Guild Wars 2

lordkrall.7241:

Torolan.5816:

After reading stuff like this: Are you still excited about raids, casual player community? Ready to add work after coming from actual work? Exciting times!^^

Why does everything have to be doable by everyone?

Maybe because it is a game and not the olympics?
Maybe because Anet needs many people to play GW2 and buy items in their shop, not a wasteland with a few really skilled people?
Maybe because it is fair?
Maybe because second class players are first unhappy and then former players?

But just go on with that arguments please. It argues much better for my points than I ever could.

Torolan.5816:

Maybe because it is a game and not the olympics?

Mainly this. It’s a game, not a job.

Torolan.5816:

Maybe because it is a game and not the olympics?
Maybe because Anet needs many people to play GW2 and buy items in their shop, not a wasteland with a few really skilled people?
Maybe because it is fair?
Maybe because second class players are first unhappy and then former players?

But just go on with that arguments please. It argues much better for my points than I ever could.

So because about 1% of the game is too hard for some people to do the game suddenly turns from a game to the olympics?

Raids is a single VERY minor part of the game. The vast majority of the content will still be fully possible to do for everyone.

Fair? So someone that plays for 10 minutes a day should have the exact same things as someone that plays 10 hours a day? Why should anyone bother playing any more than 10 minutes a day if everything could just be done and accessed with that time?

Torolan.5816:

lordkrall.7241:

Torolan.5816:

After reading stuff like this: Are you still excited about raids, casual player community? Ready to add work after coming from actual work? Exciting times!^^

Why does everything have to be doable by everyone?

Maybe because it is a game and not the olympics?
Maybe because Anet needs many people to play GW2 and buy items in their shop, not a wasteland with a few really skilled people?
Maybe because it is fair?
Maybe because second class players are first unhappy and then former players?

But just go on with that arguments please. It argues much better for my points than I ever could.

Did you miss the part where they said raids are highly unlikely to be PUG content?

The vast majority of content current and future is highly accessible, and soloable!

Adding raids is literally there to retain players that want just a little bit of challenge in an otherwise narratively interesting but mostly easy game.

Unlike games where raids pay out a constant snowball of mechanically superior gear, not raiding in GW2 doesn’t make you a second class citizen. Your character will be just as good without raiding.

It is literally a “best of both worlds” situation.

They have to balance encounters around Ascended gear, otherwise it would be too easy for those with the gear. That being said, “required” is a strong word, I have no doubt you’ll be able to do any boss with a mix of Exotic and Ascended gear if your group is good enough, being full Ascended may be more of a crutch for less skilled players.

And if Ascended gear is dropping from the early bosses it won’t take long for your group to gear up, you may just need to farm the early bosses for awhile before taking on the last one which isn’t abnormal.

I think you guys are blowing this way out of proportion here.
We are talking about Anet for crying out loud. When it comes down to beating fights and min/maxing, I think guilds like rT, SC, KING, vC will do a better job than Anet.

Terra.8571:

Turamarth.3248:

Nike.2631:

They’re increasing the spread between Exotic and Ascended stats to 10% with HoT. Anyone who thought “Challenging Content” meant it would be designed so you can do it comfortably while missing the top 10% of available effectiveness was fooling themselves.

Source?

There is no source (and that Nike isn’t the DnT Nike just incase you got confused). Last official word was stat difference is staying at 5%.

Anyways, I can’t see why so many people are surprised. They said the hardest endgame content in PvE will be raids. The explicitly said it will be harder than fractals and dungeons. We all know fractals 100 is coming and so this was going to be harder.

Even though fractals require agony, the encounter’s are all based off players having ascended stats. Also, probably only 10% of the player base have actually done fractal 50’s. These raids to me, and AN as well, always seemed the next step up.

Whether or not ascended is mandatory (i.e. there will be masteries which increase damage/ decrease damage), we’ll have to see. But simply basing the encounter’s so that the bosses/ mobs do damage against players assuming they had the BiS gear available, for the hardest content in game, seems logical.

Harder doesn’t automatically mean it should require another tier of gear, that’s a cheap freaking cop-out method of making content harder.
It’s entirely possible to balance the content around exotics and still make it good challenging content.

By using a lame, but standard wow-fare, gear check instead of using actual mechanics they significantly undermine the actual challenge of the content.
Just hearing them say that I’ve lost most of my hope for what the raids could have been.

Can’t say I’m terribly surprised, we’ve seen for years the only way they know how to make stuff “harder” is giving mobs more HP and making them hit harder (i.e. artificial difficulty).

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Torolan.5816:

Maybe because it is a game and not the olympics?

Mainly this. It’s a game, not a job.

I think too many people forget this. Probably because many play the game 40+ hours a week like it is a job.

sigh

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I think too many people forget this. Probably because many play the game 40+ hours a week like it is a job.

sigh

So, why not give everyone everything for just simply logging in then?
It is not a job after all, thus everyone should just get everything from the start, right?

lordkrall.7241:

Raids is a single VERY minor part of the game. The vast majority of the content will still be fully possible to do for everyone.

Fair? So someone that plays for 10 minutes a day should have the exact same things as someone that plays 10 hours a day? Why should anyone bother playing any more than 10 minutes a day if everything could just be done and accessed with that time?

I love this thread. I REALLY do.

It reminds me of the early days of WoW. The elitism, the entitlement, all is back.

I love how this tweet gave the Manifesto the last final blow, here we go, sorry 99%, you are too casual for this content.

If you did not grind your back off, or you are a newer player, god forbid you rolled a new character or own the wrong armor stats, you are too casual.

This thread shows the rapid decline of the forums and this will happen in the community ingame too with raids being the new shiny thing.

I hope I have enough popcorn for all the drama – well played ANet.

I don’t get the big deal with raids requiring ascended gear or even having multiple gear sets that you switch out during the raid.

People have had two and a half years to get ascended gear. The only people that don’t have them are the people that complained about it and never started working on it and those that are new to the game.

The people that didn’t complain and started working on getting them, after 2.5 years, likely have every single toon geared head to toe in ascendeds with leftovers in the bank.
I personally have gear sets for all 8 toons and have enough mats/gear in the bank to equip 3 more toons if required.

It isn’t like this stuff is out of reach for anyone. It is actually really easy to get, but just takes time.

This is why they wanted to buff ascended gear, to make the gap more obvious. Expect to see raid specific infusions to actually make it a requirement.

This won’t end well!

ScribeTheMad.7614:

Terra.8571:

Turamarth.3248:

Nike.2631:

They’re increasing the spread between Exotic and Ascended stats to 10% with HoT. Anyone who thought “Challenging Content” meant it would be designed so you can do it comfortably while missing the top 10% of available effectiveness was fooling themselves.

Source?

There is no source (and that Nike isn’t the DnT Nike just incase you got confused). Last official word was stat difference is staying at 5%.

Anyways, I can’t see why so many people are surprised. They said the hardest endgame content in PvE will be raids. The explicitly said it will be harder than fractals and dungeons. We all know fractals 100 is coming and so this was going to be harder.

Even though fractals require agony, the encounter’s are all based off players having ascended stats. Also, probably only 10% of the player base have actually done fractal 50’s. These raids to me, and AN as well, always seemed the next step up.

Whether or not ascended is mandatory (i.e. there will be masteries which increase damage/ decrease damage), we’ll have to see. But simply basing the encounter’s so that the bosses/ mobs do damage against players assuming they had the BiS gear available, for the hardest content in game, seems logical.

Harder doesn’t automatically mean it should require another tier of gear, that’s a cheap freaking cop-out method of making content harder.
It’s entirely possible to balance the content around exotics and still make it good challenging content.

By using a lame, but standard wow-fare, gear check instead of using actual mechanics they significantly undermine the actual challenge of the content.
Just hearing them say that I’ve lost most of my hope for what the raids could have been.

Can’t say I’m terribly surprised, we’ve seen for years the only way they know how to make stuff “harder” is giving mobs more HP and making them hit harder (i.e. artificial difficulty).

You’re really overreacting. There is no artificial gear check. You can attempt the content in exotics. You can probably even succeed if you’re good enough. Ascended isn’t becoming more powerful. They’re simply saying “this stuff is hard, you might want to bring the best possible stuff”

lordkrall.7241:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I think too many people forget this. Probably because many play the game 40+ hours a week like it is a job.

sigh

So, why not give everyone everything for just simply logging in then?
It is not a job after all, thus everyone should just get everything from the start, right?

Yes Krall, lets give everyone everything and completely negate the entire reason to play what so ever. /sarcasm

Seriously, no one asked for, or even implied, that. Quit shoving words in other people’s mouths because you can’t comprehend the basic point being made.

lordkrall.7241:

Torolan.5816:

Maybe because it is a game and not the olympics?
Maybe because Anet needs many people to play GW2 and buy items in their shop, not a wasteland with a few really skilled people?
Maybe because it is fair?
Maybe because second class players are first unhappy and then former players?

But just go on with that arguments please. It argues much better for my points than I ever could.

So because about 1% of the game is too hard for some people to do the game suddenly turns from a game to the olympics?

Raids is a single VERY minor part of the game. The vast majority of the content will still be fully possible to do for everyone.

Fair? So someone that plays for 10 minutes a day should have the exact same things as someone that plays 10 hours a day? Why should anyone bother playing any more than 10 minutes a day if everything could just be done and accessed with that time?

Well, basically yes? I can run, shoot a bow, ride a bike and swim, but will never be called into the olympics or even the national respective championship team, so I have not made a career out of either. So why should I continue to play GW2 at all if it is already set in stone that I will never reach the best stuff and content if my time schedule does not change and I personally change from average sportsman to world class athlete?

As you see, this is your argument turned around. Both views are possibly right from a certain angle. The important part is probably how raids will sell, as it is the case with almost everything that is produced by a company.

They shouldn’t announce things like this without also announcing new sources for Ascended mats so that the prices remain stable.

Chobits.2430:

I don’t get the big deal with raids requiring ascended gear or even having multiple gear sets that you switch out during the raid.

People have had two and a half years to get ascended gear. The only people that don’t have them are the people that complained about it and never started working on it and those that are new to the game.

The people that didn’t complain and started working on getting them, after 2.5 years, likely have every single toon geared head to toe in ascendeds with leftovers in the bank.
I personally have gear sets for all 8 toons and have enough mats/gear in the bank to equip 3 more toons if required.

It isn’t like this stuff is out of reach for anyone. It is actually really easy to get, but just takes time.

Many people don’t have it because for 2.5 years we’ve been told and reassured that it was entirely optional outside of high level fractals.

Ohoni.6057:

They shouldn’t announce things like this without also announcing new sources for Ascended mats so that the prices remain stable.

The prices have been pretty stable for quite some time and accurately reflect the current state of supply/demand.

What you mean to say is that you want ANet to announce new sources of mats so the prices drop because you don’t want to have to do any work or spend any money for ascended gear.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Yes Krall, lets give everyone everything and completely negate the entire reason to play what so ever. /sarcasm

Seriously, no one asked for, or even implied, that. Quit shoving words in other people’s mouths because you can’t comprehend the basic point being made.

But, people are complaining about having to “work” a bit do to a minuscule part of the content, wouldn’t that suggest that we should all just get everything for doing whatever we want. Otherwise we have to “work” in order to get it, and that is apparently a big no-no.

People are also ignoring the fact that the reason to play for some people is specifically to get better and complete very hard content?

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

lordkrall.7241:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I think too many people forget this. Probably because many play the game 40+ hours a week like it is a job.

sigh

So, why not give everyone everything for just simply logging in then?
It is not a job after all, thus everyone should just get everything from the start, right?

Yes Krall, lets give everyone everything and completely negate the entire reason to play what so ever. /sarcasm

Seriously, no one asked for, or even implied, that. Quit shoving words in other people’s mouths because you can’t comprehend the basic point being made.

This is exactly what people are asking for/ They want raids to be doable immediately upon hitting level 80 and getting exotic gear. This takes less than 30 hours of playing the game to get to this point.

Do you honestly think someone who just bought the game 2 weeks ago should be able to complete raids? Because the only thing that separates someone who bought the game 2 weeks ago from someone who bought the game 3 years ago is ascended gear, a solid guild, and experience.

It has already been established that the people in this thread think casual players should be able to beat raids, so there goes the experience part. It has already been said they should be able to pug them, so there goes the solid guild, and now people want it to be done in exotic gear.

So yes that is exactly what they are asking for, and it is absurd.

PopeUrban.2578:

You’re really overreacting. There is no artificial gear check. You can attempt the content in exotics. You can probably even succeed if you’re good enough. Ascended isn’t becoming more powerful. They’re simply saying “this stuff is hard, you might want to bring the best possible stuff”

The bolded is my concern. If it is truly balanced around needing ascended gear, then logically speaking, no matter how skilled you actually are you may not be able to finish the content until you re-gear. Which, at that point, the content does become (in a sense) gated content. You cannot do ‘x’ until you have ‘y’ gear, and that’s a problem because they told us they didn’t want to do that. That wasn’t what the game was about.

If they take this stance now, slowly balancing the games progression around having ascended, how long before that touted “optional” tier is no longer optional, hmmm?

Torolan.5816:

lordkrall.7241:

Torolan.5816:

Maybe because it is a game and not the olympics?
Maybe because Anet needs many people to play GW2 and buy items in their shop, not a wasteland with a few really skilled people?
Maybe because it is fair?
Maybe because second class players are first unhappy and then former players?

But just go on with that arguments please. It argues much better for my points than I ever could.

So because about 1% of the game is too hard for some people to do the game suddenly turns from a game to the olympics?

Raids is a single VERY minor part of the game. The vast majority of the content will still be fully possible to do for everyone.

Fair? So someone that plays for 10 minutes a day should have the exact same things as someone that plays 10 hours a day? Why should anyone bother playing any more than 10 minutes a day if everything could just be done and accessed with that time?

Well, basically yes? I can run, shoot a bow, ride a bike and swim, but will never be called into the olympics or even the national respective championship team, so I have not made a career out of either. So why should I continue to play GW2 at all if it is already set in stone that I will never reach the best stuff and content if my time schedule does not change and I personally change from average sportsman to world class athlete?

As you see, this is your argument turned around. Both views are possibly right from a certain angle. The important part is probably how raids will sell, as it is the case with almost everything that is produced by a company.

You, on the other hand, seem to expect that by shooting a bow you should also be admitted to world class archery tournaments, because if you can’t be admitted to those tournaments… then there isn’t any point just shooting targets out back.

So, I mean really, are you shooting that bow because it’s fun, or because you want a gold medal? Sounds to me you’re more worried about the medal than just having fun shooting the bow.

I can ride a horse. I enjoy riding a horse. I also don’t need to ride a horse in the flippin’ kentucky derby to enjoy riding my horse.

ScribeTheMad.7614:

Chobits.2430:

I don’t get the big deal with raids requiring ascended gear or even having multiple gear sets that you switch out during the raid.

People have had two and a half years to get ascended gear. The only people that don’t have them are the people that complained about it and never started working on it and those that are new to the game.

The people that didn’t complain and started working on getting them, after 2.5 years, likely have every single toon geared head to toe in ascendeds with leftovers in the bank.
I personally have gear sets for all 8 toons and have enough mats/gear in the bank to equip 3 more toons if required.

It isn’t like this stuff is out of reach for anyone. It is actually really easy to get, but just takes time.

Many people don’t have it because for 2.5 years we’ve been told and reassured that it was entirely optional outside of high level fractals.

Raids are the new hardcore endgame content. Previously, the hardcore endgame content was Fractals. People doing high level fractals are the hard core players that are going to be raiding and they are geared or have the means to get geared.
I don’t expect people who don’t play hardcore to all suddenly change how their playing and start doing raids.

Torolan.5816:

Well, basically yes? I can run, shoot a bow, ride a bike and swim, but will never be called into the olympics or even the national respective championship team, so I have not made a career out of either. So why should I continue to play GW2 at all if it is already set in stone that I will never reach the best stuff and content if my time schedule does not change and I personally change from average sportsman to world class athlete?

As you see, this is your argument turned around. Both views are possibly right from a certain angle. The important part is probably how raids will sell, as it is the case with almost everything that is produced by a company.

But what about the current content that some people might not be able to do for one reason or another? Should they remove that as well?

So you are basically saying: Because they are adding in a minuscule part of the game that is not specifically catered for you, there is no reason to keep playing? What about the 99% of the game that is not raids? Will they not count? Why should they only ever cater to the very lowest level? Heck, I will probably not be able to do raids (I don’t even have close to full Ascended Gear yet, despite playing more or less daily since release) but that doesn’t mean I am going to rage about them adding it for people that will be able to do it.

No people are saying people should have access to raids and shouldn’t be gear checked on arrival. That is not condusive to a healthy community and is the crux of this thread. Not whether it should be “doable” by all.

SHould only 1% be able to complete it? Possibly, but that’s a % which can grow as people improve their play but the point stands it should only be doable by the best, most skilled, most coordinated. Not by those who repeated a monotonous grind or flashed their credit card to buy gear.

Should someone 2 weeks new be able to complete the raid? If they are good enough, sure why not. I see no issue with that. If people are arguing for non-skilled players to be able to complete the raid just because they own the game….as a non-skilled player I say…no, absolutely not.

lordkrall.7241:

Torolan.5816:

Maybe because it is a game and not the olympics?
Maybe because Anet needs many people to play GW2 and buy items in their shop, not a wasteland with a few really skilled people?
Maybe because it is fair?
Maybe because second class players are first unhappy and then former players?

But just go on with that arguments please. It argues much better for my points than I ever could.

So because about 1% of the game is too hard for some people to do the game suddenly turns from a game to the olympics?

Raids is a single VERY minor part of the game. The vast majority of the content will still be fully possible to do for everyone.

Fair? So someone that plays for 10 minutes a day should have the exact same things as someone that plays 10 hours a day? Why should anyone bother playing any more than 10 minutes a day if everything could just be done and accessed with that time?

Raids aren’t going to be a minor part, they are going to be the endgame. You might as well say that raids were a minor part of WoW, which isn’t a lie considering the amount of leveling content and quests. The real truth of the matter is that by bringing in raids everyone knows that is what they are going to focus on. ArenaNet has consitantly focused on one area at the absolute detriment of others, so it’s understandable that with the new endgame people are worried about not being able to do it. If they can’t what else will they be doing because we already know that if ArenaNet is working on raids then everything else is getting very very minor updates.

Let’s also not forget that GW2 was sold on the idea that they didn’t want to do raids. That it was more casual friendly and you didn’t need to sink a good portion of your life into doing raids. This premise is what attracted a lot of people and now you’re surprised that when raids are being implemented people are complaining? Personally I don’t see this going well for ArenaNet either way. They either design hard raids that very few complete leaving the rest of the playerbase to feel neglected/betrayed then get bored and quit, OR they design fair raids that aren’t super rewarding and thus no one does them and people get bored and quit. They’ve designed themselves into a corner and in order to get out they are going to take some big hits.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

lordkrall.7241:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I think too many people forget this. Probably because many play the game 40+ hours a week like it is a job.

sigh

So, why not give everyone everything for just simply logging in then?
It is not a job after all, thus everyone should just get everything from the start, right?

Yes Krall, lets give everyone everything and completely negate the entire reason to play what so ever. /sarcasm

Seriously, no one asked for, or even implied, that. Quit shoving words in other people’s mouths because you can’t comprehend the basic point being made.

This is exactly what people are asking for/ They want raids to be doable immediately upon hitting level 80 and getting exotic gear. This takes less than 30 hours of playing the game to get to this point.

Do you honestly think someone who just bought the game 2 weeks ago should be able to complete raids? Because the only thing that separates someone who bought the game 2 weeks ago from someone who bought the game 3 years ago is ascended gear, a solid guild, and experience.

It has already been established that the people in this thread think casual players should be able to beat raids, so there goes the experience part. It has already been said they should be able to pug them, so there goes the solid guild, and now people want it to be done in exotic gear.

So yes that is exactly what they are asking for, and it is absurd.

No one is asking to make it easier which is what both you and Krall are implying. Content can be done in a challenging way without requiring an additional tier of gear.

If they have the skill set, why the kitten does it matter when they started playing? Why does it bother you that joe schmoe picked up the game 2 weeks ago can raid because he’s just “good.” This kitten should have nothing to do with whether or not you have GEAR, rather whether or not you have SKILL.

SKILL > TIME!!!!

Ugh talk about lack of creativity.

“How do we make it harder George?”
“Uh… give the boss some one shot hits, up his HP, up his defense, and give them a new tier of gear to chase to compensate a tiny bit”

Please people. This kitten is WoW (and every clone since) all over again.

ANet should not always cater to the lowest common denominator. There is plenty of content for that level of play already. 3 years of anet giving us non-challenging content, has created a player-base where everyone thinks they are entitled to free stuff and rangers have LB4 on Auto Attack.

It’s just the final wing in each raid that “should” have full ascended.

Since it’s not something that is balanced around PUGing, then players will either be friends or in guilds together where players will know or be able to vet skill level or be willing to potentially carry.

As someone who does not have any plans to rush to get full ascended gear, I’m fine with 1 wing out of multiple wings needing full ascended, if I’m still able to get the legendary armor pieces. Since legendary is about being a "jack of all trades – let’s be honest even those who make their own legendaries don’t have to be masters of each aspect of the game – then it shouldn’t require the final boss to get the legendary armor precursor or whatever drops from raids for legendary armor.

~GASP~

You mean end-game content requires end-game gear?

The same end-game gear that is obtainable by everyone without having to farm dungeons/raids?

Man that’s so terrible.

/sarcasm.

Seriously people? It’s end-game content, it should be expected that you’d have end-game gear to match. Everyone can craft ascended gear. Sure it’s time-gated, but it is possible to get. Start working on it if you want to do raids.

ScribeTheMad.7614:

Many people don’t have it because for 2.5 years we’ve been told and reassured that it was entirely optional outside of high level fractals.

This is the single most important fact about this situation.

Vlad Morbius.1759:

ScribeTheMad.7614:

Many people don’t have it because for 2.5 years we’ve been told and reassured that it was entirely optional outside of high level fractals.

This is the single most important fact about this situation.

QFT.

What concerns me is that raids are billed as needing you to tweak your builds for each encounter. I’ve never felt the need for even one set of Ascended until now (I’ve just completed Light armor Ascended for my fractals Mesmer). I have most of the mats on hand to complete either a medium set or a heavy set, damask bolts being the limiting factor. If raids both need Ascended and need you to swap your builds around during the runs, doesn’t that push towards needing multiple Ascended sets of armor and weapons for each alt you want to raid with, lest you be crippled with inflexibility?

I’ve made my Light armor with mesmer fractalling in mind. So it won’t be so handy for reaper raiding, and constant reforging is not feasible, especially as I’ll be filling the armor with AR. I’m pretty sure Scrappers and Druids will want vastly different armor builds.

So if I do get into a raiding group, they’re going to have to be willing to take me in my best attempt at a one-size-fits-all build, with no quick profession swap or even role change even though such swapping is projected as necessary to raid success.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

khani.4786:

~GASP~

You mean end-game content requires end-game gear?

The same end-game gear that is obtainable by everyone without having to farm dungeons/raids?

Man that’s so terrible.

/sarcasm.

Seriously people? It’s end-game content, it should be expected that you’d have end-game gear to match. Everyone can craft ascended gear. Sure it’s time-gated, but it is possible to get. Start working on it if you want to do raids.

Like those few extra % will make a difference.. please.. :P

Then why are people complaining?

(Disclaimer: I don’t have full ascended on all of my characters but I’m going to be working to gear out the ones I want to raid with. It’s not a big deal.)

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

lordkrall.7241:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I think too many people forget this. Probably because many play the game 40+ hours a week like it is a job.

sigh

So, why not give everyone everything for just simply logging in then?
It is not a job after all, thus everyone should just get everything from the start, right?

Yes Krall, lets give everyone everything and completely negate the entire reason to play what so ever. /sarcasm

Seriously, no one asked for, or even implied, that. Quit shoving words in other people’s mouths because you can’t comprehend the basic point being made.

This is exactly what people are asking for/ They want raids to be doable immediately upon hitting level 80 and getting exotic gear. This takes less than 30 hours of playing the game to get to this point.

Do you honestly think someone who just bought the game 2 weeks ago should be able to complete raids? Because the only thing that separates someone who bought the game 2 weeks ago from someone who bought the game 3 years ago is ascended gear, a solid guild, and experience.

It has already been established that the people in this thread think casual players should be able to beat raids, so there goes the experience part. It has already been said they should be able to pug them, so there goes the solid guild, and now people want it to be done in exotic gear.

So yes that is exactly what they are asking for, and it is absurd.

No one is asking to make it easier which is what both you and Krall are implying. Content can be done in a challenging way without requiring an additional tier of gear.

If they have the skill set, why the kitten does it matter when they started playing? Why does it bother you that joe schmoe picked up the game 2 weeks ago can raid because he’s just “good.” This kitten should have nothing to do with whether or not you have GEAR, rather whether or not you have SKILL.

SKILL > TIME!!!!

Ugh talk about lack of creativity.

“How do we make it harder George?”
“Uh… give the boss some one shot hits, up his HP, up his defense, and give them a new tier of gear to chase to compensate a tiny bit”

Please people. This kitten is WoW (and every clone since) all over again.

Skill > time in a FPS

time >> skill in an MMORPG

You seem to be confused about the genre you are playing. You are playing a character. This character gains power by playing longer. The longer you play the more your character progresses and the stronger he/she becomes. You the person behind the keyboard matters much less than the experience your character has.

This is the basis of all RPG’s.

Hey, as long as I get a full set of ascended armor and weapons of my choice while playing through the new open world story line, I am ok with that.

Unfortunately, I do not even know what stat will fit best for my druid, so we will have to wait and see…

PopeUrban.2578:

Torolan.5816:

lordkrall.7241:

Torolan.5816:

Maybe because it is a game and not the olympics?
Maybe because Anet needs many people to play GW2 and buy items in their shop, not a wasteland with a few really skilled people?
Maybe because it is fair?
Maybe because second class players are first unhappy and then former players?

But just go on with that arguments please. It argues much better for my points than I ever could.

So because about 1% of the game is too hard for some people to do the game suddenly turns from a game to the olympics?

Raids is a single VERY minor part of the game. The vast majority of the content will still be fully possible to do for everyone.

Fair? So someone that plays for 10 minutes a day should have the exact same things as someone that plays 10 hours a day? Why should anyone bother playing any more than 10 minutes a day if everything could just be done and accessed with that time?

Well, basically yes? I can run, shoot a bow, ride a bike and swim, but will never be called into the olympics or even the national respective championship team, so I have not made a career out of either. So why should I continue to play GW2 at all if it is already set in stone that I will never reach the best stuff and content if my time schedule does not change and I personally change from average sportsman to world class athlete?

As you see, this is your argument turned around. Both views are possibly right from a certain angle. The important part is probably how raids will sell, as it is the case with almost everything that is produced by a company.

You, on the other hand, seem to expect that by shooting a bow you should also be admitted to world class archery tournaments, because if you can’t be admitted to those tournaments… then there isn’t any point just shooting targets out back.

So, I mean really, are you shooting that bow because it’s fun, or because you want a gold medal? Sounds to me you’re more worried about the medal than just having fun shooting the bow.

I can ride a horse. I enjoy riding a horse. I also don’t need to ride a horse in the flippin’ kentucky derby to enjoy riding my horse.

The funny thing is, I own both world class horses and bows(ascended armor and weapons) right now. I am indeed worried about the medal(legendary armor), and would not touch raids with a pole elsewise.

Now imagine that my position is maybe the majority position, or a large minority, or just a noticeable minority. Why and who would you open that can of worms in the first place? You would open it only if you are sure that raiders are such an overwhelmnig majority that it pays off in the end, or that they are so loud and the luminiation of raids is so high that they can reel in people that were not sure if they wanted to join or not. If you now raise the requirements in term of high quality time gated equpiment, you take the ability of raiders to pull people with them, thereby lowering the chances of the exclusive ccontent even more. Even if people begin to buld more ascended armor, raiders likely don´t want to wait for so long and leave again.

It´s a glorious self bitting system in my eyes.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

PopeUrban.2578:

You’re really overreacting. There is no artificial gear check. You can attempt the content in exotics. You can probably even succeed if you’re good enough. Ascended isn’t becoming more powerful. They’re simply saying “this stuff is hard, you might want to bring the best possible stuff”

The bolded is my concern. If it is truly balanced around needing ascended gear, then logically speaking, no matter how skilled you actually are you may not be able to finish the content until you re-gear. Which, at that point, the content does become (in a sense) gated content. You cannot do ‘x’ until you have ‘y’ gear, and that’s a problem because they told us they didn’t want to do that. That wasn’t what the game was about.

If they take this stance now, slowly balancing the games progression around having ascended, how long before that touted “optional” tier is no longer optional, hmmm?

Lmao, this is the kind of person that wipes without making it past the bosses 1st phase and goes “Clearly this is impossible without Ascended” and makes a rage-filled post on the forums about how ANET lied to me, despite the reason they failed having nothing to do with gear and everything to do with their own skill.

You cannot do Fractal 50 until you have ascended gear. This is already in the game! What are you talking about when you say ‘thats not what the game is about’?

So many people in this thread don’t want to get ascended because it’s a “grind”, don’t want to find a guild or a pre-made team, don’t want to play meta or use proper food/runes because they like the way they play, and don’t even do the “hard” content in the game already because they can’t be bothered – but they want to raid and they don’t want to be excluded?

Can someone please explain that thought process to me?

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

lordkrall.7241:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I think too many people forget this. Probably because many play the game 40+ hours a week like it is a job.

sigh

So, why not give everyone everything for just simply logging in then?
It is not a job after all, thus everyone should just get everything from the start, right?

Yes Krall, lets give everyone everything and completely negate the entire reason to play what so ever. /sarcasm

Seriously, no one asked for, or even implied, that. Quit shoving words in other people’s mouths because you can’t comprehend the basic point being made.

This is exactly what people are asking for/ They want raids to be doable immediately upon hitting level 80 and getting exotic gear. This takes less than 30 hours of playing the game to get to this point.

Do you honestly think someone who just bought the game 2 weeks ago should be able to complete raids? Because the only thing that separates someone who bought the game 2 weeks ago from someone who bought the game 3 years ago is ascended gear, a solid guild, and experience.

It has already been established that the people in this thread think casual players should be able to beat raids, so there goes the experience part. It has already been said they should be able to pug them, so there goes the solid guild, and now people want it to be done in exotic gear.

So yes that is exactly what they are asking for, and it is absurd.

No one is asking to make it easier which is what both you and Krall are implying. Content can be done in a challenging way without requiring an additional tier of gear.

If they have the skill set, why the kitten does it matter when they started playing? Why does it bother you that joe schmoe picked up the game 2 weeks ago can raid because he’s just “good.” This kitten should have nothing to do with whether or not you have GEAR, rather whether or not you have SKILL.

SKILL > TIME!!!!

Ugh talk about lack of creativity.

“How do we make it harder George?”
“Uh… give the boss some one shot hits, up his HP, up his defense, and give them a new tier of gear to chase to compensate a tiny bit”

Please people. This kitten is WoW (and every clone since) all over again.

Lemme know when they add another tier above Ascended, than I can believe the bolded statement.

Until than, you are ridiculously overreacting.

Anet CLEARLY stated raids were going to be the endgame ppl were asking about. They said it a while ago in the HoT reveal that this was content made specifically for ENDGAME CHARACTERs.

Not for anyone to create a character and a week later, poof, they can now accomplish everything.

Its an MMORPG. There is grind in every MMORPG.

Deal with it or leave.

The only ppl whining about this are the ones that are hellbent on making sure they don’t have to do ANYTHING to get access to 100% of the content anet decides to create.

News flash, 90% of the things anet has added in this game for the past 3 years required little to no effort to do, to progress, etc etc.

You gonna seriously think they are gonna start making it where everything they add is going to require a grind now??? get kittening real.

You open world pve lovers are getting plenty in HoT.. anet is at least trying to give EVERY type of player what they want…. whether they be casual, hardcore, PvPers , WvWs, etc etc

Stop your bs whining and demanding anet create 100% content that you can access immediately.

The prices have been pretty stable for quite some time and accurately reflect the current state of supply/demand.

What you mean to say is that you want ANet to announce new sources of mats so the prices drop because you don’t want to have to do any work or spend any money for ascended gear.

The prices have been pretty stable. Once word gets around that demand should be going up considerably, that might change. When a new source of demand for something is added, they should always increase supply as well.

And in case you insist on your “you don’t want to spend on Ascended gear” theory, while I don’t have full ascended on my characters at the moment, I do have a huge stockpile of the necessary mats, so the market would not prevent me from doing so and I could actually make a significant profit if I decided to liquidate at the high price. This is not some self-interest thing.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

lordkrall.7241:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I think too many people forget this. Probably because many play the game 40+ hours a week like it is a job.

sigh

So, why not give everyone everything for just simply logging in then?
It is not a job after all, thus everyone should just get everything from the start, right?

Yes Krall, lets give everyone everything and completely negate the entire reason to play what so ever. /sarcasm

Seriously, no one asked for, or even implied, that. Quit shoving words in other people’s mouths because you can’t comprehend the basic point being made.

This is exactly what people are asking for/ They want raids to be doable immediately upon hitting level 80 and getting exotic gear. This takes less than 30 hours of playing the game to get to this point.

Do you honestly think someone who just bought the game 2 weeks ago should be able to complete raids? Because the only thing that separates someone who bought the game 2 weeks ago from someone who bought the game 3 years ago is ascended gear, a solid guild, and experience.

It has already been established that the people in this thread think casual players should be able to beat raids, so there goes the experience part. It has already been said they should be able to pug them, so there goes the solid guild, and now people want it to be done in exotic gear.

So yes that is exactly what they are asking for, and it is absurd.

No one is asking to make it easier which is what both you and Krall are implying. Content can be done in a challenging way without requiring an additional tier of gear.

If they have the skill set, why the kitten does it matter when they started playing? Why does it bother you that joe schmoe picked up the game 2 weeks ago can raid because he’s just “good.” This kitten should have nothing to do with whether or not you have GEAR, rather whether or not you have SKILL.

SKILL > TIME!!!!

Ugh talk about lack of creativity.

“How do we make it harder George?”
“Uh… give the boss some one shot hits, up his HP, up his defense, and give them a new tier of gear to chase to compensate a tiny bit”

Please people. This kitten is WoW (and every clone since) all over again.

Skill > time in a FPS

time >> skill in an MMORPG

You seem to be confused about the genre you are playing. You are playing a character. This character gains power by playing longer. The longer you play the more your character progresses and the stronger he/she becomes. You the person behind the keyboard matters much less than the experience your character has.

This is the basis of all RPG’s.

Lets go back to GW1, they touted Skill > Time
Lets look back prior to GW2 launch, they touted Skill > Time
Take a look at the manifesto, and assorted posts/streams/interviews since where they repeatedly state that the pillars they put forth are still important.
Both Colin and Mo put forth that simply playing was the desired goal, over always ‘preparing to play.’ How the game should be based on your skill, not the gear you’re wearing.

Over the past 3 years that stance has slowly started to morph into the cookie cutter MMO bullkitten because that’s what people know so that’s what people want. So much for holding to their views.

“Lets go back to GW1, they touted Skill > Time”

I suppose we are ignoring the fact that this wasn’t really the case in reality?

Unless there are some new infusions involved in the equation, I can’t even come close to understand the statement.
Having such highly noticeable disparities between classes, both in damage and survivability, it doesn’t make any sense for the ascended stat increase to be so important.

Ohoni.6057:

The prices have been pretty stable for quite some time and accurately reflect the current state of supply/demand.

What you mean to say is that you want ANet to announce new sources of mats so the prices drop because you don’t want to have to do any work or spend any money for ascended gear.

The prices have been pretty stable. Once word gets around that demand should be going up considerably, that might change. When a new source of demand for something is added, they should always increase supply as well.

And in case you insist on your “you don’t want to spend on Ascended gear” theory, while I don’t have full ascended on my characters at the moment, I do have a huge stockpile of the necessary mats, so the market would not prevent me from doing so and I could actually make a significant profit if I decided to liquidate at the high price. This is not some self-interest thing.

My speculation is that prices will initially spike as people will be doing a lot of gear crafting but then will steadily drop as additional mats flow into the market from the expansion areas. I have all my HoT crafting pretty much done. I’ll be keeping an eye on the market and looking for opportunities to make money. I’m hoping Damask prices spike at HoT release, so I can make a quick 1.5K or more off my current stockpile.

irrumatio.4893:

Zeppelin.6832:

Is something with only 2 steps really a gear treadmill?

Consider the following:
50 steps that take 1 day each
2 steps that take 1 month each

Which is shorter?

The length of time it takes to get ascended (or any tier of gear) isn’t really the point. The term “gear treadmill” means that you’re constantly having to get new gear because added PvE content and tiers make the old tiers obsolete. There is no apex, you’re constantly moving.

That’s not the case for GW2. Even with their vertical progression, there most definitely is an apex, and it’s obtainable.

lordkrall.7241:

“Lets go back to GW1, they touted Skill > Time”

I suppose we are ignoring the fact that this wasn’t really the case in reality?

Not sure what game you were playing >.>

Max level 20. Easy to buy top tier gear. Skills were bought, quested for, or captured quite easily.

Your play skill and/or build and group make-up determined how far you could go in the PvE content.

As someone who doesn’t have ascended gear all over, I don’t think this is a problem.

The drops will be increased in raids, so ascended items should be even easier to obtain in the future.

DON’T NERF RAIDS before they are even made. Let them be as is.

Just wanted to post supporting Anet raid team.

SkiTz.4590:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

lordkrall.7241:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I think too many people forget this. Probably because many play the game 40+ hours a week like it is a job.

sigh

So, why not give everyone everything for just simply logging in then?
It is not a job after all, thus everyone should just get everything from the start, right?

Yes Krall, lets give everyone everything and completely negate the entire reason to play what so ever. /sarcasm

Seriously, no one asked for, or even implied, that. Quit shoving words in other people’s mouths because you can’t comprehend the basic point being made.

This is exactly what people are asking for/ They want raids to be doable immediately upon hitting level 80 and getting exotic gear. This takes less than 30 hours of playing the game to get to this point.

Do you honestly think someone who just bought the game 2 weeks ago should be able to complete raids? Because the only thing that separates someone who bought the game 2 weeks ago from someone who bought the game 3 years ago is ascended gear, a solid guild, and experience.

It has already been established that the people in this thread think casual players should be able to beat raids, so there goes the experience part. It has already been said they should be able to pug them, so there goes the solid guild, and now people want it to be done in exotic gear.

So yes that is exactly what they are asking for, and it is absurd.

No one is asking to make it easier which is what both you and Krall are implying. Content can be done in a challenging way without requiring an additional tier of gear.

If they have the skill set, why the kitten does it matter when they started playing? Why does it bother you that joe schmoe picked up the game 2 weeks ago can raid because he’s just “good.” This kitten should have nothing to do with whether or not you have GEAR, rather whether or not you have SKILL.

SKILL > TIME!!!!

Ugh talk about lack of creativity.

“How do we make it harder George?”
“Uh… give the boss some one shot hits, up his HP, up his defense, and give them a new tier of gear to chase to compensate a tiny bit”

Please people. This kitten is WoW (and every clone since) all over again.

Lemme know when they add another tier above Ascended, than I can believe the bolded statement.

Until than, you are ridiculously overreacting.

Anet CLEARLY stated raids were going to be the endgame ppl were asking about. They said it a while ago in the HoT reveal that this was content made specifically for ENDGAME CHARACTERs.

Not for anyone to create a character and a week later, poof, they can now accomplish everything.

Its an MMORPG. There is grind in every MMORPG.

Deal with it or leave.

The only ppl whining about this are the ones that are hellbent on making sure they don’t have to do ANYTHING to get access to 100% of the content anet decides to create.

News flash, 90% of the things anet has added in this game for the past 3 years required little to no effort to do, to progress, etc etc.

You gonna seriously think they are gonna start making it where everything they add is going to require a grind now??? get kittening real.

You open world pve lovers are getting plenty in HoT.. anet is at least trying to give EVERY type of player what they want…. whether they be casual, hardcore, PvPers , WvWs, etc etc

Stop your bs whining and demanding anet create 100% content that you can access immediately.

They have, to a limited extent, told us that there won’t be a tier above ascended. So long as they hold to that stance and don’t change it, as they have their other views over the past 3 years.

However, the point is that the top tier of gear was exotic. Ascended came after, and we were told time and again that it wasn’t necessary for anything except fractals. Now, lo and behold, it looks like it might be required for raiding as well. So much for those assurances that it wasn’t necessary for anything except fractals.

Yes raids are one end game, but they could be that without the ascended requirement. Because now that supposedly optional gear is again being forced in our faces. So much for being optional right? How long before they simply balance the expansions as a whole around ascended armor? Still optional right?

I don’t mind grind. I’m well aware that it’s a necessary component of any MMO. That’s not the point here.

Oh, and just so you know. I HAVE ASCENDED GEAR. Technically speaking, I could be right there in line with the rest of you when the wings open. So assume some more.

lordkrall.7241:

“Lets go back to GW1, they touted Skill > Time”

I suppose we are ignoring the fact that this wasn’t really the case in reality?

Must be you played a different GW1 than I did then. Because I recall quite clearly being able to achieve (certain) things much more quickly than many of my guild mates because I was simply better at doing them. Yes, certain titles required a time grind, but not all.