Guild Wars 2

With this logic, you’d think people would be demanding to be able to pull off raids in white gear.

They’re balancing what’s supposed to be the most challenging content in the game around the absolute highest obtainable mechanical power in the game. If they did not do so then the balance of that content would be off from day 1.

You don’t NEED ascended, just like you don’t NEED exotics to do HoT open world stuff. However, the content is designed around that tier of gear. It would be irresponsible from a design standpoint to say “this is your challenging end game content” and simultaneously release it with an untested 5% mechanical margin of error that automatically impacts its intended challenge, possibly trivializing the content on the day of release

I don’t mind raids being hard content. but i do not like the fact that they are saying you need full ascended gear for the final boss.. even if its only recommended.
They said back then that you could do it with exotic armor and that ascended armor would remain needed for fractals…. o well i’ll have to start leveling my medium armor crafting then.

Even if they balance around ascended gear, the twitter post still makes no sense to me.

phys.7689:

Bandit.8279:

Calcifire.1864:

ProtoGunner.4953:

Ascended gear is out an eternity, if you don’t have single character with ascended gear you’re doing it wrong. Raiding won’t be your thing then anyways, the game has lots of other stuff to offer.

there are reasons for not having ascended gear, for example:

I have a necro, mesmer, engi and ele.

I plan on maining Rev exclusively when HoT is released.

guess what ascended armor and crafting profession I DON’T have?

I’m just praying that the early bosses will be doable in just ascended accessories, the cost for making ascended armor in a timely manner is just stupid, 12g (or 300 scraps of silk) for a bolt of damask, and I need 25 >_>.

You have several weeks before the first wing is released and it was stated partial mix of ascended/exotic will be fine for skilled players. So you should already have the trinkets ready or can get them ready in time for any new alts.

Then we have who knows how much time until the raid wings that actually are recommended to have full ascended get released. Meaning you have tons of time to prepare.

Not only that but if you’ve been doing high level fractals, SW farming, guild missions and World Boss runs then you should also have a few ascended boxes and trinkets laying around in your bank. You can also get ascended items from achievements and collections.

If you haven’t been doing end game PvE content on a consistent basis then why do you think you should be given a free pass for the harder end game content? Self-entitled gamers!

We all have plenty of time to prepare people. Stop with the excuses and whining and get to work!

lol your funny. ascended boxes are random drop. You could be playing for massive amounts of hours and never see one drop. Back when i was grinding fairly hardcore in the game, like 6+ hours a day on average for months, i saw one single ascended weapons box.
a person with a normal/healthy play per dsy 1-3 hours would probably never see one.

I also find it odd you consider world bosses and silverwastes endgame play, or good preparation for raiding.

I mostly do pvp/fractals/teq while waiting for HoT (among other random things) and I get ascended boxes from all 3 of those every now and then and I’m certainly not the luckiest person in the world. It’s really all about how you spend your limited gaming hours or your gold.

I already have several ascended armour sets and weapons among random pieces of asc gear and I’m still sitting on top of some 7-8 unopened asc armor boxes. Some pieces are crafted or from achievements but most are from fractals. And the cool thing about fractals is that you can do several of them a day and have more chances to get ascended gear (I usually do lvl 50 and 40 or lvl 49 and 38).

EDIT: actually lower levels might be better for ascended gear while higher levels are better for fractal skins

Windsagio.1340:

I wouldn’t be so mad, scribethemad, the designer basically retracted the comment.

If ou look closely, they actually didn’t do anything of that sort. Remember, that they said the same (“stongly suggested”, not “required”) about masteries, but they also said finishing the fight without them will be practically impossible.

Cyninja.2954:

Let’s see:

Arenanet add raids to the game wich are supposed to be challenging group content while at the same time changing the system to a soft (maybe hard) trinity and people are supprised over:

- the max level of gear being required. What part of challenging content was missed?

The one wher your success should depend on your skill, not gear. Numerical difficulty stops being difficult once you gear up for it.

Cyninja.2954:

Having raids be balanced around exotics would mean ascended items make them easier than intended

Only if it’s the numbers, not skills, that will form a base for the difficulty.

Cyninja.2954:

- more restrictiv group compositions. That’s what trinity does, it automatically adds barriers and requirements as far as class and group composition goes, on TOP of gear and specialisation

Yeah, that too is not difficulty. That’s just (as you have yourself said), “barriers and requirements”.

Cyninja.2954:

- masteries being required. This was highly likely to happen anyway. I’m sure there will be some synergy between masteries and raid accessibility. It makes sense in artificially extending the game

Again, not difficulty, just a grind barrier for entry.

Cyninja.2954:

I guess the best bet is to wait and see how hard raids actually are. If they indeed are as hard as promissed, expect all the mentioned points to come true.

Again, none of that points are part of any actual difficulty, they all are just a grind barrier before entry. You know, the “preparing to have fun” category that Anet once said they wanted to avoid.

PopeUrban.2578:

With this logic, you’d think people would be demanding to be able to pull off raids in white gear.

They’re balancing what’s supposed to be the most challenging content in the game around the absolute highest obtainable mechanical power in the game. If they did not do so then the balance of that content would be off from day 1.

You don’t NEED ascended, just like you don’t NEED exotics to do HoT open world stuff. However, the content is designed around that tier of gear. It would be irresponsible from a design standpoint to say “this is your challenging end game content” and simultaneously release it with an untested 5% mechanical margin of error that automatically impacts its intended challenge, possibly trivializing the content on the day of release

Dev saying reccomended level basically means players will definately say must have.

For any difficult content the first thing people will look towards on failure is gear.

What the re wording by isiah said, is im sure one day when people figure out everything some people will probably be able to beat it with less stuff.

Which essentially means highly skilled individuals who are extremely coordinated and know the encounter like the back of their hands, might be able to beat with lesser stats.

Basically ita expected and balanced around ascended.
Stop pretending that because there is a possibility of doing it with less, that people will willingly group with substandard geared people on purpose except in special cases.

And the main thing is you shouldnt have to grind for a month or more after hitting 80 to try a you re first raid. No raid mmo i have ever seen did that.

phys.7689:

And the main thing is you shouldnt have to grind for a month or more after hitting 80 to try a you re first raid. No raid mmo i have ever seen did that.

Except for the biggest raid MMO out there, WoW. Or do you truly want to tell me, people got into motlen core straight off the bat after hitting 60? Or Black Temple straight once they hit 70? There were even attunement quests which took hours to just be allowed to enter. (I could go on, but I guess you get my point)

Also, no one says you can’t give raids a shot in exotics, just that you won’t get that far. No one forces you to wait a month too. You can craft full ascended equipment within minutes.

Cyninja.2954:

phys.7689:

And the main thing is you shouldnt have to grind for a month or more after hitting 80 to try a you re first raid. No raid mmo i have ever seen did that.

Except for the biggest raid MMO out there, WoW. Or do you truly want to tell me, people got into motlen core straight off the bat after hitting 60? Or Black Temple straight once they hit 70? There were even attunement quests which took hours to just be allowed to enter. (I could go on, but I guess you get my point)

Also, no one says you can’t give raids a shot in exotics, just that you won’t get that far. No one forces you to wait a month too. You can craft full ascended equipment within minutes.

minutes? are we playing the same game?

agree about wow..and any other mmo. you need some grind before unlocking/being ready to play endgame.
the matter is gw2 was supposed to be no grind/ no gear check/ no treadmill, not grind before start to play and have fun. Another clue it’s vertical progression

Anet need to realize that if they make content too exclusive, paying people will leave. Because as Wilstar learned to their sorrow, ‘hardcore’ players who play 15h/day don’t pay money. They have too much in-game currency to get anything they want.

If I have to craft 2 sets of heavy ascended gear, I’ll flip. I have my zerker, I’m not opposed to switching stats on it once, but I’ll have to know that will last me a year at least. If Anet’s idea of no gear grind is to build multiple top tier gear sets with different stats, they lost their marbles.

The moment I decide this game needs more time sink than it’s worth, I’m out.

I’m already annoyed how they cheekily removed bunch of content from the game. Events, LS season 1 was a disaster, there’s plenty already I can’t do because it’s simply not in the game. They actually built things and then threw them out? Koodoes. Bring it back, with a 20 dollar tag on it, and I’ll buy it.

Main thing – stop making it so obvious you have no clue what you’re doing with your game, or what your game is like to start with. Stop listening to people too much. Get some direction, nail it down, follow it. Be consistent. At this point I don’t know what to expect from you. If i get ascended with raid stats, you could change raids in a month to require different stats because some people on forums whine about new meta. I honestly don’t want to play the game that changes on a whim.

Cyninja.2954:

phys.7689:

And the main thing is you shouldnt have to grind for a month or more after hitting 80 to try a you re first raid. No raid mmo i have ever seen did that.

Except for the biggest raid MMO out there, WoW. Or do you truly want to tell me, people got into motlen core straight off the bat after hitting 60? Or Black Temple straight once they hit 70? There were even attunement quests which took hours to just be allowed to enter. (I could go on, but I guess you get my point)

Also, no one says you can’t give raids a shot in exotics, just that you won’t get that far. No one forces you to wait a month too. You can craft full ascended equipment within minutes.

using vanilla is not a good example, considering how the devs have gone on record saying “yeah, that was a bad idea, we’re not doing that again”.

you couldn’t enter MC because of the fire resist required, it would be like the new raid requiring 100 AR to survive.

wildstar recently showed what happens when you require attunements: it died after people started having trouble getting into raids

and in recent content in WoW, you CAN enter pretty much straight away (as in, a few HOURS of grinding, not months. hitting 90 in MoP let you go to the timeless isle, which let you get enough gear to ener the first few wings of LFR Siege Of Orgrimmar

I calculated the cost of making ascended gear in “a few minutes”: it came out as costing over 600 gold for light armor. and before you say “well buy gems” at current rates, that puts the cost of ascended gear HIGHER THAN HoT ITSELF.

you actually used the examples that the devs gave of what they wanted to AVOID in GW2

The reason this is a bad approach to raiding in GW2 is simply because gear and the time youve spent grinding crafting are not indicators of skill nor do they have anything at all to do with difficulty. It is an artificial way to make raiding LOOK more difficult than it actually is.

Stat-based System Creates Illusion of Difficulty
In WoW, there is the infamous gear treadmill. As bad as that would be in this game, it serves an important purpose in WoW raiding – it allows fights to be difficult day one and become less so as time goes on.

In GW2, instead of a gear treadmill, we have historically relied on a(n awesome) learning curve system instead. Tequatl/Triple Trouble/Aetherpath/Liadri were difficult at first but as the community and players learned the fights, they became less so.

By introducing enrage timers tightly tuned around ascended stats, they are moving toward the WoW gear dependent model without the necessary treadmill – and actually DIMINISHING the importance of skill and learning.

Encourages Lazy Fight Design
Gear stats should not be that important in this game. They even told us that when they introduced ascended gear, insisting that the increase would be very minimal – which is no longer the case.

Even worse, it encourages bad raid design. It allows the developers to be lazier in designing future boss fights because they know the illusion of difficulty will still be there for the majority of the player base because of the stat gap.

The difficulty should come from fight mechanics, not stat disparities.

Possible Solutions
There are actually a couple of solutions that would address this. One would be to make ascended gear MUCH easier to get. A better solution – imo – would be to narrow the stat gap between ascended/legendary and exotic gear to a miniscule amount (2-5 percent total difference). This would take the emphasis off of the gear grind and put it back onto the fight mechanics where it belongs.

TLDR –
relying on stats to provide the illusion of difficulty is just that – an illusion – it sets up unnecessary barriers for friends wanting to raid together and it encourages lazy fight design.

Important note – I write this having multiple (6+) full sets of ascended gear in my bags. This has little impact on my personal ability to raid. However, I know many highly skilled players who, for whatever reason, do not (most common is that they do not enjoy crafting). They may have, at best, one set – but what happens when we need to theory craft and we need someone with tankier or more support based stats?

I will need those people (those FRIENDS) to fill out raid groups when the content drops. An arbitrary gear grind shouldnt diminish our ability to raid.

1. You dont need full ascended. Full ascended is recommended only for final bosses of final wing which will not even be available straight away.

2. They specifically stated on twitch and youtube that you will get ascended via doing the lower wings which do not require it to complete them. So obtaining more ascended prior to that final wing is guaranteed via the path of raid progression.

3. This is a progression raid, not a dungeon. You do not zone in and expect to finish in 15 minutes to 1 hour and be done with it like the tower of nightmares or a mini dungeon in LS. You go boss by boss, phase by phase, it may take you many weeks to complete it, hence many chances to get more guaranteed ascended prior to final wing where it is recommended as they are on weekly lockouts.

4. If you skimp on ascended for whatever reasons you can optimize. Obviously weapons take priority regardless if crafted, gotten via drops or whatever, while you can leave armor behind and let it fill itself out. If you can’t figure this out then this content is too complicated for you and you shouldn’t be attempting it.

5. Rings, trinkets, amulets, are extremely easy to get, its really right down stupid just how easy. Backpieces a bit more difficult but they have lowest stats and hence lowest stat difference, not worth the effort for the most part stat wise except for AR for upper fractals.

6. This is high end content meant for either higher skilled that grasp these concepts and / or experienced players. New players will not have the experience to complete the content in the 1st place, and by the time they get the experience they will have a good build ready, gear included and the experienced portion of the team will be well ahead of them thus bringing up the teamwide totals bar.

the possible solution?
there’s only one: make ascended much much easier/quick to acquire..and in the future stop gating content behind timesinks/grind/gear/exp.
let people play…and show skill in combat.
if it’s my first login or 1500hrs, should be the same.
make something HARDER and make it require timing/coordination/etc…

THIS would make gw2 really different than other titles.
this would reflect the reason many of us bought gw2 instead of any other mmo.

but obviously it won’t happen.

Tongku.5326:

2. They specifically stated on twitch and youtube that you will get ascended via doing the lower wings which do not require it to complete them. So obtaining more ascended prior to that final wing is guaranteed via the path of raid progression.

wouldn’t it be nice if they clarified that here instead of VoDs that are impossible to search through unless a transcript is given?

all they need to say is “the first wing will be beatable in full exotics” and everything will be fixed, no grinding of materials or gold will be required, no grinding of fractals will be required.

to progress in raids, all you have to do is raid. that is what most of the detractors want, to raid instead of grind.

Its a Raid it mean it will be be hard and require best gear/food/build/ to have any change at all to beat it AKA not for casuals.

Killface.1896:

Its a Raid it mean it will be be hard and require best gear/food/build/ to have any change at all to beat it AKA not for casuals.

Stop equating casual to bad. Casual player != unskilled player.

Killface.1896:

Its a Raid it mean it will be be hard and require best gear/food/build/ to have any change at all to beat it AKA not for casuals.

yes…it’s exactly what happens in any mmo in the market..and what is gonna happen in gw2. and what s like in fractals: grind to have best gear, build, etc to have a chance to access endgame.

Tongku.5326:

1. You dont need full ascended. Full ascended is recommended only for final bosses of final wing which will not even be available straight away.

2. They specifically stated on twitch and youtube that you will get ascended via doing the lower wings which do not require it to complete them. So obtaining more ascended prior to that final wing is guaranteed via the path of raid progression.

3. This is a progression raid, not a dungeon. You do not zone in and expect to finish in 15 minutes to 1 hour and be done with it like the tower of nightmares or a mini dungeon in LS. You go boss by boss, phase by phase, it may take you many weeks to complete it, hence many chances to get more guaranteed ascended prior to final wing where it is recommended as they are on weekly lockouts.

4. If you skimp on ascended for whatever reasons you can optimize. Obviously weapons take priority regardless if crafted, gotten via drops or whatever, while you can leave armor behind and let it fill itself out. If you can’t figure this out then this content is too complicated for you and you shouldn’t be attempting it.

5. Rings, trinkets, amulets, are extremely easy to get, its really right down stupid just how easy. Backpieces a bit more difficult but they have lowest stats and hence lowest stat difference, not worth the effort for the most part stat wise except for AR for upper fractals.

6. This is high end content meant for either higher skilled that grasp these concepts and / or experienced players. New players will not have the experience to complete the content in the 1st place, and by the time they get the experience they will have a good build ready, gear included and the experienced portion of the team will be well ahead of them thus bringing up the teamwide totals bar.

Read my freaking sig.

There is one good side to this though, since game will go full F2P soon, i wont have to pay for expansion if i ever decide to check out anything GW2 again.

MikaHR.1978:

Tongku.5326:

1. You dont need full ascended. Full ascended is recommended only for final bosses of final wing which will not even be available straight away.

2. They specifically stated on twitch and youtube that you will get ascended via doing the lower wings which do not require it to complete them. So obtaining more ascended prior to that final wing is guaranteed via the path of raid progression.

3. This is a progression raid, not a dungeon. You do not zone in and expect to finish in 15 minutes to 1 hour and be done with it like the tower of nightmares or a mini dungeon in LS. You go boss by boss, phase by phase, it may take you many weeks to complete it, hence many chances to get more guaranteed ascended prior to final wing where it is recommended as they are on weekly lockouts.

4. If you skimp on ascended for whatever reasons you can optimize. Obviously weapons take priority regardless if crafted, gotten via drops or whatever, while you can leave armor behind and let it fill itself out. If you can’t figure this out then this content is too complicated for you and you shouldn’t be attempting it.

5. Rings, trinkets, amulets, are extremely easy to get, its really right down stupid just how easy. Backpieces a bit more difficult but they have lowest stats and hence lowest stat difference, not worth the effort for the most part stat wise except for AR for upper fractals.

6. This is high end content meant for either higher skilled that grasp these concepts and / or experienced players. New players will not have the experience to complete the content in the 1st place, and by the time they get the experience they will have a good build ready, gear included and the experienced portion of the team will be well ahead of them thus bringing up the teamwide totals bar.

Read my freaking sig.

Old PR line said before release.

@lanfear: i know your pain…
but in mmos casual IS noob/unskilled.
there s no mmo which values skill over grind/gear/numbers..and gw2 is the same.
mmorpg (especially pve part) are about time and grind…no fair challenge.

I hoped gw2 might be different, but I waa wrong…
what irritates me is anet/some players continuing to affirmate that gw2 is casual friendly, everything for everyonre..and stuff like that.

the fact there is LESS gated content THAN other mmos doesn t mean there is not progression/treadmill AT ALL.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

MikaHR.1978:

Tongku.5326:

1. You dont need full ascended. Full ascended is recommended only for final bosses of final wing which will not even be available straight away.

2. They specifically stated on twitch and youtube that you will get ascended via doing the lower wings which do not require it to complete them. So obtaining more ascended prior to that final wing is guaranteed via the path of raid progression.

3. This is a progression raid, not a dungeon. You do not zone in and expect to finish in 15 minutes to 1 hour and be done with it like the tower of nightmares or a mini dungeon in LS. You go boss by boss, phase by phase, it may take you many weeks to complete it, hence many chances to get more guaranteed ascended prior to final wing where it is recommended as they are on weekly lockouts.

4. If you skimp on ascended for whatever reasons you can optimize. Obviously weapons take priority regardless if crafted, gotten via drops or whatever, while you can leave armor behind and let it fill itself out. If you can’t figure this out then this content is too complicated for you and you shouldn’t be attempting it.

5. Rings, trinkets, amulets, are extremely easy to get, its really right down stupid just how easy. Backpieces a bit more difficult but they have lowest stats and hence lowest stat difference, not worth the effort for the most part stat wise except for AR for upper fractals.

6. This is high end content meant for either higher skilled that grasp these concepts and / or experienced players. New players will not have the experience to complete the content in the 1st place, and by the time they get the experience they will have a good build ready, gear included and the experienced portion of the team will be well ahead of them thus bringing up the teamwide totals bar.

Read my freaking sig.

Old PR line said before release.

Its what made GW2 successful.

Now, adopting practices like a game that is hanging on a thread to be shut down….priceless

MikaHR.1978:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

MikaHR.1978:

Tongku.5326:

1. You dont need full ascended. Full ascended is recommended only for final bosses of final wing which will not even be available straight away.

2. They specifically stated on twitch and youtube that you will get ascended via doing the lower wings which do not require it to complete them. So obtaining more ascended prior to that final wing is guaranteed via the path of raid progression.

3. This is a progression raid, not a dungeon. You do not zone in and expect to finish in 15 minutes to 1 hour and be done with it like the tower of nightmares or a mini dungeon in LS. You go boss by boss, phase by phase, it may take you many weeks to complete it, hence many chances to get more guaranteed ascended prior to final wing where it is recommended as they are on weekly lockouts.

4. If you skimp on ascended for whatever reasons you can optimize. Obviously weapons take priority regardless if crafted, gotten via drops or whatever, while you can leave armor behind and let it fill itself out. If you can’t figure this out then this content is too complicated for you and you shouldn’t be attempting it.

5. Rings, trinkets, amulets, are extremely easy to get, its really right down stupid just how easy. Backpieces a bit more difficult but they have lowest stats and hence lowest stat difference, not worth the effort for the most part stat wise except for AR for upper fractals.

6. This is high end content meant for either higher skilled that grasp these concepts and / or experienced players. New players will not have the experience to complete the content in the 1st place, and by the time they get the experience they will have a good build ready, gear included and the experienced portion of the team will be well ahead of them thus bringing up the teamwide totals bar.

Read my freaking sig.

Old PR line said before release.

Its what made GW2 successful.

Now, adopting practices like a game that is hanging on a thread to be shut down….priceless

Gross exaggeration.

Kevan.8912:

@lanfear: i know your pain…
but in mmos casual IS noob/unskilled.
there s no mmo which values skill over grind/gear/numbers..and gw2 is the same.
mmorpg (especially pve part) are about time and grind…no fair challenge.

I hoped gw2 might be different, but I waa wrong…
what irritates me is anet/some players continuing to affirmate that gw2 is casual friendly, everything for everyonre..and stuff like that.

the fact there is LESS gated content THAN other mmos doesn t mean there is not progression/treadmill AT ALL.

Once upon a time, sure mmo ‘casuals’ where bad. However, that has changed as the years have progressed. Casual no longer immediately equates to bad/unskilled/whatever, just like Hardcore doesn’t necessarily equate to good either.

We seriously need to move beyond the stereotypes, they aren’t healthy. Its like holding to the stereotype that because someone is black, they are guaranteed to rob you, they are thug, etc. Sure, it might still be true in some cases, but not the majority.

They told us that casuals couldn’t complete UW back in the day either. Back when GW1 was still ‘young.’ Guess what, we still did.

They could have done this and it would have been about skill and everyone who is level 80 would have access to Raids and would see if they were “skillful” enough.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Raid-Gear-Suggestion/first#post5453002

Let me get this straight ArenaNet: We the players “should” grind time-gated Ascended Gear in order to do raids to acquire Legendary gear that has the same stats as the ascended gear we crafted? And you’re still trying to sell us raids as based on skill? What’s skillful about “strongly suggesting” the highest stat gear? If you really wanted it to be about skillful play, make all of us wear green gear, and tune the difficulty to ascended. At least that way it wouldn’t be gated content.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Once upon a time, sure mmo ‘casuals’ where bad. However, that has changed as the years have progressed. Casual no longer immediately equates to bad/unskilled/whatever, just like Hardcore doesn’t necessarily equate to good either.

We seriously need to move beyond the stereotypes, they aren’t healthy. Its like holding to the stereotype that because someone is black, they are guaranteed to rob you, they are thug, etc. Sure, it might still be true in some cases, but not the majority.

They told us that casuals couldn’t complete UW back in the day either. Back when GW1 was still ‘young.’ Guess what, we still did.

I have no stereotypes, I’m just describing what is the modern market like.
MMO are oriented to a audience which values TIME and effort much more than player’s skill. (maybe MOBAs or FPS are a bit different in that, bt mmo’s it’s all the same thing, everywhere)
I hope that in the future things will turn another direction…but atm MMO = time, grind, vertical progression.

The time you spend ingame will not increase your player’s skill, but just your character’s stats (gear, and so on.)
If you don’t play enough hours/month to earn your access to the endgame, you won’t have the right skills-builds-stats-gear-mastery-attunement-paragon etc to be competitive with the other players…
So, if you’re not bad, everything makes you BAD, meaning that your char will always be worse than any other char with same skilled player (and in most cases, you will be much much worse than players with high stats but no playing skills. because gear makes a huge difference. see: agony resistance)
and then, whether you’re skilled or not, it doesn’t matter.

What I love to underline here is that…gw2 is not so different than other games.
maybe a bit different, but not so innovative.
Vertical progression/ content which must be unlocked/ gear to be obtained.
A typical mmorpg.

PS: once again…if masteries represented just a wider choice of skills on which you can create a build, THAT is horizontal progression.
If masteries are REQUIRED to access something, such as raids (which are the endgame, so supposed to be “better” as droprates, reward and so on) or parts of the map, THAT is vertical progression.

Ascended gear and raids: the question is not whether it’s possibile or not to close a raid with/without ascendeds.
skill or gear, there is not any common point. It’s an evident dicotomy- everybody should wear the same gear, if we want to talk about skill.

Kevan.8912:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Once upon a time, sure mmo ‘casuals’ where bad. However, that has changed as the years have progressed. Casual no longer immediately equates to bad/unskilled/whatever, just like Hardcore doesn’t necessarily equate to good either.

We seriously need to move beyond the stereotypes, they aren’t healthy. Its like holding to the stereotype that because someone is black, they are guaranteed to rob you, they are thug, etc. Sure, it might still be true in some cases, but not the majority.

They told us that casuals couldn’t complete UW back in the day either. Back when GW1 was still ‘young.’ Guess what, we still did.

I have no stereotypes, I’m just describing what is the modern market like.
MMO are oriented to a audience which values TIME and effort much more than player’s skill. (maybe MOBAs or FPS are a bit different in that, bt mmo’s it’s all the same thing, everywhere)
I hope that in the future things will turn another direction…but atm MMO = time, grind, vertical progression.

If you don’t play enough hours/month to earn your access to the endgame, you won’t have the right skills-builds-stats-gear-mastery-attunement-paragon etc to be competitive with the other players…
and that whether you’re skilled or not, it doesn’t matter.
The time you spend ingame will not (mainly) increase your player’s skill, but just your character’s stats (gear, and so on.)

What I love to underline here is that…gw2 is not so different than other games.
maybe a bit different, but not so innovative.
Vertical progression/ content which must be unlocked/ gear to be obtained.
A typical mmorpg.

Which, sadly, is not how it was supposed to be. Not what it was sold as. Yes, there will always be a time factor to some extent, since the object of an MMO is to keep you playing, but that wasn’t supposed to be the determining factor as it is with other MMOs. Unfortunately, the ‘typical mmo’ is exactly what GW2 is becoming.

Cyninja.2954:

Nike.2631:

Sykper.6583:

Do they really have these encounters so tightly tuned?

Yes.

…Because at one point they thought dungeons would be challenging content too.

They were, the first 30 days after launch.

Indeed. Raids will probably be very hard, for a month or so. Then people are farming it in exotics…

Just look at dungeons, pretty difficult early on. Now there are people soloing them in rares. Or Tequatl, impossible to kill in the beginning, people are farming it now.

And then 10 people will make a YouTube vid doing it naked.

Iguana Patio.7132:

I worry that elitists will demand FULL ASCENDED ARMOR when in reality the benefit of adding ascended armor (to someone with ascended weapon and trinkets) is <2% damage output.

Source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/159ml1oahEyM6zWQ-oD4XQcHsk1mI5G6tVnjk_FOeinA/edit?pli=1#gid=348011649

Why do you care what elitists will demand?
Is the fraction of a possibility of getting to sit at “the cool kids table” really all that important?

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Cyninja.2954:

Nike.2631:

Sykper.6583:

Do they really have these encounters so tightly tuned?

Yes.

…Because at one point they thought dungeons would be challenging content too.

They were, the first 30 days after launch.

Indeed. Raids will probably be very hard, for a month or so. Then people are farming it in exotics…

Just look at dungeons, pretty difficult early on. Now there are people soloing them in rares. Or Tequatl, impossible to kill in the beginning, people are farming it now.

Both dungeons and teq were nerfed several times – and for the same reason. Not enough people were doing them.
Guess what’s going to happen with those “hard and challenging”raids in the future…

Fine by me, want to do the hardest content in-game? Bring the best gear you possibly can.

Calcifire.1864:

Cyninja.2954:

phys.7689:

And the main thing is you shouldnt have to grind for a month or more after hitting 80 to try a you re first raid. No raid mmo i have ever seen did that.

Except for the biggest raid MMO out there, WoW. Or do you truly want to tell me, people got into motlen core straight off the bat after hitting 60? Or Black Temple straight once they hit 70? There were even attunement quests which took hours to just be allowed to enter. (I could go on, but I guess you get my point)

Also, no one says you can’t give raids a shot in exotics, just that you won’t get that far. No one forces you to wait a month too. You can craft full ascended equipment within minutes.

using vanilla is not a good example, considering how the devs have gone on record saying “yeah, that was a bad idea, we’re not doing that again”.

you couldn’t enter MC because of the fire resist required, it would be like the new raid requiring 100 AR to survive.

wildstar recently showed what happens when you require attunements: it died after people started having trouble getting into raids

and in recent content in WoW, you CAN enter pretty much straight away (as in, a few HOURS of grinding, not months. hitting 90 in MoP let you go to the timeless isle, which let you get enough gear to ener the first few wings of LFR Siege Of Orgrimmar

I calculated the cost of making ascended gear in “a few minutes”: it came out as costing over 600 gold for light armor. and before you say “well buy gems” at current rates, that puts the cost of ascended gear HIGHER THAN HoT ITSELF.

you actually used the examples that the devs gave of what they wanted to AVOID in GW2

If you consider LFG raids in WoW a good example of people diving stright into raiding, please leave the disscussion. LFG raids are theme parks so casual players can have a look at content which took a lot of time to create, nothing more.

There is still a significant gear up period for WoW raids which is a red line through all difficulties. Especially if you aren’t getting taken along for the ride from fully geared guild members.

Kevan.8912:

minutes? are we playing the same game?

agree about wow..and any other mmo. you need some grind before unlocking/being ready to play endgame.
the matter is gw2 was supposed to be no grind/ no gear check/ no treadmill, not grind before start to play and have fun. Another clue it’s vertical progression

Sure, the actual act of crafting the gear takes not that long. There is people out there complaining about timegated crafting components, which all can be bought on the TP.

Finaly we are talking about a 3 year old game. I’ve seen people who have started GW2 1-2 months ago sporting full ascended gear. Does it * that arenanet moved away from their core idea of “no grind for max gear required”? Sure. But they did so with addition of ascended equipment 2 years ago.

People scream at anet all the time for:

- “zerker meta” beacuse the game is to easy
- no endgame content
- no challenging group content
- more guild content
- etc.

Once they implement or try to implement said content, people suddenly start whining about the opposite.

Astralporing.1957:

Both dungeons and teq were nerfed several times – and for the same reason. Not enough people were doing them.
Guess what’s going to happen with those “hard and challenging”raids in the future…

Agreed, and then once everything has reverted back to people wearing “zerker gear” we will have the same * come out of the woodwork demanding for alternative gear choices being viable in a game design and combat system that simply asks for maximum damage.

Blaeys.3102:

TLDR –
relying on stats to provide the illusion of difficulty is just that – an illusion – it sets up unnecessary barriers for friends wanting to raid together and it encourages lazy fight design.

Important note – I write this having multiple (6+) full sets of ascended gear in my bags. This has little impact on my personal ability to raid. However, I know many highly skilled players who, for whatever reason, do not (most common is that they do not enjoy crafting). They may have, at best, one set – but what happens when we need to theory craft and we need someone with tankier or more support based stats?

I will need those people (those FRIENDS) to fill out raid groups when the content drops. An arbitrary gear grind shouldnt diminish our ability to raid.

That´s your friends personal problem. They should adapt, gear up, form their own parties with you as leader because you have the necessary stats and so are bestest(not only the best, but bestest!) by default, or get out. People will gladly take their salvageable stuff when they leave because they lack the backbone of commiting time and ressources into ascended gear.

Sounds harsh, elitist and unfair to you? Welcome in the world of the casual gamer with RL responsibilities or lacking the will to make GW2 more than a way to spend time with, friend.^^

Nike.2631:

They’re increasing the spread between Exotic and Ascended stats to 10% with HoT. Anyone who thought “Challenging Content” meant it would be designed so you can do it comfortably while missing the top 10% of available effectiveness was fooling themselves.

didn’t they retract from this increase after the lash out from the “casual” community ?

making it a requirement to have assendd gear/celestial would not be fair to all players because not everyone has kitten armor , it sextremly expensive and takes long to gather, and would not be fair that a small percentage of the gaming community can do raids where a larger portions can not enjoy raiding

latinkuro.7304:

Nike.2631:

They’re increasing the spread between Exotic and Ascended stats to 10% with HoT. Anyone who thought “Challenging Content” meant it would be designed so you can do it comfortably while missing the top 10% of available effectiveness was fooling themselves.

didn’t they retract from this increase after the lash out from the “casual” community ?

It was never planned.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Ascended-Gear-Anet-please-fix-this/first#post5173842

SNIEVES.3964:

making it a requirement to have assendd gear/celestial would not be fair to all players because not everyone has kitten armor , it sextremly expensive and takes long to gather, and would not be fair that a small percentage of the gaming community can do raids where a larger portions can not enjoy raiding

It is not, at least not in my opinion, fair. Of course that does not stop other players from demanding it to be that way.

Even before this whole thing with ascended came up, people upright demanded that not everyone should be able to complete the raid. Which better way of excluding people that are not entirely commited to the exclusive content could there be than to make a commitment, aka a grind barrier? Working as intended for the hardcore raiders I guess, mission accomplished by Anet.

SNIEVES.3964:

making it a requirement to have assendd gear/celestial would not be fair to all players because not everyone has kitten armor , it sextremly expensive and takes long to gather, and would not be fair that a small percentage of the gaming community can do raids where a larger portions can not enjoy raiding

Good thing it’s only recommended.

Torolan.5816:

SNIEVES.3964:

making it a requirement to have assendd gear/celestial would not be fair to all players because not everyone has kitten armor , it sextremly expensive and takes long to gather, and would not be fair that a small percentage of the gaming community can do raids where a larger portions can not enjoy raiding

It is not, at least not in my opinion, fair. Of course that does not stop other players from demanding it to be that way.

Even before this whole thing with ascended came up, people upright demanded that not everyone should be able to complete the raid. Which better way of excluding people that are not entirely commited to the exclusive content could there be than to make a commitment, aka a grind barrier? Working as intended for the hardcore raiders I guess, mission accomplished by Anet.

If there is any challenge whatsoever in a video game, it will by its very nature exclude some part of the population through virtue of player ability, free time, or patience.

Queen’s gauntlet excluded a bunch of people. So do dungeons. So do fractals. SO does grinding out the massive pile of stuff required to get silverwastes armor. So do WvW seasonal skins. So the the PvP balthazar pack. So do the world champion finishers.

The only way to be sure that a given piece of content excludes no one is to simply not make them play content in the first place. There are varying levels of exclusion in video games, commonly based on a simply risk/reward metric. Raids are a small part of HoT intended for a portion of the player base that wanted higher risks for higher rewards.

Ayrilana.1396:

latinkuro.7304:

Nike.2631:

They’re increasing the spread between Exotic and Ascended stats to 10% with HoT. Anyone who thought “Challenging Content” meant it would be designed so you can do it comfortably while missing the top 10% of available effectiveness was fooling themselves.

didn’t they retract from this increase after the lash out from the “casual” community ?

It was never planned.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Ascended-Gear-Anet-please-fix-this/first#post5173842

Yes, Colin said that then. Doesn’t mean it won’t change if it’s convenient.

Remember, he said Champ Training in Queensdale was “fine” “people playing the game, which is what we want” once too. Look what happened to that.

Or when he said that everyone should have the best statistical gear by the time they reach 80….

Or when we were told that ascended wouldn’t be necessary for anything beyond Fractals….

shrug

Take it all with a grain of salt, because they’ll change it if it is convenient for them to do so.

Ayrilana.1396:

latinkuro.7304:

Nike.2631:

They’re increasing the spread between Exotic and Ascended stats to 10% with HoT. Anyone who thought “Challenging Content” meant it would be designed so you can do it comfortably while missing the top 10% of available effectiveness was fooling themselves.

didn’t they retract from this increase after the lash out from the “casual” community ?

It was never planned.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Ascended-Gear-Anet-please-fix-this/first#post5173842

oh, it was planned, they simply made it sound like rumors in order to test the waters and the casual community made sure to make a splash and crush it right there and than.

[censored] casuals !

Sadly I have no source for this anymore, near impossible to find the posts now.

PopeUrban.2578:

Torolan.5816:

SNIEVES.3964:

making it a requirement to have assendd gear/celestial would not be fair to all players because not everyone has kitten armor , it sextremly expensive and takes long to gather, and would not be fair that a small percentage of the gaming community can do raids where a larger portions can not enjoy raiding

It is not, at least not in my opinion, fair. Of course that does not stop other players from demanding it to be that way.

Even before this whole thing with ascended came up, people upright demanded that not everyone should be able to complete the raid. Which better way of excluding people that are not entirely commited to the exclusive content could there be than to make a commitment, aka a grind barrier? Working as intended for the hardcore raiders I guess, mission accomplished by Anet.

If there is any challenge whatsoever in a video game, it will by its very nature exclude some part of the population through virtue of player ability, free time, or patience.

Queen’s gauntlet excluded a bunch of people. So do dungeons. So do fractals. SO does grinding out the massive pile of stuff required to get silverwastes armor. So do WvW seasonal skins. So the the PvP balthazar pack. So do the world champion finishers.

The only way to be sure that a given piece of content excludes no one is to simply not make them play content in the first place. There are varying levels of exclusion in video games, commonly based on a simply risk/reward metric. Raids are a small part of HoT intended for a portion of the player base that wanted higher risks for higher rewards.

How is the statement that Raids are intended for a small portion of players negating the opinion that it is unfair by default to exclude all the other players who want higher rewards too but are not good or connected enough to get them? Just because you consider it challenging does not negate it, neither does that other content has barriers of entry too.

This is actually the first time Anet sets their highest rewards behind a really exclusive wall. Every moron can farm his way through low level fractals until he has enough relicts to buy stuff to rise in level and stay competitive with agony. The same with wvw and pvp, if you are willing to eat dirt over and over again because you suck at GW2, you still will get everything Hardcore Hans has too over time.
If you don´t cut it with raids, legendary armor for example stays exclusive and unbuyable, you´re screwed for life or at least have to wait until someone begins to sell raids.

So why are not only skins to obtain from raids? Because the number of players willing to do them then would probably in a really low % range then, and Anet probably does not want their raids to be seen only by a handful of people like Aetherpath before it.

PopeUrban.2578:

The only way to be sure that a given piece of content excludes no one is to simply not make them play content in the first place. There are varying levels of exclusion in video games, commonly based on a simply risk/reward metric. Raids are a small part of HoT intended for a portion of the player base that wanted higher risks for higher rewards.

This makes no sense to me.
The best way not to exclude anyone from a content…is just remove any gear requirement. (and any top tier/ hard to acquire gear, so that anyone has the same gear)
Let anyone try a content, then make it difficult to master so that only if someone is exceptionally skilled reaches the best result.

then, for the love of rewards and so on, let the best players have cosmetic rewards so to show that they’re “the best”: skins, titles, pets, etc.
but JUST COSMETIC upgrades

Sadly, I fear that cosmetic accessories might not be enough to this pro-grinders.

Anet must choose which population should follow: those who want a fair competition and easy gearing or those who desire to grind the best gear to have better stats than the others

Torolan.5816:

PopeUrban.2578:

Torolan.5816:

SNIEVES.3964:

making it a requirement to have assendd gear/celestial would not be fair to all players because not everyone has kitten armor , it sextremly expensive and takes long to gather, and would not be fair that a small percentage of the gaming community can do raids where a larger portions can not enjoy raiding

It is not, at least not in my opinion, fair. Of course that does not stop other players from demanding it to be that way.

Even before this whole thing with ascended came up, people upright demanded that not everyone should be able to complete the raid. Which better way of excluding people that are not entirely commited to the exclusive content could there be than to make a commitment, aka a grind barrier? Working as intended for the hardcore raiders I guess, mission accomplished by Anet.

If there is any challenge whatsoever in a video game, it will by its very nature exclude some part of the population through virtue of player ability, free time, or patience.

Queen’s gauntlet excluded a bunch of people. So do dungeons. So do fractals. SO does grinding out the massive pile of stuff required to get silverwastes armor. So do WvW seasonal skins. So the the PvP balthazar pack. So do the world champion finishers.

The only way to be sure that a given piece of content excludes no one is to simply not make them play content in the first place. There are varying levels of exclusion in video games, commonly based on a simply risk/reward metric. Raids are a small part of HoT intended for a portion of the player base that wanted higher risks for higher rewards.

How is the statement that Raids are intended for a small portion of players negating the opinion that it is unfair by default to exclude all the other players who want higher rewards too but are not good or connected enough to get them? Just because you consider it challenging does not negate it, neither does that other content has barriers of entry too.

This is actually the first time Anet sets their highest rewards behind a really exclusive wall. Every moron can farm his way through low level fractals until he has enough relicts to buy stuff to rise in level and stay competitive with agony. The same with wvw and pvp, if you are willing to eat dirt over and over again because you suck at GW2, you still will get everything Hardcore Hans has too over time.
If you don´t cut it with raids, legendary armor for example stays exclusive and unbuyable, you´re screwed for life or at least have to wait until someone begins to sell raids.

So why are not only skins to obtain from raids? Because the number of players willing to do them then would probably in a really low % range then, and Anet probably does not want their raids to be seen only by a handful of people like Aetherpath before it.

• Fractal weapons
• World Champion Finishers
• Queen’s Gambit

Legendaries are not more powerful than ascended. You don’t have to be hardcore Hans to acquire ascended. You also don’t need Ascended gear to attempt raids.

PopeUrban.2578:

Torolan.5816:

PopeUrban.2578:

Torolan.5816:

SNIEVES.3964:

making it a requirement to have assendd gear/celestial would not be fair to all players because not everyone has kitten armor , it sextremly expensive and takes long to gather, and would not be fair that a small percentage of the gaming community can do raids where a larger portions can not enjoy raiding

It is not, at least not in my opinion, fair. Of course that does not stop other players from demanding it to be that way.

Even before this whole thing with ascended came up, people upright demanded that not everyone should be able to complete the raid. Which better way of excluding people that are not entirely commited to the exclusive content could there be than to make a commitment, aka a grind barrier? Working as intended for the hardcore raiders I guess, mission accomplished by Anet.

If there is any challenge whatsoever in a video game, it will by its very nature exclude some part of the population through virtue of player ability, free time, or patience.

Queen’s gauntlet excluded a bunch of people. So do dungeons. So do fractals. SO does grinding out the massive pile of stuff required to get silverwastes armor. So do WvW seasonal skins. So the the PvP balthazar pack. So do the world champion finishers.

The only way to be sure that a given piece of content excludes no one is to simply not make them play content in the first place. There are varying levels of exclusion in video games, commonly based on a simply risk/reward metric. Raids are a small part of HoT intended for a portion of the player base that wanted higher risks for higher rewards.

How is the statement that Raids are intended for a small portion of players negating the opinion that it is unfair by default to exclude all the other players who want higher rewards too but are not good or connected enough to get them? Just because you consider it challenging does not negate it, neither does that other content has barriers of entry too.

This is actually the first time Anet sets their highest rewards behind a really exclusive wall. Every moron can farm his way through low level fractals until he has enough relicts to buy stuff to rise in level and stay competitive with agony. The same with wvw and pvp, if you are willing to eat dirt over and over again because you suck at GW2, you still will get everything Hardcore Hans has too over time.
If you don´t cut it with raids, legendary armor for example stays exclusive and unbuyable, you´re screwed for life or at least have to wait until someone begins to sell raids.

So why are not only skins to obtain from raids? Because the number of players willing to do them then would probably in a really low % range then, and Anet probably does not want their raids to be seen only by a handful of people like Aetherpath before it.

• Fractal weapons
• World Champion Finishers
• Queen’s Gambit

Legendaries are not more powerful than ascended. You don’t have to be hardcore Hans to acquire ascended. You also don’t need Ascended gear to attempt raids.

*Skin
*Finisher
*Title
yawn, snorkle and dubbdidoo. Nothing is really of any nongloating consequence for the game. I would trade you my fractals skins for legendary armor any day, although i have to admit that this is personal preference of course.

You indeed don´t have to be Hardcore Hans to obtain ascended, I even applaud Anet for anchoring the thought of Ascended is mandatory into the heads of the players as this means that equipment elitism will rule even more than usual and the cycle of neglected content, with the latest being raids, will begin again.

@torolan
If ascended is not mandatory and there’s not any elitism ingame…just make ascended and legendaries SKINS…with the same slots and stats Exotic have.

@pope
and again..we don’t know if raid will be doable with exotics or greens or naked, but still 5 o10% increase is there and it’s a help.
and don’t forget that probabily Raids will need a mastery level to unlock..and that is another kind of locking content behind timesinks.

I just like that people are touting “equipment elitism” in a game that introduced the top tier of gear ever in its first year of release.

I also like that those same people are mad that “better gear” drops in a raid they think they can’t do… because they don’t care about their gear in the first place?

It isn’t the game’s fault that certain people saw that there was more powerful gear in the game and wen “nah, I don’t need that. Not like it’ll make me better at insert whatever activity you do is by 5%.”

It is literally mind boggling that in a game where virtually all of your stats come from gear, the gear is trivial to obtain given a long enough stretch of time, and the primary content is combat that utilized those stats people saw better armor for years and went “I don’t want that”.

It wasn’t like they locked ascended stuff behind a raid, or dungeon, or even doing anything remotely difficult. They literally give you half the set for logging in at this point. How much easier to acquire could it get?

How the heck is this even an issue?

They said you don’t need it so you were like “K, I don’t want it”

How do you not want better gear? How can you not want better gear for years and then suddenly be mad that “better gear” is rewarded by a challenging piece of content?

This method of thinking makes no sense to me. it’s not that you’re wrong or anything. It just… does not compute.

Kevan.8912:

@torolan
If ascended is not mandatory and there’s not any elitism ingame…just make ascended and legendaries SKINS…with the same slots and stats Exotic have.

You probably guessed it, I am not that big of a fan of raids. I have ascended armor because i had nothing better to do then and it bugged me somehow to stay on exotc if another tier of gear was there. But if Anet decides tomorrow that there is only one suit fits all build and equipment for a given class, I would be ok with that because it is one of the few ways to really separate skill from equipment or youtube video learning. And on top of that, I could leave themes like elitism, fairness in games and raids in general behind me. So you´re bashing in open doors with me with that suggestion.^^

Edit:
I have ascended gear on 4 characters, pope. It just bugs me that Anet has the audacity to put a type of gear of the same stats as ascended but with much broader means of use because you can change said stats as you need them behind a content that I not only personally loathe (which is of course a motivation to write here too, I don´t even start to deny that) but also because of my perception of it being poisonous for games for the lack of fairness involved with casual players and the resulting two class society.
As stated above, I woiuld also be ok with a general suit of armor for everyone, but I know that this won´t happen.

Kevan.8912:

@torolan
If ascended is not mandatory and there’s not any elitism ingame…just make ascended and legendaries SKINS…with the same slots and stats Exotic have.

@pope
and again..we don’t know if raid will be doable with exotics or greens or naked, but still 5 o10% increase is there and it’s a help.
and don’t forget that probabily Raids will need a mastery level to unlock..and that is another kind of locking content behind timesinks.

Its more than 5%, its roughly 12% difference because all of them conveniently forget to factor in infusions. 5% is BASE difference.

And this is exactly how it starts, as i mentioned in another thread that was merged in mega thread so noone can make sense of it:

in order to justify spending huge resources on this they will have to jack up rewards constantly to get tiny number of people who actually want to play this to actually play it. This kind of content requires huge amount of resources and is played by tiny minority which also demands to be treated as special snowflakes (as nicely illustrated on these and every other forum)

And while other games are moving away from whole raiding (SWTOR, LOTRO), some failed hard because of it khm…WS…..khm……TSW…..khm….LOTRO……khm….SWTOR….khm….WoW 5+m lost subs… … … GW2 somehow thinks this tiny minority is worth spending huge resources on.

This is realistic view on the matter:

http://www.engadget.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/#comments

and thats in the game that promoted and “encouraged” raiding heavily since launch.

NO raids in LOTRO any more

WS….lol….its results speak for themselves. “hardcore raiding” they boasted….cupcake…..

SWTOR – doesnt make raids any more

WoW – lost 5+m subs in 3 months because theres nothing else to do but gear grind raiding

TSW – endgame hardcore raiding, FC is living on goverment subsidies because noone wants to buy them, otherwise they would go down long time ago

….
….
….