Guild Wars 2

MrWubzy.3587:

EazyPanda.6419:

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Nicely typed. I dislike it when others use the word ‘grind’ in the wrong way, and it makes me harken back to the days of Final Fantasy II (IV) on the SNES. Grinding out those levels just to complete most of the sections…THAT’S grind. Having to speed needless amounts of time just to play the kitten game is grind. Not going after an optional skin/drop/shiny, that’s called farming.

And before somebody comes in and says, “Well you have to ‘grind’ to 80 to play Living Story!” Not really. But you also have Personal Story to do along the way. In Final Fantasy IV, there was no content to do while I leveled up. If there was (optional summon drops, equip drops) that was all OPTIONAL stuff, and I’d be farming for them. But my main goal was leveling to fight the boss or complete that section.

THAT’S grind.

in truth your idea that you have to “grind to 80th level” doesn’t hold true either.

It takes NO real time in most MMOs to level to max post WoW and the quest for experience model ..

They hand everything to you now IN most games .. You really don’t need to earn anything (save maybe achieves BUT most of them I stumble over anyway while playing) ..

NOW grinding is like old EQ1 when you spent 10 to 12 hours in the same spot killing the exactly same spawns to level up (if you were low enough level that is as sometimes it took a lot of days to do this) .. Or Ultima Online and the insane amoutn of times you had to end up using your abilities to finally get it up to a reasonable level (UO has or had no levels as such just skills you had to increase) ..

The over all PROBLEM with ALL MMOs is that they play like a game you play for a month then delete maybe to come back to restart after a year or 3 ..

MMOs you are supposed to have “growth” and honestly I think the issue is the games (this one as well) give you way too much in way too short a time .. It doesn’t take all that long to level to 80th level .. then you have to get your character geared up (this DOES take a lot of grinding but since you level so fast you should know you are going to get caught somewhere) …

IF you want to be handed everything an MMO really isn’t the place and a first person shooter is definitely a better game for you ..

myself I am hoping for a game more in line with the old eq that DOES take a long time to level up so you can feel actual growth in the character instead of ending up feeling like a “cheap one night stand”… sadly I also know this won’t happen as the gaming companies are all after “big money” which means making it appeal to the players like myself who want a challenge and a game the lasts a long time and the more casual players who might only play for 2 to 3 hours through the week and then a bit more on the weekends .. because of the second group of players those like myself have suffered since 3 or 4 years into EQ 1 so about 16+ years

shaman.1938:

MrWubzy.3587:

EazyPanda.6419:

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in truth your idea that you have to “grind to 80th level” doesn’t hold true either.

It takes NO real time in most MMOs to level to max post WoW and the quest for experience model ..

They hand everything to you now IN most games .. You really don’t need to earn anything (save maybe achieves BUT most of them I stumble over anyway while playing) ..

NOW grinding is like old EQ1 when you spent 10 to 12 hours in the same spot killing the exactly same spawns to level up (if you were low enough level that is as sometimes it took a lot of days to do this) .. Or Ultima Online and the insane amoutn of times you had to end up using your abilities to finally get it up to a reasonable level (UO has or had no levels as such just skills you had to increase) ..

The over all PROBLEM with ALL MMOs is that they play like a game you play for a month then delete maybe to come back to restart after a year or 3 ..

MMOs you are supposed to have “growth” and honestly I think the issue is the games (this one as well) give you way too much in way too short a time .. It doesn’t take all that long to level to 80th level .. then you have to get your character geared up (this DOES take a lot of grinding but since you level so fast you should know you are going to get caught somewhere) …

IF you want to be handed everything an MMO really isn’t the place and a first person shooter is definitely a better game for you ..

myself I am hoping for a game more in line with the old eq that DOES take a long time to level up so you can feel actual growth in the character instead of ending up feeling like a “cheap one night stand”… sadly I also know this won’t happen as the gaming companies are all after “big money” which means making it appeal to the players like myself who want a challenge and a game the lasts a long time and the more casual players who might only play for 2 to 3 hours through the week and then a bit more on the weekends .. because of the second group of players those like myself have suffered since 3 or 4 years into EQ 1 so about 16+ years

I was referring to grinding levels in Final Fantasy IV, not MMOs. And the mention of having to level to 80 to do Living World was just a sort of flame shield to prevent those claiming that we have to ‘grind’ levels in GW2, sorry if it wasn’t clear. I have no issues with GW2 in terms of farming or leveling process, I was just agreeing with EazyPanda’s post and attempting to define grind myself.

Jermoe Morrow.9501:

Mightybird.6034:

and by that I mean the nickle and diming grindy feel whenever you want to change your character’s appearance or have more than character 5 slots or more bank slots or….etc. Like I paid 50+ USD $ for it when it originally came out. Played since day 1. I’ve got like two, TWO pieces of cosmetics I’ve unlocked (like the special ones you can apply for free) . Seriously? There are f2p games with more cosmetic options for less time spent.

Sure there are random loot crap unlocks. I’m talking about looks you’d actually want on your character. I know the token thingys arent too hard to grind but they’re still a grind. for a paid model I should be able to change my appearance on a whim.

I remember when WoW added transmutation, it had a gold cost. Haven’t played wow in while, but I know I was paying a monthly fee for out and still had to pay to transmute (and most of their armors were simply pallet swaps, not fully modeled like in gw2)

Horrible example, im an 8 year WoW veteran and the transmutation costs in WoW are 30gold a piece at the most, it barely makes a dent in your wallet, that’s equivalent to spending around 30 silver in gw2 to transmute, we would all rather be paying 30 silver than the transmute charges system,
you can make thousands and thousands of gold in WoW extremely easily, 100 gold is like 1 gold in gw2, transmutation in WoW is basically free

Leo G.4501:

Behellagh.1468:

@Leo G

So what you want is a direct or alternate proxy currency to purchase items if they are in the regular Gem Shop or not. Offering a service like that would alienate the player base.

OR some sort of rotational/seasonal schedule for the items.

OR rotating more things through the store more often.

Please don’t try to twist my intent to sound like I feel entitled thus the bad guy.

And this is what many are talking about with the forums at large being toxic. People feel some sort of agenda to create conflict and argument. They don’t see people expressing ill content that could be resolved or mitigated. They’d sooner label people as a minority and thus nothing should be done and dismiss their proposition at best, and at worse label that person a whiner and try to silence them.

You tell me what bad could happen if the devs considered doing any of what I suggest. And a currency to alienate players? You can’t be serious. I wouldn’t go so far as to think people could have such thin skin to feel alienated about purchasing a gem-store only item outside of in-game means. I mean, geeze, I could feel alienated that certain skins are being held from me for no reason other than for false scarcity but I don’t.

I don’t know how you are reading my comments as toxic? I’m simply pointing out why it won’t work, it’s not like these ideas haven’t been discussed before. If rotating items in and out of the Gem Shop didn’t increase cash gem sales over making availability permanent they would do so since it would be to their benefit. If they thought that an availability schedule wouldn’t negatively impact cash gem sales they would publish one. As they add more annual events I imagine items available during those times will return.

And yes, if you allow players to bypass the gem system to buy items directly with cash that are not currently available in the Gem Shop will cause the perception of a two class system. If you think the cries of “Pay to Win” are without merit, a move like this will strengthen that claim since many who equate “win” in this game with gem shop items like skins and high demand/price TP items like precursors and legendaries.

Maybe you weren’t here when ANet “mistakenly” mentioned that the Gem exchange goes the other way and you can buy gems and exchange it for gold. Didn’t matter that the exchange always had that feature there were enough cries about “Pay to Win” that ANet discontinued having that in Evon’s Tuesday Black Lion blog post only after a few weeks. Even though an upswing in gem to gold conversion would lower the rate for gold to gem.

My mention about another currency, well there is a reason everyone now use proxy currencies for their cash shops. It’s a legal thing to dodge any need to reimburse actual cash to a player as players are buying a proxy currency and not items directly. So if they aren’t going to take cash directly and you are bypassing the gem shop then the only way to do that is a second proxy currency.

I’m sorry you felt attacked, it wasn’t my intention. But at the end of the day companies tend to do what’s best for their bottom line, as long as it doesn’t alienate (more) their customers. Your ideas will either reignite cries of “Pay to Win” or simply aren’t proven to increase cash gem sales over what forced scarcity, surprise limited time returns and surprise sales. I’m simply pointing that out.

At least the gathering tools seem permanent items in the shop now. I suppose that they weren’t seeing bumps in cash gem sales when they returned anymore.

Leonhardt.8164:

Jermoe Morrow.9501:

Mightybird.6034:

and by that I mean the nickle and diming grindy feel whenever you want to change your character’s appearance or have more than character 5 slots or more bank slots or….etc. Like I paid 50+ USD $ for it when it originally came out. Played since day 1. I’ve got like two, TWO pieces of cosmetics I’ve unlocked (like the special ones you can apply for free) . Seriously? There are f2p games with more cosmetic options for less time spent.

Sure there are random loot crap unlocks. I’m talking about looks you’d actually want on your character. I know the token thingys arent too hard to grind but they’re still a grind. for a paid model I should be able to change my appearance on a whim.

I remember when WoW added transmutation, it had a gold cost. Haven’t played wow in while, but I know I was paying a monthly fee for out and still had to pay to transmute (and most of their armors were simply pallet swaps, not fully modeled like in gw2)

Horrible example, im an 8 year WoW veteran and the transmutation costs in WoW are 30gold a piece at the most, it barely makes a dent in your wallet, that’s equivalent to spending around 30 silver in gw2 to transmute, we would all rather be paying 30 silver than the transmute charges system,
you can make thousands and thousands of gold in WoW extremely easily, 100 gold is like 1 gold in gw2, transmutation in WoW is basically free

You can get them for free in GW2 as well.

Mightybird.6034:

zenleto.6179:

So now paying for non-essential items is considered a grind? Have I read the post right?

I already paid 50 bucks plus tax for the game. Why am I still paying/grinding every time I want some decent/new/change. they are using a f2p model and still charging people.

And don’t give me non-esesential bullcrap. The whole thiing is non essential. Its a game you don’t need any of it.

However, I paid for it and I want that model of an experience out of it. That’s what people expect if they pay for a game.

I dont think it’s a f2p model. Wow also requires you to grind content if you want a certain skin/mount/whatever. The problem with this game, though, is how many times you have to do the same thing to get the skin you want.

EazyPanda.6419:

Daily Login is a grind? Really? Daily logins are a REWARD, and it’s there to reward a player who logins frequently. It’s your own fault that you did not login when the thing you want is on sale. It’s also your own fault that you did not buy GW2 earlier during launch in the first place.

Heh, I usually get a friendly “Thank you for your service” not a “It’s your fault for choosing to serve your country so too bad!” I don’t choose not to log in, I am inhibited from logging in for long periods of time. I don’t even care about the daily rewards, I just care about limited time offers that often only pop up in the gem store once a year (it seems). If I could at least know when something I want is in the gem store, I can implore a friend to gift it to me and just pay them back later. Or just rotating stuff more often so the times I do log in have a better chance of new stuff being available…or, like someone above said, just leave the stuff in the gem store so I can buy them at my leisure.

And I say it feels like a grind because it feels repetitive and is a side-ways means of getting the thing you want. Want Brock’s badge to progress? Gotta grind to get high enough pokes to beat him. Want to get that neat skin in the gem store? If it’s gem-store only, you gotta keep logging in to check even if you know it won’t be.

Whether it is or isn’t a grind is quite beside the point. Do you honestly feel like making long posts about what a grind is or isn’t? Or do you want to discuss ideas, suggestions or issues with the game?

Behellagh.1468:

I don’t know how you are reading my comments as toxic? I’m simply pointing out why it won’t work, it’s not like these ideas haven’t been discussed before.

With how these forums tend to behave, “discussing” is hardly what ever happens. If there’s anything I’m a vet of it’s these forums. Maybe more discussion occured on the subject on reddit but most discussion tends to spiral into less-than-useful feedback. Especially if it’s not red-named backed.

Behellagh.1468:

]If rotating items in and out of the Gem Shop didn’t increase cash gem sales over making availability permanent they would do so since it would be to their benefit. If they thought that an availability schedule wouldn’t negatively impact cash gem sales they would publish one. As they add more annual events I imagine items available during those times will return.

Consumerism is very much experimental. You can’t just jump to the conclusion that the seller knows always your interests and issues. The only way you can make improvements is to make issues known and/or make suggestions. Now, unless they have mentioned that something would negatively impact something, don’t jump to the conclusion that it definitely will.

And that’s what I mean by discussion. People will jump to conclusions rather than present evidence. This just side-steps discussion and gets right to the point of dismissing. So tell me how any of the suggested would negatively impact you. What would your reactions be (or would be if you haven’t already purchased all the gem-store items you like)?

Behellagh.1468:

And yes, if you allow players to bypass the gem system to buy items directly with cash that are not currently available in the Gem Shop will cause the perception of a two class system. If you think the cries of “Pay to Win” are without merit, a move like this will strengthen that claim since many who equate “win” in this game with gem shop items like skins and high demand/price TP items like precursors and legendaries.

Please do not create strawman arguments. What I’d have suggested is, temporary gem-store items could be purchasable with only real cash when not in the gem store. I don’t see how it creates some sort of class system that doesn’t already exist now. There will be the people with the item and the people without the item. Whether you choose to buy it when it’s in the gem store or buy it when it’s not or wait until it’s in the gem store again, it leaves the classes the way they are just adds another option.

And no one’s talking about precursors or legendaries.

Behellagh.1468:

At least the gathering tools seem permanent items in the shop now. I suppose that they weren’t seeing bumps in cash gem sales when they returned anymore.

That’s likely only one contributing factor. I don’t think many of the players liked it when they made one gathering tool give extra items. Many might be waiting to see if any more will be introduced before ‘wasting’ gems on something that doesn’t.

I’m pretty sure, while they do know what things increase sales and aim to work toward the player wants and how to get more revenue through that, it’s all still very experimental.

Leo G.4501:

EazyPanda.6419:

Daily Login is a grind? Really? Daily logins are a REWARD, and it’s there to reward a player who logins frequently. It’s your own fault that you did not login when the thing you want is on sale. It’s also your own fault that you did not buy GW2 earlier during launch in the first place.

Heh, I usually get a friendly “Thank you for your service” not a “It’s your fault for choosing to serve your country so too bad!” I don’t choose not to log in, I am inhibited from logging in for long periods of time. I don’t even care about the daily rewards, I just care about limited time offers that often only pop up in the gem store once a year (it seems). If I could at least know when something I want is in the gem store, I can implore a friend to gift it to me and just pay them back later. Or just rotating stuff more often so the times I do log in have a better chance of new stuff being available…or, like someone above said, just leave the stuff in the gem store so I can buy them at my leisure.

And I say it feels like a grind because it feels repetitive and is a side-ways means of getting the thing you want. Want Brock’s badge to progress? Gotta grind to get high enough pokes to beat him. Want to get that neat skin in the gem store? If it’s gem-store only, you gotta keep logging in to check even if you know it won’t be.

Whether it is or isn’t a grind is quite beside the point. Do you honestly feel like making long posts about what a grind is or isn’t? Or do you want to discuss ideas, suggestions or issues with the game?

Well, forgive me if I do not know the exact circumstances you are facing that prevents you from logging in all day.
In that case, you do not need to login everyday to check the gem store. You can ask your buddy to notify you if anything interesting pops out in the gemstore. You can subscribe to the newsletter, check the forums frequently, reddit. etc. Many (not all) items go on sale for at least a week or two.

But then again, it’s hardly A-net’s fault for wanting to keep exclusive limited edition items exclusive. It’s a marketing strategy, a way to turn a profit.
If these item goes on sale regularly, there will be no rush to buy any gems.
You see, when A-net announces an limited-time only item, gem’s prices skyrocket, hence most people with a modest in-game wallet will be deterred from buying gems using their virtual in-game-gold.
What do they do? They open their wallets and buy gems with real money, hence, A-net profits.
If there is no rush to get gems, most people will just farm gold to get their gems.

Believe me, I’m not a big fan of exclusive items, especially the 24 hour exclusives. (Black Feather Wings backpack for example). They skyrocket the prices of gems, which makes converting gold into gems much more expensive.
On the bright side, sometimes A-net does bring back old skins for sale once in a while, Chaos weapons for example.

And while it feels like a grind to you, it’s not necessarily a grind. Like @pdavis said,

I don’t see what limited edition gem store items have to do with grind. You want to buy gem store items, then you can. There is no need to grind for it.

Again, your rant doesn’t really make sense. And just a comment about the context shows that you yourself aren’t really sure about the point you were trying to make.

So please tell me, how are limited edition gem store items related to grind?

What you are complaining about is wanting A-net to bring back limited-time-only items, which is completely derailing from the original topic of the thread.

Please do not be so self-centered as to think that A-net only wants your money. They make more money when they release limited edition items than they would if they just put them permanently on the gemstore.
Similarly, do not think that my earlier post is addressed to you alone. I’m stating out my views and helping others, beside you, to understand what A-net means when they talk about gw2’s ‘no-grind’ policy.

EazyPanda.6419:

Well, forgive me if I do not know the exact circumstances you are facing that prevents you from logging in all day.
In that case, you do not need to login everyday to check the gem store. You can ask your buddy to notify you if anything interesting pops out in the gemstore. You can subscribe to the newsletter, check the forums frequently, reddit. etc. Many (not all) items go on sale for at least a week or two.

That’s great and all for reoccurring items. Doesn’t apply to things that seem to only ever pop up once and then not again for who knows how long. Like, I’m still confused why the Jungle explorer outfit was released in November and is still available yet the Arctic Explorer outfit was released in December yet is seasonal. I can’t ask a buddy to notify me if I can’t access means to do so all the time. Which is why I suggested some notice in advance. Nor can I tell my buddy to get me stuff I’d like if I don’t even know if I’ll like it because they release the stuff, take it down a couple weeks later then never put it back up for over half a year. Sure, I’ll be able to look it up then and say “yeah, I want that” but it’s far too late and the chance it’ll pop up again is unknown which is why I suggest cycling stuff through the gem store more often (mind you, it doesn’t have to be constantly, just reasonably, like why was Braham’s Mace only released once more for one day after it’s initial release? Would it be unreasonable to suggest it being released at the VERY least 2 more times throughout the year?

EazyPanda.6419:

But then again, it’s hardly A-net’s fault for wanting to keep exclusive limited edition items exclusive. It’s a marketing strategy, a way to turn a profit.

It’s not really turning any sort of profit to not sell something. It’s only keeping things exclusive and enforcing a kind of effort to get you to log in. I don’t dismiss that necessity, I just suggest to throw a bone to people like myself you cannot keep logging in all the time to keep tabs on this type of stuff. At the very least, it will make the effort to get these skins less hopeless as I don’t have to wait over a year to try and reobtain these skins.

Please tell me I’m being unreasonable here. I’d really like to know if I am because I honestly think I’m being exceptionally reasonable. I’m not demanding I get what I want or expect to be pandered to, I just think they’d turn more profit by actually selling these items more often…which is my entire complaint. I can’t spend money on the stuff I want because they aren’t selling it.

EazyPanda.6419:

If these item goes on sale regularly, there will be no rush to buy any gems.

This is an assumption. It’s jumping to the conclusion that the skins have to be made available all the time or very often to the point there would be no rush. You can still introduce skins, rotating them over the course of 3 months (i.e. release an old skin for a day 1 month, then do the same the next month, and again the next, then start over again on the 4th month) and still cause a rush and make more money in the process.

EazyPanda.6419:

You see, when A-net announces an limited-time only item, gem’s prices skyrocket, hence most people with a modest in-game wallet will be deterred from buying gems using their virtual in-game-gold.

This jumps to the conclusion that gem prices aren’t already sky-high. They shoot up because gold is more available too. But it’s not only them trying to encourage you to buy gems with cash but also encouraging players that hoard gems to spend them. The only way to inhibit this is to put more items in the gem store more often (i.e. old skins as well as making new ones to rotate in and out).

EazyPanda.6419:

What you are complaining about is wanting A-net to bring back limited-time-only items, which is completely derailing from the original topic of the thread.

Oh, I’m sorry I expressed an opinion and then someone came to tell me my perfectly viable opinion (that you agreed with) is wrong thus pulling the topic off topic. But I do feel it ties into grind as one of the aspect of GW2 that makes it feel less grindy is not needing to log in all the time and not making you feel like you miss out by taking breaks from the game. But their tactic to keep items exclusive burns those that take breaks and creates that impulse to do the repetative task to get a desired goal despite not feeling the desire to do said task.

EazyPanda.6419:

Please do not be so self-centered as to think that A-net only wants your money.

Please don’t call me self-centered. Because I’m expressing my opinion in as much a non-self-centered way as I can as well as offering solutions. My question is, why are you adamant about dismissing my opinion or issues? What am I taking away from you that somehow requires you to defend Anet’s positions that they themselves aren’t actively defending? Do you just agree that what they do to keep skins exclusive is better for the game and its players?

Leo G.4501:

Behellagh.1468:

]If rotating items in and out of the Gem Shop didn’t increase cash gem sales over making availability permanent they would do so since it would be to their benefit. If they thought that an availability schedule wouldn’t negatively impact cash gem sales they would publish one. As they add more annual events I imagine items available during those times will return.

Consumerism is very much experimental. You can’t just jump to the conclusion that the seller knows always your interests and issues. The only way you can make improvements is to make issues known and/or make suggestions. Now, unless they have mentioned that something would negatively impact something, don’t jump to the conclusion that it definitely will.

And that’s what I mean by discussion. People will jump to conclusions rather than present evidence. This just side-steps discussion and gets right to the point of dismissing. So tell me how any of the suggested would negatively impact you. What would your reactions be (or would be if you haven’t already purchased all the gem-store items you like)?

It’s not about me, it’s about ANet’s income stream. If ANet thought that leaving items in the gem shop permanently would increase cash gem sales then that’s what would be happening. They, ANet, don’t believe that. So we get items that get pulled, with warning, and brought back, without warning, and in both cases we see an uptick in exchange rates as players rush to convert their gold into gems and if when they don’t have enough gems they break out the wallet. And when the exchange rate goes up it also stimulates buying gems, again with cash, to convert into gold which then lowers the exchange rate by restocking the exchange with gems.

Behellagh.1468:

And yes, if you allow players to bypass the gem system to buy items directly with cash that are not currently available in the Gem Shop will cause the perception of a two class system. If you think the cries of “Pay to Win” are without merit, a move like this will strengthen that claim since many who equate “win” in this game with gem shop items like skins and high demand/price TP items like precursors and legendaries.

Please do not create strawman arguments. What I’d have suggested is, temporary gem-store items could be purchasable with only real cash when not in the gem store. I don’t see how it creates some sort of class system that doesn’t already exist now. There will be the people with the item and the people without the item. Whether you choose to buy it when it’s in the gem store or buy it when it’s not or wait until it’s in the gem store again, it leaves the classes the way they are just adds another option.

And no one’s talking about precursors or legendaries.

There is no difference between what you said and what I said. You want to be able to use cash only to buy items not in the gem shop. Which is what I said earlier and you said just now. It’s a two tier class system because players who don’t have the disposable cash can’t get “currently unavailable” items from the “cash only” store when you can. That makes a mockery of the Gem Shop’s fairness between cash bought and gold bought gems since both groups can only spend gems on what’s in the Gem Shop at that time. Your suggestion breaks that by making those with cash “better” by bypassing the wait for an item’s return. That’s two tiers, two classes of player.

Any advantage that cash buys a player already brings up cries about “Pay to Win”.

• It’s shouted when players are told about the Gems to Gold option on the exchange.
• It’s shouted as the exchange rate increases and it gets harder to accumulate enough gold to either buy gems with gold for Gem Shop items or buy highly desirable items from the TP.
• It’s shouted as prices of precursors and legendaries prices go up because the perception is that their prices are high because of the 1% crowd have bid the price up to that point and one way to get to be in the 1% is buying gold with [sarcasm] dirty, filthy cash bought gems (the other is by being an evil TP flipper) [/sarcasm].

And you don’t see that a “got cash, then right this way to the exclusive shop of currently unavailable items” would simply aggravate that issue? That it isn’t treating one type of player very differently than another, making a defacto two classes of players?

Behellagh.1468:

There is no difference between what you said and what I said. You want to be able to use cash only to buy items not in the gem shop. Which is what I said earlier and you said just now. It’s a two tier class system because players who don’t have the disposable cash can’t get “currently unavailable” items from the “cash only” store when you can. That makes a mockery of the Gem Shop’s fairness between cash bought and gold bought gems since both groups can only spend gems on what’s in the Gem Shop at that time. Your suggestion breaks that by making those with cash “better” by bypassing the wait for an item’s return. That’s two tiers, two classes of player.

So it’s fair to make a mockery of the gem shop’s fairness by dividing people who have time to log in and who do not. You don’t see the double standard between what I said and what you said?

I’m not actively suggesting making stuff that isn’t available currently purchasable with cash only, but I am saying it works the same way in making classes of “haves” and “have nots”. If the double standard works for one way, there is no mockery or alienation for working the other way.

This would be vastly different if what was on the gem store didn’t cycle at such ungodly slow intervals. It honestly wouldn’t matter if you’d then buy with gems or buy with cash depending on availability because either option would be there at some point within half a year.

Leo G.4501:

So it’s fair to make a mockery of the gem shop’s fairness by dividing people who have time to log in and who do not. You don’t see the double standard between what I said and what you said?

Really? That’s your retort. It’s unfair for players who can’t play (login) over players who can?

Well that’s the way the cookie crumbles. Can’t log in for a LS 1 chapter, you missed it. Can’t log in when a LS 2 chapter was introduced, you now have to buy it. Can’t log in during the multiple week Halloween or Wintersday event, you miss out on the items you could get when they were going on. Weekend sale at the Gem Shop, oh well.

It’s like complaining you never got a Little League Trophy because you never played Little League. Sorry, you have to at least participate (play), not just buy a glove (game if the analogy isn’t obvious to you).

And as others asked, what in the world does this, missing out on gem shop items, have to do with “grinding”?

MrWubzy.3587:

EazyPanda.6419:

-Snipped for length!-

Nicely typed. I dislike it when others use the word ‘grind’ in the wrong way, and it makes me harken back to the days of Final Fantasy II (IV) on the SNES. Grinding out those levels just to complete most of the sections…THAT’S grind. Having to speed needless amounts of time just to play the kitten game is grind. Not going after an optional skin/drop/shiny, that’s called farming.

And before somebody comes in and says, “Well you have to ‘grind’ to 80 to play Living Story!” Not really. But you also have Personal Story to do along the way. In Final Fantasy IV, there was no content to do while I leveled up. If there was (optional summon drops, equip drops) that was all OPTIONAL stuff, and I’d be farming for them. But my main goal was leveling to fight the boss or complete that section.

THAT’S grind.

uhhh i never grinded in ffII at all. i mean literally. i got enough exp to do everything just following the story. I think you just liked to be overpowered.

Leo G.4501:

-snip- first 3 paragraphs

I’d have to admit, I personally dislike limited-time-only items as much as you do.
Yes, I drooled over Belinda’s Greatsword skin as well.
However, I do sort of understand why A-net decided to go with them.
They may want to get more gem sales by releasing those, and that is perfectly understandable seeing that they are a business. Once they release something frequently, as you suggested, players will take note of it, and they will gradually stop panicking over ‘common’ limited edition items, and less people will feel pressured to buy gems.

However, you do have a point. I’d say that it is not unreasonable for you to want access to these exclusive items, yet I doubt it’s a good idea to release them too frequently.

What I personally feel might work however, is to enable people to SELL these limited-edition items. That way gem-buyers may treat it as an investment, as the price of the item in gold will undoubtedly rise.
Anet profits from these gem buyers more, as they may buy more than one copy of the item for sale, because as it stands, there is no reason for a player to buy a gem-store item more than once.
That way, people who missed their window to buy to buy the said item will still have a chance to get the item, gem-buyers get more gold out of their gems, and A-net still gets their profit. In theory, everybody wins. (this is actually how the current state of Dragon Nest’s economy works, last I’ve checked)

Though this will undoubtedly kitten up the gold to gem conversion rate, and a lot more problems will undoubtedly spring up, and GW2 may be accused to being a lot more Pay-To-Win (at least win in terms of fashion sense), but we can deal with that later.

Leo G.4501:

-snip- 4th and 5th

From what I can foresee, what may happen is either one of two situations. Either people start buying gems, as you predicted, or more people will start hoarding gems in anticipation for something they want appearing in the gem store.
Yes there will still be a rush, but not as big as the ones happening now.
From what I can tell, many people are reluctant to buy gems, if they can help it, they would rather farm gold to buy and hoard gems.
Unlike the current limited-time items, -where most people is caught off guard by the sudden release, and decide to resort to buying gems(with cash due to the sudden spike in gem prices)-, giving them prior notice will allow players to slowly hoard gems from farming, as well as giving them a good reason to start hoarding.
Sure there are people hoarding gems even right now, but from what I can tell, most people only buy gems (with gold) when they actually need it.

Of course, after a while, the prices of gems will be way too high to justify buying gems with gold, and people will have to start buying gems with cash to get gem-store items.
See the problem? By then GW2’s gem store will be pretty much inaccessible to those who don’t have the money to buy gems with cash. What happens to young players who do not have the privilege of having really nice parents who are willing to buy gems for them? And it’s already happening, gold to gems prices are already ridiculous as it is, doing so will just speed up the process.

…. Perhaps I’m way out of line there, as I’m no economist, but still, that is my amateur economical predictions.

double post as the post was too long

Oh, I’m sorry I expressed an opinion and then someone came to tell me my perfectly viable opinion (that you agreed with) is wrong thus pulling the topic off topic. But I do feel it ties into grind as one of the aspect of GW2 that makes it feel less grindy is not needing to log in all the time and not making you feel like you miss out by taking breaks from the game. But their tactic to keep items exclusive burns those that take breaks and creates that impulse to do the repetative task to get a desired goal despite not feeling the desire to do said task.

Well, perhaps logging in daily is one of your definition of grind, yet I doubt many people will find checking for updates/gem store items categorised as ‘grinding’.
I suppose your situation is a fairly uncommon one, so I’d leave it at there.
Still, you’ll have to understand that most people will probably not be able to really understand why you felt logging in is a grind.
As I’ve posted before, my definition of grind is being forced to do something repetitive to be able to access higher level content. A huge distinction don’t you think?

Leo G.4501:

Please don’t call me self-centered. Because I’m expressing my opinion in as much a non-self-centered way as I can as well as offering solutions. My question is, why are you adamant about dismissing my opinion or issues? What am I taking away from you that somehow requires you to defend Anet’s positions that they themselves aren’t actively defending? Do you just agree that what they do to keep skins exclusive is better for the game and its players?

Very well, I suppose calling you self-centred was a bit uncalled for, for that I apologise. I’m currently annoyed at something in real life, and have directed some of my frustration while typing the previous post.

And believe me, I’m not blindly dismissing your opinions or issues.
It’s just that I am still not convinced that your issue has anything to do with gw2 feeling like a ‘grindy’ f2p game. =)

However, I’m as to why I’m defending A-net, I suppose its because compared to most other game developers, I felt that A-net is by far one of the most non-money-driven game publisher I’m ever came across in my decades of MMORPG. Frequent sales, no subscription fee, gems can be purchased through in game gold, a true no forced grind policy, a system that discourages competition over materials/mobs, the list goes on.
GW2 is like a haven compared to all the other MMO’s I’ve played, a place where I can actually have fun, not worrying about how to get better stats to be accepted into parties to do end-game content, to feel forced to pay for something that is required to progress, etc.
In short, I respect A-net. Which is why I am annoyed with people trying to give A-net a bad reputation. Take this thread for example, GW2 is the least grindy MMO I’ve ever came across, and GW2’s selling point include a no-grind policy. What do people complain about? Too much grind in an almost grind-less game.
So no, you are not taking anything away from me, but I feel morally obliged to defend Anet from unfair accusations.

And keeping skins exclusive is both better and worse for both players and A-net.
For people who missed their chance to buy the skins, It’s obviously worse, but it’s arguably better for a player who had bought it, as they have the satisfaction of acquiring something others did not , a.k.a. able to show it off. Acquiring something rare and exclusive is arguably part of GW2’s endgame, hence the term Fashion Wars 2.
As for A-net, well who knows? They will probably profit from what you proposed, but as I’ve mentioned, it may drive complaints about gem prices through the roof, and player will have even more bad things to say about A-net.

Behellagh.1468:

Really? That’s your retort. It’s unfair for players who can’t play (login) over players who can?

Well that’s the way the cookie crumbles. Can’t log in for a LS 1 chapter, you missed it. Can’t log in when a LS 2 chapter was introduced, you now have to buy it. Can’t log in during the multiple week Halloween or Wintersday event, you miss out on the items you could get when they were going on. Weekend sale at the Gem Shop, oh well.

Really? That’s your retort. Make up a bunch of strawman arguments to instill some sort of bad sentiment in what my opinion brings forth?

Notice I mentioned multiple times in past posts that in-game events are a different ballgame. That includes LS1, Halloween, Wintersday, etc.

Gem store items are NOT in-game events. So why do I need to even log in to purchase them at all? Or to know they are there (or not there, as the case may be)? I even specifically said, if it was an in-game event, seasonal or otherwise, missing out on that is the reward for people that log in to play it. Locking out gem store skins that only sell on the gem store and doing so for long periods of time isn’t even close to the examples you mentioned. At least with a lot of those mentioned events (and their related skins) they can be obtain outside of that event. You tell me how that relates somehow.

That all said, and not even bothering to quote the other misguided parts of your post, I get the strong feeling you’re just trying to be contrary rather than being constructive at all. I think I’ll forego replying to anything else you’ve got to say. It’ll save both of us a lot of effort.

phys.7689:

MrWubzy.3587:

EazyPanda.6419:

-Snipped for length!-

Nicely typed. I dislike it when others use the word ‘grind’ in the wrong way, and it makes me harken back to the days of Final Fantasy II (IV) on the SNES. Grinding out those levels just to complete most of the sections…THAT’S grind. Having to speed needless amounts of time just to play the kitten game is grind. Not going after an optional skin/drop/shiny, that’s called farming.

And before somebody comes in and says, “Well you have to ‘grind’ to 80 to play Living Story!” Not really. But you also have Personal Story to do along the way. In Final Fantasy IV, there was no content to do while I leveled up. If there was (optional summon drops, equip drops) that was all OPTIONAL stuff, and I’d be farming for them. But my main goal was leveling to fight the boss or complete that section.

THAT’S grind.

uhhh i never grinded in ffII at all. i mean literally. i got enough exp to do everything just following the story. I think you just liked to be overpowered.

You and I must have been playing completely different games, then, friend. I remember having to get at least three or four levels to face bosses like Barbariccia and the very first Zeromus form just to be on even grounds with them, and I was fighting all of the extra things up until them with no run-aways and no deaths.

zenleto.6179:

So now paying for non-essential items is considered a grind? Have I read the post right?

Guess they successfully fooled you. Very effective marketing. The OP is right on the money. The game has steadily been changing towards more and more cash grabbing, and less and less new content. This is a trend that already started once they introduced the in-game store in GW1, and it has progressed downhill ever since GW2.

It seems to run parallel with a change within Anet itself, the company’s mentality and it’s staff. But it’s really nothing new. There are plenty of other game companies that do the same, to a worse or lesser extend. It’s one of the biggest problems that the game industry is facing at the moment. And while at first everyone seems fine with it (after all, it’s all optional), eventually plenty of players start to notice the sharp decline in quality in the game itself. After all, there’s always a price to be paid.

I have to wonder, why was it necessary to begin with? Wasn’t the game profitable enough without it?

EazyPanda.6419:

Well, perhaps logging in daily is one of your definition of grind, yet I doubt many people will find checking for updates/gem store items categorised as ‘grinding’.
I suppose your situation is a fairly uncommon one, so I’d leave it at there.

You’d be surprised. But honestly, I don’t need someone mentioning me being in a minority thus the problem is solved. I already mentioned that. It frankly does nothing but dismiss people’s opinions.

And I doubt I’m the only person who doesn’t like the long lock-out of certain skins in this skin-centric end-game MMO. Is 6 months of exclusivity not enough? By then some new hot skin is likely released to which people jump to getting that and that’s all you see. A few months more, shouldn’t be any harm releasing it again for a limited time.

EazyPanda.6419:

Still, you’ll have to understand that most people will probably not be able to really understand why you felt logging in is a grind.

Sidestepping. Don’t really need to go into what is or isn’t grind. Already mentioned that.

FYI, I’m a person that dislikes repeating myself. I don’t mind discussing things, but when people get to that point they are trying to backtrack over things already said, I get aggravated to the point I just stop.

Another FYI, the subject in general is getting me aggravated, not so much individual posters. As you can tell from previous posts, I can simply stop replying and be just fine expressing my opinion (and no, I don’t block people. I’ll still read your posts, I just won’t reply). I’m not blowing up at anyone just expressing my ill-content with an aspect of the game that has become an issue for me as the game aged. I enjoy the game, and I have no qualms taking breaks from it if I’m burnt out. So missing events isn’t the same as excluding from buying gem-store stuff. And THAT’s different from having limited time items and “one-time items you can get and not have any other opportunity to get from the gem store”.

In conclusion, this is a cosmetic-driven game with a cosmetic-driven end game. Exclusion is, in essence, what begets grind. The only way to not be excluded is to grind and since the only thing to strive for is skins and cosmetics, how this affects players’ mentalities, expectations and goals will be different from your regular MMOs with regular end-games.

EazyPanda.6419:

And keeping skins exclusive is both better and worse for both players and A-net.
For people who missed their chance to buy the skins, It’s obviously worse, but it’s arguably better for a player who had bought it, as they have the satisfaction of acquiring something others did not , a.k.a. able to show it off. Acquiring something rare and exclusive is arguably part of GW2’s endgame, hence the term Fashion Wars 2.
As for A-net, well who knows? They will probably profit from what you proposed, but as I’ve mentioned, it may drive complaints about gem prices through the roof, and player will have even more bad things to say about A-net.

Believe me, I understand this aspect. But as I mentioned previously in this post, how long should exclusivity be better for players? There’s no accomplishment in it. The only satisfaction is knowing other people don’t have it? That seems bad-spirited, thus bad for the playerbase. Why should it matter if someone has something that you don’t? And vise versa, why should it matter if someone doesn’t have something you do? When people run around with their legendaries and I plunk around with my exotic skins, I don’t think I should have what they have, I just think “It’d be nice to eventually get that skin”. Do people with legendaries somehow get satisfaction that I don’t have something? Seems like false satisfaction. Having the skin should be where one gets the satisfaction.

But all that is my opinion. Of course people will have different views and opinions of what they get out of having skins. Notice I’m not raging over not getting my Mace and Shield skin for my warrior. I know it will be released in the gem store eventually. What I am doing is expressing my ill content because, it may be possible I won’t be able to play my account again for several months thus missing out on a skin for an additional year?

I’m not asking for fairness, I’m asking to spend my money on things I want but if I can’t get access to it, that’s not possible. So what’s worse, keeping a skin exclusive (or limited) for a +year, giving those few players (that whole class divide there) that satisfaction of having something others don’t and simply not making that sale to those that missed out or releasing those skins more often after a period (6months or so after initial release), limiting that “you don’t have it!” satisfaction to 6 or so months then releasing those skins on a more timely schedule to get those sales to those that missed out?

GrandHaven.1052:

So now people are complaining about the B2P model?

Where are the days when it was the best thing since sliced bread.

Entitlement is just too much with some people..

A true B2P model is really good but you cant really consider GW2 like that at this point. Not from a commercial viewpoint at least. Anet does not make most of it’s money by selling the game (and expansions) like w true B2P game, it makes most of the money with the cash-shop. With other words, for income they do not focus on expansions but focus on the cash-shop. Meaning it’s more of a cash-shop game, that is basically what any F2P game is, what is again what OP refers to.

Also it;s not so much about willing to pay, more willing to pay for what? I am fine with buying an expansion every year that gives me more game and then lets me hunt cosmetics in the world. But I am not spending a single dime on gems, a system that turns cosmetic hunt into a grind.

Leo G.4501:

Behellagh.1468:

Really? That’s your retort. It’s unfair for players who can’t play (login) over players who can?

Well that’s the way the cookie crumbles. Can’t log in for a LS 1 chapter, you missed it. Can’t log in when a LS 2 chapter was introduced, you now have to buy it. Can’t log in during the multiple week Halloween or Wintersday event, you miss out on the items you could get when they were going on. Weekend sale at the Gem Shop, oh well.

Really? That’s your retort. Make up a bunch of strawman arguments to instill some sort of bad sentiment in what my opinion brings forth?

Notice I mentioned multiple times in past posts that in-game events are a different ballgame. That includes LS1, Halloween, Wintersday, etc.

Gem store items are NOT in-game events. So why do I need to even log in to purchase them at all? Or to know they are there (or not there, as the case may be)? I even specifically said, if it was an in-game event, seasonal or otherwise, missing out on that is the reward for people that log in to play it. Locking out gem store skins that only sell on the gem store and doing so for long periods of time isn’t even close to the examples you mentioned. At least with a lot of those mentioned events (and their related skins) they can be obtain outside of that event. You tell me how that relates somehow.

That all said, and not even bothering to quote the other misguided parts of your post, I get the strong feeling you’re just trying to be contrary rather than being constructive at all. I think I’ll forego replying to anything else you’ve got to say. It’ll save both of us a lot of effort.

What exactly are you asking for here because to me your story keeps changing everytime I call you out. Are you asking for an out of game interface to the Gem Shop? Are you asking for a cash exclusive store featuring all items? Items to be always available? A published schedule of when items are returning?

Others besides me have tried to explain the reasoning behind pulling and reintroducing items with no warning and the benefit that is to ANet’s income. You seem to not accept that reasoning. Heck you even called loging in a “grind” to check the gem shop.

You aren’t going to get whatever you are asking for. It’s not in ANet’s best interest of driving cash purchases of Gems. They’ve decided they can do without your money, you being players who for whatever reason play infrequently or have large gaps between active periods of loging into the game.

Sorry, no skins for you.

EazyPanda.6419:

~snip~

Though this will undoubtedly kitten up the gold to gem conversion rate, and a lot more problems will undoubtedly spring up, and GW2 may be accused to being a lot more Pay-To-Win (at least win in terms of fashion sense), but we can deal with that later.

This is likely the case. I wouldn’t be against such a change. At least then it’d be obtainable. I think the rarity of the skin will partially remain in tact but like you said, doing so would likely kitten up the economy. I’m not discounting such a suggestion but I tend to stay away from suggestions that have effects I’m completely unfamiliar with and the effects this might have on the economy are unknown to me. All I can say is, it’s probably the reason they don’t just sell the Halloween skins in the gem store.

EazyPanda.6419:

Of course, after a while, the prices of gems will be way too high to justify buying gems with gold, and people will have to start buying gems with cash to get gem-store items.
See the problem?

Well firstly, I think that already is a problem. Most don’t bother or if they do, it’s a long-term goal, not something they desperately do at the last second. Of course, that is my opinion because that’s what I do. I still have loads of things I need to buy with gems but I always keep at least 500 gems around just in case something releases unexpectedly. The likelyhood they’d release multiple must-haves is unlikely (lol they rotate stuff so slow too). It’s not unreasonable to think people try to keep some gems on hand outside of their gold reserves.

That said, people hoarding gems would likely have the reverse effect over time (that is, I doubt hoarding gems will make exchange rate spike). When things release temporarily, those that save up and prepared shouldn’t feel pressured and the people that didn’t shouldn’t be punished (I mean they’re there to log in and buy it, what more do you want?).

Now if you feel the tactic used is profitable, fine. But is it good? That goes into the territory of nickle-and-diming people that the OP mentions. So now not only do I have to log in to get the reward, but deal with a huge rush to convert currencies, likely spending even more gold than necessary or just outright buying it if I can’t.

By then GW2’s gem store will be pretty much inaccessible to those who don’t have the money to buy gems with cash.

Slippery slope there, guy. We don’t even know if the previous accusations would occur. The conversion system exists to help relegate so if gold>gem rates are too high, people will begin doing the reverse.

MrWubzy.3587:

shaman.1938:

MrWubzy.3587:

EazyPanda.6419:

-Snipped for length!-

-Snip again!-

snap

IF you want to be handed everything an MMO really isn’t the place and a first person shooter is definitely a better game for you ..

myself I am hoping for a game more in line with the old eq that DOES take a long time to level up so you can feel actual growth in the character instead of ending up feeling like a “cheap one night stand”… sadly I also know this won’t happen as the gaming companies are all after “big money” which means making it appeal to the players like myself who want a challenge and a game the lasts a long time and the more casual players who might only play for 2 to 3 hours through the week and then a bit more on the weekends .. because of the second group of players those like myself have suffered since 3 or 4 years into EQ 1 so about 16+ years

I was referring to grinding levels in Final Fantasy IV, not MMOs. And the mention of having to level to 80 to do Living World was just a sort of flame shield to prevent those claiming that we have to ‘grind’ levels in GW2, sorry if it wasn’t clear. I have no issues with GW2 in terms of farming or leveling process, I was just agreeing with EazyPanda’s post and attempting to define grind myself.

Irony is when someone says you get everything handed to you in an FPS game. smh apparently someone’s not played any since Battlefield 4. So many things wrong with that statement where to begin….

The problem isn’t that people have to earn their way that’s not an issue at all, because every game has that design. The problem with GW2 is you don’t earn your way from participation you get it from luck. Luck as you well know doesn’t always strike and when you have a game designed specifically to nullify luck, as this game has, with their DR system, then you don’t get anything. People have been complaining about the serious lack of drops in this game for years now, how it’s gone too far when they tried to do things so differently that they are actually scaring away players because people play games for one major psychological reason, to feel a sense of reward/accomplishment. That’s the reason. The games in which there have been 0 restrictions on loot have been the most critically acclaimed games of our time by regular players outside of what our media has said about them.

Take Eve for example, 0 restrictions, you can even go so far as to sell in game goods for real money and it’s been thriving with a growing community for years now.

This game is a grind not because people have to work to get their items far from it, it’s a grind because it’s not an even playing field. If player A has a lucky account and player B has an unlucky account and they run the same dungeon, just as the players reports have stated when they’ve noticed this exact thing in this game, and player A comes out with almost all of the top notch loot every single week, there’s a problem with the design.

Using the logical fallacy argument that it’s not a grind because people have to earn their way in a game that doesn’t have a earn-your-way-reward system isn’t going to change the current problem and neither is changing the definition of grind.

Archeage is a great example of how restrict without the grind. It too has RNG but it doesn’t have DR why? Because they made it so that the only thing to restrict players is labor points. If you don’t have enough points you can’t open your loot. I have to say it’s a far better system then completely cutting people off from their rewards, and you have to understand that I hate AA’s billing model hand and foot but at least you get your drops.

Leo G.4501:

Gem store items are NOT in-game events.

Actually sales are events… Pretty sure they have special names these days (heard Super Monday, Black Friday etc over Christmas to say the least). You can say YOU don’t see them as events BUT the world of business does and Anet is a business. If you’re going away for an extended period ask a friend or family member to check for you.

Coulter.2315:

Leo G.4501:

Gem store items are NOT in-game events.

Actually sales are events… Pretty sure they have special names these days (heard Super Monday, Black Friday etc over Christmas to say the least). You can say YOU don’t see them as events BUT the world of business does and Anet is a business. If you’re going away for an extended period ask a friend or family member to check for you.

Well I did say in-game event. Anything could be considered an event, including you posting your reply and me replying to your reply are events. When I say in-game event, I mean something linked to the game world thus reintroducing it willy-nilly not making sense.

Most gem-store sales I wouldn’t consider in-game events, as most sales, skins, toys and outfits more likely break immersion than actually enhance it.

But all that aside, I’m doing exactly that (telling a friend to keep tabs when I’m away and me doing the same for him) but that still doesn’t make those skins appear in the gem store to buy.

And all that aside, you don’t find it a slight bit of a reach to need to go to such lengths just to get skins in an online game? How many hoops is too much for you? I can be a pretty lenient guy but I know unnecessary hoops when I see them.

So, OP is in a Buy-to-Play game as opposed to a Buy-The-Game-Pay-A-Monthly-Subscription-to-Play game, and he’s complaining about the grind or a cash shop?

I rarely proclaim this, but entitled much? You paid a one-time fee to play the game, the original game box/download buy in. No subscription fee (never mind a subscription fee WITH a cash shop, as is become common in the industry as well), and you’re complaining because some things are a grind, or you spend some cash in the shop?

Seriously?

1) MMOs have a grind. Get used to it, or might I suggest a non-MMO game.

2) Pretty much every MMO out there, F2P or subscription based, has a cash shop now where cosmetics are sold (and in many F2P games, real gear as well). GW2 has a very generous model. So, yes, if you want those super nice or rare cosmetics, you will grind them or buy them. That’s pretty much the MMO model. If that doesn’t work for you, than sadly the MMO style game is probably not for you.

The only skins that have “hoops” are BLC ticket ones.

The others do come back around eventually. The ones you listed a few posts back I’m pretty sure I picked up on their second, or later, time around and not when they were introduced alongside the Living Story chapter patch that first put them in the gem shop.

Braham’s skins came out during the Queen’s Jubilee while Belinda’s came out during the time between Chapter 4 of the 2nd Living Story and the 2nd Feature Pack about a year after Braham’s skins were first introduced. However Belinda’s sword was introduced before then so the skin didn’t simply drop out of the sky.

Honestly, this game handles skin/item rotations and availability very poorly. SWTOR is horribly managed at this point in terms of general content development, dev support with bugs, and other issues, but they are cleaning up with their cash shop, and I can guarantee that if you log on there now 98% of items that have ever been in their Cartel Market are either currently available or will be back in rotation within the next few months. Furthermore, because players can buy excess of said items or get them via RNG-gambling boxes—which sell like crazy in all games for whatever reason—and sell them to other players on the game’s equivalent of the TP, highly-sought after items are profitable to EAWare at release, profitable to players wanting to make in-game currency off of them, and allow players who weren’t in the game at the time of release to still get them. SWTOR manages to get not only $15 a month out of its subscribers, but said subs are the major purchasers of the Cartel Market coins that pushed that game to two $100M+ years in a row despite an outdated game engine and numerous other troubles.

Guild Wars 2 is relatively shallow when it comes to what to do once you hit 80. As I was leveling my first characters I bought things that would make the experience more fun and more my own. There were many items that I would have loved to have but because of the slow as molasses or non-existent re-release schedule for some items they couldn’t be had. That’s real money missed out on for Anet.

I just started a new MMO about two weeks ago and have already dropped about $50 in the cash shop because they have a much better overall skin system. It’s not perfect, but I found a better selection of items that I wanted and I didn’t have to continually PvP grind, map complete, or spend real money to maintain that look as I leveled. The majority of their skins also remain available at all times. Maintaining the same look as you level in this game is utterly painful as a new player if you don’t take breaks to allow daily trans rewards to accumulate, PvP—a grind if you don’t enjoy it here, which I don’t—or throw real money at the game to continue buying charges.

This has really devolved into another topic entirely, but bottom line is that Anet sees huge spike with the way that they handle the release and removal of certain items, but they are not seeing the continual payouts that they would if they handled the cash shop better. F2P games see faster roll out of content and cosmetics than we’re getting here currently, and higher dollars earned at the end of the year. There’s no way this game’s cash shop is doing as well as it could be if it had more items available.

This seems to have gotten long winded, but I agree with the OP, the transmute charges suck. I always just make a new toon and explore the cities each time I want a new look. Sometimes I go on a pvp bender but it’s mostly city exploring and I don’t really think that’s the point of the game…

GW2 is not at all grindy…..its not pay to win either. You can play the game once a week and still be on par with everyone gearwise. If you find this game grindy, what will you do elsewhere where is way way worse o.O

But of course it is “Pay to look pretty”

Legendaries and such are meant to be grindy….if they are not grindy they won’t be legendary……..

Prototypemind.4026:

Honestly, this game handles skin/item rotations and availability very poorly. SWTOR is horribly managed at this point in terms of general content development, dev support with bugs, and other issues, but they are cleaning up with their cash shop, and I can guarantee that if you log on there now 98% of items that have ever been in their Cartel Market are either currently available or will be back in rotation within the next few months. Furthermore, because players can buy excess of said items or get them via RNG-gambling boxes—which sell like crazy in all games for whatever reason—and sell them to other players on the game’s equivalent of the TP, highly-sought after items are profitable to EAWare at release, profitable to players wanting to make in-game currency off of them, and allow players who weren’t in the game at the time of release to still get them. SWTOR manages to get not only $15 a month out of its subscribers, but said subs are the major purchasers of the Cartel Market coins that pushed that game to two $100M+ years in a row despite an outdated game engine and numerous other troubles.

Guild Wars 2 is relatively shallow when it comes to what to do once you hit 80. As I was leveling my first characters I bought things that would make the experience more fun and more my own. There were many items that I would have loved to have but because of the slow as molasses or non-existent re-release schedule for some items they couldn’t be had. That’s real money missed out on for Anet.

I just started a new MMO about two weeks ago and have already dropped about $50 in the cash shop because they have a much better overall skin system. It’s not perfect, but I found a better selection of items that I wanted and I didn’t have to continually PvP grind, map complete, or spend real money to maintain that look as I leveled. The majority of their skins also remain available at all times. Maintaining the same look as you level in this game is utterly painful as a new player if you don’t take breaks to allow daily trans rewards to accumulate, PvP—a grind if you don’t enjoy it here, which I don’t—or throw real money at the game to continue buying charges.

This has really devolved into another topic entirely, but bottom line is that Anet sees huge spike with the way that they handle the release and removal of certain items, but they are not seeing the continual payouts that they would if they handled the cash shop better. F2P games see faster roll out of content and cosmetics than we’re getting here currently, and higher dollars earned at the end of the year. There’s no way this game’s cash shop is doing as well as it could be if it had more items available.

I agree that the offerings in the Gem Shop could be better. However, the moment they add more and more to it, then you have people like the OP who will endlessly continue complaining because:

1) There’s all those items in the Cash Shop requiring money

and/or

2) Getting them at no cost in the game requires too much time and repetition.

DrMcAwEsOmE.2839:

So, OP is in a Buy-to-Play game as opposed to a Buy-The-Game-Pay-A-Monthly-Subscription-to-Play game, and he’s complaining about the grind or a cash shop?

I rarely proclaim this, but entitled much? You paid a one-time fee to play the game, the original game box/download buy in. No subscription fee (never mind a subscription fee WITH a cash shop, as is become common in the industry as well), and you’re complaining because some things are a grind, or you spend some cash in the shop?

Seriously?

1) MMOs have a grind. Get used to it, or might I suggest a non-MMO game.

2) Pretty much every MMO out there, F2P or subscription based, has a cash shop now where cosmetics are sold (and in many F2P games, real gear as well). GW2 has a very generous model. So, yes, if you want those super nice or rare cosmetics, you will grind them or buy them. That’s pretty much the MMO model. If that doesn’t work for you, than sadly the MMO style game is probably not for you.

He is in a game sold as B2P, not in a game sold as F2P but complains that the system feels to much like a F2P what is in fact true as at this moment GW2 generates most money from the cash-shop like F2P games do, not from game sales (including expansions) like true B2P games do.

Yes many games have cash-shops, B2P, F2P and P2P but usually there is a big difference and that is in how they focus on it for generating income. If they focus on it (like F2P games do as that is there only source of income) you can expect much more items in there and way less in the game, while with a true B2P game or a P2P game you would expect less focus on it so less items in there and more in the open world.

Mightybird.6034:

and by that I mean the nickle and diming grindy feel whenever you want to change your character’s appearance or have more than character 5 slots or more bank slots or….etc. Like I paid 50+ USD $ for it when it originally came out. Played since day 1. I’ve got like two, TWO pieces of cosmetics I’ve unlocked (like the special ones you can apply for free) . Seriously? There are f2p games with more cosmetic options for less time spent.

Sure there are random loot crap unlocks. I’m talking about looks you’d actually want on your character. I know the token thingys arent too hard to grind but they’re still a grind. for a paid model I should be able to change my appearance on a whim.

I did not read each and every post so forgive me if this has already been stated but having features that users pay for allows the game, and most of its content, to remain free. There is a sizable player population and the game gets consistent updates, promotions, and monthly events and these cost money. The alternative would look much like WoWs method of funding its upkeep: a monthly fee. Beyond that, this game allows you to purchase these digital extras by converting in game currency into gems, the same gems you can buy with actual cash. This adds real value to the in game currency, gold, silver, and copper, ergo you are getting merchandise for free by converting it. You are being rewarded for playing the game, as if playing a great game wasn’t reward enough.

Endrance.1680:

Mightybird.6034:

and by that I mean the nickle and diming grindy feel whenever you want to change your character’s appearance or have more than character 5 slots or more bank slots or….etc. Like I paid 50+ USD $ for it when it originally came out. Played since day 1. I’ve got like two, TWO pieces of cosmetics I’ve unlocked (like the special ones you can apply for free) . Seriously? There are f2p games with more cosmetic options for less time spent.

Sure there are random loot crap unlocks. I’m talking about looks you’d actually want on your character. I know the token thingys arent too hard to grind but they’re still a grind. for a paid model I should be able to change my appearance on a whim.

I did not read each and every post so forgive me if this has already been stated but having features that users pay for allows the game, and most of its content, to remain free. There is a sizable player population and the game gets consistent updates, promotions, and monthly events and these cost money. The alternative would look much like WoWs method of funding its upkeep: a monthly fee. Beyond that, this game allows you to purchase these digital extras by converting in game currency into gems, the same gems you can buy with actual cash. This adds real value to the in game currency, gold, silver, and copper, ergo you are getting merchandise for free by converting it. You are being rewarded for playing the game, as if playing a great game wasn’t reward enough.

Another alternative would be selling more regular expansions (like once a year), then the items can be in the game-world and so part of the game while not having the grind. In a way they are now selling a way out of the grind. So it’s not like this is it and the only other option is a P2P model.

What you are saying is pretty much, I settle for these negatives to not have the P2P negatives what is a choice but any F2P game out there can offer that what is exactly what OP is saying.

Devata.6589:

Endrance.1680:

Mightybird.6034:

and by that I mean the nickle and diming grindy feel whenever you want to change your character’s appearance or have more than character 5 slots or more bank slots or….etc. Like I paid 50+ USD $ for it when it originally came out. Played since day 1. I’ve got like two, TWO pieces of cosmetics I’ve unlocked (like the special ones you can apply for free) . Seriously? There are f2p games with more cosmetic options for less time spent.

Sure there are random loot crap unlocks. I’m talking about looks you’d actually want on your character. I know the token thingys arent too hard to grind but they’re still a grind. for a paid model I should be able to change my appearance on a whim.

I did not read each and every post so forgive me if this has already been stated but having features that users pay for allows the game, and most of its content, to remain free. There is a sizable player population and the game gets consistent updates, promotions, and monthly events and these cost money. The alternative would look much like WoWs method of funding its upkeep: a monthly fee. Beyond that, this game allows you to purchase these digital extras by converting in game currency into gems, the same gems you can buy with actual cash. This adds real value to the in game currency, gold, silver, and copper, ergo you are getting merchandise for free by converting it. You are being rewarded for playing the game, as if playing a great game wasn’t reward enough.

Another alternative would be selling more regular expansions (like once a year), then the items can be in the game-world and so part of the game while not having the grind. In a way they are now selling a way out of the grind. So it’s not like this is it and the only other option is a P2P model.

What you are saying is pretty much, I settle for these negatives to not have the P2P negatives what is a choice but any F2P game out there can offer that what is exactly what OP is saying.

I don’t view the current system of things as a negative. I am tracking regarding what the OP is saying and the frustration is understandable but it’s not something I can commiserate with. Releasing expansions is great and it does bring in funds, absolutely, but releasing an expansion once a year does not guarantee stability for the game itself. It also creates deadlines and that often comes with rushed coding. If they were to schedule expansions that way it would mean having an estimate of what the profits would be and only being able to add to and regulate the game based on those profits. It’s a budgeting plan that limits what the developers can do and how much time and money they have to do it with. Building on and improving the game with regular small scale features using funding as it comes in creates a more balanced system and minimizes errors. It’s the same reason the servers don’t go down for updates. In most games, they build one huge update and then the servers go down and you wait while they implement changes. Updates for GW2 are constantly ongoing in the background allowing for sustained user access and smoother implementation.

Endrance.1680:

Devata.6589:

Endrance.1680:

Mightybird.6034:

and by that I mean the nickle and diming grindy feel whenever you want to change your character’s appearance or have more than character 5 slots or more bank slots or….etc. Like I paid 50+ USD $ for it when it originally came out. Played since day 1. I’ve got like two, TWO pieces of cosmetics I’ve unlocked (like the special ones you can apply for free) . Seriously? There are f2p games with more cosmetic options for less time spent.

Sure there are random loot crap unlocks. I’m talking about looks you’d actually want on your character. I know the token thingys arent too hard to grind but they’re still a grind. for a paid model I should be able to change my appearance on a whim.

I did not read each and every post so forgive me if this has already been stated but having features that users pay for allows the game, and most of its content, to remain free. There is a sizable player population and the game gets consistent updates, promotions, and monthly events and these cost money. The alternative would look much like WoWs method of funding its upkeep: a monthly fee. Beyond that, this game allows you to purchase these digital extras by converting in game currency into gems, the same gems you can buy with actual cash. This adds real value to the in game currency, gold, silver, and copper, ergo you are getting merchandise for free by converting it. You are being rewarded for playing the game, as if playing a great game wasn’t reward enough.

Another alternative would be selling more regular expansions (like once a year), then the items can be in the game-world and so part of the game while not having the grind. In a way they are now selling a way out of the grind. So it’s not like this is it and the only other option is a P2P model.

What you are saying is pretty much, I settle for these negatives to not have the P2P negatives what is a choice but any F2P game out there can offer that what is exactly what OP is saying.

I don’t view the current system of things as a negative. I am tracking regarding what the OP is saying and the frustration is understandable but it’s not something I can commiserate with. Releasing expansions is great and it does bring in funds, absolutely, but releasing an expansion once a year does not guarantee stability for the game itself. It also creates deadlines and that often comes with rushed coding. If they were to schedule expansions that way it would mean having an estimate of what the profits would be and only being able to add to and regulate the game based on those profits. It’s a budgeting plan that limits what the developers can do and how much time and money they have to do it with. Building on and improving the game with regular small scale features using funding as it comes in creates a more balanced system and minimizes errors. It’s the same reason the servers don’t go down for updates. In most games, they build one huge update and then the servers go down and you wait while they implement changes. Updates for GW2 are constantly ongoing in the background allowing for sustained user access and smoother implementation.

Current income has also not been stable (has only been going down) and with the current model they wanted to have bi weekly updates so that is even more rushing.

So those two do not improve with the current system.

What somebody likes is personal but when you like hunting down cosmetics then the current system makes that a grind so it’s not strange many people dislike that.

We do live in a society that demands some sort of tangible payout for their time, so I suppose in that sense I can see the cause for concern in the current system; we need to feel that progress has been made and that our time is worthwhile, sooner rather than later. Even people in last place get a trophy for “sportsmanship”. Opinion is the determining factor though, you’re right. Not everyone can be happy all the time though, so OP, I’m sorry for your frustration with the grind. Perhaps with the new update there will be some features available that meet this need for you.

Mightybird.6034:

why does gw2 feel like a grindy f2p?

Because it is.

10€ per character slot (you start with so less you cant even create all classes)

10€ per bank slot (you only just have 1 or 2 bank tabs which is really low for all the random trash you get and need to collect)

And ofcourse the transmutation stones.
A game which is all about skins and you have to pay € to get the transmutations.

This is no flame this are just the facts.

I still play GW2 and like it, but if you compare for example GW1 and GW2 with the shops, the only thing that I bought for GW1 was 1 (ONE) character slot and thats it.

For GW2 I bought like 3-5 char slots, 4 bank tabs etc.

Teniz.5249:

Mightybird.6034:

why does gw2 feel like a grindy f2p?

A game which is all about skins and you have to pay € to get the transmutations.

And has many if not most skins in the cash-shop or behind a currency (mostly gold) grind that you can buy your way out of by buying gold or the item directly.

But then if people complain about that grind it does not count because it are not stats.. according to some people and even according to Anet as Colin stated with there ‘no grind philosophy’ they did not mean the cosmetic grind.

Smart marketing, while it only works for a limited time, until people get bored by the grind.

I love how all those “knowledgable” people bash the one claiming that this game is grindy instead of just once asking why he feels that way. There are indeed multiple reasons why this game could be called grindy, yet you keep bashing him because if you have no problem with the game, then the game obviously has no flaws.
But keep bashing, you’re the reason why this game is going down the road they’ve taken with NPE changes, streamlined content and only support for content that is not even rudimentary challenging (with the great exeption of the triple trouble worm).

Grind means different things to different people, each with their own threshold to when repetitiveness to achieve some goal becomes to them grind.

Someone in another thread said logging in daily was, to them, a grind. To others clearing a map is a grind or farming for keys.

For many I think they feel the need to “grind” for gold because they don’t want to pay for gem shop items. Or they are looking at buying a precursor or shortcut ascended item crafting so they need the gold. They are willing to suffer to achieve their goal rather than loosening their purse strings a tad.

It’s around 10 gold per $1€. Also it’s always 80 gems per $1€ vs around 14 gold for 80 gems.

Behellagh.1468:

Grind means different things to different people, each with their own threshold to when repetitiveness to achieve some goal becomes to them grind.

Someone in another thread said logging in daily was, to them, a grind. To others clearing a map is a grind or farming for keys.

For many I think they feel the need to “grind” for gold because they don’t want to pay for gem shop items. Or they are looking at buying a precursor or shortcut ascended item crafting so they need the gold. They are willing to suffer to achieve their goal rather than loosening their purse strings a tad.

It’s around 10 gold per $1€. Also it’s always 80 gems per $1€ vs around 14 gold for 80 gems.

Or they want to play the game? Buying things is not playing a game. People don’t buy a game to be able to buy more stuff for in it (well, some seem to), but they buy it to play it, especially in a B2P game. But while unlocking such items in-game can be fun game-play in some games, it is a grind in this game.

Maybe you could turn it the other way around. You say people grind because they don’t want to buy, or maybe some buy so they don’t have to play… grind the game. What might explain why they design a game to be grindy?

Devata.6589:

Maybe you could turn it the other way around. You say people grind because they don’t want to buy, or maybe some buy so they don’t have to play… grind the game. What might explain why they design a game to be grindy?

I started a reply earlier in the day about this subject but scrapped it but here it is.

I believe ANet’s reason behind RNG was to eliminate forcing activities onto players. No do X to get Y, as Y can drop from any activity at any time. But that leads to the not getting anything desirable from drops most of the time which forces the player to the TP, whose fees and taxes help keep classical currency inflation under control, to sell the unwanted for coin to buy the wanted from other players.

The Gem Exchange was to provide a means to sell gold, indirectly, for cash while providing a means for players to buy some items from the cash shop, indirectly, with in-game coin. The exchange itself it just that, an exchange as it neither creates gems or coin. Coin is created as a reward from the game, gems are created from actual cash. The exchange rate is determined by the amount of gold and gems flowing in and out of the exchange as well as the amount remaining in the exchange. The exchange also acts as a coin sink which is why it has non-symmetrical exchange rates.

And what developed from those noble intention is a culture where some players feel the need to do a repetitive, undesired activity to, in the end, get what they want. The exchange was never meant for players be able to buy everything they want from the cash shop, indirectly, with their accumulated in-game coin. Nor did they expect players to not understand that very rare means just that. Just because a player bought the game doesn’t mean a modest amount of game play alone will deliver every item they want guaranteed.

And here we are. Oh my oh my this game is so grindy. It’s grindy because players aren’t willing to accept that an MMO is a marathon and not a sprint and trying to sprint a marathon is, well, dumb. Players also can’t be so naive to think a one product company can run on no income and ANet designed the game’s cash shop to not require the use of cash by the majority of players.

You the player don’t want grind, accept Lady Luck as your savior. You the player want that cash shop item, plan to loosen your purse strings or learn to moderate your desires.

Edit: Today I really needed to use readback software.

Behellagh.1468:

Devata.6589:

Maybe you could turn it the other way around. You say people grind because they don’t want to buy, or maybe some buy so they don’t have to play… grind the game. What might explain why they design a game to be grindy?

I started a reply earlier in the day about this subject but scrapped it but here it is.

I believe ANet’s reason behind RNG was to eliminate forcing activities onto players. No do X to get Y, as Y can drop from activity at any time. But that leads to the not getting anything desirable from drops most of the time which forces the player to the TP, whose fees and taxes help keep classical currency inflation under control, to sell the unwanted for coin to buy the wanted from other players who don’t want them.

The Gem Exchange was to provide a means to sell gold, indirectly, for cash while providing a means for players to buy some items from the cash shop, indirectly, with in-game coin. The exchange itself it just that, an exchange as it neither creates gems or coin. Coin is created as a reward from the game, gems are created from actual cash. The exchange rate is determined by the amount of gold and gems flowing in and out of the exchange as well as the amount remaining in the exchange. The exchange also acts as a coin sink which is why it has non-symmetrical exchange rates.

And what developed from those noble intention is a culture where some players feel the need to do an repetitive, undesired activity to, in the end, get what they want. The exchange was never meant for players be able to buy everything they want from the cash shop, indirectly, with their accumulated in-game coin. Nor did they expect players to not understand that very rare means just that. Just because a player bought the game doesn’t mean a modest amount of game play alone will deliver every item they want guaranteed.

And here we are. Oh my oh my this game is so grindy. It’s grindy because players aren’t willing to accept that an MMO is a marathon and not a sprint and trying to sprint a marathon is, well, dumb. Players can’t be so naive to think a one product company can run on no income and ANet designed the game’s cash shop to not require the use of cash by the majority of players.

You the player don’t want grind, accept Lady Luck as your savior. You the player want that cash shop item, plan to loosen your purse strings or learn to moderate your desires.

I kinda agree with your argument, but what Anet failed to do was developing fun content, it there were loads of fun content ppl would spend more of their times playing this content than grinding money, they would have less money and prolly spend more real money in the game, and the fact that the game is actually fun makes ppl more willing the spend money in the game.

But Anet seems to be fine with things the way they are, they been running this model for almost three years, so it must be working out for them, pretty well, i should say.

The fundamental problem with MMOs is that the players burn through content quicker than it can be made and released. I find dynamic events still fun after all these years. And I tend to hang around only on three low level maps. And I’m putting in maybe 10 to 20 hours a week if that. Call me odd but I like doing DEs while strip mining maps of their mats unless I’m rushed for time.

I’m not tired of Maw for instance. It’s comfortable and it’s fun seeing all those players in one place. It’s as fun as riding on a same local rollercoaster for the 20th time. It’s old hat but I still enjoy it, well the screams of my fellow passengers.

Hmm, maybe I should roll an Asura next then.

Endrance.1680:

Behellagh.1468:

The fundamental problem with MMOs is that the players burn through content quicker than it can be made and released. I find dynamic events still fun after all these years. And I tend to hang around only on three low level maps. And I’m putting in maybe 10 to 20 hours a week if that. Call me odd but I like doing DEs while strip mining maps of their mats unless I’m rushed for time.

I’m not tired of Maw for instance. It’s comfortable and it’s fun seeing all those players in one place. It’s as fun as riding on a same local rollercoaster for the 20th time. It’s old hat but I still enjoy it, well the screams of my fellow passengers.

Hmm, maybe I should roll an Asura next then.

Agree entirely with your post here. I’ve been playing GW since Prophecies and have run with ANet ever since. That isn’t to say I have not had issues with specific aspects, however the game as it is works wonderfully for me. The Maw isn’t boring, I still enjoy fighting Claw of Jormag, just as much I still enjoy running my toon through low level areas and stripping mats from an entire map. The often described tedious process of crafting a Legendary, which I’ve done, as well as crafting ascended gear is really satisfying. I mentioned this in a previous post but what it comes down to is instant gratification. Society today demands results without expecting too much work, there is a sense of entitlement. ANet runs things the way they do because it does work and as much as people may complain they still log in everyday. Not everyone is going to be happy and that is all there is to it. Some of you may say, “Well it’s players that think like that who will ruin this game, this is why people leave”. The reality is that this game is not for everyone and some people should leave. I don’t mean that to be harsh or even offensive, but for those seeking an experience that is, as the last poster described, more of a sprint with quicker results then a different game may be the answer.

Behellagh.1468:

~
I believe ANet’s reason behind RNG was to eliminate forcing activities onto players. No do X to get Y, as Y can drop from any activity at any time. But that leads to the not getting anything desirable from drops most of the time which forces the player to the TP, whose fees and taxes help keep classical currency inflation under control, to sell the unwanted for coin to buy the wanted from other players.
~snap for space

There can be some truth in what you say.. a system with good intentions that took out bad and players who want rare items to easy.

However is that really the case? When you want people to be able to do many types of content to get the item they desire, you could hold the system of do x for y in place and simply make all items not account-bound. (personally I would prefer many items being account-bound as this adds more value to an item because now it really is a reward for that content. But that is not the point here.)

That way people can work directly towards the items they desire by doing that content and in the cases where that is combined with RNG (what will sometimes need to be the case for replay-ability) you can now keep a more acceptable drop-rate while keeping the same rarity. Make an item drop from many places and you need a way lower drop-rate to keep the same rarity but it also means there is no real direct in-game way to work towards getting them directly other than grinding gold.

So with do x for y means you can have more accessible items, other than grinding their brains out, for players who really want them, while still having the same rarity. But does not mean you don’t allow to grind (do other content) for it.

Now you would have a system that pushes people more into doing different types of content then doing ‘the most optimal gold grind’ as you have now. Because when done right, even when items are not account-bound, going directly for them will always be faster than grinding gold simply because gold price for the item will be based on the time to get it. This is only not true for content people grind anyway for other reasons or that happens to be very popular, in those cases items will still flood the TP making the gold-price drop.

This would also be fun game-play that can keep many people busy for months, while grind is boring content game-play for many that can also keep people busy for months but also burns out people.

Of course there is then also the problem of cash-shop items themselves as they per definition can only be grinded for.

When you have this ‘x for y’ system in place but with items not being account- bound, you do really have best of both worlds from a game-play point of view, but it would pretty much mean a no-go for the cash-shop model as items can’t be in a cash-shop (or only a few) and buying gold would not be as rewarding as now. So that is why I personally do believe the system is not just a good game-play intention that didn’t worked out as they planned, but they designed it to profit the their payment model while probably underestimating the grind it created. But you could be right, maybe their intentions where just good game-play and it happened to be good for their payment-model (for a while at least) while not working out so great from a game-play perspective (for those who dislike the grind).

You are completely right, a company needs to make money. That is also why I usually combine this subject with the talk about the game being sold as B2P and so they should have used a true B2P model where they focus on expansions (much like GW1) by releasing them on a yearly basis. I will not go much further into that now (there are many post you can read back from me, where I do) as it will then become a discussion about that model and what model would earn more, on what I show numbers to indicate expansion based model (B2P) might in fact earn more on what other people say you can’t say that for sure (what is true, as long as we don’t life in the parallel universe we only have the numbers to go by, but we will never know for sure how it would have worked out), and then Anet closes the thread for being off-topic. While obviously it isn’t because the two subjects are simply related, that’s also why you mention it.

But I can say, for me, I got interested in GW2 and not in the many F2P out there partly because of this. Those F2P games all have this grind and with a B2P game you would expect it not to be there, however GW2’s model is now very comparable with a F2P model for a commercial viewpoint at least focusing mainly on the cash-shop.

So yes they have to make money, but that does not mean there are no other ways to do that, there are, and so that by itself is not a very good excuse for the grind. It might be the reason, or it might be as you suggest, a design with good intention gone bad (for those who dislike grind) but it’s not a good excuse.

Endrance.1680:

Behellagh.1468:

The fundamental problem with MMOs is that the players burn through content quicker than it can be made and released. I find dynamic events still fun after all these years. And I tend to hang around only on three low level maps. And I’m putting in maybe 10 to 20 hours a week if that. Call me odd but I like doing DEs while strip mining maps of their mats unless I’m rushed for time.

I’m not tired of Maw for instance. It’s comfortable and it’s fun seeing all those players in one place. It’s as fun as riding on a same local rollercoaster for the 20th time. It’s old hat but I still enjoy it, well the screams of my fellow passengers.

Hmm, maybe I should roll an Asura next then.

Agree entirely with your post here. I’ve been playing GW since Prophecies and have run with ANet ever since. That isn’t to say I have not had issues with specific aspects, however the game as it is works wonderfully for me. The Maw isn’t boring, I still enjoy fighting Claw of Jormag, just as much I still enjoy running my toon through low level areas and stripping mats from an entire map. The often described tedious process of crafting a Legendary, which I’ve done, as well as crafting ascended gear is really satisfying. I mentioned this in a previous post but what it comes down to is instant gratification. Society today demands results without expecting too much work, there is a sense of entitlement. ANet runs things the way they do because it does work and as much as people may complain they still log in everyday. Not everyone is going to be happy and that is all there is to it. Some of you may say, “Well it’s players that think like that who will ruin this game, this is why people leave”. The reality is that this game is not for everyone and some people should leave. I don’t mean that to be harsh or even offensive, but for those seeking an experience that is, as the last poster described, more of a sprint with quicker results then a different game may be the answer.

Obviously there are people who like it, there is no denying that. There are still elements of the game I like, while cosmetic hunt is something I usually love in MMO’s and not even a little in GW2. Also there simply are people who like to grind.

That however does not mean it is not a problem and that is can be dismissed. A trend of this model is that it works well in the beginning, people are more willing to spend money on the cash-shop, but in the longer run it means people burn out. I did warn for this trend ever since I notice this was the road Anet was talking, half a year after release. Income has only been decreasing ever since.

For a company, like NCsoft that might not be a problem, they cash the money and move on to the next game. Longevity is not per definition something a company like that is after, while it should and is something Anet is after (also proven by them going for HoT after the, LS instead of expansion approach, did not work out).

Also look at the number of threads in the first 3 pages that are directly or indirectly about the grind. It clearly shows there is a problem. So why I completely accept the game is working for people, including you, it does not mean this is not an issue that should be tried to solved.

“I mentioned this in a previous post but what it comes down to is instant gratification. Society today demands results without expecting too much work” This is however a you see a lot in the grind threads but is a completely unreasonable argument that really tries to dismiss it by naming people lazy. Sure there are people who want everything for nothing now! But that is not true for the vast majority of those complaining about grind. In fact, grind might not be the fastest way to get to a goal but it for sure is one of the most simplistic ones.

Many simply want other not so brainless ways of getting it. Reward for (challenging) content instead of reward for grinding. Liadri is not for nothing an example you see being mentioned a lot in these threads. Now is Liadri an example of result without much work? While I must agree.. a game should not feel like work, it does not main everything should be accessible easy and fast. Most of those complaining about grind are not asking for everything for nothing now!.