealing his full intended damage hes specced for, the damage you are behind on.

Nice try on the bad math and pretending that you get 4 stacks of bleeding from the get go.

(171 + 171 + 215)/1.5 does not equal 305. You can’t even make typos or miss a sign to get that number. Made your claim look good tho, eh?

Anyway, I’m done. I have no desire to argue against made up numbers.

4 on the get go? No 4 after two chains as I said.

And sorry about that misscalculation, I have missed a number while tapping it into the calculator, my bad. The dps should be 818 total with the 4 stack example, DD dps should be 371. I pointed out your misscalculation and you pointed out mine, mistakes do happen and misstypes do happen frequently, even on a calculator.

So rampagers would still fall behind on the second chain.

The final example dps result for ravager should be 1419 dps. With the avarage of 12 stacks. You see you are falling behind in any gear except rabid for a condi spec. The math doesnt lie. And not only is the damage lower, but the survivability and aggro is lower aswell. Survivability for a class such as the low dodge necro is important, it lets you survive more hits, avoiding that low end regen and lets your death shroud take more hits.

And your own final example is only a 24 dps difference between rampagers over rabid, meaning it will fall behind fast after the 2nd chain and up. Since there were no calculation mistakes in that.

And I love how you claim a mistake is madeup numbers when you go and count dps in a very wrong way to try and prove a point. I also dont know what kind of spec you run that can only get 4-5 stacks up before they start falling off… trait for condi duration in curses maybe?

It’s a bit unfair for the rest of the group when someone traded a stat for something that only affects himself/herself. That’s just my take on the MF gear. It’s tough to say whether or not it should truly be taken away from the game. It should probably just be rethought of in a different form. Perhaps maybe another consumable (like the one bought with gems) that gives magic find?